Purim and Diaspora Power— with Barbara Spectre

Summary

Episode Overview

Podcast: Identity/Crisis
Host: Yehuda Kurtzer
Guest: Barbara Lerner Spectre
Episode Title: Purim and Diaspora Power— with Barbara Spectre
Original Release: March 3, 2026

Main Theme:
This episode explores the existential and historical themes found in the Book of Esther (Purim), focusing on conspiracy theories, Jewish identity in diaspora, and the dynamics of vulnerability, agency, and power. Yehuda Kurtzer and Barbara Spectre discuss how these themes play out in both ancient texts and the lived experiences of contemporary Jews, especially those reclaiming their identities in post-Holocaust and post-Soviet Europe.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Purim as a Template for Diaspora Experience

• Conspiracy and Scapegoating:
  • Yehuda opens by highlighting how antisemitism and conspiracy theories operate, using Purim's story as a classic example ([01:10]).

    “Purim is two truths and a lie. Conspiracy theories grip societies and make them mad. Jews are often seen as the people driving this destabilization of the society.” — Yehuda ([06:55])

  • Haman’s accusation is examined as a form of “two truths and a lie”—Jews are different, Jews have unique laws (true); Jews are disloyal (the lie).
• Diaspora Power and Vulnerability:
  • The hosts reflect on how the Purim narrative illustrates the persistent tension between visibility, difference, and safety for Jews living as minorities.

    “That remains the kind of existential condition of the Jew, of either the trusted one or the detested one.” — Yehuda ([15:45])

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2. Existential Readings and Agency in Esther

• Uncertainty as a Call to Action:
  • Barbara Spectre reframes Mordechai’s question to Esther—“Who knows whether you came to royalty for such a time as this?”—not as invoking fate or certainty, but inviting action amid uncertainty ([08:34]).

    “If I think that maybe, just maybe, there might be patterns to this world, then maybe I have to be the one to act as though there is. Let me act as though there's a reason to things.” — Barbara ([09:35])

• Esther as Subjunctive Heroine:
  • Esther functions decisively in an ambiguous, possibly random world. Her actions create the meaningful moment where change and even “hidden” divine intervention become possible ([17:10], [20:08]).

    “I think, therefore, Esther begins to enact what I think is one of the most marvelous court dramas. ... It's the not knowing that allows us to act.” — Barbara ([09:23])

• Court Drama and Gendered Power:
  • Barbara offers a close, literary reading of Esther’s courtly strategies with the king and Haman, interpreting linguistic shifts and subtle manipulations that underpin the dramatic tension in the story ([11:45]-[14:26]).

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3. Reclaiming Jewish Identity in Europe

• Disassimilation and Post-Holocaust Stories:
  • Barbara recounts surprising and often moving stories of European Jews rediscovering and reclaiming their Jewishness after decades (or generations) of suppression ([23:28]):

    “We call that the root canal story. ... A woman finds out she’s Jewish at the dentist... and ends up becoming a remarkable activist.” — Barbara ([24:16])

  • Disassimilation as a Paideia concept, describing the reversal of assimilation processes.
• Community and Learning as Identity Formation:
  • Both speakers emphasize the idea of a Beit Midrash (house of study/learning) as core to modern Jewish identity—especially in diaspora contexts ([29:27], [33:14]).

    “So they declared, among other things, 'We see our home as our community, the Beit Midrash.’ Do you know what a song that is to an educator?” — Barbara ([29:46])

• European Jews as Agents of Purpose:
  • Both discuss Paul Johnson and Yosef Yerushalmi’s ideas on Jews as actors in history who persist out of a “dignity of purpose” ([20:08], [22:30]).

    “If you believe in that, they have become the agents of history because they believed in it so long and so persistently that it's become true.” — Barbara ([20:22])

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4. God, Faith, and Agency After the Holocaust

• The Challenge of Theodicy:
  • Yehuda voices the modern dilemma: how can Jews talk about divine intervention in the wake of the Holocaust? ([26:00])
  • Barbara references Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s answer—“the proof of God is the Jews”—but admits there is more disproof than proof, and the persistence of the Jewish people itself is the greatest exercise of free will and testimony to meaning ([26:38]).

    “If God did display himself in history, we would be deprived of the ability to choose him, to believe in Him. Belief is after all, trust. It's not a rational act. It's one of trust.” — Barbara ([27:50])

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5. Plurality, Diversity, and the Value of Diaspora

• Diaspora as Opportunity:
  • Both speakers challenge the narrative that Diaspora is solely a story of vulnerability. Instead, diaspora provides a chance for proud and meaningful Jewish identities to flourish in pluralistic spaces ([33:32], [34:16]):

    “Actually, Jews can be prideful about being Jewish. ... Maybe there's a kind of idealistic vision for diaspora that's supposed to come out of the end of the story.” — Yehuda ([33:55])

  • European Jewish communities—multilingual, multicultural, and intellectually vibrant—are evidence of this pluralistic enrichment ([35:14]-[38:12]).
• European Maturity and Holocaust Memory:
  • Barbara relates a poignant story about Sweden’s prime minister, whose childhood reading about the Holocaust led him to realize that “perpetrators” could be people like his own parents ([41:25]).

    “Now that realization that you could be a perpetrator, not just a victim, we've learned the Holocaust in terms of we're the victims.” — Barbara ([42:10])

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6. Conviction, Responsibility, and Jewish Future

• Moving Beyond Victimhood:
  • Both urge that Jewish destiny is not solely about surviving as victims, but aspiring to “be great and to be better,” owning the responsibilities of agency in history ([42:54]):

    “Don't tell me why things happen. Tell me what I'm supposed to be and what I'm supposed to do.” — Yehuda ([43:19])

• Who Knows? Embracing Uncertainty:
  • The recurring motif: “Who knows?”—embracing uncertainty as both an existential condition and the wellspring for agency.

    “I don't know why I'm here, but here's what I could possibly make happen.” — Yehuda ([44:09])

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Memorable Quotes & Segments with Timestamps

• On Conspiracy and Identity (Purim):
  “Purim is two truths and a lie... The fact that the Jews are blended in with everyone else is scary and dangerous. The fact that we follow our own laws and behaviors is weird and sinister.” — Yehuda ([06:30])
• Existential Uncertainty as Power:
  “It's the not knowing that allows us to act. ... If I thought that maybe, just maybe, there might be patterns to this world, then maybe I have to be the one to act as though there is.” — Barbara ([09:23])
• Esther’s Strategic Agency:
  “She must be planting a bit of suspicion in his mind, because why would she risk her life to invite him to a banquet? But why Haman?... That must have been the first time in his life he's ever heard the third person plural.” — Barbara ([11:50])
• Diaspora Identity Reclamation:
  “We call that the root canal story. ... There's such a remarkable variety of people that are reclaiming their identity.” — Barbara ([24:18])
• On Community and the Beit Midrash:
  “We see our home as our community, the Beit Midrash. Do you know what a song that is to an educator?” — Barbara ([29:46])
• Embracing Conviction Over Explanation:
  “Don’t tell me why things happen. Tell me what I'm supposed to be and what I'm supposed to do.” — Yehuda ([43:19])
• Jewish Agency Amid Question:
  “I don't know who’s supposed to do it. I guess it’s supposed to be me. Not I was placed here by God for this purpose... I don't know why I’m here, but here's what I could possibly make happen.” — Yehuda ([44:09])

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Important Timestamps

• [01:10]: Opening reflections on conspiracy theories and antisemitism as central to Purim’s themes.
• [08:17]: Barbara’s introduction and first insights into Esther’s existential drama.
• [11:45]: Discussion of Esther’s court strategy and the turning point in the story.
• [17:10]-[20:08]: Exploration of agency, God’s hiddenness, and meaning in history post-Holocaust.
• [23:28]: Stories of disassimilation and reclaiming Jewish identity in contemporary Europe.
• [29:46]: Paideia’s “Glemster Declaration” and the modern Beit Midrash as the heart of Jewish community.
• [33:32]: Rethinking Purim as a source of hope for diasporic pride and public Jewishness.
• [41:25]: The Swedish Prime Minister’s story about Holocaust memory and the lessons about perpetration vs. victimhood.
• [43:19]: Conclusion — the call to Jewish conviction and action.

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Summary Table

| Topic | Highlight/Quote | Timestamp | |------------------------------------------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|---------------| | Antisemitism as Conspiracy | “Purim is two truths and a lie.” — Yehuda | [06:30] | | Esther’s Existential Agency | “It’s the not knowing that allows us to act.” — Barbara | [09:23] | | Literary Reading of Esther | Discussion of “asiti lahem” and court intrigue | [11:50] | | Reclaiming Jewish Identity (Europe) | “We call that the root canal story.” — Barbara | [24:18] | | Formation of Beit Midrash Community | “We see our home as our community, the Beit Midrash.” — Barbara | [29:46] | | Diaspora as Opportunity, Not Crisis | “Maybe there's a kind of idealistic vision for diaspora...” — Yehuda | [33:55] | | Holocaust and Perpetrator Memory | “I realized those could have been my parents.” — Swedish PM (via Barbara) | [41:25] | | Call to Conviction and Moral Agency | “Tell me what I'm supposed to be and what I'm supposed to do.” — Yehuda | [43:19] |

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Tone and Style

The episode is marked by deep textual analysis, heartfelt personal stories, and broad philosophical reflection. Both speakers blend scholarly rigor with warmth and narrative, making complex ideas accessible and relatable for listeners.

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Concluding Reflection

Kurtzer and Spectre ultimately suggest that Jewish survival and flourishing—past, present, and future—are not merely products of fate, victimhood, or conspiracy, but of conscious, uncertain, yet persistent agency. Both challenge listeners to see themselves as active creators of meaning, community, and purpose, whether in diaspora or in Israel, whether as hidden Esthers or proud Hadassahs.

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For anyone seeking to understand the deeper meanings of Purim, modern Jewish agency, and the ongoing vitality of diaspora life—this episode is a rich, essential listen.

Transcript

[A]

Hi, Identity Crisis listeners. This is Yehuda. I'd love to study with you in Jerusalem this summer. Every summer, our campus hosts the Community Leadership Program, transforming Jerusalem into a gathering place for learners and leaders committed to wrestling with the big questions facing Jewish life today. This summer, you can be part of this experience, learning with me and my wonderful colleagues, joining a community rooted in hope, curiosity and possibility. Join us in Jerusalem from July 1 through 7 for the community Leadership Program. Space is very limited. Visit shalomhartman.org CLP to reserve your spot. Hope to see you there. Hi everyone. Welcome to Identity Crisis, a show from the Shalom Hartman Institute, creating better conversations about the essential issues facing Jewish life. I'm Yehuda Kurtzer. We're recording on Thursday, February 26, 2026. Good conspiracy theories, the kinds that can mesmerize and destabilize societies. They're premised on just enough truth. If you take a kernel of something true, a knowable and observable phenomenon, but instead of looking at the normal causal explanation, you can convince people of a more sinister, more complicated explanation. You can, in doing so, make them feel that there are people guarding the real truth. Powerful, shadowy others keeping this real version of the truth hidden. Conspiracy theories and antisemitism is the most prominent. They operate through two fallacies. The first is that they regularly conflate correlation and causation. You may be observing a real problem. It may seem to align with some other piece of truth, some other observable phenomenon. But it's when you connect the dots between the two truths, you can produce something else entirely. The second fallacy is of attribution, the instinct to attribute bad actions or characteristics to a whole group rather than the individual member of that group. Then it's not, hey, that person is an evildoer. It's hey, that group of people is making evil happen among us. A conspiracy theory lies at the heart of the purib story, a conspiracy that is so shockingly familiar that it feels shocking that the book was written over 2000 years ago. The key line in the conspiracy theory, and maybe the key line in the whole book, although we can debate that, is in the third chapter. Vayomer haman le melech hashverosh yeshno am echad mefuzar u meforad beIN ha' amim vihom denotes malchutech avedatehem shonot mikolam vetatea melechen amosim velamelech ein shovel ahanicham. Haman said to King Achashverosh. There is A certain people scattered and dispersed among the other peoples in all the provinces of your realm, whose laws are different from those of any other people and who do not obey the king's laws. And it is not in your majesty's interest to tolerate them. What happened to make Haman make this argument to the king? What was he raised with animus towards Jews? The only thing Megillah tells us is that Mordechai refused to bow down to him a single Jew. The drama that gives way to his genocidal fantasy is personal, as it almost always is. Conspiracy theories rise in men because of their real or perceived grievances. The most evil of the conspiracy theorists, like Haman, deliberately metastasized the behavior of one person into a toxic description of all people who share characteristics with that person. The path here is from personal insult to conspiratorial mapping to genocide. In this verse, Haman starts by offering a description of the Jews that many of us would recognize. It's beautiful and suggestive and captures some of the very paradoxes of Jewish peoplehood that some of us love about peoplehood. There is a certain people, a particular people, am echad. But unlike most people, Haman suggests they're not tied or tethered to their land. They don't think of their belonging as rooted in geography or proximity to one another. Rather, they're scattered and dispersed among the rest of the people. By the way, this is true. The Jews invented this idea of diaspora, which literally means the scattering of seed. That idea was born partly out of trauma, the violence of exile, partly, but partly out of wanderlust. And its majesty is that unlike many ancient peoples who, upon separating from their native lands and wandering elsewhere, became at one with the locals, the Jews somehow maintained their status as the Jewish people. We change the meaning of Judean from the people living in Judea to the people who were once from Judea, and to eventually the people who still feel connected to other people who were once from Judea, even though neither they nor we will ever live in Judea. We became Jews, and Haman notices what's wrong with us. So far, nothing. Jews would agree with Haman. Yes, we live dispersed among the nations where we play nicely with others. We blend in, we learn the language, we pay taxes. Yes, we remain part of our home nation, our amechad. But what's it to you? By the way, the same goes for the next line. Also true. Their laws are different from other people's. Well, yeah. Jewish behaviors and diaspora have long insisted that we practice our faith differently than others. Much of the time our neighbors agreed. Sometimes they found us antisocial. Often they thought we were strange. Sometimes, for most of Jewish history, we were tolerated. But yes, our laws are different. The only way that this becomes dark is with a final comment Haman makes before telling the King that it's not in his interest to care for the Jews, he says, and they do not follow the King's laws. It's two truths and a lie. And this is the amazing lie. It's belied by the previous line that the Jews are blended in with the whole society. It's also belied overwhelmingly by the experience of Diaspora Jews who have been overwhelmingly good citizens of our societies. It's belied by the Megillah itself. It's true Mordechai would not bow to the King's vizier. But Mordechai is part of the King's court himself. The same evidence of his disobedience tells us of his prominence. Nevertheless, this is what works now with this lie. The fact that the Jews are blended in with everyone else is scary and dangerous. The fact that we follow our own laws and behaviors is weird and sinister. What are those Jews doing behind closed doors? What do we need to do to burrow them out? Deborah Lipstadt argues that the difference between classical antisemitism and classical racism is that racism tries to close the door against the other. Antisemitism is rooted in the belief that the Jew is already in the house and needs to be exposed. Purim is two truths and a lie. Conspiracy theories grip societies and make them mad. Jews are often seen as the people driving this destabilization of the society. God will always intervene to save the Jews. Two truths and a lie in advance of Jewish holidays, I like to discuss them with great Torah scholars. And I'm really excited today to meet for the first time and to talk about Purim with a fellow Purim lover. Barbara Lerner Spector is the founding director of paideia, the Institute for Advanced Jewish Studies in Sweden, which I've never been to, but feels like a place where I should probably hang out more. She was formerly on the faculty of the Hartman Institute in Jerusalem. She was among the founder of the Seminary of Judaic Studies in Jerusalem. Her area of research is in models of inference in Christian and Jewish post Holocaust theology. She has written a book called Theology of Doubt in Hebrew, which I want to talk about. She wrote together with Noam Tzion at Hartman, a two volume book on Hanukkah. She has received a number of very prestigious prizes, but perhaps most Prominently the King's Medal for her outstanding contribution to Jewish culture in Sweden and beyond. So, Barbara, thank you for coming on the podcast today. It's wonderful to meet you. I understand that you are, like me, a fellow lover of Purim. And. And by the way, I can tell you that that makes us unusual. There's a lot of Jews who don't know Purim, who find it strange, who find it dangerous, and for all sorts of reasons, toxic, which we can talk about. But as fellow lovers of Purim, what is it that you actually love about Purim?

[B]

Actually, I don't like the stamping of the feet. I don't like the noise. Truth, me not. But I think it's a very existentially laden book. I love the way it metastasizes in the opposite way in which you said. In other words, it goes from the conspiracy against people and it metastasized to an individual and what she does and how that affects the coloring of what will happen in the future. I love that. And I love the fact that for me, this seems like such a existentially contemporary book in the sense that we don't know why things happen. Mordecai says that to Esther in a very poignant question that I know you like, because I've heard you quoted, and that is umiyodeo. Who knows why you got to this place in the courtyard of the King? Who knows? He's asking her. And I've heard you interpret it and say, revachum u rahatzala yavomei makoma. And if not you, we'll make it through. There's other forces at work. I don't read it that way. I read it in a way that says maybe, just maybe, Esther, take a chance that not everything happens by chance. I mean, we're offered two alternatives here in the book. Not only in the book, in general, when we ask ourselves, why do things happen? Are things random? You know, is this all. All just an accident of molecules and who knows what? Or is there really some sort of plan? And I don't think we know, really. And how do we act in a world where we don't know? I think it's the not knowing that allows us to act. I mean, let's say we thought everything was random, right? Why do anything? Let me just sit back and enjoy the absurdity of the world. On the other hand, if I thought that everything was determined, I too, it takes away all agency for me. But if I think that maybe, just maybe, there might be patterns to this world, then Maybe I have to be the one to act as though there is. Let me act as though there's a reason to things. And I think, therefore, Esther begins to enact what I think is one of the most marvelous court dramas. I mean, it's epic because, well, let me reveal to you, I think it's a very sexual book. Yeah, of course, I think, you know, we're told that first, you know, does Vashti appear the whole banquet naked? Possibly. Does he vanish, then her? Although he takes Esther into his court, he doesn't see her for 30 days. Well, I guess the romance has gone out of things. And then she knows that she can only see him if she breaks the rules. No one's supposed to come to the court unless they're summoned, and she doesn't. And he sees her think about what he's thinking in his mind. There's a wonderful stage direction. She's at the other end. He sees her at the entrance, and there he is. And whatever electricity there had been before, now he must be thinking, if we want to imagine what he's thinking. She's risking her life to come to see me. I mean, I must really be something, right? And so he hands out to her this golden scepter. Okay, we won't go into the imagery of it. And he says, what do you want, Esther? What did you risk your life to do? And she answers with the grammar of royalty. What is the grammar of royalty? You only answer a person of royalty in the third person singular. Let the king and Haman come to the banquet that I have prepared for him. Correct grammar. Correct. On the other hand, she must be planting a bit of suspicion in his mind, because why would she risk her life to invite him to a banquet? But why Haman? Okay, he goes along with it. They both come, and then comes the second banquet. And I've never seen a whole plot turn on one word. He says at the banquet, esther, what is your pleasure? Why did you until half the kingdom? I'll give it to you. And she says, well, let the king and Haman come to the banquet that I have prepared. Bong, an explosive word for them. Now, that must have been the first Asher of Siti Lahem instead of Lo. That must have been the first time in his life he's ever heard the third person plural.

[A]

And you think he would be threatened

[B]

by that, if I think so. I think, first of all, I think Haman would feel fantastic, which he does. It says that he goes out and he thinks, you know, his ego's been boosted And I think Achashver was thinking, wait a minute. I mean, the first time in his life he's heard the word lahem for them. And what does he do that night? He takes out the book of recordings for history. And what is he looking for? Now, let's go back to the plot at the very beginning. Remember when Mordechai was in the court and he heard about a plot against the king and he told it and it was recorded. Now, if Achashverosh is thinking that there's a royal conspiracy against him, and after all, it's classic. It's the queen with the.

[A]

With the vizier.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, the vizier. So who can I trust? Who can I trust? He's looking for that one name, and they're reading out for him. And just when they read out the name Mordecai, what happens? Haman, whose ego had been boosted to the extent that he goes against the advice of his wife, right. Who told him go in the morning to ask the king to kill Mordechai? And he goes at night. Why would he go at night? Who gave him that extra confidence?

[A]

You think that was Esther?

[B]

That one word? Yeah, that one word. Asher asiti lehem. I think it's a fantastic court drama.

[A]

I love that.

[B]

I think it's epic. I think it's masterful. It's masterful literature.

[A]

Before I go on, I never thought about the question that you've surfaced, which is, why do they take out that book to read? What is he scared of? What has he become concerned about? And what that illuminates about the book is that the whole question that Haman raises is about who can you trust?

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And the answer that he says to the king is, look, these people are basically not trustworthy. And that Esther manipulates the story to actually say, actually, oh, who's trustworthy? It was actually Mordechai and it is actually Esther, because Esther is the one who is risking herself for me ultimately. And then the king's ultimate conclusion is, if the fundamental question of the monarchy is who can I trust, I ultimately decide to trust Mordechai and Esther. Entrust them with the leadership, and the story, you know, gets reversed. But by the way, the bad taste it leaves in our mouth is that remains the kind of existential condition of the Jew, of either the trusted one or the detested one.

[B]

Or the detested one. Nice. So we're still in the story.

[A]

Exactly. So it worked then. And are we supposed to think on the basis of the story that it works or that Only if you are a Mordechai and an Esther are you capable of making it work.

[B]

Well, let me ask a prior question. Where's the hidden God in all this? Where's the answer to that question? Do things happen by purpose or randomly? Let me answer that by asking you a question. Why is it? What brings it about that at the very moment that finds out that the only person he can trust is Mordecai, at just that moment, Haman appears and says he wants him to hang Mordechai? What does the king know now that he didn't know before that for sure? It's Haman that's betraying him. He's the one that can't be trusted and the only one that can be, that's for sure. But why at that moment, what causes that? I would venture that it's once Esther activates, becomes active and takes a chance, that it's not all by chance, it's no longer chanceful. God in that second appears in that meaningful moment. She makes him appear, she demands of him that thing. It's like the story with Joseph when the brothers appear before him and are afraid because of what they've done to him. He says, it's not you that did this, it's God brought me here. Although God never appears to Joseph. I mean, those are two existential figures that I think are so wonderful for us because it's sort of like a playbook for why we have to act in a world that could be so random. We have to act as though there is meaning. By the way, it takes me to

[A]

European Jews, but we'll come to European Jews in a moment. But no, I appreciate that your thesis is that Esther is a subjunctive character. She lives as though, as if, as you know, I want to live in the world in which it is possible. Or it could be that God intervenes and then in this version of the story, you then can identify, as you said, a couple of like moments that can only be explained through either extreme coincidence or faith. Right? And therefore it becomes a way of saying, if you step forward, right? And this is so critical to the covenant. If you do this, if you step into the vulnerability of the divine human relationship, I will emerge on the other end. Now my problem with that is, first of all, rabbinic tradition is rightly skeptical of it. Yes, of course, there's a wonderful passage of Talmud in which the rabbis first start saying, look, after the temple was destroyed, prophecy was taken for prophets and given to sages, which is very self serving, right? But they ultimately Conclude actually, prophecy doesn't really exist in our world anymore. They're too scared of the monopolization of divine will, that they don't want it. And so they ask the question, well, how is it then the case that, you know, Rabbi Akiva, for instance, will say, a piece of learning. And it turns out it was said generations earlier by a previous scholar. How could that be if it's not prophecy? It's too powerful of a coincidence. And the answer that they provide is it is like a blind man stumbling in a house and discovering the window, meaning he doesn't know where to look, but he ultimately gets there. And that's another way to read this story, which is, it's not like you step into the world and then God intervenes. It's that you step into the world and you can make your own future. And that's how I actually read the sexual parts of the story also, like, look, what all the things you have to do in order to change the condition of the vulnerable Jew in Diaspora. You got to be behind the scenes, you got to have political relationships. You have to be willing to do things that are terrible that you'd be unwilling to do. You have to take terrible risks. And sometimes, like in the Purim story, it gets rewarded. And actually in a lot of Jewish history, it didn't. So we kind of find ourselves at, like a choice. Do I want this to be a story about the possibility of faith, or do I want this to be a story about the recognition of the impossibility of faith?

[B]

I think I want this to be a story about a consciousness that Yerushalmi brings forward in Zachor. In other words, that were people that somehow believes that there is a meaning to all of this. That, by the way, you know who I think paraphrases Yerushalmi in a wonderful way is a non Jewish historian, Paul Johnson, who says, you know, he takes a look and he says, you know, is there meaning in history? There's never been a people that's believed more that humanity has the dignity of purpose and that they as a people are agents and that purposefulness. And he says, so is it true or not? And he writes a whole book and at the end of it, he says, well, actually, we don't really know. He said, but on the other hand, if you believe in that, they have become the agents of history because they believed in it so long and so persistently that it's become true, that it's become their truth. And by the way, that's what I feel too now, to get to European jewelry, I mean, these people who have such a deep historic consciousness that's tied to their own country, by the way, a type of consciousness as Jews, that's lacking to us. I mean, I'm lacking all that European history. And they're so such a deep historical Jewish identity. They're tied to the history of their place. But in coming forward in what we call disassimilating something that took place after the fall of the wall in 89 and then the creation of the EU and so forth, in all these recovered identities, which is a phenomena that took place in Europe, you can only step back and look at history and say, wow. I mean, I've been astounded by it. And I thought that I had a good Jewish consciousness. This has just overwhelmed me to see people coming forward and sort of insisting not only in being a part of the history and the historiography sense that the Rushalmi talks about, but history in the Jewish sense. I'm part of this meaningful pattern somehow, without becoming too deterministic. In fact, just the opposite. I've sort of got to make this meaningful. And their lack of certainty, they're sort of. I mean, there's this been explosion of energy because they're not certain. They have to determine the future.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Do you understand? It's the lack of certainty that I think makes, as you said, makes this a subjective story.

[A]

So it's interesting because Esther is a recovered identity. Right. We know at the beginning of the story, Hadassahi Esther.

[B]

Wonderful.

[A]

She has a Jewish name, but she has a hidden name. Her name literally means hidden. And it's only, as you said, at that critical moment in the story when Mordechai says to her, im haarish, hakarish ebeit hazot. If you are silent in this moment, salvation will come to the Jews from some other quarter and you will be forgotten. Right. You will be destroyed. And perhaps, who knows whether it is for this purpose. And something about maybe the very uncertainty itself is what triggers her to act. And then ultimately she becomes exposed as a proud Jew. That's the story. As she emerges on the other end of the story as a proud Jew.

[B]

Right. She disassimilates, as we say in Paideia language.

[A]

Disassimilates. It's an incredible word. I've never heard it before.

[B]

Yeah, it's the Paideia word that we've. Because it's been the phenomena, by the way, throughout, you know, after the fall of the Wall, at the beginning of the century. I love the Stories. There's a boy playing a water polo in Hungary, and he calls his opponent a dirty Jew. And his parents hear about and they drive him back home and they say, listen, you know, you can't do that anymore. You know, we're now in contemporary Europe. And besides that, you are one. Or we call it the root canal story. A woman in Belgrade in Serbia who goes to the dentist and the dentist says, listen, you know, there's a synagogue opening up a little. Do you want to go? And she says, well, why would I want to go to a synagogue? And she says, he said, because your name is Levi. She says, what does that mean? Anyway, they go back and they realize that now deceased father in law indeed had been Jewish. And so she ends up at the synagogue and her daughter ends up at Paideia. Becomes a remarkable activist. Anyway, we call that the root Cannes of finding Judaism. I mean, there's such a remarkable variety of people that are reclaiming their identity. By the way, to get back to Esther for a minute, when Mordechai says to her, take a chance, Omiodea, her chance is, is she's risking her life. There's a law against appearing at the court if you're unsummoned. And she appears, by the way, if I were her, I would rewrite it, you know, I would think she would fast for three days. She's dispatched, and she'd be very thin and she'd appear sort of pale and so forth, but she does, and she gets dressed in her splendor. I mean, she wants to arouse him, obviously.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, I love the story. I love the story. I don't like the.

[A]

You don't like the stamping of the feet?

[B]

No, no, I don't. Okay.

[A]

What you're describing, actually about European Jews, which is a really interesting lens. I see it in America these days also. It's very reminiscent of Lazar and then Arendt's idea of the conscious pariah. A kind of re embrace of this notion of, okay, fine, I'm other. But at a certain point, to be a conscious pariah without any pursuit of meaning to that identity is the losing proposition. Like, okay, you're a dirty Jew. You embrace that. What does that leave you? It just leaves you feeling worse about yourself. It only becomes a value if then that person is like, okay, I guess I'm that. And now I want to go and look for what I can find that involves real meaning in my life. And I suppose that's why people come to you, to learn to actually start to understand what they're trying to do.

[B]

They do.

[A]

Let me change the subject a little bit, which is, I don't know, I feel it's very hard to give God too much credit for stepping in, especially as a post Holocaust Jew. How do I read the story of divine intervention? And I know you've written about this. How do I make sense of that being the possible ending of the story when for so many Jews the great betrayal that they experienced of the 20th century was a much worse version of the Purim story in which God remain silent? How do I continue to talk about that as a possibility in a post Holocaust world?

[B]

Oh, look, the question, of course, you know, where was God during the Holocaust? Has haunted us as it's haunted Jews throughout history. You know, there's been so many calamities and disasters. All I can say is that I don't want to go into the deep theological possibilities. I do think if there is a testimony to God now I'm going to go to a non Jewish theologian, Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Before he was, by the way, a Nazi, he was part of the plot against Hitler and before he was executed, that was in 45, just months before the end of the war. You know, he was asked, do you have a proof of God? And he said, yes, the Jews, you know, the persistence of the Jews. In other words, maybe we're the greatest testimony. And by the way, I'm not, you know, is there proof of God? No. Is there a lot of disproof? Absolutely. Is there meaning in history? But we've again our insistence that nevertheless, I mean, that's, I think perhaps the greatest exercise of the power of free will. Let's put it this way, if God did display himself in history, we would be deprived of the ability to choose him, to believe in Him. Belief is after all, trust. It's not a rational act. It's one of trust. And we trust that somehow and again, even if it doesn't take theological form, that nevertheless if we act in history, that somehow purposefulness will be found. We're worthy, as it were, that insistence without bringing the divine presence per se into it. So we become the proof text. We don't need a proof text. And I've been so inspired by witnessing what European Jews have done, taking this away from the belief. Not only do they come forward, by the way, this is such a Hartman way of coming from what's their identity formation? They come forward. They come forward as adults, by the way, you know, this is what happened. And so how do you form like Paideia was Mandated by the Swedish government to form an institute to reclaim Jewish culture in Europe. Wow, that's rather daunting. How do you do that? Well, you know, being a Hartman person. So, you know, I just brought the wisdom that there's such a strong form of identity formation is to be a part of the interpretive text community. In other words, that that's an identity formation. You're adding your own self into the text. The text becomes alive through your partner, by the way, obviously, I mean, we know the dynamic of what takes place.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I had something called the Glemster Declaration that a bunch of PAIDEA graduates formulated after about 10, 15 years, that Paideia was formed and they declared who they were as European Jews. And they said, among other things, we see our home as our community, the Beit Midrash. Do you know what a song that is to an educator? See yours. I mean, it's unreal. That's how they understand their identity. And by the way, to see the durability of that community, even though can only be sometimes episodic, it's not necessarily done in numbers, as we know. I mean, we still have an emaciated. I mean, that's the view. You know, we have this old view of Europe as being somehow an emaciated Judaism, you know, that it's. You know, we're left with the Bialik, you know, city of slaughter, you know, these emasculated beings. There's no robust life there. But they came forward and that image has changed so completely. European jewelries have become so robust. And can I say something right now, as in Israeli.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Who knows, if not for this moment, European Jewry has become astoundingly robust. Because right now we have how many 200,000 Israelis in Europe?

[A]

Yeah. Growing number here, too. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And they don't come with very sophisticated Jewish identities. Let me put it in the sense that other than being obviously tied to the land, which is in itself a very strong identity, I'm not denying that. But outside of their water, what sustains them? And here there is a Jewry that has reclaimed itself, by the way, also basically secular in form. In other words, it isn't religion that's strong, but as Europeans, by the way, virtue of being part of your culture, in Europe, you're literate in your culture, you can't be a Frenchman without knowing Moliere. You can't be a Spaniard without having read Cervantes. Not only read it, it's part of who you are. And so it was so easy to say to People who came forward and say, you know, we're searching for our Jewish identity. And you say, okay, look, here's our literature. And not only the literature, the way it's acquired, the way it's studied, you become part of that interpretive community. So they've recovered their identities and they're there waiting for the Israelis. And by the way, which are now flooding the schools, as you know. I mean, it's a whole phenomenon, maybe for just this moment, a European Jewry as well.

[A]

Yeah. I appreciate what you said about your students forming that vision of community premised on Abit Midrash. And it reminds me of so often in our work. You know, we convene ad hoc batemidrash, you know, I Beit Midrash at the core of the Hartman Institute Jerusalem. And so many of our long term programs involve people coming and dwelling there. But a lot of our work here in North America has been about creating ad hoc batemidras in boardrooms and in other spaces and in synagogues where people come together for deep learning, engagement across difference triangulated by a text in chavruta. Right. And people love this. And we often get this language of like, okay, well, that learning was great, but what do I do next? Or I did that, but now I'm back to real life. And I, I feel desperate to say to them, I think this was embedded in what you were saying. Don't you realize you stepped into an ideal framework of what Jewish life could be? That the values that are expressed when we encounter text and another human being and moral aspiration and a commitment to try to be an excellent people, that all of those things are not activities that we engage with, but an imaginary exercise of what Judaism could be.

[B]

Oh, wonderful.

[A]

And what would happen if we made that kind of mind shift? And there is something, Barbara, very diasporic about this. It is different. You're right to say it's very, very diasporic.

[B]

It is.

[A]

And I wonder whether, just going back to Esther, if I can, for a second.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

This is very illuminating. I've always understood the story as like, okay, the Jews got off this time, but who knows what's gonna happen any other time? But maybe, maybe there's a different optimism at the end of the book which says, actually the multicultural assimilation of Jews into the Persian Empire is possible.

[B]

Oh, that's so lovely. Right, right.

[A]

Actually, Jews can be prideful about being Jewish. They can kind of come out of the closet in terms of their own identities. They don't have to be Esther anymore. They can be Hadassah, or they could be Esther, it's okay too. But now they can be out in public. And maybe there's a kind of idealistic vision for diaspora that's supposed to come out of the end of the story.

[B]

By the way, you're sort of speaking Dufnov now, aren't you? In other words, we have a diasporic nationality. It could be worse by far, by the way. And there's so much texture that's been added too, because of the diasporic, because of the European experience. I mean, among other things, when I say texture of the Kavuta, something that I hadn't been aware of. But when you bring people together from so many different countries as Paideia does, you realize that the more different you are from your Havruta partner, the richer the text becomes. You know, one person again will bring the Cervantes, someone else will bring Moliere. And bringing those texts to bring your full culture to it just makes the text explosive in richness. I mean, there's such a texture now that it adds to it. And being in Europe too, I've become so appreciative of the three European voices that are just embedded in this continent. Obviously, the Mitnak Dim found the face of God on the page of the Talmud, or the Hasidud, which saw creativity and joy. But which I'm closest to of all is that third European voice, the one, the post Enlightenment figures who believed in all their heart that by Judaism being on the highest intellectual level, in conversation with European thinkers, that we would both become enriched. You know, there wouldn't be the Mendelssohn without Leibniz, and without Mendelssohn, there wouldn't be a less. And I mean, it's just astounding how much enrichment took place. And it produced the Bubers and it produced the, by the way, someone who changed my life. And that is, I know I bring Hartman to Paidea, but I also bring someone else. I bring Hugo Bergman, you know, sort of like one of the remarkable personalities of that third European intellectual voice who believed in the conversation of cultures that we would all become enriched. By the way, one of the reasons I use the word Paideia, to not use the European word, because despite all the qualifications about how other cultures can threaten us, it doesn't have to enrich us as they showed. But Hugo Brigham and I came as a graduate student to the Hebrew University. And by the way, I'll just give you. I don't know if you want to include this, a personal story, but I came I was in analytic philosophy. I was a graduate student in the United States, and I came for a year of study to Hebrew University, my husband and I, and I took a course in Kant with Hugo Bergman, who was then in his 80s. You understood. He heard that I was dealing with Wittgenstein and so forth. So he asked me to give a lecture on Wittgenstein. Now you realize that Wittgenstein, this is a course in Kant. And you understand if you know one of Wittgenstein's agendas, among other things, things to realize how much of a mistake metaphysics is making. Do you know? But he couldn't stop learning. And afterwards, as a result, he invited my husband and I to a weekly study group that he had together with Ernst Simon and others. I mean, remarkable, the humility of him to continue the learning. It changed my life. It changed my life. I changed out of, you know, this snobbish. At that time there was a distinction between. Between analytic and continental philosophy. I mean, thankfully, a lot of that is broken down. But sometimes I feel and I talk about him because it isn't just that I owe him. I was just among the privileged to be among the last to know personally that third European voice. And it so enriches and it's so fortifying to know that Judaism can exist on the highest. Yeah, there can be an identity through ideas as well as an identity through text.

[A]

You know, it sounds like in your treatment of Europe today, it sounds like what you're doing is inviting us, apropos our story, to consider the possibility of two coexisting stories as opposed to understanding them as like the telos of each other. The two coexisting stories are, yes, yes, the anti Semitism, which is a big story of Europe too.

[B]

And it is without a doubt.

[A]

And there is this story of the decision to flourish. And it's interesting because the Zionist answer in some ways is to be like, look, that antisemitism persists. You have no choice but to abandon the European project and reject all of that and stop trying to make post Enlightenment Judaism happen, stop embracing the multicultural European project. It's failed. And what you're basically saying is, I'm not denying that that's there. I'm just telling you that I refuse to give up on the parallel project. I refuse to allow the ways that others want to make me other from taking me away from what I can contribute to the alternative project, what I want to build. And by the way, there are plenty of other people there who also feel that the Closing of our world is something that they refuse to let happen on their watch. It sounds like that's at the crux of the project.

[B]

Yeah, fair. Yeah, fair you put it. Can I say something, though, about the European project? First of all, I don't think the idea of the post Enlightenment project failed. History failed the idea. It isn't that the idea failed. And these Europeans, I think they have an advantage on us today. You know why? They're not surprised. We in the west are so surprised. We're so shocked by what's changed taking place. They have a maturity. They know that history can go wrong. They've seen it go wrong. And again, Umiyo dea. Who knows, maybe for just this moment. By the way, this Lempstad declaration, I should send it to you. Hudo, you have to read it. It's just astounding. But there's something else they bring to it as well as Europeans. I found this out when I was interviewing a personality who was just pivotal in the whole story of Paik Deyou, the then prime Minister of Sweden. Joran persia, who in 1997 heard the story goes. He heard that there was a survey on the radio that the Stockholm University took place about how much high school students knew about the Holocaust. It turns out they knew nothing. The next day he went in front of Parliament and he said, we have to do something about this. I went to interview him and I said, you know, that's the story. Is that really the story? But what he said, well, it's true, but it's not true enough. He said, what really made me feel that I must do something is that when I grew up in a small village and we had no books in our house, we only had the Bible. But When I was 8 years old, my father let me go to the library and there was an old man there, by the way, I keep on thinking this man is an unsung hero of Jewish history. And he began to give me books. He gave me books about the Holocaust. And I read about the Holocaust. He said, and now listen to what he said. He said, and I realized. I looked at those Nazis and I realized those could have been my parents. He said, they looked like my parents, they worked like my parents, they worshiped like my parents. Now that realization that you could be a perpetrator, not just a victim, we've learned the Holocaust in terms of we're the victims. And Yehuda, I think about that so often now. I think about, without getting into Israeli politics, how right now in Israel we have sort of Refused to hear the story of how we could be the cause of suffering. We're so entrenched in being the victims. Do you understand what I'm saying?

[A]

I do.

[B]

And I'm thinking, oh, we've missed something in Holocaust education that many Europeans have, because can you imagine, he said, I was nine years old when that took place. Can you imagine a nine year old child realizing that his parents could have been the perpetrators? And then he finished it off and said, I determine anyone can be a perpetrator and that that can't happen. It's so astounding. I mean, the European story is so. It's gone so terribly wrong that there are conclusions that can be reached.

[A]

Barbara, you've basically addressed my opening of the conspiracy theories of two truths and a lie are repudiated in your reading by no truths but conviction. That's ultimately what we're looking for, right? I mean, who knows? Who knows what conviction? Who knows what God's role is in the world? Who knows why certain things happen? I don't want to engage in that question. David Hartman was a strong believer in this. Essential to his writings, right? The theology of description versus theology of response. Don't tell me why things happen. Tell me what I'm supposed to be and what I'm supposed to do. And in that sense, apropos your last comment about Israel, how do we reawaken the sense that it's not just not about being victims, it's also about the aspiration to be great and to be better and to notice when we are sitting in the positions, the opportunities that we have, whether it's in a royal court or whether it's running a Jewish organization in Sweden or wherever it is. To say, I don't know who's supposed to do it. I guess it's supposed to be me, right? Not I was placed here by God for this purpose, which is narcissistic. It's more like, I don't know. I don't know why I'm here, but here's what I could possibly make happen. Barbara, thanks so much for being on our show today. Thank you.

[B]

It's been such a pleasure speaking with you, Yehuda. I really am a great admirer and chag poem. Same.

[C]

Here are some other things that are happening at the Shalom Hartman Institute this past Monday morning, Danielle Hartman joined journalist and Hartman board member Abby Pogrebin for an important conversation about the war with Iran and the implications for Israel and the region. Watch a recording at the link in the show. Notes applications for the fifth cohort of the Hartman Teen Fellowship are now open. One current fellow said the following about the Participating in the Hartman Teen Fellowship this year exposed me to the biggest Jewish peer group I've ever been a part of, not to mention the most interested, excited to learn, and knowledgeable Jewish teens I've ever met. To apply or send the application to a teen you know, click on the link in the Show Notes or visit our website. On Thursday, March 12, the Hartman Institute will be hosting a virtual Day of Learning entitled in the Face of Cruelty, Jewish Responsibility to Neighbors and Strangers. Join us for five sessions with Hartman Scholars, including a live Identity Crisis recording and sessions with Aaron Dorfman and Dalia Lithwick to illuminate how our tradition strengthens our response to this moment of profound moral urgency. We will explore how Jewish ethics, human dignity, and our responsibilities to one another guide us in responding to today's crisis. Find out more about the Day of Learning at the link in the show notes.

[D]

Thanks for listening to our show and special thanks to our guest Barbara Spector. Identity Crisis is produced by me, Tessa Zitter and our executive producer is Mital Friedman. This episode was researched by Gabrielle Feinstone and edited by Josh Allen with music provided by so called transcripts of our show are now available on our website. Typically a week after an episode airs, we're always looking for ideas for what we should cover in future episodes. So if you have a topic you'd like to hear about or if you have comments about this episode, please please write to [e-mail] for more ideas from the Shalom Hartman Institute about what's unfolding right now. Sign up for our newsletter in the show Notes and subscribe to this podcast everywhere podcasts are available. See you next time and thanks for listening.

[A]

In today's endless news cycle, it's harder than ever to understand what's really happening in Israel. That's why I Recommend Israel Policy Forum's podcast, Israel PolicyPod. Israel PolicyPod goes in depth on what actually matters when it comes to the Israeli Palestinian conflict and U S Israel relations, Israeli politics and wider Middle east developments. It's hosted by Tel Aviv based journalist Neri Zilber, who's great at cutting through the noise to explain what's driving events on the ground. Neri breaks down current affairs with people who deal in substance, not slogans, top Israeli journalists, former US Diplomats, Palestinian political experts and regional analysts. If you really care about Israel's future as a secure Jewish and democratic state, Israel Policy Pod is a must Listen, you can find Israel Policy Pod wherever you get your podcasts.