AN EDUCATION WITH THE ANTIQUE JEWELRY UNIVERSITY - SUZANNE MARTINEZ

Summary

If Jewels Could Talk with Carol Woolton Episode: An Education with the Antique Jewelry University – Suzanne Martinez
Release Date: September 5, 2024

---

Introduction: Welcoming Suzanne Martinez

In this engaging episode of If Jewels Could Talk, host Carol Woolton welcomes Suzanne Martinez, a renowned gemologist, jewelry historian, and curator from Lange Antiques Jewelers in San Francisco. Suzanne is celebrated for founding the Antique Jewelry University (AJU), a comprehensive digital resource dedicated to the study and appreciation of antique jewelry. Carol introduces Suzanne with warmth, highlighting her extensive experience since 1992 and her philanthropic efforts in promoting jewelry education and preserving design excellence.

Early Passion for Jewelry

Suzanne shares her innate passion for jewelry, which began in her childhood. She recounts living on a property adorned with boulders embedded with garnets, which she meticulously collected. By age ten, Suzanne was stringing beads, and at thirteen, she started silversmithing thanks to her high school's jewelry laboratory.

Suzanne Martinez (00:31): “It found me.”

Education and Gemological Institute of America (GIA)

Suzanne's formal education at the Gemological Institute of America (GIA) marked a pivotal moment in her career. She describes the GIA campus as a cozy, beach-adjacent environment that deepened her knowledge and passion for gemstones. A memorable experience was evaluating a stunning piece of jade brought by a Japanese dealer, which left a lasting impression on her.

Suzanne Martinez (07:31): “So we had these opportunities by being at GIA that I wouldn't have had otherwise.”

Founding the Antique Jewelry University (AJU)

Driven by her extensive appraisal experience and a thorough personal library of jewelry knowledge, Suzanne founded AJU as an online glossary. Initially a thousand-word repository, AJU aimed to serve as an encyclopedic resource for antique jewelry enthusiasts. Collaborations with fellow historians like Christy Romero enriched the content, although community contributions fell short of expectations.

Suzanne Martinez (12:40): “So that started Antique Jewelry University, that thousand word glossary.”

Features and Content of AJU

AJU has evolved into a multifaceted platform covering makers' marks, jewelry identification, famous jewelers, historical periods, gemstones, and more. Suzanne emphasizes that the most visited section is Maker's Marks, as users seek to identify the origins of their personal jewelry pieces.

Suzanne Martinez (16:47): “Do you know this mark? Can you help me identify it?”

The site includes detailed images and scans of various marks, aiding collectors and historians alike. Suzanne notes that AJU serves a diverse audience, from novices to experts, by offering a broad spectrum of information without tiered access.

Teaching and Preserving Jewelry Knowledge

Although AJU does not offer formal classes, Suzanne and her team conduct workshops and seminars on topics like dating antique diamond rings and distinguishing authentic pieces from reproductions. These sessions are hands-on, utilizing microscopes to examine subtle differences in gemstone cuts and settings.

Suzanne Martinez (18:09): “We have very specifics that here's this ring, this is what you're going to look for when you see it.”

Challenges with Reproductions and Synthetic Diamonds

Suzanne discusses the increasing prevalence of reproductions and synthetic diamonds, which pose challenges for authenticity and valuation. She highlights the importance of laboratory reports and meticulous examination to ensure the integrity of antique pieces.

Suzanne Martinez (19:53): “We send any diamond that we sell that's a carat or over, we get a GI lab report on it.”

Favorite Jewelry Periods and Styles

Art Nouveau emerges as Suzanne's favorite period, admired for its intricate designs and the infusion of diverse cultural motifs, particularly Japanese influences. She contrasts it with the Arts and Crafts movement, noting the latter's emphasis on functionality and handmade aesthetics versus the individualized creativity of Art Nouveau.

Suzanne Martinez (28:48): “I really like Art Nouveau. I think that's a time period where there was so much change.”

The Evolution and Future of Jewelry

Suzanne reflects on the historical shifts in jewelry-making techniques, such as the transition from handcrafting to CAD (Computer-Aided Design). She expresses a preference for handmade jewelry, valuing the artisanal skills that CAD cannot replicate. Looking forward, Suzanne anticipates further gemstone discoveries and a shift towards personalized jewelry creation, where consumers collaborate directly with designers.

Suzanne Martinez (43:00): “Maybe they're getting more closer and more intimate to what they want and personalizing it themselves rather than being told what to do.”

Notable Pieces and Experiences

Suzanne recounts handling exquisite pieces, including a Cartier necklace with natural pearls and emerald-cut diamonds from the 1920s, valued at approximately half a million dollars at auction. She also describes an Art Nouveau brooch adorned with black opals and demantoid garnets, emphasizing the artistic and historical significance of such pieces.

Suzanne Martinez (46:22): “It was a really fabulous necklace.”

Conclusion: The Legacy of AJU and Jewelry Education

As the episode concludes, Carol expresses gratitude towards Suzanne for her dedication to AJU and the broader jewelry community. Suzanne invites contributions to AJU, ensuring it remains a thoroughly researched and expansive repository for all things antique jewelry.

Suzanne Martinez (48:35): “It's a repository that we should all be able to contribute to.”

Carol wraps up by encouraging listeners to explore AJU and stay tuned for upcoming episodes, highlighting Suzanne's invaluable contribution to the world of jewelry education and preservation.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Suzanne Martinez (00:31): “It found me.”
• Suzanne Martinez (07:31): “So we had these opportunities by being at GIA that I wouldn't have had otherwise.”
• Suzanne Martinez (16:47): “Do you know this mark? Can you help me identify it?”
• Suzanne Martinez (28:48): “I really like Art Nouveau. I think that's a time period where there was so much change.”
• Suzanne Martinez (43:00): “Maybe they're getting more closer and more intimate to what they want and personalizing it themselves rather than being told what to do.”

---

This episode offers a deep dive into the complexities and beauties of antique jewelry through the expertise of Suzanne Martinez. Whether you're a seasoned collector or a curious novice, If Jewels Could Talk provides a sparkling narrative that enriches your appreciation for the timeless art of jewelry.

Transcript

[Dave]

This episode is brought to you by Amazon. Sometimes the most painful part of getting sick is the getting better part. Waiting on hold for an appointment, sitting in crowded waiting rooms, standing in line at the pharmacy. That's painful. Amazon One Medical and Amazon Pharmacy remove those painful parts of getting better with things like 24. 7 virtual visits and prescriptions delivered to your door. Thanks to Amazon Pharmacy and Amazon One Medical Healthcare just got less painful.

[Carole Houlton]

This episode is brought to you by Fooli Gemstones.

[Suzanne Martinez]

Because it's called a university, a lot of people think that we should have classes and we've talked about how to tier the knowledge, whether it's going to be for a novice or someone who is perhaps an appraiser or someone who is an expert that might be a jewelry historian. So we decided we're just going to offer for everyone and people are going to find their own path because we all are interested in something a little bit different.

[Carole Houlton]

I'm Carole Houlton, the voice of jewellery. Welcome to if Jules Could Talk. I'm an author and broadcaster and the woman who initiated the role of jewellery editor at magazines like Tatler and Vogue. This is a podcast for everyone, for people who do like jewellery, for people who don't realise they like jewellery, and anyone intrigued by fascinating facts, new ideas and forgotten histories. So join me as I tell sparkly tales and meet all sorts of people delving into four centuries of jewellery culture and investigate what's happening now. Today we are tuned in to to San Francisco, where I am delighted to say my guest is Suzanne Martinez, who is a gemologist, jewelry historian and curator. Since 1992, she's been with Lange Antiques Jewelers in San Francisco. And she is the woman who founded the Antique Jewelry University, which we're going to find out more about today, and is a great philanthropic act for all of us who love jewellery. Suzanne, thank you very much for joining us today.

[Suzanne Martinez]

Well, I'm happy to be here.

[Carole Houlton]

I wanted to know that when we've spoken before, I think you knew from a very early age that you wanted to work in the jewellery world, is that right?

[Suzanne Martinez]

Absolutely. It found me.

[Carole Houlton]

And how did it find you?

[Suzanne Martinez]

Well, as a child, I lived on a piece of property that had all these big boulders and they were embedded with small garnets. So I picked all the garnets out of all of the boulders and saved them. By the time I was 10, I was stringing beads. And when I was 13, I was lucky enough the high school I went to had a jewelry laboratory, so I started silversmithing. And the rest is Kind of history.

[Carole Houlton]

How did you dig them out of the rocks, these garnets?

[Suzanne Martinez]

I think I just picked them out with my fingernails.

[Carole Houlton]

Oh, my God. You can't have had anything else.

[Suzanne Martinez]

That's a long time ago. I don't really remember.

[Carole Houlton]

Probably scissors and some little thing.

[Suzanne Martinez]

Absolutely.

[Carole Houlton]

That's amazing. So you did you have a kind of family background in jewelry?

[Suzanne Martinez]

No family background at all. It kind of perplexed my dad particular. He's like, why do you want to go into the jewelry world? Because he had no idea what it was like. And really neither did I at that time. You know, when I went to GIA after college, I didn't realize the depth of the industry until I met so many people in my class that came from diverse backgrounds from all over the world. And that was kind of very eye opening. One of the things that's really true about the jewelry business is it's multifaceted. I know it's very cliche to say, but it is.

[Carole Houlton]

So your parents were a bit surprised when you were kind of busting rocks at a really young age to dig out these garnets. They can't have imagined what you were doing and why you were doing it.

[Suzanne Martinez]

Oh, I don't know about the rock part of it, because my dad's mother was a geode collector. She and my grandfather used to go down to Mexico and collect geodes. Then she'd bring them home and cut them in half. And she had quite a collection. I guess I always had a little bit of fascination for geodes, but didn't have any personal. I didn't go to Mexico with her and collect, which would have been really fun at a young age, but that wasn't a possibility at that time.

[Carole Houlton]

But she talked about them to you and you probably admired them when you visited.

[Suzanne Martinez]

Oh, yes. She didn't live that far away, but I was one of four children and later another two added to her family. So we were a busy family. Kids didn't just go traveling like they do today with their grandparents.

[Carole Houlton]

So you started making jewelry, starting with these garnets that you dug out of rocks. What kind of. You were just making beaded necklaces?

[Suzanne Martinez]

Yeah, at first it was beaded necklaces. You know, as a child, you don't have a lot of money, so I'd save all my whatevers, the babysitting money. And I. We had a great bead store in the town that I lived in. And I was just obsessed with beads for a little while. And actually, as an adult, I'm still a little obsessed with beads. I go to the Tucson Gem and Mineral show every year, and I don't think there's a year that's gone by that I haven't bought beads. I have quite a collection.

[Carole Houlton]

And what you do with them.

[Suzanne Martinez]

I had a line of bead jewelry. Let's see, that must have been in the mid-80s, that were really textural. They had multi strands with all different colors and all natural gems. So I like the tactile feel of beads. They're beautiful. They come in so many different transparencies.

[Carole Houlton]

And colors, because you think of them as the sort of simplest part of jewellery, the bead, don't you? But it has this extraordinary history.

[Suzanne Martinez]

The earliest forms of jewelry that were found were beads, you know, made of. I believe shell beads go back more than 10,000 years.

[Carole Houlton]

So we think of them as sort of like these child. Almost the simplest form of early jewelry. But actually they are hugely sophisticated and can. And have this hugely sophisticated history.

[Suzanne Martinez]

When you think about these early beads too, how did they drill them? Yeah, you know, what was the technology? Where they didn't have technology, so they were like you.

[Carole Houlton]

They were using their fingernails, probably. So you went on to study gemology?

[Suzanne Martinez]

I did. I went to the Gemological Institute of America. At the time, they had a campus in Santa Monica, California. Now it's in Carlsbad, and it's a large campus. It was a nice, small, cozy campus and it was right next to the beach. It was a lovely time. And I was absolutely hooked at that point. I had already taken some GI courses through correspondence. I had started the colored stone program, and I just realized that I needed to do it in person. I needed to go and be exposed to a far greater variety of gem materials than could be provided through a correspondence course. And in the GIA program, they have. When I was there, they had boxes, and the boxes are filled with stone papers and probably maybe 100 per box. My obsession was to go through every box for every class, and I did. But it was a great opportunity. And back then, when a dealer would come in, I'll never forget this one man came in and he was a Japanese dealer, and he brought in a piece of jade that looked like an emerald. And it was the finest piece of jade I may have ever seen in my whole life.

[Carole Houlton]

Wow.

[Suzanne Martinez]

So we had these opportunities by being at GIA that I wouldn't have had otherwise.

[Carole Houlton]

And then you have a benchmark of having seen the finest piece of jade you think you'll ever see. So you have something for the rest of your career to compare it with.

[Suzanne Martinez]

I think that's one of the things about being a gemologist. You have the tools to learn how to grade things from high to low. I mean, that's part of what we do. Even today, with myself and my colleagues and people that I'm teaching, look at this stone and tell me on a scale of 1 to 10, what its quality is and why. You know, you have transparency, you have actual color, you have saturation of color and cut is very important. And where it falls in the scale of that particular gemstone. I mean, there are some gems that are always going to be included and always going to be translucent versus transparent.

[Carole Houlton]

And did you develop a particular favoritism for one stone over any others?

[Suzanne Martinez]

Well, emeralds have always been my favorite stone. And second to that is anything orange?

[Carole Houlton]

Oh, really?

[Suzanne Martinez]

Oh, yes. I like orange garnets very much. And there's all different colors of orange garnets. That can be a Hessenite garnet that has a little bit of brown to the stone. It can be a spessertite that can be super orange, almost fluorescent orange, and kind of everything in between.

[Carole Houlton]

And the fire opals.

[Suzanne Martinez]

Oh, fire opals, absolutely. And they tend to be a little bit translucent. They're not a clear crystal. So it adds another little nuance to the stone.

[Carole Houlton]

So do you think what has absorbed you, Is it led by the stones or the jewelry? Which really. Do you feel that it's led you in your career?

[Suzanne Martinez]

It started with the stones, and now it's the jewelry. But it's a combination of both. I mean, the jewelry has to have a great stone in it, or the stone has to match the piece of jewelry. It can't be an Edwardian ring that has a Madagascar sapphire in it, because, you know, something's been changed, because Madagascar, the mines that are, you know, finding new sapphires probably are 20, 25 years old. So that's something that a lot of people aren't aware of that really has to be looked at. We see that all the time at the store. You know, we buy jewelry that we look at it and we. We disclose it. If we find that it's a marriage of some sort, it doesn't mean the jewelry is not beautiful.

[Carole Houlton]

Still, people have to know what they're buying.

[Suzanne Martinez]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Carole Houlton]

And I guess it's just that years of experience honing your eye that enables you to notice these things.

[Suzanne Martinez]

It's on my mental checklist. You know, when you do it for a long period of time.

[Carole Houlton]

Yeah.

[Suzanne Martinez]

You just kind of automatically do things. Everything goes to the microscope. And we send a lot of gems to laboratories too, because we want to make sure there's some things we can.

[Carole Houlton]

Have a second opinion.

[Suzanne Martinez]

Absolutely. And our customers want that as well.

[Carole Houlton]

So what led you to Laing Antiques?

[Suzanne Martinez]

You know, it was something I had been appraising jewelry for more than 10 years, and I'd appraised thousands and thousands of pieces of jewelry, all different kinds of jewelry, historic and not historic. And this is back before the age of the. The computer and there was no Google. So researching meant you had to have a library, you had to have books so you could find information, and you had to know people that knew more than you did. So you've created your business differently than we would today. And when I started being associated with my partner, now Mark Zimmelman, I used to buy jewelry. I lived in Hawaii, I had a business in Hawaii. And we bought a lot of jewelry from the public through our appraisals, through jewelers that we worked with. And Mark was one of the places I sold to because he and his father had an estate business in Los Angeles. So I knew when I saw something kind of what it was based on my library, but I did not have a breadth of knowledge at all. So he bought Lange Antiques and he said, you have to come work in the store. It's fascinating. You'll love it. So I started, I said, you know, I'll come a couple days a week. And that's how I started because I didn't want to let go of my appraisal business, which I loved. And I had. My daughter was like 2 years old. So I really got fascinated and I just had a voracious appetite for learning. So I just bought every book that I could. And this is kind of what led to AJU is the books that I really learned a lot from had a glossary like either section, but they were, you know, what is a chatelaine? You know, it's not like you're going to read a chapter in a book about chatelaines, but there's a little, you know, an entry about chatelaines. You start seeing this over and over in books and you get a really good idea of what a chatelaine is. And that and seeing them in person, that's just as an example. But everything was like that. So I started keeping track and writing my own descriptions. And when we started our website, we decided to put a glossary on the website. And it was about a thousand words by that time. So that started Antique Jewelry University, that thousand word glossary.

[Carole Houlton]

So then how did you progress with it? Did you keep adding to it? Did you employ people to add to it? Because it's very detailed.

[Suzanne Martinez]

It is, it is. So it's a combination of things. In the early part, you know, I was responsible for the content. I also befriended Christy Romero, and Christy was a jewelry historian here in San Francisco, in California. She was in Southern California, and she actually taught jewelry history at a junior college level, which was, like, pretty amazing that that would have even been available to anyone. And she did lectures, she did symposiums. So I attended a couple of her symposiums. And she had a timeline that was kind of like a glossary. In other words, at this point in time, this was patented. And she looked up all the patent numbers so that she knew that this class was made in 1901, this class was made in 1907. So her timeline was very specific. And unfortunately, we lost her to cancer. And before she passed, she gave me her timeline to add to Antique Jewelry University, which was a great boon to Content because it was a place to start for us to take content of. What about this patent? Should we talk about patents and how they affected the manufacturing of jewelry and when they had a date jewelry? So it was a great collaboration between us, and it enabled Antique Jewelry University to really move forward. We hired a woman by the name of Mary Borchert, and she does a lot of our writing. We started Antique Jewelry University as a wiki because our concept was, I'm not the only one that is interested in antique jewelry. Christie was clearly interested. I met a lot of people through Christie where they were clearly interested, and I thought we would all contribute content. It never happened. No one contributed content.

[Carole Houlton]

And what did you intend at that moment for it to be a big. You couldn't have known it would be such a big digital resource at the time for people. That's.

[Suzanne Martinez]

I had no idea it was going to be the resource it is today. But the original, you know, homepage was a library. So it was a library of books, which is. Was the concept. Here's a source that's kind of encyclopedic. That's what I wanted it to be, encyclopedic. And, you know, it's like any encyclopedia. You can continue to add information to it.

[Carole Houlton]

And it is. I mean, the breadth of what is covered is extraordinary. It's. I've just written a few down. Makers, marks, jewelry identification, famous jewellers, history of jewelry, gems, rocks, minerals, gemstone shapes, terms and tools, diamonds, famous diamonds, simulants, terms and definitions, how to wear, how to Shop. It's like the one stop place if you want to know more about jewellery. And I'm sure a lot of people who listen to my podcast, maybe they've discovered it and they. Well, if they haven't, they certainly will after this podcast.

[Suzanne Martinez]

Interesting. The most visited page is the Maker's Marks, because people are researching, they want to find out if they have a piece of personal jewelry, they want to find out who made it. It's an obsession of people. I get emails every day. Do you know this mark? Can you help me identify it? This is my mother's. We want to find out who made it and we can't always do that and it's not really a service that we provide, but we provide the website which has all the marks that we've researched are on there, so we have them scanned so you have a good image. If we have photographs of them on the actual piece of jewelry, we include actual photographs. Many companies have multiple maker's marks, so we'll put as many as, you know, we come in contact with. Sometimes people share them with us. I work with a lot of people in the auction world and they share maker's marks, which is really nice, but it enables people to find out more about antique Jewelry University as well and dive a little deeper.

[Carole Houlton]

So what did you think would be the most visited?

[Suzanne Martinez]

Oh, that's a good question. Well, I would say if you were a novice and you wanted to learn about antique jewelry, you need to learn about all the decorative periods, Georgian and Victorian era, you know, art nouveau and, you know, Edwardian, art Deco, all the things that we know. That's what I would expect people to want to learn first.

[Carole Houlton]

I suppose you've got people of different knowledge looking at it. Because if you've got a jeweller who wants to learn about Maker's Marks or has got a piece in and they want to understand where it's come from, or you've got somebody wanting to learn about stones. You might have hobbyists who are just interested in jewellery. So you've probably got all sorts of different types of people using it.

[Suzanne Martinez]

We do now, absolutely. But we did start with the basics and, you know, because it's called a university, a lot of people think that we should have classes and we've talked about how to tier the knowledge, whether it's going to be for a novice or someone who is perhaps an appraiser or someone who is an expert that might be a jewelry historian. So we tried, we decided we're just going to offer for everyone and people are Going to find their own path. Because we all are interested in something a little bit different.

[Carole Houlton]

Have people asked you for classes?

[Suzanne Martinez]

Oh, people think that we might offer classes and we do get that request occasionally, but we don't have classes. One of my employees is also a friend and a colleague and we teach, you know, at different conferences. We'll go and do a one to two hour and mostly it's we'll bring. Do a hands on. We'll actually bring, for example, how to date diamond rings, antique diamond rings, which there's so many reproductions. How do you tell the difference between an authentic ring and a reproduction? And the reproductions are so rampant now that it's gotten harder for me even. But we have very specifics that here's this ring, this is what you're going to look for when you see it. We set up microscopes and really teach.

[Carole Houlton]

People how to do the dating reproductions of the creation of the ring.

[Suzanne Martinez]

It is the way the ring is made. Typically the diamonds, for example, a lot of the reproductions, they use contemporary European cut diamond melle. So the small stones have characteristics. They typically have an open culet which is really found in a larger European cut, not a small European cut. So in authentic jewelry, the culet usually comes to a point on the bottom of the stone, Sometimes a little bit open, but typically comes to a point. Whereas in these reproductions the small stones have an open culet. There's a facet there, so that's a key that's just. And they all look the same and they're all cut exactly the same. You know, old jewelry, the diamonds are hand cut, They're a little irregular, they're not perfect.

[Carole Houlton]

And what about the lab grown? Do you see that coming into some antique pieces as well?

[Suzanne Martinez]

I know it's there, but I haven't seen it personally yet.

[Carole Houlton]

Okay.

[Suzanne Martinez]

Definitely know it's there because I had a colleague recently tell me that someone that he knew was buying old mountings, that maybe they were sold for gold. So he would go to the gold refiners, buy their scrap rings, the rings that were salvageable, and then recut. Synthetic diamonds, the lower quality, that have inclusions that may not be obviously synthetic, and recutting them in a European cut proportion and setting them in these stone, these rings. So buyer beware. Yeah, really going to be tricky going into the future.

[Carole Houlton]

It's a case of keeping the technology up to date to keep pace with the sort of the good guys and the bad guys. So they both need this technology. The bad guys can make it happen. And then you need technology to find it and notice it and track it.

[Suzanne Martinez]

Well, we use a lot of outside laboratories. We send any diamond that we sell that's a carat or over, we get a GI lab report on it. Unless it would destroy the mounting to take it out. For example, a very, very delicate Edwardian mounting, because a lot of the diamonds are set in a bezel. Very, very delicate bezel. And you can't really recreate that properly, so we'd never take it out. But everything else we send, you know.

[Carole Houlton]

That'S a lot of work has gone into that. It's very selfless of you. Most people would charge. Suzanne, do you realize that most people would now set up a paywall and say, you pay guys, you know, and.

[Suzanne Martinez]

That'S something that may happen in the future, but for right now, we're not charging. You know, we thought about perhaps the hallmarks, because a lot of people that are using that, looking up maker's marks and hallmarks, are professionals. They're using it for their advantage. And those people are the ones that maybe they could help us pay for it. But right now, it's still free, and.

[Carole Houlton]

You just run it on the back of the business. I tell you, one thing I really, really like about it is the timeline, the idea of what was happening in the world to inspire the designs at the time. You know, it talks about inventions, events, discoveries, technological innovations, and I think that's really nice to have that alongside so people get a greater understanding of the time in which the jewel was created.

[Suzanne Martinez]

We even have. There's a couple of videos on the website, too, that are really interesting because they kind of COVID that as well, what was happening in those times socially. And that's part of jewelry history, because.

[Carole Houlton]

Of course, fashion has such a huge influence. These things have to be made and worn in conjunction with what people are wearing.

[Suzanne Martinez]

But, you know, it's not just that. It's like, you know, women became emancipated circa 1900. You know, that's why we have the Art Nouveau. In the Victorian period, women were depicted in jewelry and a cameo, kind of very buttoned up. And then look at Art nouveau jewelry with these beautiful naked women with flowing hair, and it was a whole different thing. So that was reflected in the clothes at the time as well, all tied together.

[Carole Houlton]

So do you use the Antique Jewelry University yourself?

[Suzanne Martinez]

I do.

[Carole Houlton]

You do? It's hard.

[Suzanne Martinez]

And I would say, especially the timeline, because there are so many little details in there that I'm constantly going back and referring to. Sometimes it's just in my mind. I'll think it's 1865 and it's 1866. And I just want to get it straight.

[Carole Houlton]

And you study yourself Latin American cultural anthropology. So that's something that's interested you for years. Does that overlap with your interest in jewelry?

[Suzanne Martinez]

Well, I make it overlap.

[Carole Houlton]

Okay. Yes. And how do you do that?

[Suzanne Martinez]

I did an art history course, a Latin American art history course 10 or 12 years ago. And I did a presentation for the class where I took all the motifs from the period and the jewelry that was found in a lot of the archaeological ruins. And then I showed how Spratling used all those same motifs in his jewelry. Spratling was a jeweler who established atelier in Taxco in Mexico. And it's a tiny little mountain town. And he was an American, and a lot of expats were there during the World War. This was actually he started in, I think, 1935. But many jewelers ended up in that area that he helped establish. And it became, you know, the Tosco School of Jewelry. Basically, we could give a whole class in Taco Hole.

[Carole Houlton]

This is mainly sort of silver, turquoise.

[Suzanne Martinez]

That kind of primarily silver jewelry, more than even set with stones. And I would say one of the stones. Turquoise wasn't used that much, but amethyst were. Amethyst, I think, was one of the main stones that was used. Black onyx.

[Carole Houlton]

And what's the design of it?

[Suzanne Martinez]

Well, I think a lot of the motifs are ancient motifs, either whether from Aztec motifs or some of the other Native Americans from Mexico. I just was very interested in Latin American cultural anthropology. When I was in college, I used to travel to Mexico a lot and go to ruins and just. I just love the culture. When you go to Mexico City, you have ruins that are out in the open in the middle of the city. You have colonial times, so you have colonial buildings, and you have very contemporary buildings. Legeretto is one of the designers and he did art installations and buildings. Just incredible. And they're out in the open for people to see. So it's part of the culture, and I really like that.

[Dave]

Oh, such a clutch off season pickup, Dave. I was worried we'd bring back the same team. I meant those Blackout motorized shades. Blinds.com made it crazy affordable to replace our old blinds. Hard to install? No, it's easy. I installed these and then got some from my mom. She talked to a design consultant for free and scheduled a professional measure and install hall of fame son. They're the number one online retailer of custom window coverings. In the world.

[Suzanne Martinez]

Blinds.com is the goat shopblinds.com right now. And get up to 40% off select styles plus a free professional measure. Rules and restrictions may apply.

[Carole Houlton]

Sadly, I haven't actually visited Mexico City, but of course I'd love to go to the Frida Carlo Museum. She had quite a strong jewelry look herself, didn't she?

[Suzanne Martinez]

Absolutely. She liked pre Columbian beads. She always wore these necklaces that were heavy in beads. She had. I know that when she was younger, she wore jewelry that I think was her mother's that looked like it was very much Spanish in origin. You know, filigree, dangly earrings.

[Carole Houlton]

She was very determined to take that Latin American culture to the rest of the world, wasn't she?

[Suzanne Martinez]

Very determined. I mean, she was. She wore tehuana clothing, so she wore a Huipil type top that was embroidered with flowers, with a long full skirt. That was typically her dress. So she definitely adopted the native culture.

[Carole Houlton]

As her dress and wore it proudly when she went to the U.S. or anywhere.

[Suzanne Martinez]

And no one else did that.

[Carole Houlton]

It's amazing when you look at her now, that image that obviously is everywhere and it's obviously been used.

[Suzanne Martinez]

I don't know if you can see it. I have a. I have to get my.

[Carole Houlton]

Oh, you've got a picture of her in the background. Suzanne. That's so funny that I brought her up. Suzanne's just rushing to get the picture off the wall to show me. Oh, it's the book. Yes.

[Suzanne Martinez]

Look at the jewellery.

[Carole Houlton]

Yeah. Was that the one at the VA Museum?

[Suzanne Martinez]

No, this one was in San Francisco.

[Carole Houlton]

Oh, that was San Francisco. I mean, incredible. And just that strong look that looks so modern. At the same time, she was ahead of her time and she knew the projection of the image and how to make the image make her happy. I think a lot of it was about her own identity and how she felt about herself, wasn't it?

[Suzanne Martinez]

Well, this is what I love about jewelry, is you can find this everywhere. I mean, everyone identifies with jewelry, every person I've ever met. It's very rare that someone doesn't wear jewelry. And I think if you go back historically in time, I mean, way back to that 10,000 years ago when people were wearing shells. From there forward, I think we became human at that point when we started actually identifying, because that's individuation. This is who I am versus who someone else is by how we adorn ourselves.

[Carole Houlton]

And I think actually the simple stringing of the beads or the shells, however they did it, archaeologists would say it shows Organized human behavior. And that is the first sign of it. You obviously love Latin American culture, but what's your personal favorite period of jewelry?

[Suzanne Martinez]

I really like Art Nouveau. I think that's a time period where there was so much change. And it started, you know, with exhibitions in the 19th, late 19th century, where people became aware of other cultures. Japan was now open to the world where they had been closed, you know, before. I can't remember the exact date, but it's around 1850. And once Japan became open to the rest of the world, those design elements had never been seen before. You know, the simplicity, that. Just a nice little line that's curvilinear in water with an iris, you know, that's a classic Japanese motif. And you have that. And how did that become interpreted in Western jewelry? And it happened over a period of time. You had. Samuel Bing was an art dealer of Japanese art, and he was the one that started the Art Nouveau gallery in Paris and helped organize the artists that did this new style, new art for the exhibition in Paris in 1900. So all of those things kind of flow together. It's not just one element that created the Art Nouveau period. And then you have all these incredible jewelers and the techniques that they used. Plique, a jour is just fabulous. And I know it was done before the Art Nouveau period, but it was really done well then.

[Carole Houlton]

But it's quite an interesting time where there are so many different styles feeding into that period, aren't there, around 1900?

[Suzanne Martinez]

Yeah, I agree. I talk about this all the time in the store because everybody wants to put a period name on something. Not everything's Art Nouveau just because it was made in 1900. You know, you have the Victorian influence, and you have early Edwardian influence, and you have.

[Carole Houlton]

Which is so different because you have this. This. This whole diamond. Really, really beautiful and delicate. But it couldn't be more different to Art Nouveau, could it?

[Suzanne Martinez]

Actually, people still, they. I'll take like a Boucheron or. They didn't do Art Nouveau jewelry and yellow gold and plique, a jour. But they did take those same motifs and do them in colored stones and diamonds. I've had pieces that had gorgeous whiplash lines, all platinum, all diamond set, almost.

[Carole Houlton]

Like the garland style. Trying to get to that curvy linear way using. Using diamonds. Yeah.

[Suzanne Martinez]

So you see a lot of overlap.

[Carole Houlton]

That's interesting. I hadn't thought about that before. I've always seen them as very contrasting.

[Suzanne Martinez]

But people still wanted the new style, but they wanted it traditional. They weren't Laliques, they weren't, you know, super creative, innovative, so they were very traditional. So there was a place for both of them.

[Carole Houlton]

And then do you see the arts and crafts as very attached to art? Nouve?

[Suzanne Martinez]

I think every country was going through, you know, a new way of creating art and jewelry, and in England it was arts and crafts. So there's definitely an overlap. But I think the jewelry looks very different because it's restrained in a different way. It's more. I mean, the theory was everything was handmade, everything was going to be functional. Where art nouveau, you had artists that were at the top of their game doing incredible work. So the two are very different, in my opinion. But they came to it the same way. They wanted change. There was change in culture, in arts and crafts. You had whole communities that embraced the arts and crafts. You know, they made everything by hand. They lived in a commune type environment. But the arts and art nouveau wasn't that much. So much, it was more individuality in the jewellery.

[Carole Houlton]

I also think of arts and crafts as slightly rougher in appearance. It didn't have that perfect quality to it.

[Suzanne Martinez]

Much more of a handmade look. And a lot of the people that made it were not trained as jewelers. The later arts and crafts, yes, became more refined, but they weren't trained as jewelers. They really were learning as they went.

[Carole Houlton]

And the garland style was possible because of the use of platinum, wasn't it?

[Suzanne Martinez]

It's interesting. If you look at late Victorian jewelry, there is a lot of influence. I mean, it started with silver over gold, before it was all platinum. Very similar, you know, garlands and swirls and same motifs. They had a place where they began and it was still on the Victorian period. But platinum, because we didn't have platinum, well, we had platinum, but it was. The early use of platinum typically was fused on top of gold and you didn't see a lot of it until the oxyacetylene torch was more available, which meant we had to can oxygen and acetylene in order to create pressure, to create enough heat to melt the platinum. But also platinum was just, you know, it has a lot of tensile strength, so you were able to do these tiny, tiny knife edges and have strength in the piece of jewelry. You know, we have rings from the 1910-1920 period. They were made with a thin shank. They still have a thin shank and they don't need to be reshanked. It's still as strong as it was and people have worn it for a lifetime.

[Carole Houlton]

Wow. And also there's lovely sort of webs, spider webs of jewelry that were possible because of the thin aspect of platinum.

[Suzanne Martinez]

And you know, it's really interesting after seeing a lot of those over time. There were two techniques used to create those webs. Sometimes they would use little tiny pieces and they would assemble them all together. There's a lot of these really filigree lacy pieces that were made in the Edwardian period. There were two different ways they made them. Sometimes it was made where they took a sheet and they sawed it all out. Can you imagine making lace with a little saw blade? I can't even imagine how they did it, but I can see visually by looking at it with magnification that that's how it was made. And sometimes they took those little tiny pieces of wire and soldered them all together. It's an amazing feat. I don't think anybody could ever reproduce that jewelry again. And I don't think anybody wants to take the time to learn to do it either. These workshops had someone that just did engraving, that probably did all the mill graining on each piece. I don't know that that will ever come back. And you know, the jewelers work in cad. And I have a friend who's a CAD designer and he keeps telling me, get used to it because that's how all jewelry is going to be made. And I'm like, no, I like handmade jewelry. I'm always going to like handmade jewelry.

[Carole Houlton]

So innovation is important in jewellery. How often do you think a big innovation comes along in the world of jewellery that changes the way it's made?

[Suzanne Martinez]

Well, speaking of changes, I think the CAD has made a big change in jewelry and that's why people aren't hand making jewelry anymore. But I would say the turn of the century, around 1900, steam power and these steam engines, for example, in Providence, Rhode island in the United States, that became a big jewelry center because it was a big manufacturing center. The technology was there and the jewelry industry adapted that information. You know, they had die striking machines and the oxy acetylene torch and all those things. So that was a very important period of time for change, in my opinion.

[Carole Houlton]

Which was the death of art nouveau itself, wasn't it?

[Suzanne Martinez]

Well, it's interesting if you look historically to see, you know, I like to look. And when were gemstones found and how did that affect for, you know, alexandrite, when was it found? And demantite garnets and all these things, they, they became available and start being seen in jewelry. So you can date things that way. But as far as the manufacturing techniques, I think a lot of them have been very similar for a long period of time.

[Carole Houlton]

What was happening in 1900 that you think sparked these incredible stylistic movements?

[Suzanne Martinez]

I think it started in 1850 with the world fairs, because the innovation for people learning of what other people were doing all over the world, whether it was artistically or technologically, I think that started a big shift. You know, there was a lot of industrialization that happened around that time period, and people rebelled against it, you know, because technology meant everything was the same. Everybody was doing the same, People were going to a factory and working. You know, we lost those craftsmen that were doing milgrain on fine jewelry. They did that in that Victorian period, still had fine beadwork in some of their jewelry. And it was all. An engraver did that part of it. You know, look at these beautiful watch cases that were all hand engraved, you know, all by guilds, craftsmen, guilds. And those all started going away with industrialization. So I think it was a backlash against that. And Victoria really set the stage for world style for so long. And she was in mourning for what, 50 years, 40 years, and you know the date better than I do. But her mourning period just put a damper on everything.

[Carole Houlton]

Everything had to be black and no color.

[Suzanne Martinez]

No color.

[Carole Houlton]

So it's no wonder that that white garland style came.

[Suzanne Martinez]

People were ready in art nouveau. They were ready for change. And I think that happens historically, around the turn of a century. I don't know why, but whether people expect something to happen like our Y2K, everybody thought something was going to happen, even though it didn't. But that was the age of the computer, and that kind of technology really changed things in 2000.

[Carole Houlton]

Changed everything.

[Suzanne Martinez]

Yeah, changed everything. So there was another big change. And these shifts, I don't know whether they takes 100 years for a big shift to happen, but there definitely was a big one in 1900.

[Carole Houlton]

And there's big shifts of change do propel innovation and I think creativity.

[Suzanne Martinez]

And whether someone is going to wear a Lalique brooch or not, or they're going to see somebody when they go to the Ballets Russes in Paris wearing something like that, or they're going to see Sarah Bernhardt wearing this fabulous jewelry when she's acting, that stimulates people to doing something of their own, whether they're doing it on that scale or not. I think it opened a lot of people's eyes to, you know, that they didn't have to wear black anymore. They didn't have to, you Know, be traditional. A lot of changes started at that time period. I mean, women started playing sports and riding bicycles.

[Carole Houlton]

Smoking or a bit later. A bit later.

[Suzanne Martinez]

Oh, I think they started smoking earlier.

[Carole Houlton]

Yeah, all kinds of things. Dropping corsets.

[Suzanne Martinez]

I can't imagine ever wearing a corset.

[Carole Houlton]

Well, I don't know. A lot of people paid Vivienne Westwood a lot of money to be put in a corset. So what's going to happen in the future? What's coming?

[Suzanne Martinez]

Well, unfortunately, the synthetic diamonds have been, I think, a real negative to our business. Yeah, I mean, beautiful old hand cut diamonds are just. And they're all one of a kind and very beautiful. But contemporary diamonds are. And a synthetic diamond, if they have an excellent, excellent, excellent, a triple X cut, they look the same. It's the beautiful old jewelry that's handmade to me, that has. Or jewelry that has designed. You know, good design is always good design. I mean, you've seen a lot of jewelry. You can see good jewelry. We have a lot of people in the world. Everybody wants to have a piece of jewelry today. So how do we accommodate that? Not everybody gets to have a fine antique or a handmade piece of jewelry. You always wonder what gemstone is going to be discovered because there has been so many discoveries. I mean, look at all of like East Africa in the last 30 years. All the beautiful stones that have come out of there, all the fancy colored sapphires and tanzanite and the paraiba tourmalines that came out of Brazil. What's the next gemstone find gonna be? You know, that's different, that's unusual. You know, I look forward to things like that.

[Carole Houlton]

So we wear very differently now, as you say, we can't wear it out. Maybe we have to be more casual. So when was the last sort of great formal jewelry moment, do you think? Was it the 1900 or do you think it was like as late as 1950?

[Suzanne Martinez]

Oh, definitely. In the 1950s and 60s and 70s, I think people were able to. To wear fabulous jewelry. There were more events. I mean, even today, as we know, there are remnants. I mean, people still go to the opening of the opera and, you know, wear fabulous jewelry.

[Carole Houlton]

Not here they don't. I'm afraid. It's very dressed down here.

[Suzanne Martinez]

Really? Even for the opening of the opera?

[Carole Houlton]

Yes.

[Suzanne Martinez]

Well, here in San Francisco, I went a couple years ago and everybody was quite elegant. It was really fun. I got to wear lots of jewelry.

[Carole Houlton]

So do you take it out of the store and just wear what you have for.

[Suzanne Martinez]

Oh, yeah. Absolutely, yeah.

[Carole Houlton]

So what did you wear that night?

[Suzanne Martinez]

Oh, I had this collar. It was a big fringe and it looked kind of like an Egyptian collar, but it was all gold fringe. That was the most important thing. It was very dramatic. And I had. My gown was, you know, gold brocade. So it was just. That was really fun.

[Carole Houlton]

And when was it made?

[Suzanne Martinez]

Probably the 1940s or 50s, mid century.

[Carole Houlton]

So do you think there is a style now, A definitive jewellery style now?

[Suzanne Martinez]

I don't think so.

[Carole Houlton]

How would you describe it on Antique Jewellery University then? Our moment or will you have to wait for a few years to identify?

[Suzanne Martinez]

We have to wait a little bit for it to settle out. You know, I see a lot of young people want, you know, a teal colored sapphire from Sri Lanka. And I think one of the things that's happening in our industry is people are working direct with the public. For example, a mining company is selling direct to the public. People are going direct to the designer to make their jewelry for them rather than going to a retail jeweler and finding things in that jewelry shop or working directly or work with them. So I think there's a shift happening right now in how people are buying their jewelry. Maybe they're getting more closer and more intimate to what they want and personalizing it themselves rather than being told what to do when they go into a jewelry store. Here's a selection or, you know, seeing it on Instagram. Here's what people are, other people are doing and what I should be doing.

[Carole Houlton]

Because it's popular and are there any designers you've seen who you think are names that might make it onto the Antique Jewelry University site in the future?

[Suzanne Martinez]

We haven't caught up yet. 70s as far as.

[Carole Houlton]

Oh, you're in the 70s. Okay. Well, people have got time. People have got time. And do you find that frustrating? I think I'd find that frustrating. It's like gardening. You can never finish it. You're always going to be adding to it.

[Suzanne Martinez]

Oh, I think that's great because it always gives you something to look forward to. One of my personal passions that we touched on a little bit earlier is circa 1900 because it covers so many different stylistic, you know, endeavors at the same time. And I would love to, I don't want to call myself and say I'm going to write a book, but I think it would be really great to have all in one place things that were happening at circa 1900 because that's.

[Carole Houlton]

The moment that you think some of the best jewelry was created.

[Suzanne Martinez]

Oh, I definitely think a lot of the best jewelry is created, you know, but there's some great, incredibly fabulous art deco jewelry. I would say the best jewelry was made by 1940s.

[Carole Houlton]

So between what that sort of Belle Epoque 1890 to 1940 and even earlier.

[Suzanne Martinez]

I mean, I appreciate beautiful old Victorian jewelry because look at the archaeological revival. I mean, you have all these different, very specific design trends within that time period. So it's always hard to say it's Victorian. You know, revival jewelry isn't Victorian. It was made in the Victorian period. So we use terms incorrectly, I think.

[Carole Houlton]

Is there the greatest piece of jewelry that you've handled?

[Suzanne Martinez]

I've been so fortunate to handle some really great pieces of jewelry. I think the most valuable piece of jewelry that came my way was a very special piece of jewelry. And it was a Cartier necklace that was all natural pearls and they were very large. In between each pearl was a diamond rondelle, which is a flat bead and it had a faceted edge and it had a clasp with a large seaming. I wasn't going to take it out and send it to Gia, but seemingly perfect emerald cut diamond. And the necklace was made in the 20s, and that was a really fabulous necklace.

[Carole Houlton]

And what was the value of it?

[Suzanne Martinez]

Probably that piece sold at. We sold it at auction because that was the. The only place to sell natural pearls at the time. It was 20, 25 years ago. And it's all relative. At that time, it was about half a million dollars.

[Carole Houlton]

Hopefully you'll see it again one day.

[Suzanne Martinez]

You never know. That's the piece that stood out. But there are other pieces that may not be that valuable, but that were fabulous. Absolutely fabulous.

[Carole Houlton]

Like what? Can you name one?

[Suzanne Martinez]

All Art nouveau. My favorite pieces are all Art nouveau.

[Carole Houlton]

Okay.

[Suzanne Martinez]

We had a piece that was. It's about 3 inches tall, and it was made up of black opals, and it was kind of a flower with a drape down at the bottom. And it was set with lots of little tiny wires. It was all in yellow gold. The wires were all punctuated with the tiniest demantoid garnets I'd ever seen. And it was an incredible piece of jewelry. And it didn't. We had it for two years before we sold it. It's not for everybody. Some of these pieces are just. They're works of art. But when people collect them, they don't think. I think of this. I have pins and shadow boxes and I put them on the wall so I can look at them. So when you're wearing a pin, you don't get to see them.

[Carole Houlton]

So was Rene Lalique, your favorite designer of Nouveau? Definitely one of them, yes. We did a podcast a little while ago all about Rene's life, but any others at that time?

[Suzanne Martinez]

We had one piece that was. And unfortunately now, if that piece came in, I would have to just put it in my personal collection. But because ivory is illegal, we can't buy it or sell it. It was an ivory. Ivory and gold mermaid. And she was big. She was about this big and she was just incredible.

[Carole Houlton]

And what was she on a necklace or.

[Suzanne Martinez]

It was a brooch. You know, a lot of these pieces are brooches, but she. That's one piece that. Both of those two pieces I just described are the kind of pieces that I should have kept them. But you can't keep everything. And I find as much pleasure, really in finding a new home for someone who really appreciates and loves a piece like that than keeping it.

[Carole Houlton]

I want to thank you very much, Suzanne, for joining me, and not only for joining me, but thank you on behalf of all jewellery lovers for creating the Antique Jewelry University.

[Suzanne Martinez]

Well, it's been something that's been my passion and my pleasure. And if anybody has any fabulous articles that they would like to contribute, we are always looking for content to add. We're open to that. You know, everything that we do has been thoroughly researched. It's primary research from primary sources. So that's kind of our criteria. But it's a repository that we should all be able to contribute to.

[Carole Houlton]

Well, thank you. I'm sure there's some people listening who will do that.

[Suzanne Martinez]

Wonderful.

[Carole Houlton]

Thank you so much, Susan.

[Suzanne Martinez]

Thanks, Carol. Bye bye.

[Carole Houlton]

Thank you for listening. For this and other episodes of if Jules Could Talk, please go to our website carolwalton.com Podcasts do share the episode any way you can and we'd love to have a rating and a comment. You can find us on YouTube. And I'm arolwalton on Instagram. Keep your eyes peeled. We have a book of the podcast if Jules Could Talk, coming out on September 26, published by Simon and Schuster. And join me again in two weeks for the next jewelled nugget, when I'll be talking to someone described by Vogue magazine as England's most eccentric dresser. He is a jewelled work of art himself. So join me then to hear his story and thank you for listening. Bye bye. If Jules Could Talk with Carol Woolton is produced by Natasha Cowen. Music and editing by Tim Thornton. Graphics by Scott Bentley. Illustration by Jordi Labander. You can find our sponsors at fullygemstones.com and [e-mail].