← Imagine Heaven Podcast with John Burke
Imagine Heaven Podcast with John Burke
NDEs Describe Ecstatic Love in Heaven
01:04:36
Countless Near Death Experiences (NDEs) describe an overwhelming, indescribable love that comes from the other side - a love so powerful that it changes people forever. In this video, you'll hear stories from people who clinically died, left their...
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- [00:00]
John Burke
You know, thousands of people who have had near death experiences encountered a love from God that was shocking. It wasn't at all what they expected in at least three ways. And what if this is the love that you have always wanted? Well, I'm John Burke, author of the New York Times best selling books Imagine Heaven and Imagine the God of Heaven. Welcome to the Imagine Heaven podcast. This light was shining over my shoulders.
- [00:35]
Ron Smotherman
I began to see a small, bright, brilliant glow that got bigger and bigger.
- [00:41]
Debbie Ali
And bigger, brighter than any light I've ever seen. Even the sun.
- [00:45]
Wayne Fowler
64.6% of near death experiencers describe an unearthly, beautiful, mystical light. They feel overwhelming love. It's sort of like a million times a million of any love they ever felt on earth. They did see the magnificence of just the light shining forth in everything, bringing life to everything.
- [01:08]
Ron Smotherman
And the light was not just something you would see.
- [01:12]
John Burke
This was really a light born out of love. This God of light, this God is personal. He knows them like no one has ever known them.
- [01:22]
Debbie Ali
He loves me so much, by the time I'm thinking of him loving me, it's old news because he even loves me more.
- [01:29]
Suzanne Seymour
Then I felt this tremendous amount of love and I knew I was in.
- [01:35]
John Burke
The presence of God. You know, today feels like the most important podcast I've done, but maybe will ever do. I've interviewed close to 1,500 people having a near death experience who on every continent, when they clinically die and as their body lies there dead, they say they were more alive than ever, in a place more real than ever, and in the presence of the love that they say consistently they had always wanted. 48% of near death experiencers experience the love of of God and consistently say this love is just astounding. They never wanted to leave God's presence. Now this may be the most important content you'll ever hear or consider. Not because I'm so smart, not because I make such great content, but because you're going to hear directly from near death experiencers I've interviewed who when they clinically died, they said what they experienced was the deepest longing of the human heart to experience the unimaginable love that your creator has uniquely for you. That's what they consistently experience. And it's a love that defies human words. Maybe you're listening to this podcast and you don't even believe God exists. Maybe you're agnostic or atheist. Excellent. And that's where I was when I started first hearing these testimonies by all these people. Having near death experience and hearing them and then starting to look into the evidence, it changed my mind. And so if that's you, I want to encourage you to ask yourself a question. Do I even want this to be true? That there truly is a God who loves me this much? Or is there something in me that if I'm honest, it just rejects the very idea? And if so, ask yourself why. You know, just. Just be honest with yourself. Because here's the thing. If you're open minded, there is plenty of evidence. Go watch episodes one through four where I laid out a lot of what convinced me. Maybe though you believe in God, maybe you've been a follower of Jesus for many years, or maybe you come from another religious background. But I want you to see that we all have misunderstandings about God. And that's why today I want to address the three big myths about God's love. I've had them, you know, even as a follower of Jesus and as I've been a pastor for the last 30 years, I find most people have them. I don't care what religious background they're coming from. So I want to show you the truth of what God's love is truly like. Myth number one that we have is that God's love is like human love. You know, you hear people say things like God loves you or God is love. Both of those are true. But our human word love is just so inadequate. You know, John, in the New Testament, one of Jesus youngest followers writes this. He said, God is love, and all who live in love live in God, and God lives in them. God is love. In other words, God is the very definition of love. God is the source of all love. That means love is at the center of the universe. Love is what this whole thing is all about. And as we've seen in other podcasts, near death experiencers confirm that. But here on Earth, we only experience God's love filtered. In other words, we experience a love that gets filtered down through broken, wounded, sinful people. So what we call love is a very dim expression of the source of true love. You know, think about it this way. In. In April 2024, we had a full eclipse of the sun that came right over my home here in Texas. And it was incredible. I mean, at noon, it went from daylight to dark. And you know, you're not supposed to look directly at a full eclipse because the sun's brilliance, even a little bit of it can burn your retina and blind you. So, you know, we had to wear these funky glasses that filter out most of the sunlight so that you could even look at at the eclipse. I looked at the specs of these glasses. Do you know they filter out all but.003% of the Sun's actual brilliance so you can still see a lot of light, but that just shows you how powerful the sun is. So, so we look at a filtered down version of the sun's light, but the light of the sun is actually 33,000 times stronger than what we can see through those filter glasses. Now here's my point. We experience God's love in a similar way here on Earth. It's filtered down through imperfect fallen humans. So it's not even close to what the source of all love feels like, which is the love of God. The true experience of the love of God is at least 33,000 times stronger than anything you felt on earth. And near death experiencers, they use words more like millions or billions of times as you'll hear. So we're talking about a love beyond words. I want you to listen to how nd ears near death experiencers struggle to find words to convey this love that defies description. And then I want you to imagine one day when you are in the presence of this love, because understanding how much God loves you can change everything about how you live today. I want you to hear from three people. A neurologist here in America, an Indian woman who is a counselor, and an aerospace engineer who's now a lawyer living in Australia. These are professional people from all over the world who clinically died and yet experienced the same love of God and came back when they were resuscitated to tell of it. Two of them went through horrific experiences, the worst evil earth can muster, but found themselves then in a love that blew away all the horrors of their deaths. Debbie Ali, who was featured in episode three, was abducted and brutalized for two weeks when her body finally gave out and she found herself in the arms of love. Dr. Ron Smotherman is a neurologist who had a psychotic man turn on him and stab him 13 times. Wayne Fowler, who lives in Australia, died of complications during exploratory surgery. And yet listen to how all three struggle for words to describe this unbelievable love.
- [09:12]
Cedric Bazagna
And God showed up as a light. And the light was triangular in shape with the apex at the top and rounded corners. And as I looked into it, it was roiling, if you know that word, roiling with energy as you would expect if you were up close to say, an atomic bomb. It was just churning this tremendous energy. Brilliant light, brilliant light. And the most striking aspect, I mean, the energy was roiling, okay? But what was roiling even more was the love that came with it. I'm sorry, I have a hard time talking about this. If you think of love as if you're in the ocean and you're on the beach, maybe, and it's nice and gentle and it's really wonderful, and you're thinking, oh, this is great. I love love. And then in the distance, you see something coming, which is a tsunami, a tsunami the size of which you didn't know exists, and that's God's love.
- [10:31]
John Burke
The comparison of gentle waves on the beach, of our love to his tsunami.
- [10:35]
Cedric Bazagna
Of love, it's hard to compare. You can say, okay, there's an ant on the ground. That's life. And here is a man, you. And that's life. But you're not the same. Whatever ails you, that love is going to fix it. And I was just in such joy. He brought with him what I guess people ordinarily call attributes, the qualities. I always call them qualities, the qualities of God. And in one single instant, all of his qualities were in my face as an exploding light. And they were so distinct at the same time, even though they all came.
- [11:21]
John Burke
Together, what were the qualities?
- [11:23]
Cedric Bazagna
Well, first of all was joy. And it's a ridiculous quality of quantity of joy that I've heard it called. Divine joy. I've never heard that word before, but maybe that's it. But it's something like, you wish you could be that happy. You wish anybody could be that. I mean, happiness is not even a comparable word, just overwhelming. Put me into ecstasy, this is all. He's still frozen in time, by the way.
- [11:59]
John Burke
Amin is frozen. Amin is still frozen, like knife raised.
- [12:03]
Cedric Bazagna
Frozen, ready to come out.
- [12:05]
John Burke
And you experience this overwhelming tsunami of love and joy.
- [12:10]
Cedric Bazagna
Yeah, exactly.
- [12:11]
John Burke
How did you experience that toward you personally?
- [12:14]
Cedric Bazagna
Well, I knew I was safe. I knew I was safe. I knew he loved me, he admired me despite all my mistakes, despite all the blind alleys I've gone down in my life. Love of money, lust, pride. He could easily hate me, but he didn't. Not one single grain of even dislike. And on top of that love and.
- [12:54]
Suzanne Seymour
Admiration, I can't even touch his toe. And everything emanated this light. His toes, his feet, his clothing, his head, his face, everything. At that point, I did not dare glance at his face, but I looked at his toes in symmetry, and I saw the light emanating and I thought, oh, that's cool. He has a really nice sandal and you know, at that point I'm thinking sandalwood. And then I realized, oh, it's not a sandal. He's bare feet like me, because I was abducted bare feet. And he was bare feet. And what I saw as a sandal was just light being pushed forward. And I felt so, I don't know, so close to him. I mean, the peace, the indescribable peace, you hear about it all the time, but for the first time I experienced it. And I always say I could have stayed there for all eternity just by that one toe and not be bored and not be tired or fed up. You know, just bask in his glory. Right.
- [14:07]
John Burke
Well, you know what's amazing is a friend of mine, Dean Braxton, who had a near death experience was at his feet and he said his feet loved me so much, I could have just stayed there forever at his feet.
- [14:20]
Suzanne Seymour
You see, it's. It's like everything about him emanates love. So it's just, whether it's the pinky toe or the big toe, it's just, it's just knowing that you're in his presence. And I mean, before I could even just settle in, just to remain there, he lifted me up to standing position and he said, you know, child, you've been through enough. You're tired, you're exhausted, you can rest now. And there were no sweeter words for me at that point than to hear that. And I mean, before I could even process, everything was happening so quickly, you know, almost like seconds. He cradled me as an adult. He cradled me just like this, like a newborn baby. And I remember just snuggling, snuggling on him, you know, just like a little baby would snuggle on, on his mom to get comfortable. He did that. He snuggled me and I slept. Man, John, that was sleep, you know, because there was safety in that sleep.
- [15:33]
Ron Smotherman
Like I say, I see down into this and I'm never at, at any point am I ever stopping, right? I'm still going towards it. I can say this though, that the speed that I was going at before, I was going faster than speed of light. But here I had slowed down, for lack of a better term. I wasn't needing to go that speed. I was where I was supposed to be. So it's just like when you drive your car, you slow down, you get off, right? So that's what I did. I'm looking into this beautiful light, this living alive light. I see the outline of this man and I know it's a man. Why I don't know yet, but. And arms outstretched towards me. Like in a. When you reach out for someone to hug them, right? It's like that.
- [16:43]
Suzanne Seymour
And.
- [16:43]
Ron Smotherman
But they're fully outstretched and welcoming. And at that moment, Pastor Burke, I entered the light. I entered, entered. I merged with the light. And at the very same moment, the light merged with me. It brings to mind the scripture that says, I am in you, and you and me. Right? When we're talking about that, how do you explain it? I don't have an explanation for it. I just know that that's what it was. And suddenly I became like a glass container that's being filled with water. I'm being filled with him. Filled up, filled up, filled up. And then it's more and more and more. And as this is happening, I am experiencing the most ecstatic love. See if I can put it in terms. It was a bliss beyond belief. It was a rapture beyond reason. It was an ecstasy beyond explanation, wrapped all up in one. It was love times a billion.
- [18:30]
John Burke
Isn't that amazing? Ecstatic love. Those are the words he used. Truly a love beyond words, though. You know, I've interviewed hundreds of people who have struggled in the same way to. To find words to express something that's inexpressible. You know, Paul writes about it in the Bible. He says in Ephesians 3:18, may you have the power to understand, as all God's people should, how wide, how long, how high, and how deep his love is. May you experience the love of Christ, though it's too great to understand fully. And that's exactly what near death experiencers are saying all around the globe. And you know, God has this love for every person. Even. Even if you don't know God, maybe you've worshiped other gods. Maybe you say, well, I've done things there's no way God could love me. But you're wrong. There is nothing that could change how much he loves you. And you know, we all want that, right? We all want to be loved fully. And yet all of our earthly loves just fall short. I mean, we all long to be deeply known and seen and valued and understood for our good and our bad, right? You know, that's when you really feel loved. When you're known for good and bad, yet you feel accepted and safe, even when someone knows your deepest, darkest secrets. But the truth is, we don't let almost anyone in like that. We don't let them know us like that because of our fear of being judged, of being rejected. And yet, did you catch what both Ron and Debbie said in God's presence, they felt safe, even admired. Ron said, even though he didn't feel very admirable, you know, Ron said, God, God sees it all. He knows it all. And he said he. He should hate us, but he loves us with an unconditional, accepting, safe love. Now, do you imagine God that way? You know, toward you personally? He created you for that love. He created you in love and for love, and that's really what he wants from you, your love. It's. It's really that simple. But the truth is we withhold our hearts. We don't trust God. We hold back from really going all out in vulnerability, giving ourselves to trust in God. And I think it's because of myth number two many times, and that is that God is unrelatable. You know, we say things in our hearts like, well, God may love me, but he doesn't get me. I mean, he's so out there, so far away, so other. He doesn't really understand, you know, my struggles or my desires or the life I live. So we kind of feel like God is unrelatable. And because we feel that way, we hold back. We don't trust. We don't let ourselves trust God. And trust is what love requires. Yet the truth is, no one gets you more than God. God is actually more intimate than a parent, a best friend, even a spouse. You know, all our earthly relationships, they're really like fingers pointing to the greater relationship we were created for. You know, throughout history, God tried to explain this through the Jewish prophets. For thousands of years, he used every relational metaphor to show us that the relationship he wants with the people he created is more intimate, personal, and relatable than any of our relationships. You know, God said to the prophet Jeremiah that this is what he wants with people. He said, I thought to myself, I would love to treat you as my own children. I wanted nothing more than to give you this beautiful land, the finest possession in the world. I looked forward to your calling me father. I wanted you to never turn from me. And God reveals that his heart is like a parent to a child. You know, he loves us. He wants to give us good things. You know, just like every parent wants good things for their children if they're a loving parent. Right? I mean, I have two grown children. My son Justin is 28. My daughter Ashley is 31. And she has my two granddaughters, five and two and a half. And they are the greatest blessings of my life. You know, the greatest blessing is that my children love God and they actually like me and Kathy, they. They like us. You know, and I can't tell you there's. There's nothing better than that. You know, every Sunday, they all come over here and. And we laugh and we enjoy each other. My daughter is actually helping produce this podcast. She's helping us with it. She's excited about it because she feels like, you know, her talents are helping others. My son and I play soccer together on a. On a men's league. You know, we're good friends. We have a great relationship, and that's what every parent wants. And God is like a parent. But think about that. What if, you know, as they grew up, you know, they obeyed us all the time, they did all the right things. You know, they proved they were good kids, and now as they are mature, they want nothing to do with us. Like, they don't. They don't like us at all. Think I'd be a happy father? Kathy would be a happy mother? No. No, because loving relationship is the whole point. You know, as. As they were growing up, we. We gave them good things. We gave them gifts and opportunities. We set rules and boundaries. We taught them. Sometimes we had to discipline them, but the whole point was loving relationship. We wanted good things for them. And God is like that, but so much better. Such a better parent than, you know, I could ever be. But he gives you and me and every person, he gives us moral law. He gives us guidance. He tells us what's right and wrong, good or evil, but not so that we can prove we're good or earn God's love. You know, it's because God loves you. And so he wants you to love and to trust him and to do what he says because it's good for you and me, but most importantly, to never turn from Him. That's what a good parent is like. But God is also like a best friend. You know, friendship is built on trust. You get to know a person by, you know, learning about them, and then you start to trust them and entrust yourself or reveal yourself more to them. And the more you spend time together logging memories, friendship grows. Well, actually, it's the same with God. Maybe you never thought about this. You know, in Ephesians 4, it says there is one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. What that means is, you know, God has always been with you. You know, whether you believed in him or not. God is the only one who's been through all of your highs and all of your lows, and he's not Judgmental toward you. He really likes you. Isn't that. Isn't that amazing to think about? He likes you, even admires you, as Ron said, because you are one of a kind, his unique creation. And no one else understands you like God does. You don't even understand yourself as much as God does. And, you know, God claimed to enter into our humanity in a form we could relate to. That's what he was doing through Jesus, to show us that God gets us because he's experienced the temptations and the hardships and the slander and the gossip and the. The betrayal, the torture. And even on the cross, when Jesus was hanging on the cross, it wasn't crucifixion that killed him. It was when he experienced every wrong, every sin, every act of hatred and murder and violence and betrayal and lying and stealing and adultery, all of it. Jesus felt it. All of mine, all of yours, and all of every person throughout history. And it crushed his heart. It was a heart attack that killed Jesus. How can we think he doesn't understand us? He understands us more than we could ever even understand ourselves. And yet he wants to be our friend. And when you trust God, it builds friendship. You know, it says this. Abraham put his trust in God and he became right with God, and he was called the friend of God. See, trust is the currency of friendship. Trust develops friendship, even with God. And that's why Jesus said to his disciples his last night on earth in John 15, he said, you are my friends if you do what I command. I no longer call you slaves, because a master doesn't confide in his slaves. But now you are my friends, since I've told you everything the Father told me. I mean, isn't this mind blowing? God doesn't just love you. He likes you. He wants to be your friend. And it's real. I mean, I've experienced it, you know, for about the past 30 years, I have journaled, chronicled, written down my relationship with God, my prayers, my struggles, my questions. And even when I saw God answer. I mean, I've seen God actually answer and interact and guide me now. Caveat. I have never heard an audible voice from God. But as I've talked in some of the other podcasts, and we'll talk as well in the future, I have had promptings in my thoughts, just like the communication of heaven that we talked about in the last episode. Write these thoughts directly into my thoughts, into my heart, and when they're in line with what I think God might want me to do, and I act on Them. I'm blown away how many times I look back and I go, oh, my gosh, that was God speaking to me in my thoughts and guiding me. And that's the way he will guide you as well. You know, if you don't yet feel like God is truly your friend, try that for a year. Try really paying attention and saying, God, I'm willing to do your will. And when you have a prompting thought that you think is in line with love and God's, you know, what God has laid out in scripture, do it. And then you will start to look back and see, oh, my gosh, he's real. And he really is my best friend. So he's not only, though, as intimate as a good friend and a good parent. His intimacy rivals that even of a lover or a spouse. And I know, I know I'm probably going to get comments. Go ahead, comment. But I want you to think about this, all right? It sounds bizarre, but it's actually not. Again, all our relationships are from God. He thought it all up, but they're all fingers pointing toward an even greater love and even greater intimacy. You know, in episode five, we talked about the relationships of heaven and how they go even deeper connected in God's love. But throughout the Bible, throughout the history of the Jewish people, God called himself like a groom to his bride. He used this analogy many times in Scripture with the prophet Jeremiah, you know, where first he says he wanted to be a father and that they would never turn from him. And then look what he says. He says, but you've been unfaithful to me. You've been like a faithless wife who leaves her husband. So he switches the analogy. He says, I feel like a jilted lover when, when, when you are unfaithful to me. For they have chosen crooked paths and have forgotten the Lord, their God. And then he pleads, he switches back. My wayward children says, the Lord, just come back to me and I will heal your wayward hearts. You know, do you hear the, the heart of God, the, the depth of intimacy he wants. You know, there's an entire book of the Bible called Hosea where God has a prophet named Hosea act out his love for people. Hosea takes a wife who was a prostitute, but he falls madly in love with her. And for a while she loves him and, and she's faithful to him. And then he finds out she's been cheating on him. She keeps going back to these abusive men who, who, you know, take advantage of her and abuse her. And then Hosea goes and rescues her and it's breaking his heart, but she comes back and she loves him again. And then she goes and cheats on him again. And each time in the book, God says to Hosea, take her back and love her and forgive her, for that is how I am with my unfaithful people. Wow. I mean, what amazing love that God has for you and me. It's a crazy, intimate love God has for you. Do you realize that? I want you to listen to a couple more people try to describe the, the relational metaphors, the relational analogies, you know. Suzanne Seymour was 12 years old when she and her family went skiing in the Poconos Mountains up in round upper state New York. And it was at a very old style tow rope kind of ski lift that pulled them up the mountain. This is many, many years ago. Something went terribly wrong that day. Suzanne is now a nurse. But listen as she describes the relationship she experienced that day in her near death experience. And then listen as Wayne Fowler, the lawyer from Australia, describes how this relationship with God is deeper than all other relationships.
- [33:40]
Humphrey
One time, my family, my parents and grandparents were at the bottom of the hill. My scarf, which my mother had me, I tied it through once and she had me tie it through twice like a knot. So, and I remember I had a terrible instinct about not wanting to do that. And I stood up to her about it and I fought her about not tying it twice, but she insisted, so I did. And so the fringe got caught in this rope that spun spirally. And when you held it, my brother and I, my brother said if you didn't catch it right away, it would rip right through your gloves. It was just way too fast.
- [34:20]
John Burke
And this is so, this is like a tow rope that you're just grabbing onto, picking up from the ground. Yeah, it's not going off the ground. It's just you as you ski, it's pulling you up.
- [34:33]
Humphrey
Right. So you're grabbing this rope. And my, my brother said, like, it was because it wasn't regulated or anything, it just ripped through his gloves and it was obnoxiously fast. So we, we grabbed onto it and we didn't have anything to compare it to because we weren't skiers. Okay, now we know this, but back then we didn't know. So when my scarf caught around it and it was spinning spirally, I'm a person that will fight to the end to try to get free. I wasn't, you know, panicked. I just was really trying to work, get my hands getting it free. But I couldn't, so.
- [35:17]
John Burke
So you grabbed on and it was. The rope was kind of twisting as it pulled.
- [35:22]
Humphrey
As it twisted up your scarf. Yeah. As it goes up, it twists.
- [35:27]
John Burke
And it wrapped your scarf up really quickly. That's in a knot. And so now it's pulling you.
- [35:33]
Humphrey
Right now it's hanging me. So by my neck. And as far as I know, a hanging is a really good execution. It works every time. This is really fun for the engineers. My head must have hit. I don't remember my head hitting. I don't know if I guess I died right before where my neck had to break. And so it. All I know is that my grandpa and my dad, everyone, they saw my scarf. It was a long brown and white stripe. They saw it flying perfectly straight without any holes or tears. It went through the bottom hole and came out the top hole. So it went through all those gears and it came out perfectly straight. And in that moment, my grandfather knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that we have a God, that we have a supernatural. It was unexplainable. Unexplainable.
- [36:41]
John Burke
What do you mean it came out?
- [36:43]
Humphrey
The scarf flew out, like, perfectly straight, hanging from the rope with all the fringe. And there was no. Because it went in. And so it would have had to get through all those gears. It was knotted around my neck. How did it fly? Perfectly straight.
- [37:01]
John Burke
Did the scarf break?
- [37:02]
Humphrey
No, the scarf never broke because it came somehow. Miraculous. Okay, so I'm laying there, the scarf went through, and it came out flying.
- [37:17]
John Burke
Perfectly straight, as if something had untied it.
- [37:21]
Humphrey
As if it was untied and unscathed from the machinery. So we walked it. And with walking it on a day in spring with no snow, up to your knees. It took us 45 minutes from bottom to top.
- [37:41]
John Burke
Oh, my goodness.
- [37:43]
Humphrey
Yeah, that's high. Yeah.
- [37:46]
John Burke
So you were dragged all the way.
- [37:48]
Humphrey
Up, all the way up, all the way up. And look at me now. Hello. You gotta tell us God's handiwork.
- [38:00]
John Burke
So what happened? What happened in that moment?
- [38:03]
Humphrey
Okay. So then I'm laying in the snow, and on the side of me, there's woods and birch trees and pine trees. And I'm seeing the birch and pine trees because I'm attracted to this being that's surrounded in light. And I thought it was my dad because it felt loving and it felt like it was going to help me and rescue me and come and get me. And I'm looking over there and I said, that might be my dad. I'm thinking, and it's coming closer Very quickly. And I felt there was a sense of urgency. So he came very quickly. And as soon as he came close, he put his hands out and he just looked at me, and through his eyes, he told me. He just tells you who he is. And he's like, I'm Jesus. And I thought, well, this is. You know, I've just felt all this love and light. And I'm thinking, I don't really know Jesus, but I thought, okay, you know, he felt so loving. And next to him were these two angels that I didn't know to call angels because they. They were male, and they had, like, armor on and they had wings that were. They looked really practical, like they could move, you know, and they. And then they had these, like, boots on that I'd never seen before. He put out his hands. Everything was going to be all right. All this information now, I write down. I wrote it down because the only way I could describe it is if you've never met Jesus, you'll know everything you've ever wanted to know about him in a minute. He tells you everything about himself instantly. There's no question. And he lets you. It's like he lets your whole body know that he knows everything about you. Everything. And just feeling that, understood and that my mind, my heart, everything felt so understood. It felt like he knew my whole life in a second. So there was no fear, because we had this instant, like, I've known you all my life. And I felt I knew him all my life. And. And so he was my dad. And so I wasn't wrong when I thought, it's my dad. And so he picked me up and, you know, scooped me up like this. And the two angels, I don't know, they were right there. And so the three of us were in. I was in a state of home and bliss and happy. It was joy, like when I. There's so much joy, John, just joy. Like this presence and these angels. I never felt more loved or more joy.
- [41:04]
John Burke
Were you aware of where you were going or how you were going, or.
- [41:09]
Humphrey
It was a quick. It was a quick flight. So I got there, and it wasn't like an interruption. Like, you're in his arms. You're floating there, and then you stop. And then there was this big tree. I remember that because that was the first time I thought that a tree was. I didn't know the importance of it, but we sat under it, and then I sat on his lap. And then came this. You know, all these explanations which are really kind of telepathically he lets you know every question you want answered. So all my little questions that were spinning up here, he was answering them with this tremendous peace in his eyes. So when you looked in his eyes, you knew the answers. It was like. And he almost knew your questions before you did. And so I knew he was very superior to me in that way. I thought, he knows everything. And then this trust is what happens.
- [42:19]
John Burke
And what kind of things were you hearing him say, Humphrey?
- [42:23]
Humphrey
The way he communicates, it's not like words that are. But to sum it up, it's like, everything will be all right. Every. You know, and this trust. And when he tells you everything, everything will be all right. And it's not like we say it. It's with tremendous trust because, you know, he's superior and you know he knows you, and so, you know he knows everything and everybody. And so in an instant, you were able. You're able to accept that instantly because of. Because of the magnitude of. Of love. And I think that love that he that comes through him is. Carries wisdom and carries trust and carries knowledge. Lot of not. He's. So, you know, there's nothing that he's not going to know about you. Nothing. Like, right down to your DNA, he knows. Your. Your whole being knows that. Like the cells in your blood know that. Like, you're. It's so real. I learned the Bible backwards, so I still don't know it forward. I learned it backwards. And I.
- [43:38]
John Burke
What do you mean?
- [43:39]
Humphrey
Like, my experience was my Bible. And so in so many ways, for at a young age, and then as I grew, I would hear stories from the Bible and I would be like, oh, that's. That's. That's what that meant. Or that's what that was. Or. So it all connected.
- [44:02]
John Burke
Yeah, it.
- [44:04]
Humphrey
So for me, the Bible was alive and well. Like, I. I don't have. I read. When I hear. Or any type of reading from the Bible, I get it. I'm like, yep, yep, yep. Because there's.
- [44:18]
John Burke
It fits.
- [44:19]
Humphrey
It fits. It always fits. And as much as I would try. Anyone would try to disprove it, I never could. I could never. It always fits. I'm like, that fits. The only thing that wouldn't fit is the delivery sometimes of, I guess, our human understanding. And so I describe it to my husband. Like, when men watch a football game, you're going to get, like, three or four or five commentaries on the same game. You know what I mean? They're always going to have a different point of view. Not that they're wrong, but that's how I hear different.
- [45:00]
John Burke
Someone said it to me who had had a near death experience. Like imagine me trying to describe what it's like to fall in love.
- [45:10]
Humphrey
Right.
- [45:11]
John Burke
Actually falling in love.
- [45:13]
Humphrey
Right. That's a good thing.
- [45:15]
John Burke
The words just can't. Until you experience the words are not gonna quite get it.
- [45:21]
Humphrey
And he is love Jesus, because he comes in love. And that's the mystery of God, is love. Because love is our greatest mystery and our greatest power and yet we can't describe it or explain it. And so it's really kind of comical how, you know, how we stumble around to like try to trust it or grab ahold of it or bottle it up. Yeah. So anyway, that was. Sure.
- [45:51]
John Burke
So at this age, at 12 and not knowing really much about Jesus, did you have a sense of who this was?
- [46:01]
Humphrey
Yeah, I knew he was God. I knew instantly that Jesus was. That he was the one true God. Because everything about him was truth and everything about him was bigger than anything I could ever describe. But yet he comes so humble.
- [46:22]
Ron Smotherman
If I could quantify, and I can't if I could quantify the greatest love that I had ever experienced or anyone could ever experience in this earthly body. Of course, English, our word love just fails so badly because there are so many different types of it. But think about every loving relationship you have ever had. Combine them all together. And I mean wife, friend, brother, sister, father, mother, all of them, everything. Combine them all together and then blow them exponentially beyond your ability to reason them billions of times. All of that, that's what I was experiencing.
- [47:24]
John Burke
And are you still feeling fully yourself?
- [47:28]
Ron Smotherman
Yes.
- [47:29]
John Burke
Like you do right now?
- [47:31]
Ron Smotherman
Yes.
- [47:32]
John Burke
But full of this ecstatic love.
- [47:36]
Ron Smotherman
Yes. And it's.
- [47:39]
John Burke
And is there communication going on at the same time?
- [47:42]
Ron Smotherman
That's what happens here. This is what I'm just about to say. Because as I'm being filled up, not, not yet. I'm being filled up, filled up. And it's like this balloon. I can actually feel the pressure of it. And I get to the point where I feel like I'm going to explode from the power of it that I can't contain anymore. And just as I have that thought, I can feel it start. Just like the speed of light, things start to subside. A level. And then the realization that that's what was happening. And I said, no, no, give me all you got. And then I heard him chuckle. He thought that was cute. He thought that was. And, and, and I thought. And he starts filling me more and more until. But he knows how much I could take and so he did as much of that and as he's doing this, then I start having this knowledge because I'm filled with him and I know who this him is. This is Jesus.
- [49:12]
John Burke
And you knew it intuitively?
- [49:14]
Ron Smotherman
I knew it with a level of knowledge that is a knowing beyond knowing. It is an unquestionable truth. I knew this was Jesus. I knew this was God. I knew he was the way, the truth and the life. I knew it in a way that is beyond us reading it now. I can say that because I didn't even know that scripture. Remember, I hadn't read the Bible. So that's what I'm saying. I knew this was the way, the truth and the life. And I understood what that meant.
- [49:56]
John Burke
I mean, isn't that just mind blowing that God loves you that much? I mean, I know I feel that way, but that is how wonderful God is. And you know, remember, both Wayne and Suzanne really knew nothing about Jesus and hadn't really read the Bible. I mean, Wayne had just come to faith. Suzanne was just a 12 year old girl. Her parents didn't even believe until that ski accident when, you know, her scarf was tied in a knot and should have gone through the gears and yet came down, came back down the mountain on the tow rope hanging perfectly. And she came back. Even though the X rays showed a broken neck, she was healed. Amazing. But do you see how relatable God is? He gets you like a, like a best friend. He's like a wonderful parent, but also with the intimate ecstatic oneness of love. Like, like Wayne talked about, you know, others did too. Cedric Bazagna described it to me as scary intimate. You know, today Cedric is actually a Catholic Passionist priest. But when he had his near death experience, he was college age, he had stopped going to the Catholic Church, turned away from God. He was just partying. He got his girlfriend pregnant, they had an abortion. And then for the next six months, just grief and guilt overwhelmed him until finally he turned back to God for forgiveness. And then he has his near death experience. And in it he was shocked at how he was treated. Not at all as he expected. Listen to what he said. The interesting thing about this is that I didn't want to go through the tunnel. I thought, oh no. Because I knew I was not ready to come before God. Before I knew it, I was at the end of the tunnel and suddenly I found myself in the presence of God, standing before the throne. The only way to describe it was a living luminescent light that embraced me. God's Love for me was intensely personal. I sensed that I was known and loved even before I was born into this world. His love was unconditional. God's care and affection for me were not conditioned on my goodness. Rather, there was such a powerful, pulsating goodness radiating from God that it was overwhelming. God's love is an energetic passion. God's love is affectionate. It's very intimate and personal. I realized that not only did God love me, he was in love with me. What I mean is that he knew me through and through and still had his heart set upon me. As God communicated with me telepathically, I remember being amazed at how vulnerable and intimate God wanted to be. I remember thinking, he loves me so much, it's scary. And scary is a strange adjective to use about love, I know, but I was overwhelmed with the intensity and intimacy of God's love. God is obsessed with us. Do you realize that God feels that way about you? He's obsessed with you. So let me ask you, why wouldn't you seek to grow closer to a God like that? What would possibly hold you back from. From wanting to get closer to someone who knows you, wants good things for you, loves you that much, and all he really wants is. Is for you to do life with Him. You know, just talking through the moments of your day and listening for those prompting thoughts of guidance and then doing those things that are in line with his will so that you see him at work in your life. Why wouldn't we do that? But I think that brings up myth number three that causes us to hold back. And that's that we tend to think, well, I'm just one of billions. You know, I've heard people say it over the years, I don't bother God with my little concerns. That's why I don't pray. I mean, God has much bigger fish to fry, you know. Or they'll say things like, well, God couldn't care about me and my little problems. I mean, there are 8 billion people on the planet. How could he possibly attend to that many of us? But you have to remember, God is not at all like humans. We are bound by three dimensions of space. But God is not bound by space. We're bound by one dimension of time. But God has many dimensions of time through which he can act. And God is great enough to always be present with you and care about every little thing in your life. And he knows how it all fits and it all matters. And yet he's so great. He can do that for all 8 billion of us. What you don't realize the truth is that you're actually God's favorite child. Which, I know it sounds absurd. I wouldn't believe it myself if I hadn't heard so many near death experiencers say that's exactly, exactly how they felt.
- [55:15]
Debbie Ali
I can remember looking at him like I could look directly through the light and exactly see him as he is. And that really got me to be able to do that now. That light coming off of him, I remember it wrapping itself around me. Someone asked me one time, was he hugging you? I said, everything about him was hugging me. And as I go back to that point that I was talking about how I was spanning and everything about him was showing love toward me. I looked into his eyes. And when I looked into his eyes, John, what did I see? I saw the love he has for me. Like it would go on and on and on. I'm an eternal being. I will live forever. But it looked like his love would outlast me. That's what it seemed like to me. You know, it was like. And this is what really got me was the moment he looked at me, he loved me. And the next moment he loved me more. And the next moment he loved me more. I didn't know that. His love for me is growing every moment, you know, and every moment I looked at him, he loved me more. All of a sudden, I started thinking about others. I thought about my wife at the time, and I saw the love for her, like he only loved her. I thought about my mom at the time, and I saw the love that he had for her, like he only loved her. Anybody I thought of in the switch of my thinking, all of a sudden, I saw the love for them, like he only loved them. And I made a statement. You really do want everybody here.
- [56:37]
Wayne Fowler
Browns and greens and blues. And those were the colors of his eyes.
- [56:43]
John Burke
And how did you feel when he was looking into your eyes?
- [56:52]
Debbie Ali
My kid?
- [56:57]
Wayne Fowler
Everything I would say would be cliche. I felt.
- [57:03]
Debbie Ali
Home.
- [57:04]
Wayne Fowler
He was my home.
- [57:07]
John Burke
He was.
- [57:11]
Wayne Fowler
He was my father, my friend. He was everything I'd ever hoped for, everything I could have dreamed. But beyond that, he loved me with a consummate love. Because he was love. And I had never. I had never known the person of love. I had known the emotion of love. I had known all of these other facets of love. But being in the presence of the person of love was entirely different. And everything I felt like. I felt like I was the most special person. I felt like I was the only person in the world I knew Jesus cared for everyone. But that's how he looked at me. That's how he treated me, like I was the only one. All of this, the world, the millions that he had charge over, watching over. And I felt like I was the only one. I was the only one. I was the most special person in the world. And that's how he viewed me. And he was restoring what I had lost in my life. And he was revealing to me something that I never understood. And that he was with me even when I was not with him. And even when I was an agnostic and had denied him that he still was watching over me, waiting for me to come to him as I am.
- [58:38]
Ron Smotherman
Just filled up with God himself. I have this knowledge that this is the savior of the world. It's not questionable. We were talking about these other. Other people that may have not had a belief in. In God or Jesus or whatever. They know it's Jesus, right? When they. You cannot deny it. It is so powerfully undeniable.
- [59:15]
John Burke
Yeah.
- [59:16]
Ron Smotherman
And. But it was deeper than that for me. I knew that everything about him was also true. And he actually did die on a cross. It's very difficult for me to express this particular part without getting emotional about it, so I apologize in advance. I knew that if I was the only person in all of creation that ever would have said yes to him, he would have gone to that cross and died just for me. Just for me. Just for me. And I knew the truth of that. I knew the truth of it. I had never, never contemplated me with this filthy as I felt that I was as unworthy as I felt that I was. And yet I knew that was so undeniably true, and this was also undeniably true, that he would do that for you and everybody else. There is not a single person that he has created that he wouldn't have done that for. And this. This is another part of that. He wants so badly to have a personal relationship with us. He wants a relationship that's closer than we can have with a loving spouse. He wants to do that. Not only does he want to, he can.
- [61:15]
John Burke
You know, truly, it is an amazing love, a love that would do that just for you. That if you were the only one, he would take the bullet. He would lay down his life so that you could be forgiven of all your wrongs by just simply turning back and saying, God, I want your forgiveness and I want your love and your guidance. And that is why this is called good news for all people of all nations. You know, we don't have to get our karma right, prove we're good enough, you know, to get off the cycle of Samsara. We don't have to perfectly keep the Ten Commandments or, you know, the Eightfold Path of Buddhism or the five Pillars of Islam. The truth is, no one can perfectly do all the right things and yet God in His love forgives us so that every human heart that turns back to him and wants the forgiveness that he paid for in Christ can have it freely. Have you told him that that's all he wants? Is your heart turned back? And then daily learning to walk in his love, realizing how he feels about you, and letting that love channel through you to others. Just as we talked about in the last episode on relationships, I want to end this podcast in a different kind of way. I want to read to you my favorite chapter part of it from the New Testament that summarizes this love we've been talking about. So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. What should we say about such wonderful things as these? If God is for us, who can ever be against us? Since he did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all, won't he also give us everything else? Can anything ever separate us from Christ's love? Does it mean he no longer loves us if we have trouble or calamity, or are persecuted or hungry or destitute or in danger or threatened with death? No. Despite all these things, overwhelming victory is ours through Christ who loved us. And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God's love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today or our worries about tomorrow. Not even the powers of hell can separate us from God's love. That's the great love he has for you. You are his unique, beloved child. Well, I hope you've enjoyed this podcast. If you have, I hope you'll share it with others who need to know that God feels the same way about them. Subscribe like it and be sure to give me your comments down below, give me your thoughts and suggestions for future episodes, and I'm so grateful for you guys. Thanks for all your encouragement you've been leaving in the comments, and until next time, be blessed.
- [64:26]
Ron Smotherman
Sa.