← Identity/Crisis
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Foreign.
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Welcome to Identity Crisis, a show from the Shalom Hartman Institute, creating better conversations about the essential issues facing Jewish life. I'm Yehuda Kurtzer. We're recording this introduction on Thursday, May 14, 2026. Maybe this is just me getting older and recognizing more of my own limitations, but I find increasingly that in the business of Jewish leadership, the the best we can do is try as hard as we can for a long time on behalf of our people. Sometimes we can claim small victories and sometimes we can move the ball down the field, and that's amidst mistakes we'll inevitably make and the setbacks along the way, often because of circumstances bigger than ourselves that we can't control. But it's hard to ever declare victory. It's especially difficult to declare victory when it comes to fighting hate, the most resilient and creative enemy we face. If you're in that business, you succeed only on the days it doesn't win, and you'll never be able to declare that you've defeated it entirely. History and people are too big and too complicated for any shallow declaration of success. And still all of that work is noble. And those that labor nobly on behalf of our people, especially those who devote their whole lives to it, those people are to be celebrated despite any failures and mistakes they might make along the way. Abe Foxman passed away this week. Foxman was a titan of Jewish leadership, an indefatigable, bold, opinionated, passionate leader who elevated the standing of the ADL in its quixotic attempt to fight antisemitism for over three decades. His legacy was complicated, but I think it's hard to say that he was. He spoke his mind unapologetically, and there's something to that, especially when it comes from sincere people who have clear value systems and who ultimately respect their interlocutors. I was reminded this week, thinking about Abe of blessed memory and the end of an era of Jewish leadership, of a short description of the Jewish communal establishment that was written by John Wucher, also of blessed memory, back in 2005. The American Jewish civil religion is an institutional ideology that functioned effectively to buttress the position and claims of the polity that sponsored it. It unified Jews across denominational and organizational boundaries. It legitimated the activities of the institutions of the polity itself, and it mobilized Jews to give and to work on behalf of the purposes defined by that polity. There's much more to say there, but Abe Foxman was a true leader in this version of American Jewish civil religion. That religion is weakening for sure. Some of that weakening is probably to be celebrated. Some of it is lamented and some just is about the passage of time. But Foxman himself, for all of his contributions, I think deserves our gratitude in his memory. We're re releasing this week my conversation with him from last year. I found it moving and prophetic at the time. I actually wish more people in charge today would listen to some of his wisdom. May his memory be a blessing. I'm joined today by Abe Foxman, a Jewish leader who is as close to a household name that we have in our national Jewish community. Abe Foxman served as the head of the Anti Defamation League, the ADL, for nearly 30 years until he stepped down in 2015. During that time, he grew the organization considerably and positioned the ADL as the kind of chief public information organization nationally on anti Semitism and as a kind of public arbiter of the Jewish community's views on antisemitism. He himself is a child survivor of the Shoah, and his leadership, I found, always reflected both his own personal narrative, but also a broad sense of responsibility for communal and shared concerns. In recent months, he's also become outspoken about the Trump administration, especially most recently on Holocaust Remembrance Day. And that stance has set him apart from some other Jewish institutional leaders who have been, let's say, far more circumspect in how they engage with and criticize the president. Thanks for coming on the show today, Abe. And I thought I would start just by asking you to paint a little bit of picture of what you think has gone wrong in this rise of antisemitism. I think obviously throughout your tenure at the adl, you were chronicling and documenting and talking about antisemitism as an ever present force. But it does feel like we're in a different conversation today in 2025 than we were in the 80s and 90s. And what do you think has happened over that period of time that has made this situation become more acute?
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Thank you, Huda. Well, first I would say that the other thing that guided me and some of us is another phrase that we say every year. And that is a deep understanding that antisemitism is a yesh. It was, it is, and it will be that it is a disease without an antidote and without a vaccine. And so in my 30, 50 years, I understood that it was always there. I think all of us, American Jewish Committee, the American Jewish Congress, the adl, what are called the Jewish defense agencies, the legacy agencies, the professionals always knew and understood that it's here, that it's deep that it's serious, that it will always be here. And recognizing that we try to develop a strategy, what I would say, containment. You're not eradicating it, you're not defeating it, you're not ending it. But if you can, with all the elements that exist in the society, develop a strategy of containment, we'll be in a better place. And I would say, maybe somebody else would say, but not me. But I'm here and you're asking me. I think we were successful in the last 50 years of using the elements that were out there. Civility, truth, memory of the Holocaust, coalitions, legislation, litigation. All the elements that made our society what it was was to keep anti Semitism in the gutters with the COVID on. And it worked in a sense. If you take a look at the last hundred years in the United States, from Leo Frank till Pittsburgh, three Jews were killed in the United States because they were Jews. In 100 years, millions were killed all over the world because they were Jews. And two out of the three were because of the Middle East. Mayor Kahana and the A student, Yeshiva student David Halberstamp. So it's really one classic case of anti Semitism. In Crown Heights, we broke all barriers, political, cultural, economic, you name it. Academic. All these things that were barred to Jews because they were Jews didn't disappear. But they were not part of the American tradition. So if everything was so wonderful, what happened? Well, first of all, I need to say our warnings. And we issued reports every year. Nobody listened. And the people who should have listened, the Jew, the media didn't listen. They didn't care. Okay? They had other reasons. But the people who should have listened, the Jews ignored us, said we were creating these facts because we were fundraising. And, you know, the barbs came more from the Jewish community than they came from the anti Semites on the outside who didn't take a warning series. And every year we said, hey, I'm going through my papers. I wrote about campus antisemitism in 1974, in 1979, we're talking about. It's a new phenomenon. 20 years ago, I met with the president of Columbia because Israelis and Jews are being discriminated, as in Colombia. So it's not new, but people didn't listen. Okay? So aside from that, you know what happened? What happened is the world changed. The world changed in the last 10 years. Trump is part of it. I would call it Trumpism. It's not Trump, per se. I'm not. I don't think he's such a chachim. That he knows what he's doing, but he broke all taboos. Probably the most significant thing that he did to hurt us. And again, he didn't do it to hurt us is to destroy truth. Anti Semitism, racism is the big lie. Can you imagine if Goebbels were in this position that we're in? But he destroyed the truth. He destroyed media. These are elements that we used for the last fifty hundred years to fight antisemitism, to counteract it, to argue it, et cetera. So you lost civility. All the taboos were gone. The taboos protected us as everybody else. We lost truth, we lost media. And we, the Internet, we have a new phenomenon which, as I would say here, if Gables had probably could have conquered the world. Because now all of a sudden, genius. I remember I went to Palo Alto many, many times. I wrote a book 10, 15 years ago called Viral Hate. People didn't pay attention. But all of a sudden, the geniuses in Palo Alto created a superhighway where misinformation and disinformation were easily, easily transmitted in nanoseconds globally. And what's the number one hit on misinformation and disinformation? What are the conspiracy theories all about? Jews. Jews, Jews. I remember. Mark Twain, 140. I don't remember. He wrote an essay about Jews and antisemitism, and he said wherever he went, there was antisemitism. Rich people, smart people, stupid people, atheists, religious. So part of the problem is that there is no one reason anti Semitism serves the right and the left, fascism and communism, it serves the rich and the poor. It metastasizes. And therefore we come to realization that since there is no unreason and it serves so many purposes, it will always be with us and the atmosphere totally, totally change. And that brings it to your question, what's the role of Jewish leadership? Okay. I thought in my time it was tough compared to what it is today. It was easy.
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B
Okay. You said a lot of things, and I'm very persuaded by a lot of them. So I'm going to pick up on a few different pieces, one that you didn't name, that I've been laser focused on for years now. And I wrote about this five, six, seven, eight years ago, about how I argued that hyperpartisanship in America was the biggest existential threat to Jews. Because in some ways, what you described as the container that made possible the suppression of remote radical ideas, conspiracy theories, the rupture of taboos, one of the other forces that it relied upon was broad consensus politics in America that sidelined marginal viewpoints. And both parties, by the way, have been complicit in this through the process of gerrymandering, where you make districts that are super red and super blue. And there was a powerful example of this recently with the Antisemitism Awareness Act. One of the wildest stories that I feel like I've seen in a long time where Republican members of Congress are insisting that an antisemitism bill focuses very heavily on anti Israel activism because they see that as a left problem. And then as part of the process, Marjorie Taylor Greene leads a process by which then they carve out an exception in the prohibitions on speech for Christ killing. Christians should be allowed to believe that without being accused of anti Semitic. So I guess this is a long way of asking, I think, a complicated question, which is one of the taboos that I think held for a long time was that antisemitism was bad. Nobody wanted to be identified as it. Today, it's still the case. Marjorie Taylor Greene doesn't want to be called an anti Semite. Anti Israel activists don't want to be characterized as anti Semite. But in the landscape of language in which we're operating, it kind of doesn't matter anymore. So in what ways is the terminology of fighting anti Semitism actually helping us or hurting us right now, as opposed to fighting a more generalized Jewish hate, which can take all these different kind of forms?
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You know, it dawns on me, I didn't mention the word Israel.
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Yeah, we'll come to Israel for sure.
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Yeah, neither did you. And yet when it comes to issues of definition, issues of bipartisanship, et cetera, et cetera, Israel pro Israel plays a major, major, major role in. In terms how we used to define antisemitism. We define it now whether it becomes an issue of conflict and what I would say, Israel has become the Jew amongst the nations. And so when every nation is allowed, the Jew is not allowed, et cetera. And then it becomes. But I believe that in my years, the most sacred possession we thought we developed was bipartisanship, bipartisanship on race, on anti Semitism, on Israel. I remember many, many years ago, we took missions to Israel of congressmen, Democrats and Republicans together. They discovered the Holy Land, they discovered Jesus on our shoulders in Israel. And they came back and for the first time worked with each other because they knew each other and liked each other. Okay. Then comes a period in our time and you know, Sheldon Adelson, Zichron, and he decides, no, we're not going to have joint missions. Bipartisan. We'll only take Republicans. So the Democrats started taking Democrats from Republicans. We ourselves destroyed bipartisanship. Israel made a decision somewhere along the line. And look, to a large extent, since Israel became part and parcel of our Jewishness and who we are and our role in America and our advocacy and our identity and everything else, you know, the tion that came out of tion was not always for all of tion. And so the message is coming out is Israel started becoming partisan. And we are today in a partisan situation where there are no coalitions and every issue is being used against the others. And we are being, we're being used. Jews are being used on Israel, on anti Semitism for other purposes. And that puts us in a dilemma. If it was Jews qua Jews, it's one thing to stand up, but now when Jews are being used on immigration issues, on woke issues, makes it a lot more difficult when to say something or not say something.
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B
One of the forces that you just described in terms of Israel forcing this bipartisan divide is, I'm going to just say, honestly, this was, this was a choice by the Netanyahu administration as well. Over the past 15, 20 years, there's good evidence that they became convinced that liberal Jews were disappearing. They became convinced that liberal Jews represent an infinitesimally small percentage of the population compared to evangelicals. If you don't really care about Jewish peoplehood and you care about the long term survival of Israel on the basis of the choices of the right, that's
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part of a vision.
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Why has that position, which is so obvious, why has that never been publicly articulated by leaderships of the major Jewish organizations who are constantly running protection for the Netanyahu administration? Because of the perception that that's the way that you are pro Israel. Couldn't it have made a difference over the last 20 years for the AJC, for the ADL, for the federations to not just privately nudge against Netanyahu, but publicly say, we, as representative of the American Jewish community, do not accept that this is an approach that attempts to speak in our name. Have we enabled this to happen?
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A
Well, because they really did not speak in our name, okay? They represented their interests. And what you're seeing is again, you can dislike Bibi or like Bibi, it doesn't matter. But Bibi still articulates first and foremost what he believes as a democratically elected leader, what is in his mind, in his understanding, in the best interests of the people of Israel. So for us to second guess that and you want us to second guess if you support Israel and Israel is not at peace and Moshiach hasn't come and we haven't resolved. So the only issues that we ever that I remember we have a takan are the internal issues of respect amongst Jews. I've always said that support for Israel will not disappear on the issue of settlements, but it will disappear if Israel does not respect other Jews. How you know that it starts defining Jews in one way. And so why should my children and grandchildren care about Israel in the future if half of them or 80% of them don't think they're Jews? So this is the only issue, Yehuda, that the Jewish community more spoke out because who is a Jew and who's a rabbi determined in Israel impacted on us. The other issues, how to carry on diplomacy, foreign policy, it would really be chutzpredict for us to substitute our wisdom to his wisdom. Now the option that we had is not to follow. That means we didn't, you know, he went into the Trump camp. American Jewry is not following him into the Trump camp. Elements of American Jewry are, but they were there for other reasons as well. But again, it would be really chutzpah, dick, for me to substitute my opinion, my view of what is in the best interest of the lives and safety of Israeli citizens. And as long as they're a democracy. I said a while back during the judicial crisis, reform, I was asked, I remember by the Jerusalem Post, you know, Abe, you've always said your support of Israel is unconditional. And I said, yeah, unconditional. As long as Israel continues to be a democracy, and as long as Israel continues to be a democracy, whether I like Bibi or not, he's going to determine how to carry on his foreign policy, to what extent I support it publicly. Again, Israel is at war. Israel still under threat. So these are not decisions that you are talking about in an abstraction. And October 7th changed a lot of it. If we were moving in your direction, where the American Jewish community was becoming more comfortable being critical. And it was. And it was. And then came October 7th. And you know what? Criticism is a luxury that Jews feel at this moment they don't have or have less of.
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B
But I think I'm asking a slightly different question, which is not about kind of omnibus criticism of Israel, Israel's policies. And there, you know, your mileage may vary. I'm more comfortable with it, you're less comfortable with it. I'm focusing on something more specific, which is public criticism of the decision by the Netanyahu government to participate in the partisan polarization in America which is actually existentially damaging to American Jews. So the state of Israel makes as part of its core claim, right? It makes as part of its core claim that it is both a state for its citizens like any normal state, but it also sees a responsibility to protect and defend the, the integrity of Jews around the world and not just when they arrive. And my observation is that if you and I agree that this partisanship held together around a certain type of support for Israel and that the Israeli government helped to pull that apart, we should actually be resisting that which is not an internal Israel issue, it's an internal American Jewish issue.
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A
Yeah, you know, Shvetzes aren't Eid. You know, it's good to be Jewish, but it's tough to be Jewish. It's a great intellectual conversation. But I'm sorry, I know Israel talks on behalf of safety and well being of Jews, but I know that first and foremost it's the safety and security of the citizens of Israel. And in the last 50 years, Israel and I have privately disagreed and I saw them taking positions which would be not positive for Diaspora Jews. And again, I understood it because if I had the responsibility for my citizens, I would take first and foremost. It's, you know, the Havdal, you know, in my, in my area, to me was always, you know, the Hilo concept, but it was always number one. It was always clearly number one. And when you come to current leadership, Jewish leadership, it isn't always number one. They're a little befuddled where it should be, et cetera. But I always understood that for Israel and Israelis, their safety, their security, their relationship is number one. And I don't like Bibi's embrace of Trump. Trump saying he's the greatest president for Israel in history, and then Bibi saying, yes, but you know what? I understand. And again and again here, a lot of people don't like Bibi. The fact is, October 7th, Hamas didn't attack Bibi, attacked Israel. You know, and it's easy to say, I don't like Bibi. So therefore this, and therefore that's a luxury that I don't think we have because the attack, you know, they weren't going to destroy Bibi, they're going to destroy Israel. And so again, we have certain luxuries here to discuss and what could be and what should be. There's still a reality out there. Now I will say to you this. People used to ask me what keeps me up at night and my answer used to be Iran. Existential threat. Well, no, it doesn't keep me up anymore because Israel today has a deterrent. It's destroyed Hamas, Hezbollah, et cetera. And Iran is not an existential threat. What is an existential threat? God forbid, Deterioration of the relationship between Israel and America and Israel and diaspora Jewry. That keeps me up because we're in a situation where Israel is so dependent, so dependent on the United States and being so dependent on the United States, it is dependent on the American Jewish community. But you hear what we saw this week. You have the date it in the program. All the efforts at lobbying, all the efforts at advocacy, all the relationships that we built within 24 hours are down the drain. And it really doesn't matter because the world has, America has changed so dramatically. So again, the questions that you ask my successors and the Jewish community, the decisions where they stand and where they don't stand, there's no precedent for it. And the precedents that we look at in a world that really doesn't fit. So I have, you know, always intellectually, and I don't compare Hasfah, Khalilah, Trump to Hitler or Hitler. I don't. There are all kinds of elements that people like to. But I intellectually understood Hitler coming to power. Now I really understand it for the first time. I couldn't understand lawyers and doctors and jurists in the 30s. These were people, people who saved lives, stood up. And I now see it. I now understand how you can rationalize anything and everything. I'm a lawyer, my daughter's lawyer. I don't understand the lawyers, you know, coming down on the knee and saying, we're guilty. How do we settle this? I just, I could never understand it then. And now I understand. That's what's very frightening. I will tell you something else. You said. I spoke out at the Holocaust Museum on Yom Hashoah. Yeah. The museum is there for one thing, to show never be silent, stand up. So if you don't do it there. But I have to tell you how many people thanked me for my courage. People have said to me, thank you for speaking up if this is courage. But there is an intimidation, there is a fear here very, very deep.
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B
I know, I know that to me
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A
is very scary because I look at my fellow Jews and Jewish instit and all of a sudden the chesba and Hanefesh is about them, not about Am Yisroel. It's, are they going to be, Are they going to be targeted? Okay, so maybe we should be quiet. We shouldn't be targeted. And I've said to people, you know what, if he decides to target you, it really doesn't matter what you say or don't say. So you might as well stand up and say what you believe. But it's easier for me because I don't have a constituency. I don't speak for anybody. But I will also tell you, my wife and my kids said to me, we understand you're going to go to the Holocaust Museum and you're going to be you. But you know what? You know what? Just think, okay? So I tried to do it delicately. I tried to do it adal. I tried to do it with the context. But I understand the fear out there. I understand the anxiety out there, whether it's the knowledge institution or tax deductibility. All of a sudden, if tax deductibility goes out, the Dr. Most of the support for Jewish education disappears. So I understand. But still responsibility.
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B
So look, I agree with you. And we've had. We're on nobody's radar, for better or worse, I guess. But we've had internal conversations about what our commitments are and what we'll be willing to do at the cost of donors of tax status, all those things. And those are not small calculuses. We employ people. It's like a big deal to say we're willing to put it at risk because we believe that we have to say what we need to say. What scares me a little bit is not that people are holding their tongue because of fear. I get that. What scares me is that people are holding their tongue, claiming that it's about fear, but it's actually about self interest and claiming that they think that by holding where they are, they keep access. I mean, that's been such a big narrative for so long for American Jewish leaders. Well, I need to have access, but I feel like, well, what's the access for? You have access, say something. And the fear of jeopardizing that access feels like, well, what's the point of having it if it's not for this kind of rise of authoritarianism? So how do you get people to move beyond that? And it can't be that people wait till they retire. It's not good.
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Share with you When Trump ran for office the first time, yeah. I went to a mentor. I went to see Henry Kissinger, and I said, henry, what do we do? And he said to me, you know what you do? I protect democracy, you protect the Jews. So he worked with him. And I believed, I think Jews Always felt you need to deal with the power to be, not the power that want to be. Yeah, but it is. Listen, our relationships sometimes holding our nose, save Jews, Jewish lives and prevent the Jewish suffering. Listen, I went to see. I went to see the junta in Argentina. Hello? Okay, you know, was this something I wanted to do? No, because most of the students arrested were from social sciences and they were Jews. They happened to be Jews. And Kibmerman was suffering as a Jew, whether I liked his philosophy or not. So, yeah, you know, I worked with Mengistu. I went to see Arafat, you know, so we made these very uncomfortable decisions. That doesn't mean I was right all the time. I worried about credibility. I worried, you know, to me, it was the chutzpah on Ephraim I had to give to myself. Okay? I think what was lucky for me is from whence I came. You know, I. People say to me, oh, you survived so you can do this. That's the height of arrogance and chutzpah. God knows why. But it was simple for me, because my focus was always clear. It was always clear. It's what serves best, the Jews, the Jewish people in Israel. The answer isn't always clear. The answer is not always clear. After the Iran revolution, I went to see Ramsey Clark in the Iranian embassy in Washington. Ramsey Clark. And people said to me, what are you doing? And Ramsey Clark saved 15 Jews from hanging because I went to see him now. And all kinds of people said, oh, what are you doing? You know, so it's not always simple. You say, you know, it's not fear, it's self interest. Well, it's fear of want. It's fear that you're going to lose your position, you may lose whatever. So it's very mixed. What scares me is we can rationalize everything. It's so easy to rationalize. That's the scary part. At one moment, you stop rationalizing and say, this is way beyond the rational reason why I quote or shouldn't do it. It takes a higher plane. I don't know the answer. I am worried because I don't see things changing for the better. I don't see light at the end of the tunnel. I don't see it in Israel. I don't see it here. And again, we're so tied to each other. All of a sudden, Bibi's now talking about we have to be independent. Okay, a little late. Yeah, but because all of a sudden his relationship is souring. We don't always have the wisdom. And if we have the wisdom Then we need the courage. We don't always have the courage. I always worried about credibility. Credibility was the most important element in my possession on behalf of the Jewish people. Doesn't mean I made mistakes. But. But if the Cheshire ha Nefesh is not losing non tax exemption, then I don't know. But on the other hand, if your institution disappears, you're not there to help or do.
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B
I felt that. The piece that I felt was particularly courageous was speaking about the universities, because that feels like to a lot of Jews right now, the situation at universities feels like red meat. Fight against antisemitism. The perception that these places which I think is. Is not fully accurate, that these places which have deep antisemitic ideas embedded in certain departments and certain culture around Israel, but are not even like at the campus that we're next door to, there are Jewish students who are thriving on campus. So that narrative is serving a particular set of ideas that are actually not about antisemitism. It's actually also about dismantling universities. And you have tried to stand up
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A
against that and said, I think we have an obligation. I said it almost colloquially. Jews have to learn to walk and chew gum at the same time. And I don't understand why. Thank you, Mr. President, for Jerusalem. No, thank you for banning Arabs. Thank you for what you're doing here, but no, thank you for immigration. Immigration is the soul of Jews. Many Jews died because there was no immigration to the United States. So we need to understand it. So we're not able to do this. Somehow we feel that if he does us a favor or somebody does us a favor, we have to close our eyes, our mouth, to everything else. And I think we need to be strong enough and mature enough to say thank you and no, thank you, and we're not doing it. I don't understand why. Because we're dealing with a Persona who's vindictive, who took him four years to talk to Bibi because he congratulated Biden. So you're dealing with a Persona which breaks all the rules in terms of what we understood is behavior, civility, how do you protect your interests, how do you act, how do you behave? But still our code is still our code. And our code is, yes, thank you, we should thank for what's good, but we should have the ability and the strength to say, but no, no, no, this is not about immigration. Immigration is what America is about. Due process is what America is about. But look, whatever you want. His message on antisemitism is a good message. The trouble in this country is there are no consequences to antisemitism. That's what's happened. People used to say to me, what's the difference between antisemitism in US and Europe? And I would say, in Europe, there are laws against antisemitism, but they're not enforced. In the United States, the First Amendment won't let us have have laws against antisemitism, but there are consequences. If you're an anti Semite, it's an American, it's immoral, it's a Christian, you're going to pay a price. Not because the law says so. Now we've lost that in the last 10 years, there are no consequences. You know, as I don't tell you, you can go out, you can march with a Palestinian flag, come up today, tomorrow, God bless you, that's fine. But if you use that flag to stop a Jewish student to go to class or beat them up on it, that's freedom of speech. There needs to be consequences. And we all know that if students use the N word in a public square of a university, they would be suspended. But to say, yes, the Jews today is okay. So there needs to be consequences. The irony is Biden wrote the book, he did the Initiative on Antisemitism, which is historic. In 50 years, we would knock on the door of the government, say, hey, antisemitism is your responsibility. We finally have it. But they didn't act. They didn't act because elections, because of Michigan, because of Israel. Trump is saying all the right things, and he may even be doing the right things, but for the wrong reasons. So it's a dilemma for us. But I think we still have to stand up for the institutions, for due process. Even if the wrong things that he's doing help us in the long term,
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B
I just don't see how they help us at all. Because I think in the long run,
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A
there needs to be consequences. Yes, for sure.
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B
No, I felt this way. I felt this way all along at the universities that the issue was time, place and manner. If you violate the rules, prosecute the rules.
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A
No, but how do you get them to look, the codes were always there. If they applied the codes, there would be consequence. The problem is they didn't apply the codes to us.
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B
I agree, but that could have easily happened through actual intelligent mobilizing of the Jewish community. But when you connect it to cutting $850 million from Johns Hopkins, from cancer research, and then pretend that that's what's happening at Harvard or Columbia, that that's making them Enforce the rules. Doesn't make any sense. That's actually dismantling higher education.
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A
But I don't think. I think the minority of Jews support that. I think the minority of Jews support that. They're happy to hear the language. They're happy that there's going to be a price to be paid. But that's not the price because that's going to destroy. Listen, I also worry we're putting out these reports on anti Semitic ABC for university. I want kids to go to Columbia. I Jewish kids to go to Harvard. We worked for 50 years to break the quotas for us because that's where the future of America will continue to be. I don't want them not to go. So, you know, I'm very careful about being critical of my successors because what happens is it becomes a very personal type of thing. You know, this, my generation, the current generation. But I do think there is something missing in my day. And I remember even when I was at Tutsik growing up, I would go ADL, American Jewish Committee, American Jewish Congress, NJCRC, anywhere from five to ten organizations would meet at Leo's Restaurant on East 70th once a month. We hated each other's guts. We competed for the same dollar, but we sat once a month and we struggled about the priority. And then we would say, you know what? Arab boycott is an issue for the next year. We need legislation. UADL and the American Jewish Congress take the lead. Immigration. Immigration is going to be an issue. You, the American Jewish Committee and you, Hadassah, and you, Hillel, you take the lead. And we all did the same things. We all fortunate as we all better or worse. We all fought anti Semitism, we all did interreligious. But we did set priorities. And when there was a time to set up an organization on Soviet Jewry, we did. And there was a time to set up an organization for Ethiopian Jewry, we did. And there was a time to deal with the Catholic Church as a community. It was itch kick. So we did operate. I don't see it now. I don't feel it now. I don't see this effort of coming together seriously. Because how many reports on antisemitism do we need? Does it really matter whether it's 62% or 67%? So for the guy, take a look. Everybody hates the Jews. And for the Jews, what does that do? Does that reinforce our strength? So nobody's sitting there and saying, you know what, adl, you're good at this. You did this committee. You, they're not doing it. Plus, I will tell you, we need to have a Jewish position in immigration. We need to have a Jewish position on higher education. We need to have a Jewish position. In 20 years from now, this would be a Latino, Hispanic country. We need a strategy to interact with the future Latinos and Hispanic leadership together. We need to be there on their way up, so there are things we can do. This will pass. Look, I think it will be better. It will never be the same. It will never be the same. But Yehuda, I'm an optimist. Golda Meer once said, Jews don't have the luxury to be pessimists. I don't think survivor. A million and a half Jewish children perished. I survived. How dare I not have an optimistic view of our future? It's going to be tough. It was worse. It was worse. But it's all about us. You know, people say to me, mom, I said, you know what? I am an optimist. Because it's not about them, it's about us. Because I once went to a seminar, whether Jewish civilization will survive. And the organizers had a study of Spengler and Toynbee to try to find the secret of Jewish survival. And I think they found it and they came out and they said, you know, after the Roman Empire fell, no Roman got up and said, I want to be a Roman. How do I become a Roman? After the Greek civilization fell, no Greeks came running. I want to be a Greek. The secret of Jewish survival is after the destruction of the first temple in the exile and the second temple, Jews were running around, how do I continue being Jewish? Maybe we'll write a Talmud. Maybe we'll do whatever we were being Jew. And if after the Shoah, if Jew, I said to my father, why are you teaching me to be Jewish? Okay, why are you sending me the Yeshiva? Okay, so he explained it. You know, we have a tradition, we have history, whatever. When Jews stood up, built families, rebuilt Israel and Jewish sovereignty. So I look at that now. So far, I think we've done okay. After October 7th, you know, with all the issues, the question is going to be how many Jews take off mezuzah from the door. That to me. And you know, as long as Jews get up there and say, I want to be a Jew, we will continue to survive and overcome all our enemies. But that's so far. Jews returning to synagogue. I don't know how many billions they made for Israel. So far, the signs are good. And you have to be seichel. I don't think It's a heroism to go to Colombia and wear a T shirt. Tsahel. Okay, that's a little stupid at this moment. Doesn't show heroism unless you want an incident. And there are some people who like incident. That's not courage. That's not standing up for being a Jew. But so far, I see the Jews standing up. I worry about Israel. I worry because the internal strife, we overcame it two years ago on October 8. But I have this annoying feeling we're going back to Yehudim, and that's the scary part. So again, it's not about them, it's about us. And so that's why you're in business.
- [42:50]
B
Yeah, no kidding. Well, I know, and I'm grateful for the plug. But I'll ask you one last question. And it really is like raising the anthem to me. It's not just sufficient to have a strategy about immigration. I really feel that the role of those of us who fight antisemitism, who fight hate, have a special responsibility to look out for the vulnerability of others. And here I feel that since your tenure, this has gone away. I remember growing up when I went to. I was in a Jewish day school, Orthodox day school. But the place where I encountered real serious understanding of racism and hate in America was when I did an after school ADL program. That's where ADL introduced me. Not to how do I stand up for myself? How do I advocate for myself? That I got from my day school. What it taught me was, what country do you live in? And how is immigration of value? And how has fighting racism a value? And what is the multicultural tapestry of this country that we're responsible to? And I have to say, that's gone away. It's entirely been replaced by if you were fighting, fighting antisemitism, if you're opposing hate, you're opposing this hate. And now we're going to jeopardize our relationship with the black community and with immigration advocacy groups because we're just standing up for ourselves. It's really. It's just a mealy moment. It's who's for me. How does the Jewish community reclaim that the nobility of fighting antisemitism is intertwined with the nobility of fighting against hatred to all that we are intertwined with these commitments.
- [44:21]
A
Well, okay, so it's part of our teachings. It's part of a Tzedek. Tzedek Turdof is not about us. It's about everybody. Okay, so we've always been taught. I remember AD we did the first book, the Nation of immigrants. We did World of Difference. Okay? All that. But part of the reality, yehuda, is that October 7th was a major trauma. People asked me after October 7th, Abe, were you surprised? And my short answer was, no, I wasn't surprised, but I was shocked. I was shocked at two things. One was the depth of the hate that was out there, and two, the silence and indifference of all the people that we stood with together. I never believed Yehuda when I worked for LGBT or African, it was always. For me. It was always good to my values. If I raised the level of respect and tolerance for anybody, it raises the level of tolerance and respect for us. So even in that, it wasn't altruistic. It was selfish as well. The Civil Rights act of 64 helped us open up resorts for Jews because all of a sudden, you couldn't discriminate in interstate commerce. Okay? It was done for African Americans, but all of a sudden, Palm beach opened up for Jews because we sued the breakers under the Civil Rights Act. So I. And so I never did. I never spoke out. We never embraced. Because there's going to be a return, okay? Because we did it again for us, for our values, et cetera. But I think the trauma of October 7th is so deep still. You can't put on the fingers of both hands 10 organizations that stood up. You can't. And that's for the NAACP, which has no international agenda, to come out with a resolution against arms to Israel in this period. And it becomes hard, you know, to embrace. So we're in a period now where the first part of Hillel is going to be a lot more impactful than the second. But again, I believe that the second part is not for anybody else, but for us as well. We need to educate. The problem is most Jews don't understand Jewish values, okay? And so that's another problem. That's another. They don't even know what they're doing and why they're doing it. If they only knew, maybe they would embrace it a little bit more. But you're absolutely right. We can't live alone. We can, and we know that Israel certainly can't. And we can't. And we can. And the problem. A lot of problems of what happened in the Holocaust, but the Holocaust would not have happened if only Germans did it, if it wasn't for the Ukrainians, the Lithuanians, and the Latvians, that's who did it. So, you know, it does matter who we're with. You know, my nanny, she stood up for her. This was the right thing to do. And that's what we're teaching. It's the right thing to do. To stand up for others is the right thing to do. So you know what? Immigration is going to hurt us too, eventually.
- [47:48]
B
Of course it will.
- [47:49]
A
Education is already hurting us. So again, I think it's selfish and altruistic at the same time. Time. But yeah, you're absolutely right. We can't throw it away because at the end of the day we will be alone. And we can't survive alone.
- [48:07]
B
Can't thank you enough for doing the show today, Abe. Thanks for being with us.
- [48:10]
A
Thank you.
- [48:24]
C
Here are some other things that are happening at the Shalom Hartman Institute With Israeli elections on the horizon, the Shalom Hartman Institute in Jerusalem convenes senior political leaders and experts including Yair Lapid, Avigdor Lieberman and Yair Golan to explore the challenges facing Israel at the intersection of Judaism and democracy and the possibilities of building a new coalition. You can listen to the full conference at the link in the show. Notes In Washington, D.C. rachel Jacoby Rosenfield moderated a conversation between Hartman's Vice president and Director of the center for Shared Society, Rana Fahoum, and Hartman's senior faculty member Masuha Sagiv. They explored what kinds of political imagination, courage and partnership are needed to keep building a different kind of Israel. Learn more about the center for Shared Society at the link in the show
- [49:08]
D
Notes thanks for listening to our show and special thanks to our guest this week, Abe Foxman. Identity Christian is produced by me, Tessa Zitter, and our executive producer is Maital Friedman. This episode was produced with assistance from Annie Beyer Chaffetz, researched by Gabrielle Feinstone and edited by Gareth hobbs@silversound nyc with music provided by so called transcripts of our show are now available on our website. Typically a week after an episode airs, we're always looking for ideas for what we should cover in future episodes. So if you have a topic you'd like to hear about, or if you have comments about this episode, please write to us@identitycrisisalomhartman.org for more ideas from the Shalom Hartman Institute about what's unfolding right now. Sign up for our newsletter in the Show Notes and subscribe to this podcast everywhere. Podcasts are available. See you next time and thanks for listening.