← Imagine Heaven Podcast with John Burke
Imagine Heaven Podcast with John Burke
3 Scary Near-Death Experiences and Powerful Encounters with Jesus | Imagine Heaven by John Burke
00:57:57
In this powerful Imagine Heaven Podcast episode, John Burke shares the extraordinary stories of three men whose frightening near-death experiences led to life-changing encounters with Jesus. Discover how their lives were radically transformed,...
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- [00:01]
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- [01:04]
John Burke
Well, I'm John Burke, author of the New York Times best selling books Imagine Heaven and Imagine the God of Heaven. And today I want to do something a little different. You know, if you watched the last episode on hellish near death experiences, I took you into the various realms of evil that people experienced in their unpleasant near death experiences. But I want today to let you hear from an interview that I did with three of them about the life change they experienced afterwards. Because you know, of the incredible life change that people I've interviewed and I've interviewed, you know, close to 1500 people having near death experiences now and the heavenly experience have incredible life change when they come back. But even more so those who had hellish experiences, their lives changed radically. And I think we can learn something about life and what matters most as you listen to this interview.
- [02:06]
Interviewer
Well, today I have three men that I'm interviewing who did not keep quiet. They had hellish NDEs, but they are better people actually they would say because of them. And I think we can learn something from these three men and the way their lives have changed. So today I have with me Howard Storm, who is a former college professor. Howard, you there?
- [02:28]
Kyle Hubbard
Hello.
- [02:29]
Howard Storm
Good to be with you.
- [02:30]
Interviewer
Thanks so much for being with us. And then also Paul Ojeda is here. He's a business owner. Paul, you around?
- [02:37]
Paul Ojeda
I am. Good to be here with you, John Burke. God bless you.
- [02:42]
Interviewer
And finally, Kyle Hubbard was a college student at the time that this happened to him. Kyle, thanks for joining us.
- [02:48]
Kyle Hubbard
Thank you, John. I'm excited to be with you guys.
- [02:50]
Interviewer
Okay, so some people have heard maybe parts or bits of your stories, but some may be joining us just first time on this video. So I wanted to give you Each a chance to kind of give a version of where you were at and what happened on the day that you had this clinical death. Why don't we start with you, Paul?
- [03:13]
Paul Ojeda
Yes. So my story begins in 1997. I had died from a cocaine overdose. They put me in an ambulance. I was on the way to the hospital when I died. I always tell people I didn't see a bright light. I saw a black tunnel. And it felt like somebody dropped me in an outer darkness. As I literally started free falling into this outer darkness and racing down this tunnel, if you would. It seemed like a bottomless pit and it was going forever. I realized that I was no longer. I was no longer. I was dead and I had left this earth. And I knew that I was in eternity. I don't know how to explain it, but I knew that the place where I was was I had left this earth. And so for whatever reason, I also knew that I was going to hell. I mean, the very first thought that came to me is, paul, you're going to hell. And so as I was racing to hell, I remember that the first thing I thought was, you know, that something went wrong. I shouldn't be going this way because I'm a good person. And so I started thinking, you know, God, I never killed anybody. I didn't rob a bank. I'm not a bad guy. And immediately it started going faster. And as it went down faster, I remember that I cried out with desperation to the Lord and I said, God, help. I just remember saying, God, help. And I wasn't a religious person. I didn't go to church. I just knew I need to call out to God. And at that very moment, the spirit of the Lord comes right next to me. And he asked me a question I'll never forget. He's like, paul, what did you do with the life I've given to you? And before I could answer, John Burke, My whole life flashes right before me. Everything I did is secret and open, good and bad. And so that's how I knew that that was God. And I remember telling the Lord, I was just so saddened with the life that I saw. And so I tell God, I said, if you give me one more chance, I'll come back and I'll tell the world about your mercy, your grace, your love, and who you are. And to me, that was really, really important right there. Hell became real. You know, I heard, I've heard about it. But to experience it and to see that there is a place and if I could, there was a Pulling away from God, it felt like I was being pulled away from the light, if you would, from his presence. It was like I was going to an outer darkness. And so I think to me that was the most scariest part that I was being pulled away from, from God and his presence. And so when he gave me a second chance and I woke up in the hospital and I had the IVs and I looked and I told Lillian, because Lillian grew up in the church. That's my wife. I told her, I said, I found that Jesus you've been telling me about and from this day forward, we're going to serve Him.
- [06:23]
Interviewer
Wow. Well, I've got lots of questions to ask, but I'll let each of you go first and then I'll dive in and poke and prod. Kyle, tell us what happened the day you died.
- [06:37]
Kyle Hubbard
Awesome. So it was December 15, 2012. I was 23 years of age. I spent the last few years in active alcohol addiction where I would drink just from morning till evening. So this put me in a hospital and I was actually in the middle of a withdrawal, a medical withdrawal, medical detox where they hook you up to anti anxiety medication, things that basically keep your nervous system from going haywire. When you take away this substance, your nervous system can go haywire and you can be susceptible to heart attacks, strokes, seizures, you name it. And a lot of people with alcohol addiction actually die with the withdrawal. And so I was in this kind of life and death struggle in the Baylor, Scott and White Hospital in Lake Way, Texas, just outside of Austin. And the second night I was there, most of the details were very hazy throughout the three, four, five days I was there. But the second night I was there, all of these details that I'm about to share were just burned into my heart, burned into my memory. It was so real. It was more real than, than a lot of actual life that I live now. And so it was just heightened reality is how I can explain it. So that's why I'm able to remember these details so quickly and just so readily. So yeah, it was the second I was there. December 15, 2012. It was the middle of the night, like 2 or 3 or 4am I don't know the exact time, but I felt my heart racing the fastest I've ever felt it race before. I'm an athletic guy. I was an athletic guy before the alcohol athletic guy now. And so I know what it's like to have a heart that's racing after a sprint. But this was like double. If I could put Beats per minute. I don't know what it was, but it was super fast. And so I realized that my heart was like kind of giving its last hurrah. That was my understanding. And then the next thing that I realized is that my heart was now beating the slowest it's ever beat before. So it just time completely slowed down and it was kind of measured with even my heartbeat. And so I'm waiting for the beats of my heart and it's like my heart was beating like once every 10 seconds. And I realized, okay, my heart is now giving up. It's giving its last hurrah. Now it's giving up. And I'm waiting for the next beat of my heart. And all of a sudden my vision goes black. It was a dark hospital room. My vision instantly goes black. And I am, I'm waiting for the next beat of my heart and I don't feel it, just waiting and waiting. And so instantly the reality of my plight comes true to me, that I have died. And my understanding at that point I was completely atheist, completely away from God, didn't believe there was life after death. My understanding is that this is the end, that nothing happens after this. So I'm thinking to myself, why am I still conscious? Why am I still thinking if I've died? And in that moment, the reality of heaven, the reality of hell, the reality of an afterlife, the reality of God, the devil, the Bible, everything became instantly tangibly real to me. God was real, the devil was real, Heaven was real, Hell was real. But I knew with how I lived my life that there was no way a perfect, holy, righteous God would accept me. So I knew, just like Paul, I knew I was going to hell and I was going to a real place of torment. And so the, the next level that I experienced, John, was really scary. And it was after the level of darkness, of vision, that my vision went out. And it was this dark, dingy, kind of yellow, old style hospital room. And there were people running around trying to inject themselves with a drug, trying to get a drink. Whatever gave them peace on the earth, they were looking for that, but they couldn't find it. They were opening drawers. There was nothing in there to give them relief. And so peace was completely gone in this stage. And people were scrambling for anything just to give them some relief. And I was right there with them, looking for a drink, looking for something, but there was nothing to be had. There was no relief in that stage. And then the next level that I went down to, this is how I experienced it, because it was like scenes from a movie. The next level.
- [10:52]
Interviewer
Kyle, were you also dropping, like Paul was saying, or is this, like.
- [10:57]
Kyle Hubbard
There was a descending. So like, from this, my vision went black, and then I descended to this. This kind of dingy old hospital type of, like, setting where people are running around looking for things to. To give them relief. And then I dropped to this, this third level now, which is. It's. The details are very intense, but basically there was this grandmother figure who was sitting in front of me. Half of her face was in the light, and it was the most beautiful, beautiful thing I'd ever seen. The most peaceful thing I've ever seen. The other half of her face was in the dark, and that was the most grotesque, evil, like, flesh, flesh eaten scene I've ever seen. And so I realized when she turned that she was actually not good. I thought she was good. I thought she was there to help me at first. But when she turned, I realized that she was actually there to hurt me. And in that third level, I mean.
- [11:49]
Interviewer
I'm sorry, I have to interrupt Because I'm sure people are just thinking this is like tv. I mean, are you sure? Why would that be? Why would you see something like that?
- [11:59]
Kyle Hubbard
I have no clue. But it was the most real thing. I can see her image in my face today. And she was sitting in front of me, and I thought she was there to protect me, but like I said, as soon as she turned, it was just the most evil thing that you could imagine. And in another room, there were sounds of basically evil people that were asking if they could kill me. They said, can we kill him now? Can we kill him now? Can we kill him now? And she kept saying, not yet, not yet, not yet.
- [12:30]
Interviewer
But you were dead. Why were they. What does that mean?
- [12:34]
Kyle Hubbard
So somehow there was. I thought I had died, right? I'm in this other place, but somehow there was an actual other, other death where they would. Would come at me and kind of torment me and. And whatever they were planning on doing, it was basically to destroy me at a deeper level. And I'm in my physical body, too, in this stage. It's completely me in front of this evil grandmother figure.
- [12:57]
Interviewer
And so you can still feel things. You feel like you're yourself, you, body completely.
- [13:03]
Kyle Hubbard
I knew I was Kyle Hubbard. Senses complete. And the senses were heightened. I mean, it was the colors that I saw. There was even these. These animal figures that were kind of at the control of this grandmother figure. And they were the most brilliant, fluorescent, beautiful colors. But I realized I was like, oh, they're beautiful. But then they. When they'd look at you, they'd realize. You realize, like, these are out to actually torment me. And so they're not good. And so what seemed to be good in this third level was not good at all. She kept holding back the people who were wanting to destroy me at a deeper level. And then all of a sudden, I go to a fourth level and descend down. And this is where it gets just interesting, where it was kind of a reprieve, it was almost a chance. Even in that hellish experience, it was almost a chance to repent at that stage. And in this fourth level, there's three African American ladies with the most beautiful, joyous countenance, most beautiful, joyous face. And they were comforting me. They're saying, you're gonna make it. You're gonna make it. You're gonna be okay. And they started singing gospel music, like All About Jesus. They started singing over me and basically saying, you're gonna be okay. You're gonna be okay. But again, my heart was condemning me so much. I was like, why am I even deserving this reprieve, this peace? And so I didn't.
- [14:22]
Interviewer
So that. That wasn't a. That wasn't a looks good, but really evil.
- [14:27]
Kyle Hubbard
They were really good. It was. There was peace. It was a. Basically a chance even in that experience. I believe, looking back at it now, to say yes to their song. They were singing the truth of Jesus, the truth of God over me. And it was almost like an old gospel church service that I was in in this fourth level. And I. But I didn't. Like I said.
- [14:48]
Interviewer
And you grew up in church, right?
- [14:50]
Kyle Hubbard
I did, yeah. My dad's been a pastor for over 40 years, so I grew up every Sunday, Wednesday. I knew the songs, I knew the language, but my heart was so far from God. I was a pre med major. It was all about rational thinking, science, what you can see, what you can feel, what you can touch. But I'm in this place where I'm seeing feeling and touching supernatural things. And I have no grit for it. And again, so my heart is condemning myself. Even when these African American ladies are singing Identity over me. I didn't accept it. And so now I go down to the last level, which is me just descending really similar to Paul's story, where I'm descending down and into deeper and deeper darkness, deeper and deeper torment, deeper and deeper. Just total fear. Like the worst anxiety attack I had on earth was nothing compared to the anxiety that I was feeling in this moment. And so I Realized. Okay, and this is where I'll wrap up here and I'll let our other guests share. Howard is. The thought gets put into my heart. Since I'm going to be here forever. I knew I was going to be here forever. That was without a doubt. I'm going to be in this place of torment. I might as well get right with the person who rules this place or the entities that rule this place. So the thought comes in my heart, John, to start cursing God and cursing Jesus with every curse word. I knew because I thought, if this is what the devil believes, I knew he hates God. He hates Jesus.
- [16:17]
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Paul Ojeda
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- [16:34]
Interviewer
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- [17:11]
Kyle Hubbard
No purchase necessary VGW Group void where prohibited by law 21/ terms and conditions apply. I might as well start agreeing with him and agreeing with what he agrees with, because maybe I'll have some place of authority, or they'll give me a drink of water or a cold beer or whatever. And so I start cursing God, cursing Jesus with every curse word I knew for probably five minutes. And every time I'd say a curse word, I would fall into deeper and deeper pain. So I realized I came to the end of myself. And I was like, this isn't getting me anywhere. So now that the last moment before God rescued me, as I'm suspended in nothingness, in a deep, dark void, the only things I remember were out on the periphery of my vision were these kind of like. Like little furnaces. Like little furnaces you see in the log cabin, but they're way out in the distance. That was the only light. It was like this low glow. And I'm suspended in nothingness. And I've come to them myself. I'm not cursing God and Jesus. Anymore because I know that's. That's got me to this place. And so a word, one word comes into my heart or into my mind to say. And that's the word yes. Y E. Yes. Just one word. I didn't know what I was saying yes to, but who I was saying yes to. But that's the word that came in my heart. I knew that that's what I needed to say. And so I yelled it. I yelled the word yes into the nothingness. Yes. And as soon as I yelled yes, I was instantly back on that hospital bed in that hospital in Lakeway, Texas. But this time there's a tangible peace in the room, like a true. Like everything is ok. A true peace. And I realize I'm back to life and I'm getting my bearings. And I see a little life review of just a few scenes from my. My dad and I growing up where he was like throwing the football to me. And it was just me and my dad. It was some of the greatest moments from my childhood. And I really just feel that's the father's heart over us. That's what he wanted me to remember from my life. Remember it through the lens of mercy. And so I see that the kind of little old TV scenes of my dad and I's favorite moments. And then I'm still getting my bearings, realizing I'm back to life, but with this tangible peace in my heart. Like I'm at grandma's house and I look up to the right. It's in the middle of the night. It's a dark room. I see written on the wall in bright glowing like the color of lightning is a Bible verse. And it was John 3:16. It wasn't the actual verse written out word by word, but it was just the scripture address. And God probably knew that was the only verse I remembered from being away from him for so long. We had to memorize that every. Every vacation, Bible school and everything. So I knew that it wasn't just some mysterious thing that brought me back. The thing or the person, the God I said yes to was the God of John 3:16, which is. It's Jesus. God sent Jesus because he loved me, so that I wouldn't have to stay dead, that I would have everlasting life if I believed in him. So I was like, oh my goodness, Jesus is real. God is real. And that peace just carried with me the next day. And then we can talk about the other stuff. But yeah, the peace was so real, it was heaven on earth. Even though that was the Experience just before it was night and day, as soon as I said yes to the God of John 3:16.
- [20:29]
Interviewer
Wow. Well, you know, I'm not, I'm not saying this, I hope it's not offensive, but people probably would go, okay, that just feels ridiculous. That's got to be. You got to be making this stuff up. I mean, this is like you've seen too many horror movies. And I would say it too, except I've talked to so many of you who've said the same thing or very similar stories. Howard, tell us about yours, because at the time of yours, you were a tenured college professor. You know, one of the things that convinced me is I look at some of you guys and I'm like, what in the world would make you want to make something like this up? You had nothing to gain whatsoever and when you came back, it hurt your career. Right? But tell us what happened.
- [21:23]
Howard Storm
My experience happened June 1, 1985. And when I was a teenager I got very disillusioned with the church and religion, all that, and became an atheist. I started studying philosophy and when I went to college I got really into existentialism. All my friends at the university were atheists and we used to mock Christianity specifically, not other religions, just Christianity. And I used to try and dissuade my students who exhibited any kind of religious sentiment that that was childish and it was the same as believing in fairy tales. Something I'm not very proud of now, but that's who I was thinking that I was going to dissuade them from those ridiculous myths. And June 1, 1985, I was leading a group of students around Europe on a three week art tour and we were on the next to the last day and at 11 o'clock in the morning I had a perforation of the small stomach. My wife called the desk at the hotel and they called a doctor and he came and knew immediately what was wrong is I had perforated, which means a hole in my small stomach, said that I would die if I didn't have an operation immediately and called an ambulance and they took me to the public city hospital of Paris and was taken to emergency, seen by two doctors, said the same thing as the doctor came to the hotel, that I had to have surgery right now within the hour. So they sent me to the surgical hospital and unbeknownst to me, because it was a Saturday, there was no surgeon available to do anything for me. So it's actually never admitted by any doctor into that hospital. So every doctor I've Talked to, said that my life expectancy was only a few hours. And I've talked to a lot of doctors about this. I was never given any drugs, I wasn't given a top sheet or a pillow, nothing. I was just laid on a bed waiting for a doctor to take me on as a patient. This started at 11:00 in the morning, 8:30 that night, nurse came in and said they were unable to get a doctor and they would try and get one the next day. For hours. This pain, which had knocked me to the floor with the most acute, horrible pain I've ever experienced in my life, got bigger and worse. Instead of being just a place in the middle of my animal, now it was my entire torso. It was impossible to breathe anymore. And I was, because I was an atheist, I was terrified of dying because I knew that, you know, just end of the movie, you know, the end, nothing else. I knew that for certain. And all of my friends at the university who are all professors, they all knew that too. And I said goodbye to my wife and told her, tell my kids that I loved them and all this stuff. And very tearful, painful, saying goodbye. And I went unconscious. I awoke and I felt wonderful. I was so happy. No more pain. And my senses will heighten my sight, my hearing, my smell, my touch, everything much greater than it ever been. And I tried to get my wife to acknowledge me. She, from my point of view, acted like I wasn't there. I had a roommate in the room, a 68 year old Frenchman, and he wouldn't acknowledge me. And I also noticed that there was this piece of meat in the bed that I had been in that had very disturbing resemblance to me, but it couldn't be me.
- [25:40]
Interviewer
Did you realize you were dead?
- [25:42]
Howard Storm
I refused to acknowledge that I was dead because I felt great. How can you be dead and feel that good? Impossible. And I knew that the thing in the bed which was dead couldn't be me because I was standing there looking at it. You can't look at yourself, you know, that's not possible either. And I heard people calling me outside the room and they were saying, Howard, hurry up, come with us. So I went over and I said, I'm sick, I need a doctor, I'm supposed to have surgery. And they said, we know all about you, been waiting for you a long time. You have to come with us now. So I.
- [26:17]
Interviewer
Who were these people? I mean, what, who'd you think they were?
- [26:20]
Howard Storm
I thought they were hospital people to take me to the doctor. They said, we know all about you. You know, come with us now. So I thought, okay, walk me into my surgery. So we walked and walked and walked, and it was a very, very long journey. And it got darker and darker and darker. And the number of people which were originally maybe eight or ten became hundreds.
- [26:49]
Interviewer
Hey, let me pause just a second because I've wondered, like, what would have happened if your experience had stopped right there and you'd come back to life? Because some have experiences that are shallow, some have experiences that are deeper. In terms of these near death experiences. If you had come back to life right then, what would you have thought?
- [27:14]
Howard Storm
I wouldn't be talking about it. I would have thought that was really weird. And I wouldn't have. And I. I wouldn't have told people about it. And it certainly wouldn't have changed my life.
- [27:27]
Interviewer
So initially this is like a welcoming committee of people who are nice and they're saying, come with us, we're going to help you.
- [27:34]
Howard Storm
Yeah.
- [27:35]
Interviewer
But it didn't end that way, did it?
- [27:38]
Howard Storm
So eventually I was terrified because they were getting very ugly, saying really horrible things, what they were going to do to me and stuff. And I said, I'm not going with you any further. And they said, you've got to go further. And I refused. So they started to push and pull and I fought back. And eventually the pushing and pulling turned into hitting and kicking, and then that turned into biting and clawing and scratching and then that turned into them invading my body, which I don't like to talk about. Eventually I was just all ripped up in a fetal position. Just total pain. But the greater pain was the emotional pain of what they had done to degrade me. And I heard a voice say, pray to God. And I thought to myself, I don't pray. And voice said, pray to God. And I thought, I don't know how to pray. I can't pray. And the voice said, pray to God. And I thought, when I was a kid and went to Sunday school, we learned prayers. What were those? And I'm trying to think of things and I'm thinking of all the things I'd memorized as a kid, like the Pledge of Allegiance and Gettysburg Address and Shakespeare and stuff like that. And finally I come upon Lord is my shepherd. So I say it. And the people around me were very, very angry and saying in incredibly obscene, horrible language that there is no God, nobody could hear me, and they were going to do much worse things to me if I didn't stop that immediately. Which encouraged me to start using God and Jesus in the crudest possible Ways to eke my revenge back at them and drive them. And I drove them away from me. And then they left me there. And I had an opportunity to go over my life. And I went over my entire life and came to the conclusion that my life had been a complete failure. That I thought it was something really big and important. And I realized I was not big and important. And that my failed relationships with my parents, my sisters, my wife, my kids, my students, my colleagues was what my life really added up to. And that I had gone down the cesspool of the universe into this home place. And the people that attacked me were my. My brothers and sisters in spirit. And they were people.
- [30:14]
Interviewer
And where were you? What do you mean? They were your brothers and sisters in spirit. And where. Where were you at that point?
- [30:21]
Howard Storm
I was in a place of nothing but people who had lived their lives to gratify themselves. And now they were able to live without restraint. And the thing that made the place awful was their behavior. Since there was no restraint on their behavior. It was a world of domination and conquest and demeaning one another, which is what was in their hearts as they lived in this world. They lived to dominate and gratify their desires and to demean other people. So I realized that this is what was for me forever and ever and ever. And there was no way out. And I sank into the deepest despair and hopelessness in that place. A memory of myself as a little child in a Sunday school classroom came to me singing Jesus Loves Me. And it was very vivid. And more important with the words was I felt what I had felt as a little child. That there was this great guy, this Superman kind of figure named Jesus, who I used to pray to. And he used to get me out of jams and chase the nightmares away and things like that. And I thought I'd take a chance on him. Because my memory of believing in him was so vivid as a child. And so I called out to him. And when I did, a tiny light appeared in the darkness. And it became very bright. And out of this lightness came his hands and arms. And he reached down and touched me. And when he did, all of the gore that I could see for the first time in the light that he disappeared. And he filled me with his love. And his hands picked me up. And he put his arms around me and held me very tight against his chest. And I wept into his chest. And he took me out of that place. And as we were going towards heaven.
- [32:20]
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- [32:35]
Kyle Hubbard
Thank you for calling Amica Insurance.
- [32:37]
Paul Ojeda
Hey, I was just in an accident.
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Kyle Hubbard
Don't worry, we'll get you taken care of.
- [32:41]
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- [33:22]
Howard Storm
Really bad about my life. And I thought, I've made a terrible mistake. I don't belong here. And he spoke to me for the first time and he said, we don't make mistakes. You do belong here. And I said, how'd you know that? I didn't say that. I thought that. And he said, I know everything you've ever thought. And just for the sake of brevity, he then called over a group of angels and they gave me a life review. And we went over my life in very great detail and what I came to, which was awful experience for me, and the life review. And at the conclusion of it, I realized that I was here to love people, to be compassionate, love God and love one another. And I had utterly failed. And when that was done, Jesus said, do you have any questions? And I said, I have a million questions. And he said, ask whatever you want. And so I asked everything I could think of to ask at that time. And he answered everything clearly, patiently. And we went places and we saw things past, present and future. A lot of my questions were personal. And at the conclusion of it, I said, now I want to go to heaven. And he said, no, you got to go back to the earth and do this the way you're created, to do it in the first place. To live a life the way God created you, to live a life which is very clear, which was to love, to be a loving, kind person, loving God, loving my fellow man. And we had a big argument because I didn't want to come back. And he persuaded me that it really was the best thing for Me. So I agreed to come back. And when I came back, I was slammed back into the body, into the pain. And immediately nurse who had been in the room earlier came into the room, said a doctor has arrived at the hospital and we're going to have the surgery. So they prepped me and I had the surgery.
- [35:23]
Interviewer
Wow. I mean, again, like, if I hadn't heard so many of you guys say very similar things, I think I would again, think you've watched too many movies. But as you've said, I mean, you also experienced these people. It's kind of like the worst prison scene on earth. Right. Where people who want their will done are given free will. It's kind of like victim or victimizer or victimized or, you know, victimizer. And you were in an outer darkness as well?
- [36:02]
Kyle Hubbard
Yes.
- [36:04]
Interviewer
So I'm curious. I mean, Jesus talked about this. He talked about this, this outer darkness, he said where there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Others though, hear these hellish near death experiences and they talk about how. Well, that's because you had low vibrational energy when you left this earth. And love of course, is the highest vibrational energy, they would say. And so you go to where your vibrational energy was and there's a chance to get out of it. And I guess you guys did. But from having experienced it. What's your interpretation of this?
- [36:44]
Kyle Hubbard
Yeah, I just, I believe that God in His mercy knew what it was going to take to get my attention and reveal to my heart that he was real and that he was good and that he was love. And a lot of people need to experience that rock bottom experience in order to can kind of have that heart change and learn what life is really about, about loving God and loving people. And for me, I think that this experience exposed the reality of my heart and God in His mercy and his kindness revealed what life is really like without Him. And so I believe it was just a very real open vision where the Lord took me to places and regions in eternity where he is not there or his presence has been, has been taken away and his restraining hand or his restraint on evil is taken away. And yeah, so God in His mercy, I believe, revealed this experience to me to give me that kind of rock bottom experience to where the only option I had was to say yes to Him. And even without knowing that I was saying yes to him and him revealing it to me that it was him, it was Jesus, who I was saying yes to. And I believe ultimately it was a direct answer to my dad's prayer My dad, who's a pastor, that God would use the least severe means necessary to get the greatest amount of heart response from me as his child and ultimately God's child. And so this was the least severe means. Was God showing me this open vision of torment, the hell of the Bible, at least to a certain amount of percentage of whatever it was that I needed in order to come to the end of myself. Kind of like the prodigal son. He came to himself. Nebuchadnezzar came to himself. And they had this turn where they said, there is a God in heaven. I've blown it, but you're good. Will you give me another chance? And he did so. It was a merciful but yet painful way back to have another chance to live a life of love.
- [39:03]
Interviewer
You know, it's interesting because, Howard, you and Paul had you cried out to God. And people sometimes ask me, does that mean we get a second chance, you know, after we die? And, you know, sometimes people will quote Hebrews 9:27, People are destined to die once, then comes then, you know, then they face judgment. But it's interesting because kind of like Kyle was saying, I mean, Howard, you were. You told me you were fighting even in that outer darkness with those people, kind of still your pride of, am I really going to pray to God? Is that right?
- [39:44]
Howard Storm
Yes. The problem with the theory that you mentioned at beginning of this was we are not the masters of our own creation. We didn't create ourselves. There is a creator. We're not the source of our being. And our life is to live in relationship with the source of our being, also known as the Supreme Being, who is the master of the universe, who is the Lord of Lords, sometimes known as God. Many names, but our life is to be in relationship with that. It's a collaborative experience that we're having here. And the cool thing is, is that when you begin to realize that you can actually experience God in your life. In Christianity, we call it through the power of the Holy Spirit, which is living within us, and work with God to live a life that God created us to live in the first place. Or we can reject that spirit, we can reject that voice, we can reject the Creator and think that we are the masters of our own fate and the masters of the universe. And we can do whatever we want to do, including go to hell, get out of hell, do whatever we want to do. I believe that these experiences are a gift from God, even the negative ones. And God gives these gifts according to God's incredible knowledge of what people need at the time. And I'm thankful for the gift that I was given, although I wouldn't wish it upon anyone. And I've been leading my life trying to get people to consider having a relationship with God.
- [41:32]
Interviewer
And you said that one of the things you, you realize, well, you realize there was a journey away from God that was a long journey or a journey toward God on the other side. Talk about that a little bit.
- [41:46]
Howard Storm
I don't believe that there's anything in between those two choices. We're either moving towards God or we're moving away from God. Lots of people think that they can be indifferent to God and that's okay. You know, indifference, there's another word for indifference. It's called apathy. And I believe that apathy is really an ultimate form of hate, of contempt. When we don't care, when we have no passion, no compassion for somebody, you know, it doesn't matter whether they live or die to say, well, I don't know if there's a God, you know, that apathy towards God is a form of hatred. People that are really angry at God actually have more love of God than people that are indifferent to God, frankly. You're either moving towards God or you're moving away from God. And I've been living a Life for over 35 years now, moving, trying to move towards God every day in any way that I can. Sometimes successfully, sometimes not. But that's been my intention. And it's wonderful journey. It is the most excellent, joyful experience in my life.
- [43:05]
Interviewer
Well, and I wanted to ask you guys each about that. And part of the reason I wanted to interview you together is because of the change that actually happened when you came back. Why don't you talk about that and what you've been doing since?
- [43:21]
Paul Ojeda
So I'll jump in here. John. I want to say that when I.
- [43:27]
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Paul Ojeda
My after experience in hell, one of the things that stood out to me was, like I said in the beginning, I didn't grow up in the church. I grew up out of the church. As a matter of fact, I tell people we were drive by Christians. We drive by and do the sign of the cross. We. I grew up Catholic, and so I told people we're bad Catholics as we didn't even go to the church. But when I experienced hell, because I heard a lot about heaven, and it's rarely that I heard about hell. And when I did hear about hell, I remember that when I was partying and drugging and hanging out in the world, to me, hell was just gonna be this big old party where everybody's gonna be hanging out. And so it was gonna be a great place to go, but it was completely opposite of that. And so when I experienced hell and I recognized that I was separated and I was in an outer darkness and pulled away from everything that God is. God is love, God is light. And I was pulled away from all that. When I made that promise to the Lord and I asked him if I could come back. My number one purpose and my number one goal was that no one would ever come to this place called hell. Because to me, it was real and it existed, and it wasn't a fairy tale. And it was just. It was just as real as heaven is to me, if not even more real. And so my goal was to come back and tell the world that Jesus loved them, that he died on that cross, that he rose on the third day and sits at the right hand of the Father. He redeemed us. He made a way for us to come back. And so when I came back.
- [46:16]
Kyle Hubbard
I'm.
- [46:17]
Paul Ojeda
A master plumber, and I would go to people's houses, plumbing all day long. And so I just. Everywhere I went and God gave me an opportunity, I would share the gospel and share the love of Christ and tell people, I never said on my way back to, hey, I want to be a pastor or I want to pastor a church. That was never my goal. My goal has always been, even to this day, that if I could just pull one so out of. Out from the flames of hell and bring them back to the light, I mean, that is all my goal was. And so in 2004, we were living in Houston, Texas. I had A thriving plumbing company, and we were doing great, and everything was fine at that time. We were going to a nice big church in leadership. We would have a home group. We had anywhere from 45 to 75 people coming. And they were drug dealers, they were from the cabaret, they were dancers. They were just all kinds of sinners and people that were lost. And so we just reached back out to those people that we knew and where we had come from. And so in 2004, the Lord told me. He says, paul, do you love me? And I said, I love you. He said, well, if you love me, I want you to give up all this. Your business, your money, your house, everything. And I want you to move to Austin. I want you to start all over from scratch and open a church called Austin powerhouse. In 2004, my wife and I, we did that. We came to Austin, Texas. We opened a church. And, you know, quite honestly, I was just doing the very thing that I. The promise that I kept or I made when I was pulled out of hell. And from that day forward, I have always had open arms for the sinner. My heart bleeds, and I'm the one that goes. Leaves the 99 and goes for that one. You know, I don't think anybody's too lost for God to find them. And, you know, Hebrews 9:27 says, it's an appointed time for every man to die, and then comes judgment. You know, when I came back and I started reading scripture and I read that, I was like, well, I mean, if I died, how did I come back? But I realized that I was on my way to the place, and on the way, God gave me an opportunity to repent. And when I repented wholeheartedly and sincerely before the Lord, God gave me another chance. And so I just feel like if you're breathing, even in your last breath, even after you die, God's mercy is so rich and so great. And so I just feel like that's why we can never give up on anybody. And this part of this hell segment, I feel like right now you're talking to Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. All three of us went through the fire, and we made it out because Jesus showed up in that flames. So thank you for allowing us to share. I will say this. After my experience, I was hesitant to open my mouth, and I was kind of like, I had never read the Bible, so I didn't know there was an out of darkness. I didn't know there was a bottomless pit.
- [49:41]
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Kyle Hubbard
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Paul Ojeda
All I ever heard people talk about was heaven and a bright light. But I never heard anybody talk about hell. And so as I began to research and look and I heard other people talk about that outer darkness and being cast out, I realized what I had experienced was real. And the other people confirmed the very same thing because they had experienced the same thing as well. So today we have a beautiful church in Austin, Texas, and God has blessed us. We've seen many people get delivered from drugs, alcohol, all kinds of stuff. Many people have come to Jesus and given their life to the Lord. And so I'm happy that I didn't go to heaven. Maybe I wouldn't have been as passionate as I am. Maybe that's what the Lord knew, that that's what I needed, was a hellish experience so that I would be very compassionate for the loss. And that Lillian, I. My wife, Lillian, goes into the cabarets and ministers to women. And there we've helped drug addicts for my job, my company, I've hired people that one of my best employees has seven years of sobriety, has not drank and came out of prison. And it's turned his life around. Today he's married, he has his children. And so we've just seen God do great things through that. So I'm grateful to the experience. I wasn't grateful at the moment. It scared the hell out of me. Literally.
- [52:12]
Interviewer
Literally. Yeah.
- [52:14]
Paul Ojeda
But I'm so grateful for the experience. It's what's kept me for the last 23 years, chasing the love and passion of Jesus Christ.
- [52:23]
Interviewer
Well, and that was one of the things that I wanted to have all three of you, because Howard you came back as well, having experienced. And you told me Jesus came into that out of darkness, brighter than the sun, and these arms take you out. He sends you back. But you're a tenured college professor, and yet you made a radical life change. Why?
- [52:53]
Howard Storm
As soon as I was able, I was very, very ill and in the hospital for many months, and I came back to the United States sick and took me a long time to recover. As soon as I was barely ambulatory, I went to a church and I was like, yeah, these people are looking for what I'm looking for, relationship with Jesus, you know? And some of the people there had had a real relationship with Jesus, and I wanted more and so went back to university when I got well enough. And I loved being a professor, but I felt that I needed to help build up the church. And so I started going to seminary and I love seminary. Went for three years and got my Master of Divinity and became an ordained pastor and served churches for 30 years. The same thing that Paul said. I don't want anybody to go to hell. Even people that hate me and mock me and have one nothing to do with me. But more, even more importantly, that I want to know Jesus today. I don't want. I'm not selling fire insurance, okay? I'm not interested in that. I want people to know Jesus today because life is so much better when you have a relationship with Jesus and God. You can't even begin to. I can't compare before and after knowing the love of God.
- [54:36]
Interviewer
I think it's important, too, your experience of Jesus. Talk about that, because he rescues you out of this darkness. But what did you experience in his presence?
- [54:51]
Howard Storm
One of the things that the love is beyond description. And really the word that we use is love doesn't begin to describe what I felt in his presence, but something I like to tell people is that he really liked me. And he, by extension, he really likes all of us. He made us, you know, your nose, your ears, your hair, your thoughts. You didn't. You didn't create any of that. He did. And he loves us the way we are because he is our creator. He's the. Jesus is the creative activity of God, and he very much wants us to have the best life possible. He says in the Bible, which you never hear anybody say this. He says in the Gospel of John, may my joy be in you, and may your joy be complete. And that's what he's given me. He's given me. In French, they call it joie de vivre, joy of life. Because he fills me with his spirit. So we're not apart. People ask me, do you still see Jesus? I said, we're buddies, we're tight, you know. No, I don't see him, you know, but he's with me all the time and he's talking to me. Whether I listen or not, he's talking to me.
- [56:10]
Interviewer
Well, and again, if I were a skeptic, I would go, oh, well, okay, so you guys are all pastors because, Kyle, you came back and you became a Christian pastor as well. And some people would then just discount it all because, oh, well, you're Christian pastors. But what's intriguing is that's not where you guys were. So this is a radical. How in the world do you explain. This is like Paul on the Damascus road who's killing Christians, and then he encounters this brilliant light who turns out to be Jesus, God of light. And then he changes his whole life and writes much of the New Testament. I feel like in some ways I'm friends with three Paul's of today. Kyle, why did you know what was the journey for you coming back?
- [57:03]
Kyle Hubbard
Yeah, just getting emotional. Even hearing Paul and Howard stories, just everything they said is. I could say the same thing. They said it beautifully. And my journey from that December 15th hospital experience, about seven months later, in July, July 23rd, actually 2013, I was still struggling with identity and kind of the temptation to go even drink again. I hadn't really started reading the Bible yet. I had that crazy experience, but there was just a lot of rough edges that were getting worked out. I came in just under kind of a cloud of depression one day, came into my parents bedroom, and there was praise and worship music playing. And the words and the music just sang over me. And I felt that liquid love that is beyond description that Howard just described. That love that you can't put words to. It just filled me, filled me, filled me. And I knew that the Lord Jesus was in that room. I didn't see him, but his presence was so close, it was so tangible that that experience, just the feeling of his liquid love just running through me completely delivered me from that addiction. From that day forward and every day since, it's been that journey towards him through the power of the Holy Spirit, through yielding to him, through saying yes to him every day, just growing in that relationship. And ultimately that's what I live for. I live for the moments where it's just me and Jesus. I'm in his word, I'm praying, I'm worshiping. And from that place of receiving his love. He's given me such a great love for people to where every person I see, I know just the way that I've experienced the love of Jesus. He feels that way about them and 10,000 times more, because his love is infinite. And so the Lord has done just amazing things over the last seven, eight years since he's delivered me and given me purpose. And so my biggest kind of mission field right now is the youth, the young people. I just weep over the youth in prayer. And when I get to speak to him and just share the Bible, my heart comes alive and I see that God is using me to deliver the truth of the Bible. For me, it's all about the Bible first and foremost, because that's the absolute truth. And so he's given me entrance to have three Bible studies a week with young people and just teach them faithfully the Bible and watch God work through that. So I really want to see the next generation fall in love with Jesus first and foremost. And then when I know they do that, they're going to fall in love with their fellow man. Just vectors of change. I can just see it going through these young people. And so that's my biggest prayer every day, is that the Lord would use me to lay down my life, pour out my life, kind of like Paul talked about, poured his life like a drink offering at the end of each day, could put my head on the pillow, knowing that I loved him. I love people, that my life is successful because of that love. And I'm just so thankful. And.
- [60:02]
Interviewer
Yeah, well, and I think it is such an encouragement knowing that you guys came back from literally the worst experience you could possibly imagine, and yet God has used it for good in your lives. And that has had a ripple effect through many more lives. And I think what happened that very first Easter, as Jesus is dying on a cross, one guy mocks him, demands that he do his will and get them all down off the cross. And the other guy just says, hey, I deserve this. Jesus, when you come in your kingdom, will you remember me? And Jesus said, you'll be with me today. And you guys are evidence of that mercy, that love that God has, that what Jesus did was pay the price of justice. So that literally the last second, in the worst place, anyone can call out to him and know that we're right with him for eternity. Well, I just want to thank you guys so much for taking the time. I could talk to you forever because I know that there's so much more to talk about, but thank you for just the way you love people so well and are such a good, really representation of the God of light and love that you experienced.
- [61:28]
John Burke
Well, I hope you enjoyed that interview that I did several years ago with Howard and Paul and Kyle who have become good friends of mine. They're wonderful people and it's always a good reminder that, you know, no matter what we've been through, God is the God of second chances. God is the God who's just waiting for anyone to turn to him and cry out to Him. And he, he's there and he wants.
- [61:56]
Interviewer
To walk with us through life.
- [61:59]
John Burke
You know, just like Kyle I think said many times, we have to hit rock bottom before we turn up. But it doesn't have to be that way. We can be people who turn to God throughout the, the moments of the day in gratitude and walk with him because he, he wants to walk through life with us. And I want to encourage you, you if you are liking these podcasts, be sure to subscribe and comment and you know, ring the bell and do all that. But subscribe because I'm going to be writing a new book so I'm going to take a break. We'll show some clips on YouTube and all that. We'll keep that going. But so that you can know when season two comes out later in the fall, if you subscribe, you'll get notification to that.
- [62:44]
Kyle Hubbard
Well, thank you.
- [62:45]
John Burke
Thanks again for joining. Until the next time, be blessed.
- [62:58]
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