HOW VENICE INFLUENCED THE WORLD OF JEWELS, WITH STEVEN MOORE AND ALBERTO NARDI

Summary

Summary of "HOW VENICE INFLUENCED THE WORLD OF JEWELS, WITH STEVEN MOORE AND ALBERTO NARDI"

Episode Released on October 3, 2024 | If Jewels Could Talk with Carol Woolton

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Introduction

In this episode of If Jewels Could Talk, host Carol Woolton delves into the profound influence of Venice on the global gemstone and jewelry industry. Joined by Stephen Moore, an antiquary and writer, and Alberto Nardi, a third-generation Venetian jeweler from the historic Nardi family business, Carol explores Venice’s rich heritage in jewelry craftsmanship, its transformation over centuries, and the ongoing efforts to preserve its artisanal legacy.

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Venice’s Historical Role in the Global Gemstone Market

Stephen Moore opens the discussion by highlighting Venice's pivotal role in establishing a global gemstone market through its strategic position on the Silk Road. He explains:

“Venice has always been this cultural crossroads. So when you get trade, you get wealth, and that means you get great ancestors like the Nardis setting up as goldsmiths and making incredible jewelry.”
(04:25)

Moore emphasizes that Venice facilitated the flow of silk, porcelain, gold, and jewels from regions like China, India, and Afghanistan, making it a central hub for diverse cultural and material exchanges.

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Cultural Melting Pot and Venetian Goldsmiths

Carol and her guests discuss how Venice's openness to different cultures fostered innovation and craftsmanship. Stephen Moore remarks on the Venetians' entrepreneurial spirit:

“The Venetians were very clever. If you had an idea, they would pay you money for it and give you a monopoly on it.”
(04:37)

Alberto Nardi echoes this sentiment, noting that Venice was not just a trading post but also a breeding ground for ideas and artistic expression, which significantly influenced their jewelry designs.

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Modern Venice and Challenges to Tradition

Alberto Nardi expresses concerns about the modern-day Venice, where the influx of tourists and the shift towards selling touristic items threaten traditional craftsmanship:

“What we do now is showing our beauty in a certain way. But what I always say is that we need to produce culture, we need to produce business once again.”
(05:08)

He laments the decline of Venetian merchants who historically traveled for gemstones and spices, contrasting it with today's focus on catering to tourists rather than maintaining their artisanal legacy.

Stephen Moore adds:

“With just these 48,000 people, Venice is no longer sustainable. And actually, it is the tourists that really keep Venice going.”
(08:40)

This highlights the tension between preserving Venice’s cultural heritage and its reliance on tourism for economic survival.

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Jewelry Design Inspired by Venice

The conversation shifts to how Venice's unique environment inspires contemporary jewelry design. Alberto Nardi shares his efforts to revive traditional Venetian motifs:

“I saw in a private collection some of these mask rings that were very popular in Venice and France in the 18th century. I thought it would be very nice to bring it back.”
(24:50)

Nardi discusses the creation of mask earrings, inspired by traditional Venetian masks, incorporating intricate enamel work to honor the craftsmanship of the past while adapting it for modern aesthetics.

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History and Significance of Venetian Masks

Stephen Moore provides an insightful look into the history of Venetian masks, particularly during Carnival:

“Carnival was a way of attracting people. It was a handful of proper masks.”
(27:06)

He explains the various types of masks, such as the Aba Uta and Domino, and their social implications. Masks allowed individuals from different social strata to interact freely, a concept that fostered Venice’s cosmopolitan culture.

Alberto Nardi adds depth by discussing the Moretti masks:

“Moretti are a celebration, an evocation of difference. They celebrate diversity in a way that was unique to Venice.”
(43:22)

He clarifies that these masks were not meant to symbolize slavery but rather to honor the multicultural fabric of Venetian society.

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Sumptuary Laws and Social Hierarchy in Renaissance Venice

The episode delves into Venice’s sumptuary laws, which regulated the display of wealth and jewelry to prevent social discord. Stephen Moore explains:

“Unless you were in the Golden Book, you couldn’t wear silks, velvets, and jewelry.”
(10:04)

The Golden Book comprised elite patrician families who held political power and social privileges. Those outside this class were restricted in their ability to display ostentatious wealth, fostering a distinct social hierarchy.

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Preservation of Venetian Craftsmanship and Traditions

Alberto Nardi passionately discusses his efforts to preserve and revitalize Venetian jewelry traditions. He recounts designing new crowns for the Basilica della Salute, linking historical craftsmanship with contemporary artistry:

“I designed two new crowns for the Greek icon at the Basilica della Salute, melting a small part of historical gold to create these pieces.”
(35:21)

Nardi emphasizes the importance of maintaining Venice’s artisanal legacy amidst modern challenges, striving to balance tradition with innovation.

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Alberto Nardi’s Family Legacy and Current Initiatives

The narrative transitions to the Nardi family history. Alberto shares the story of his grandfather, a Florentine who moved to Venice for love during World War I and established the Nardi jewelry store in the 1920s. He describes the evolution of the business and his personal commitment to honoring his family's legacy:

“What gives me passion is trying to be an ambassador of the beauty of the city and preserving our cultural heritage through our jewelry.”
(49:42)

Alberto highlights his initiative to revive traditional designs, such as the Moretti masks, and adapt them for a modern audience without compromising their historical significance.

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Conclusion: Reflections on Venice’s Heritage and Future

In closing, Stephen Moore reflects on the enduring value of traditional craftsmanship in Venice:

“Places that have survived, like Nardi, make them all the more precious. Nardi is a very precious jewel in Venice’s crown and long, long may she reign.”
(52:00)

Alberto Nardi concurs, expressing hope that Venice can continue to balance its rich heritage with contemporary demands, ensuring that its unique cultural and artisanal legacy endures for future generations.

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Key Takeaways

• Historical Significance: Venice was a central hub in the global gemstone trade, significantly influencing jewelry craftsmanship through its strategic position on the Silk Road.

• Cultural Melting Pot: The city’s openness to diverse cultures fostered innovation and rich artisanal traditions, particularly in jewelry design.

• Modern Challenges: Venice faces threats to its traditional craftsmanship due to the dominance of tourism and economic shifts, necessitating efforts to preserve its artisanal heritage.

• Preservation Efforts: Jewelers like Alberto Nardi are actively working to revive and adapt traditional Venetian designs, blending historical techniques with modern aesthetics.

• Social History: Sumptuary laws and the tradition of mask-wearing during Carnival illustrate Venice’s complex social hierarchies and its unique approach to cultural inclusivity.

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Notable Quotes

• Stephen Moore on Venice as a cultural crossroads:
  “Venice has always been this cultural crossroads. So when you get trade, you get wealth, and that means you get great ancestors like the Nardis setting up as goldsmiths and making incredible jewelry.”
  (04:25)

• Alberto Nardi on preserving Venice’s beauty:
  “What gives me passion is trying to be an ambassador of the beauty of the city and preserving our cultural heritage through our jewelry.”
  (49:42)

• Stephen Moore on the value of traditional craftsmanship:
  “Places that have survived, like Nardi, make them all the more precious. Nardi is a very precious jewel in Venice’s crown and long, long may she reign.”
  (52:00)

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Looking Ahead

Carol Woolton teases the next episode, where she plans to visit Murano to speak with one of the best glassmakers, exploring the intricate art of Murano glass bead creation.

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For more insightful episodes and to explore the rich world of jewelry history and design, visit carolwoolton.com/podcasts.

Transcript

[Carole Houlton]

We're so done with New Year. New you this year it's More youe on Bumble. More of you shamelessly sending playlists, especially that one filled with show tunes. More of you finding Geminis because you.

[Stephen Moore]

Know you always like them.

[Carole Houlton]

More of you dating with intention because you know what you want and you know what, we love that for you, someone else will too be more you this year and find them on Bumblebee. This episode is brought to you by Fooli Gemstones.

[Alberto Nardi]

The Venetian actually didn't love diamonds especially. They much more prefer color stones and in color stones, they much more prefer the red stones. The red stones for the Venetian, probably for the link with the Roman Empire, you know, red is the color of this city in a certain way, were the very favorite stones for the Venetians.

[Carole Houlton]

I'm Carole Houlton, the voice of jewellery. Welcome to if Jules Could Talk. I'm an author and broadcaster and the woman who initiated the role of jewellery editor at magazines like Tatler and Vogue. This is a podcast for everyone, for people who do like jewellery, for people who don't realize they like jewellery, and anyone intrigued by fascinating facts, new ideas and forgotten histories. So join me as I tell sparkly tales and meet all sorts of people delving into four centuries of jewellery culture and investigate what's happening now. I am delighted to be in Venice today and I have two guests. My first guest is Stephen Moore. He's an antiquary, TV presenter and raconteur. His half a million followers. Tune in on Instagram, Instagram to see his reports, interesting gossip and knowledge, which is filmed around his home on the Grand Canal. And he's a writer and author. Stephen, thank you for joining us this morning.

[Stephen Moore]

Pleasure. Very nice to be asked.

[Carole Houlton]

And we are at Nardi and I'm with Alberto Nardi, the third generation jeweller whose store has resided on the corner of St. Mark's Square since the 1920s. If you hear a little music in the background, it's because with a stone's throw from Florian, the famous cafe where they play music all day. And this is where the jet set have met for generations. Elizabeth Taylor, Grace Kelly, Ernest Hemingway, Spanish and Greek royal family. Everybody makes a little homage to Nardi when they're in Venice. And their designs have often been inspired by the city itself. The architecture, motifs, light, water, festivals, characters, art and culture, and the work of the 18th century Venetian goldsmiths. Alberto, thank you very much for hosting us this morning.

[Alberto Nardi]

Great pleasure to be, I mean to be with you and I mean it's a great pleasure to have this possibility to talk about us.

[Carole Houlton]

Thank you, Stephen. I wanted to know how Venice played a pivotal role in establishing a global gemstone market, mainly through trade. Did this start during the Renaissance?

[Stephen Moore]

Well, before that, really. We talk a lot today about, you know, superhighways and roads and things. Well, we had an amazing superhighway. It was called the Silk Road. And the Silk Road traveled all the way from China to Turkey, as it is now, or Turkey. And then, of course, the link to Europe was Venice. So whether Venice was raiding Constantinople or vice versa. But the link was right, the way from China all the way to Venice through Constantinople. And that brought in silk, it brought in porcelain, brought in gold, it brought in jewels. And I don't need to tell you, Carol, that, you know, all the jewelry that came from Afghanistan, from India, that all came on the spice roads as well. So it all ended up in Venice. And of course, Venice has always been this cultural crossroads. So when you get trade, you get wealth, and that means you get great, great, great, great ancestors of Alberta setting up as goldsmiths and making incredible jewellery. Because Venice, as it still is a bit, is a place you can show off without shame.

[Carole Houlton]

So Venice really was a sort of cultural melting pot. It wasn't just gemstone, spice, fabric, but ideas.

[Stephen Moore]

Absolutely.

[Carole Houlton]

And people meeting and exchanging their different.

[Stephen Moore]

The Venetians were very clever. If you had an idea, they would pay you money for it and give you a monopoly on it. So you could come to Venice and say, I have this new way of smelting gold, for instance. They say, great. We think this is fabulous. Here's some money, here's a house, here's a patent on it. So they were attracting wealth in the same way as modern economies try to do. Now, nothing is new. Venice had already done it, and it's still.

[Carole Houlton]

Alberto, do you think it still remains the center of cultural interaction?

[Alberto Nardi]

Of course, I don't want to be negative, but of course, these fantastic atmospheres that we had in the past, I mean, in terms of being such a great merchant, you know, in a certain way, disappear the city of Venice right now, it is a beautiful stage, of course, of. And what we do now is showing our beauty in a certain way. But what I always say that we need, I mean, to produce culture, we need to produce, you know, business once again, in a little, of course, version. But that will be a very important issue. At that time, as Stephen said correctly, Venice was a center where we produce business, we produce ideas. I mean, we were. I mean, the Venetian merchant. I mean, we were talking about Stones, for example. Marco Polo was from a family of stone dealers. We have reports of a Venetian jeweler in the 16th century were traveling to Burma or to China or to India to buying stones and coming back, you know, so I mean, this Silk Road was very important for us as a Venetian, you know, so in a certain way, as a Venetian merchant, as I consider myself, you know, it's a little bit of pity that we are just, you know, here selling, you know, touristic stuff and we are not the kind of entrepreneur that we were in the past, except Alberto.

[Carole Houlton]

We're sitting here in the midst of the Venice Film Festival where Cate Blanchett was on my flight. Just drop a little name in there. And that is all happening down at the Lido. I was at the Homo Faber exhibition yesterday which is encouraging artisans and craftsmanship. And there were objects, incredible pieces, not just of jewellery, of furniture, of art from people all around the world, all around the globe. And then last night I went to Diane von Furstenberg's awards honoring women. Oprah Winfrey was there giving, presenting awards. There's a lot happening, a lot of people coming to the city to do things that must make.

[Stephen Moore]

No, I quite agree. I mean there's a very nice international set of people who live here. And I always think I can say as a non Venetian and Alberta can say I'm wrong, but as a non Venetian, as a Venetian by adoption. Venice has never been that good at selling itself. It's been very good at selling Venice, but never that good at selling itself as a place. And I think we all know where the problems lie. The people who run Venice, they're very happy to have the day to day tourists inn where really in the past, Venice. It was always when I first came here in the 90s, the place was full. There was a beautiful. You remember the shirt shop in Cale Valloresa? Beautiful shirt shop. So three bays long and all they had was the bales of shirting. And I saw that shop and I said to myself one day I will be able to afford to buy a shirt in that shop. And the damp shop's closed down, so I'll know a bit about the shirt there.

[Carole Houlton]

Venetian skills are pushed out.

[Stephen Moore]

Yes. So, and I only found out last year, until last summer, the same guy was in Mestre making shirts. And that's where a lot of things have happened. People have moved out of Venice because they can sell their property better as an Airbnb. And that is in many ways damaging Venice, but damaging a lot of cities.

[Carole Houlton]

Look at the people In Barcelona, I.

[Stephen Moore]

Think there's still hope for Venice because I think Venice's beauty in some ways is self healing, and I think it will heal again.

[Alberto Nardi]

This is a concept that is very interesting because the beauty of Venice is the issue. I mean, Venice is so unique and so beautiful. This is the force of the city of Venice. But in a certain way, it is also the drama of the city of Venice. As a Venetian, I always say that I'm very happy to have new Venetian. As Stephen, you know, it is very important to have this international crowd that decide to spend a lot of time in my city. And for me, you know, being a Venetian is not just to be born here, but is to decide to move here. So, I mean, what we really need is to have new Venetian. So, I mean, what I can say, I mean, to everybody that listen this podcast, is the fact that if somebody would like to come here, they are very and most welcome because, I mean, this city needs new cities and new Venetians.

[Carole Houlton]

Well, we had Michelle Lammy, married to Rick Owens, on the podcast recently, and they bought a house in the Lido. So it seems to be attracting a lot of big fashion names, theatrical names, which has to be pretty exciting.

[Stephen Moore]

And his party was the party of the Biennale. But I went to bed, I'm afraid.

[Carole Houlton]

So when you talked about it's a good place to kind of show off. I wonder when this was the center of this gemstone trading. It was pretty important for Renaissance women to be highly bejewelled, wasn't it?

[Stephen Moore]

Completely. But of course, they had sumptuary laws. So unless you were in the Golden Book, as it was, which is like kind of the upper echelon of society, you were allowed to wear silks and velvets and jewelry. If you weren't in the Golden Book, you couldn't.

[Carole Houlton]

So what was the Golden Book?

[Stephen Moore]

The Golden Book was a bit like, if you imagine the ultimate Brett's Guide or who's who. But it was the elite of society. So they were the patrician families, the title families, and then there was the Silver Book, was kind of the Merchantile families. And unless you were in the Golden Book, for instance, you couldn't become a senator, you couldn't vote, and you couldn't become involved in politics. You couldn't have a title. So things like, you know, people name their palazzos after themselves. So like, you know, Palazzo Barbara's, Palazzo Barbara Curtis, because the Curtis family used to own it all. So but in the Venetian Republic, unless you're in the Golden Book, you couldn't name the palazzo after yourself. You'd have to live in somebody else's palazzo. But then you could pay to join the book, of course.

[Carole Houlton]

So backhanders.

[Stephen Moore]

Yeah, but then there's other strange things, like you were allowed to wear second hand clothes. So of course, in Renaissance, Venice was famous for its prostitutes. So they could wear silks and velvets as long as they were secondhand. And that all ended up because the youngest daughter of a noble family would often end up going into a convent as a nun and her dowry would be her amazing clothes. So all the silk and velvet clothes would go to the convent and they would sell the best ones, which ended up with prostitutes, which is a bit ironic. And the rest would be reordered into vestments or things for the. The altar. So a lot of fragments of very important vision. Textiles survive because they went into convents.

[Carole Houlton]

The circular economy.

[Stephen Moore]

Exactly. Recycling.

[Carole Houlton]

But the sumptuary laws in Venice, for anyone who doesn't know, was that the ostentatious display of wealth had caused great concern for the government. So they brought this in because they thought it might incite envy and problems between the classes. But no one stuck to it, really, did they?

[Stephen Moore]

No. I mean, it was similar to the law about painting your congenor black, because most people forget a gondola was like a car. So if you were well off, you had your own gondola and you employed two, two gondoliers. Because of course they originally had two. But people used to decorate their gondolas quite extravagantly. So again, they brought in a law to make them because they were super.

[Carole Houlton]

Colorful, they were outdoing each other.

[Stephen Moore]

So. So in many ways Venice, it was always a republic, was always very proud of being a republic. And anybody, I think there was a couple of doges who tried to make into a retro monarchy and they were dispatch. Because also the flip side of Venice is that whilst it was very egalitarian, that could be quite brutal as well, couldn't they?

[Alberto Nardi]

Venice was, as Cicerone said once, was in a certain way an ideal kind of state, because it was a mixed way between a monarchy, a republic, but also had some, I mean, had a very strong form of oligarchy. So, I mean, all these different components were inside the Venetian republic. So Venice was not such a. Such an old, you know, noble, aristocratic republic as Napoleon thought. I mean, I much more prefer, you know, the British or the American version, seeing the Venetian republic that they consider it in a certain way a sort of inspiration, you know, also the American republic was established. I would like just to Link with what Stephen say. And from what I know, in 16th century and also 15th century was very popular, also renting jewelry, you know, and the people that could not afford, you know, in buying jewelry, especially, you know, pearls that were very unfashioned in Venice, but also, of course, in England, and they were very costly. They could rent for a special occasion, for a special ball, you know, was a very florid business.

[Carole Houlton]

Really. That's very. I didn't know that.

[Stephen Moore]

Well, it's the same as George IV when he got. Was coronated, he rented all the jewelry on his crown.

[Carole Houlton]

Yes.

[Stephen Moore]

So in. In the Tower of London, they have this crown frame which has no jewelry in it because all the stones were sent back to Rundle Bridge and Rundlow, wherever they came from.

[Carole Houlton]

So it wasn't until Queen Victoria that they basically could keep the stones in the crown. Well, so all those. The paintings that we see of during the Renaissance period of these women wearing beautiful head adornments, pendants and tagliers. So some of those might have been rented for the painting.

[Stephen Moore]

Yeah, you never know. You never know about the stall as you went into Mr. Tiepolo's. It's sort of.

[Carole Houlton]

And actually, when you were talking about the merchant who, as they would go off adventuring, I mean, there is a story of. I think it was the Balbiani family, maybe that's who you were talking about, who created a syndicate. And in 1591, a group of the merchant entrepreneurs went to a joint venture to India in search of spice and stones. And they brought back apparently over 7,000 gems in one shipment. So the amount of gemstones coming into Venice must be.

[Alberto Nardi]

We have to consider. And also, it's a story that, you know, the majority of Venetians, they don't know. I mean, it's funny enough that Venice was a very important cutting center, you know, for precious stones and also for diamonds. This is this sort of controversy, but I mean, I mean, as a Venetian, I said that there is no doubt about that, that, you know, the first brilliant cut. I mean, not. I mean, of course, not today the contemporary cutter that we are used to seeing now, but it was developed by a Venetian cutter called Hortensio Borgis, you know, and also, you know, some Venetian cutter that were used, you know, in India for cutting, you know, many big stones for the. So, I mean, Venice was a very important center for cutting, especially in the area of Rialto, not in the area of San Marco. This business went on since the end of 17th century. Then, of course, being, you know, the merchant Roots. And especially, you know, with the discover of the big mines in Brazil and then in Africa, of course, of diamonds, this kind of business completely finish. What is important to say once again, is that the Venetian actually didn't love diamonds especially. They much more prefer colored stones. And in colored stones, they much more prefer the red stones. The red stones for the Venetian, probably for the link with the Roman Empire, you know, red is the color of this city in a certain way, were the very favorite stones for the Venetians.

[Carole Houlton]

So it would be ruby, garnet.

[Alberto Nardi]

Yeah, I mean, I had a chance to make a study of the stones of the paladoro that is this very important element in the church of San Marco. You know, that is cover of thousands of stones. Unfortunately, the majority of stones that were stolen by our friend Napoleon when he came to Venice, and they were replaced with. With some copies, you know, glass, stuff like that in 19th century. But you can immediately detach, you know, the original stones. And the majority of stones, as I said before, they are sapphires, emeralds, and they call ruby. But some of them are garnets. They were not the geological knowledge at that time to divide, you know, stones as we do now.

[Carole Houlton]

When you talk about some of the stones being replaced by glass. I guess the fact that you had Murano there making this spectacular glass, and some of it, which I looked at yesterday, you know, in certain lights, could look like a diamond. Be very easy for them to. To commit fraud and be swapping in the glass for the stones.

[Stephen Moore]

Yeah. And Alberta, did, you know, did they make fake stones on Maran? I mean, they must have done. Really.

[Alberto Nardi]

No, I mean, I know that the municipality of Venice in 19th century. I don't know exactly, exactly. They replace, you know, these stones that they were stolen. And as I said before, for me, it was very easy to detach them because they are faceted stones. So some of these stones are, you know, semi. Semi precious stones. Others are probably glass. I mean, but there is not such a big difference between the two. And, you know, Venice in 19th century leaves some very poor moment. I mean, the city was quite poor because, you know, we lost the fact to be the major harbor in the north Adriatic Sea because it became Trieste, you know, that was under the Austrian, you know. So Venice was. Was living quite a difficult and tough moment. But the Venetian, they wanted to replace this color, you know, and impact in this paladoro. And so they replaced with stones. Of course, for me as a gemologist, it's quite easy to detach a piece of glass and precious stones, but also we have to consider that during the Byzantine time, when the paladoro was made, you know, the stones were just, you know, bold stone. They are not faceted, you know, they are sort of cabochon. You know, they were left like that. There are stones that up to me as a jeweler, they are full of intrinsic appeal atmospheres that, you know, just the time is giving them.

[Stephen Moore]

Did they make any glass stones on Murano in the 17th and 18th century? I'm thinking of the glass pearls that they made. So surely they must have made.

[Alberto Nardi]

It is funny.

[Stephen Moore]

Fake rubies and things as well.

[Alberto Nardi]

No fake rubies. I don't know. There is all this story of this stone called aventurine and also the murina, you know, this kind of workmanship. Yeah, that they were. I mean, it's funny to say they were sold by Venetian merchant to some African tribes, and they were sold by the African to some Europe. I mean, they were incredible, you know, kind of way that these materials were done. But I mean, this selling of these kind of glass beads and stuff like that were very florid. You know, during the 1960s, you see.

[Stephen Moore]

I'm thinking of things like the Calcedonia glass, which was imitating Count Chalcedony. So surely if they were doing that, they must have tried to imitate other jewelry as well.

[Carole Houlton]

For the jewelry trade always been imitations of precious stones. The Egyptians, fa. I mean, it's. It. Yeah, it's always happened.

[Stephen Moore]

We've just never detected them. They're out there somewhere.

[Carole Houlton]

And also, at the time when we're talking about Germany, nobody would have been a gemologist. They were not gemologists. So people were basically looking at texts like Pliny, the Roman historian, to get their information about stones and minerals, weren't they?

[Alberto Nardi]

That's true. And also, you know, the stones that were important for the color, you know, the study that we did with this professor of Byzantine art was to try to understand if in the paladoro there were a theological meaning in the stone that were set. You know, so the colors were linked, you know, with the cross, with the death of Christ and stuff like that. And probably it was like that. You know, the people of the middle age, they were always using, you know, this telegram. Theological, you know, issues and bringing, you know, theological issues, you know, also in small piece of art as it is, not such a small. But I mean, in object of art as it is, the palador and of.

[Carole Houlton]

Course, the city itself, as you've said, is just so inspiring. And it did begin very early on to inspire jewelry Design. I mean, Stephen, the Neff pendant was quite an example of that, wasn't it?

[Stephen Moore]

So a ship pendant?

[Carole Houlton]

Yes, because it became such a sort of maritime power and the life on the sea, the fact you were just surrounded by water, did that begin to inspire design itself?

[Stephen Moore]

I think it must have done. Because what we have to remember is that, you know, today we're used to a multicultural society, and seeing people of different races or creeds or whatever to yourself is quite normal in every day. But many places weren't like that. So if you came to Venice 500 years ago, you would see people of all nations, all creeds, all colors. And Venice was quite an egalitarian society. There was no. The Venetians would look at something and think, oh, they wouldn't think, he's black. They think, can I make some money from that man? Where's he from? He's from somewhere abroad. What can he sell us? So they looked at people in a completely different way. So to be in that space with all these, shall we say, exotic, for want of a better word, all these exotic people, and also in a place as beautiful as Venice. And as you said, the water, it's the light that the water reflects. So everywhere you look, it's like you've been lit by the best Hollywood lighting camera man. So that must have inspired people in the same way it inspired artists in the 19th and 20th century. Once they got here, they just. The famous one about Monet who said, you know, Venice was too beautiful to paint, but once he'd been here a few days, he was completely blown away by it. Just started painting and painting. And then we have all those amazing Monet paintings of Venice. So jewelry designers must have been inspired.

[Carole Houlton]

Well, I think the small metal ships that became very fashionable, bejeweled enameled, was a sort of speciality. And I think also they were worn probably as good luck to the sailors on the water. So I think that became quite a fashion. But it has been for your family in the past. The city has really inspired your design, hasn't it, Alberto?

[Alberto Nardi]

Yeah. I was thinking, when you talk about this sheep, you know, earrings, they're very beautiful. That in a certain way, I don't want to appear arrogant, but I mean, I did something. I mean, a cultural discovery in a certain way, because, you know, was a couple of years ago, I saw in a private collection, in a museum in Milano, you know, some of these mask rings that they were very popular in Venice, but also in France in 18th century. And I thought that they were very beautiful. And this Tradition as the sheep earrings tradition completely disappear in the city of Venice. So I thought that it would be very nice to bring it back, you know. So what we are trying to do, I mean, what I'm trying to do is also cultural effort, you know, to bring back, you know, some things that is very linked with our tradition. And in a certain way, unfortunately, they completely disappear. Now these mask earrings are in production in our shop. I'm very happy about that. They are very.

[Carole Houlton]

So traditional Venetian masks. And they're created in what, gemstones?

[Alberto Nardi]

No, they have an incredible work of enamel where we reproduce, you know, a face, you know, a classical face of a man or a woman of 18th century. You know, it's completely hand painted. You know, there is a, you know, a long work behind them. When I started to work on them, you know, we were very borderline between doing something that was very kitschy, you know, and something that was a piece of art. I mean, in our kind of business we are always like there, you know, the result at the end up to me is quite nice. And for what I'm seeing the people.

[Carole Houlton]

It's a bit understated, isn't it? It's quite nice. Well, I think maybe we'll show them on the. You can all judge that they're.

[Stephen Moore]

No, no, they're very smart. But I think that when you say carnival mass to people, they think of all the horrible cheap masks you get down by the giardino real. These are proper 18th century masks.

[Carole Houlton]

Stephen, can I ask you quickly, the. The history of the mask was that from disease and plague and that people were covering themselves?

[Stephen Moore]

No, no, it was from Carnavalo which went on for almost six months in Venice and for all Venice was a very stratified society with, you know, very, you know, the aristocracy at the top and right down to the peasants and the prostitutes and everything. During carnivale, as long as you wore a mask, you could do almost anything you wanted. So there was a handful of proper masks. So there was. There was the aba uta, which is the kind of. The one you will see if you see the Amadeus. It's that one. There's the. Is it mueta, the one that the woman hold or a domino, the ball they hold in their mouth. So of course it covers their mouth but they can't speak. And then there was even there was a musk which was a cat which were called the Naga which gay people could wear. And as long as they wore the Naga mask and they wore the opposite sex clothes, they could do what they wanted. So A gay man could wear the Naga mask and a dress and have sex with another gay man wearing the dress and nothing was done. However, it wasn't Carnevale. And you did that, he'd be burnt in between the columns. Which is why today gay Venetians will not walk between the columns.

[Carole Houlton]

Really?

[Stephen Moore]

Yep.

[Carole Houlton]

There's a bit of history we didn't know.

[Stephen Moore]

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[Alberto Nardi]

I installed these and then got some from my mom.

[Stephen Moore]

She talked to a design consultant for.

[Alberto Nardi]

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[Stephen Moore]

Install hall of fame son. They're the number one online retailer of.

[Alberto Nardi]

Custom window coverings in the world.

[Stephen Moore]

Blinds.com is the the goat shop. Blinds.com right now.

[Alberto Nardi]

And get up to 40% off select.

[Carole Houlton]

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[Alberto Nardi]

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[Stephen Moore]

The carnival was a way of attracting people. And you know, it wasn't you to come to Venice. In the Renaissance, you weren't poor. You had to be rich to come here because you had to come in a ship. So you had to have a ship. So even the hotel, which is now in Cadamosto, Venice. Venice was the Leone Bianco, which was Europe's first hotel. And that went back to the 16th century. So Venice invented things like hotels because there were all these people coming to stay unless you knew someone. So that created this hotel where you could just go and book a room. But it wasn't like a travel lodge. The weeds were quite well off people and they were attracted by the fact that you could do naughty things, shall we say. But when they came here to do their naughty things, they were buying jewelry, they were buying spices, they were buying silks and velvets. So all it was a way of attracting rich people, tempting them in with, you know, ooh la la. And they spent the money.

[Carole Houlton]

I don't know why. I always imagined, I suppose because of COVID and masks we wore in Covid, I imagine that somehow masks were also linked to the plague.

[Stephen Moore]

Well, there's the plague doctor mask, which. With the bird's beak. Nice. But that was kind of supposedly put herbs and things down the beak like a.

[Carole Houlton]

Like a. A pomander.

[Stephen Moore]

Yes, indeed. So it is. That is one of the other traditional masks as well. I mean, the whole of. You know, we're just next to Cafe Florian, which kind of is the epicenter of Carnival now. But what people forget Is the modern carnival was reinvented and was it 76 or 78?

[Alberto Nardi]

Yeah, Carnival was reinvented by some young Venetian when I was an adolescent, you know, I'm Talking about the 70s, 80s, you know, because carnival was completely disappeared. It became a very popular and funny kind of huge party. I remember that I danced in the middle of San Marco Square, you know, it was a huge disco, you know, with I don't know, 20,000 people.

[Carole Houlton]

You know, going back to the design, I've seen, seen some amazing chandeliers here that were inspired by the Santa Maria della Salute church.

[Alberto Nardi]

Yeah, yeah, that one. Are once again, many of our pieces are inspired directly or indirectly to the city of Venice. That one, they have a quite interesting story because I started to design them during the COVID the lockdown period, you know, that affect everybody and you know, the Basilica de la Salute. But Stephen can tell us much more about that. Was established by the Venetian in 17th century as a sort of a prayer for the end of a big plague that affected all Europe, especially Venice, and where the half of the Venetian population died, you know, and also the Doge died, you know. So as a prayer, you know, as an expression, you know, the Venetians say if this big disease will finish, we will establish the most beautiful church for the Holy Mary, you know. And so I mean, the legends say that the plague finished and they built this beautiful church. So during the lockdown I thought it was very interesting to have this link, you know, and to make, you know, something that was resembling, you know, the basilica as a sort of a prayer for all of us, you know, for the end of COVID What you said.

[Carole Houlton]

Is quite interesting because it just shows, as we were saying at the beginning, nothing is new. The plague, we had a new plague. And maybe when you're talking about the tourist elements of Venice, it was ever thus. Stephen.

[Stephen Moore]

I mean, it's interesting. I was here a week before the lockdown and then I was here when we went into sort of the red zone over Christmas one time. And part of me wishes I was trapped in Venice because it must have been amazing to have seen it with just the 40 something thousand Venetians left. And I remember Venetian friends telling me, it's wonderful. Venice has become back a village. We, we just see our neighbors. It's so fantastic. But then bit by bit, they suddenly realize actually with just these 48,000 people, Venice is no longer sustainable. And actually it is the tourists that really keep Venice going. But it was always the same. And it is interesting that the plagues which you Know, Covid wasn't exactly at the bubonic plague, but the solution, I mean, you have a.

[Carole Houlton]

Didn't Henry James complain about the. The crowds?

[Stephen Moore]

Yes, and the cheap baubles in the shops. But I'd love to see the cheap baubles Henry James was looking at.

[Carole Houlton]

He was painting to try and keep those traditions. He was worried about the traditions.

[Stephen Moore]

You see, Carol, people forget Canaletto. They were basically very fancy postcards. Canaletto had a sketchbook, which is still, I think, is it in the academia or it's in one of the local collections. And basically you went through this sketchbook and he said, we like. Like Queen Mary. We like that. We like that. Can we have one of those? But can we have it bigger? And Consul Smith, who was the British consul and was his de facto agent, that's the reason there's so many amazing canalettos in British collections. Because if he hadn't have taken them up, he was just a kind of. His father was a painter, but his father was a painter of just vendition scenes. As you again, when I first came here in the 90s, used to see little Venetian scenes and shops which were not the descents, but the spiritual descents. Canaletto. So we look at an amazing Canaletto today, but in reality, it was kind of a postcard, if you're on a grand tour.

[Carole Houlton]

And he was a bit like Alberto, wasn't he, in lamenting the end of real Venetian customs, traditions, vistas, and was trying to preserve them.

[Stephen Moore]

And that was almost 300 years ago. Yes, but you have another lovely connection, which I know you're too shy to talk about, but maybe you will. The icon of the Madonna de la Sute, you have a personal connection to that.

[Alberto Nardi]

No, I mean, talking about the Madonna della Salute, you know, I had a great privilege that unfortunately was. I mean, I have a little bit of complaint because it was not so well known by the Venetian and by everybody, I would like to say, because we were living, you know, the months after the lockdown, you know, I had the privilege that I did, you know, I create, I design, you know, the two new crowns, you know, for this icon that is at the center of the Basilica della Salute. At the center of the Basilica della Salute, there is a Greek icon that was in Candia, you know, that was one of these Greek islands under the Venetian, you know, and came to Venice, you know, in 17th century. And it is an icon that brings good luck, you know, and protect the city of Venice. So in 1922, was after the big Spanish flu and you know, the first world one and everything. A Venetian jeweler design, design first, you know, Corredo we called. So I mean crowns and some jewels just to make this icon very beautiful during, you know, the days of La Madonna de la Cerute that are in November, you know, in 2022, you know, the bishop asked me to make a new crown, you know, two new crowns for this icon. And what I did, I studied, you know, I. I made a short, you know, of value of all the ex voto, you know, all these jewels that, you know, the, the people, you know, give to the. For free, of course, to the, to the living in the altar, you know, of the Basilica del Salute. So I mean, we. I didn't know that, you know, the church said that you can convert, you know, this ex voto, you know, made in gold, you know, in something that is used for the same purpose, you know, you could. The. The church, I mean, generally speaking, they can't sell, you know, this kind of items. So I mean, I, I made a study of the value that is quite huge of all the gold that this priest have, you know. And then I designed, you know, two new crowns. I had to pass through different, you know, views by all the priests for theological issues and stuff like that. And so we melted a very small part of this gold, you know, and we created these two new crowns, you know, and now, I don't know, they use them. I don't know. I think in August they were there, you know, and I'm very proud because I have to tell you something that is in a certain way a secret. I asked the permission to put my name Alberto Nadia on the back of one of the crown. And they say, okay, why not? I mean, it's signed with my name, you know. And you know, as a Venetian, as a lover of the city, as not a good Christian, of course, but, you know, it's something that, you know, we remain and you know, probably our purpose in life is to leave a small seed, you know, after us, you know. And I thought that was a very nice story tell. And you know, unfortunately I was not so good, probably in promote as good as I could, you know, this fantastic story.

[Carole Houlton]

It's an amazing story and a wonderful thing for you to leave to the city. A great gift. Why did your family originally come to Venice? Was it because it was this great trading?

[Alberto Nardi]

My grandfather was Florentine, was not Venetian and he came here to fight during the first world one, you know, that was, as I said before, fighting in this region against the Austrian and At the end of the war, he met a girl and, you know, he felt in love with this girl. He came back to Florence, and then he said to his mama, I want to find this girl once again because I'm in love with her. And he found this girl that was living near the station of Venice, and he just decided to get married with her. And my grandmother, she was very Venetian, but she was very cold and tough, you know. And so she said to him, okay, we get married, but you have to come to live in Venice, because I don't come to live in Florence. And this small story tell us a lot of things because, you know, for a man of the end of, you know, 19th century, being moving from Florence to Venice is not so obvious, you know. And as Metternich say, you know, Italy was the country of the 100 capitals, you know, it's not like England, where you have London or France, where you have Paris, you know, Venice was divided, you know, in so many different republics, small republics. So, I mean, everybody is very proud to be Florenti, Bolognese, Milanese and Roman and Venetian, you know. So, I mean, seeing this man from Florence moving for love is something that. It's very sweet after me.

[Carole Houlton]

And you stayed here ever since. He was a designer, a sort of a designer.

[Alberto Nardi]

So he opened the store in the second part of the 20s, and he was doing, I mean, not high kind of jewels, of course, but I have books of his sketches that are quite primitive, but very beautiful. I mean, throughout the years, I always discover, you know, the fact of the beauty of the. How do you say, the imperfection, you know, I mean, he was not a professional designer. The sketches are not perfect, they are not so beautiful. But at the end. At the end they are not so boring, you know, they are full of appeal and atmosphere. So, I mean, he was a designer. He was a very charismatic man. I have book of sort of. How do you say, dedications of people that really made the history of the last century, you know, that write very nice notes about him.

[Carole Houlton]

When we were talking about the city, inspiring designs, there is the sort of. What was the famous. One of the famous Venetian icons was the Moretti. This is quite a sort of challenging thing in the modern world, isn't it? So these, for people listening, can you describe what they are?

[Stephen Moore]

Well, it is a black figure ahead and shoulders with often with a turban and because very bejeweled. But the history of them is that they were not slaves, they were. No, nobody really knows exactly what they were. But if you Put it into the historic context of Venice, which we've already spoken about. Venice was a melting pot and a cultural crossroads. People weren't discriminated against in Venice. You'd be discriminated in Venice if they couldn't buy something from you. That's how the Lucia saw you. They saw new people as a new opportunity. They weren't bothered about your skin color, your creed or whatever. We have to remember that we are used to a moment, multicultural society, where people look different to us, dress different, might have a different skin color. But go back 500 years, and it was only places like Venice where you would see such a myriad of difference. And to my mind, the simplest answer to what the Baretti are they're a celebration, an evocation of difference. They're celebrating that difference in a way which would have been so strange to a traveler. And if you came to Venice 500 years ago and you would see all these. This myriad of different races and religions and people dressed in lavish clothing that might seem ostentatious to modern eyes, you might want to bring that back as a souvenir. So it's nothing to do with slavery. To my mind, it's a celebration of difference. And they weren't even African. They're Turkish figures, aren't they?

[Alberto Nardi]

Yeah, the word moreto moros, you know, in Spanish, I mean, for the Venetians were not just describing people from Africa. They were describing people with, you know, dark skin. They could be Middle east figures, you know, like Turkish or they could be. So, I mean, they were not a category that was discriminating, you know, African or Turkish people. As we said many times during this conversation, you know, Venice was a very free port, was a melting pot of different cultures. I mean, we were very welcoming to everybody. It was bringing business.

[Carole Houlton]

So has it been eradicated, really, from Venetian life Now?

[Alberto Nardi]

Once again, another paradox about Nardi. You know, where I was, I mean, my grandfather, as I said before, was Florentine, was not Venetian, and he started to make and to design this Moretti, you know, and, you know, so we never said that we invented them, because these pieces, they go back, you know, in the history of Venetian goldsmiths. But what happened is that throughout the years, you know, the Moriti of Nadians, perhaps especially the one that they have the signature G, that is Giulio, that was the first name of my grandfather, Nardi, they became the very famous one, I can say. And also when they pass through auction, everybody is searching for this G. Nardi Moretti.

[Carole Houlton]

I just saw two at auction at Druitt's in England, he became very famous.

[Alberto Nardi]

For these pieces, you know, so a non Venetian became, you know, the master of very iconic Venetian object, you know. And what I'm trying to do now is to give a new life to this kind of object, you know. And then I decided, you know, after a lot of meditation, you know, to continue to make them because, you know, this is something, it's a patrimony that is linked with the history of Venice. So I mean we don't have to stop in front of inyards in a straight away. And as pointed out perfectly still even, you know, you have to know, you know, history behind before, I mean, I don't like the word judging. But before saying something, I will, I will be very silly from my side if I come to England and I start to say something about your history, you know, without knowing anything at all. You know, I studied this issue for many years. I know that there is nothing against anybody and I'm a very open mind person. So I will not accept discriminate anybody at all. But you know, at the same time, you know, the people must, you know, accept the fact that these pieces, they are very opposite of what most of the people think.

[Carole Houlton]

And how do you make them?

[Alberto Nardi]

Now what I like about us is the fact that we are independent jeweler. I mean, we are still jeweler. I mean, we produce what we sell. And I still use some of the old design of my grandfather and my father too, you know. So I like to present them, you know, with that old, you know, layout of the and with the old techniques, you know, because, you know, our artisan, they come from the old one that they were at the time of my father and grandfather. And so I still make them. What I did in the last couple of years is also to give a different version especially for certain, you know, countries that they have this kind of issue, you know, and is proposing them with an amber face, you know, with the amber face. Amber was used by the time of my grandfather in the 50s. So I mean it's linked with our history. So the idea is to propose them with not ethnic, with no ethnical issues, but just from an aesthetic point of view. So they are very beautiful pieces. And I call them the Venetian, you know. And why the Venetian? Because the Venetian they were merchant and in most of the cases they were dressed are Turkish, you know, in the old time we have, you know, sketches of the Gravenbroeck, that was a very important German sketcher, you know, of the 16th century, where you have a lot of beautiful Views of these Venetian merchants, they were dressed as Oriental figures. So I think the word divination I like a lot.

[Carole Houlton]

And actually the turquoise, the stone really took its name from Turkish because it was all the Turkish merchants and traders dealing in this blue stone. So that's how that got its name.

[Alberto Nardi]

We have to say that, you know, Venice is still an island, you know, and so there is this social, you know, attitude that was very democratic also in the old time. I mean, the Venetian, they were trying to do also, if it's possible, business together. You know, they were using, you know, the possibility of sharing, you know, the risk of boats, you know, from different merchants. And if we compare the history of Venice with the history of Florence, for example, they were a similar city. I'm talking about the 16th century. You know, the greatness of Venice was this aspect because the Florentine people, they were very. People very split, you know, always fighting. And if we check, for example, if we see a palace in Florence, we are going to see that this family, noble palaces, they look like fortress, you know, and the Venetian are completely the opposite, you know, so this. This aspect of being in a certain way, you know, all together, because we are part of an island, a tiny island is something that is still. I mean, it's incredible to say now because we are linked to the countryside and we are talking about the modern and contemporary time, but it's still there, it's still in our blood.

[Carole Houlton]

And I guess it's a tiny island that, as we've just been discussing, has influenced the world globally through the gemstones, through the trade, and through these cultural objects that really are invested historically with a sense of Venice that you are still making at Alberto, you.

[Alberto Nardi]

Yeah. You know, I always say to my kids, you know, that what gives me always passion in what I'm doing is the fact of trying or being in a certain way, an ambassador of the beauty of the city. This is my goal, you know, what I'm trying to be, is to be an ambassador of the city and trying to give also a different view of. Of the city from, you know, the cheap, you know, kitsch view that we are showing now during, you know, this touristic invasion that we have in front of us. So, I mean, just showing, you know, that. Showing them, I mean, to young people that there could be a way. It could be a way of doing business, because, I mean, we are not, you know, here just for, I mean, doing culture or social things, but, I mean, we are here for selling items, but in a very elegant, in a very niche way and trying also to make this cultural work that I said before talking about, you know, the Moretto or the Masque collection.

[Carole Houlton]

We are in a small room off the main store to talk and behind Alberto is the biggest safe with these turning wheels. And we're now going to open the safe and take some images of the jewels so I can show everybody on Instagram and YouTube as they listen to our talk, that they can look at the jewels as well.

[Alberto Nardi]

Thank you very much. I mean, it was a great pleasure and honor. I mean, to talk about my city, first of all, and us, of course. I always say that, you know, we have a small history, family history in a big history that is the big history of the city of Venice. And, you know, it is not easy to continue, you know, this sort of journey that we are doing, but I mean, we do with a lot of passion and love, you know, in all the items that we are going to show you now.

[Carole Houlton]

Stephen, thank you very much for coming across from your apartment on the Grand Canal and sharing your view of Venice and the history.

[Stephen Moore]

Thank you. I mean, just one sort of final word. I think whilst we all do cry the diminishing of craftsmanship and artisans in Venice, those places that have survived, like Nardi, I think that makes them all the more precious. And Nardi, forgive me for saying I'm a bit to embarrass you, but Nardi is a very precious jewel in Veneza's crown and long, long may she reign.

[Alberto Nardi]

Thank you very much. It's very appreciated.

[Carole Houlton]

Thank you both so much. Thank you for listening. For this and other episodes of if Jules Could Talk, please go to our website carolwalton.com podcasts if you've enjoyed it, share it any way you can and we'd love to have a rating and a comment. We're also on YouTube and you can listen in to a couple of recent radio interviews I've done about the new book Hooray, if Jules Could Talk. The book is out now from all good bookstores and from Amazon as described in the FT as the book from the hit podcast if Jules Could Talk. And the South China Morning Post kindly put us as number too on their list of fashion podcasts that make you think so. Join me again in two weeks for the next jeweled nugget. We are staying in Venice and I'm visiting the island of Murano and we're going to be talking to one of the best glass makers who makes glass beads on Murano. You will come with me into her studio. You will talk probably be glad that you weren't there the day I recorded it. Because the temperature reached nearly 40 degrees. It was hot. And then she lit her furnace and started melting glass. Join me then and hear all about it. And thank you for listening. Bye. Bye. If Jules Could Talk with Carole Walton is produced by Natasha Cowan. Music and editing by Tim Thornton. Graphics by Scott Bentley. Illustration by Jordi Labanda. You can find our sponsors at fully gemstones.com and [e-mail].