← If Jewels Could Talk with Carol Woolton
If Jewels Could Talk with Carol Woolton
COSTUME AND JEWELS WITH "ENGLAND'S MOST ECCENTRIC DRESSER", DANIEL LISMORE
00:50:07
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- [00:01]
A
We're so done with New Year. New you this year it's More youe on Bumble. More of you shamelessly sending playlists, especially that one filled with show tunes. More of you finding Geminis because you know you always like them. More of you dating with intention because you know what you want and you know what? We love that for you, someone else will too. Be More you this year and find them on Bumblebee. This episode is brought to you by Fooli Gemstones.
- [00:36]
B
I thought, should I wear the. The hat with the brooch? With the brooch and the headpiece and the sticks on my face? And I thought, why not? So I know Coco Chanel said, take one thing off, I might put 100 things on.
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A
So it changes every day.
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B
Changes every day.
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A
CAROL I'm Carole Walton, the voice of jewellery. Welcome to if Jewels Could Talk. I'm an author and broadcaster and the woman who initiated the role of jewellery editor at magazines like Tatler and Vogue. This is a podcast for everyone, for people who do like jewellery, for people who don't realise they like jewellery, and anyone intrigued by fascinating facts, new ideas and forgotten histories. So join me as I tell sparkly tales and meet all sorts of people delving into four centuries of jewellery culture and investigate what's happening now. I am welcoming the British fabric sculptor designer who's been described by Vogue as England's most eccentric dresser. I have Daniel Lismore with me in the office in the if Jules Could Talk office. Daniel, thank you for joining us today.
- [01:53]
B
Thank you for having me. I'm not guilty of that title, but thanks.
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A
You don't think you're eccentric?
- [01:59]
B
No.
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A
Okay. I think the listeners can decide this as the conversation progresses. Basically, Daniel is a walking work of art. His flamboyant dress sense serves as a form of statements, sculpture and sometimes even armor. He's a self confessed jewelry junkie. And we're going to talk about the importance of costume today. But first of all, Daniel, let's hear what you've got on today. He is a vision of gold in front of me.
- [02:29]
B
I have a few, probably about 100 different things on some fabric which I made in lockdown. I had all this broken jewelry in lockdown and I got it all out and I, I got some of these beautiful fabrics and start painting on them and then started to embellish all these memories of me going out and breaking the jewelry and just sticking everything on. So a lot of things I wear, they have different memories for me. And this piece from Naples, this things from Taipei, Kenya, all Kinds of like broken junk.
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A
And you sew it on the fabric.
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B
So will glue.
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A
So will glue. There's a lobster slightly heading up towards his armpit.
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B
This was on a broken tiara and I decided to turn it into a brooch. Now it holds my champagne. If I need hands free at a party.
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A
Oh, I see. It's tentacles that come out of it.
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B
Yeah. And I also have this blue necklace which holds my phone bag or champagne glass.
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A
That's pretty handy. You know, decorative things can have a function.
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B
They do.
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A
And then you've got almost like a lord mayor, who's been a lord mayor for a very long time. You've got all these huge gold medallions all across your chest.
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B
Yes. And I have one of these earrings. I had a fashion label called Sorrelpole. I was a creative director and we laser cut all these and gold plated them. And these were for a show, but I now wear them as, like, accessories.
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A
Loads of rings. How many rings?
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B
Loads. I was just given this beautiful cross ring by the Stephen Arnold Archive. And when I was 17, I discovered his work. And he would create collages out of jewelry, anything. And this was his ring. And it's in all the famous pictures of him. And. And because I was so obsessed with.
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A
Him, Tell everybody who's Stephen Arnold.
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B
So he's a great photographer from the 70s. He was around with the coquette movement, and he would create these stunning black and white images of these amazing like, I mean, you have to look him up, like he's. I think he needs to be rediscovered. But these artworks, and he spent hundreds of hours curating them, painting people. I just got obsessed with him and aesthetic kind of. I kind of stole it. And I admit it. Also, I found the works of David LaChapelle. So I then questioned reality of why, you know, we're sold all these things and we see all these fabulous people in these advertisements. We don't look like them and we're never going to look like them. So I kind of like the idea of challenging that. So my brain started to form when I was 17 and I started to wear lots of jewelry and. And then I stole. My first diamonds were from my mother and I stole them. It was a Victorian rose gold and pearl pin. And I wore it out one day and she was like, oh, that looks familiar. And I called her up this morning telling her that I was doing this podcast and she said, I just. Just wonder when I'll get that back or should I have to report it missing to the police?
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A
And I was Just like, oh, should keep waiting, Mommy. What did she say when you started dressing so flamboyantly and taking her jewelry and wearing it?
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B
She was very open to it. She didn't mind. My dad was an antiques dealer, so he would bring all these beautiful things home. So I always learned when I was a kid, I was learning about jewelry and my dad loved jewelry too. He would have had lots of gold. And he gave me this signet ring.
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A
Coin. It looks like a coin coin. Is it an English coin?
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B
It's an English coin, yeah. So he would bring all these. Know, he had big diamonds on his hands and he wore lots of gold and my mum wore lots of gold and had things commissioned and made and put family members on them and passed away. And I just became obsessed with jewelry. And then I. I would make my own jewelry. So I'd buy beads and things and start sewing them. And it got more elaborate when I moved to London, but I would. I would find like fuses and put crystals on them and turn them into crosses and add feathers. And I was looking at Robert Mapplethorpe's work and I was looking, I was thinking very similar what I was doing when I was, you know, 16, 17.
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A
So you had a different style then?
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B
A very different style from the age of probably 14. And my image started to develop from then. I would wear my mum's orange Elizabeth Arden makeup and go out wearing lots of jewelry and ripped clothes.
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A
So it was more kind of tougher. Punker.
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B
It was a bit punker, yeah. And then it just evolved. And then I found the queer nightlife in Birmingham and everyone was also orange.
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A
So you drop the orange.
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B
Fabulous hairs. My hair started to change and things just developed from there.
- [07:03]
A
But today, how would you describe your look today? To me, you look like this really amazing, regal Mongolian princess or queen.
- [07:13]
B
Thank you. I guess I've been inspired by probably hundreds of thousands of images that I've seen through my life. You know, we read books and look at Instagram all day. And this, the look I'm wearing now is my body's a canvas and I kind of paint an image of what I want to look like today. So, for example, the spaghetti looking headpiece I'm wearing.
- [07:34]
A
The one that comes in front of your face?
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B
No, the one on top.
- [07:37]
A
Oh, yes. Now, there are several headpieces, I might tell you. So there's sort of one like a silver band over your forehead with a big decorative ornament in the center. A golden metal bird's nest.
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B
Yeah, I actually had a bird in there. I Went to the shot of my mom in Hollywood and a bird stayed with me for the day, and I let it stay there.
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A
I posted the images and then a sort of diamante, emerald, more traditional tiara on top of that.
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B
Yeah, I love broken tiaras and I always stack them together. But I made one of these for Nicki Minaj, and I made one for me. And it was meant to be a necklace, the spaghetti looking thing. And in the video Freedom, she ended up wearing it on her head. And I thought, you go, Nikki. So I thought, okay, I'll wear up my head as well. So. And then the. The. The face piece is by Victoria Grant.
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A
So this is like red glittering pickup sticks, which are interesting box around your face so no one can get too near you.
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B
Not too near, no. I think I learned that from Isabella Blow. I learned quite a few things, but she said she would wear things so people really couldn't get near her. And I love the idea.
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A
Izzy Blow was the late, great fashion editor who I worked with at Tatler. I think years ago. She was on Vogue and then Tatler, and the one who, you know, wore galleons in full sail on her head and, I mean, had to catch a cab every day into Tatler because she had ball gowns on high, sort of Marie Antoinette slippers, and literally, so she'd sort of teeter down the corridor. She was incredible.
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B
I worked with her the last year of her life, and I photographed her wardrobe. But not the hats. She told me not the hats, but she let me wear them. And she told me to always wear red lipstick, so that. That's my due.
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A
Yeah. She told me to wear hats because I don't wear hats. She said, you've got to wear hats, Carol. I said, I can't. I don't want to draw attention to myself like you do. She loved it.
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B
Yeah, she did. She did. She was extraordinary. Yeah. So the. The visor I had a few years ago, I borrowed from Victoria, and then I. I wrecked it a bit, but Naomi Campbell wore it. And so for Naomi's opening at the vna, I decided to wear this. And I put it on my head.
- [09:46]
A
But then nobody could kiss you.
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B
No one could kiss me. No. And I was. I decided as a concept for that to wear a kilo of gold around my neck.
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A
This was Naomi Campbell's opening at the VA Museum of her exhibition. That's still on.
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B
Yeah. It's incredible. So a friend of mine lets me wear their jewelry.
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A
So you wore a kilo of gold, but that's heavy.
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B
It's very heavy. I. I love the weight.
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A
But so how. How was it around ranged over your body?
- [10:13]
B
I had lots of gold around my wrists, loads of rings. I had some massive necklaces on with giant stones in, and then some on my head as well, with an uncut Indian diamond brooch on my forehead. And I was very scared to kind of walk outside the V and A that night. But sometimes, you know, I wear real things. People don't know if they're real or fake, so I guess they assume they're not real. But I tell. I whispered in Naomi's ear, everything is real, and it's an homage to you.
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A
So did you start when you were, like, 14 and you started to experiment? What were you trying to project? Were you saying, I want to be like, the punk scene, or, I want to be different. I want my own look?
- [10:55]
B
I loved history, and I loved King Henry VIII and Queen Elizabeth's styles. And I was looking through history books as a kid, and I. I just questioned why we changed. And then I looked into it quite early, and it's. I think, the Victorians. Ever since the Victorian times, nothing has really changed. Like, we all wear the same things all the time, and it was just questioning the. The world we lived in. I guess it was rebellious in a way, but not intentionally. But I just wanted to look like myself, and I was obsessed with different tribes. And when. When the Internet came out, I started looking at people from all over the world, thinking, we're so boring in England. Like, you know, we don't even dress like our history anymore. Like, obviously, I didn't realize there was social classes and things. I was only young, but I love costume. And then Fashion TV was on, and there was a, like, Galliano McQueen showing and all those incredible g. All those shows. And I thought, well, you know, I could pull that off. And. And then I started making my own things. So that's where it started. It wasn't thinking, I want to be different. It was like, I just want to.
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A
Just dress how I want to and be yourself.
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B
Myself.
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A
That yourself is very regal. And do you think you were born in the wrong century?
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B
I don't know. I. I like living today because we're looking back. I'd love to have been born in the future. Who knows what's going to happen? I'm too soon.
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A
Okay, you're too soon. Not too.
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B
Maybe late, maybe. Or maybe I'm really late.
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A
And do you think that we should all make more of an effort?
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B
Why not? I mean, most. A lot of people come to me. And they go, I just want to dress like this, but I can't. I'm like, yes, you can. Don't be ridiculous. Put it on. Why not? What? Someone's going to say something good. You know, they've noticed you. You're here. You're alive on earth. You are allowed. That's how I see it. And it's. It's like, it's okay. And if you don't want attention, you.
- [12:43]
A
Don'T need to, because we've had Daphne Guinness on the podcast. And I asked Daphne, I said, she's very brave. And she said, no, I'm not brave. I don't see it as brave. But I think to. To look so different, to have people look at you as you walk down the street is quite brave.
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B
Yeah, I'm going to be. It may sound a bit strange, but since the age of 13, 14, I've always been really tall. My face is a bit interesting sometimes to look at. And then I became a model, and it didn't matter what I wore, like a tracksuit or whatever, people would look at me. And when I was younger, it would, like, be men and women looking at me for different reasons. I didn't like that. It was. You know, people were always trying to pull me wherever, and I got to London and I was like, wow, this is crazy. So people look at me anyway, and if I wear a tracksuit now, I look like Vicky Pollard. And they. They're going to say something so I can't escape, so I may as well give them a reason. But. But they do. I'm. I'm six foot four. I'm quite big, and I don't know, my whole career has been based around my face. So it's just interesting how people perceive you. And. And I've learned not to take it personally. And I think it's none of my business. You know, I'm just doing my own thing. It's.
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A
Well, it can be admiring looks. Yeah, it's admiring looks.
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B
Admiring, hating all kinds of. Or lack of understanding and wanting to know, wanting to learn. And I. I think it's part of life. Some people, I guess, will be stared at for all kinds of reasons. And it's. It's a weird thing because someone said, oh, you like a peacock? You like being looked at? And it was like, actually, it's. I'm more like an ostrich wearing lots of all these plumes. And then I'm digging my head in the sand thinking, no one can see me. I think I'd be An ostrich if I was a bird. But it's not. I don't do this for. For people to look at me. I just. I do it really for myself and, and then everything I wear, I, I learned that people admire it and they like it and they. They're FAS buy it. So I, I started a. An exhibition which has been touring around the world.
- [14:41]
A
That was at the V and A, wasn't it?
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B
It was at the VA last time it was shown. There's a few more exhibitions coming up in Europe and I decided to put everything on display and there was 7, 000 objects in 64 sculptures. Life size versions of me. And they've been traveling around the world. Different. Different places. Conservative and not.
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A
These are your different looks.
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B
Yeah. So it's my collection of jewelry at Couture. Like there's even been liners. There's. There's rubbish in there. There's. There's things from my travels all over the world. I've been very lucky to travel to different places. So I gave it to the public and I can't wear these things anymore. I really want to. I'm doing a shoot this week for a cover of something and I'm like, I really want to wear that headpiece but I can't out because it's in the museum show. So for me, I've. I've given that to the public to, to take on and do with what, what they wish of, you know, they can take it how they like.
- [15:28]
A
And will it stay in the V archives?
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B
I am working on putting it all into one place. I don't sell them. For me, they're public display and I'm working on trying to figure out where it's going. I have a few ideas. My dream is to buy my old house back. Where I grew up, it was half Tudor and Victorian and to turn it into a museum and leave everything in there and leave it to the country and hopefully some institution will look after it. Or maybe not.
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A
Where is that? Where is the house?
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B
Midlands. A place called Fongli. It's like a very medieval kind of built village and it's. My house was this big place right in the middle and it has so much character and it's where I grew up and it's, you know, it's where I'm from, so I just thought it'd be perfect there. But we'll see.
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A
So Daniel, you. You are actually clinking and I can hear everything slightly rattling together as we talk.
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B
Yeah. So for me it's about Visuals, scent. I make my own perfume. And one of the most. The funnest things is when I walk. Sometimes I walk, I can hear myself. And I go to a rhythm sometimes, so you can actually hear me coming. And I did a soundscape with Einar Orne, who did the sugar cubes of Bjork for my exhibition in Iceland. And we recorded all the sounds of my jewelry from all the sculptures. And it's now in a sound loop when you go into the show. But it's a weird thing how when I'm walking, I'm hearing literally that crystals jingle on my tiara. And I love just hearing the jewelry. It's. It's beautiful. For me, it's kind of therapeutic in a way. But people always do turn ahead. They go, what's that noise? So I always found that fascinating.
- [17:07]
A
You announce yourself before you arrive.
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B
I mean, sometimes people say, I can smell you before I see you. And I hope that's a good thing.
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A
How do you know that you've finished an outfit? Because it is a. You're a living, breathing sculpture. How do you know when you come to the end? Or is it just adding things on a. Never ending?
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B
I. I guess it's like a painting. It's like, when do you finish? Like, it's when there's a right combination of color and texture, I think. And then sometimes today I added the embroidery and the gold necklace because I was like, I'm going to see you today. So I just stuck those on too. And then I was. I was looking at this going, I should talk about this as well.
- [17:49]
A
We haven't got a glass of champagne to pop in.
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B
It's no glass of champagne. This is like a bendy necklace. And I thought, I'll wear that as well, because I've got blue one. And then. And I thought, should I wear the. The hat with the brooch? With the brooch and the headpiece and the sticks on my face. And I thought, why not? So I know Coco Chanel said, put everything well, so takes one thing off. I might put 100 things on.
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A
So it changes every day.
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B
Changes every day, yeah. And. And sometimes I do take something off, if it really does. It's all about the color, though.
- [18:20]
A
So you started modeling at a young age, and that took you around the world?
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B
It did at the beginning. My first modeling job actually was a lemovogue shot by Phil Pointer. And I was wearing £5 million of blue diamonds. And I, I'm. I was from a small village. I didn't know what was going on There were these security guards that wouldn't let me go to the bathroom, like. And I was like, what is this thing that I've just signed myself up for? And I remember working with Phil and he was like, could you do this pose? And someone said on set, you look like one of Oscar Wilde's rent boys. And I was like, oh, I. I was obsessed with Oscar Wilde. So I thought it was a. So that I channeled that look for a while. And I had a dandy period where I would wear like brooches and things and my dad's jewelry and.
- [19:07]
A
And then after modeling, and then after.
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B
Modeling, I. I decided I. I went to work at Vogue. I was terrible. British Vogue, Vogue, Russ. They also had the Vogue Knip on offices there. And it was Anna Harvey.
- [19:21]
A
Anna Harvey, Yeah. This is a great late, late Anna Harvey, who was a Vogue fashion editor for years, and then she spearheaded Vogue International and sort of opened up Vogue Russia, Vogue Korea. I mean, so many around the world. She was responsible for.
- [19:40]
B
She. She would come into the office and I. I'd be sitting right outside her office and she would look at me and just kind of smile. And I think she admired some of the things. And then some days she would put an invite on my desk and I was like, oh, my gosh.
- [19:53]
A
Anna Harvey couldn't have been more classic if she tried. I mean, navy blue, down, up to the neck down, long sleeves, very, very chic, but plain. So to have you both in the same office must have been quite amusing.
- [20:06]
B
Yeah, it was. And I remember not sleep, I slept in the loo because I had so much work to do. I didn't like that job.
- [20:12]
A
So you didn't stay there long? Out of Vogue?
- [20:15]
B
No. And then I went to work in nightlife, the London nightlife scene. Everyone from David Bowie to Boy George, even Gaga, they've all been through it, you know, Mick Jagger, all these incredible people and they've. They've been part of that. And I ended up being, I guess, one of the main characters of that scene. And I threw elaborate parties for years and had the club kids. And I think I was one of the first people to put everybody together like royals and club kids and bag ladies and literally from so the Hare Krishna's turned up. Like, I'd put everyone in the room and everyone would be like, what is going on? And they would have the best nights ever. And then my look every week I'd spend like the whole week coming up with the concept and the outfits and they got bigger. There was a 6 foot by 12 foot look once it was like a Donald Duck. I put a mannequin on so I could see through like the tummy piece. And then I started working with Nicola from Machete. He lived underneath me in the flat downstairs. He would then teach me how to layer and add jewelry pieces by.
- [21:14]
A
So, like, what. What were his tips?
- [21:18]
B
Just to stack and add more. Because my. Some of the concepts were like, really well, like they were made to look like that. And then they became a bit more. The outfits became a bit more freer over time. And he would like, put this there, put that brooch there, put this there, stick this necklace like this.
- [21:36]
A
So is it work in progress or do you actually sketch a look and figure and plan?
- [21:40]
B
I don't sketch. There's a reason and it's all changed this year over the past year. But my art teacher told me I couldn't paint and I couldn't draw and I somehow have done operas and all kinds of things, had a fashion label without drawing. And I just made and I just kind of used words. Even though I'm a visual person, I just wouldn't write anything down because I was actually scared. And then my therapist this year said, why don't you paint and draw? And I looked at him like a crazy person. I was like, I don't do that. And the last year I've been. It's what I'm doing at the moment, painting and sketching. And now I'm showing in museums, which is mad. All my paintings have jewelry in them, so I can't get away from the jewelry. But. So I never really sketched or painted. And when I did the opera with the English National Opera.
- [22:31]
A
So what was that you. You curated or you designed an opera?
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B
Yeah, I designed the Mask of Orpheus by Harrison Birtwistle and it hadn't been done since the 70s. And there were three versions of Orpheus and Eurydice or Eurydice or however you want to say her name on stage at once. It was pretty crazy. I worked with Daniel Kramer. We worked for two years on the opera and then a year making and we had Swarovski sponsor us. We had 450,000 crystals. Hand placed them all.
- [23:00]
A
Was that enough for you?
- [23:01]
B
It wasn't it. I did ask them all. I went to sleep to come up with these concepts. So I listened to the music and started dreaming. And what I do is get the notepad on my tummy and a pen in my hand with a hairband and when I start to like fall asleep and trip whatever that word is when you start to get visuals. I made some squiggles, and I look with one eye, look at the squiggles and go. That means this, that means that. So when I go back, you have to fall back asleep. When you wake up, you look at the squiggle and you go, okay, that is that visual. And then I had to write the visuals down in words, what it meant as much as I could. And then I would try and describe to the team and then get a mannequin and then start draping. And I go, this is what it's like. And I don't use reference boards either. Mood boards. I always think of stealing, like, stealing boards. So throughout my time creating with other people, I can't use them. Because when you put one of those mood boards in front of someone, they take it so literally.
- [24:03]
A
You're right. They're always got just past references. So you're not creating from scratch.
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B
Exactly. So I was. I was very fortunate to have done this opera. And people said they'd never seen anything like it, and I was so happy. That was like the best thing that anyone could have said.
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A
And that's when they were still in London.
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B
Yes. Yeah, yeah. But it was a mad show. And now all those costumes I own and they go into my exhibition every time it's shown somewhere. Okay, so. And I've worn them out as well.
- [24:31]
A
So where was that when you were doing the fashion label at the same time?
- [24:35]
B
This was after.
- [24:36]
A
That was after the fashion label?
- [24:37]
B
Yeah, the fashion label. We met great jewelry. We designed it and got it made by a great designer called Nico Yang in Taipei. And she would. She would just come up with these incredible things. Like, I'm wearing one of the rings. I lost a pearl the other week at the V and A. I dropped it. There were the real versions and the crystal versions. And I. I've still got all the jewelry. So that's now in my exhibition. One of my sculptures is draped in emeralds and diamonds. And then there's the fake versions in there. People don't know what's real, so that's kind of interesting to me.
- [25:07]
A
And how long did the fashion label last?
- [25:09]
B
It's still going, but I. I left. I think we did 12 shows with them.
- [25:14]
A
What, six seasons?
- [25:15]
B
Yeah.
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A
Yeah.
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B
We were dressing people like Mariah Carey and Nicki Minaj. And we were invited.
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A
What's it called?
- [25:21]
B
It was called Sorrel.
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A
Sorrel, yeah.
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B
We. We were invited into the world of haute couture. Like the actual syndicate. The people that made the artisans and it was just because of how I dressed and I. I think they were fascinated and we got to learn via them. I never had any training. I didn't really go. I studied photography at college and then gave it all up to be a model. Oh, such a clutch off season pickup, Dave. I was worried we'd bring back the same team.
- [25:46]
A
I meant Those blackout motorized shades lines.com made it crazy affordable to replace our old blinds. Hard to install. No, it's easy.
- [25:53]
B
I installed these and then got some for my mom. She talked to a design consultant for free and scheduled a professional measure and.
- [25:59]
A
Install hall of fame son. They're the number one online retailer of.
- [26:02]
B
Custom window coverings in the world.
- [26:04]
A
Blinds.com is the goat shoplines.com right now.
- [26:07]
B
And get up to 40 off select.
- [26:08]
A
Styles plus a free professional measure.
- [26:10]
B
Rules and restrictions may apply.
- [26:12]
A
And dealing in objects is another string to your bow, isn't it, Daniel?
- [26:16]
B
Yeah, I. I guess it was inspiration from my dad and I. I had a friend who was dealing art and jewelry and one day he sent me. He said, oh, we got these to sell. And I was like, okay, who could buy these? One was the black Star of Queensland, which is just this stunning gem, like an iconic gem. And then the other thing was a. The Swan Lake necklace set from that belonged to Princess Diana. And just reading up on these amazing pieces, I. I learned so much about jewelry through that job.
- [26:48]
A
Well, Princess Diana owned it.
- [26:50]
B
She owned it. Yeah. Yeah.
- [26:51]
A
And why was it for sale?
- [26:53]
B
I don't. It was a private collector. He would go to private people and they would sell these pieces.
- [26:59]
A
And Swan Lake was it when she danced with Wayne Sleep?
- [27:02]
B
Yes. But she didn't wear the earring. She only wore the necklace. So that. That was also interesting to learn about jewelry. And I remember working with Bulgari as well. I was a bit of an ambassador for them. Still do wear their things. And when I did a campaign for them and I started stacking their rings and they were like this is cool. And then they made it a thing in for their celebrities to stack rings now. So they do, which is kind of a cool thing. But I learned so much working with them. There was a project in Rome that me. Me and a few other people went out to do and we had to make a film about Bulgari's jewelry. And I've always been obsessed with Elizabeth Taylor. I'm so obsessed with her. Like this crazy.
- [27:44]
A
Join the club.
- [27:46]
B
Her and her jewelry and the stories and.
- [27:49]
A
Yeah. And we've done a whole podcast on all her stories.
- [27:52]
B
Amazing.
- [27:52]
A
Yeah.
- [27:52]
B
I need to listen to that. And so I learned so much about that. And Izzy told me, Isabella Blow, she said, all clothes need a life, and you've got to give them a life. And when I was going through the exhibition, I thought, these things have seen some life. I just wonder what things we don't know.
- [28:09]
A
Everything you do has to do with costume. Really?
- [28:12]
B
Yeah. I mean, I guess costume is an inspiration. I don't see it as a costume anymore. Like, I don't think I ever did. I think it's just my version of a T shirt and shorts and T shirt and jeans, you know, but also.
- [28:24]
A
Picking up ideas and references from other people's costume around the world.
- [28:30]
B
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm very lucky that I've. I lived with the Masai in the Samburu for a while, and I worked for a charity when I was quite young, and I worked with women's groups out there, and I went to revisit in 2017, and these women's groups were, like, thriving. So I worked with them when I was. I think I was 19 or 20, and I thought my life was so ridiculous that I had to go and do something good. So I took photographs for the charity, and then also with modeling money, I kind of helped build toilets and facilitate schools and things. I would sit with the ladies and go, oh, what about this shape? Or what? What about this shape? And I remember messaging Diane Pernet going, I. I'm going to make you some jewelry. And she kind of gave a reference back. And that was kind of a. A weird kind of cultural moment. But I sat and made the jewelry with these ladies, and people go, why have you got all this Masai jewelry or beading? Beading, yeah. And I said, well, I. I lived with the Masai Zamburu. I made it with them. And also these designs are. We made together. Like, you know, so it was like a collaboration.
- [29:38]
A
So what, like sort of woven beads or long strings of beads?
- [29:44]
B
All kinds of. This is a contemporary one, but there.
- [29:47]
A
Was sort of like circular beaded work with. Yeah, with hanging beads. Yeah.
- [29:53]
B
I learned a lot about their jewelry as well. They told me that they used to use only seeds, and then the Chinese came with Venetian glass. Yeah, with Venetian beads. So it was like a cultural thing. And that last time I was there, I was like, how are things going? They said, not that great because of. This is what they told me. They said, cultural appropriation. People are scared to buy the jewelry, so we're not making a living. And these are for Tourists, So we're not really sure what to do about it. And I was like, oh, gosh. But they were worried that people were looking at things to say that they couldn't wear or buy the Maasai jewelry because it was cultural appropriation, yet it's their income and the only way that they can make a living. So that was a really interesting way of looking at it. So that's just what they told me. And I really thinking about that. How do you. How do you bring that into a conversation when you have artisans and people making.
- [30:47]
A
Who will suffer from it, really do suffer.
- [30:49]
B
They were suffering from it. So, I mean, the village was thriving, but this cultural appropriation concept had just kind of. It was 2017, so I guess it was like a. A topic of the time.
- [31:01]
A
How would you say people should get around that problem if they want to wear something that is really associated with another culture?
- [31:09]
B
I don't really know. I haven't got the answers to that. But it's good to listen to the people that make the jewelry, who are selling it, who are, you know, depend on it to live. So that's just their situation. I'm sure other cultures would be, go, say no, stay away. We don't want you to have our traditional things. But it was for tourists and also for themselves. So I don't.
- [31:31]
A
I don't economically survive. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Because I think. I mean, it was like the whole bamboo hoop thing when they said, white girls don't wear them. You're taking our cultural icons away from us.
- [31:42]
B
Right.
- [31:43]
A
And Andre Leon Talley came in and said, no, no, no. No one can own that. No one can own the bamboo hoop. White girls can wear it. Right. But maybe it's. It's just an acknowledgment of.
- [31:55]
B
Yeah, I think it's acknowledgment.
- [31:57]
A
The costumes that you admire. Is there a particular place that you think, gosh, I wish I'd been born there and I could have worn their costume?
- [32:07]
B
Don't know. I mean, I spent a lot of time in Thailand, and my business partner was Thai, and we had the lady boys, made me so many like that. Amazing artisans in Bangkok. And it's a group of, like, trans women. I said, I want this, this, this. And so my business partner said, designed like this, but more like this. And. And then they made me all this amazing stuff, and I ended up wearing it. And I don't know, it was like a moment for me. So I love Thai. I love all the gold and like cardboard and gold. I think it's such a great mix.
- [32:43]
A
You also love Victorian jewelry.
- [32:45]
B
I love it. I love morning.
- [32:47]
A
Is that. Is that the period that you love most?
- [32:49]
B
I think I. I used to collect it because that was. There was a lot of that stuff going into my dad's auction. But I love Victorian jewelry, and morning jewelry is amazing. I'm always a bit wary of the.
- [32:59]
A
Ones with the hair because so many had.
- [33:01]
B
Yeah.
- [33:02]
A
The dead or somebody's hair within the locket or the ring.
- [33:05]
B
Exactly. I mean, I have some pieces like that.
- [33:08]
A
I mean, with your hair, you probably could have earned a fortune in the Victorian era because women did sell their hair. Literally.
- [33:16]
B
Yeah, yeah. It's crazy.
- [33:17]
A
And you've got such long hair. It would have been worth a fortune.
- [33:20]
B
It's past. It's gone past my waist now. It's like a. It's longer than my arms.
- [33:24]
A
Yeah, you would have done well. So you've got all of that stashed away as well?
- [33:30]
B
Yeah, yeah. I mean, most of it is in the exhibition.
- [33:33]
A
Okay.
- [33:33]
B
Every. Actually everything, apart from anything made of animal, any kind of animal is not in the exhibition. Things that I collected before I was even aware of certain things. But really old pieces, you know, and that doesn't go in the show because obviously shipping is a nightmare. Sending things to different countries, you can't do that. So I'm not really sure what to do with all that stuff. I think I need to send it to a museum or something.
- [33:59]
A
And, Daniel, haven't you made the world's largest necklace?
- [34:03]
B
I've been looking for a larger necklace, and I don't think I found one. But I've been wearing these domes for years. And how they started were we made them. They're kind of like. I guess they're made by people that make lights. And they are a dome shape, like half a dome, like half a circle with a hole cut in them. And they were originally made for skirts. And then Azealia Banks, the rapper, ordered three of them from us. She didn't pick them up. And I was going to the MTV Awards in Frankfurt, and I decided that I was going to wear one as a necklace. So I'd had to wear chain mail to kind of stop my bones kind of rubbing on it. And I wore it to the MTV Awards, and it was very popular. You could literally see me glowing in the crowd because the perspects kind of when the light hits it, they glow up. So I've made loads of different versions of them, and I've used them Some of them are huge. They're a nightmare to wear, but they're really big. And I've had people draped in them. Like, Lady Gaga poured champagne in one one night at the Box in London. And I've had Madonna peer over one, like, you know, I had this moment with Madonna and I had to sit next to her for, like, four hours in a party. We smiled, and I think her and John Galliano were taking the mick. I don't know if I should say this, but they looked like, you know, when a dog has a. A cone around its neck. So I think that's what they were saying. And they were laughing. I thought it was funny too. Like, I just looked at them laughing at me and I was laughing at them and it was. It was a moment. It was a camp moment.
- [35:30]
A
Didn't she ask you about it?
- [35:32]
B
No, but then she pe over it and I. I went up to her and I. At the end of the night, and I thought, she's gonna go soon, I should talk to her. And I wanted to say the word Madonna because she's Madonna. And I said, madonna, you inspire me so much. And I'm like, why am I saying this? Can't believe this is coming out my mouth. I said, it's not the music, it's just how you've always changed your image. It's fascinating to me. And I said, I really mean it. And she. She peered into the bowl and she went, I believe you. And I was like, that was either the loveliest thing she could possibly say or not. But then she gave me a lovely smile and then she actually left. So these bowls, like, bring interesting moments.
- [36:13]
A
And what do you think about jewellery as armor, as protection? What do you think about that? Because there's so much of it at the moment, people saying, you know, big calves, big chokers are about protection. Do you buy into that or do you think it's purely decorative?
- [36:30]
B
It's. It's. I mean, I like the idea of decorative armor. For me, I do. I have worn a suit of armor. I love it. And I think it's, in a way, mentally for me, if I. If I'm wearing armor, I'm going out. The world can be cruel, especially if you look like I do, you know, walking up the street through Dalston or wherever, and I just feel a bit more protected that I actually have the armor. And I think if someone did pull a knife out, they're going to have to get through all this stuff first. You never know. So sometimes I actually wear real armor, especially if I think I'm going somewhere a bit dodgy.
- [37:04]
A
So where have you got the armor from?
- [37:06]
B
We had it custom. When I had the label, we had so much of it custom made for shows. And I've got some old. Old pieces, really old pieces. I was wearing butcher's gloves out for a while, and then I sew kind of gems into them, and. But we. Yeah, we had them all made for us. Design them and. Yeah.
- [37:24]
A
So we haven't raided a museum collection, actually. They were all much smaller, weren't they? And shorter. You probably wouldn't fit them. Yeah.
- [37:32]
B
Yeah. If anyone has an East Bear armor.
- [37:34]
A
Yeah. We can put it Daniel's way.
- [37:36]
B
Yeah. I. For my TED Talk, actually, I thought, okay, I'm. I'm. My manager told me that the TED Talk, you're speaking to millions of people, and I know it's been seen over 10 million times on Facebook, so he was right. And I thought, I've got to wear armor. I've literally got to go onto the stage. Like, no one can mess with me. Like. And then Swarovski sponsored me as well for that. And so I crystallized everything, and I thought, I want to reflect all the light, anything that's coming at me. And it was just a concept just for me to stand on this red circle. And, you know, there were people like Bill Gates in the audience. I was pretty scared. So I guess, in a way, wearing physical armor, I felt protected, even though.
- [38:17]
A
Helps you mentally.
- [38:18]
B
Yeah. Yeah. That's just me, though. But I'm not sure if, like, just fashion accessories do it or.
- [38:26]
A
I always think jewelry is somehow comforting.
- [38:28]
B
Yeah.
- [38:28]
A
You know, you literally can hold on to it.
- [38:30]
B
Yeah. Yeah. I always thought I had an Hermes hack, and I always thought, this is my shield. And I. I would walk in looking strange. Whatever. Whatever the word you want to say. And I'd walk in somewhere, like in Hotel de Cap, and people would look at me, either really lovely or going, oh, what is that? And then they would see the. The bag on my arm, and they would, like, look up and smile at me. And I thought, this is almost like protection kind of a. It's interesting how people. You know, I had so many people do that, like, stand me up and down, kind of like going, what is that? And then they saw the bag, and then they looked up and smiled.
- [39:07]
A
And it was very interesting, Daniel, because you're very sensitive, and you're very aware of how, you know people's looks and how they react to you, but you're putting yourself in that situation.
- [39:19]
B
Yeah. I mean, I. I think the world needs to change. You know, I think I lost my fear. I had some terrible. When. When I lived with the Masai in Sambiru. I saw terrible things with the charity. And then I was attacked very brutally when I was young. I'm lucky to be here. I was kind of pronounced dead for a second, and I thought, I'm living on overtime. What is the point of being scared? I don't. And the fear just kind of left me, and I. I don't care anymore. I could be in a room with thugs and gangsters, royals, whatever, and I. I just think people are people, bad people are bad people, and good people are good people, and I'm just being me. It's none of their business. It's not my business what they think. And I said in my TED Talk, I learned not to take it personally.
- [40:02]
A
And.
- [40:03]
B
And so I do see this strange thing. I didn't. I couldn't see past my hand up to the age of 32 because I. I didn't realize I needed contact lenses. So I saw the world in a very blurry thing. And I read that Princess Grace of Monaco did the same. She didn't wear glasses, so she couldn't see people. And when I was 32, I was shocked that people. Because my friends always told me, walking up the street with you, people just do the weirdest things. And I'm like, yeah. But I couldn't see the reactions on their faces and that. And then I. I was actually, Yeah, I saw them and I was like, wow, this is crazy. So that's. That's just. Yeah, maybe it was ignorance. But now. Now I see it and I'm just like, okay, that's interesting. If someone's mean or something, I go, I wonder where that comes from. Like, I don't go, oh, I'm offended. I go, so fascinating. So, yeah.
- [40:56]
A
And what do you think about the wider fashion landscape right now? The kind of. The branded idea of fashion?
- [41:06]
B
I see it maybe in a Warhol way that it's. It's quite pop, but the destruction. I've. I worked with Vivivienne Westwood for 13 years. I knew her for about 17 years. And at the beginning, we met because we had the same ideas about things, about the world and the climate. And I remember doing talks about sustainability before, literally before anybody else was talking about it. I know that, like my mum said, you were doing it without those words, you know? And I really care about the destruction of the planet and what. What the fashion industry really does, and all these conglomerate companies Saying, oh, we're so big that it's very hard for us to change. And I'm like, that's the most miserable excuse. So on that side, I think it's so destructive and, you know, I think we should end the trend. I've always wanted to say that to. You know, I was going to do a talk at BoF and it wasn't good enough. I just, I don't. I didn't feel right. But I was going to do a talk about ending trends. And I think if we start, we stop people what. People do what they want, but consuming, fine. I consume a lot of things, but I turn it into something I know.
- [42:18]
A
It'S going to end up so reusing and keeping things forever.
- [42:23]
B
Forever. Yeah. It's never going to go. Hopefully it's never going to go to a landfill. It will go somewhere. I hope it's just very destructive. And I. You see the real effect on the planet and it's all happening around us. I remember sitting in a room with Vivian about 15 years ago and we were with NASA and NASA said all these industries. They mentioned fossil fuel industries, the fashion industry, the technology industry. They said if, if they keep up the way they are, they drew a line. There's a. There's an artwork which Vivian used for her climate revolution. I helped her start that whole thing off. And it was about everywhere under Paris would be uninhabitable if we went up by 4 degrees. And there'd be pockets of South America, I think, somewhere near, like New Zealand and then above Paris. You know, we could live there, but everything under that would be destruction. Like the world would flood, set on fire. It'd be too hot to live there. And these things are real, you know, like people. People go, oh, it's so. I just wish the fashion industry would change for the better, quicker, because they could because they. The technology's there in. In lockdown. I was part of a clubhouse group and it would have. Everyone was internally fighting, saying, this is sustainable, this is not. This is greenwashing. And we formed a really great committee and had these great conversations in lockdown. But the technology is out there for all these conglomerate companies to change. I think they're just too ignorant and greedy to. To make that. That's what I think about it. But I love the fact that people express themselves and they.
- [43:53]
A
Do you think they do now? Do you think. Do you think everybody looks sort of the same?
- [43:57]
B
Yeah. Gen Z? No, I think they're really like. I mean, a lot of them look very 90s at the moment, but they're taking a contemporary. I think they're the most creative ones yet.
- [44:08]
A
Do you think so?
- [44:09]
B
Yeah, I think so. Like, I'm looking at them at parties and on the street and I'm like, they look really cool.
- [44:14]
A
That's good.
- [44:14]
B
Yeah.
- [44:15]
A
Because I went into one of these shops the other day where all the young girls go, you know, like, 11, 12. I mean, honestly, if you had a daughter in there, you wouldn't have known which one she was. They all looked identical.
- [44:27]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think people dress up in their bedrooms now, like the kids. And they're for TikTok. Yeah, they do their makeup.
- [44:34]
A
Well, as long as they do dress up.
- [44:35]
B
As long as they do, it's. It's expressing themselves, I think. I don't know, I. I just wish people would be themselves rather than what they think the world would tell them to be, you know, Like, I believe we're here once and I. I think people should just go for it and. And be confident. And I've. I've had people come to me and they said they've seen me talk somewhere and I. I do a lot of public speaking. When I've done shows, for example, all these talks, I have people from young teenagers or even kids to, like, 90 years old in the crowd and from all backgrounds. And I've had people come years later going, oh, I. This is what I'm doing now. And I'm like, that's amazing. Like, oh, I started, like, dressing up because of you. Like, when I did my exhibition in my hometown, Coventry, it was the city of culture. And I thought, they're never going to say yes to the show. Never. Coventry, no way. I moved away because there was nothing there for me. And it was, you know, it was a horrible place. When I was growing up and I did the show, we had 50. Nearly 50, 000 people turn up. And when I go back now, people are like, I'm wearing this because of you. And I'm like, I love that. Like, fine, it's nice about me. But they've gone out there and they've. They've changed. And people dress up in Coventry now, which is amazing. And there's been a few other cities, like in Naples, there's like a certain group, people that are a bit more elaborate. So it's. It's interesting when I go to different cities and places, people come in, they get inspired and they go off and do their own thing. And all of my shows, fine, all the work is about me, but at the End of the show. I have a mirror. And it's a quote I, I did in my TED Talk, and it said, who are you? How many versions of you are there? And most people take a picture of it and they walk out and I've turned the whole show back on them and it's like, go and be you. I'm not questioning. Maybe some people don't want to do that, but yeah, it's. That's. That's. I hope, hopefully as an artist, I've. I've helped some people, you know, and if I've done that, I've done my job as an artist.
- [46:39]
A
So your message is be yourself.
- [46:41]
B
Everyone else is already taken.
- [46:43]
A
And sparkle and shine while you're doing it. And wear jewelry while you're doing it.
- [46:48]
B
Exactly.
- [46:49]
A
Well, Daniel, thank you very much indeed for sharing your philosophy with us.
- [46:53]
B
Thank you.
- [46:53]
A
It is inspiring. And I'm going to take tons and tons of pictures and I want to show everybody the jewelry that you do make. I hope you do make some.
- [47:02]
B
I should make some more. And I can't wait to read your book.
- [47:05]
A
Oh, thank you. Thank you for mentioning that. That's.
- [47:08]
B
I'm wearing all the subjects it's about.
- [47:10]
A
I know, but I think I have.
- [47:11]
B
The hoops on today.
- [47:12]
A
But yeah, you're right. It's hoops, charms, rings, head ornaments, cuffs, brooches. You've got tons and tons of brooches and tons of rings.
- [47:24]
B
So I left my cuffs and hoops at home.
- [47:27]
A
Next time. Thank you, Daniel.
- [47:30]
B
Thank you.
- [47:36]
A
Thank you for listening. For this and other episodes of if Jules Could Talk, please go to our website, website carolwalton.com podcasts. If you've enjoyed it, which I hope you have, please share it any way you can. And we love to have a rating and a comment. You can find me at carolwalton. And we have a YouTube channel. Most excitingly, in the next couple of weeks, the book of the podcast will be out September 26, published by Simon. And the Financial Times covered it last week, saying the book from the hit podcast. So thank you, Financial Times, and we'll keep you posted about that and join me again in two weeks for the next jewelled nugget. In fact, the next two episodes will be coming from Venice. We'll be looking at the history the Renaissance, why it became the center of the gemstone industry and how it helped create the global gemstone industry that is today. And then we'll be continuing a Venetian story in the following two weeks. So please join me then, and thank you so much for listening. If Jules Could Talk with Carol Woolton is produced by Natasha Cowen. Music and editing by Tim Thornton. Graphics by Scott Bentley. Illustration by Jordy labanda. You can find our sponsors at fullygemstones. Com and me at carolwilton. Com.