A ROYAL JEWELLERY HEIST WITH RICHARD WALLACE

Summary

Podcast Summary: "A ROYAL JEWELLERY HEIST WITH RICHARD WALLACE"

Podcast Information:

• Title: If Jewels Could Talk with Carol Woolton
• Host: Carol Woolton
• Episode: A ROYAL JEWELLERY HEIST WITH RICHARD WALLACE
• Release Date: October 31, 2024

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1. Introduction to the Episode

Carole Woolton welcomes listeners to a special true crime episode featuring Richard Wallace, a historian and author of The King's Lute. The episode delves into the mysterious and potentially fraudulent activities surrounding the Duchess of Windsor's jewelry collection, particularly focusing on the infamous 1987 auction in Geneva.

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2. Book Premise and Author’s Motivation

Carole Woolton introduces Richard Wallace and his new book, The King's Lute, which explores four dubious episodes in the Windsor family's history:

1. Edward VIII’s Abdication (1936): Examining the circumstances leading to the king’s abdication.
2. Burglary at Ednam Lodge: Discussing the theft of valuable jewels.
3. Death of the Duchess of Windsor (1986): Investigating the disappearance of her jewels from Bois de Boulogne.
4. 1987 Geneva Auction: Analyzing the auction that became a global sensation.

Richard Wallace explains his intent to uncover unanswered questions and murky dealings within these events. He states, “The book is really based on four episodes in the Windsor story, which I suppose you would more or less characterize as somewhat dubious” (02:25).

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3. The 1987 Geneva Jewelry Auction

Carole Woolton describes the auction as an unprecedented event in the jewelry world. The Duchess of Windsor's collection attracted global attention, drawing European aristocracy, celebrities, and journalists to Geneva. The intense demand led to an atmosphere where "caviar truffles, foie gras are in short supply, while champagne is flooding the market at ridiculously high prices" (04:46).

Richard Wallace adds that the auction was preceded by a worldwide roadshow in locations like New York and Palm Springs, creating a “frenzy of excitement” around the Duchess's jewels (06:16). He emphasizes the Duchess's influence and the grandeur of the event, describing her as “probably the world's first mega influencer” in both jewelry and fashion (06:26).

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4. Allegations of Fraud and Misappropriation

Wallace introduces a controversial claim from a key source close to the Duchess’s estate, including Matre Bloom, the Duchess’s lawyer and private secretary. The source alleges that some pieces sold at the auction were not as their provenance suggested. Wallace states, “Some of the missing pieces were replicated right down to the inscriptions, but they weren't the genuine articles” (26:31).

He explains that Michael Block, a former private secretary to Matre Bloom, provided insights indicating that certain jewels were replicas created by the same jewelers who originally crafted them. According to Block, Sotheby's was aware of the discrepancies but took no action, a claim that remains highly controversial (32:10).

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5. The Burglary at Ednam Lodge

The episode delves into the 1947 burglary at the home of Lord and Lady Dudley, where the Duchess had left a trunk filled with jewelry. During a dinner at Claridge's, the jewels disappeared, with some found scattered in nearby fields while major pieces were never recovered (20:23). Wallace discusses discrepancies in the insurance claims, where the listed items ended with “etc.,” implying omissions (21:45).

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6. The Duchess’s Flight and Missing Jewels

Wallace suggests that upon Edward VIII’s abdication, the Duchess absconded with a significant amount of jewelry and cash. “She left with something like 85 pieces of luggage, stacks of cash and still some jewels” (14:22). He further speculates that some of the missing jewels might have been taken during the Duke’s final moments in England, hinting at potential theft from Windsor Castle’s own collection (16:31).

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7. The Role of Auctioneer Nicholas Rayner

Carol Woolton shares her personal interaction with Nicholas Rayner, the auctioneer who conducted the 1987 Geneva auction. They discuss Rayner's charismatic and glamorous persona, which was pivotal in orchestrating the high-stakes auction. Wallace recounts how Rayner became ill after the auction, attributing it to the immense stress of managing such a monumental event (29:46).

Wallace reveals claims from his source that Rayner may have knowingly included replica jewels in the auction catalogues without disclosure, thereby misleading buyers (31:39). This allegation adds another layer of complexity to the auction's legitimacy.

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8. Provenance and Changes in Auction Practices

Wallace highlights that prior to the 1987 auction, provenance—the documented history of an item's ownership—was often taken on trust, especially when guaranteed by royalty. “If your provenance has been guaranteed by a member of the royal family, I mean, most auction houses would lap that up, wouldn't they, in those days” (37:12). He contrasts this with contemporary practices, where jewels are meticulously tracked in extensive databases, reducing the likelihood of fraudulent claims.

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9. Impact on Royal Jewelry and Legacy

The episode discusses how the alleged fraud has impacted the perception of royal jewelry. Wallace points out that while Marie Antoinette and Diana hold the most valuable provenances today, the Duchess of Windsor’s pieces are less scrutinized, suggesting room for further investigation (38:32).

He reflects on the Duchess as a tragic heroine in America, a perception less common elsewhere, emphasizing the cultural divide in interpreting her legacy (38:58).

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10. Conclusion and Call to Action

Carol Woolton and Richard Wallace conclude the episode by acknowledging the unresolved mysteries surrounding the Duchess of Windsor’s jewelry. Wallace invites listeners with additional information to contact them, emphasizing that the story is far from complete and that ongoing research could shed more light on these historical enigmas (40:15).

Key Quotes:

• Richard Wallace (02:25): "The book is really based on four episodes in the Windsor story, which I suppose you would more or less characterize as somewhat dubious."
• Richard Wallace (06:26): "She was probably the world's first mega influencer, certainly in terms of jewelry, but also for all, you know, her style of dress, et cetera."
• Richard Wallace (26:31): "Some of the missing pieces were replicated right down to the inscriptions, but they weren't the genuine articles."
• Richard Wallace (37:12): "Jewels are tracked now, you know, there's a vast database."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of If Jewels Could Talk offers a gripping exploration of royal intrigue, fraud, and the enduring allure of exquisite jewelry. Through Richard Wallace’s meticulous research and compelling storytelling, listeners gain insight into one of the most fascinating chapters in royal history. The blend of historical facts, personal anecdotes, and investigative claims makes this episode a must-listen for enthusiasts of jewelry, history, and true crime.

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Connect with the Podcast:

• Website: carolwalton.com/podcasts
• Instagram: @CarolWalton
• Book: If Jewels Could Talk available in the UK and on Amazon.

Upcoming Episode: Join in two weeks for the next episode featuring Solange Azagouri Partridge, discussing her career, famous friends, and experiences with significant jewelry pieces in museums.

Transcript

[Richard Wallace]

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[Carole Woolton]

This episode is brought to you by Fooli Gemstones.

[Richard Wallace]

What is the line between, you know, one's private as possessions and the state's possessions? It's a hazy line. It's a line that is dependent on the discretion of the reigning monarch. This is the convention that Edward VIII exploited in 1936 when he became king because the crown owns the crown jewels. We don't own the crown of jewels, they are the property of the Crown.

[Carole Woolton]

I'm Carole Houlton, the voice of Jewellery. Welcome to if Jules Could Talk. I'm an author and broadcaster and the woman who initiated the role of jewelry editor at magazines like Tatler and Vogue. This is a podcast for everyone, for people who do like jewellery, for people who don't realise they like jewellery, and anyone intrigued by fascinating facts, new ideas and forgotten histories. So join me as I tell sparkly tales and meet all sorts of people delving into four centuries of jewellery culture and investigate what's happening now. Today we've got an episode which is a true crime episode. It's a real whodunit. And I am delighted to welcome the historian author Richard Wallace to talk about his new book called the King's Lute. Richard, thank you very much for joining us today.

[Richard Wallace]

My pleasure.

[Carole Woolton]

Now, will you briefly explain the premise of your book? We are talking about the Duke and Duchess of Windso. So this is a royal true crime. Richard, tell us a little about the book and then we'll talk about why you wanted to write it.

[Richard Wallace]

Well, the book is really based on four episodes in the Windsor story, which I suppose you would more or less characterize as somewhat dubious. There's a lot of murky business going on in these four episodes. So the first episode, really where I wanted to focus on, because there are just so many questions, was when Edward, Prince of Wales, father King George v, died in January 1936 and Edward became king until his abdication in December 1936. So that's one period which I wanted to examine. The second period was, of course, the burglary at Ednam Lodge. The third section is when the Duke of Windsor died to the death of the Duchess of Windsor in 1986, when there was a lot of stuff which went missing, a lot of her jewels went missing from their mansion at the Bois de Boulogne in Paris. And the fourth episode, which froze up a whole lot of questions is, of course, the auction of her jewels in 1987 in Geneva.

[Carole Woolton]

And that was an auction like there has been no other since. So the 1987 sale of the Duchess of Windsor's jewelry collection is how you open the book. And I'd just love to read a little bit of what you wrote, Richard, because it really sets the scene and shows how it was the most extraordinary event not only in the jewelry world around the globe. At the time, you said the staid Swiss town was awash with limousines, journalists, European aristocracy and celebrities. All the best hotels and restaurants are bursting at the seams. Caviar truffles, foie gras are in short supply, while champagne is flooding the market at ridiculously high prices. They've all gathered for what was billed as the auction of the century. No English monarch's possessions have been put up for auction before. The Duchess had exquisite taste. They told a story about the most famous love story of the 20th century, and were pieces created with the finest gems by the great jewelry houses. So this was something that everyone wanted to successfully bid for a piece from this auction.

[Richard Wallace]

Yes. And, you know, the auctioneers had actually done a good job because they took the jewels on a world trip and they especially focused on the US on America, and in New York, Manhattan, they went on show. And also in Palm Springs, they went on show, and there were queues forming around the buildings where they were showing them, and people were only allowed X amount of minutes to actually go into the building and view the jewels. Such was the interest in this. It was. It was just amazing. So this roadshow preceded the auction by a few months. The auction was in April, and the roadshow started in about February, March or something like that. So it whipped up this frenzy of excitement because these were jewels that, you know, hitherto, had, you know, appeared in, you know, glamour magazines, and that was the only time that they were seen. And Wallis was an influencer. She was probably the world's first mega influencer, certainly in terms of jewelry, but also for all, you know, her style of dress, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And she was married to, at one time, the world's most glamorous bachelor. So no wonder this thing built up over years and years and years. And it finally, you know, I just culminated in the auction of the century.

[Carole Woolton]

Your book is suggesting that some of the pieces that were bought at that auction were not what their provenance suggested.

[Richard Wallace]

Well, to be absolutely accurate, Carol, I'm quoting a very important source in the book, very close to both the estate, the Duchess, the infamous Matre Bloom, who, you know, I just controlled all aspects of the Duchess's life towards.

[Carole Woolton]

She was her lawyer. Her lawyer.

[Richard Wallace]

Lawyer. And, you know, she cared for the estate. So a source very close to that and the auction, and the auctioneer of the century, you know, a Nicholas Rayner. So I'm quoting a source, an impeccable source, who makes these claims, claims which have never been made before, which have astounded Windsor historians. It's the one comment I get is why has this come out now? You know, after so many biographies, after so many treatments of this whole story? And I can't quite answer that. The only thing I can think of, Carol, is that I'm a complete outsider. I'm not known. I'm a complete unknown. So maybe I'm a clean skin here. And maybe he felt that he could talk about it. Talking about Michael Block, who was Matrabloom's.

[Carole Woolton]

Private secretary, Metro Bloom became far more than the Duchess's lawyer.

[Richard Wallace]

Yes, she became her keeper, her confidant, her guardian. And, you know, in fact, you couldn't get access to the Duchess, even her closest friends, without Matthew Bloom being in, you know, agreement with that. And that was for a substantial period of time, years, several years. She was just shut away in her bedroom on drips, curtains drawn. No one saw her. The only person that administered to her was a priest.

[Carole Woolton]

And so when I said this is effectively a true crime and alleged true crime broadcast, how would you describe it? Deception, heist, crime? What word best describes it?

[Richard Wallace]

Well, if we look at the first section, which was when he was king in 1936, I would say that that was theft.

[Carole Woolton]

What was happening? These were royal artifacts being taken from royal residences.

[Richard Wallace]

That's right. Look, and this is where the rub is. Because the rub is, as you know, an earlier guest of yours in a previous podcast, you know, the wonderful Susie Menkers put it, what is the line between, you know, one's private as possessions and the state's positions? You know, the crown.

[Carole Woolton]

Publicly owned.

[Richard Wallace]

Yes, yes, publicly owned. What is that line? And it's a hazy line. It's a murky line. It's a line that is dependent on the discretion of the reigning monarch. This is the convention that Edward VIII exploited in 1936 when he became king, because, as I say, in the book, you know, all the presidents going right back to the 17th century, is that the crown owns the crown Jewels. We don't own the Crown Jewels. They are the property of the crown. And the inference is there that they can do whatever they want with them, they're theirs.

[Carole Woolton]

You also suggest in the book that he knew he was going to abdicate far earlier than people really realize. So he was beginning to think about how he would finance a lavish lifestyle with Wallace Simpson.

[Richard Wallace]

Excellent, excellent idea. And, you know, I think, I think that's absolutely right. You know, bear in mind that he had been, you know, that Edward had a history of lavishing jewels on his girlfriends and he was lavishing jewels and artworks and furniture on Wallace when they first met in the early 1930s. And I think in the book, I quote, you know, a French poem or something about how Edward was a very well known client of, you know, a Cartier and Van Cleef and Arpel, all throughout his, you know, time as, you know, a Prince of Wales. And so, yes, it was building up. His mother, Queen Mary, was really worried about stories that were coming her way about things missing from Buckingham Palace.

[Carole Woolton]

How do you know that?

[Richard Wallace]

Well, I think I cite the sources in the book. I mean, there's over 400 sources in the, in the book, Carol, so you'll have to trust me that I'm quoting from a source there. But it really reached, you know, a crescendo when his father died in January 1936, and he was more or less whereas his, you know, brothers were given a million pounds in cash on the death of King George V. Edward didn't receive anything, of course. He received the Crown and Balmoral. But for him, money was so, so important. So he felt aggrieved at that point at the reading of the will in Sandringham in January 1936. And to answer your question, I think that's the start of when he thought, I'm going to chuck this and I'm going to get all I can get because I really don't want to be king. It's boring, it's fiddly. I want to be out all night partying and having a good time, so I'm going to take them for what I can get.

[Carole Woolton]

In the book, you describe where this great treasure trove of stones came from. Yes, sort of earlier. Edward vii, the Delhi Durba, all from the empire. Some magnificent treasures that were gifted from the empire.

[Richard Wallace]

Yes, because up until the reign of Queen Victoria, the royal stockpile of jewels was severely, you know, diminished. Because previous monarchs up until that time had a habit of either pawning them to fund wars or losing them in rivers or, you know, giving them away or whatever. So it was, you know, a bit of a shambles. But it was Victoria who really began the immense royal, you know, or collection that there is, well, today. It all started for her. And it would have been easy for Edward when he was king, to go to Windsor, where these trunks and trunks of jewels were. They were in a dungeon on a dirt floor underneath Windsor Castle. It was guarded by a big door with a key this big.

[Carole Woolton]

So how, how big is that?

[Richard Wallace]

It's about, I would say, a third of a meter. An ancient iron key that was kept by the royal librarians, Owen Morted. And all the monarch had to do was ask for the key. The key would be given. They would go downstairs through several flights of stone floors into the dungeon of Windsor, open the door and Monte Cristo.

[Carole Woolton]

And you think he'd been doing that as Prince of Wales as well?

[Richard Wallace]

Well, no, because he wasn't king.

[Carole Woolton]

He didn't have that big key.

[Richard Wallace]

He didn't. He couldn't. He could ask his father if he could get the key, but, you know, the two of them loathed one another. So I doubt if George, who wouldn't do anything without the advice of his wife, Queen Mary, I doubt if he.

[Carole Woolton]

Was going, who loved jewels and she wouldn't have let any jewel out of her possession.

[Richard Wallace]

That's right. And so I don't think that would have happened. But as king, he had carte blanche.

[Carole Woolton]

And so you think these were loose GE and he took them to Cartier Van Keefe to have them set?

[Richard Wallace]

Yes, I think given his nature, given his character, given his history, given his background, given his penchant for lavishing extravagant presence on his, you know, girlfriends and whatever, I asked the question, what's to stop him?

[Carole Woolton]

When he finally left Fort Belvedere, which was his private home for the last time, Wallis wasn't with him. But you are suggesting that he had huge amount of things that he left with, which were royal artifacts packed up.

[Richard Wallace]

Well, I'm suggesting two things that. One, when it became unbearable for Wallis Simpson to stay in England in early December, and this is documented in the book, and again, I cite several key sources, is that she left with an immense amount of jewelry.

[Carole Woolton]

You said a hundred thousand pounds worth?

[Richard Wallace]

Yeah, probably more. I, I thought it was more like 200,000. But anyway, I'll take your word for it, Carol.

[Carole Woolton]

No, I think that' what you said in the book, but it meant. But that at that time is meant.

[Richard Wallace]

Plus, you know, plus. Plus she had cash. So she stuffed this into suitcases, loaded, it's the car, and headed off to.

[Carole Woolton]

You know, you make her sound like quite a gold digger.

[Richard Wallace]

Well, a little segue here. This is not an anti Wallace book.

[Carole Woolton]

Yeah. Because I'm quite a fan of all this.

[Richard Wallace]

Because given her background, Carol, how she grew up, the abuse, the humiliation for all those years when she was growing up and, you know, the daughter of more or less, you know, a single mother and whatever, you know, I wouldn't say extreme poverty, but certainly, you know, a genteel poverty, to suddenly be given an opportunity where this vast vista of wealth and luxury forever had opened up before her. Who wouldn't have taken that opportunity? I mean, I would have taken it. Anyone would have taken it. So I think Wallace naturally did what her background, well, dictated. She didn't want to go back to that style of. L was an opportunity never to go back. Never ever to go back to those days of living hand to mouth. So this is not an anti Wallace book, but I think she would have done what 99% of most people would have done in those situations.

[Carole Woolton]

And then it got out of control. She didn't expect it to go as far as it went. And the Crown, if anyone's watched the Netflix version of what happened in the Crown is entirely wrong because they show Edward VIII making his abdication speech with her hand on his shoulder, like, come on, do it now. When she was actually out of the country, ringing, begging him not to abdicate.

[Richard Wallace]

Dramatic license is what I think they call it, Carol. But we love the Crown, don't we?

[Carole Woolton]

I like the first series, but I didn't like the subsequent. They got just like gossip.

[Richard Wallace]

So, you know, we're going back to those first 12 days in December 1936. So she absconded with a huge cachet of jewels, some of which she had received from him previously. But there were probably a lot of uncut stones. But then there is a period of two or three days before his abdication speech on December 11, which are unaccounted for. He was in Fort Belvedere, a stone's throw from Windsor, and the loot, which was still in the dungeon. Who's to say he didn't pay that a visit? Certainly the assumption is that when he left Britain in the early hours of the morning on December 12th via the warship, that he did have a small hessian bag full of uncut stones in his father's overcoat, which he wore repeatedly after the death of his father. Another little quirk of history there.

[Carole Woolton]

He left by train. Did he leave the country by train?

[Richard Wallace]

No, he left the country by warship.

[Carole Woolton]

By warship. So how many trunks were loaded onto that warship?

[Richard Wallace]

Well, the convoy which I describe in the book, there was his car, where he was accompanied by his friend, Sir Walter Moncton and various police officers. But it was followed by a truck, an army truck, loaded up with stuff. Now, this is in addition to truckloads of stuff which he had shipped from Belvedere to a royal warehouse near Windsor, or all other, you know, old possessions which he couldn't really access until after the end of the Second World War. So there was a stash of stuff I think I talk about, you know, when the warship docked in France and he rendezvoused with the Orient Express, there were one or two whole cars that were devoted just to his luggage. And he never left those train. You know, old compartments he was hoarded up there with his, you know, with his luggage. So maybe he had some stuff there. We will never know.

[Carole Woolton]

It's interesting from the fact that he subsequently tried to have a role, didn't he, back within the royal fold. I mean, history does repeat itself. We're reading this about Prince Harry in the papers at the moment, but this would suggest there was someone leaving forever who had no intention to return.

[Richard Wallace]

Yes, that is a very, very interesting point you've raised there. Was he leaving forever or was he just making a cut? Was he, you know, divorcing himself from his hereditary royal duties? From that aspect? But, but, but don't forget, he was still a hrh. He was still a royal. I mean, you know, you can't escape that, really. So I think he was escaping from the kingship, but I don't think he was necessarily escaping from royalty. He loved being a royal. I mean, he loved everything about it.

[Carole Woolton]

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[Richard Wallace]

Yes.

[Carole Woolton]

So tell us what happened there.

[Richard Wallace]

Well, they had come back for their first visit to Britain as a couple in 1947, and they were staying at the Dudleys. And the Duchess, as was her want, traveled with a vast amount of luggage which was transported to the Dudley's house, including a trunk. Now, or, you know, a case, they call it a jewelry case. Now, when we talk about jewelry cases in here, I think there it still exists, the actual Louis Vuitton trunk that she used for that visit. And it's about. Well, I'm holding up my hands here, Carol, and for those who obviously are listening in, it's probably about just under a meter, two feet, something two and a half feet. I mean, it was a trunk. It was a small trunk which was crammed with jewels that she wanted to wear during this visit. And during this visit, when she and the Duke and the Dudleys were having dinner at Claridge's, as one does, Carol, they were burgled and the jewels disappeared. Some of them were scattered around the. The fields surrounding the house at, you know, Sunningdale. And some of it was recovered, but the major pieces were never recovered.

[Carole Woolton]

And this is where some discrepancies come in.

[Richard Wallace]

Huge discrepancies.

[Carole Woolton]

You don't know what the major pieces are that she had with her.

[Richard Wallace]

I think again in the book I give a sort of inventory and I quote the, you know, insurers inventory. But, you know, the key words which everyone focuses on is at the end of this list, which were issued by the insurers at the behest of the press, who were all over this, as you can imagine, was the words etc.

[Carole Woolton]

They gave a long list of jewels descriptive and then put other jewels, etc.

[Richard Wallace]

No, just etc.

[Carole Woolton]

Etc. So implying that they weren't mentioning them all.

[Richard Wallace]

Exactly. And I also quote Leslie Field, who has put together a list of some of the more important jewels which she felt were the ones that disappeared. I'm holding up my hands here, Carol, for your things to say. It's, you know, in quotations, disappeared, not stolen. Well, you'll have to read the book, won't you?

[Carole Woolton]

I have read it. And you put forward quite a few kind of cat burglars who were active at the time. And then you dismiss the fact that they could have done it because they were nowhere near or they'd given up being a burglar.

[Richard Wallace]

Well, look, everyone thinks it's. It's. Look, there was a lot of. When my book was coming out, it Was, you know, serialized in the Mail on Sunday. And people picked up that, that this was an inside job, that the Windsors had rigged this, they'd got someone to do their dirty work, all for the insurance claim. So that's the alleged crime there. The cat burglar. I always wanted to be a cat burglar when I was growing up. I wanted to be a cat burglar who didn't want to be Cary Grant into Catch a Thief and to be messing around with Grace Kelly. I wanted to be a cat burglar. I thought, well, maybe it was a cat burglar who maybe have done this. And I set forth certain possibilities, names of people. In fact, I think I end the three chapters on Ednam Lodge with my likely suspect. It was a professional burglar working in the area whose pension was to rob wealthy houses in that Sunningdale area, which was, you know, still is now, as you know, stockbroker Bell.

[Carole Woolton]

So you think he was the most likely to have carried it out?

[Richard Wallace]

I think so.

[Carole Woolton]

What was amazing was that you describe how even the morning of the burglary, Cartier were delivering new jewels to her.

[Richard Wallace]

Well, yeah, one new. One new jewel, a very important jewel. And you probably know what it, what it was. I can't remember what I wrote in the book, but here's the rub, here's the English sitcom aspect of this whole thing is that Cartier that will deliver the jewel and the Duke took possession of the jewel and then left it somewhere in the house and they couldn't find it, so they had to turn the place upside down to find this Cartier jewel, which they eventually did. And of course he was severely scolded by his wife.

[Carole Woolton]

And that came from what, somebody within the house at the time, that story?

[Richard Wallace]

Yes. I mean, it's a well known story.

[Carole Woolton]

And so the next part of this alleged heist is that the insurance values you say don't tally to what they were actually paid.

[Richard Wallace]

Well, I think there are two aspects. One, the insurance value was astronomic and secondly, it was paid almost immediately. I mean, I don't know what your experience is with insurers, but my God, you've literally got to bombard them to get any kind of, you know, a recompense from things which you are, you know, are just claiming. But these were, this was paid within days and they immediately fled to America on one of the Cunard super ships. Again, I think she fled with something like 85 pieces of luggage, stacks of cash and still some jewels.

[Carole Woolton]

Do you think the palace interfered with that because they wouldn't have wanted this scandal to keep dominating the headline. So they wanted it paid off, dealt with, forgotten.

[Richard Wallace]

No, I think the palace were fanning the whole thing. They wanted to get rid of him. And don't forget he and his wife, his glamorous wife, lavish tales all over the women's magazines ended up in austerity Britain in 1947, still under rationing. That was the real climax of people's, you know, antipathy towards all the Windsors. So I think, I think that the palace, well, I don't know, but if I was in that situation, I would be fanning the flames of this, of this man and this woman was so out of touch with the ordinary lives of hard working Britons.

[Carole Woolton]

So later on we're going to that you think some of these jewels actually then reappeared to be in the great auction.

[Richard Wallace]

And in some cases, according to my source in the book, some of the missing pieces were replicated right down to the inscriptions, but they weren't the genuine articles. Look, it's a huge murky issue, this whole thing of what actually of her original collection ended up in the collection that was auctioned in 1987. Don't forget that between 1937, when they got married and you know, up until the Duke died, she would borrow pieces from Van Cleef and Arpel and Harry Winston and Cartier and she would say, look, I'm appearing at this ball or whatever, wouldn't it be lovely if I wore a new creation? They said yes, of course, because they knew it was going to be, you know, just photographed much as it is, you know, the world today. So they would loan her all of this stuff and she would never give it back. They'd have to ask, repeatedly ask for these things to be returned. And when representatives of Cartier and Van Cleef turned up at the, at the auction in 1987, they recognized, because they had the documentation of some of the pieces that she had, quote, borrowed, unquote from them that ended up in the.

[Carole Woolton]

Auction and they had to buy them back.

[Richard Wallace]

Well, who knows who bought what because some of the stuff is, you know, shrouded in secrecy.

[Carole Woolton]

Now, Nicholas Rayner, who conducted the auction. Well, first of all, we should say that the auction exceeded the estimate 30 times.

[Richard Wallace]

Yes, yes. And again this, I wrote some passages in the book that again questions some of, some of this stuff.

[Carole Woolton]

You were there at the auction?

[Richard Wallace]

I was there. I didn't stay for the entire time because I was a very junior reporter on a junket with no money. Whereas all these people were washing around me, dripping with jewels and handing out cash and whatever, and I was.

[Carole Woolton]

Who were you reporting for?

[Richard Wallace]

I was reporting for the Fairfax Organization in Australia.

[Carole Woolton]

So they'd flown you over?

[Richard Wallace]

No, no, I was. I was based in the UK at that time.

[Carole Woolton]

So it must have been the most exciting thing and had this massive impression on you.

[Richard Wallace]

To tell you the truth, I was somewhat revolted by the whole thing. It was just so.

[Carole Woolton]

Richard, it was just so. You are a moment of history.

[Richard Wallace]

Yeah, well, one doesn't know that. One just knows that one's got a freebie and there's all these beautiful people around one.

[Carole Woolton]

Did you feel out of place? What did you wear? I mean, people did dress up.

[Richard Wallace]

I know I wore the only suit that I had with an overnight bag with three shirts which I ironed on a desk in a room which I was staying.

[Carole Woolton]

And did you know anything about jewelry at the time that you attended the auction, Carol?

[Richard Wallace]

You weren't around at that time. The podcast didn't exist.

[Carole Woolton]

Now you. Did you meet Nicholas Rayner, the auctioneer?

[Richard Wallace]

I saw him in action. What a guy.

[Carole Woolton]

I only met him later in his life post the sad fact he'd had a stroke. And I did go to his. His house and he had prepared something to show me which was sort of imagery of how he had, you know, described himself as a treasure hunter and hunted down some of these things to auction.

[Richard Wallace]

Yes.

[Carole Woolton]

You know, people had told me at Sotheby's before I met him how he had been the most glamorous man they knew. They said every woman in Europe was in love with him.

[Richard Wallace]

Yes. He was tall, blonde, thin, impeccably dressed by Anderson and Shepherd. Clouds of cologne would precede him when he entered a room.

[Carole Woolton]

He spoke many languages.

[Richard Wallace]

He had this off the cuff manner which was, I would imagine, just people. Well, women swooned. Men and women swooned. And he was the master of his art. And of course, he spent a lot of time in India as well, you know, ferreting out jewels from the maharajas and whatever. So he's a very well traveled man. But the auction was a real turning point in his life. He became very ill after that.

[Carole Woolton]

And you think that it was the.

[Richard Wallace]

Stress possibly of this auction strain and the stress, absolutely. And I think I describe the moments leading up to when he mounted the rostrum and the real palpable air of tension and excitement. Very few people get to experience that and then to command that. And I talk about what it's like to be an auctioneer. At these huge auctions to command that to one, one's presence fills the room. And literally to orchestrate the sales of millions and millions of millions.

[Carole Woolton]

And of course, people. It wasn't just the room. People like Elizabeth Taylor were calling from by her pool in la, and people were calling in from around the world, weren't they?

[Richard Wallace]

And there was a vast press that were contingent, of which a very tiny portion, there's this little cowering Australian boy trying to not upset anyone. But of course, I never knew all of this until obviously much later, what was, what really went on behind the scenes, and one never does.

[Carole Woolton]

And what did go on, the added stress for Nicholas Rayner. Do you think he knew any of this?

[Richard Wallace]

Absolutely. And that's the claim made by my source, is that he told Sotheby's that some of the pieces were replicas. They weren't the original pieces. They were using the same carrots, the same stones, replicated by the same jewelers who made the original jewels. But if you look at the catalogues, nowhere is this mentioned. So they were aware, but took no action. Highly controversial claim.

[Carole Woolton]

And you're saying nothing mentioned in the catalogue but, you see, suspect that these jewels therefore weren't the actual ones that marked the milestones in this famous love story.

[Richard Wallace]

This is a claim that I'm reporting in the book made by Michael Block.

[Carole Woolton]

When did Michael Block tell you that?

[Richard Wallace]

Three years ago. And he has recently reconfirmed that.

[Carole Woolton]

And how did he know? He was M. Bloom's private secretary.

[Richard Wallace]

Yes, he was actually employed by Sotheby's during. During the sale. He wrote the introduction to the catalog. He wrote stuff for their newsletters. So he was intimately involved in this right from the moment when the team from Sotheby's went to the Banque de France near the Louvre, and down into their vaults and dungeons and opened a special cage where the Duchess's jewels had been stored in their Morocco boxes.

[Carole Woolton]

And were you interviewing him for the book or did this make you write the book?

[Richard Wallace]

I was interviewing him for the book.

[Carole Woolton]

And then this came out. Which really confirmed your argument.

[Richard Wallace]

Yes, I was working for the government in intelligence services, and I was on my way out. This is about four years ago, Carol. I was on my way out. And as they usually do with someone who says they're leaving, they give them the most uninteresting, boring jobs in which to occupy their time. So they had me going over all their old paper files from the 60s, 70s and 80s and, you know, converting them into, you know, a digital copies. And I came across some Interpol reports from the 1980s about some of the Duchess of Windsor's, you know, artifacts of possessions that were being fenced, I. E. Sold in Europe. And questioning the, you know, illegitimacy of some of these sales and with these.

[Carole Woolton]

Ones taken by Metro Bloom. Because she did take a lot and resell it, didn't she?

[Richard Wallace]

Well, not only her, but the household, and not only that, but the palace was implicated in some of this. There's a story in the book about a truck that mysteriously turned up and was filled with personal papers and whatever when she was basically, you know, I just comatosed in the last few years of her life and disappeared with a truckload of personal papers and stuff and disappeared into. Into the night. A lot of things went missing. And again, this is document mentioned in the book to the extent that all of her expensive macchiage of makeup and stuff disappeared and she was reduced to using cheap alternatives.

[Carole Woolton]

But she wouldn't have known.

[Richard Wallace]

No. And that's why they probably did it, because she wouldn't have known. I mean, literally, Carol, this is, and this is the most heartbreaking and tragic part of the whole book in my view, is the looting that went on in the late 70s and the early 80s from.

[Carole Woolton]

He had no one to protect, protect her, no.

[Richard Wallace]

No family, nothing. Literally at the mercy of vultures. Because as you and your readers know, whenever there's a jewel, there's luxurious possessions. There's a maelstrom of greed that it seems to whip up. Jewels attract tragedy, greed, deception, fraud, deceit, cruelty. All of this stuff are elements of the Windsor story.

[Carole Woolton]

Do you think that any of the very well known of her pieces, like the flamingo brooch or, you know, her big Cartier amethyst bib necklace, were any of those very famous ones copies?

[Richard Wallace]

Well, I tried to get this information from the jewelers, but of course it's a, you know, very closed shop and rebuffed, rebuffed, rebuffed, rebuffed clients, you know, a confidentiality. So I have no way of knowing. It's an aspect that I would encourage someone to maybe who wants to spend some time on this, maybe taking it further than I have because I think this is only the first step. Some of this stuff, Carol, has been well known in private circles, but no one's had the guts or the courage to actually come out with it. Maybe someone else can take this, that next step.

[Carole Woolton]

The only thing I would say is that we got used and recognize in imagery the pieces that she wore and re. Wore. And I'm thinking if there was this sort of, of truckload of gems that had been effectively spirited away from the royal dungeon at Windsor, why didn't we see more? Surely there would have been more jewelry.

[Richard Wallace]

Well, I, I, as, as I said, I think what ended up in the auction in 1987 was a fraction of what she had. Who knows what was stolen? I mean, records were so bad in those days. I mean, she didn't even have an inventory of what she had had. Or maybe that was one of the papers that was stolen from the house. Maybe the actual inventory was stolen and is, and it's somewhere. There are so many tendrils of loose ends here that will take another lifetime to tie up.

[Carole Woolton]

And if people have spirited things away or Metro Bloom was selling, taking loose gemstones, there's no way to trace that, is there? You would never know.

[Richard Wallace]

We would never know. And she wasn't the only one, Carol. Really, really tragic aspect of that period. Who knows what went missing. So there's so much more to tell here. But I have only a very short life and I didn't want to spend the rest of it being welded to the Windsors.

[Carole Woolton]

And you say that from that time the auction process changed and provenances became absolute.

[Richard Wallace]

Jewels are tracked now, you know, there's, you know, a vast database. You can't suddenly say, Carol, that I've got this 50 carat blue diamond because people would say, well, there's no record of that ever existing. How did you get that? I was on a TV show with a diamond merchant. He said, no way would all that happen now. Whereas in those days, right up until 1987, records were, were vague, there were scant provinces were taken on trust, on word on who was actually guaranteeing the provenance. Carol. So if your provenance has been guaranteed by a member of the royal family, I mean, most auction houses would lap that up, wouldn't they, in those days?

[Carole Woolton]

Well, even now, you know, people want a royal jewel for sure and that's what jewels are. Extraordinary. It is that tangible link to a moment in history, a royal house. So that's why there was such a mad scramble to get hold of these jewels at the auction.

[Richard Wallace]

And I can tell you that, you know, today the two most valuable provenances for jewels are Diana and Marie Antoinette.

[Carole Woolton]

People love a tragic heroine.

[Richard Wallace]

People swoon at the thought of possessing something like that.

[Carole Woolton]

Would you put Wallis in that bracket, really, as a tragic heroine?

[Richard Wallace]

I think in America she is, I think elsewhere she probably isn't, but certainly in America she is still thought of quite rightly, as the poor girl who made good.

[Carole Woolton]

So do you think, having written the book, Richard, and I want everyone who's listening to give their views too, any way they can get hold of us. Was this accidentally done or willfully intended?

[Richard Wallace]

I would say it's a mix of both. Each case is different. And by the way, the deceit and the deception and the fraud wasn't just just practiced by the two protagonists. It's practiced by their circle of friends, the court that they had around them at the time, you know, the coterie of people that they were associated with. Everyone in some way is implicated in this story, but it all radiated out from the core. That was the relationship between the Duke and the Duchess of Windsor.

[Carole Woolton]

Well, thank you. Thank you very much for sharing it with us this, this fascinating mystery and for your research. And as I say, I want everyone to say what they think. And if anyone is out there with further information, please get hold of us.

[Richard Wallace]

Yes, look, I think there's more threads to the story than I was able to, you know, uncover, probably more maybe to even refute what I have written. And wouldn't that be good? I mean, it just keeps the whole story alive.

[Carole Woolton]

Thank you very much. Very much. Richard, thank you for joining us.

[Richard Wallace]

My pleasure.

[Carole Woolton]

Thank you for listening. For this and other episodes of if Jules Could Talk, please go to our website, carolwalton.com podcasts do share it any way you can and we love to have a rating and a comment. I try and run images on the YouTube channel. Again, it's Carol Woolton, and on Instagram, you'll find me at CarolWalton. And of course, we now have the book out. It's in the UK at the moment. It's in all good bookstores and on Amazon. It's called if Jules Could Talk, commissioned from the podcast. It'll be out in the new year in the U.S. i'll keep you posted as to the date and it's being translated into minutes languages as I speak now. And I'll keep you posted about that and join me again in two weeks for the next jewelled nugget, when I'll be joined by Solange Azagouri Partridge. We're going to find out what it's like to have a huge office overlooking the Place Vendome and have pieces in the permanent collections of several museums. She's going to talk about her career and her thoughts, famous friends. So join me then, and thank you for listening. If Jules Could Talk with Carole Walton is produced by Natasha Cowan, music and editing by Tim Thornton. Graphics by Scott Bentley. Illustration by Jordi Labanda. You can find our sponsors@ fully gemstones.com and [e-mail].