← If Jewels Could Talk with Carol Woolton
If Jewels Could Talk with Carol Woolton
TOM MOSES OF THE GIA - FASHIONS, FACETS AND THE FUTURE OF DIAMONDS
00:51:46
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This episode is brought to you by Leibish Coloured diamond Specialists. Did you know that only one stone in 10,000 discovered is a colored diamond?
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If one looks at history, which is often a window into the future, every other synthetic gem material, they've all followed the same path. So think of synthetic Ruby, early 1900s, you now start to see mixed with beautiful art deco pieces that match similar color to fine Burma rubies. And it created a panic in a way. Well, how do we tell the difference? They're man made, what's going to happen? And then eventually they figure out how to identify them. Price falls a lot, but at the same time they become very popular. So there's millions and millions of carats of synthetic ruby or emerald being sold today.
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I'm Carole Houlton, the voice of jewellery. Welcome to if Jules Could Talk. I'm an author and broadcaster and the woman who initiated the role of jewellery editor at magazines like Tatler and Vogue. This is a podcast for everyone, for people who do like jewellery, for people who don't realise they like jewellery, and anyone intrigued by fascinating facts, new ideas and forgotten histories. So join me as I tell sparkly tales and meet all sorts of people delving into four centuries of jewellery culture and investigate what's happening now. I am delighted to be here today with Tom Moses, the executive vice president and Chief laboratory research Officer of the GIA Gemmological Institute of America, established in 1931 to provide reports on the examination of diamonds, colored stones and pearls. And they assess about 4 million gems annually. And so I'm delighted to welcome Tom. Tom, thank you very much for joining us from New York.
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Thank you, Carol. A pleasure to join you and I'm pleased to be here with you today.
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Well, thank you. Because you've got a lot that I think people and listeners really want to hear about. Everyone talks about the GIA and takes it for granted. People know what it's stands for and what it means, but I think actually mostly we don't. So firstly, Tom, will you tell me, explain the work of the GIA and why it's so important and valuable to the jewelry industry?
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B
Oh, sure, Carol. So GIA was founded in 1931 and really is an education organization founded by Robert Shipley, who was a retail jeweler. But he recognized that retail jewelers often didn't know as much as the consumers when the consumer was coming in and asking questions. So his vision was to educate retail jewelers so that they would be better equipped to explain and sell gemstones and jewelry. So that was his mission. He traveled around the United States attracting new retailers to the courses. And that was a humble beginning in the next big phase or big step. In the mid-1940s, my mentor and colleague who hired me, Richard Liddicote, created the. What Everybody knows, the four Cs, the carat wave, the color, clarity.
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You say everybody knows that. I think probably the first time it comes into someone's life is when they get engaged. So if they choose a diamond, they suddenly need to learn about it. And it is those four Cs that tell them about it, isn't it?
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B
Yes, that's correct. So they were established mid-1940s, and really, as a teaching tool, we purchased a pearl laboratory here in New York in 1949 and began testing pearls and colored gemstones. And interestingly enough, though, the local industry in New York, they looked at Gia and said, well, what do these. There are two of them there. At the time, Mr. Liddicote and Robert Crowningshield, were the two people in the lab at the time, and fortuitously turned out to be probably two of the most important gemologists and teachers in the history of gemstones in our industry. But eventually, the dealers within a few blocks would be debating trying to make a transaction between two people. And at that time, they were using terms like blue, white, and perfect. So they came to. And they used to call them, well, let's go see the professors, these two at gia, and get their opinion. And based on the GIA opinion at that point, using this new system that crowning shield and lydicote created, of course, beginning the top color was D and progressed down to Z to be light yellow. And the clarity system was based on flawless and a series of grades. So they would come to gia, my colleagues, then mentors, colleagues would write down that grade, and then the transaction was made. So that was 1953, and that was, as they say, that was the start of it. And then it, of course, grew, which it went from that to the 4 million stones that you mentioned in your introduction.
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And so cut, color, clarity, carat, weight are the sort of golden rules. So part of all of this is really to create a public trust in diamonds that there's a standard way that people can appreciate and know what they're buying.
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Agree, Carol. I think that was really creating, and I think you said the key word creating trust. So now there was a ability to go into a retail jewelry store anywhere in the world, because the system began to spread, and there was this standard system to compare the grades of diamonds and evaluate the value. So an interesting story at the time it turned out to be a very important New York diamond dealer. And of course, Harry Winston was then, and probably some would still say it, he was known as the king of diamonds. So he, of course, sold so many famous diamonds that we have all read about. And he was a very large supplier of polisher manufacturer to the rest of the industry. And he would come in from time to time. I didn't know him. My colleagues did. And he didn't use our GI reports. He said, well, it's a Winston diamond they trust, kind of what I'm saying. But another who turned out to be a very important dealer in New York used GIA system to ultimately compete with Winston. And ironically, by the 1960s, Winston started to submit their diamonds also to GIA. So it wasn't just his reputation anymore that he could go on it. He was also relying on GIA grading reports. So it also created this level playing field in the industry. We talked about consumers trust for consumers, but it also, in a way democratized. So it didn't matter if you were a big brand or an independent individual retailer. You now had this standardized system to count on. And yeah, it created a level playing field essentially for the entire industry.
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And you talked about some of the diamonds that Winston had come through his hands. Tell me, in your career, what are some of the most magnificent diamonds that you remember and that were sort of highlights for you?
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I would answer it in a few ways. I have been extremely fortunate. You know, I started my career here in 1977 when I was hired by Ms. Slidekote.
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And what were you doing then, if I can ask quickly, were you in the trade at the time?
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Yes, I was. I grew up in a retail business. My father owned retail jewelry stores in the United States. In college I also took a few geology courses and mineralogy. And it furthered my kind of interest in curiosity and gemstones. And then I attended the GIA and did the kind of the six month study of intensive study of gemstones and became a gemologist.
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Okay, so those special diamonds.
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Yes, so let's get to those. So let me start with something like the incomparable. It was the largest flawless diamond. I think it was 890 carats in the rough from DRC in Africa. And it was this large shield diamond. But just handling a polished diamond that large, that was in the 80s, I think that I first saw that.
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So what was it polished down to?
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From 890. The, the primary stone, there were about 20 stones from it. The largest was 407 carats. And that was that for a long Time and still actually is the largest flawless or internally flawless diamond that we created. I wasn't that my favorite by any means?
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Just extraordinary to see that. Yes. And where is it now? Where is it now, Tom?
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Well, I think it's changed hands a few times and I've seen it come back on the market I believe in 1988 it went to a sale in Christie's, I hear, you know, just in the trade it's for sale again. It went from this person to that person. So I don't know. I don't know where it is. And then I think of things like say The Dresden Green, 40 carats or so in Indian stone in I think early 1800s. But the puzzling thing to me about that is green diamonds form in a very or the green color is attributed to exposure to radiation in the earth and typically the radiation exposed to is very shallow. So I was always puzzled by this diamond that it could retain the green color in the rough. So he had it some years ago. I also tested that and examined that. So that was an interesting. To this day I'm fascinated by that another diamond that. I mean there's so many. So just stop me when you get tired of hearing me talk about diamonds.
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Let's have one more. Let's have one more.
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How about two? I'll say the one was a. I would say it's the most pure diamond I think I ever saw. It was a 218 carat flawless cushion, the largest cushion shape to be flawless. 218 carats and usually flawless by the Federal Trade Commission and by gia. And our system is defined by no internal external inclusions or surface blemishes at 10 times magnification. But this diamond had just nothing. Even if you examined it under 30 power, 40 power, 50 power and usually you can find some growth lines or something. It had nothing. So it was kind of the purest one. And the last one I'll talk about is kind of a recent story it came about was and we spoke about Harry Winston. So his son Ronald came to the lab.
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I think he's been on our podcast. Actually Ronald came on when he had written his memoir.
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Oh he did?
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Yes.
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So Ronald, the first time I met him, 1987 I think it was he came to the lab and brought this red diamond himself. Normas, of course the courier would come. We actually brought him into the lab which was highly unusual. And I remembered that stone so much. 230, 233 I think it was carats cushion older stone. I suspect Brazil or India, I don't think it was Africa by the cutting style. But the interesting thing, of course, it. He recently, I think, decided to either donate it or something to Smithsonian. Yes, the interesting thing about. Came in, and I'm not grading on a daily basis, but one of my colleagues brought this stone to me and it was like, immediately, nearly, whatever, 40 years later, I knew exactly what it was, and it all came back to me, really.
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But that's interesting, that point, because if you've graded something in the past, are they like, as you compare them to children and you recognize them, if you see them again, they come across your past, you'll say, oh, yeah, yeah, I remember you. I saw you in whenever. So you recognize them?
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Yeah, I do, Carol. I mean, it's the craziest thing, and sometimes I actually remember where, like, the inclusions were or something like the Hope Diamond. Handling that, it just seared in my mind. And I think it's part of my interest and curiosity that fueled it. But, yeah, I mean, sometimes it's. I've seen things well this 30, 40 years ago that it just comes back to me, like, immediately I want to look and see. Oh, is that. Isn't it where I solve this inclusion or the feather or something? And right away I want to look to see. And. Yeah, it's still there. Of course it's there.
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It is.
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As you can see, it's still. When you think of these things, they're a billion to 3 billion years old, and the Earth is 4 and a half billion or so years old, and it's the oldest thing that you'll ever touch kind of thing. And many of them have, like, the Hope or some of these stones I've talked about, I think about who's handling them, what they've traveled or sometimes over centuries. You know, the Hope Diamond, I think it was that villain, Walsh Maclean, you know, she used to. When her nieces or nephews would come, she would hide it in the garden and they would, you know, you know, like a hunt, Easter egg hunt or something kind of thing. And so some of the stories behind these things are amazing.
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And the romantic stories. There's so many romantic stories. Exactly. Or stories of bravery or plunder, ex all the good and the bad. It's just those tapestry of human life, isn't it?
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It is. It is. And I think, obviously I first became interested science, the technical part, but I've also, over time, I'm fascinated by the legacy of what's been behind them or the origin.
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So having done this extraordinary 40 years with this sort of forensic view of diamonds, you are very well placed to see trends coming not just in fashion. But I'm interested to hear how you've noticed fashion cuts changing over the years, but also the sort of generational shift in how people are buying and wearing diamonds and how they incorporate them into their lives. Let's start with the easy one. Let's start with the fashion. Have you noticed that what cuts in and out at the moment, I clearly
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have seen this evolution of. And I guess just like other areas of fashion where things become or cutting styles become popular. Certainly the round brilliant has been most popular. It's about 70% of our intake. But recently the desire for fancy shaped diamonds has definitely grown and particularly longer like ovals or cushions or also the interesting thing I think is some of the older cutting styles are being now replicated by modern polishers around the world. So certainly we're seeing a resurgence of that. And it's interesting when someone well known purchases a particular shape or style and of course we see right away how they can influence the desire globally almost for stone, for a certain cutting style. And as I said lately I think it's these longer cushions or ovals are particularly popular.
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What like Taylor Swift had on her engagement?
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Like Taylor Swift. It's interesting. I saw that stone, of course I didn't know until a day or two later it was definitely this kind of a long cushion and the fastening was kind of an older style. I'm not sure if it was a newer stone that certainly had been polished recently because it was a flawless or internally flawless diamond. I don't know if that was something that had been an older diamond that had been restored or if it was a newer cutting style but a charming, a very charming diamond.
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So now you expect to have a rash of people looking for these cushion cuts.
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We clearly have seen that. Yes. Yes.
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That's so amazing. So what is influencing then the real trend that I've noticed for coloured diamonds? I mean, is that actually a trend? Are you seeing more coloured diamonds that you assess them white and is it more that their rarity is being so appreciated so the value is skyrocketing.
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So I would answer that two ways, Carol. It represents a small percentage of our overall intake which points to reinforces the rarity part of it. So I don't remember it something less than 10% I think today, again, which supports the rarity aspect of it. So of course the two that are just we see so much in public sales are pink and blue, important stones that just sell for extraordinary amounts. 20, 30, 40, $50 million. And they deserve it. And I say that I don't know anything about valuing, but I think about it. Think of them as Picassos or something. They're more Picassos than there are, you know, a 10 carat vivid blue diamond or a vivid pink diamond. And, you know, there's no reproducing it. So it's such a limited and special thing. I think the more interesting things that we're starting to see, and I want to be careful, I say that because I think they're all kind of interesting and special. So something that is a warm pink brown that has kind of a, you know, bit of a fleshy color or things like a really super strongly colored brown orange. So it's a deep rich. So those kind of stones, I think that's Carol, where there is.
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That's the trend. Yeah, yeah. Okay. But also they're more available and affordable, aren't they?
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Exactly, exactly. So people are discovering those and I think very attractive to them. And they're still, you know, they're available and at a price that, you know, most people can afford or many people can afford. So I think that's an exciting part that's happening in the industry. And of course then it lends great opportunities for designers.
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That's right. So talking about the sort of rarity and these extraordinary magical colors that are thrown up by the earth, the natural world, we have to talk about lab grown. There's been a great kind of confusion, I think, I think partly in the industry and for consumers about, for a start, what we call them. I mean, people call them man made, lab grown. Some people even call them synthetic. How would you describe them? What would you say is the difference? If you were asked to summarize lab grown and mind, what would you say?
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So I would simply summarize it as they are grown in a factory or laboratory and have essentially the same properties as their natural counterpart. So that's a cold clinical comment that I would make, but I want to go back to your comment about nomenclature. So in the United States, the Federal Trade Commission approves four terms. So it's synthetic, laboratory grown, man made, and maker created. So I could say it's a tom created diamond. So those are the four terms that are acceptable. What's the history of those terms? Well, interestingly enough, a French chemist, for me in like early late 1890s or early 1890s, was the first to synthesize ruby and wrote a book. I think I still have it. It's on My desk somewhere. And he was the first to use coined the term for synthetic gemstones. So in the technical literature, scientific literature, it's a synthetic ruby or synthetic emerald or synthetic diamond. And in the 1940s, 50s, a very famous synthetic grower, Carol Chatham, petitioned the FTC and others in the 1960s to expand the terms. And that's why some of these other terms came into play then like laboratory grown, General Electric, who were, I'm not saying the first, but certainly the major in late 1954 they grew produced in actually in New York, in upstate New York and their facility there using high pressure, high temperature, they're often credited with the first synthetic diamond. All of their literature which we have from that release, they called them man made diamonds. So the two that if we looked at the evolution of the nomenclature, it was synthetic, man made and then laboratory grown and maker created were the two things that were really came about were more lobbied by those who were in the synthesis business. And they believed that they were and perhaps true more user friendly, consumer friendly terms. So the gia, we use all of the terms or I certainly do when I'm writing I would use all of those terms depending really on the audience. If it's a technical audience, it would just be synthetic. If I'm writing something for the trade or industry, I use usually a combination of all those terms. So I don't know if that answered your question, but that is the background on nomenclature.
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But that's why I think a lot of the confusion has come in for the consumer because the word synthetic is very different from this. Chemically identical, exact. Even though you earlier said they have essentially the same characteristics. I think so much of what's gone on in the industry is the idea that they are identical. But actually the word synthetic is very different to man made. I think.
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Yes, I think that was the point you're making. I think was the same thing that the those who produce man made or synthetic or laboratory grown gem materials thought to a consumer it didn't connotate the same thing. So thus those more friendly perhaps more
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so it's a marketing term, essentially.
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Yeah, yes, yes. It was really those two terms, the latter two terms, laboratory grown and maker created. So Tom created those were terms that I think it was, I'm trying to remember 1960s, 70s that they really came into use.
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So when did the GIA decide to grade lab grown diamonds?
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Yeah, that's a good question, Carol. It was about between 15 and 20 years ago.
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And why was that?
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Well, you know, in the United States were a non Profit. And as that category we expected, the expectation is we service any customer with anything. But we still struggled with it. And I was deeply involved in that. And actually at that time thought, you know what, for a couple reasons, the availability was so small, so limited, I thought it would be deceptive to use all of these granular terms we have for natural diamonds because there are so few of them and they're essentially this part that makes them a bit different. They don't necessarily grow in the continuum that natural diamonds occur. They don't occur that way. So we started out calling them just using broad categories like vvs or vs or something. And the color grading system was either colorless, which that would be DE or D def, et cetera. So that's how we started. So that began. And we did that for, I don't know, a decade or so.
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Even though they had the word synthetic associated, you still thought they deserved to be categorized as a diamond?
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Yes, yes, we did, because again, essentially. So they had the same hardness, essentially the same chemistry, but they're clearly not identical or we would not be able to separate them. And we and others with simple devices, in a matter of a couple of seconds can figure out that this is a potentially a synthetic diamond.
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So, so what gives the game away when you're looking.
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So there are two differences. And by the way, we grow synthetic diamond in our facility here in the U.S. so we have a pretty good understanding. There's two differences. Well, first of all, there's two ways to produce synthetic diamonds. One is through high pressure, high temperatures. So think about very simply, you take a carbon source and you in a very high temperature press, so a tremendous amount of high temperature and pressure. Think of the pressure. And I'm going to get this wrong, but I have to look it up. It'd probably be the equivalent of 100 or 200 elephants standing on something. I mean, that's the kind of squeezing you need in this press. So that's one way. And then the other is chemical vapor deposition, cvd. So essentially it's a carbon source in a vacuum. So not using that kind of pressure, but it's in a vacuum and in a microwave chamber, which is using a gas that's a carbon source. And then there's a seed, a seed of natural or synthetic diamond beneath it, and this carbon is transformed into diamond. And think of it as almost layers of snow growing on top of the seed plate. Those are the two methods. So how do you separate them? What we just talked about is, look, you have to grow those quickly I mean you can grow one carat size in say a week, five days, six
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days, not the billion. It's a bit of a difference to a billion years old, isn't it?
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Yeah. So Carol, you're getting right to the point. So when you grow at that rate in nature, this slow growth rate, there's a preferential growth direction and when you grow fast, which we're doing now in a day of six days or something, the growth direction and the growth structure is different than what occurs in nature. So that's one way to distinguish them. So we can examine diamonds and excite the diamond with certain wavelengths of laser or ultraviolet or different parts of the electromagnetic spectrum and we can see those growth differences. So you just can't get away from that. I mean that's one thing. And then the other thing is there are some atomic level defects and sums like chemical differences that we also exploit. So those are the two main things that we and others use to separate natural from man made diamonds.
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So when we go back to the idea of trends, you obviously now see so many lab grown. What's the percentage of lab grown to mine diamonds now that you.
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So I'll again answer two ways. So at gia, we grade very few. We used to grade a bit more and we changed our system last year to we described them in a, in a unique way.
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Yes. You changed your classification.
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Yes. The nomenclature we used to describe them as this was evolving. So we began, we started to see, which seems like it should be mutually exclusive, that the man made diamonds were precipitously falling in price. So they're getting cheaper to produce as they perfected the process and the quality was getting better. So those two things usually wouldn't think would happen. They seem like almost imposing. So 90% of what we were seeing was like DEF and VS plus. So on the very top part of the grading system. So I started to look at, and I thought about it many years before, but I revisited terms, quality terminology used for manufactured products. I went through those glossary of terms and we decided to move to that kind of nomenclature which we thought was more appropriate for the product and for the consumer. So we essentially have two it's premium and standard. So that kind of very top end which is now turning into a high majority would be premium quality. And then something that was less than say VS1 and a slightly lower color would be kind of standard is the terminology. So in doing that we thought it was the right thing to do always with the consumer in mind from an intake or business side, it really has not caught on in a way that we thought it might. I think it eventually will because there really isn't rarity involved here. And of course natural diamond, the definition of a gemstone is, you know, beauty, durability and rarity. And of course there the rarity part doesn't exist in man made diamonds. So I've been over the last 20 years, visited factories around the world in China. The largest factory There produces about 2,000 tons of industrial man made diamond a year. And let me kind of qualify for most of it is for grit and grinding. And yeah, when you go and see the highway and they're cutting a big slice in the highway, those wheels are embedded with small diamonds. So most of it is there. But my point is you could easily convert those same presses to grow gem quality. We estimate there's about 10,000 of those presses in China. We estimate that probably 10% are used for synthetic or man made diamond. I was told recently by those in that business in that producing in 2025 about 40 million carats were produced in China and 20 million in.
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A
But there's obviously the demand as well as the capabilities because it is obviously they're coming in to you because people are wanting them and buying them. And do you think that, I mean we keep all reading that Gen Z thinks they're an ethical choice and that they're choosing these Darmans because they don't like the idea of mining and they think they're buying what is essentially a diamond because it will come to the gia. So do you think all of that in some ways has slightly misled a younger audience?
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B
I think you're right, I think it has. But I would say to that Carol, if one looks at history, which is often a window into the future, every other synthetic gem material, they've all followed the same path. So think of synthetic ruby. Really started to see it commercially early 1900s. You now start to see it mixed with beautiful art deco pieces that match similar color to fine Burma rubies. And it created a panic in a way. Well how do we tell the difference? Or man made what's going to happen? And then eventually they figured out how to identify them and two things happened. And technology. Same thing as we're seeing here. Price falls a lot but at the same time they become very popular. So there's millions and millions of carats of synthetic ruby or emerald being sold today. So successful. But the price separation, they're like falling on two paths now. I suspect history will repeat itself. It's starting to, I think so they'll
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be so valueless that people just won't aspire to own them.
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B
Yeah, but I think they'll be popular and why do I say that? So think of different uses. I was talking with my colleague earlier about it is think of the novel cutting style. So you can do with. Because it's not rare. You can use lasers. And imagine Carol, you could have, you could have a neck chain with your name spelled out, cut out a laser of, you know, C A R O L of, of, of laboratory grown diamonds. So that's very cool.
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But it's essentially costume jewelry.
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But think of things like you see synthetic ruby or things like that. And yeah, I mean I think it becomes but a huge business.
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They're beautiful, but it's a, it becomes a totally different material. I think it, in a way so,
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B
so that's where I'm going, Carol. And I think if I look recently at Walmart, you can buy one carat in a ring for $109. And look, I'm not an expert in this part, but I'm going to venture into a space that I'm not because I do have a wife and daughter. I can't imagine on some special occasion, here's a 1 carat or 2 carat laboratory grown diamond that sells for whatever 100, 200, $300 when going out to dinner is. I'd be spending more perhaps at a nice restaurant. You know this, you know so much historically, if one looks at gems for adornment and for emotional celebrating gifts, it's, there's this kind of emotional connection. So, and this is more. And now I'm talking personal, not as an expert in what Chen Zing is doing. I don't, I, I don't know enough about that. Although I would say to you, from what I hear in the United States, what I read would shock me, 50% of bridal is laboratory grown diamonds. I think that trend is changing and I hear that, you know, just came from industry events here last week. Those who were selling much are moving, you know, coming back towards natural diamond. I think because they're concerned about this from a practical side. You know, if my bridal business, I'm now selling, you know, one or two carat diamonds for whatever, it's going to be a few hundred or thousand versus a natural diamond for 5,000 or 10,000. It has a great impact on their, you know, kind of business and their success. So I think it will happen. I also think as people understand more about them, they're not necessarily this environmentally friendly product that, you know, they have been presented to be. Although we see progress. There's. In India, I see a number of the factories I visit are using a lot more solar for producing them. So. But at the same time, if you look at this big picture, I don't recall right now the exact number of people employed in Africa and the social, economic and social benefits that are occurring. So we opened, as you know, we have laboratories around the world. But I'll use it as an example. I went to Botswana 18 years ago or something with our chair of our board and said, look, I think we should open lab here. And fortunately, he listened. So today I look at it, we have 120 people there who are receiving benefits, insurance, job. There is not one expat there. They're running this whole business for us. It's this beauty of beneficiation. So the country is benefiting from that raw material.
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Their product. Their product. And all those children in Botswana being educated through diamonds.
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B
Absolutely. So I kind of look at different things. In fact, you asked me about my. I guess because I'm old now, I reflect on my background and I think, you know, we talk about diamonds. This Botswana story makes me feel good. I had some part in helping, you know, kind of set this up. And I also, at the time, I realized that I don't know what the numbers are today, but I think it was 38% of adult males who are HIV positive. And a number of the people we hired early on, the women we hired were widowed, and now they have insurance. And this is. In some ways, it's diamond, really. We made a decision to go there, but it's diamond, really. That's natural. Diamond is really.
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It's been a force for positive. In that lifted people out of poverty, helped.
- [38:47]
B
Exactly, exactly. So things like that make me feel good about our industry and perhaps a little bit that Jay's done to be part of this. So, again, I think the two products will coexist just like synthetic ruby. And you're right, the confusion. I think some of it could have been avoided. I think. I hate to say it, but I think some retailers selling it. No, no. It's the same thing, and you just get it for less. I think the narrative was improperly used in some cases. I've seen it. I go to jewelry stores. I grew up in that business, so I've seen it happen. And I think in the long run, it will be successful, continue to be successful, but I think we will see kind of separation and less perhaps confusion.
- [39:33]
A
Do you see a time when you won't be classifying them.
- [39:36]
B
I do.
- [39:37]
A
As dumb. You'll see that. And how long into the future will that happen?
- [39:41]
B
Soon. Next five years.
- [39:42]
A
Fantastic. That's good news.
- [39:43]
B
Yeah. I think it's not that they'll just be sold as CZ Cubic Zirconia, 1975 Russian product, $50 a carat. It's a dollar or two today we're seeing the same thing. I think, you know, we grow diamond. I know much it costs. I have some idea what it costs to polish it in India. I think we'll see. It's not going to be a dollar or two or $5 or $10. But I'm envisioning. Well, I already told you, you can go to Walmart and buy one carat for $109.
- [40:15]
A
They're going to be some disappointed women out there who land up with this engagement ring that's they don't need to pass on. It's got absolutely nothing to it.
- [40:25]
B
You know, visually look, they look the same. They're beautiful and so it's not like. And is that a question that someone asks now? But I suspect there will be a lot of surprises over time and when somebody later finds out, even if it was disclosed and they paid 5 or 10,000 for 2 or 3 carat diamond, laboratory grown diamond and go back for whatever reason something and it's. It will have I think very, very little value.
- [41:01]
A
The interesting thing, we were talking earlier about how you notice celebrities lead these trends and diamonds and cuts and it's so obvious to you that you see suddenly this demand and cutters start cutting and everybody wants to buy that. But it's very interesting. We're talking after the academy awards ceremony everything on the red carpet was diamonds and they were mined diamonds and yet that has not trickled down to Gen Z. They'll sit and watch the Oscars but they are not following that trend that all those stars and celebrities and actresses are confident enough in what they're wearing because they are billboards for what they're wearing and they choose mine stones.
- [41:45]
B
Interesting. I don't know, is it Carol, is it maturity when they Gen Z had become, you know, 10 years older they start to see this or change. But I've had some interaction with Pharrell and I've had some discussion with Kim Kardashian at times and seen them what they're wearing and you know, kind of thing and with Pharrell who you know, had definitely interest in significant diamonds. So you are right. I think most of them have. I mean See it as they just appreciate the natural nature and see the inherent value in times, especially the kind of things that they're able to acquire and. Yeah. So I don't know if it's just a matter of time where Gen Z will evolve into being consumers as they become more mature and are able to spend more, invest more and quote kind of the real thing. I don't know.
- [42:54]
A
Well, it's a good time for them to buy because obviously the lab growing competition has brought down the mind stones as well. So it's a good time for them to invest.
- [43:03]
B
It really is. I talk about that all the time and I think it's when I think about knowing a little bit about the history of pricing and where things are today versus even a decade ago because
- [43:16]
A
hearing you talk earlier about the sort of romance and the stones and what they meant and the other lives they've had and that impressing the billion year age and looking for those signs of their earth activity and that we will go to museums to look at these stones and you look at the outcry when the French crown jewels were recently stolen.
- [43:40]
B
Yes.
- [43:40]
A
That the romance that these jewels conjure up in people's minds. You can't imagine going to a museum and looking at a lab grown stone in the future, can you?
- [43:49]
B
No. Now you may see them in a laser exhibit because the rubies are used for lasers a good bit. But I think in an adornment jewelry exhibit I think that's highly unlikely that will see that and similar to you may see novel cuts, things like I said to you, that diamonds that have been lasered into whatever the outline of a country or I mean you may see that, but it's more of a technology thing, not.
- [44:20]
A
Not a design or beauty or magic. Not magic. So we're safe, you're saying we're safe with the forever diamond is forever. We're safe with that because we're going to go back to the real thing, the mind stones. And that is something that you can keep and is something to be valued.
- [44:43]
B
Yeah, I believe we're seeing that trend now, Carol. I think people are and again having been around for a little while, I've seen this, the introduction, I use cubic zirconia, I use this, you know, other what's the path with other synthetic gem materials And I believe laboratory grown diamond will follow that same path. I think it's starting to and I don't mean it in any kind of critical way. I just think that's what's going to happen and I imagine that we'll see it in, you know, some buckles on high end shoes or buckles on belts or in looking look fantastic or hair ornaments or I think it's exciting to
- [45:28]
A
me sort of for accessories.
- [45:30]
B
Yeah, if I were in that business, that's the kind of thing I thought so you're creating actually new opportunities with this technology. So I think we'll see more and more of that. And that's an exciting opportunity for laboratory grown diamonds.
- [45:48]
A
And then talking about the future and this sort of origin of your diamond, the verification. When we think about the four C's I was wondering do you see that blockchain in the future is as important as the four Cs if we look
- [46:02]
B
at the storytelling of other luxury products. So if it's Chanel something or the story of who made it, what went into it, how or you know, kind of a great watch, you know, the some of the gears or gold or something, I wanting to understand and know more about things and I think the generations, younger generations today are much more interested in. And again I take leads clearly I'm not an expert this kind of thing but when I go to the grocery store there's origin of almost everything. The fruit, things that I didn't remember, I didn't recall when I was younger. So clearly I think there is this demand. And when we're talking about such an important kind of luxury item, I envision the day going back to my. I'm going to use my example. My wife and daughter love diamonds, but I think what they'd really like is for me to say be able to tell a story. Here's what the rough looked like. And it was found at Xiao Nang mine in Botswana last year and it was cut and polished in Botswana by. And one day it might say where and who did it and it's a signature on it. And if I were the giver of that, I think my wife would look at it as beautiful. But I think she'd be very interested in me saying oh, and by the way, and so wearing it because you like it, but wearing it also because you feel good because you know someone benefited from this and then in the long run, 20 or 30 or 40 years later being able to pass it along and it still has in some cases substantial value or at least you wore something that was billion years old, you had this great emotional attachment to it and you were able to pass it down. I use this as a simple example, but I think if we go back to some earlier discussion, we're talking about these Notable diamonds. It's the same thing just happening on a smaller scale or a less historical scale. It's a personal. Yes. Yeah, yeah. So, yes, I think this is going to be important. You know, we have been working closely with De Meers on Tracer, which is a traceability program and one that we're likely going to invest in and be part of it and help tell that story because we think that's critical. I listen to Lena Noor, the CEO of Chanel, and she tells a story about, you know, we hire somebody to make their bags and for two or three years they're not able to do. They're just practicing really on stitching and that kind of thing. And it just makes me, you know, kind of appreciate that more and I think the same thing will carry over.
- [48:53]
A
So if you were buying something now, what would you want? Would you want a one carat cushion white? Would you want a small pink? Would you want marquise blue? What would you want?
- [49:08]
B
Colored diamond. And you say what kind? I would say some of the ones that I know are really rare, that most people don't know and that are really inexpensive. I mean, relatively, that you can buy one carat for, you know, under $10,000 or something. Those are the kind of things that really I find so interesting.
- [49:30]
A
What are like off colours? I mean, different colours?
- [49:33]
B
Well, no, you know, I think of this, I told you this, I mentioned earlier, like an orange brown, a deep, strong that most people you look at and say, yeah, yeah, yeah, it looks like an orange diamond, but it's one that's deeper, darker. So those kind of stones are unusual and they don't occur in large sizes. So knowing what I do or knowing about diamonds and which ones we rarely see and ones I particularly like, I think the interest will grow tremendously for color diamonds. So if I look at another example, I'll use if you look at a really, really strongly colored yellow diamond, a top quality one today, 10 carat or something, or 15 karat. Super, super. The very best. It might be a couple hundred thousand dollars a Garrett, but if you consider a top Bluestone, it's 2 million or $3 million. So I think they're understanding where rarity exists, I think. And more and more people will start to understand that with colored diamonds. Ones that I mentioned to you, an orange, brown or brown orange, that's one or two carats, which is very large for that color.
- [50:53]
A
Fantastic. Well, Tom, thank you very much for reassuring us all about diamonds. All the listeners are going to be so relieved to know that the industry has got this fantastic future ahead, which is even more exciting.
- [51:08]
B
Well, thank you for having me, Carol. Great seeing you again and wishing you continued success.
- [51:19]
A
If Jules Could Talk with Carole Walton is produced by Natasha Cowan. Music and editing by Tim Thornton. Graphics by Scott Bentley. Illustration by Jordi labander.
- [51:38]
B
Sat.