Book Talk w/ PAIGE HARBISON

Summary

Podcast Summary:

I'll Read What She's Reading
Episode: Book Talk with Paige Harbison
Date: July 22, 2026
Host(s): Reggie, Mikayla, Kennedy
Guest: Author Paige Harbison

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Episode Overview

In this lively, warm, and wide-ranging conversation, hosts Reggie, Mikayla, and Kennedy are joined by celebrated author Paige Harbison. The episode delves into Paige’s unique writing journey, her multifaceted career (from Starbucks barista to bestselling author and ghostwriter), her distinctively atmospheric and genre-blending novels, and her perspectives on humor, character creation, and the realities of navigating the publishing world. The group also explores Paige’s latest book, the highly anticipated Destination Funeral, touching on its themes, structure, and the challenges of writing “difficult” characters.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Icebreaker: "This or That" with Paige (00:37 – 11:54)

• Paige shares her preferences in a series of lighthearted rapid-fire questions, offering insights into her personal and creative tastes.
  • Coffee or Matcha: "Matcha. I worked at Starbucks from 13 through college. Espresso burnt out my nervous system. I love a vanilla matcha!" (01:46–02:12)
  • TikTok or Instagram: "Instagram. TikTok is a black hole – I'm more of a post-and-ghost there. Instagram just likes me better." (02:54–03:07)
  • Ebooks or Physical Books: Strong preference for physical, but values waterproof Kindles for pool reading. (03:10–04:10)
  • Audiobooks or Podcasts: Varies with her mood. True crime podcasts and comedy are favorites. She's always multitasking: "Yesterday I walked seven miles around my house cleaning and listened to like eight podcast episodes." (05:00)
  • Friends or The Office: "Friends is better for rewatching. I don’t want to spend time in one place, and Friends is just more fun." (09:13)
  • Sabrina Carpenter or Olivia Rodrigo: "Sabrina Carpenter. I can't stand Olivia... My sad-girl music is Lana Del Rey." (09:29–09:57)
  • Book First or Movie First: Prefers to read the book but sometimes gets swept up in the hype of adaptations—shares story of Project Hail Mary and her emotional reaction seeing it on IMAX. (10:39–11:54)

2. The Author’s Journey & Finding Her Voice (12:48 – 17:20)

• Early Start: Paige was published at 19 with her debut YA novel Here Lies Bridget, though she "wasn’t even really reading YA at the time."
• Family Influence: Her mother, Beth Harbison (author of Shoe Addicts Anonymous), gave Paige access to the world of publishing but success was never guaranteed: "It's about having as many conversations as you can. You might be a conversation away from someone being interested in you." (14:32)
• Navigating Creativity: Ghostwriting and bartending kept her flexible. Ghostwriting freed her from being "too precious" about her writing and focused her on storytelling.

3. Behind the Scenes: Ghostwriting Realities (17:20 – 24:00)

• Clients: Most details are NDA, but has ghostwritten for "three Bravo-lebrities—all Housewives" and Melanie Hamrick (ballerina and partner of Mick Jagger).
• Process & Pitfalls: Writing nonfiction for reality stars is fraught: "People have a really hard time seeing themselves. They have a hard time recognizing their voice... Rich people just want everything to sound grand and quotable but that's not who they are." (19:18)
• Fiction vs Non-Fiction Ghostwriting: Prefers fiction: "Fiction is much easier because they're not looking at the mirror you're holding up." (19:19)

4. Embracing Genre-Mixing and Writing Process (24:00 – 28:13)

• On "The Other Side of Now": Seamlessly blends comedy, heart, magical realism, atmosphere, and pop culture—"a mashup of everything I love about being a reader." (24:41)
• Creative Influences: Pulls from a wide range of genres and experiences, including her time as a bartender. "We're magpies: we just pick up these little ingredients... and combine them." (25:02)
• Atmosphere as 'Buy-In': "Every book I write is gonna have a big house, unique setting, food, drink—that's the buy-in." (25:44)

5. Humor, Emotion & Authenticity (29:14 – 34:51)

• On Seamlessness: "My books are who I am... there's a lot of tone I hope is not lost. People who like it are always people I'd be friends with in real life." (29:14)
• Dark Humor and Family Influence: Fondness for "gallows humor"—"I've never laughed harder than at a funeral... Big emotions are big emotions; the funniest thing and the worst thing are the same." (31:33)
• Striving for Balance: Compares writing to mixing cocktails: "You need the balance—and then you can add the bitters, the garnish, the expression." (33:26)

6. The Challenge of Polarizing Main Characters (34:51 – 40:21)

• Destination Funeral Protagonist: A self-admitted "angry eldest daughter"—not always instantly likable. "Right now, we're in an era of over-moralizing... Let her be flawed." (34:51)
• Character Complexity: Prefers flawed, growth-oriented characters: "Books where you see real development are much more interesting than flat Hallmark heroines." (37:38)
• References: Cites Gone Girl, Yesteryear, and Emma Cline's The Guest as examples of polarizing female leads.

7. Paige’s Audiobook Narration Approach (40:43 – 52:50)

• Narrating Her Own Work: Paige narrated both The Other Side of Now and Destination Funeral. She brings acting/comedy background to performance.
  • "Audiobook narrators are do or die for me... I can't stand when they're bone dry. Who’s gonna get the comedy better than me?" (45:00)
  • Recommends all authors read their work aloud: "You're going to realize if dialogue is clunky, notice if you repeat words, feel if a passage is boring." (46:47)
  • Spontaneity in writing: Writes fast, sometimes "in 16-hour bursts," then edits later. (51:53)

8. Character "Fancasting" & Adaptation Dreams (53:02 – 61:42)

• Visualizing Characters: Often models characters on actors or public figures. Examples:
  • Kira (Other Side of Now): "Just is Aisling Bea."
  • Killian: "Paul Mescal or Jack O’Connell."
  • Grayson Gamble: "In my head, looks like Prince Charming."
• Favorite to Play Herself: Would love to play Kira, or the angry eldest daughter from Destination Funeral if adapted. (59:59)
• On Adaptations: A film agent is attached, but nothing in stone. Thinks Destination Funeral would make a great ensemble show à la The Big Chill, and The Other Side of Now a great movie.

9. Structure, Magical Realism, and Refuting the 'Groundhog Day' Label (61:42 – 75:18)

• Drafting Process for Destination Funeral: Underwent major rewrites: "Nothing has undergone more change than Destination Funeral." (57:33)
• On Magical Time Loops: Did not want a classic Groundhog Day story. "I hate the trope... I wanted them stuck in time so the weekend wouldn't release them until they released what they were holding onto." (70:45–71:00)
• Themes: About getting in your own way, estrangement, the impact of technology and social media, and the struggles of success-oriented living.
• Memorable line: "Since 2016, I'll believe anything." (73:39)

10. Pop Culture, Personal Voice, and Self-Acceptance in Writing (61:42 – 66:28)

• Embracing Voice: "You can't fight your own voice. Who I am is going to be in there—I'm going to make an inappropriate joke at a funeral; I'm going to talk about makeup; I'm going to talk about Vanderpump Rules till I'm dead." (65:19)
• Pop Culture References: Defends their role in making characters authentic. "It matters if you're wearing a Montcler jacket or a Columbia jacket. It says something about you." (63:23)

11. What Paige is Reading & Recommendations (75:53 – 79:47)

• Reads widely: Thrillers, memoirs by women, recent hyped books (e.g., Strangers by Bell Burden, Yesteryear, The Storm by Rachel Hawkins, Our Perfect Storm by Carley Fortune, Gabrielle Korn’s Long Island Girls)
• Memoir phase: Makes friends with authors whose memoirs she loves and has hosted them on her podcast. (78:07)
• On Writing Process: Always reads before a new project: "Reading is gas in the tank."

12. Upcoming Projects & Unpublished Gems (79:08 – 80:42)

• Unpublished Rom-Com: Titled Mixed Signals from the Universe, about a couple reuniting in Positano. "The yearning in that's going to be top tier. It's based on a real story." (79:47)
• Potential for More Genres: Open to writing anything—even genres she doesn’t often read: "Maybe I should write a romanticism." (78:07)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Parasocial Friendship:
"No, I am one of your friends. You just haven’t met me yet."
– Paige, (00:57)

On Ghostwriting for the Rich & Famous:
"Rich people suck... they want everything to sound so fancy... I'm sorry, but this is who you are. You're not Rumi."
– Paige, (19:18)

On Humor and Family:
"I don’t think I’ve ever laughed harder than at a funeral with my family."
– Paige, (31:33)

Pop Culture Defense:
"To me, it means something about the character if they’re wearing a Montcler jacket or a Columbia jacket. That matters."
– Paige, (63:23)

On Reading Aloud:
"If you’re bored, we’re bored."
– Paige, (50:52)

Relating to Characters:
"Every writer wishes people could watch a TikTok or something and get their sense of humor before reading."
– Paige, (29:14)

On Being Herself in the Work:
"If people don't like your books, they probably wouldn't like you. And it just kind of is what it is."
– Mikayla, (66:28)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:37 – Icebreakers: This or That with Paige
• 12:48 – Paige’s Origin Story as an Author
• 17:20 – Ghostwriting For Bravo-lebrities & Celebs
• 24:00 – Blending Genres & Inspirations
• 29:14 – Humor and Balancing Tones
• 34:51 – Writing Flawed Characters & Handling Critique
• 40:43 – Audiobook Narration Process
• 53:02 – Fancasting Characters & Adaptations
• 61:42 – Structure, Magical Realism, Theme of Time Loops
• 66:28 – Authentic Voice, Pop Culture, and Self-Acceptance
• 75:53 – Current Reads and Book Recommendations
• 79:47 – Upcoming Rom-Com & New Projects
• 80:59 – Final Thoughts & Wrap-up

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Tone & Atmosphere

The entire episode is a fast-paced, affectionate, and distinctly bookish chat. Paige’s wit and warmth shine through, with the hosts matching her energy and championing her joyful, “magpie” approach to writing. The discussion is peppered with humor, honesty about creative struggles, and a sense of camaraderie—like a real book club in podcast form.

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For Listeners Who Haven’t Tuned In

This episode offers a comprehensive introduction to Paige Harbison’s creativity, her asset as a voice in modern fiction, and a rare, candid look at the writing and publishing ecosystem. It demonstrates the value of writing from experience, embracing flawed characters, and letting your personal quirks and passions guide your work.

Highly recommended for fans of book talk, writing process deep-dives, author interviews, and anyone interested in the intersection of pop culture and contemporary fiction.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Hello, everybody. Welcome back to I'll read what she's reading. I'm Reggie.

[A]

I'm Mikayla. And I'm Kennedy.

[B]

And today we have a very, very special guest. This is somebody that you have heard us talk about on the podcast so many times. She is the author of one of our favorite books, the Other side of Now. Welcome. Paige Harbison.

[A]

Hi.

[C]

Thank you for having me. I'm so excited.

[B]

This is so fun for us. I feel like we've just been talking about you non stop since the Other side of now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so. And you have a new book coming out. 21st July destination funeral. It's so good. I just finished it last night.

[A]

It's amazing.

[B]

So, yeah, it's so fun to have you here after how much we've just like raved about you.

[A]

Yeah. I feel like our listeners, we. We talk about you like you're one of our friends. We're just like, we love you so much.

[C]

No, I am one of your friends. You just haven't met me yet.

[A]

Yes. And so now I feel like for circle moment, our followers should definitely know about you because we could talk about you 24 7.

[B]

So sweet.

[C]

I'm just. I. The feeling is very mutual. I'm like just the parasocial relationship I have with you guys is equal, so it's good.

[B]

Oh, we love to hear that.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. Well, we thought we would start off with a little icebreaker just to kind of get some things moving. See your answers to some of these questions, they're not really important questions, but they might be important. I don't know. They might be.

[B]

So we're gonna play.

[C]

I'll make them important.

[B]

Yes, we're gonna play a little this or that. Okay, are you ready? Okay, starting off with coffee or matcha?

[C]

Matcha.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

I worked at Starbucks when I was 13 years old, and I worked the entire time I was a teenager, all the way till I went to college. And I just maxed my nervous system out on espresso a long time ago. I can't. It makes me sick and it makes me tired. Matcha, I love.

[A]

Ooh, love that. I feel like the key with Matcha is having a good combo with it. Like, I can't drink matcha straight. It has to have some sort of other flavor to it.

[C]

But yeah, I'm a baby. I want a vanilla bean. I like, want it sugary. I. And when I was at Starbucks, my go to was a vanilla soy chai and a vanilla matcha with like, non fat Milk. That was just, like, my go to. I want that.

[A]

Good answer. I just had one the other day in California. It was like a mango matcha. Really good.

[C]

LA is obsessed with matcha with cloud cream right now. Like, Alfred Coffee does this cloud cream thing, and now everybody's doing it, and, like, General Foods is selling, like, cold cream, and it's just, like, melted whipped cream. But it is so good.

[B]

So good.

[A]

It's worth the hype.

[B]

I love the trends.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All right. TikTok or Instagram?

[C]

Instagram. TikTok is a black hole. I. TikTok is like, I. I love it and I hate it. And I'm kind of a post and Ghost on TikTok, and Instagram likes me better, so I have to, like, get better.

[A]

Yeah. You know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Ebook or physical book?

[C]

Physical book.

[B]

Do you own an ebook at all, like an E reader?

[C]

I do, but I forgot I had a Kindle, and my mom gave me one for Christmas. And then I was cleaning out a bookshelf, and I was like. And it was the exact same color, and everything was like. It didn't even look familiar to me. I didn't even know I had the Jew. It's good for. During the pandemic, I lived. I moved with my whole family to Palm Springs. We had a pool. Like, we split rent. The government was giving us all this bank money, and so we were paying. We had a great pool and a hot tub and everything. And I floated on the pool and ruined all my Sally Rooney books. Like, I ruined every book I was reading. And I got a Kindle, a waterproof Kindle during that period of time, which I don't know what happened to that one. This one's different, and that was great. The only problem was that it would overheat because it was Palm Springs.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[C]

But so I was like. I was. Either the glue was gonna melt or the machine itself was gonna just bake.

[A]

So. So.

[C]

But it has its moments, and it's good for certain times. But. Yeah, I like audiobook and I like physical book.

[A]

Me too. Same, same.

[B]

Well, one of our questions is audiobooks or podcasts.

[C]

Okay, so I can't answer that because I go through phases. Thanks for asking. No, I can't, because I go through such incredibly distinct phases where I'm either listening to the most brutal true crime, or I am listening to, like, off menu and Conan, and I'm listening to, like, comedy podcasts, or I am listening to audiobooks. And whenever I am in the phase of one of them, I'm like, why would I ever have listened to the other one? How do I. I can't even imagine listening to that. And then a day will turn over and I'm just like. And now I'm back to true crime.

[A]

So it's just.

[C]

But I am. I have headphones in all the time. I'm like a little adhd. I'm very like, I have to do all the laundry in the whole house and maybe the whole neighborhood before I can write. So it's like I do a lot of tasks. And yesterday I walked seven miles around my house cleaning my house. My house is not big. Oh my gosh, it is not seven miles big. I walked seven miles and 15,000 steps cleaning and I listened to like eight podcasts episodes.

[A]

I love it.

[B]

That sounds like me.

[A]

Like what podcast are you currently listening to right now?

[C]

Right now I'm deep in morbid, which I put off for a long time. I was very into red handed. I usually like with true crime. I like like a deep dive where it's like, like in your own backyard is one of my favorite deep dive true crime podcasts of all time. And Bone Valley. But then red handed is my favorite like parasocial relationship. Two best friends talking about true crime and I put off morbid and I don't know why. And then I finally got into it. Now I'm so hooked. And I'm on their listeners tales which are when they're like. I like their banter when they're laug than when they're being like super dour and being like super respectful. Yeah, I prefer when they're laughing. So I've been just housing the listeners tales and I'm currently on an episode about New Orleans, which is great because my next book is set in New Orleans, so.

[A]

Oh my gosh, you just gave us. Yeah, wait, this is kind of like off topic, but would you ever write like a true crime book?

[C]

I would love. I think that I like. I don't know if people would necessarily. My books aren't exactly just straight humor, but I think humor and horror are the same. I mean you'll hear a lot of comedians talk about about that or like filmmakers how like comedy timing and horror timing, like they're a very specific beat. Yeah. If I would love to write a horror, like I want to write a horror, I wrote one that kind of is a horror, but it doesn't have. I wrote it a long time ago and I can send you the PDF if you want it, but by all means fully unpublished. But it's it doesn't have that much humor. And I wrote it like seven years ago, so I'm a much better writer now. But I. If I were to do horror now, I would want it to have some comedy to like. Ready or not is one of my favorite, like, scary movies.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

Good. Has that, like, it has a big house. It has lore, it has. I love it. I would. I think one day I probably will. I want to write straight rom com. I want to do that somewhere, and I want to do horror.

[A]

Yeah. You wanna know what's crazy? We are not horror readers, but I would read a horror book by you.

[C]

Yeah, you would convert me. I think that also I'm big on write what you don't read. And I don't really read Magical Realism. I don't. When I wrote ya, which we'll probably get to. I didn't read ya. It's like, I don't really read horror either. But I love. I love feeling something and I love just like super creepy, icky. Like, I just heard this one ghost story on one of it, which is like, people whenever they just kept their glasses, like if they had a glass, it wouldn't like, it would just vanish. It would just, like, eventually enough people would not be looking at it and then it would go away. And then eventually they found them all in the attic.

[A]

What?

[C]

Hello. I'm like, please, what is that? And I love that weird feeling. So I feel like it would be so fun to just like get in that weird headspace. And my next one does have some creepier elements, so.

[A]

Because New Orleans, right? Yeah. I can't wait for that. You've already given us so much because we were gonna be like, what's your next project? You've already, like, told us.

[C]

I know, I'm sorry. I go in a thousand directions at once. Let's be honest.

[A]

All right. I guess going back to the.

[C]

Oh, yeah, we'll.

[B]

We'll give you a few more.

[C]

I love them. I love them.

[B]

Friends or the Office?

[C]

Oh, you know, I loved the Office and Parks and Rec and all those, like, you know, I loved all those comedies. I. I don't think the Office has much rewatch ability for me as Friends does. I just rewatched all of Friends recently. The Office is like, I really just don't want to these days. I don't want to spend time in one place and I want it to be a really nice place to be. And the Office is one of the funniest shows that has ever been created. But Friends is just like, More fun. Yeah.

[B]

Yes. Good answer. Sabrina Carpenter or Olivia Rodrigo?

[C]

Oh, God. Sabrina Carpenter. I can't stand Olivia.

[B]

Really?

[C]

I'm sorry. I'm gonna see. She. It's like, bless her heart. She seems cool and fun, like a fun person to know, but she. That music is just like, I never. I want. I don't want that in my feel. I've never been that girl. I was never, like, the millennial with the, like, emo and the, like, sad girl music. No. That makes so much sense.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

My sad girl music is Lana Del Rey. That is my life.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

That's my. When I go to, like, I just want melodrama, that's where I go. I don't go to that. But Sabrina Carpenter, I love that little. She is so funny. She's. She's an icon. The Man Child video and the Please, Please, Please video. Oh, my God. With Barry Keon.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

She's. She is hilarious. I love.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. She is so genius. I'm obsessed with her. Yeah. Her comedic timing on everything is just, like, top notch.

[C]

Oh, my God. She's giving Ariana Grande a run for her money.

[A]

Oh, for sure. Yeah.

[C]

As for pop stars who are secretly hilarious.

[B]

Book first or movie first?

[C]

I have the classic, want to read the book first? But sometimes I can't tell if it's just hype. Like the Housemaid. I was like, do I want to read this first or do I just want to watch it? And then I watched it and I was like, I don't need to read it. So sometimes I watch it and I do that. But Project Hail Mary, I was like, I should really read it first. But I was like, I was dragging my feet because, like, space. And then I watched it and I would like. We have Vespas. So we drove to the Chinese Theater in Hollywood and we saw Project Hail Mary and imax. And I was like, what is this? Going to interstellar? Going to be like, I don't need it the way home. I was weeping because I love Rocky so much, and I was just crying. And it is a very funny place to sob. Is on the back of a vest.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Hair flying in the.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Just so dramatic.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

I could.

[C]

Oh, my God. And I came home and I. I listened to Project Hail Mary immediately read it. I loved it so much. So sometimes it's just like, I want to spend more time in that place. And I think normal people was. Was the last time that I was like, I'm so glad I read it first. It's almost identical. That show is so true to the book. But I. I love both, but I. I would like to read it first and then be like, I want to see it come to life.

[A]

Yeah. I still haven't made it to normal people yet. The show or the book?

[C]

Lucky.

[A]

I know.

[C]

It is like, it's a good. Okay. When you. You read normal people or watch normal people when you're like, it's the summer and I want to yearn. It's like, it's. It's not. It's not a beach read in that it's like, going to take you and it's going to be funny and it's going to be like, these things, but, oh, that I am not. Her other books I've had harder time getting into, but, like, Normal People is just. It is. I call it my right geist. Like, the things that just, like, I don't even have to like something for it to be in my right, guys. I'm just like. It is. It is inspiring to me. I pull from it. I talk with my family and the people that I like, brainstorm with about these little elements. It's up there. I just.

[A]

It's great.

[B]

Love that.

[A]

Well, I'm moving it up in my TBR and my watch list.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Which means.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

I feel like this is a good

[A]

kind of transition because you kind of talked about, like, you know, Sally Rooney, maybe she's an inspiration to you basically, kind of tell us, like, how did you get your start as an author? How do you find inspiration? And I know both of those are very loaded questions, but just tell us about your journey as an author up to this point.

[C]

Yeah, I have a weird journey because I got published when I was 19 years old. And like I said, I didn't really read ya, but I was a ya and I was. I had worked at Starbucks since I was 13. I took a year off between high school and college, and I kept working. I got offered the assistant general manager job at 18 because I was like, I was in that job. Like, if I wish that I almost. Sometimes I wish I didn't have a creative streak because I would be an absolute corporate shark. Like, I was so good if something wasn't personal to me. I had such, like, I had read every single encyclopedic book that they had behind the counter. I was a coffee master. I had my black apron. I had every pin. I was so into it. And they offered me, like, AGM. And I was like, oh, my God, $40,000 a year. And then I was like, no, I should go to college, and my dad really wanted me to go to college. And then in between the summer between freshman and sophomore year, I just wrote this book. I just wrote this book called Here Lies Bridget. And it was about a girl who. A mean girl who got in a car accident and woke up in limbo with the five people she's wronged the most.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And she has to walk a mile in their shoes, basically. She's, like, in their head, having their thoughts, and her thoughts seeing herself from their perspective. And I sold it by October. Like, I wrote it in June, and I sold it by October, which was crazy. Um, and my mom is a author. She writes. She wrote what at the time was called chick lit. She wrote Shoe Addicts Anonymous. Beth Harbison. Um, she and she. So I had a connection to an agent, but it wasn't. So. I mean, I'm an uppo baby, but it was like. It was more like. The thing is, is, like, they wouldn't have represented me if they didn't like the book. The book was a great little, high concept book, and I think it probably was, like, a fun add on that I was young. But, yeah, she. Basically, what it did was give me something that a lot of people don't have, that I don't pretend not to have had, which was an opportunity to speak human to human to an agent. Like, I already knew Annelise, who was my agent for a long time. I already knew her. And we were just, like, at my grandmother's house, and everyone was drinking champagne, and my mom was printing out the book for her. She was like, you have to read it. You have to read it. It's really great. And my mom is, like, not a stage mom. She's, like, much more likely to cringe. So she was printing it out, and Annalise read it on the train, and then they wanted to represent me. So that's. It didn't guarantee anything was going to happen with it, And I was very lucky to, like, have that. And that's why it's not about really being an EPO baby. It's about having as many conversations with as many human beings as you can, because you might be a conversation away from them really, like, actually being interested in you. But so that was how I became a writer. I wrote three books that were ya. I didn't think it was a different time. I didn't think anything about, like, sales or numbers or anything. I go back and I look like, oh, my God. I had, like, no reviews like that. And also, they paid me, like, Nothing. But I mean, it was so cool. And then basically I spent my 20s. As soon as I hit, like, 22, I was like, I'm too old to write ya. And which probably is proof that I was right, because that is what a teenager thinks. And so I was like. Then I became really fixated on, like, what's the next great novel? Like, I have to write it. And I stopped kind of having fun, and I kind of just got, like, distracted by it needing to mean something. And I was just like, in this, like, who am I? What is my voice? What is my message going to be? I got stuck there for a long time. And I. One of the things that helped me break me out of it was doing ghost writing, which I was a bartender. Like, I, like, I worked at Starbucks. I was making non alcoholic drinks. And then in college, I switched to. I was fully, fully writing and I was under contract. And then I got out of college and I was bartending. And I was bartending until, like, two years ago. And I was always doing that on the side. And so ghostwriting helped me because it really got me out of, like, being too precious with my writings. I was like, this person's going on, you know, this late night talk show. I should be able to. And it's like, it just kind of got me, like, less worried, you know, and it's just a. It doesn't work. Doesn't work, you know? Yeah.

[A]

That's so cool. I mean, do you want to jump into our ghostwriting question? I'm like, so we have so many ghostwriting.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Can you tell us who you have, like, ghostwritten for? Is that kind of like an NDA thing where you can't share?

[C]

Most of them are NDA. I can say I've written for three Bravo liberties.

[A]

Who.

[C]

All of them are housewives. I want to write for the young brow. I want to write, like, I'm so obsessed with, like, Southern charm, Summer house, Vanderpump, rip. I want to write one of their books, but I haven't. I've only done some Housewives and. But I've done other. The one person I can say I wrote for is Melanie Hamrick, who is a ballerina. She's super cool. Both of them are erotic ballet novels.

[A]

Oh.

[C]

She is Mick Jagger's longtime partner of, like, a decade. Oh, my God. So technically Mick Jagger's read my book.

[A]

I mean, that's so cool. Did you have, like, good experiences for the most part, or how does that process even work?

[C]

Well, so Melanie is my dream. I love her so much I wish everyone was like, Melanie. She's so amazing. She's just fun to beat things out with. And she's. There's a lot of freedom and stuff, and we might do something again soon. Um, but some other experiences have not been as fun. I usually like them, and then it's just, like, over time. The problem with ghostwriting is that we. I've worked with my mom a lot. My mom and I have done several projects together, and we're doing one right now. I don't think I can say who it is, but who's, like, a huge icon and has been since the 80s. And. Okay, the. I'll tell you off camera, the. The problem is people have a really hard time seeing themselves, period.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And like, Melanie, I was doing fiction for, so it was more like she's like, I want to do something that feels like this. And I'm like, yes, I can give you this, like, super nasty. You know, these girls in the ballet world. You tell me about the ballet world, I'll bring the yearning. Like, let's put them in all these beautiful cities. Like, that's. Fiction's much easier to do with people because they're not having to look at the mirror that's being held up. People have a really hard time recognizing their voice. The last housewife I worked with loved her. I'd always been a huge fan of her. And then we got along for a really long time, and then she sort of just stopped. Just kind of maybe, like, the facade, like, the mask slipped a little bit, and she just got a little difficult. But she. Like, most of them have a hard time seeing themselves. It's like, if we take verbatim what they want in their. What they. What they saying in their transcripts, then they still don't recognize their voice. So kind of the trick of ghostwriting is getting them to. Getting them to sound like themselves and getting them to, like, what they hear. The worst problem is not who they are, but it's rich people. Rich people suck. And rich people are just like, one. One person that I wanted to. That I almost did something with was she. I don't know. She wanted, like, Jane Austen to be her ghostwriter. Like, it was just a wow. Like, you cannot hear yourself. Like, I was writing as fancy as I can, but these little people, they just want it to sound so fancy, and they think that they're expecting it to just be, like, this grand prose. And it's just like, you want to be likable, and this is who you are. This is Like, I'm sorry, but this is who you are. You're not, like, you're not roomy. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, you can't have everything sound so, like, you know, quotable. And it's just. They have a real hard time. And I've kind of like, I don't want to ghost. Right. Any. I'm sick of it. But it's. I think it's mostly doing non fiction. I would love to do fiction. I would do fiction. I am doing fiction for another, like, reality person I can't name yet, but I again, that. That I think my name will be on that. But until something is.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

But, yeah. So I think it's the nonfiction that's hard because they hate themselves deep down.

[B]

Oh, my gosh, that's.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, that's so interesting because I've never, like, we've talked about this before. Like, oh, we knew. No, there's ghostwriters out there. But we've never. And we've had so many questions about it. So it's cool to like, peel the curtain back.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

And kind of see what that's like. So where were you at in your ghost writing? You know, timeline of things where you decided to go back into, like, you're writing your own stuff?

[C]

Yeah, well, I'd been writing along the way, and one of my favorite books that I've ever written is unpublished and again, just sitting in a drawer. Like, I wrote a rom com that is very much based on a true story. But it's like. But I'm not very precious about it. It's just that it, like, it was inspired by something crazy. It used to be a bartending story that I would tell. Like, this romance that I had this like, long saga with this person. Like, everybody loved to hear this story because it was like, by the end they were like, oh, my God, I'm rooting for you guys to be together so bad. Even though I know you just said you're not. It was a. I loved it and I'm still hoping to do something with that. But I wrote that. I wrote the horror thing I told you about. I wrote this retelling of Lolita from Lolita's perspective, like, set in the 90s. I, like, did all kinds of stuff. I was always working on my own stuff. But agents only, like, they don't sell everything. And so it was. It was a matter of me writing something that was the right match for my agent or getting a new agent. I was too scared to leave my agent.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So I had just finished the one, the rom com, and we were, like, working on completely disagreeing about something big in it.

[A]

And.

[C]

And then I had the idea. I was sitting on a pool with my mom, and we were kind of brainstorming book ideas, and I was like, what if you got to an Airbnb and it was all your stuff? And that was the idea. And then I told my agent the idea that I had. She's like, put. Stop every. She called me in, like, late night. She's like, not a night owl. She called me middle of the night, and she's like, put everything aside. Write that book. And so I wrote the Other side of Now. So it was like, I was always trying to write my own stuff. It was just a matter of, like, writing something that they felt like they could sell. And I'm allowed to tell an agent, like, I don't care. Take it out anyway. But you really want your agent to.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know this book. And that was kind of how we got where we got with the Other side of Now. So that was. That was when I finally. I'd already done Two Housewives, and I'd already done. I was. I think I'd done one of the Melanie books by then, but I'd done a bunch of other little stuff, too.

[A]

I think you are such a cool person for so many different reasons, but specifically for, like, your author journey. I think what's so cool is the fact that you've written so many different things and you're not tied to one specific genre. So, like, reading the Other side of Now, I feel like if people ask me what genre it is, I can't exactly pinpoint it because it has so many different. Feels like it's funny, yet heartfelt, like, I cried. There's yearning, there's magical realism, there's travel. You had the best, like, pop culture references. Like, it literally is just a mashup of everything I love about being a reader. And after speaking to you, it's obvious that you're able to do that because of how many lives you've lived as a writer.

[B]

A hundred percent.

[C]

Thank you for saying that. That's so. That's, like, exactly what I want people to feel like. So that's great to hear. I mean. Yeah, I think every. The thing is, when you're a writer, you're. I think it was. God, I'm totally forgetting. Forgetting. It was like, maybe Paul Thomas Anderson, who was talking about how we're magpies. You know, like, when you're a creator, when you're an artist, you're a magpie. I totally agree with that. I feel like, I mean, like we talked about earlier, my right geist is like it's. And it's, it's a lot of stuff that's out of genre. And I pull a lot of things that are out of genre into what I write. And so I think it's the Orson Welles quote that's like, I. You don't, you know, I didn't know what I didn't know like when he did Citizen Kane. You know, not to compare myself to Orson Welles, but I mean, I would. It's like call me by your name is a huge, like, I'm a big atmosphere person. I'm a big person for like buy in. I think that when you're writing a book, you can make it as gritty, as miserable as anything as you want, but you have to have a buy in. And for me, it's like every book I write is gonna have like a big house. It's gonna. Or like a night like a cool storied home. It's gonna have atmosphere. It's gonna be set somewhere cool. It's gonna have like all these things. And like those things are the buy in for me. And I'm okay making a little bit things a little bit more challenging, but it's a nice place. Like Destination Funeral is much more challenging than the other side of now because the main character is a bitch. But she's there for a reason. She's that way for a reason. But the book is like dripping in nostalgia and melancholy and atmosphere and food and drink and like that for me is really important. So like Call Me by youy Name couldn't be more atmospheric. Like, I love it. I love that book and movie. Gone Girl is like one of my all time favorite. Talk about a book and a movie that are perfect. Like pitch perfect. And I love that. And like what I take from that is like I love her acerbic, honest tone. Gillian Flynn. I wish she would write a thousand books. She is so to the point. She's like Hemingway and that like she does not. She cuts the bullshit. So I take that and that's really important to me. And every time I get a little too floral in describing the Ivy, I'm like, okay, shut up. Nobody cares. And I try and bring that back. So it's like I don't remember the question. Oh, but they're bringing from a bunch of different lives. It's like I also, I was a bartender, like I said. So I talked to A lot of people. And like, it's a little bit like, people always like, oh, I bet they got a lot of ideas. Or a stupid, you know, customer would be like, oh, I got a story for him. Like, you don't. What I'm going to take from you is all of this, but your, your life story is nothing to me. But like, I think that it's true that you just like, pick up these little ingredients and like, people stick in my head and they kind of combine into like side characters or like people who inspire me. Like, I remember this girl who came into a bartender bar when I was working one time. I was like, she is just like the most grand, beautiful girl who was so, like, put together and just incredible. And she just held court at her table. Never left my mind. Like, never left my mind. And it's just like, I'll never know who she was. I don't even know what drink I made for her. She was at a time table. But it's like, you know, I just. Yeah, you do have to just pick up from everything. And I think that the problem that happens with. I think when you don't like a book, it's usually because it gets a little navel gazing. It's too self aware. It knows what it's doing, so it's trying to hit certain marks and it's like, I just, I don't think that. I think I get too bored to do that. So. Yeah, for me.

[A]

But I feel like you balance everything so perfectly. Like, I don't know how else to describe it. Besides, your books just like create balance and satisfaction. But, like, I feel like you're descriptive and I can imagine myself in your stories, but it's not like, overly descriptive. So that makes sense. Like, you're just like, you write the perfect amount of everything where I'm like, so involved and I just love it. I just think you have such a talent and I just need you to write a thousand more books for us.

[B]

Well, and how is it.

[C]

I'm gonna send you everything unpublished. You can have it.

[B]

Okay, sure.

[A]

Please do. Yeah.

[B]

And how is it that you do that so seamlessly? Like, specifically your humor, but then also like the emotional side of your books? I feel like they have like a good balance of both. But how are you. How do you just do it so seamlessly? Is there like a secret sauce to

[A]

it or is it like that TikTok audio? That's. What's that TikTok audience like? I don't know. I just do it.

[C]

Do it. Yeah. I Think it. I just do it a little bit, but I think it's personality. I think that my books are who I am. I feel like I was just saying this to somebody. It's like, I feel like I wish that everybody who was. I wish it was required that someone before reading my book, especially Destination Funeral, which I, like, I said is more challenging. I wish they would listen to this podcast or, like, watch one video on my TikTok Tock or Instagram, and they'll be like, oh, I get her humor. And that's why I love reading audiobooks, too, because it's just like I. There's like a. My mom and I constantly are having to call each other, not text each other, because we're like, please don't misinterpret what I just said. And it's like there's an old Pee and Peel sketch where they keep misinterpreting what each other's saying.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Bringing a baseball bat over. It's like that My mom and I've had so many, like, the. Is this, like. I feel like with books, it's like, there's a lot of tone I hope is not lost. And I feel like it's really a matter of the people who like it are always people who I would be friends with in real life, people who don't like it. I'm like, we probably wouldn't get along because, like, you're not getting. You're not reading it with the right meter, or not the right meter, but my meter for me, I mean, when I went to Ireland, I was like, oh, this is why I am who I am. Because I am Irish and Scottish mostly, and then Lithuanian, which. God, I'm sure when I go there, I'll be like, oh, when I was in Ireland, it's like the taxi driver, at one point, he was just sitting there, he's talking about his sister and how she died of an opium overdose and it all this, this, that. And then the next thing he said, oh, you know, you're going to want to go to that pub down there. And it just like, he was having such a great time. He had no. There was no division between complete trauma dumping and just, oh, you have a great time down that pub. Like, it was just like, I love this man. I like, while it was happening, I looked at Richie, my partner, and I was like. And he was like, yeah, yeah. Because I don't think anything of just, like, dropping the craziest, darkest part of my lore and then being like, oh, my God, we Should do spritzes. Like, that's just, like. For me, that is the balance. And I. My family's big on gallows humor. Like, I genuinely don't. I don't think I've ever laughed harder in any memory with my whole family than at a funeral.

[B]

Like, okay, okay.

[C]

We went to a Cheesecake Factory for some reason after a funeral once. And I just remember it was. There are a lot of women in my family were just dying, laughing, and I don't know why. I think there is, like, to a certain extent, it's coping, but it's just like. I don't know. Big emotions are big emotions. And it's just like, the funniest thing, the worst thing. It's just like, you know, they. To me, they are the same. And again, I think that goes to the horror thing. Like, the scariest thing is the funniest thing. The thing makes you go and, like, have this feeling. It's like, am I laughing or crying? You know, am I, like, am I scared? Or am I so surprised that I'm gonna laugh? Like, I think that that is all kind of the same thing. And to me, it's just like, I want everything to be well rounded. I, as a huge bartender, it's like, when I teach bartending, it's the same thing. I have, like, people who I'm teaching. I don't teach them recipes and be like, memorize this. I'll be like, okay, taste. Taste the gin, you know, now. Or here, taste the rum. And now taste it cold. And now taste it with lime. And now taste it with lime and sugar. And then. That's why a daiquiri is the holy trinity cocktail, because you need the balance. And then you can start to add in the things like the bitters and the garnish and that, like the expression on top. Or you can add egg white. Like, how do you change texture and add that, like, last base note? I feel like that's just kind of how I take to everything. Like, you add a little bit of everything, but it's very unconscious to me. It's not. I think that the problem is actually when I overthink it, I get really stuck. When I try to, like, make something what it is, when I go naturally off of who I am and how I think about things, it comes out much better than if I overthink it, then it gets muddy, which is my problem. When I was a painting major after I dropped acting, when I got published, and my problem with painting is that I would overthink it and Then everything came out, like, because. And that's because I'm not that great a painter. I'm not as good at painting as I am some other things. And it's because I overthink it. So that's a visual example.

[A]

Do you ever get, like, the publishing, like, jitters, like, when you're. When you have a book that's coming out, is it ever scary to you, or are you just kind of like, I feel confident in this. I'm putting it out, and whoever reads

[C]

it, reads it the other side of now. I was like, I don't even take credit for this book. It, like, was given to me. It came to me so effortlessly. Every voice in that book, like, Kira in that book. I was like, I don't know if she's just me in some ways, or if I. If I felt like I was visited by Aisling Be, the Irish comedian. She just was her to. To me, every line. I knew exactly what she'd say. I didn't have to work that hard on that. I also have taken to outlining a little bit more, which I hate, because I'm very jazzy. I'm like, this is just a little bit of this and a little salt. Like, I need to not do that because that's. That's what got me stopped up, being like, oh, God, I have no plot. Like. So I. Yeah, what was the question? Do you ever get, like, jitters?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, so the other side of now. No, I was just like that the book is like. I mean, I probably have just forgotten them. But I felt really confident about that book, this one, because I know that the main character is. She's an angry eldest daughter. She's somebody who has any eldest daughter listening will understand the feeling of being like, but I did all this for you. And then someone saying, I didn't ask you to, and you being like, that

[A]

is not good enough.

[C]

Yes. It's like, what happens when that compounds over a lifetime and just makes you so angry and you just like. And then you're like, the problem of being somebody who always takes the load off, makes the conversation keep flowing, you know, and then feeling like all this resentment eventually and being like, I'm so sick of carrying everything. And no, nobody asked me to do it, but it wouldn't have happened if I didn't do it. I needed to do it. And now I'm pissed off. And now I don't even want to, like, take the extra step to make things better, because then it's just me doing more Again. And that is who this character is. And I understand her deeply. And a lot of people are, you know, I've seen a few reviews. I look at reviews in the beginning and then I stop because I'll go insane. But like a lot of you being like, I understood her by the end and it's like, yes, that is reading a book. That is the point. But yes, it's like she. You get to know why she is, how she is. But I get it. Like, I get like, people want people to be likable, but right now we're in an era of like over moralizing everybody and just. It's like, let her be flawed. She sucks right now. She's pissed off. She's at her mom's funeral with a bunch. With her ex boyfriend who's she's mad at, her sister who she hasn't talked to in years, who's like, do whatever you want. And then like some guy who is wonderful and kind of just got lost in the mix. But it's like. And she's got to go deal with all this. And it's like, yeah. And so I don't have a problem with having a character again. You need the buy in. It's like my buy in, if I was reading Destination Funeral is like, oh my God. But I love everybody else and I love this place. And I want to know why she's so mad. But I. So I feel less. I'm like, oh, this is going to be more polarizing. But yeah, when I just did the audiobook, I read back through it and I was like, this is a good book. I. I'm. I felt a little bit more confident after finishing. I was like, okay, I feel better about it and I have to not overthink people's reviews. And that's why I don't read them. I always want to get like a temperature in the beginning and kind of the first hundred reviews will tell you what the next thousand and ten thousand are going to say. So it's like, what are people gonna think about this? It's like they're gonna not like Didian and some people are gonna give up or they're just not gonna get her because probably they're the youngest.

[A]

Hey, you wanna know what, though? I'm the youngest and I understood her.

[C]

Well, there you go. See, this would be me. We need more youngest siblings like you, you know.

[B]

Well, no, I finished it and I was like, oh, I am her.

[C]

Yeah, a little bit. I was like, oh, wait.

[A]

But also I find who the main character Is maybe a little bit more unlikable, Way more interesting than the books where this female main character is just perfect. Very. What's the word I'm looking for? Like, stoic, flat. But, like. Yeah. Agreeable and just, like hallmark.

[C]

Hallmark hero.

[B]

Yes, exactly.

[A]

I don't want that. I want someone that's a little bit more interesting. And I love books where you can look at the characters at the end compared to the beginning, and there's actually character development rather than, yeah, maybe the plot is, like, solved, but the characters didn't change at all.

[C]

Yeah, well, no. And I think that the thing is, is that. And I watch just as much as I read. So, like, my references are always all writing. You know, even video games. Like, video games can have great writing, you know, and, like, that's a subset of different. You know, like, not the same crossover always, but, like, something that has good writing, Even if it's just a TikTok that somebody improvised. Like, great writing is great writing. Yeah. And, yeah, I mean, I want somebody to be more flawed. Every woman that I know, most of the authors that I know are women. And I mean, it's the number one struggle. Like, they always hate her. They always say she's difficult. They always say she's unlikable. And it's because you're in her head, by the way. Whether it's third person, first person, you're usually in her head, seeing all her worst thoughts, you know, or you're getting the explanation of her being like, God, I'm being such a jerk, But I just can't stop. It's like, yeah, I think the problem is, like, when you get. When you get these, like, a 24 ass movies and books that are just, like. It's ambiguous and, like, Emma Klein is never gonna be my friend Because I can never stop talking about the guest. How that character is, like, she's flawed. She just. And she keeps on being flawed, and, like, nothing happens. And it drives me insane. But there are books like that where we, like, when it's an awful character, we want them to grow or we want them to be punished. And it's like, you know, yesteryear is a great example of. She's like an unlikable main character, and she's super polarizing. But it's like, I loved her. I was like, this is great, you know, And I. There are other thoughts that I have about the whole book, on the whole. But it's like, yeah, like, I'm. And again, gone girl. Like, Amy dunne. What a jerk. She's so horrible. But I love her. She's brilliant. She's. I respect her, and I don't need her to be anything she isn't. And, you know, by the end, she kind of gets, you know, punished and she gets to succeed. Like, you get everything.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. I don't know. For me, my unlikable character, like, red flags. Like, if I have to read about one more hardened, alcoholic journalist who doesn't want to talk about it, like, that is me out. I'm done. I can't. Like, that, to me, is unlike. Well, because it's tropey, because it doesn't feel personal. You can be. You can be unlikable if you're. If you're a genuine jerk, but if you're just a trope and just an imitation of other. You know. And again, I think that that hardened alcoholic journalist who doesn't want to talk about it is the same as the Hallmark heroine, where it's just like, yeah, man, is she brave. Oh, she's so stoic, and she doesn't complain. And it's like, that is not the perfect woman.

[A]

Yeah. So I'm.

[C]

That's. That's when I get unlikable characters.

[B]

So what's it like to understand your characters so clearly? Because, I mean, you've written them and then get to portray them in the audiobooks? Because for those listening that don't know, you narrate your own books. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

[A]

Like what?

[B]

I just want to know literally everything, but specifically, like, what is it like to bring your own characters to life in your own voice?

[C]

Well, which.

[B]

You're a fantastic hat, by the way. People have gotten a little taste in this episode.

[C]

My tactic.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

Yeah, just talent. You elude talent.

[C]

I love it here. I mean, it's the. I did. I acted. And I was a theater major. I grew up acting. My dad was a musician, so I was always on stage. And I'm just a ham. I'm a Sagittarius. I'm like, you know, I just want attention. So it's like, I was always. It's like. I mean, I remember. I remember what I got in trouble for in fifth grade was that my teacher literally had to talk to my mom and be like, she will not stop doing a British accent, and we stop doing iconic.

[A]

So. Yeah.

[C]

And also, when my mom was pregnant with my brother, I just. For whatever reason, the character that I became was like an. Was like an impatient Brooklyn waitress at a diner. I was like, what do you want? You want Something you want me to get. And I was just like, running around the house being just like, oh, you want me to turn off the bath of water? She can smell the bath of water. And I'm just like, that's unbearable. Like, I am why I'm not having children. It's like, oh, can you imagine?

[A]

Horrible.

[C]

But anyway, I. So when I kind of one, for one thing, I started doing comedy videos on Instagram and TikTok between I wish I started doing in the Pandemic, because that's when everybody blew up. But instead, I was healing. And so in 2023, when my. When I signed the contract for St. Martin's I had to wait two years for the book to come out in order to do the. It was like I was choosing no big deal. I was choosing between publishers to go with, and I could have had it come out in 2024 with a different publisher or wait and have it come out with St. Martin's which felt bigger and a little bit more what I wanted. And I was like, I want to try doing this. Like, the correct. Like, the big five. The, like, you know, the. I want to try doing it that way, and if that doesn't work, then I can go rogue. But. So I wanted to go with them, but I had to wait two years. And in that time I was like, I have 1800 Instagram followers. I want to have more. And I'm just going to grow that because I got nothing going on and I already got paid, so I can do nothing for the next three months. So I just kind of, like, started doing stuff and I was very nervous because of all the people I used to be snarky with, you know, I'm like, oh, I don't not friends with them anymore because they're mean, but I used to be mean with them. And I can just picture them making fun of me for. For trying. For the embarrassing social crime of trying something. And so I was really nervous, too. And then I just, like, started doing it anyway. And then, like, once one hit a million, I was like, whatever. And then I did. Started doing Hallmark movies in one minute. And it started with a video of just like every Hallmark heroine. And I just over and over, I just start going, oh, hi. Oh, hi. And I just did that. And then I started doing just a whole Hallmark video in one minute. And it was just. And then I always. The character was Luke, and it was just like, you're probably wondering why I got here. You're. Oh, it's like, all the same. Like, this is Where I come to think and just, you know, well, I really want my son to walk, so I have to save the bakery. It's like. And I just started doing these, and they got really surreal. Like, they started, like, it's pretty straight imitations, and then they got super surreal and bizarre. And that sort of built my following. And so suddenly I was, like, acting again, which was really fun. And, like, it was just kind of improv and, like, just being funny. And it's funny. I recently got in touch with my college boyfriend, and we're friends now, and I talk to his wife, like, every day. And he's like, when did you get funny? And I'm like, I was always funny, but maybe not at that time, because, like, when we were, I don't know, in college, it's like, I don't think I was in that headspace. And something freed me about doing these videos. And it was funny for, like, my family and stuff, but I started doing that. And so that kind of got that going again and made me feel confident. And then when I started hearing the auditions for the Other side of Now, I was like, no.

[B]

No.

[C]

Audiobook narrators are do or die for me. I am like, ever since I was a little kid and I was listening to Winnie the Pooh on tape, I was like, I can't with this narrator. I hate her. And so I was listening to these narrations. I. Everybody hates their own voice. This wasn't that I was like, guys, have you heard me speak?

[A]

This was more.

[C]

It was more like, I am listening to these narrators.

[A]

I.

[C]

One of my biggest pet peeves is when they have this, like, really low, sort of overwhelming voice.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And I can't stand. I'm like, you don't sound like someone I would have fun with or someone that I can be in the head with, where I'm just like, I'm flawed. I'm crazy. I don't know. I'm normal. It's like. It's so overwrought, and I can't stand that. And I don't like when the men's voices. I don't like that. I hate the little kid voices. So I gave them a chapter that had accents. Women's voices, men's voices, kids voices, and comedy. And it was. It was chapter 14, I think, and the Other side of now, which was the birthday party for the kid. And everybody. There was one joke, and everybody kept reading it wrong. And I was like, this is my nightmare, because this book is supposed to be funny, and it has to Be funny. And they have to get the comedy. And so I kind of was just like, can I throw my hat in the ring? And they. I think they were just being nice. And they were like, sure, you can do that. Little author who needs to have her fingers and everything. And I did it. And I got an email back immediately. They were like, you can just record it on voice memo. And if you mess up, I'm like, girl. As if I'm not going into Ableton and editing the living hell out of this and making sure it's perfect. Yeah, mixing it and mastering it. You're crazy. So I sent this, like, entire chapter, perfectly edited everything. And they're like, you can do it. And I was like, hell, yeah. That's a really long answer. Sorry. But when I was bringing life to those characters, like, they already existed to me.

[A]

So.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And I'm already playing them in my head always. And I also. The advice I would give anyone who wants to write, always read your work aloud. I don't care if you hate your own voice, don't record it. It doesn't matter. Read it aloud because you're gonna. You're gonna realize, oh, my God, I just said benign seven pages ago. You can't say benign twice. Like, big, like, words that you notice if they. If they're gonna be too close, you're going to notice. If dialogue sounds clunky, you're going to notice. You're straight up just going to notice errors like continuity, everything. Like. And I have always read. My mom would have me read her books to her when I was growing up. And then when I started writing, I'd always read my books to her while she was, like, making pasta or doing, you know, like, doing some. Something in the kitchen. And I read to my brother or I read to Richie. I read to whoever. I'm like, work, you know, like my inner circle. And, yeah, like, I'm literally editing as I go, you know, Like, I'm like, that's. I. And also, if something's funny, like, it's like, I don't know if you've ever seen David Sedaris on stage. He's making notes as he's reading, like, at, you know, whatever, in front of a huge audience and making changes before it goes in the book. And, yeah, like, if I notice something is working, I'm going to notice that and whatever. And, you know, if somebody gets like, wait, wait, so who. Wait, who's so and so, then I know that that matters to change. So I've always already had the Characters kind of down in my head. And, you know, that was like the easiest thing in the world. I'm actually narrating a Genevieve Wheeler book in the fall. And because I fell in love with audiobook narrating, I was like, please, everybody, give me more audiobook work.

[B]

You're amazing at it.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Like, genuinely. I remember starting or not Destination Funeral, Other side now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I remember, like, there were times I almost like had to pause listening, being like, hold on a second. I was so impressed with all the different accents you did and just how there's sometimes when you listen to an audiobook and you're like, okay, I'm listening to an audiobook. But there's times where you're listening to an audiobook, yours, for example, where I forget that I'm listening to a book and I feel like you are in my head and I am you.

[C]

And it's so well done.

[B]

Yes. And you all are. I mean, like you said with the comedy, they've got to get the comedy. And who's going to know that better than you? Than you. So, yeah.

[C]

And knowing the inflections and knowing like every way that I intended something, it's like, I think maybe that's for the more die hard people who really want to know, like the meat and they're not just like reading it to read it. But it's like a lot of people have said that too, that it matters to them. And it is rare, like for, for an author to a fiction author to read their own. But like Stephen Rowley read the Gunkle. He's like the only person who could read that. Like, of course you should read that. And like, at this point I'm writing thinking we should give her this accent because I can do that accent. Like, yeah, like, how fun for you. Australia now.

[A]

But I mean, it's, it's a good point because sometimes when you're listening to an audiobook and it's meant to be funny and the narrator just reads it bone dry, the comedy isn't portrayed. Yes. But obviously listening to yours is a lot more of an experience. Obviously we listen to the other side of now, and then this time we're able to read Destination Funeral. And it's kind of crazy because almost at times, not that I can like hear you reading it in my brain, but since I listened to you read the other one, sometimes I'm like, oh, maybe she would say this. Like this.

[C]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Or things like that. And also such a genius thing to read your book out loud. We've Never had an author say that they do that on the podcast, but now that you say that, it makes a lot of sense. Makes so much sense.

[C]

Yeah, you have to. And I don't think it hurts that I have the acting background because, like, clunky dialogue and stuff or. Or if something's going on too long, if you start to zone out when you're reading it. Like, every. Every writer also. And I say this because most, like, the successful writers are probably already. These things are innate. But, like, for people who are trying to become authors, which I'm sure a lot of people listening to reading podcast, it's like, if you're bored, we're bored.

[A]

Like, yeah.

[C]

And when I'm reading something, if I'm just like, oh, my God, this description, it's like, give it a rest. Like, I know I need to cut it. Or if I'm. If I find myself omitting something that feels like cringy to say, I'm like, why would I put it in there then if I don't want to say it out loud? You know? And it's not character stuff, but it's just like, some way I put something is weird. I don't know, because I also. I'm a person who kind of blacks out when I write because my writing style is insane. And I recommend it to nobody, which is that I, like, write for, like, 16 hours straight. And, like, I'm like, Gollum. I'm like, I'll pee after this chapter. And it's like, I. And I just go and go, and I write. Really. I write my first draft, like, very, very fast. Like, the fastest I've ever written is, like, in two weeks. But then, of course, it takes a long time to do editing and stuff. But I have to write that way because for me, I don't remember. I. I really respect people who have, like, their religious way of sitting down. And like, every day they do this. Not for me. Not could never be me. I need to, like, sit down and binge. Right? Because that's how I remember. Oh, I phrased something like this. And every time that I start to get too distant between, like, editing sessions or whatever, I'll notice that I'm like, I put something in. And I realize, like, oh, paragraph later, I already did that. And then, like, because, I mean, it's like, you know, it's like a. A time loop in itself where it's like, well, I'm always gonna make the same choices, so I'm gonna notice it should be there.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And I kind of need that momentum to ride. And yeah, I mean, reading it out loud, especially to somebody, if you have somebody who is your cold reader or someone you trust, your partner or parent or somebody. Just a friend, it's just so helpful. And it's so funny to say that you, like, have me in your head, because all my friends who read it are like, it's just you talking. And I'm like. And they like, especially, like, even, like, Here Lies Bridget, my first book. Everyone was just like, even reading it because they know me. When they physically read it, they're just like, it's just you telling me a story. Then it's like, I guess I, I, I am gonna. Me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No, but I love it.

[B]

Well, that's so special, too.

[C]

Yeah, it's so.

[B]

I think that's really special. So you're, you're a writer. Obviously, you. You've got acting experience.

[C]

Do you.

[B]

When you're writing your books, are you imagining them as any, like, actors or actresses? Like, do you fancast your own books? Yeah. Oh, yeah. And we want to hear. We want to hear.

[C]

I don't. It's like, it's not always. It's funny that you asked that, because I just was saying to Richie the other day, to my fiance, I was like, I. Because my next book is going to be challenging. Not in a. I'm actually making an effort to, like, all right, I gave him a difficult character. Everyone's going to be likable as hell in the next book. But it's like, I'm kind of like, I want, I'm, like, going into it with, like, I want, like, a Bill Nighy guy in it, and I want, like, this. And I'm like. And I don't usually go this direction, but I'm just like. And I want, like, somebody in it to be Kate Winslet. You know what I mean? Like, I'm like, I want these people to kind of be these different people. I want, like, this person to be a Ryan Gosling. And it's like, usually they're kind of like. Like I said in the Other side of Now, Kira just was Aisling Bee. And if you, like, look at. If you're not familiar with her and you've read the book, it's like, go watch any clip of her, and you'll be like, that's her. Yep, that's her. And so she kind of just was her in my head. It's funny, the main character is often the less distinctive. It's like, to me and I. And I hesitate too Because I know that some people have, like, somebody's in their head and they don't want to find out that somebody is played by somebody else in the writer's head. But to me, Killian was Paul Mescal or. Oh, my God, Jack o', Connell, who I've been in love with since Skins uk, who is just my dream. He's so hot. He was kind of one of them to me. But he was named after Cillian Murphy and, well, and then Grayson Gamble, the airheaded boyfriend back in LA in the beginning of the Other side Now he was named after Ed Gamble, the British comedian, because he just was him to me. In my head, he's like, okay, looks like Prince Charming.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I'm like, he's him in my head. And then. But then. And then, like, the more main characters are a little bit harder. Like, I've done casting for, like a film agent, you know, who's representing it. It's like I've. I've actually given them who I think. And Molly Gordon, who directed and was in theater camp and who was the girlfriend and the bear. She's kind of Amy to me in the other side of.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[C]

And then the main character is like every. I mean, they're just always like Jennifer Lawrence because that's like, who I feel like I. That's my spirit animal. It's like, that's me. That's who I am. We should be best friends. It's like Emma Stone, Jennifer Lawrence, like the. The fun, funny, self effacing can. You know, that's always kind of my input. Main character. But destination funeral. I haven't really mentally cast yet because I've just. I don't know, there's so much I've been putting together. I did all these mood boards for my Instagram and stuff and there's so much like, vibe stuff, but I haven't really figured out who any of those people are. Except speaking of Kate Winslet, for some reason, babe was a little bit her. Like her. And she played like a funky character that she kind of played. She's also a little bit like Princess Diana in my head. Like, it's not always.

[B]

Yeah, I can see that.

[C]

Sometimes it's just people who inspire me. She's like, flawed, but very loving, but crazy. I don't know. She's also anti mame. Like, there are a lot of, like, character draws. But I haven't really done casting in my head for Destination Fiona yet, but I would love to hear if you have.

[A]

Oh, I'm the worst fan caster. I'm trying to think of, like, two sisters.

[C]

Oh, the Fannings would be great.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah. The one Fanning in Margot's got money problems.

[C]

Yeah. Elle Fanning.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Playing. Wait, how do you pronounce? I feel like she could play Didian really well.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I love her too. They also, I mean, they're so funny together. Like, their chemistry is so great. I feel like they'd be great.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Oh, well, except for, okay, the Austin is Matthew McConaughey. Like, he just is Matthew McConaughey. Peak. I'll tell you, the guy in 10 days. He just is that. He has always been him and yeah, he's just, that's who he is in my head.

[A]

That's so fun.

[B]

I love that.

[A]

Are you, Would you want, like, your books to be picked up? Did you say that your book has been picked up by someone or.

[C]

It has. I have. There's a film agent who represents it. And like, there's been, there have been conversations and there's been this and that, but there's always conversations and.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

You never know. So I, I, I mean, I feel like Destination Funeral. Okay. Destination Funeral went through. And I, I, I hesitate to say because someone's gonna be like, yeah, it shows, but it. Nothing has undergone more change than Destination Funeral. I wrote it from multiple perspectives. I had two other friends initially in it. It was set in Provence. I had it, like, everywhere. I did all kinds of different versions of it getting started. I did two entire full rewrites where it was in her head and in Sammy's head. It was in both sisters heads and flashbacks. And it wasn't. There was no magical time loop. It was just the two of them and then the flashbacks. And then everyone was confused all the time. So I was like, okay, well, I have to change it, so. And it was just too. It's too much to do. Two POVs and the pass, I think. Yeah, I initially wanted to do it third person kind of in everybody's head. More movie. Like, you know, so you're sort of, you're with Matt and he's with the. But I just don't like writing third person. I just, I write that very personal first person flawed. You know, that's sort of funny and flawed. And I just don't have fun writing third person. So it just had to be first person. And I know that other reviews have said, I wish it was like this. And it's like, do you. Well, it's like, I can't do It. I just. Third person was just. It does not. She's. It's not as easy to be in the heart for me. So. Yeah, I feel like Destination Funeral would be a great show because you. And then because I'm loving somebody else to do that work. Acting would be great if it was like, the Big Chill, which, you know, an ancient film, but, like, it was. I was following all of them in their personal dramas and more stuff I would love to do. I would love. It was a show and if it was following all of their different stuff and having kind of their personal. Maybe their personal episode, like Skins and Lost and stuff where it's like their past flashback.

[B]

Oh, I'd love that.

[C]

That'd be so fun, Woody. And I love shows when they have flashbacks, too, and show the same character younger. And then the other side of now, I think would just be a great movie.

[A]

Oh, for sure.

[B]

Yeah. 100. Would you want to star? Like, would you like, if you could cast yourself as a character in any of your books, if it was put to screen, like, who would you want to play?

[C]

I think I could be. I could certainly be the angry eldest daughter. I mean, I think it would be like in. It's like the problem is when you're trying to sell a movie or something, like, they want talent attached. So, like, the main characters, like, they want to get like a big. So it's like the practical side is like, well, yeah, I much rather be, like, somebody huge. But it's like, in like, the dream way. It's like. Yeah. I think that I could be either of those main characters and I get them deeply, obviously. But I also think I would be great at being Kira.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And the other side of now, I would be a great Kira. And I could also be a great pain in the ass little sister. So I could be.

[B]

That would be iconic, actually.

[A]

Iconic you to play a part. Yeah. Rather than just when they get picked up.

[C]

I want you to play a part.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I don't want to be like the self conscious. Like, the author is sitting on the bench in Madison Square Park. Yeah.

[A]

No, no, no, no, no.

[C]

Reading her own.

[B]

Like, give me lines.

[C]

Yes. Yes.

[B]

No, I'm rooting for you for that because that'd be amazing.

[A]

It's interesting that you say that some people do wish it was written in third person or Destination Funeral, because I find it so.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In first person because it creates a little bit more of that, like, mystery and intrigue of the other characters and what they're thinking, which I feel like is so Important to Destination Funeral specifically. Oh, yeah.

[C]

I think that when people want that, they. They actually just want more, period. And they don't know what they mean. And I think that like. Or they. I mean, that book is a long book in manuscript form. That book is 105,000 words or something. And usually they're going for like between 80 and 100 or 70 and 90. So it's like, it's. It's on the long end. Even though printed, it doesn't look that big. It's like 500 something pages in a manuscript. So.

[A]

Oh my gosh.

[C]

I mean, there just wasn't that much space to go into more. And there were. I mean, you know, if I were to release the Midnight sun version of Destination Funeral, it's like there is just like there was a whole. There were so many other memories and stuff. And like I said, there were other people. Like, Taylor Ray is like a side character. She used to be one of the gang. Yeah. And she was really. She was really fun to write. I liked her as much as I liked writing Kira and I just. I didn't end up doing. But it was. It was her and she. She was the mother of the dot of the little kid in it initially. And then also Austin used to be two people used to be her love interest and he used to be Sammy's ex. And so. And Sammy used to be. Everything used to be different. Sammy was initially like a Molly Baz inspector inspired shelf chef influencer who was like a little bit more. And Molly Baz isn't this way on her, but like she was supposed to be a little bit more like she was obsessed with the fact that she just lost. Went down from a million followers and stuff that. And I was like, you know what? People hated all of the Hollywood stuff in the other side now. Like if there was a criticism. And that book is mostly beloved, which. Thank you. They hate the Hollywood stuff and they hate the pop culture references. And I'm like, I love that and I don't get it.

[A]

I love it. I think they were so, so great.

[B]

So great. I feel like there's some books that have like pop culture references or. Yeah. Hollywood things in it. And it can feel kind of like it takes you out of the story. But we've said this a million times. You did it so tastefully. Thank you so genuinely from the bottom of our hearts.

[A]

Just know that critique from us at all.

[C]

I like it. I like, to me it means something about the character if they're wearing a Montclair jacket or they're wearing a Columbia jacket, that matters. But, you know, like, it's a way to, like, it makes a difference. And her getting and being like, oh, my God, I'm here. And this is the. And I have the same Ilia mascara. Like, that's weird that in both lives I would end up with the same mascara. But is it weird? And like, to me, that is important. And my mom also, for anybody who's like, oh, my God, Beth Harbison, that's crazy. I didn't know it was her daughter. It's like my mom is such a beloved following for her nostalgia writing about, like, writing in the. Writing about, like the 80s and the like, gee, your hair smells terrific and the baby soft and like all these, like, scents and smells and stuff. And I think that to a certain extent there's a little bit of like, once it becomes nostalgia, people love it when it feels too immediate. It's like, I don't want to think about a Kardashian right now. And it's like, well, deal with it. But it's like, I. To me, I love those little things. I think brands. I'm not like a very brand obsessed person at all. I like, I actually hate when, like, expensive things are very brandy. So I'm not like that. But I do think it means something about who you are, depending on your choices, what you buy. So I think it's interesting to have those little things and the pop culture references. I'm very aware of not making it dated, but it's just like some people have been in the mix so long, it's okay. You know what I mean?

[B]

Like, yeah, well, I never thought of it that way, but that makes so much sense. And I feel like that just gives. That just gives so much more to your characters, makes them feel more real.

[A]

Well, and also I feel like too, the more we've learned about you and just the fact, like, how much you're into pop culture and the fact that you co host a podcast with your mom. Right. And it's kind of more about pop culture.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I just feel like it's so much cooler to know that about you. And it just makes your books that much more personal to you, if that makes sense. Yeah. Just the fact that. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

You can't fight your own voice.

[A]

No.

[C]

And I think that's something that, like, you know, I had to kind of learn about like the unlikable character. I'm like, guess they wouldn't like me because it's like this. And they're not always me at all by any means. Like Diddy. And I'm not as pissed off as Diddy, you know, but, like. And I'm not. And I'm not Meg either. I'm not really either of them the main characters, these last two books. But I also share a lot with them. But I share a lot of every part of it. And I think you have to not fight who you are. So, like, when you're writing, you have to like. And again, that's kind of the ghostwriting thing. People have a hard time looking at the mirror as it's held up because they're just like, oh, I don't like that about me. Or somebody doesn't like when they see themselves reflected in it. Like, I know that probably some people are like, not a lot of people are like, oh, no, it's me, like you said. But it's like, you know, oh, my God. Like, I. I am kind of. I think this way and whatever. And they don't like seeing it. And you can't fight who you are. And it's just like, who I am is like, yeah, I'm gonna make an inappropriate joke at a funeral. I'm gonna. You know, I'm gonna talk about makeup, and I'm gonna talk about Vanderpump Rules till I'm dead. It's like, yeah, it's gotta be in there.

[A]

Well, I mean, it's kind of going back to what you said at the very beginning. Like, if people don't like your books, they probably wouldn't like you. And it's just kind of like, it is what it is.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think that's a good.

[C]

That's a hard thing for people to accept. For sure. Everyone wants to be liked, so it's like, you know, but you have to. It's.

[B]

It's a.

[C]

It all. You know, if you can accept that about your writing, you can accept it about yourself. And when you're reading something, it's like, I do think it's worth looking at being like, why don't I like her? And it's like, I bet it's more personal to you than you think.

[A]

For sure. Do you have a character that was the hardest to write and one that was the easiest to write?

[C]

Kira was just like, Kira and Killian. Like I said, like, their voices were just. It was like they were whispered to Be my. Be my me by Muses. Like, I think that that was very. Those were very easy for me. I just think that Destination Funeral was a hard, Hard thing to get right, because I wanted to Communicate because everybody's so flawed in it. And that's the point. And like the point of Destination Funeral to me is what happens when you get in your own way. And like, this is a book about a group of friends who ends up back in this amazing cool house on the beach where they spent all their teenage summers. And they have been estranged for years. And it's like, it's very reflective of the times that we're in because we've all gotten, I think right now we're actually on a tilt and we're starting to move away from it. But we got so distant from each other in the last 10 years. And then Covid, I think Covid was just a symptom of something that was already happening, which is like. And then we really had to stay home for a whole year. And it's like we were already distancing each other from each other because of social media. And you know, the book is kind of like this big allegory and fable of like, well, what happens if you get stuck, you know, in your own bullshit and you're just looking at your work and you're so obsessed with success and you're so obsessed with, you know, making. And she's not like money hungry, but she is success hungry and you know, optimization maxing in a way that like, because we all are not that, that's in the book verbatim, but that is what she's doing. She's trying to be so good and in doing so like years have slipped by where she's just like now she's not talked to these people in a decade or whatever. And you know, but like they all these characters are doing that. Like Austin got too obsessed with himself and like the things that he was and being the thing he thought he'd be in order to let in the thing that was right in front of him. And Sammy is so obsessed with finding who she ought to be that she's, you know, not being present. And Matt is perfect, basically. Matt is great. Matt does not have a problem. He's the level headed person who is actually present at all times. But they're all getting in their own way. And I think that it was hard to write that book because it was hard to look in that mirror and be like, that is where we are right now. And I don't think people love looking at it. And they want to be in a fantasy world and they want to be like, I'm reading a book because I want to get away from the real world. But it's also hard because it's. These characters have lived the same last 10 years as we have, and they are victims of it as much as we are. And the other side of now kind of exists out of time, where it's kind of like, any time. If that came out in 2006, it would make just as much sense as it would in 10 years. Destination funeral. As timeless as I want it to feel, it also feels like a book that comes out this year. Like, it feels like a book of the now. And also. But in a way that probably every generation would feel like, oh, yeah, that this is so prescient for now, because we all think that in our own generations. But, yeah. So it was hard writing people who were that lonely, honestly.

[A]

Well, it's crazy because the scene where they have to give up their phones to be in the home.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I, like, sat there for a second, and I thought about, like, putting myself in their shoes, and I was like, I don't think I could give up my phone. Yeah.

[C]

I was kind of, like, putting the

[A]

mirror up to myself and being like, maybe I do have a problem. She's freaking out. She's got to text all the people at work, making sure everything's okay. And I thought to myself, that is me. Maybe I should get rid of my phone for an entire weekend.

[C]

Yeah. Well. And I also. I hate with my whole soul, I hate the trope of Groundhog Day. I hate it.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And so why then would you write a Groundhog Day book? And it's like, well, I didn't. I wanted these people to get stuck in time. And so I've pushed back a little bit on them marketing it that way because I'm like, that would put me off. I don't want to watch. I don't want to read a Groundhog Day anything.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I hate it. I hate the laborious. Like, I know we have to go through it all over and again. And I hadn't even seen Groundhog Day when I wrote this book. And then I. I just knew I hated the trope. And I watched Groundhog Day. I'm like, yeah, I hate it. So I love Bill Murray, but. So I wanted these people to get stuck in time. Time will not move forward. And I experimented with, like, what if it just. The sun never sets and it's just the same, you know, in the day? And, like, that was cool and creepy to me, but I was like, it'll be easier to kind of communicate what's going on without that. And I just wanted these people to basically not the weekend will not release them until they release what their. And, like, that is. And since they're all stuck in the time loop, there's not, like, things keep happening every day. But that's also kind of allegorical for just like life, where it's just like the same things are going to come at you every day, and you have to deal with them differently. Like, you have to change the things around you are not going to change. And you can't count on them changing, but you can, and they have to kind of break through that. And so. Yeah, but. But writing a time loop is like, something I never thought I was going to do. Like that, but I. Getting them all stuck there, you know, I also know that people. There was a real practical problem with writing it where I'm like, okay, well, I can't have the day that repeats be the day that they arrive or everyone's arriving all the time. That's irritating. Then they have to live through the whole Saturday. And they can't just live that Saturday, like, quickly. It can't skip past that because you'll be like, what? You're skipping past them? Just spending time for the first time in a decade. You can't do that. So it's, like, pretty deep in the book when the time loop starts. And that pissed some people off. I'm like, listen, I would have loved to start on the repeat, but you can't. Like, logistically, you just can't. And you have to know what is at stake for them to be stuck, so.

[B]

Exactly. Yeah.

[C]

I don't know. I know that it's. It takes a little bit to get to that too, but it's like, hopefully worth it because.

[B]

Yeah, I felt like it makes the ending so much more satisfying.

[C]

Yeah, me too.

[A]

So, yeah, well, going into it, I didn't know that it had the repeating loop. And I was like, how's this book gonna go down? They're only together for, like, a weekend. I feel like that's gonna be really short. But I was like, oh, this makes a really interesting element to the story because I felt like when Saturday got over for. For the first time, I was like, these characters have resolved nothing. I was like, how. How is this. How. How is this gonna go down? I'm like, they're gonna resolve it in, like, nine hours tomorrow. But then it adds a really, really unique element. And I was like, oh, they're repeating. They're gonna have to get through all their crap together.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. Well, and I. I. One of my favorite lines in it That I wrote was the one that Matt said, which. Because, like, the problem when you write a magical realism. And like you said, like, I love that you don't feel like my books slip easily into a genre because they're. Because the whole, like, it's sci fi in a way, but it's just like, I don't want that. I just want it to feel real. But, like, something's off and you can't really. If you're going to do a magical element, it really has to be. It has to be something that already exists in what's going on. And like I said, it didn't initially have that magical element. I thought of it before writing it, but I didn't do it. And then I did it, I added it, I changed it. That's a lot of work. And it was like the. But the thing was, it's just like, but they do need that. Like, it is these people. What these people need would be solved by that. And that actually makes it a little bit more natural. And yeah. I mean, having them all get stuck, it's just like my favorite line was when Matt says, you know what? Since 2016, I'll believe anything. Because it's just like, I didn't want these characters to be sitting there being like, well, wait a minute for ever. You know, it's like, any sense. How can this be going on? And in the other side of now, I also have her kind of call out the. The elephant in the room. And the character says, in. Whenever I'm watching a movie that has this kind of thing, I'm always like, keep up, girl. It's a time loop or whatever. Like, they take forever to get it or they're. They trust it too quickly. And that's the problem. Every. Whenever you look at something with this little magical element, you're going to be like, oh, they just. Oh, it's just a time loop.

[A]

And you're just like, it is.

[C]

Okay. Do you really want me to spend three chapters of them being convinced it's like, no. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

But I'm just obsessed.

[C]

Well, we're.

[A]

We just have a few last questions.

[C]

Do it.

[A]

Because you've given us so much great things. It's been so fun talking to you. I feel like we could just listen to you talk all day long, actually. You're such an interesting person. I love it.

[C]

I feel like now we're like, okay, what are we getting for dinner?

[A]

Yeah, where are we going? Are you reading anything right now? Do you, like, read while you write or do you try not to do that.

[C]

What are you reading? I'm a gas in the Reading is gas in the tank. I am not that, like, I don't have any of the weird superstition stuff around, like, the. You don't write what you're writing, or you start to compare yourself to this and that. I'm like, it's whatever. I mean, sometimes I feel like an imposter when I read something fantastic that's like, similar or whatever, but whatever. And so I don't know. I'm. Right now. I. One thing that I tend to read before I go into a writing project is I'm reading, like, what's working or like, what is getting the people talking. So, like, strangers. I read Strangers by Bell Burden. I read Yesteryear. I read. But I also read. What is it? Our Perfect Storm. Carly Fortune.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

I also just read. What did I just read? The Storm by Rachel Hawkins. And I'm reading. I'm reading a book called the Breakup Retreat right now, which was sent to me by my publisher unprompted and without a note. So I was like, here's the book. Okay. And it's got something where she's a podcaster who is, like, going to investigate this, like, really cool fancy retreat that's like, something's off. And she's exactly not that, like, hardened journalist. She's really cool and she's really likable. But I just started that. And I mean, books I've read recently. Gabrielle Korn, her book just came out. Long Island Girls is fantastic. It's like, I keep saying about it, you might not remember being a lesbian in the early 2000s in Long island, but you will have to read that book. It feels so personal, even though it's like, not for me. And I know it won't be for a lot of people who read it, but they're going to connect to it. So that one's great. But, yeah, I always read a ton of. When I'm getting ready to write. It's like I. I feel like I forget how words work unless I'm reading. So I. I always have to do that. But I. You. I had something pulled up that I was. That I had just read that I wanted to. It's gone. Well, I'll comment on the video on Instagram if I remember what it is. But I'm. I'm reading a couple things, too. Like, I'm reading a Lisa Jewel book.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Okay.

[C]

You got range.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, I love that.

[C]

I basically. And I. One of my favorite genres to Read is memoirs by women I just love. I went through a huge phase where I read like Salma Hayek's and I read Sophia Benoit and Blythe Roberson and I read all these great ones and then I like was like, I will be friends with some of these people. And so now I am friends with Sophia Benoit, Blythe Roberson. I like reached out to them and I made them be my friends and be on my podcast. Blythe Roberson came on and we watched Practical Magic. So that was a fun episode. Sophia Benoit came on and we watched some stupid Hallmark movie called like, I don't even remember what it was called, but it came out like on my birthday. But yeah, I mean, I'm just very. I'm always into funny ass memoirs and I'm. Oh, I just read David Sedaris the Land and its People or whatever it's called. That's my. I mean, the second it came out, I read it. And I love thrillers and I love rom coms and I. The only thing I really don't read is romanticism. So I should probably write one

[A]

I would read. Literally should do it. Well, I think the consensus here is that we pretty much will read anything you write.

[B]

Yeah. I got a grocery list you can send us. We'll read it. So.

[C]

Excellent. I actually, I will send you the rom com that I wrote if you're interested. It's.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

I'm just. I'm gonna have to not look at it because otherwise I'll want to edit it. But as long as you know it was written five years ago and just be like grain of salt.

[B]

No, that'd be so fun.

[C]

I, yeah. Love that book and it makes me mad. It's not anymore.

[A]

I mean, I would die. Yeah. I feel like you would absolutely smash a rom com.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

The thing, it's called Mixed Signals from the Universe, which is a great freaking title.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And it's. It's basically, it's about this couple. Well, the, the tagline that I wrote for it is will they? Won't they? Should they? And it's about a girl who lands in Positano and she runs into this guy that she's been like, you know, will we, won't we? For a decade with. And they have like a week to figure out if they should be together. And the flashbacks are all named after rom coms. So it's like Met Kate. It's like, it's so fucking good. Also.

[A]

I just feel like the yearning in that's going to be top tier it is.

[C]

And it's based on a real story, which we just. Off camera or a Patreon episode or something. I'll tell you the real story.

[B]

Okay, well, we're going to end this

[A]

right now so we can hear that.

[C]

Just so you know, the. The real guy is still calling me and he's married. He has two kids. It's crazy. It's crazy.

[B]

Tea.

[C]

But anyway, published.

[A]

It needs to be published. Oh, the.

[B]

Okay. Well, you are just such a treat.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Seriously, this has been so fun for us because we just, like we said, we've just been talking about you non stop, and it's just so fun to, like, actually connect face to face, even though it is over the Internet.

[C]

But where are you guys? Are you in Colorado?

[B]

We're in Utah.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Secret lives.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

No, I know there's some reason I might. I might want to go to Utah and I can't remember why, but maybe I'll.

[A]

You let us know. Yeah, you let us know.

[C]

You feel beautiful.

[B]

It's a great place to be.

[A]

You could, you know, make your way to a swig. Make your way to a swig.

[C]

I will not be doing that. I will not. I went to. I went to the Mormon Wives, like, premiere last year.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[C]

And it was insane. And they had a swig station. And I was like, it's right here. And I still will not were there. It was crazy. I also watched Jen Affleck's husband put a pillow over her face. It was crazy. It was a crazy time. Anyway, you talk. Wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you come, let us know. Yeah.

[B]

We'll be happy to show you around.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Well, thank you so much for joining us. As a reminder for everybody listening, Destination Funeral comes out July 21st, and we can attest that it is so great.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I love that you said on this episode that you hope that if there's people who haven't read your book, that this just gives them a taste of who you are and helps them, you know, just enjoy your book even more. So. So we just appreciate you so much and we're so excited for all the things that may be coming next, and we're just obsessed with you. So thank you so much for joining. We'll tag. We'll tag all Paige's socials in our podcast description and show notes so you guys can follow along with her. But, yeah, thank you so much.

[C]

Thank you. And you guys love to come on my podcast soon.

[B]

We love nothing more. We would love nothing more.