← If Jewels Could Talk with Carol Woolton
If Jewels Could Talk with Carol Woolton
LIVE at Harvey Nichols with Anna Murphy, Fashion Director at The Times
00:46:24
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- [00:23]
Carol Houlton
I'm Carol Houlton, the voice of jewellery. Welcome to if Jules Could Talk. I'm an author and broadcaster and the woman who initiated the role of jewellery editor at magazines like Tatler and Vogue. This is a podcast for everyone, for people who do like jewellery, for people who don't realise they like jewellery, and anyone intrigued by fascinating facts, new ideas and forgotten histories. So join me as I tell sparkly tales and meet all sorts of people delving into four centuries of jewellery culture and investigate what's happening now.
- [01:08]
Event Host
Well, hello and good evening, everyone. Tonight we are honoured to welcome two exceptional women. First, Harold Walton, the expert author, jewelry historian. As everyone here will know, Carol has an extraordinary gift covering the fascinatings and stories behind some of the world's most incredible jewels. And we're thrilled to have her here tonight. And we are equally delighted to be joined by Anna Murphy, author and fashion director of the Times and one of the most insightful commentators on fashion today. Carol and Anna will be discussing fashion trends house by jewellery and will then be taking questions at the end of their conversation.
- [01:46]
Carol Houlton
Thank you all for joining us and for our. If Jules could talk live with us at Harvey Nichols, which is very exciting and we're delighted to have Anna. And sadly, we miss Kate Thielen, creative director of Harvey Mickels, who I worked with for 20 years above, but sadly, she was called away for a family emergency. What I wanted to talk with Anna about primarily is how important jewelry is as an expression, expression of style. And I wanted to know from her, has it replaced the handbag as the new personal style statement?
- [02:29]
Anna Murphy
The handbag is still very much in play, but I think in terms of a truly personal statement, it probably is about jewelry, because I think what one can do with jewelry, and actually the clue is in the title of your podcast, is one can tell a story. You know, a handbag is one thing. It can be a very beautiful thing, it can be a thing that makes you feel confident, makes you feel chic, empowers you, but it's one thing. Whereas curating your jewelry landscape, whether that's what you're wearing, your neck, your ears, your fingers, your wrists, there's just lots of different strands and no woman is going to look exactly the same. So I think they're both in play. But yes, in terms of personal story, it probably is more about jewellery, but
- [03:15]
Carol Houlton
people will spend so much on their handbags. That sort of amazes me as a jewelry person because I look at these handbags and I think, but they could have gone on the water supply and fantastic Just as it that they don't put on the floor and doesn't get trashed and kind of does last forever and the handbag won't.
- [03:33]
Anna Murphy
I just, I think the other thing is a really kind of basic thing about jewelry, especially jewelry that you buy to be around your face essentially, whether it's ears or, or necklace, we are consumed first and foremost is via our faces. So that's why I love jewelry trends. Truly transformative.
- [03:52]
Carol Houlton
So you like that as opposed to the fact that it is creating a look.
- [03:59]
Anna Murphy
I think it's all those things that's the magic, isn't it? And, and you don't. You can go in different directions. You know, one day you can wear something perhaps more architectural and another day you can wear something a bit more kind of twinkly, to use a non technical term, Macaren, you would never wear. And I, and I think, you know, as women, one of the great joys of fashion and jewellery is you don't have to choose. You know, quite often as fashion director at the time, women coming to me say, you know, I feel overwhelmed by fashion. I don't know which way to go. I think the great thing about jewellery is you don't with fashion, you know, you've got to factor in the cut. What, you know, does this change jacket shaped work for you? Whatever it is, jewellery, you can just sort of go with the flow. You don't need to worry so much about, you know, what, what kind of works with your body shape so much. So there's, there's a kind of extra freedom there, I suppose.
- [04:52]
Carol Houlton
And do you think it's important that the jewellery keeps pace again?
- [04:56]
Anna Murphy
Part of its power and its magic is the timelessness and the fact that maybe you're wearing something that belonged to your aren't, but you're wearing it in a new way. You know, I think to wear those kind of really ornate pieces but with a very simple kind of cashmere crew neck jumper or a pair of jeans or, you know, there's, there's something really, really wonderful about that. But then there is, there is a great joy to just something that's kind of ineffable now. I mean, it's interesting how one of the things that I've been going through personally, so I've always been a huge earring junkie and as Carol knows, because we go back a long way, which is very strange because they're both in our early 20s. What does one call an earring wardrobe? Anyway, I've got one and they're just not Working. So I'm these earrings of a British brand that I love completed works that does a sort of fine jewelry section. I'm sure many. I'm sure many of you know them and they are. Yeah, they're quite sort of geometric in their style. So I'm having to wear more of this sort of thing. And I've also been always. I've never done the whole ear creation thing. I'm practically the only woman on the front row. And now I'm thinking, ooh, should I. Now I'm sure, well, what, Carol, what? You see, I want to ask Carol questions because tell me, where are we? You know, as a fellow earring lover, where are we on ear curations?
- [06:16]
Carol Houlton
I think Fiona Golfar, who was the editor at large at Vogue years ago, was one of the first really. She divvied all the way up here. And every day I'd look at her and think, what are you going to do when you take those out? You're going to have holes everywhere. And she still does have holes. She's taken it out. She's quite clever of the way she's restyled it. But there still are holes. One day, Nisinda Chambers, the fashion director and have a new piercing done sort of right up here. And I was actually at the time writing this story all about the weight of Eric. My eternal regret for this story. What things I did for though I had my piercing sewn up by sort of in micro stitches. Didn't wear earrings for that for a while and then had it re pierced. Well, it's been floppy ever since, I can tell you. But this ear doctor who I went to see who was telling me all about the weight of earrings and what was right and what wasn't right, told me, never have a piercing at the top of your ear because there's no blood flow. So if you get an infection, it's very serious. And he had had to. He had often had to take people's ears off because the price of fashion. I go back into the fashion room at Vogue and there's Lucinda Chambers sitting there with this pulsating, effective.
- [07:37]
Anna Murphy
But all day long, if you really love earrings, I feel as if I think that's why I haven't had it done is because I love earrings too much to have things that detract from the main attraction, as it were. So tell me about these utter beauties.
- [07:50]
Carol Houlton
Well, these were Christmas present to myself. The best, best kind of Christmas present. I justified it on the fact that it was probably less than a handbag. And that they're 1860 citrine. And what I love about them is this sort of color. And really I sort of buy Dewey, I think, on the basis that if I put it on and I keep taking thinking about it and it just is there, it's all. And it fits me. I feel like it's mine and then I leave it. And if I go away and keep thinking about it, I know it's something I have to go back to. How do you buy.
- [08:25]
Anna Murphy
Yeah, similar. And I do love. There is something wonderful about finding a vintage piece, vintage rings, this one and this one that are both from felt, which is just down the road. And it's very dangerous when you discover about her treasure boxes where she gets out. It's a very slippery slope, suffice it to say. But I think it's that thing, isn't it, of something that exists, but is one of a kind and somehow it fits your finger or it works with your hair. I mean, the color of those citrines with your hair is just so great. It just feels even more magical, really, doesn't it? So I do love a bit of a vintage thing, but, yes, I suppose I've got brands that I. I know I like what they do and they're the ones I look at, but I think, as per fashion, it's great to kind of be prepared to be surprised and come across a new brand. And I mean, I wanted to ask you about. Is there a particular, newer band that we might not have heard of? I know many of the audience are clearly almost as experts as you, but that you particularly like and why?
- [09:31]
Carol Houlton
Well, I mean, I'm sort of completely seduced by what I see, and so I'll see something new and then I'm like, crazy about that for quite a
- [09:45]
Anna Murphy
while and I'll wear it, wear it,
- [09:46]
Carol Houlton
and then I'll find something else. So it's so hard for me to pinpoint a brand because I'm just, as I say, seduced so easily all the time. But I've been quite interested in people going back to sort of heritage crafts, in creating something modern, but using heritage crafts. I had a young jeweler, Cece Fine Hughes, on the podcast recently because she had created the rings for Margot Robbie and Jacob Elodie that Margot Robbie gave him a duel when they finished the film Wolverine Heights. And it again, it's the sort of new way to create something personal. It's about engraving, it's about a gemstone, it's about a sort of figurative inscription that means something to the wearer. So I'm sort of quite into this
- [10:36]
Anna Murphy
at the moment and also I think that palpable artisanship is really appealing, isn't it? We are in this world of peak stuff, you know, just a lot of stuff to buy, including a lot of expensive stuff to buy. But it can be a bit kind of samey and when you see a piece that, that has that sense of history to it and craftsmanship, I think that's, that's very appealing.
- [10:58]
Carol Houlton
Makes it very special.
- [10:59]
Anna Murphy
Yeah.
- [11:00]
Carol Houlton
What do you think makes a piece of jewellery look modern? Is it the way, way you push it or how you wear it or is it just a new design?
- [11:11]
Anna Murphy
Yeah, I mean like I wouldn't just wear classic pearls for example because I think I especially kind of, my kind of age, I need to, I need to kind of change it up a bit. So you know Tasaki pearls. Yes. But it kind of my, you know, my mother's string of pearls, I wouldn't wear that because I, I just think I'd, I look a bit frumpy when I dress like that. So I am always looking either for something that is really quite contemporary. I mean that's another thing I like about, well, this is another brand I love Alexandra Jefford, another British brand. And these diamonds are actually my grandmother's and set in a very old fashioned in a bad way ring and she reset them in this I think very beautiful kind of geometric style. So, so I, it's, it, I do go for something that is palpably contemporary unless I go for something really quite sort of Victorian. But as I said I'm, I'm having to retool on the. Because I, I, I'm having to retool on the earring. So that's a watering brief cowl. I might need to give me, I might need to give me an earring related therapy session because yeah, like those kind of, those I love but on me now they wouldn't look right, I don't think.
- [12:20]
Carol Houlton
Well, so would they look right on anyone?
- [12:22]
Anna Murphy
These? Yeah, they, Yeah, I don't know.
- [12:24]
Carol Houlton
You would. So what did you think of the Oscars last night? Did you notice what jewelry they were wearing? It would seem to be diamonds and diamonds and diamonds.
- [12:33]
Anna Murphy
Yeah. That is quite, isn't it? Because obviously we're, we're hearing more and more about colored stones and certainly I'm incredibly drawn to colored stones. But when it comes to the ultimate big night, everyone was in diamonds really weren't there. And actually mostly quite minimalist in as much as one can describe a hardcore diamond necklace as minimalist, that it was all quite restrained.
- [12:55]
Carol Houlton
I call it safe. Yeah, it was safe. No one takes a risk. They have, you know, possibly a little chandelier, the. The classic necklace. It's very, very safe.
- [13:07]
Anna Murphy
Why do you think that is?
- [13:09]
Carol Houlton
I think because those pictures go around the world and they stay and they're bought up year upon year. And I think they just. The stylists now control everything to the nth degree and there is no risk involved. It's not like Cher and Bob Mackie saying wild, crazy things should we do.
- [13:30]
Anna Murphy
Also, if you think about it, the stylists aren't jewelry experts. They're not you. You know, they clearly get it, think about jewelry. But they start from the position of the dress. Yeah. Play it a bit too safe with the. With the neck.
- [13:44]
Carol Houlton
And I'm afraid they probably are being paid to wear the necklace that they're wearing and as if they're signed up to Vuitton Dior, they're going to wear the jewelry with it, aren't they? Yeah.
- [13:54]
Anna Murphy
Although often they seem to have a different relationship. It does seem to be, you know, Vuitton for the dress, someone else with the necklace. But it is the obvious players, isn't it? It's not the kind of quirkier. And indeed they're not any antique jewelry, I think, which was. I think there have been in the awards season, some. I think at baftas there were some antique jewels, but last night I didn't clock anything antique.
- [14:15]
Carol Houlton
No, I mean, the men in brooches again. Yeah, definitely. That's the sort of. The modern thing. It looks new. I mean, if you're looking at jewelry, do you have a different vision in your head of what you would buy to what you'll write about?
- [14:32]
Anna Murphy
No, I think I'm. Rightly or wrongly, with jewellery, I do tend to write about sort of what I love and I think in terms of spending money, readers do want pearls and diamonds, actually, because they know that they'll sort of go with everything and. But I think there has been that. Move away. There has been that understanding that if you want to. For me, I think one of the most important things to look, because it's so. It renders you more youthful, is that there's always something about you that is kind of contemporary and jewellery is the ultimate way to kind of do that because actually it means you can wear just a really beautiful black trouser suit, put on a modernized pearl earring or necklace or whatever, and you just, yeah, look more. Look more sort of youthful. And I sort of have been slightly banging on about that as readers forever and they are listening. I think it's, you know, it's a. It's a really kind of magical thing. As I say, you can wear something very plain, very classic. Change it up a little bit with a. With a jewel or two. And yeah, look, look, you want to look current, you want to look 20, 26 and. And jewellery is a way to do that. You know, if you look at your mix, yes, you've got these stunning 19th century earrings, but the overall ensemble that you've got in terms of your jewels and your look is very now, you know, you're wearing jeans, you're mixing. I mean, I think one of the defining aspects of contemporary fashion is code mixing, essentially. So a generation ago, someone wouldn't have worn that beautiful tailored blazer with jeans. And the fact that you're doing that is what makes you look correct. And you're doing the same with jewelry.
- [16:21]
Carol Houlton
Except, I mean, I suppose this goes back to jewellery making a difference in that we all wear jeans. We all wear jeans every day, mind you, and trainers. And so how do you look different for the next person?
- [16:34]
Anna Murphy
Well, I think part of it is that mix. If I look at you now, it is your jewelry that is changing, you know, as I would expect, being very on brand. Jewelry and fashion is a way to love yourself and feel better about yourself and present to the world in a way that makes you feel better about yourself and empowers you.
- [16:56]
Carol Houlton
I was interested by what you said earlier, that when you go to the shows, you get more idea about what's happening from the women attending the show than what they're wearing than what's happening on the Runway.
- [17:08]
Anna Murphy
Yeah, I mean, the shows are fascinating for lots of reasons. The obvious thing is the actual show, you get to see a designer's vision for the next season. The ones I like to look at are the early adopters. So they're the ones who are already wearing that slightly weird thing from the new season that you. I saw on the Catwalk and thought, oh, I'm really not sure about that. They saw on the Catwalk and thought, yes, I think I'm a gym adopter. I'm not a later doctor because I wouldn't be in my job if I were. But I'm definitely not an early adopter. So it's like, what are they doing? And terribly is when I see some event that I start to think, oh, actually maybe that does work. And what they typically do. And although fashion presents incredibly Youth obsessed. As I said, many of the women in power in their 40s and 50s and 60s, what the best of them do is their. The sort of bare bones of their wardrobe is quite classic, but they change it up with the Adolph. And so they change it up with the jewelry, they change it up with the shoes. I mean, everything I was saying about contemporaneous, I think shoes is another sort of way to do that. And also, of course, you know, as we see from all the pictures, they change up with sunglasses. And I do remember the first time I went to the shows and I was, you know, I was young at the time, looking at these women thinking, oh, you know, what are those sunglasses? Like properly mad, you know, huge, weird shapes or whatever. But of course, now I see what they're doing is actually, you know, wearing clothes that kind of work with their bodies, fit their life, but avoiding looking too predictable, because looking predictable is aging. Having something in the mix or one or two or three things in the mix that are unpredictable is kind of youth endowing.
- [18:53]
Carol Houlton
Good. That's a good tip. Good tip. So what is the weird thing from this scene season that we might all be wearing next winter?
- [19:03]
Anna Murphy
Well, I think we are. I keep going back to Matteo Blasey, but I think, you know, what he's doing at Chanel is. Is the thing that everyone's talking about during Paris Fashion Week, his first collection exclusively in Paris. It's now available in London, but for a week it was only available in Paris. And I know of two people who each spent $70,000 and Chappelle in one, in one go. But I think what he's. One of the things in his mix, because he is offering alternatives, is in a way pertains to what you were saying, Carol, about that craftsmanship and artisanship. So these pieces that are really just beautiful and embellished and precious looking, whether that's an amazing embellished jacket, whether that's a beautiful skirt. I mean, actually last night at the Oscars, Tiana Taylor, I don't know whether any of you saw remarkable sort of fringed Chanel floor sweeper and lots of that kind of fringing in the collection. Just. Just utter specialness, but. But with a kind of ease to it. So I think we're going to be seeing lots of versions of that. In fact, I was walking on the Regent street the other day and saw a jacket in one of the High street brands that was the Spit.
- [20:11]
Carol Houlton
So which one was that? Which High Street? We'll all go tomorrow.
- [20:16]
Anna Murphy
I mean, Nina said it might have been Arquette. Have you got any projects?
- [20:22]
Carol Houlton
I've just. While you were in Paris, I was in Palm Beach.
- [20:26]
Anna Murphy
Oh, darling, that's one upmanship.
- [20:30]
Carol Houlton
I did a kind of whistle stop visit there for three days because I've been invited to curate a jewelry exhibition at a place called the Flagler Museum in Palm beach, which I don't know if any of you know. It's a Beaux Art mansion built by Henry Flagler, who was the partner of Rockefeller and he was sort of in the ilk of the Vanderbilts, Frick in New York and they created these mansions and made them sort of stage sets for their wealth. And he opened up Florida with all the railroads and anyway, it's now a museum and they've asked me to curate a jewellery show on the Gilded Age. Ooh, wonderful. And so I'm talking to. I've got. Because the Gilded Age was such a sort of transatlantic alliance between the wealth and scale and confidence of America. Going to Paris to work with the French craftspeople Worse and Cartier get their dresses made at Worse, go next door to Cartier, get the jewellery, then they'd marry the British aristocrats. And so I'm going to have this great transatlantic alliance in the show and mirror it. So I've got pieces from British aristocratic families here who are loaning me their tiaras. I've got French Maison opening up their archives. I've got big US collectors so it's going to be this sort of great mix.
- [21:58]
Anna Murphy
She says, if Jules could talk. Which. Which jewelry in that exhibition has the best story that you've come across so far? Is there a particularly wonderful something?
- [22:10]
Carol Houlton
Well, I've got some wonderful pieces that will relate definitively to some of the dollar Princesses because maybe the most well known one was Consuelo Vanderbilt, who's married the Duke of Marlborough. The Marlborough Fanny basically married three American heiresses in. In succession. Hence the roof of Blenheim palace is still on. And they weren't stupid. Anyway, Consuelo eventually abandoned the Duke and went to Palm beach and she built an amazing house there, which I met the current owners.
- [22:45]
Anna Murphy
Wow.
- [22:46]
Carol Houlton
So anyway, they very sweetly invited me for coffee and so I went to soak up Consuelo and.
- [22:53]
Anna Murphy
And though the dollar, obviously the Dollar princess has bought, bought, brought their money to Britain, as you suggest. Did they bring a different aesthetic or was it more about buying into the European aesthetic?
- [23:06]
Carol Houlton
Well, they bought a new aesthetic to Paris really because of the scale and confidence. So they worked with the fine jewelry houses and there's a great Sort of Manchester tiara, which was in the Vietnamese collection, which was commissioned by one of the dollar princesses. But she turned up with sort of 500 diamonds and said, here you go.
- [23:25]
Anna Murphy
Wow.
- [23:25]
Carol Houlton
So they didn't want that traditional British tiara, the sort of family fender. They wanted something higher and brighter and, you know, they had the wealth to prove it and the status, the new status. And they weren't going to do it in the heritage way, they were going to do it in their way. They were new people with a new look. And I've asked Julian Fellows, who wrote the Gilded Age for Sky, to open it for me. So he's going to come and open this, which will be fun. But now back to how to buy jewellery. They knew how to buy it back in. Back in the Gilded Age. But how do all of us, on limited budgets, how do we buy it?
- [24:05]
Anna Murphy
I think, I mean, you said earlier, Carol, how important it is to have a feeling for something.
- [24:10]
Carol Houlton
A feeling. Do you go with your colouring?
- [24:13]
Anna Murphy
I think that it can be helpful. But I think there's two different things in play with fashion and jewellery now. There's two different ways to shop. There's what flatters and there's what you kind of love. And they might be different things. And the important thing is to be, especially represents investment is to be with the piece. And I think, go back and forth a few times, you know, if you're spending money, go to the shop, try it on, go away, have a think about it, go back again, wear different things, be in a different mood. And it sounds like a stupid thing to say. Well, actually, I'll give a sort of fashion anecdote, but some. A few years ago when I interviewed Carolina Herrera, who, as I'm sure you know, is, you know, the most soigne fashion designer ever, I think she's now in her 80s. She was just unbelievably chic. Of course, she was wearing one of her crisp white shirts and just looking incredible and some amazing jewelry. And I was asking for her for all her fashion wisdom and I said, oh, you know, Carolyn, what. What should every woman have in. In their wardrobe? I was like, well, I have the answer. I was like, at last she's going to say, you know, is it lift a black dress? Is it a trouser suit? She said, every single woman must have in their wardrobe. She's quite brilliantly bustling in a kind of Latina way. It's very fabulous. Must have a full length mirror. I thought, oh, of course to. And actually, obviously you don't need a full length mirror for jewellery unless you're really going some very long earrings. But really use a mirror. Really look at yourself in the thing you're thinking about buying. Go away, come back, go away, come back and you will sort of know. I think, should it work with different looks? Well, again, it depends on your budget, it depends on how you're going to wear it. And I think that's another mistake that people make with jewelry and fashion is they buy for a kind of imagined life rather than a real life. Are you actually going to wear this thing?
- [26:19]
Carol Houlton
That's a very good point. You buy because you think, God, senso looks great in that if I wear that, I'll have a different life.
- [26:27]
Anna Murphy
Which is not to say you shop small and boring. I mean, you're just coming back to your wonderful earrings. Again, they are a case in point. Like a different woman would buy these earrings and think, I'm saving them for best. You know, I'm wearing to a cocktail party, actually buy those earrings, but wear them on a Monday night with a navy blazer. That it's not about only buying safe, it's about be honest about the life you live and sort of shop for it. And that, as I say, the same goes for clothes.
- [26:57]
Carol Houlton
And do you think, I mean, you are telling us in very. In the times, in a sort of classic way, that you are writing and telling us and advising us how we should buy things. But I'm very interested now in who are the. Who's shaping taste, because before it was taken for granted, it was the journalists. But how much do you think social media is influencing what people buy now?
- [27:26]
Anna Murphy
Yeah, I mean, I think there's just a diversity across the board of influence and of style and the two things are interrelated. So, you know, back in the day, if we go back, let's take a sort of key moment in fashion, the immediate post Second World War period, that, that Dior new look of 1947 that we all have in our heads with a tiny jacket and a huge skirt, you know, you can't get more wonderful than that. But Chris Dingell was sort of saying, this is how you have to look, this is the silhouette you have to wear. And then what is less well known is that the next season, you know, so that Dior woman would buy that huge skirt the next season. It was a totally different thing. It was totally different shape. Don't wear that skirt now. Wear this every six months, complete change. So it was very hierarchical, you know, the fashion designer and the sort of you know, 12 journalists who are allowed in the room with a fashion, fashion designer told women what to wear. And there was a right and a wrong. And you know, what has changed now is lots of different influence coming from different places. And I think some people, and I get it, do feel overwhelmed by that because there isn't a clear right and wrong. I've been seated for the last month with the same people on the front row and they're totally different looks. You know, there'll be women that I've never seen in a skirt or a dress, always in trousers.
- [28:49]
Carol Houlton
That's me.
- [28:50]
Anna Murphy
And you know, there'll be someone else I never see in trousers. And that's. And they're both fabulously chic. So I do think that, that diversity is a good thing. I mean, what I will say about journalists is I am not, I am paid to be a journalist and not paid to influence you to buy something. And influencers, the clue is in the name are paid. So if I tell you to buy something, it's because I think it's great. No one's paying me whatever amount of money. So. So I do think that there is a sort of potency to good journalism. And that's a broader thing. It's not only about dresses and jewelry, it's also about news. You know, if you open the Times to read about all the awful things that are happening in the Middle east at the moment, you know that you're being told what's actually happening as opposed to, you know, opinion, unless it's clearly presented as an opium piece.
- [29:51]
Carol Houlton
Yes.
- [29:52]
Anna Murphy
So I'm a big advocate of journalism and I, what I would say in the shows is there was a big pendulum swing towards influencers and now there are very few really. And the ones who are there are very important, influential figures who have lots of followers and brackets also get paid lots of money to, you know, recommend things. But, but I think the journalists still, I'd say it swung back and forth with the journalists. What I would also say is that if you write for something like the Times, you know, our readership has the money to buy beautiful things. You know, for example, the Times is a key newspaper for the legal profession. So, you know, we have lots of kind of barristers and cases and things. They've got the money to buy a beautiful pair of earrings or a Chanel handbag or whatever. It is in a way that I think people who follow, you know, to have many hundreds of thousand people who follow a sort of, you know, 25 year old influencer probably don't So I. I think we have that kind of financial leverage, which means that we. We sort of matter to the brand.
- [30:57]
Carol Houlton
Yes, well, totally. You can tell that when you read. But I mean, everything's out for first on it Instagram, isn't it?
- [31:06]
Anna Murphy
Essentially, I mean, I think the thing in the fashion industry, I mean, I don't know whether it's the same with jewellery specifically. I'd be interested to hear your views, Carol. But a lot of people in the fashion industry just exist in this bubble of fashion and they're obsessed with it. It's their sort of waking and sleeping life. But many women who engage with fashion and jewelry and beauty, they're busy doing something else. You know, they absolutely love fashion and jewelry, but they also have a job and a family and hobbies and friends and. And again, for me, because I consider myself to be on the side of the reader, not on the side of the industry. I want to. I just think I've got that sensibility where I understand that the love of fashion and joy sits with other things. And I think the people I write for are the people who actually buy expensive pieces.
- [32:07]
Carol Houlton
And where do you advise people to buy? Do you advise them to look in high streets, department stores, flea markets?
- [32:19]
Anna Murphy
I think across the board now there's that mix of high, low, isn't there? So just because you can afford something expensive, it doesn't mean that everything you wear is so. And again, I think, you know, we start this conversation with this idea of creating a story. And one of the ways of creating a story actually is to mix up things from lots of different pieces, places. I mean, I love vintage. I also, you know, love those. Those kind of quite modest brands like Reposi. I really like the Prison. I think it's quite new. The Parisian brand. Charlotte. Yeah, Cheney again, that same sleeve. Metallic. Yeah. But I wouldn't just sort of want to wear one or the other. I do think. I mean, and this is one of the reasons you're so great. For me, I don't just want to wear obvious brands. I want someone to tell me about CC or, you know, Charlotte Cheney or whoever it is. I. I like to not. I like people to not know where everything's from, whereas I know for some people it's the opposite. They want. They want.
- [33:27]
Carol Houlton
Yes. There's a whole band of people who want to be identified by what they're wearing. It means they're part of a club. Yeah, they. Ankife, Alambra. Well, Cartier Love by Serpenti.
- [33:38]
Anna Murphy
I mean, I totally get that. Is Part of a jigsaw. You know, all that. You know, that love bangle is beautiful. I would wear it, but I would want other stuff. I also really like buying things abroad when there's a particular kind of tradition. I mean, like, I love, I think Italian vintage jewellery can be really fantastic. And you know, the way they really go in for coral, I've got some beautiful 19th century kind of coral earrings that I bought. You know what. And when you go to a city with amazing heritage, like, one of my favorite vintage jewelry shops is in, is in Venice. You know, it just sells the most amazing stuff. Which one? Not an antiquated or something or other. But I also, I was in Hong Kong a couple of years ago, and as you all know, the Chinese and the Hong Kong Chinese have this sort of huge thing for jade. And so suddenly there, there's all this jade that we just don't see here, really. So I do. If I'm going somewhere where I know, I suppose it's the, if Jules could talk thing. I know there's a relationship with jewelry that we maybe don't have here. In the same way that I like to buy things from my home, from other places I do quite like.
- [34:48]
Carol Houlton
Well, they're mementos, they're memories as well. Yeah.
- [34:50]
Anna Murphy
Yeah. And again, the story, there's the story of the Chinese relationship with jade, but there's a story of your journey to Hong Kong and your time there, isn't there?
- [34:59]
Carol Houlton
Do you think people should buy, thinking of its resale value? Or do you should just buy because you love it and not think at some point I want to.
- [35:07]
Anna Murphy
I think you know my answer, that I never love it. I know. Yeah. Because I think that's, it's what you said then.
- [35:14]
Carol Houlton
You said, you don't want to look funny, Daddy. You've got to upgrade at some point. And like your earring collection. What will you do with that? Well, will you sell it?
- [35:24]
Anna Murphy
I don't know yet. I need to, I need to kind of properly regroup. But I, I, I think that this is so personal. I think it's different for everyone. So for me, I have to love something to buy it. And I don't think about resale value. And if that means I occasionally take a hit because I've grown out of something, then I take a hit. And if I do have to sell some of my own collection, I've had, you know, they've given, it's given me so much pleasure. I've had, I've had decades of pleasure. If it, you know, if it cost me some money, you know, that's what money's for, really. And I probably, you know. Yeah, you've made me think I need to try again. Next time you see me, I'll be in the full. I'll be in the full chandelier. And I know you wanted other people to try, but.
- [36:08]
Carol Houlton
Last question, the next big trend. What do you think's coming our way?
- [36:14]
Anna Murphy
I think I have really noticed again, looking at the front row pack that have gone by, there has been a lot of this curation. So little, lots of little earrings and sort of layered up neck messes essentially. And I've really noticed people going for it again with big earrings especially, actually. And needless to say, that makes me very happy. So load it up. Yeah, just. I think, as I said, we just need to take our joy or we can get it right now, don't it?
- [36:48]
Carol Houlton
Anna, thank you so much. That was very informative for us all and lots of tips, good buying tips there. Now, I know other people might like to ask Anna a question, so if anybody would like your terol.
- [37:01]
Anna Murphy
There's a neck mess there that is truly a work of art. How many years has that been in the making? They're all trellises and I wear them every day and I wear them to clean house. Love it, love it. Tattoo and they all.
- [37:17]
Carol Houlton
But everything means something. My focus in this.
- [37:21]
Anna Murphy
Such a cool like so, yeah, everything means something. And they get worn every day. That is the thing, I think meaning. I mean, we didn't actually use that word, did we? But essentially what all of this boils down to is meaning. And actually one of the crises that's been happening in luxury fashion is clothes with an absence of meaning. And it's about the talkiness, isn't it? It's about the stories, it's about the artisanship, it's about the choice you made, the moment when you bought the thing. I think it's what we're all looking for more and more in what we buy. And it's just so pleasurable, isn't it? Like every time you wear something or put something on that has meaning, you get a little spark of joy from it.
- [38:07]
Carol Houlton
Yeah. There's a saying that really a woman's jewelry box is her life. Is every fashion mistake, every love affair, every. Everything that she's gone through or trip or travel or being a bridesmaid or all these things are in your jewelry.
- [38:22]
Anna Murphy
And that's not going back to what we were saying earlier about buying things for yourself, you know, because the narrative was always. Certainly when I grew up, it was wait for a man to buy you something. So firstly, you know, quite often that's going to be a long way. And then secondly, it's like, oh, I'm not sure.
- [38:37]
Carol Houlton
Thanks.
- [38:38]
Anna Murphy
So I just love this thing now, which is just the sort of empowerment and the validation and the kind of self surfacing that comes with you buying something fabulous for yourself. And that is, you know, and actually the dollar princesses, we're all channeling our inner dollar princess, aren't we? Albeit alas, with slightly smaller budgets when we're, you know, picking and wearing exactly what we want.
- [39:04]
Carol Houlton
Thanks.
- [39:05]
Audience Member
I'm not sure it's a question, but it's really what you said about meaning. And you also mentioned empowerment earlier on. And when you speak about the Oscars, I find it so sad that everyone kind of hides. And what I wish for is that someone is finding their fashion or gems or jewels to represent their personality and to really kind of be empowered with that and shine more from within.
- [39:31]
Anna Murphy
And I think in a way an underlay of what we've been talking about is it's not truly doing your thing visually is not necessarily about money. So this high, low thing is about yes, you know, maybe you buy something, you know, you really invest in something incredible, but you might wear it with some little bracelet that your kid gave you or, you know, it's that again, that's also part of the joy of where we're at now is that there's no judgment around that. And maybe one of the things that's goes a bit wrong with the Oscars is it. It is all a finite. It's coming from a financial place. You know, people are wearing things because partly, I mean, they're beautiful things, but partly because they're sort of paid for them. I mean, one of the things from a sort of the clothes perspective that makes me a bit sad is it's all the big brands, of course, and some gorgeous dresses. But I'd like to see some of the smaller brands and I get it. I know what's happening. But it's a shame, you know, and
- [40:34]
Carol Houlton
even you don't get a sense of personality and you don't get new people through. No, certainly no Elizabeth Taylor who's wearing what she loves. Yeah, there is. I did have on the podcast Jennifer Tilly, the actress in la. She is the kind of new Elizabeth Taylor. She's got the most amazing collection and buys it and she plays poker and when she's done well, she goes and bids at auction and she adds to her collection.
- [41:00]
Anna Murphy
And she is. I've seen her. So she is a adult. So Dolce and Gabbana have this unbelievably Italian take on couture that they call Alta Moda, which is, you know, couture with a lot of bells and whistles on. And they have a very sort of distinctive fine jewelry collection with kind of lemons hanging off diamonds. Sort of sounds naff, but is actually kind of fabulous, I think, really fabulous. And she goes to that. And she is. Yeah, she's the personification of a woman doing exactly what she damn well pleases. It's so. It's so.
- [41:34]
Carol Houlton
And takes huge sport. And she wears it the whole time, and I think that's half the time.
- [41:39]
Anna Murphy
And she looks like she's having the best time always.
- [41:41]
Carol Houlton
And she's gone on that Real Housewives of Beverly Hills or something as a friend of the housewives. Because I think part of the thing is I think she wants to wear her jewelry.
- [41:50]
Anna Murphy
Yeah.
- [41:51]
Carol Houlton
And she jolly well wears it.
- [41:53]
Anna Murphy
Yeah. Yeah.
- [41:56]
Victoria
Hi, I'm Victoria from Friar House and I deal in antique jewellery. But nice to meet you, Anna. I've really enjoyed this chat. It's, like, so great that Carol does these podcasts and you mentioned about vintage and antique jewellery and I thought that was so good to hear you. Because I feel over the last 10, 20 years, and I'm all for modern jewellers and designers and creative people, I love it, but I feel antique jewellery hasn't had the shout, and especially in the world of journalism. And I know a lot of that's about money, isn't it, with, you know, being paid advertising, Whereas maybe antique jewelry, it doesn't quite get the, you know, the audience that it should. And I feel through Carol now and Anna Wintour as well, she was wearing.
- [42:44]
Carol Houlton
She wears her.
- [42:45]
Anna Murphy
Yeah.
- [42:46]
Victoria
At the Oscars.
- [42:48]
Anna Murphy
Yeah, yeah.
- [42:49]
Victoria
And so I see that she's wearing them and I think, you know, it's so good that it's actually becoming, I think, through Instagram and other platforms, much more popular.
- [42:59]
Anna Murphy
What do you think? Yeah, no, I really think so. I. I wouldn't. Speaking personally, I would always want to have something antique, really, in my jewelry lineup. I don't think I ever just wear contemporary. I always wear something contemporary, but I will always wear something antique because I just think, I mean, it's such a hollow word in a way, it's not enough. But there's just a specialness to it and as we were saying earlier, kind of uniqueness to it when you find the right old Thing, whether it's chair or a bracelet, it feels like it's been waiting for you and the universe provided it.
- [43:40]
Carol Houlton
Yeah. It's just.
- [43:41]
Anna Murphy
Is just sort of so special. And I think, you know, Joy, it is. I think you were talking about talismans. You know, even if it's not a literal talisman, a wonderful piece of jewelry is a talisman. And the fact that it's been someone else's talisman before you, or a series of people's talisman, and that against all the odds, this little thing is still in the world, and then you get to be the custodian of it. For me, that's. That really is quite a magical thing. And I think you gain power from it. It's the title of your book really, isn't it, Kelly?
- [44:14]
Carol Houlton
Yes, the Fake Couture. Yeah.
- [44:16]
Anna Murphy
And I do sometimes think, you know, what, you know, absolutely no joke. And what would it say? Because these things, especially these precious little things that remarkably survive, I do think, where's it been? Who's worn it? What's it done? What has it seen?
- [44:33]
Carol Houlton
I think that about the Louvre museum heist, because I'm sure they'll come back at some point. They'll just come back. They've had that life, and they've had the life in the museum, and they'll come back in some other way and have another part of their life. Yeah, I mean, that's the extraordinary thing. Well, I hope they're buried somewhere intact. I know, but at some point, let's get.
- [44:53]
Anna Murphy
There's a thing about talking of buried, I think we. I don't think I really realized. As I was reading a book about it quite recently, I look at a lovely jewel. I've always looked at a lovely jewel and thought, gosh, you know, what a beautiful tourmaline that is, or whatever. But I had it. It sounds sort of stupid. And of course, I knew they were sort of found in rocks and sort of dug up, but you think of the magic of that, that these entities have come from the ground. I mean, again, it just sounds like a terrible suit. There's something kind of almost spiritual about it. They have come from darkness. The best of them are the epitome of light. And you get to wear what has to be one of the most stupendous creations of the natural world. I mean, they're insane, Jules.
- [45:37]
Carol Houlton
They are. And that is magic. You're right.
- [45:40]
Anna Murphy
It is magic.
- [45:40]
Carol Houlton
It is.
- [45:41]
Anna Murphy
And we get to kind of have that about us.
- [45:44]
Carol Houlton
Well, Anna, thank you so much. And I will thank Harvey Nichols for hosting us. And Anna, for your words of wisdom. Thank you for having me. Thank you. And thank you all for joining us.
- [46:03]
If jules could talk with carole walton is produced by natasha cowan. Music and editing by tim thornton. Graphics by scott bentley. Illustration by jordi labander.