If Books Could Kill
Episode Title: Grit
Hosts: Michael Hobbes & Peter Shamshiri
Date: April 30, 2026
Episode Overview
In this episode, Michael and Peter tackle Grit: The Power of Passion and Perseverance by Angela Duckworth, a book that rode the TED Talk/self-help bestseller wave of the 2010s. The episode critically examines the rise and fall of "grit" as a concept in education reform, policy, and popular psychology, tracking Duckworth's meteoric influence, the methodological problems with grit research, and how the narrative unravelled. The hosts analyze why the idea captured so much attention, how it was popularized, its flawed implementation in schools, and why its core claims ultimately don't hold up under scrutiny.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. What is "Grit"? The Origins and Biography of Angela Duckworth
- Duckworth defines grit as "perseverance and passion for long-term goals," positing it as key to success, distinct from intelligence or talent.
- Michael outlines Duckworth's background: Harvard neurobiology grad, White House speechwriting intern, McKinsey consultant, then NYC public school math teacher, before psychology PhD at Penn.
- Early insights: Duckworth observed as a teacher that the "smartest" kids didn't always get the best grades—something else seemed at play, which she identified as "grit."
- Quote – Michael (04:15):
"At the end of the semester when she's doing the grading, she's like, wait a minute. The smart kids are not the ones getting the best grades...There's something different that is motivating the kids who are getting good grades."
2. Rise of the Grit Phenomenon
-
Duckworth's initial studies focused on self-control, but grit emerged as her signature concept in a 2007 paper and a 2009 follow-up with a measurable "short grit scale."
-
Grit gained traction via a viral 2013 TED Talk (one of the most-watched ever) and media (Paul Tough’s How Children Succeed). Policymakers cited Duckworth’s research to argue for "character education" and non-cognitive skills in schools.
-
The hosts emphasize how well "grit" fit the zeitgeist, especially amidst backlash to "No Child Left Behind" and standardized testing.
-
Quote – Peter (02:13):
"Yeah, I got Fs in math, science, reading, but B plus in grit, baby."
-
School reforms and policy papers (including under the Obama administration) quickly sought to bake "grit" into education metrics—resulting in pilots like "grit report cards" and emotional skills assessment in California schools.
3. What the Studies Really Say
- The podcast methodically dissects Duckworth's cited studies:
- West Point: Grit "predicted" who would complete the first seven weeks ("Beast Barracks"), but the difference between high- and low-grit students was only 4%. Also, all cadets are already a highly selected, "gritty" population.
- Green Berets: Grit predicted less than intelligence or physical fitness.
- Chicago Public Schools: Grit predicted graduation slightly better than some variables, but SAT scores were far more predictive.
- In sum: Grit consistently underperforms against older, more established predictors (IQ, SATs, study habits, etc.), often explaining less than 1% of outcome variance.
- Quote – Michael (41:11):
"The entire point of this concept was that GRIT is doing something that traditional measures, things like SAT scores and IQ can't do. And then you look into her data, and it turns out IQ and SAT scores are doing more than grit."
Notable Analysis
- Duckworth often presents findings with misleading language, e.g., claiming a "99% greater likelihood" to finish Beast Barracks, when the real difference is 4%.
- Methodology is questionable—e.g., in a teachers study, “grit” was measured from college resumes, not self-report or observable behavior.
- Many studies are tautological: “Grit correlates with success at tasks that require perseverance”—but so does hard work or practice.
- Quote – Peter (36:13):
"She's just come up with a third category that's worse across the board."
4. Problems with the Policy Implementation
- Despite weak evidence, policymakers rushed to implement grit assessments in schools.
- Attempts to teach or instill grit in children have been largely ineffective. Research shows it's not clear how to build grit, and interventions don’t work.
- Studies show kids simply answering surveys to please adults, or report lower grit scores when immersed in competitive schools.
- Quote – Michael (61:05):
"You just end up measuring the thing. You measure grit and then you reward the kids that are high in it...which feels like the rich get richer."
5. The Book Falling Apart: Self-Help, Anecdotes, and Moving Goalposts
- Most of Grit is a grab bag of inspiring stories—athletes, CEOs, Will Smith, etc.—with little connection to Duckworth’s original, testable claims. The narrative veers into tautology: hard work leads to success!
- Duckworth’s own definitions of grit shift throughout the book (sometimes hard work, sometimes perseverance, sometimes “consistency of interests”) and expand to include four made-up factors (interest, practice, purpose, hope).
- The book touts malleability (“You can grow your grit!”), but evidence for this is non-existent or anecdotal.
- Quote – Peter (48:02):
"This is like every stupid ass self help book. It's like, dude, did you know that Cleopatra used the secret?"
6. The Downfall: Duckworth Herself Debunks Grit
- By 2015, evidence mounts that measuring or teaching grit doesn't work; Duckworth herself co-authors critical papers and writes op-eds urging policymakers not to use grit to grade schools.
- She distances herself from the hype, but continues to promote the book and the concept publicly, shifting definitions and claims.
- Twist Reveal (65:53):
"That paper was written by Angela Duckworth." [Duckworth's own paper debunked the school-grit connection.]
- In her TED Talk and later writing, Duckworth admits, "The honest answer is, I don't know [how to teach grit]." (66:34)
7. Criticisms and Harmful Implications
- Focus on grit became a way of blaming students—especially poor/minority students—for "lacking grit" instead of addressing systemic barriers like poverty, underfunding, and social hardship.
- The concept was always more appealing (and marketable) to upper middle-class parents anxious about their kids' "softness" than relevant to poor families.
- The evidence reveals: interventions which address poverty (e.g., increasing food stamps, income supports) have far more effect on educational outcomes than psychological character training.
- Quote – Michael (75:07):
"It would be counterproductive and ultimately cruel to focus on individual characteristics without also considering the economic and social terrain on which those characteristics play out."
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- Peter (00:35): "Isn't the title missing an F?"
Michael: "What grift? Oh my. I'm so stupid. I was like, what the fuck's the grit?"
- Peter (29:08): "If you've ever met someone who wants to go to West Point...It's hard to explain, but they're super type A. They're not cool, right?"
- Michael (42:14): Describes Duckworth’s method: "She goes into the teacher's resumes, and she gives them a GRIT score from one to six based on how many extracurriculars they did in high school and college."
- Peter (51:27): On Jamie Dimon: "If you're willing to come up with an idea and execute to the point where the entire economy falls apart, if that's not grit, what else is? They're seeing it through."
- Peter (58:54): On ballet anecdotes: "Who do you think was grittier, Natalie Portman or Mila Kunis?"
- Michael (62:45): "There was this weird rush to do something, but nobody had a clear idea of what they were rushing to do."
Timestamps for Key Segments
- [01:09] – Introduction to Angela Duckworth and the background of "grit"
- [06:49] – Definition and main studies: what is the grit scale, how is it measured?
- [14:25] – Grit enters education reform as policymakers seek new “noncognitive skills” measures
- [23:15] – Grit in policy: California and national schools begin testing/measuring grit
- [26:27] – Dissection of West Point and military studies—what the numbers really mean (and don't)
- [38:29] – Chicago school study: Grit vs. SATs and other established predictors
- [41:11] – Meta-analyses: Grit underperforms other predictors across the board
- [47:55] – Book’s middle section: shift to self-help and “success” stories
- [55:53] – Circular and shifting definitions of “grit,” tautological reasoning
- [59:22] – The practical failure: grit can’t be taught, policy implications are a dead end
- [65:53] – The twist: Duckworth’s own research debunks school-based grit interventions
- [66:34] – Duckworth’s TED Talk: “The honest answer is, I don’t know [how to teach grit].”
- [75:07] – The real drivers of student improvement: Social and economic supports, not grit
Tone & Language Notes
- Irreverent, skeptical, and incisively comic—the hosts are up front about their doubts and take-jabs at the TED-industrial complex and self-help publishing.
- Willing to cite directly, pull quotes, and juxtapose serious policy statements with snarky asides.
- The episode ramps up from gentle skepticism to outright case-closed dismissal.
Conclusion
Michael and Peter conclude that the "grit" craze, despite its massive media and policy influence, was based on weak science and circular reasoning, ultimately doing little besides shifting blame for educational outcome disparities onto students themselves—while conveniently selling millions of books and launching speaking careers. Even Duckworth herself now publicly admits the science isn’t there.
The true lesson? If you want to help students succeed, invest in their material well-being—not in airport bestsellers or TED-inspired “one weird trick” psychology.
Memorable closing thought:
Peter (72:37):
"Continuing to pitch your stupid idea a decade after it was was functionally debunked. That's grit. That's what grit is."
For listeners:
This episode is a comprehensive, funny, and damning reminder to question big, simple ideas that leap from academia to bestseller status—especially when policymakers are tempted to run with them before the science is real. If you've ever wondered how a TED Talk becomes national education policy (for better or for worse), this is a must-listen.
