Raised Strict Mennonite, Burned by Religion…Then His NDE Changed Everything

Summary

Imagine Heaven Podcast with John Burke
Episode: Raised Strict Mennonite, Burned by Religion…Then His NDE Changed Everything
Guest: JoJo Morris
Date: March 11, 2026

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Overview

In this deeply personal and illuminating episode, John Burke welcomes JoJo Morris, who shares his journey from a strict, rule-bound Mennonite upbringing through spiritual burnout and ultimately, a near-death experience (NDE) that radically transformed his understanding of God, faith, and himself. The episode explores themes of religious legalism vs. relationship with God, the emotional and psychological costs of oppressive religion, and what an experience of "heaven" revealed about God's true nature and purpose for our lives.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. JoJo’s Mennonite Roots and Early Years

• Family Background & Entry into Mennonite Life (03:00–08:30)

  • JoJo describes being raised in a typical American family before his parents pursued “deeper truth,” which led them to a strict Mennonite sect.
  • Life shifted dramatically: “My mom sewing her own clothes. We started growing our own food. My parents threw their jewelry away... we stopped visiting with my grandparents” (04:20, JoJo Morris).
  • The community was marked by detailed rules, from clothing to social interactions; legalism and fear became core experiences.

• Religious Oppression and Legalism (07:49–09:20)

  • JoJo recounts how strict discipline was central, and the culture was “intensely controlling... rulemaking was the majority of the conversations” (08:33, JoJo Morris).
  • Strict separation of men and women, hours-long services, and obsession with external rules shaped his view of God as harsh and distant.

Memorable Quote:
"It was not funny, it was more ironic: we actually talked about the Pharisees and how not to be like them. Yet we were the Pharisees of our day." (09:25, JoJo Morris)

2. Psychological Impact: Angst, Shame, and Alienation

• Impact of Legalism on Child Development (05:33–12:00)

  • JoJo describes a childhood of anxiety, anger, and internalized fear, leading to psychosomatic issues like gut problems and bedwetting.
  • Emotional needs and personal struggles were overlooked in favor of strict adherence to religious norms.

• First Spiritual Encounter: Salvation Under Pressure (12:47–18:50)

  • “I gave my life to God… because I didn’t want to go to hell. So I technically got fire insurance.” (13:30, JoJo Morris)
  • Peer pressure and fear characterized his baptism and involvement in church leadership roles despite lack of inner peace.

3. Escalating Oppression: Hutterite Community & Family Strife

• Switch to Hutterites & Further Breakdown (21:14–24:56)
  • Family sought deeper community and moved to even stricter Hutterite colony in Minnesota.
  • JoJo describes the environment as “95% self-sustaining," even stricter, and ultimately abusive, especially from his mother.
  • Creative outlets like music were strictly limited by religious rules.

4. The Crisis: Emotional Collapse Preceding NDE

• Creative Awakening & Religious Suppression (24:54–32:19)
  • JoJo felt a spiritual awakening through music, but elders and his own mother saw it as rebellion:

    “I'd get in trouble for writing this music... one of the elders said, 'We'd rather you sing country music than this new devil worship music you're creating.'” (31:27, JoJo Morris)

  • Increasing depression, anxiety, and a sense of hopelessness culminated in JoJo crying out for God to give a reason to keep living.

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JoJo’s Near-Death Experience

NDE Begins (36:12–38:09)

• While taking a nap, JoJo hears his neck snap and finds himself outside his body, panicking as he realizes he's dead and cannot interact with the physical world.
• Heightened senses, out-of-body experiences, and desperate attempts to seek help—“I ran straight through the wall and started yelling for help.” (37:12, JoJo Morris)

Judgment and Two Life Reviews

First Review – The Lens of Legalistic Judgment (39:02–48:21)

• An angel appears: “It’s time for judgment.”
• JoJo is transported through “levels of heaven,” witnessing a spiritual battle on earth, and eventually finds himself in a throne room before God.
• God is seen “drinking out of a coffee mug,” a detail that triggers JoJo’s internal judgment:

  “How could you be sitting on your rear end while the earth burns?” (43:33, JoJo Morris)

• His life plays out before all as a series of failures and shameful episodes, culminating in despair.

Second Review – God’s Loving Perspective (48:21–55:10)

• Instead of judgment, God says:

  “JoJo, I’ve brought you here to show you who I truly am.”

• JoJo then relives his life filtered through God’s loving presence—seeing joy, good deeds, and moments of God’s protection and parental love.
• The experience is accompanied by stunning, living music and angelic celebration:

  “Angels were shooting off these giant rocket launchers... praising God, singing, ‘Holy is the Lamb that was slain.’” (50:28, JoJo Morris)

• JoJo feels all shame, anger, and pain “melting away," realizing "the only way the enemy could hurt [God] was to hurt me…" (54:00, JoJo Morris)

Music and Eternal Purpose (55:10–69:18)

• God reveals to JoJo the music of heaven, multidimensional and unlike any earthly music—described as “Lauren Daigle meets Coldplay meets Lecrae meets Jamie Grace… three bands playing at once, yet it all made sense.” (55:10, JoJo Morris)
• JoJo is told he will continue learning, composing, and growing—music is not suppressed, but celebrated.
• Lessons involve understanding words (like “righteous”) in their true depth, and engaging in creative, joyful, purpose-filled activity in heaven.

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Post-NDE: Return and Real-Life Transformation

• Return to Life (69:18–76:31)

  • JoJo awakes “after 29 minutes,” devastated to be back but healed of old ailments: bedwetting gone, gut issues healed, depression lifted.
  • He found the courage to leave the colony, rebuild his life, and eventually reconcile with his parents.

• Redemption and Ongoing Healing (76:31–78:44)

  • God’s love replaced the fear and self-loathing JoJo had learned through religious legalism:

    “I don’t hate my parents anymore. I love them. We have a really great relationship now. It’s been redeemed.” (77:42, JoJo Morris)

  • Message of hope to others: God is not the angry taskmaster JoJo was taught, but a loving Father eager to heal and set free.

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John Burke’s Reflections: Religion vs. Relationship

The Dangers of Legalistic Religion (78:44–88:16)

• John observes how JoJo’s NDE is a visual parable: first, experiencing self-imposed religious judgment, then God’s grace and acceptance.

  “It appears almost like God set him up, right? Because He’s holding a coffee mug, just to draw out JoJo's judgmental spirit—but not to condemn him, to set him free.” (82:39, John Burke)

Key Scriptural Insights: Galatians

• Legalism is not God’s intention; Jesus came “to set us free from religious rules and regulations.”
• “Don’t reject Jesus because you’ve been burned by religious people. He was too.” (87:42, John Burke)
• The “fruit of the Spirit” (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, etc.) is evidence of relationship with God, not adherence to oppressive religious law.

The Role of Religion

• Religion and moral law can teach right from wrong but cannot change the heart.
• Church is meant to be a “community of people learning how to better love God so that we better love each other… not a set of rules or behaviors.”

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On legalism and spiritual hunger:

  “It wasn’t, ‘How can we get our young people to be on fire for Jesus?’ Those weren’t the majority of conversations. The majority was rulemaking.” (08:33, JoJo Morris)

• On the root of creative suppression:

  “She [my mom] started seeing that music was influencing a revival… when young people started really showing up on a more spiritual level, it looked out of control through the eyes of my parents.” (31:03, JoJo Morris)

• On God’s surprising presence:

  “He was drinking out of a coffee mug... my religious spirit leapt out like a Pharisee—‘How could you be sitting on your rear end while the earth burns?’” (43:33, JoJo Morris)

• The pivot point:

  “JoJo, I’ve brought you here to show you who I truly am.” (48:45, JoJo Morris)

• Healing and identity:

  “A heavenly father that I thought was angry, that wanted to hit me on the head every time I did something wrong, was a loving father that just wanted to hold me in his arms and heal me of my brokenness.” (54:37, JoJo Morris)

• The music of heaven:

  “It’s like Lauren Daigle meets Coldplay meets Lecrae meets Jamie Grace—all at once. Yet it all made sense and felt beautiful...” (55:10, JoJo Morris)

• Message to others:

  “If you’re hearing—people get there; just don’t give up. Because what you’re about to hear next will give you a reason to keep living.” (33:05, JoJo Morris)

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Suggested Listening Timestamps

• JoJo’s shift into Mennonite life: 03:00–09:20
• Effects of oppressive religion: 12:00–19:00
• The music controversy and suppression: 24:54–32:19
• Depression and NDE trigger: 32:19–36:12
• Out-of-body and NDE judgment: 36:12–48:45
• Life review through God’s eyes: 48:45–55:10
• Music of heaven and future purpose: 55:10–69:18
• Return to life and miracles: 69:18–77:42
• John Burke’s reflections on religion/relationship: 78:44–88:16

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Summary/Takeaways

• Legalistic, fear-based religion almost destroyed JoJo’s sense of self and relationship with God; his NDE revealed that God is, in fact, loving, personal, and celebrates our gifts and joys.
• God’s standard is not rules, but relationship, grace, and transformation from the inside out.
• JoJo’s experience offers hope to anyone burned by religion: redemption and restoration are possible.

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For more, listen to the full episode and explore John Burke’s books or earlier podcasts for continued discussion on near-death experiences and spiritual transformation.

Transcript

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[John Burke]

felt burned by religion or by religious legalism? How does God feel about religion? You know, JoJo Morris was in a radically strict religious group the day he had a near death experience. And what JoJo heard and what God showed him changed his views forever. Well, stick around to the end. We're going to explore not only what JoJo experienced, but also what Jesus taught about the good, the bad and the ugly of religion. Well, I'm John Burke, author of the New York Times best selling book Imagine Heaven and this is the Imagine Heaven podcast. Well, hey JoJo Morris. So great to have you on the podcast today.

[JoJo Morris]

Thank you so much John. It's an honor and privilege to be here and I've loved getting to know you.

[John Burke]

Well, tell us man. Go get into it.

[JoJo Morris]

Absolutely. Thank you so much. And so my story is not unique in and of itself other than a miracle happened. And that's what I want to share about. So the miracle, we'll get to that in a moment. But a little bit of a foundation of who JoJo is. And you might wonder, you know, why is this man named JoJo? Well, just a little backstory on that. When my parents named me and I was born in Texas there in 1995, they named me Joe. That's my official name. But there was my dad was named Joe and my great grandfather's name was Joe. So there's too many Joes running around. So that's why I got the name JoJo. But there's a reason why I believe God has that name for me and I'll share that later. The story begins there in Texas. My family was a regular American family. We were well integrated into society. My dad had a professional job, he works in the government on the aviation side. And we had a really smooth life at this point. My parents were high school sweethearts. They ended up eloping right out of high school and they were self starters and and so we're this happy family. I'm about, you know, two, three years old and we moved to Oklahoma. During that time, my parents started searching for a deeper truth. And they've always believed in God, but you know, it's Sunday football, you know, my mom wore makeup, she went out and did her nails, she, you know, wore jeans. Just integrated into society. But right around when I was five years old, my parents were searching for an alternative schooling method. And so they went to this homeschool convention there in Oklahoma and ran across a group and they called themselves the Mennonites. And so that whole story about who is the Mennonites could be an hour long conversation. But in short, they were starting named Minnow Simons way back in the day. But he believed that we as adults needed to be baptized. And so they called them the Anabaptist, but to make it worse, they called them the Mennonites. They were just like, oh, those Mennonites. And they were killing them, they were hanging them, they were unfortunately persecuting them and very harshly at that time. So what happened was these people migrated over to the US in the early days and they became very successful. They settled down and they, they believe in having a lot of children. So they populated very quickly. Well the thing was with, with comfort and religion comes stagnation. And so a lot of rules were put into place to keep the church together. They noticed the Mennonite church was noticing a lot of the young people were leaving. So therefore more and more strict standards. And so now it's the early 2000s and the Mennonite church has probably over a thousand factions at this point. We ran into a very small faction there in Oklahoma, more of like a homeschooling group. And so within six months, my entire life changed on its on upside down. Went from experiencing normal life to my mom sewing her own clothes. We started growing on food. My parents threw their jewelry away. They, you know, we stopped visiting with my grandparents so much. We, because we're first generation, we were regular Americans before this, you know. And so now I'm experiencing a polar opposite of what I had previously moving on in my life.

[John Burke]

And was this. At this point, were you. Because you ended up, like, moving into a community. Right, but this is, at this point, it's just. Your parents are just beginning to associate with this group.

[JoJo Morris]

Absolutely. Yes, you're right. So shortly after, my parents decided it was time to move to a northern state up east. And that's where we lived around. Our neighbors were like, some of them were Mennonites, some of them were Amish, but we lived in a. Like a town there in Lancaster county where a lot of Mennonite people were going to a church and so on.

[John Burke]

Although they would.

[JoJo Morris]

Would not call themselves like Mennonites, they were. They did everything identical to, like, the Mennonite brethren, but they called themselves a charity group. And so I'll, I'll dive more into these details if you guys want to know, but very strict. You know, they believe in, you know, very, very strict discipline. At the time, there was a. A book about raising godly children. And one of the mottos was, you basically just got to spank the evilness out of them. And so my parents took that to the extreme. And there's, you know, out of eight of us children, I was little, middle, middle boy. There's four boys, four girls. And my sisters got the brunt of it from my mother, But I also got a lot of the brunt of that as well. And my parents had good intentions. They wanted us to be good, but it was almost like it took that anger out on us growing up. And so growing up, it was a lot of oppression. And yes, I had a lot of good memories as a child. Growing up on a farm is so much fun, but I spent most of my time outdoors because I didn't like to be inside the house. A lot of fighting was going on. Punishment was, you know, we'd get grounded for a month just for talking back or something. And so as a, as a child, that goes into your psyche where you're. You're always scared of doing something wrong. You know, slamming the door, going outside with permission. As a. As a 10 year old, you're. You start being very fearful of everything. And that shapes your view of God.

[John Burke]

Oh, yeah.

[JoJo Morris]

Distinctly. We lived in Pennsylvania for about four years, and one time I was out there weeding our garden. Our garden faced the street and these people jumped out and these guys were saying, them be the Amish. Them be da Amish. They thought we were Amish. I was wearing a straw hat just for protection from the sun. But I was like, who are these clowns? Like, why do they think I'm Amish, like I'm normal, you know, because at that point I thought the Mennonites that you know, that plane circles was the way to God and everyone else is stretch in my.

[John Burke]

Is that what they. Is that what they were teaching in that sect of Mennonite church?

[JoJo Morris]

They were saying that, you know, you have to be holy, like God is holy. And although they might not publicly say we are the only way, all of the teaching pointed in that direction where it. You really wasn't seeker friendly. And so it attracted radicalism.

[John Burke]

Yeah.

[JoJo Morris]

And so people that are very radical, they would come very oppressive of women. Do not believe in a higher education. Very controlling. We had rules on how long our sleeves had to be, you know, what color our shirts had to be. Simple things like that. The ladies, they would go into these hour long meetings. The guys would go into these hour long meetings just to discuss if the ladies were allowed to wear a two layer cape dress. And if you want to know what that is, it's basically a cape dress that know folds over the front twice and is sewed. And then if you're allowed to have pleats in your dress or if it has to be smooth like these are arguments that the church was having. So that's why I call it a cult because I don't.

[John Burke]

Intensely controlling.

[JoJo Morris]

Yeah. It wasn't like how can we get our young people to just be on fire for Jesus? How can we heal the lost? How can we heal the sick? Those weren't the majority of the conversations. The majority was rulemaking.

[John Burke]

It's like, it's kind of, kind of like modern day Phariseeism. You know, in Jesus day, the fair. Yeah, the Pharisees had. Had figured out 613 laws in the law of Moses. And all of them, you know, they were just nitpicking at everything and debated constantly on which one was the. The greatest or the least. That's when they're trying to actually trap Jesus when they ask him which is the greatest commandment. And he says it's easy, love God. And the second like it is love your neighbor as yourself.

[JoJo Morris]

Yeah.

[John Burke]

Kind of shut them up.

[JoJo Morris]

Well, the funny thing was is it was not funny. It was more ironic was we actually talked about the Pharisees and how not to be like them. Yet we were the Pharisees of our day. And so when people would come that were broken and someone would come in with drug addiction, tattoos, etc, just putting like a profile on it, that person would walk in and the message they would be hearing was the message that there would be like a passage in the scripture, a very long passage about taking care of your widows. And that would be the entire sermon for two hours. And this person in the back wouldn't really hear about Jesus. They would just hear these issues that the church was having at that time that Paul was writing to. And I would notice these people would then leave without encountering God. And so as a young man, I'm hungry to grow in the church, to sort of go back into the story here. I was hungry to grow in the church and I was recognized early on for my passion to, to lead. And so I started leading Sunday school. We would do a message in the middle of service for the children. And remember, like our messages weren't an hour, they would start. Sometimes you get there for prayer at 8, usually pray for about an hour and then service would start at 9. And it was separate seating at this church. So men sat on one side, ladies sat on the other side. They felt like it would be a distraction if women and men sat together. And so another legalistic thing, which is just crazy, which meant the majority of the moms had to do the child carrying because you know, they were stuck with, you know, five children down the road. Singing would go on and then at about one o' clock the service would let out. So you know, it's 10, 11, 12, 1. That's four hours of sitting for a very much antsy little eight, nine year old boy. And believe me, oh yeah, studied the back of a wooden church pew for years. And so this is my, this shaping who I believe God is. I believe he's stoic, I believe God is angry. I know God hates sin. I don't really know how much he loves me, although I know he sent his son to die for me. At this point I knew I needed to be saved, to be saved from hell. So as I grow up, my family decides we're going to move away from Pennsylvania. We're going to move back to Oklahoma. And we bought a farm and we had lived on a small farm in Pennsylvania at that point. And so we moved to Oklahoma. We're pretty much living off grid. We had electricity in our own well. But we really were living the Mennonite dream. That's where things took a dark turn.

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[John Burke]

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[JoJo Morris]

starts with the right support. And so this entire time as a young man, I'm having gut issues, I'm having bedwetting issues. And that causes a lot of shame to build up in your life when you don't know why things are happening in your body. So I have an older.

[John Burke]

But it was probably, I mean probably resulting from all the internalized tension and stress. Do you think that's my deduction.

[JoJo Morris]

So I'm, I'm realizing that a lot of that probably came from, you know, the inner fighting where our parents would blame us children for their marital issues. And my parents are human, you know. And so I've, as I've grown up I've really. There's a story of redemption with my parents and I'll share that in a bit too. But we're now in Oklahoma and I'm struggling with a lot of anger issues. I'm having like just moments of rage where I'll go to the barn and just punch my fists into the hay bales until they bleed and just really upset at, angry at everything. You know, I'm 12, 13 years old at this point and so I take up hunting as like an outlet and I spend a lot of time in the woods. I spending out time with God in creation. And I don't know him personally as my savior at this point. But there was a very dark time in our family where we started struggling financially because my dad had quit his job and we started feeling the pressure financially. The farm was not doing well in Oklahoma. If you know anything about raising an income from the land in Oklahoma, it's similar. You pretty much live in hell with, with tornadoes, locusts, grasshoppers, fire, everything, repeat. And then it's 110 degrees for three months straight. And it was brutal. And so we failed drastically. And my dad's a dreamer. And I think that's why I get that dreamer part from my father and my mom is they, they, they have this idealistic dream in their mind of what they want a family to look like. And so by trying to create that, it ended up driving a big wedge. My older sister gets married in 2014 during the same time, about a month later, my younger sister and I give our heart to the Lord. And I remember that night, hearing her, it was pretty, it was pretty dramatic. But we were. She gave her heart to Jesus. I knew that she was. She had asked mom and dad to lead her through that, that prayer and the week prior. I always tell the story of what I remember. One of the reasons why I gave my life to God was I was sitting in a sermon, about 120 ish farmers were in this room with families. And we're back with the original church that actually got us involved with the Mennonites now. So we had done this big loop out to Pennsylvania, back down to Oklahoma. So we're back with the original group. And I remember listening to the sermon, I felt my skin burning and I was like, I need to get saved because I don't want to go to hell. So I technically got fire insurance. But God does work in mysterious ways. So I gave my life to God. I was 14 years old and I just remember thinking to myself, I am saved. I remember going to bed feeling so grateful. I just remember feeling so relieved. I remember feeling new. And that started a week long spree of me calling every person in our phone director. Back in the day, you would have a phone, I was attached to the wall and you would just basically call the phone director. I called everyone in the church, let them know I gave my heart to Jesus, asked him if I'd done anything wrong, ask for the forgiveness if I had. And a lot of the people were sort of shocked. They were like, what's wrong with you, man? Like, they didn't say that directly, but that was the tone.

[John Burke]

And so are these people, These are people in the Mennonite church or other people?

[JoJo Morris]

No, they were men at church. I told my neighbors, I told everyone I met. And so I'm on fire. Like the definition of on fire was JoJo. And so I still remember feeling so discouraged after calling everyone. But there was one, there's an older lady in the face. She was like my sister to me. She was really good friends with my older sisters and, and she said, she even wrote a letter to me later. But she, she told me on the phone, jojo, this is so exciting and I'm so glad to hear that you've given your life to God. You're going to have some hard days, but don't let people crush the light that God's given you. And so I held onto those words. And a couple weeks in, my pastor walks up to me and he's like, it's time for, you know, baptism. We go through the classes. I get baptized with, like, three or four other young people. And it's very much a peer pressure thing. When you're in the youth group, you know, if people are giving their heart to Jesus, you better jump on the bandwagon or get lost. You know, you don't want to be a rebel because, you know, it's. It's rough being a rebel in the church. It's just, like, constant condemnation. And so. And the type of condemnation I'm talking about is you listening to the radio and then you feeling guilty for, like, a month because you turned on that radio and you listened to the devil's music, and you let the devil into your life like that. And it was K Love. That was the devil. And so that's why I always share this story, is like, that's the type of religious strictness I was.

[John Burke]

And for those. For those who don't know Caleb is

[JoJo Morris]

a Christian music station, it's incredibly uplifting, very positive, encouraging. I think that's literally their tagline.

[John Burke]

Yeah, encouraging lifting Caleb or something like that.

[JoJo Morris]

They have hundreds of thousands.

[John Burke]

So you're describing, like, intense legalism, because even. Even this Christian music, they're calling it music of the devil.

[JoJo Morris]

Yes. And we would even do studies where we would break it down and figure out, like, the binaural beats or the. The hidden subliminal messages in the. In the music. We would go into science, like, on why this music was so bad for your soul. And there probably is some truth that we should be aware about on how beats affect our life. And listening to death metal versus listening to classic rocket or classic music music. Classical music does affect how plants grow, so there's definitely a correlation with our bodies. But during this time, I remember my pastor, after I got baptized, I got baptized in a muddy creek with my sister and a couple other people. And I remember walking out of that muddy water and feeling renewed. And then he walks up to me, this old man, white beard, and he's like, welcome to the church. Or something along that line, like, welcome to the brethren, or I need to get the exact quote down. But I was like, what do you mean? He's like, you're now a member. I'm like, I thought I was already a member in the church. He's like, no, you've officially become a member. When you get baptized, you sort of just get, you know, in. And I found out we were part of, like, a Mennonite brethren group. So religious oppression Feeling a lot of darkness in my life.

[John Burke]

I'm.

[JoJo Morris]

I'm experiencing night terror. It started when I was about five years old, experiencing crippling, bedwetting. Gut issues were getting really bad. I'm. I'm starting to have anxiety and I didn't really have a word to put to it at the time. I was starting to experience depression. And I'm not, I'm not giving the tools to diagnose what's going on in my life. So I just have to suppress, suppress, suppress. Sweep under the rug, don't talk about it, and just act like everything's fine. So I started really getting good at acting. I started smiling. And at this point, I sort of was taken under the wing of the elders where I was being taught the ways of the church. Being brought up as an elder in the congregation. And so turn 18. And my family has a big aha moment. They're like, the Mennonites don't do enough mission outreach. And we're done with the Mennonites. And I'm thinking, whoa. Like, wow, this is crazy. You know? And so they sat us all down. By then, my older sister had been pretty much excommunicated from the church because her and her husband, they decided she was going to start wearing pants. They went to a secular church nearby and they got ostracized.

[John Burke]

We stopped a secular church, like a Baptist church or something.

[JoJo Morris]

It was a. It was a church called New Covenant at the time, led by a. It was amazing couple, CJ and Lisa Ellis. It was. They're still my good friends to this day.

[John Burke]

Like a, Like a non denominational church.

[JoJo Morris]

Yeah, similar, non denominational. They love Jesus, you know, Very upbeat worship and everything.

[John Burke]

Yeah.

[JoJo Morris]

So they're out now. So it's just us seven siblings at the house now. And mom and dad were like, we're gonna go on a mission trip to Mexico. Are you guys in? And we were thinking about moving in with a Hutterite colony and let's do it. And so we sell the farm after eight years of living in Oklahoma and lose all my friends. Reset. At that time, I had graduated out of seventh grade, got my gad. I got a pretty, like, not shady. It wasn't shady. Shoddy. How do you like a very spotted education at that point? Oh, yeah. And I'm smart, so I graded really well when I took the ged and so I graduated out of that. We're going on this mission trip to. To Mexico. We spent about 3ish months there in Mexico. After we moved back, we moved in with this Hutterite col and that's when things went from worse to really bad. So.

[John Burke]

And you're in Mexico now.

[JoJo Morris]

So we had stud did a short stint in Mexico after we sold the farm. But now we moved all the way north and we now live in Minnesota.

[John Burke]

Okay.

[JoJo Morris]

Just ping ponging around my family.

[John Burke]

We moved because of this Hutterite community.

[JoJo Morris]

Yeah, we moved for this Hutterite community. So we moved out of the Mennonites and now we're officially in the Hutterites, which is like a stricter version of the Mennonites.

[John Burke]

And, and just so I understand and people listening to understand it. So is it like true off the grid living like you're, you're farming, you're, you're just. The work is creating your own clothes, your own food, your own all self sustaining within this community.

[JoJo Morris]

I would say pretty much 95 self sustaining. Like we still, we still bought our men's shirts from the store, but they were very plain. The ladies sewed 100 of their clothes including coverings mind you. The ladies would cover their hair with these head coverings and it's a really like perfect euphoric life. Everyone has their place in this colony. And so we moved in. We're in a two story house. We moved on top. There was another family living below us. And I instantly found my place as a young man. I had a job. The next day we got there. I had a close group of friends that were my buddies. My sisters integrated right away. But it became really bad for my mom. She could not take it. Pretty much went off the rails and causing a lot of ended up leaving for a month or two. It was a lot of fights, blowout fights. I ended up staying away from the house for days sometimes because of how toxic it was and it was very abusive.

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[JoJo Morris]

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[JoJo Morris]

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[JoJo Morris]

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[John Burke]

What do you mean?

[JoJo Morris]

Well, not just. Sometimes I would get drug around by my hair. One time I did and it was just very.

[John Burke]

By your dad or by who?

[JoJo Morris]

My mother. And so like where things were getting physical and I didn't feel safe. And so this whole time I feel like God's beating me up. That messes with your mind pretty much. And so totally I started writing music at this point and it was.

[John Burke]

And you're how old now?

[JoJo Morris]

18. Going into 19. Okay, so I'm a young man, you know, passionate for the Lord. And I had a revival in my heart of just like, how do I serve the Lord? And my sister, my older sister who had gotten excommunicated from the church, smuggled me a book called no Compromise by, I think Steve Green writes it. And this musician speaks into living a life sold out for God. And it inspired me so much. I started writing music and it would hit me two in the morning. I'd wake up with like this burning sensation in my chest. And I would just write an entire song in 15 minutes. It was done. We had a piano in our room. Our family believed it was okay to have guitars and pianos, but nothing with a beat. You were not allowed to play this music in church. There was strict parameters. You could only play it around a campfire and in living rooms. And so I started just writing.

[John Burke]

Was it the music? The, the. The instruments that were kind of like forbidden in church, but it was okay outside of church?

[JoJo Morris]

Yes. They believed that we needed to worship God with our voice only. It would be. They believed it was a distraction to use instruments in church. It was very legalistic. There's not really any biblical backing to that. It was just an elder. Had been an elder for 40 years, had decided that. And we all went along with it. And so.

[John Burke]

So David's. David's clanging symbols would be out, like the Psalms. Nothing about clanging symbols. Nope.

[JoJo Morris]

Those are looked over very quickly. And I would bring it up a lot. And I got in trouble a lot. I was a bit of a rebel. Even though I was being raised to be the next elder. You know, there's multiple other young men that were, we're gonna be elders together. But I would get in trouble for writing this music. And it would. The church elders didn't really care at that point if I was writing music, because that wasn't causing issues. But what started causing issues was the entire youth group got on board. And depending on how big you wanted to do it, I mean, from age 5 to 25, there's probably close to 60 plus young people. 70 pl young people there. And when they all start seeing your music at a big event like a wedding, when, like, five to six other churches gather, it makes a really big splash. So I remember there's a huge wedding. Well over 500 people were there. I think three couples got married at the same time. They believed in, like, mass marriages. Like, everyone would get married on the same day. Not everyone, but just walk down the aisle one after another there. Like, it was pretty unique. Very unique.

[John Burke]

Which, hey, well, that's an efficient way to do it as a pastor, you know.

[JoJo Morris]

Exactly.

[John Burke]

You don't have to kill three weekends. Just one.

[JoJo Morris]

Well, and it was a full blowout, like, three days of celebration, which is absolutely wild. So there's tons of singing. And I remember I debuted one of my songs. It's called Give youe Life Away. My Brother and I sang it, and then I taught the choir another song. And everyone was like, where did this music come from? And I didn't tell anybody I wrote it. I just sort of talked. I was a choir director at the time. I taught the music, and my mom sort of started hunting for who wrote that song. And she found out it was me. And she brought me before the elders and said, this is. My son is in rebellion. This is tearing my. My relationship apart with my. My dad and her. And I was just, like, blindsided that my mom would stab me in the back, theoretically, you know, with this, like, stop this. Don't let him write music, basically using the authority of the elders to crush me. So now I'm thinking like, God gave me a gift of writing music and now he slapped me on the face and that spiraled me into.

[John Burke]

And. And what was the give your life away was the song.

[JoJo Morris]

Yeah, the whole song is about. Is based on the scripture of if you try to save your life, you're going to lose it. But if you give your life away for the sake of the gospel and for the kingdom of God, you're going to get it back. Like God's going to give you your life.

[John Burke]

Sounds demonic.

[JoJo Morris]

That sounds horrible. Right? Couldn't be scripturally based. And so I'm glad we can.

[John Burke]

But. But no, I mean, really, I mean, really help us understand. Like what. Why would that be, why would that be offensive or in any way? I don't understand.

[JoJo Morris]

It was, it was awakening the hearts of the young people in a way that was causing them to ask questions of why we've done this for so long. Why are we saying the same songs for the last two, 300 years? And the Hutterites have been even longer than the Mennonites. But we're living in a commune. I don't make my own money. I don't make my own money at all. We contribute to a pot. The church had like a money pot that we would all just put all of our money in. And it was a financial account. I never ever saw it. But we just all live for each other's good. And so all of a sudden you have two, three young ladies asking to get nursing degrees because God speaks to them and he's like, I would like you to be nurses. And they go ask the elders that. But my mom found out that two of my sisters wanted to become nurses, and she shut it down. But she started seeing that music was influencing a revival. And that's sort of like I'm understanding how maybe that would have caused this reaction.

[John Burke]

And it was almost like, you know, because I do think music is, is a gift from God, you know, I mean, and. And one of the things I've studied is the music of heaven. And it is, it's unbelievable. And they, they say it's like multi dimensional. It's way beyond, you know, what, what we understand. But I think it does, it does ignite something in the heart, in the soul. Right. That I think is pointing toward the gift giver. And so you're saying you're. You get this gift from God, you start writing these songs and, and it's catching on. And it's birthing kind of like a fire in. In people.

[JoJo Morris]

Absolutely. And so the. The kids were singing it. I had a boys choir at the time and the children were going home singing these songs I was teaching them. And like, Fanny Crosby is a big. I'm a big fan of her and the music she writes. And you know, even Amazing Grace, we would sing Chris Tomlin's version of that and we would do an acapell version of that. And so it was. It was really unique to see how God used the music to bless other people. And all I wanted was for people to just know God deeper. And so now I'm struggling with this oppressive, oppressive weight on my shoulders, on my life.

[John Burke]

Why do you think your mom was opposed to it?

[JoJo Morris]

She wanted control. It was getting out of control. Like people were trying to make their own decisions. And so whereas the church didn't really mind that we were doing it, it was our family specifically that was having some huge issues and the enemy was attacking us outright.

[John Burke]

It's kind of like they're. Yeah. Like the heart is being ignited and. And toward God.

[JoJo Morris]

Right, Exactly.

[John Burke]

And so yet it feels out of control.

[JoJo Morris]

Yeah. 101 and so when stuff started getting out of control where young people started really showing up on a more spiritual level, it looked out of control through the eyes of my parents. And unfortunately it was pretty much stomped down. One of the elders even sat me down and said, this is causing issues. We'd rather you seen country music than this new devil worship music you're creating. And so.

[John Burke]

Which was. Which was worship music to God.

[JoJo Morris]

I was shocked when I heard that. And so at that point, is that right?

[John Burke]

I mean it was worship music to God. But they were calling it devil music

[JoJo Morris]

at this time that's going on. I'm growing up now. I'm pushing 20 years old, and I get into a hockey accident one winter. And my philosophy at this point was if something bad happens to me, it's because God is judging me. I didn't really look at this kind

[John Burke]

of like you've done something wrong and

[JoJo Morris]

you're being punished 100%. And so I get this hockey accident. I'm in the er, big bloody mess and my face is starting. Is wired shut. I'm having a drink through a straw and I'm asking God, what have I done wrong for you to look down and strike me like this? This feels cruel. And so when everything starts crumbling around your life, it's very easy to wonder why you're alive. It's. Wonder why I was put on Earth, why did I, why have I gone through all this pain in my life? And at this, I had buried little babies in our church that had died. So I'd seen the death of infants. I'd seen at this point, two of the people, one of the people that had raised me, she died of cancer as a young mom. And I, you know, saw her children stopping by her graveside. So I'm like, this is a God that just hates us. Like, what's going on here? And so I started questioning everything and started spiraling deeper and deeper into this darkness. But on the outside, you better keep up that smile or else you'll get demoted. You'll, you'll lose all your privileges of, you know, leading music, of teaching. And so I had to keep this like double Persona going on. And it was really hard. It really wrecks havoc on your life. And so at this point, I basically told God, gave him an ultimatum. I screamed into my pillow one week and I said, God, oh, this happened right after the place I worked at burned to the ground. So I lost my, my, my, the shop I worked in. And so that was like my life working and building those mini barns, you know. And so after the fire, I remember screaming into my pillow saying some very bad things. And I said, God, if you're real, you better, you better let me know why I'm here or else I don't want to be alive anymore. And I didn't have like a suicide plan, but I just didn't want to be alive. I didn't want to exist. And so very dark. It's shameful to say out loud again, but I need to, because people are at that point in their life probably right now. And so if you're hearing, yeah, people get there, just don't give up. Because what you're about to hear next will give you a reason to keep living. And so about a week or so afterwards, I went to go take my, my usual nap at 3 o'.

[John Burke]

Clock.

[JoJo Morris]

I'm a very regimented person at this point. We had a very strict schedule in the colony. Pretty much every minute was accounted for. And so we had a 30 minute break at 3 every single day. And that day I just chose to sleep during my break because I needed the rest because I was so exhausted mentally and physically.

[WSECU/Weight Watchers/Grainger Announcer]

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[JoJo Morris]

Why?

[WSECU/Weight Watchers/Grainger Announcer]

Because we put you first. Lower fees, early paydays, financial guidance and service second to none. As a member owned cooperative. We love Washington as much as you do. From the Olympic Mountains to the rolling Palouse. Join us and discover how much we care about your financial well being because what we really do best is invest in you. Visit WS. Visit ECU.org today to learn more. Washington let's Credit Union Weight Watchers now offers access to affordable GLP wants. It works for members like I'm Haley and I've lost 100 pounds. Weight Watchers has everything I need from weight loss medications to nutrition support and help with my side effects.

[JoJo Morris]

It's all in one place.

[WSECU/Weight Watchers/Grainger Announcer]

Weight Watchers handles the insurance for you and offers affordable cash pay options. With our program, our members are losing more weight with expert nutrition and side effects support.

[JoJo Morris]

I'm Mike and I've lost 135lbs pounds weight watchers prescribing GLP1 medications it's been life changing.

[John Burke]

I'm Sharia and I lost 80 pounds on Weight Watchers.

[JoJo Morris]

I realized that it would take more than a prescription to lose weight and feel good on a GLP1.

[WSECU/Weight Watchers/Grainger Announcer]

Better results, expert support, lose more weight, make it last.

[JoJo Morris]

I can't imagine doing a GLP1 without Weight Watchers.

[WSECU/Weight Watchers/Grainger Announcer]

Get started for as low as $[e-mail] GLP1 medications require eligibility and prescription. Patients on 15 milligrams of Paris appetite had an average of 21% weight loss and a 72 week clinical trial when paired with diet and exercise. First month was 25 dollars for the 12 month plus plan does not include the cost of GLP1 medications.

[JoJo Morris]

And as I went to take my nap, I laid my head down and my neck snapped.

[John Burke]

How. How did your neck snap?

[JoJo Morris]

I heard an audible crack, like an audible snap in my ears and I couldn't move. I was paralyzed. And so I'm laying.

[John Burke]

You were trying. You were trying to move but couldn't?

[JoJo Morris]

Yeah, I could not move my arms. Moments later, I see the back of my head as my spirit disconnects from and I start panicking. And I'm realizing that this is not a dream because I, I dream a lot. I'm a. I'm a dreamer. I have dreams almost every single night. But this was crystal clear. I can breathe into my spirit form. I could see my own self, but I was completely disconnected from this lifeless body laying on the bed. So I started panicking. I started thinking, no, no, no, no, no, maybe this is a dream. And I was like, everything was crystal clear. And so in all my dreams it's. I got blurry around the peripherals and it's always like. It jumps from scene to scene really quick. And when I wake up, I usually remember about half of it. But this was like you and I speaking to each other right now. There was no lag in memory. It was like I was fully awake, fully conscious, but I was in spirit form. My hearing becomes incredibly sensitive at this point. And I had tried to pinch myself, and I felt the pain in my spirit, and I looked at my skin, I saw the pinch mark. And I was like, oh, no. Like, this is really real. And so I went to go rest my arm on my. I had a dresser right next to my bed, and I went to rest my arm to lean over, and my arm just, like, phased right through the wood. And so then I realized, like, this is not a joke. This is real. And so instead of using the hall and the door to get out the house, I just ran straight through the wall, and I started yelling for help. And it's hard to explain, like, why you do certain things when you realize you're dead. Because you realize you're disconnected from the living world, and you. You cannot get back to it. And so I thought for some reason, I could maybe find someone that could see me.

[John Burke]

And these.

[JoJo Morris]

This lady was doing her laundry in the middle. We all the ladies were required to do their laundry in the middle of the colony. We weren't allowed to have washing machines in the homes at that point. And so this lady was carrying this kid on her hip. She was pulling her laundry behind her. And I was yelling, please help. Please help me. And probably saying some other things. But as I was standing there, someone else walked through me. And I realized that there was no hope of me getting back into my body. I'm panicking. I'm like, what do I do? Like, at this point, I'm thinking irrationally, and my brain starts hurting. It feels like a cheese grater was, like, grating my nerves because I hear things seem like they were miles away. I could hear the kids playing in creek, you know, quarter mile away. And I could hear them, you know, laughing and splashing in the water. And I heard someone fighting in a nearby house. And I started hearing a car start. It was a cacophony of, like, a symphony, a very unorganized symphony of sounds hitting me all at once. So I'm so.

[John Burke]

It's like all. Were all. All your senses heightened?

[JoJo Morris]

Very heightened. And at that moment of, like, despair, this angel shows up. And I don't look up, but I is. She's taller than me, and he's like, he speaks this, this one line, he goes, it's time for judgment. And so time for judgment, it's time for judgment. Like, this is it. Like, that was my life. And I'm thinking to myself, like, all right, well, I better go. Like, there's, there's. There's no point in me being here. But I still felt like at this point, I had a choice. And I still, I still felt very human. I still felt very broken. I still felt. I still felt very desperate in my heart. I still felt very angry. I still felt that dark weight of depression over me. And so we start ascending, we start levitating off the Earth. And within a few moments, we went through these three distinct levels. And it's very difficult to explain, but Paul does talk about there being, you know, heavens. And there's these levels that you go through, evidently. But there was a dark spiritual battle raging on Earth, and it was a raging battle of demons. These dark gray figures, many different shapes running across the face of the earth, fighting these light. These light bursts that were coming. And I knew there were. These light bursts were shooting up. I knew that was like the good on Earth, that was like, maybe the saints of God that were sending up prayers, maybe that was the angels of God protecting them. But they would dog pile on these light beams and then it would like, be a whack, a mole, they were. Another one would pop up over here, and I could see one in South America. I could see them all over. And right when I surrendered, because I tried to fight it for a while, right when I surrendered, I made it through the veil or this, this big wall of water. And I saw what I now know was the throne room right below us. And it had like clouds leading up to it and it was shining. It felt like I was looking at the sun and I was like shielding my eyes as we descended. And you know that feeling you get in it when an elevator goes down really fast or you go over a hill? Like that tickly feeling in your stomach. Like, I knew I was falling. And so the angel brings me down and I had a choice to go with angel everywhere I went. But the angel took me as I was descending into this stadium like place. There was the stadium, bleachers just went up. And there was thousands, if not a hundred thousand plus angels, all different races and colors, and they were all just staring at, standing at attention as I landed in the throne room. And one of the first things I remembered after I saw this, the bleachers I was landing in, was that it was Square, like. But I looked down and the tiles were insane. Like, Matt. Each one was a masterpiece where there was. Artists had done. Each tile was about this big 12 by 12 or 18 by 18. And I was standing on this artwork that was just mind blowing. It was almost liquid, like, but it was solid. Some of them went down for many, many feet. But in there was like these masterpieces that I knew an artist had created. And it took years to be made, but that was the. That was a floor of heaven. And.

[John Burke]

And so you know. You know now that like when you pass through that veil or liquid water, whatever, you then knew you were entering heaven.

[JoJo Morris]

Yeah, well, I knew I was entering the, like, the judgment area. And I knew my. My eyes.

[John Burke]

And how did you know that?

[JoJo Morris]

It's a feeling you have in your heart. An angel tells you it's time for judgment. You go through a very. You go through a warlike, demonic realm of the earth that you know as a fight's happening, all of a sudden you go through a veil and there's no demons. There it is just. Just holy. I. I felt so dirty. I felt like I was unclean. And as I. I knew this is where I was going to be judged. And so there's a lot of like, intuition that you feel in this. And it's at this point still there's. It's not a dream. It's so crystal clear. And I tried to snap myself out of it multiple times. Like, you know when you try to kick yourself, you're like, oh, what if this isn't really happening? But like, no, this is happening. I'm still feeling rage in my heart brokenness. I'm still feeling angry at God for the accident that had happened with my. I had a hockey accident with my teeth. My face is messed up and I still am feeling depressed. And everyone's just quiet. And I look over and I see this throne in this big. This being a human shape. And I knew it was God. I couldn't see his face. It quite literally shone brighter than the sun. Even though I thought I was landing in something that was as bright as the sun, this was even brighter. His face. I could not see his face, but he was drinking out of a coffee mug. And this is where a lot of people get upset. They're like, how could you tell me that I was drinking a coffee mug?

[John Burke]

I don't know.

[JoJo Morris]

I don't know why, but I was angry at him. My religious spirit leapt out like a. Like a pharisee. And my heart was like, how could you be Sitting on your butt. My, I thought these were thoughts like, how could you be sitting on your rear end while the earth burns? Babies are dying, moms are starving, and there's so much problems going on earth. Like why aren't you doing something? Like, why are you just sitting here? Why is everyone quiet? Like this is supposed to be heaven? Like what's going on with you guys? Like, why aren't you working? Pretty much was my attitude. I'm just remembering the emotion I felt was like self righteous, where I knew what was right. I knew what God should be doing right now and he wasn't doing his job.

[John Burke]

And I know, I wonder, you know, Jojo, because I've, because I've heard your testimony, you know, before this, I've kind of wondered if, if it wasn't like God was first showing you what it would look like according to your religious ideas.

[JoJo Morris]

Oh, 100. That was what was going on.

[John Burke]

And it's judgment. It's judgment according, according to your own thoughts. And, and, and Jesus, you know, Jesus even said, by your own words, will you be acquitted? By your own words will you be condemned? And, and that is if, if we are our own, like no, I'm good. You know, in our self righteousness, then we end up seeing that, oh my gosh, I was so wrong. But if we recognize I need God's forgiveness, I need what Jesus did, then by our own words, we experience something completely other than judgment. I, I don't mean to get ahead of you and I can, you know,

[JoJo Morris]

I can take that out, but this is perfect.

[John Burke]

I was just. It. Because, because, because this part of your story is, is, is different than a lot of near death experiences that, that I've heard. But you got to hear the first and the second part.

[JoJo Morris]

Oh yeah, we're about to get into that. And so I'm, I'm standing there with this rage in my heart, this self righteous rage. And the, is the. It was like the surround sound voice boomed around me and I heard it from all different directions. It's time for judgment to begin. Or like let judgment begin. And I was just like sort of add attention, you know, you get real, you straighten up your back and these three holograms popped out and my life started playing. These very tall holograms, like the whole stadium could see them and like the people on the other side of it and they could see what I was seeing on this side because I could sort of see through them, but I could see a very clear vision of what was going on in my life. So When I was born in Texas there in 1995, my parents holding me in that home. They had a home birth and they were holding me, you know, it's a boy, and this really cute memory. And then just the years just got darker and darker. I started seeing the oppression. I started seeing the struggles that I'm an older handicapped brother, all the struggles he was going through and us taking care of him, my parents not. Not being able to find a solution to help cure his sickness, and them spiraling into more and more marital issues. And I just saw this darkness, like, sweep over my life. And I saw me doing very shameful things as a young man. And I just remember thinking, like, this is my life. And this felt like I had been dead for, like, at least two or three days at this point. It time felt like it had been dragging on for a very long time. So I had lost all concept of how long I was there, but it felt like I had been there for multiple days. And so I'm watching all this and it was like looking at memories. And it would jump to the next season of my life when, you know, I would get really angry and I would lash out, and then it would go on to another bad memory. And I'm just like, why. Why am I watching this version of my life? You know, at this point, I don't realize it's a version which. We'll get to this, the redemptive part here in a moment. And so I saw myself. The fire happened there in Minnesota. I saw my. My dark swing into giving God the ultimatum. And then I see myself a week later. So take my nap. I see myself lay down. And then I see and hear my next snap on the bed. And then the screens roll up and everything goes. So that was like the beginning of my life all the way through to the end. And I don't want to get lost in details, but you. You feel a finality at that point where, like, that was it. Like, that is not much to show for my life. That was pretty hopeless. And so God then says, is his name in the book of life? And at that point I'm like, ah, I forgot about it. But revelation says, if your name is not found in the book of life, you're out. And that's crazy to think of, but this is not our universe we're living in.

[John Burke]

It's.

[JoJo Morris]

It's much greater than that. God's got a plan. And I start. I see that my angel pulls out this huge notebook. It's super thick. And there's. I Could see thousands of little names written on him. And he was reading them off, you know, Dan, Daniel, Kaylin, Rebecca, Kayla. He started naming all these names off, you know, Hannah, Joseph. And when he said Joseph, I was like, maybe I should claim that one. But I knew my name was Joseph. It's officially Joe, which is why I talk about that at the beginning. And it's like, I can't just claim someone's name. Like, this is the final part. And part of me started feeling attached to this. This presence of holiness, this presence of, like, peace. There was nothing bad going on around me, and I wanted that, that. But I knew the same angel that took me there could take me away. And so as he's reading through this, I'm just, like, surrendering again in my own inner thoughts. I'm like, I will surrender to whatever outcome happens. There's no out of this. There's no can't lie my way out of this. Whatever happens happens. And right that point of surrender, I hear this booming voice around me, JoJo. And I eyes wide open. And I jump. I was already on my feet, but I pretty much jumped to my feet again. And God's off his throne, and he's standing now in front of me, and he's like, jojo, I've brought you here to show you who I truly am. And he says so much, and it's hard to, like, get everything packed into what he told me there at the beginning, but basically told me this. You've been angry, you've been hurt. And he showed me, this is how I actually view you. So the eyes of love. And he started my life all the way over. From the very beginning, the screams went back up. And I watched my life from his eyes. I of me as a child. He breathing life into my lungs. My parents loving me, them going through so many hardships, financial hardships. And God was there through every season of my life, like, impressing his. His touch on my life, giving me gifts, giving me talents, working through my broken parents, working through them to try to give me the best life they could. He showed me that, you know, my parents tried to give me a good life. He even showed me a vision of me giving, like, a glass of water to my sibling. And I noticed that he would show me when I would help a neighbor, neighbor, like, harvest, you know, something on their fruit trees or we. I would help help my neighbor do farm and work later on in life. And he just showed me all these good moments when he was working through me. And it was joyful. It was good. He showed me when I took care of my older brother, my handicapped brother. And he showed me all these moments of joy, of like this life. He showed me when I had near death misses when a gun went off and almost took my head out one time. It was a small gun, but it was like he showed me how his angel, guardian angel had protected that. And I started realizing that while I was watching this, a lot is happening. I look around and I'm realizing that like the angels are rejoicing. And so I'm watching my life go and it, it goes all to the end. But it's not sadness anymore. It's like God saw in my life what I thought was bad as good. He saw me as, as, as his chosen young son. He saw me as lovable. I wasn't non redeemable. And I started realizing as the angels were shooting off these giant rocket launchers and just, just praising God, saying, holy is the lamb that was slain. All glory and honor to his name. They would sing it over and over again. This music started booming out of the, in that, that throne room area. And I think I was in, I read the scriptures and I think I was in like one small side room. Like my eyes were shielded because if I, I know if I would have seen the full glory of God, I wouldn't be here. But I was able to see this part of it.

[WSECU/Weight Watchers/Grainger Announcer]

WSECU isn't just one of Washington's best credit unions. We're a Forbes Best in State five years running. Why? Because we put you first. Lower fees, early paydays, financial guidance and service second to none. As a member owned cooperative, we love Washington as much as you do. From the Olympic mountains to the rolling Palouse. Join us and discover how much we care about your financial well being. Because. Because what we really do best is invest in you. Visit wsecu.org today to learn more. Washington let's credit union if you work

[John Burke]

in university maintenance, Grainger considers you an MVP because your playbook ensures your arena is always ready for tip off. And Grainger is your trusted partner, offering the products you need all in one place. From H Vac and plumbing supplies to lighting and more. And all delivered with plenty of time left on the clock.

[JoJo Morris]

So your team always gets the win.

[John Burke]

Call 1-800-granger. Visit grainger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.

[JoJo Morris]

A very dumbed down version. But God is now in front of me and he's healing me. And it was like this big rainbow laser fusion beam that was hitting my body similar to what I now know as, like an avenger, like shield, where, you know, two forces will collide and there's like this slag boosting off each end. And I saw lying, cheating, anger, shame. All those years of bedwetting, 20 plus years of bedwetting. All the mountain of shame that you carry with you, just gone. All the hurt, all the abuse I had felt at this point just now is like, melting away. And I start weeping. I start crying my eyes out as this young man going, like, why did the God of the universe decide to take me from my pain and bring me into his loving arms? And. And I. As the tears started falling, I saw them disappear before they would hit the ground. They wouldn't splat. And I saw him catching them, and I was like, you're catching my tears. And he's like, I've caught every single tear you've cried. And I knew, wow. Every single other tear that everyone on earth had cried. And I saw in my mind that he was omnipresent. He had been with me every step of the way, and that the only way the enemy could hurt him was to hurt me. And the only way the enemy could cause God pain is to take away little infants. And it's just like God's like, it's not me killing these babies. It's not me hurting you. We're in a. In. The time will come when all that will be wiped away. But it's just for a short season. And I don't understand why that season hasn't come yet, where God just comes down and makes everything right. But evidently more people need to hear about his love and more people still need to have their redemption story told. So I knew that the time was not yet. And I don't know when that time is, when God will come back. But I know at this moment that I felt loved, I felt forgiven. And even now, I feel like God is washing away the hurt again. And I feel my sins forgiven again. And it just whelms my soul with gratitude that a heavenly father that I thought was angry, that wanted to hit me on the head every time I did something wrong, was a loving father that just wanted to hold me in his arms and heal me of my brokenness. And, yeah, my anger away, took my gut issues away, took all these things away, which I find out later. I'll tell you more about that. But he.

[John Burke]

You mean like when. When you came back, all that was gone?

[JoJo Morris]

Oh, there's a. There's a miracle right there. I'll share that in a moment. Well, during this healing experience, I'm in heaven. The angels are singing. It's like secular music that made me feel very uncomfortable, but yet I knew it was holy. It's like Lauren Daigle meets Coldplay meets Lecrae meets Jamie Grace. Like, it's just this music, just like artists that was like three bands playing at once. Yet it all made sense and felt beautiful. But yet my little part of me was like, oh, the elders wouldn't approve of this. And then I'm like, I'm in heaven with my creator. It's good. And sinning was just gone. There was no. There was no. Like, There was no fiery darts of those intrusive thoughts. Those intrusive thoughts were gone. And I looked down, I noticed I had new body. And I was now, like, the same size as my angel. And it was just like. I just felt renewed. It was similar size. And the angel that was with me was just telling God story after story of my life. And I realized he was.

[John Burke]

So you think that was your guardian?

[JoJo Morris]

I know he was my guardian angel. And God assigns every single one of us an angel. He says, I'll command my angels to watch over you. And I was just blown away. They were laughing about my adolescence. They, God thought it was hilarious, you know, when I was, like, finding out that I'm, you know, man. And, you know, it's just like, there was nothing shameful. It was.

[John Burke]

You mean all the. Yeah, all the things that people are worried about and all that.

[JoJo Morris]

Yeah, everything. What we tried to hide as a society is just like, gosh, like, I created your body to function and you are perfectly fine. And it was. They were laughing about a memory. They were chuckling back and forth and about a memory of my parents. I think it was my ninth birthday. And my parents. He showed me a snapshot of them around the corner of our house, like, trying to remember my age because they had, like, six of us at the time. Like, wait, how old is JoJo again today? And God, so funny that my parents just for a brief moment, had to ask themselves, like, wait, what. What age is he? And obviously my parents love me. They didn't forget my age.

[John Burke]

Don't.

[JoJo Morris]

Please don't run. Yeah, but God showed, like, an inner combo that they had with just each other that I didn't know about. And so obviously they brought the cake out and I. We had a great birthday celebration. I think they got me some great gifts, but I know they got me some great gifts because my parents truly loved me, even through all the broken things. But it was crazy to sort of hear these conversations going back and forth. And so I saw the joyful side of God at this point, and then I saw the inventor side of God next. He started showing off, almost like, jojo, hey, where do you think, like, the pump idea came from? Like, the electric pump on Earth? Like, where do you think that came from? And I was like, I don't know, show me. And he's like, show me a photo of a heart. And these men had figured out how to dissect it, and they figured out the pumping mechanisms and they had made an exact replica. And he showed me a, like a vision of people on Earth pumping water out of a pond for the first time. And I'm like, I'm experiencing. And they were like, these grown men jumping around like, hey, we invented. He's sort of like, winks. He's like, I didn't see him wink, but I could feel the wink. He's like, I'm the one that inspired that. And the lesson was this silly like, side was like, like, God inspires us to do good. You know, like, the ability for us to make beautiful medical inventions and write new songs and, you know, for the moms to figure out how to sleep train their kids and, you know, for the doctors that are, you know, Ben Carson, like, figured out how to take those two twins apart. He stopped their hearts and. And surgically removed them and then restarted their hearts, like, successfully first saving those twins. And he wrote the book Gifted Hands. Like God showed me. Like, he didn't. He had inspired every single part of that process.

[John Burke]

Well, and, you know, even, like Einstein and others who have. Who've had these paradigm shifting understandings, you know, we think they. They just sat around thinking about it, but most of them say no. It just came to me, like, in a moment.

[JoJo Morris]

Yeah. Yeah. And I realized, I thought that.

[John Burke]

Yeah. I've wondered about that if kind of like, you know, God allows at certain points. Okay. Like, okay. It's like, I mean, even AI, you know, and we can debate it's good and it's bad, but. But I think it could be that he's saying, okay, you know, here goes, and he allows things to expand, and we exponentially can use them for more good, but we can also exponentially use them for more evil. And, you know, that's the choice of mankind.

[JoJo Morris]

Yeah. And I have my own philosophy that I'm really trying to make sure is biblically sound before I share it, like, publicly on why evil exists on Earth. But I Do know that there is a arch enemy of God who tried to take over heaven, who God had given one of the best gifts to have and pride took over that person's life or that angel's life anyway. So the only way that Satan can hurt us is by hurting God's children, which is something that was mind blowing. And so because there's free will, God's not going to be meddling in everyone's life and controlling the narrative because then we're robots, we don't really have a choice.

[John Burke]

And isn't that, isn't that interesting? Because it's actually the opposite of what happens when religion goes bad. When religion goes wrong, people start to try to control people and take away their free will. And that's exactly what God gave us so we can freely love him and love each other.

[JoJo Morris]

Yeah, it's a, it's a more, it's a more beautiful movie when the people in the movie have free will. If you want to look at it that way, if it was a, a movie that everything was so controlled, we would want them to be free, human nature free. So if you have a free will being that's made in the image of God, want to love God back, that's even more of a miracle. And so this whole story of redemption is being woven into each one of our lives. And when God says even nature itself knows who God is, each one of us has a image in our soul of what we should be seeing.

[John Burke]

Yeah, well, and I think it's so fascinating. Back, back to. It's almost like these two Life reviews, right? And the first one is your judgment. It's like this is life according to the religious, you know, the religious and the self righteous and the, and he shows you the darkness of it and then he shifts and he shows you your life all over again. And his, his grace and his forgiveness and his goodness and the, the touches of all the, all the good he's done in you and, and through you as well. Is that, do you think that's, that's what he was doing in that?

[JoJo Morris]

Oh, absolutely. He's showing me a self righteous view basically showing me like how, how much it sucks to have this self righteous view. And then what his view is over my life, like through the lens of what God sees us versus the lens of what man, humanity, will, will put on themselves. And so I'm in this experience, I'm still at this point, I thought a few more days had, you know, more days had gone past and it's just feeling that I belong now, like I have found my home. And I felt purpose start going through my heart again. I felt a light. When God spoke, it wasn't just from around me. I now heard his voice within me. And it was, it was so. It was so much fun to experience because you have access to unlimited genius. You have access to unlimited ideas. And God's the God that wants you to know and for you to feel your purpose. And so therefore he's not going to control your life even in a heavenly setting. So now I'm there and God starts rolling out the next chapter of my life in heaven. He's like, you're going to be learning. And he said, you're gonna, you're gonna know my word. The first assignment was to know his word. And so he took a lesson illustration of what I'd be learning. And he just pulled this like huge filing cabinet out. I could see it. And he took one word and it was word righteous. And behind that word righteous was so many meanings of it. It meant so much more than to be stuck up and to hit people over the head with the Bible.

[WSECU/Weight Watchers/Grainger Announcer]

It meant WSECU isn't just one of Washington's best credit unions. We're a Forbes best in state five years running. Why? Because we put you first. Lower fees, early paydays, financial guidance and service second to none. As a member our own cooperative, we love Washington as much as you do. From the Olympic mountains to the rolling Palouse. Join us and discover how much we care about your financial well being. Because what we really do best is invest in you. Visit wsecu.org today to learn more.

[JoJo Morris]

Washington let's credit union to love deeply, to be connected to an all ever like, to be connected to the life source, to be clothed with Righteous had so much more meanings behind it other than what our English language is. Righteous. It was alive. Righteous was a just one word. So I knew that if I start diving into the word of God, the written word of God, I would have a whole new version of what God really meant with everything he spoke. Because we have his actual recorded words in the scripture, which is wild to really think about. And there's so much like every time you read the scriptures, you get something new out of it. It. Yeah, but I'm realizing that.

[John Burke]

Well, it's so interesting too. It was like righteous is what you were trying to be exactly in a religious way. And he's showing you. No, no, no, it's, it's so much more than, than just you making the effort to prove you're good. It's. It's connecting to the source of life. It's being clothed in my righteousness. Right, His. His what he gives us.

[JoJo Morris]

Exactly. And, you know, at this point, I'm remembering some of, like, the sorrow I had on earth again. So it was like I had a flashback because I'm. I'm. I'm in heaven, but I'm a being that came from Earth, and so I don't have just, like, this clear hard drive. And so God instantly felt that sorrow in my heart of, like, feeling like I needed to say goodbye. Like, I needed to feel like I was missing something. But I was so grateful that I was in heaven. He just, like, said. Said, no, no, you don't need to feel that anymore. And he just, like, took those feelings away. And I knew he took care of them. And I instantly felt joy again. And it wasn't an artificial joy. It was the highest dopamine hit you could ever feel. But it was sustained adrenaline where I knew this was now my new base level and that there was a whole new level of joy that my brain was going to be unlocked. And so, yeah, the first lesson was that I would be able to know God's word. The second one, he was like, I'm going to teach you music. And that's when I knew, at this point, I already knew God was good, but that's when I knew he was really good. And he truly took an interest in what I loved in my life. And yes, Jojo loves business. He loves building things, he loves influencing people positively. He loves I love Chick Fil A. You know, there's a lot of cool things that Jojo loves, but he knows I love music. And he told me that there was, like, this first music lesson was I was also assigned another angel, and it looked like a woman angel. And I. In heaven, there's no, like, attractions towards people, but I knew I was assigned a woman angel. And so she's next to me, and my guardian angel is also with me. And we're walking together, and the gates of the throne room area open up. And that's why I know my eyes were shielded, because there's so many more parts of heaven that I did not see. Even Paul saw parts of heaven that I didn't see. But there's this huge hill, finely manicured grass, and I'm walking up this hill, and the first lesson hits, and it's a five octave. Like, he showed me that I know four parts of music, but God was showing me there's another level. And even the bird A bird flew into our view. There's animals in heaven, which is why I know my dog will be there one day. But I, I look at, I look at this bird and I start hearing a tune come from it. And all of heaven changes gears. Mind you, the music is still pulsing. It's like aligned with the heartbeat of God. I knew it was the beat was God's heartbeat. It was an excited heartbeat because when God would get excited, the music would start playing faster and then when he would get calm, it would go back down to his normal rhythm. When I would get exc. God would get excited. It was like this ripple effect of just perfect harmony. This bird sings this tune and all of heaven switches gears and starts playing part of the melody that that bird hears. And I've tried to recreate it over and over again, but it's like it's part of me that's blocked. I can't, I can't grasp that melody again. But I know it just, it felt so euphoric. It was just beautiful. And the lesson was five part harmony. And then the next lesson pulled in right after that and it was 10 part harmony. And that's when I knew that there's octaves that our human ears can't hear, that even whale, whales can hear, elephants can hear on Earth, that there's animals on earth that sing in different octaves that humans can't hear. And that's when I knew that God had ways of invoking emotion in heaven that were way beyond our range, giving you pretty much infinite composing, which is wild to think about because we're sort of limited to our range counter, but there's infinite composing. And so at that moment I'm in absolute joy. I remember just laughing so, so loud. And while I'm laughing I could hear this big construction site going on over on the other side of the hill. And I, I remember hearing like people's mind you, my hearing still very supersonic at this point. I could hear people planning like big parts of the city. I could hear children laughing and I knew had God had given them a new life, a life that they were able to receive on earth. And I remember feeling like there's a huge project going on and people were purpose filled. This is a place where you could tour for eternity and you could get your set design so down that God himself would turn and look, be like, wow, that's creative. We didn't think of that yet, you know, but you got the idea from God already. But he comes down to your level and makes it so personable and engages with you on that human level. And at this point, I wake up. I had been asleep for about.

[John Burke]

Well, wait, before you wake up, I already woke up. So what? So you're. So you're saying. You're saying that God was showing you, you thought you were there for good?

[JoJo Morris]

I thought this was permanent.

[John Burke]

Yeah.

[WSECU/Weight Watchers/Grainger Announcer]

Yes.

[JoJo Morris]

And I'm smiling, but yeah.

[John Burke]

You thought you were being shown kind of future purpose and what you would be doing.

[JoJo Morris]

I didn't thought, like, this was my reality. Like, I was being taught what I would learn for the rest of eternity. And so they were just queuing up my lessons to sort of giving me a heads up. Hey, heads up. This is the lesson you're going to be learning. Heads up. This is what you're going to be studying. And it was, like, excited. I was like, whoa, wow. Like, this is something I've never thought of before. And yet I was. My learning capabilities were unlocked. Like, there was no attention issues. And I. When I share this story, I really want to be careful. Like, I can talk about a lot of the details, but this is a God that's redeeming the gifts he gave me. This is a God that's choosing to engage with my gifts instead of being like, you know what, Jojo? Heaven really needs a new sewer system. You know, it actually just trans. I'm not saying there's no sewer system in heaven, but I'm just saying, like, maybe an under tunnel, maybe a tunnel system. God wasn't like, I want you to design a new underground, you know, theater. God was like, you like music? You're gonna do that, you know?

[John Burke]

Well, because he. He probably is the one who first gave you that gift, don't you think?

[JoJo Morris]

Absolutely.

[John Burke]

Yeah.

[JoJo Morris]

And so now I understand one other thing.

[John Burke]

So. So you. You heard the music of heaven and you said reminded you of some of the.

[WSECU/Weight Watchers/Grainger Announcer]

The.

[John Burke]

The modern music on earth that your elders were saying was satanic.

[JoJo Morris]

Oh, absolutely. So this is where. This is where I know without a shadow of doubt that God gives people really, really beautiful masterpieces. The thing is, is the enemy also knows music really well. And he's using the talents and gifts that God gives these people. And you're allowed to, as a human, because of free will, you're allowed to channel that in a very evil way or a good way way. So at any moment, you could be like, we're gonna glorify God with this, or we're gonna glorify the devil or glorify yourself. And so there's this constant battle of Knowing where that meter is at, and that's where I've just been. I, I've come to realize that there's some music that I've written. There's not that glorifying to God, but there's hundreds of songs that bring glory to him. And so I'm starting to see a little bit of how I can meter myself. I might be pushing it. It's not going to like be detrimental. It's fun. But really, what, what do we need to focus on?

[John Burke]

Well, and did you get a sense, because it seemed like God gave you this gift when you were on earth, you start to birth it. It starts to birth kind of a spiritual awakening in, in some of the other students and all that. And then it gets slapped down. Did you get any insight into what that was about while you were in heaven?

[JoJo Morris]

Oh, absolutely. And this is why I have clarity now with what happened was I saw the enemy was trying to push that down and suppress it through the people that loved me. You know, they were trying to raise me. And I knew that all the oppression that my parents were going through was because God has given them gifts and that the enemy is trying to suppress those gifts. And so I had so many like supernatural revelations while I was in heaven. And even like one of the revelations I had was about my brother. I don't usually speak about this a lot, but my brother's handicapped. He's got the mind of a five year old on the outside. But I had it revealed to me that he's going to have such an elevated role in the, in the next realm because of this. He, of what he's gone through. Basically the enemy somehow has trapped him in this body. But Michael, my brother, basically, he knows in his spirit he has a deeper connection with God than I could even imagine on earth right now.

[John Burke]

Wow.

[JoJo Morris]

So it is a surprise.

[John Burke]

And, and that was, that was shown to you in heaven?

[JoJo Morris]

Yes, one of the revelations I had. And so it was just like mind blowing to think of this where you have, you have this revelation of what's going on in someone's life and you can't tell them because they, they don't like respond to it. But my brother, he, he's like, read the Bible probably, I want to say over 50 times or more, maybe more than that. I grew up most of my years just seeing him read through his Bible and he would listen to audiobooks and he would just follow along with his line. He's got a mix between autism and down syndrome. It's a little different than Most people are used to. But he can stay on a task for hours and just read and read and read. He wore out multiple Bibles and I just know he loves God's word so much. Inspiring. Wow.

[John Burke]

Yeah. Yeah.

[JoJo Morris]

Back to, back to the experience. You know, I'm in heaven. I'm experiencing the most joyful part of my life. I'm seeing these lessons that are coming, showing me what I'm going to be doing for all of eternity. I'm happy, I feel fulfilled. I'm okay with being away from Earth. I've gotten rid of the sort God's taken the sorrow way of saying goodbye. And then I wake up and 29 minutes had passed. John. And feeling desperation hit me like a. A train going at 70 miles an hour down a train track. I was just like, when you. My hearing closed up. I remember rolling off my bad and bed and grabbing the carpet and just screaming, no, no, no, no. Why am I back? Why am I here? Why am I here? Like I. God, like what, what was that for? Like, I just experienced something and I thought I was gone for close to four or five days, even longer. But when I saw My alarm was 29 minutes had passed. And so my brother ended up running in later and was asking me what was going on. And I told him as much as I could. I jumbled out. I wrote a really rough sketch of everything I experienced. And I was having a really hard time like writing the details down, which about four years ago I gave a really detailed account of everything I experienced. I'm really grateful that I gave that detailed experience. But from, you know, 2017 to 2021, I didn't share it with almost anyone. I kept it very quiet because I was like, I couldn't. I didn't understand how to process it. About six months in, six months later, I ended up leaving the colony. I knew God was calling me on. And then that's when you know, happy go, Lucky Jojo. Well, when I woke up, I didn't know at the time. But within a month I realized that I wasn't bedwetting anymore. I could eat wheat without getting a gluten reaction. And my. The depression I'd felt was gone. So those three miracles in my life were just mind blowing to experience. One was internal that no one knew about, but two were physically external. And within that same month, two of my other brothers stopped bedwetting as well. Like the curse had been broken. My relationship with my parents is still horrible. A lot of betrayal happened at that time. I ended up leaving my older Sister where we had ostracized, took me in, in her house.

[John Burke]

House.

[JoJo Morris]

I got a new start, got a construction job. It just started floundering around, just trying to figure out how to live in the world because at this point, I had been completely provided for. I didn't ecosystem of where we took care of each other. And now I'm in the harsh world where you can't just buy everyone's meal at a, at a, at a restaurant and, and walk out, you know, and expand financially next week. You know, you gotta.

[John Burke]

Yeah, so that must have, yeah, it must have been a, like a, like a shock.

[JoJo Morris]

Yeah. So, I mean, right off the bat, I got a bunch of credit card dad. I was like free money, you know, and, and I just started educating myself financially and I was like, okay, this is not gonna work. So by the time I got married in 2020, I was officially debt free. My wife and I, we got married in California. She has been a huge part of our redemption story. Right around 2020 is when my parents and I started healing our relationship, our relationship again. My dad wrote a letter to his children, you know, apologizing for a lot of things that happened when we're younger. And I've forgiven him. You know, he's a man. He tried to raise us in the fear of God. I have a lot of respect for my parents and yeah, you know, my sister's story is for them to tell. I love them so much. They're, they're, they're my heroes. They've inspired me to, you know, get my business degree and from college. But I mean, it's like we've all going through these things in life where we go through hardships together, but when you come out the other end and you're realizing how beautiful life is when you fall in the Lord and you seek forgiveness, like there's. I don't hate my parents anymore. I love them. We have a really great, converse, great relationship now. It's been redeemed from me getting screamed at over the phone by my mom back in the earlier days to now. I'm gonna call here in a few hours and check in and just have a good talk, you know. But God's word, that's awesome. My parents no longer live in the colony. They live, they live somewhere else. And so I struggle with feeling like I waste time. I struggle with feeling like I don't, I can't do enough. But then I always go back to realize God is my heavenly father, he loves me dearly, I'm his son. And I'm good. And I'm gonna continue to walk in that grace. I'm gonna continue to walk in that righteousness. When I fail, I get back up again. And he doesn't call me to live in sin. He calls me to move on from it and to freedom.

[John Burke]

Man, what an amazing, fascinating story, huh? And so many things to talk about, but we can't talk about all of them. You know, one, I was a drummer in a band and then a guitarist. So I love it that they're rocking out in heaven now. For some of you, that sounds weird. It seems impossible, maybe just wrong. Just like JoJo felt, maybe due to your religious training. So I want to talk for a second really about religion and religion versus relationship with God and how do they fit together? You know, I've heard people say things like, well, I'm not into religion, I'm into spirituality. Okay, well what does that mean? Or I've heard people say, well, religion is the problem. It's the problem. It's the cause of all the world's problems. Well, no, humans are pretty much. And that you can find them in religion and out of religion. I've heard Christians also who don't go to church anymore because they've been burned by religion. And if, if just like JoJo said, you know, God really wants relationship, then what's the point of religion? Let's talk about some of these things. Well, first of all, I want to address why did the angel tell Jojo it's judgment time? You know, that's not really that common with an NDE and then God with a coffee mug. Not common at all. All right, so let me just say, you know, I'm still. I'm always skeptical. I was an engineer. I just think this way. Sorry. I've studied about 1,500 near death experiences, and if I don't hear things repeated as commonalities in these NDE accounts, you know, I just kind of go, well, maybe I don't really know now. Interestingly though, I have in many near death experience accounts heard of God doing something like this. So I think, you know, he knows all these people are coming back to earth. And in some cases it's almost like he gives them parables or acts out examples. Reminds me of how Jesus taught when he was on Earth, right? And so JoJo gets this visual parable of what religious judgment looks like if viewing himself only through this lens of rule based, legalistic religion. It's ugly and it appears almost like God set him up, right? Because he's holding A coffee mug, just to draw out JoJo's religious judgmental spirit and put it on trial. But not to condemn Jojo, to set him free, to set him free of that religious spirit. Because God wants Jojo to know his great love for him. He wants him to understand that God has given him gifts and not to let people suppress those. And he wants him to use them in freedom. So God asked the question, is his name in the book of life? And the book of life is where every name is recorded in heaven of those who have given their life back to God. They've surrendered their life to God. They've asked forgiveness through Christ. They've invited God to come be God, to be the leader of their life. And those names are in recorded in the book of life. And I want to ask you, have you simply told God? Yes, I want what Jesus did to count for me. You know, he. He died to pay for all our wrongs so we don't have to. And if we just tell him, I want that, I want your forgiveness and love and come lead my life, that's all God says he needs. He just needs your permission. And then he adopts you into his family forever. Now, that's possible only because of what Jesus did when he paid for all our wrongs, past, present and future on the cross. But it's simply a gift. And a gift, you either receive it and accept it or you push it away. I hope if you haven't yet, you will just tell him in your heart, receive it. That's all it takes. Well, Interestingly so in JoJo's first life review, he sees kind of his judgment for all his wrongs. But then God says, is his name in the book of life. And it was. And then God gives him a second life review. And I believe that this was so JoJo could see how God now viewed him through Christ. In other words, because Jesus had paid for all his sins and wrongs, God doesn't view him that way anymore. He doesn't see him that way. He sees him, and he sees you as well as his beloved child. That even though we may stumble and fall, he picks us up like a good father and helps us move forward and celebrates every good deed. So God set JoJo free of this religious legalism. You know, it's interesting because the whole book of Galatians in the New Testament is about this. It's about religious rules and legalism versus what God has done for us to set us free in Christ. And let me just say, if you grew up in a Very real rigid, legalistic religious group. Read the book of Galatians in the New Testament. You know what was going on is people were trying to impose a lot of rules on these new followers of Jesus in Galatia. And Paul writes this. He says in Galatians 5, 1, it is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm then and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke, yoke of slavery. In other words, don't be burdened by a yoke of religious to do's. And do you realize that Jesus came to set us free from religious rules and regulations, which is incredibly freeing when you realize that God is not putting a bunch of burdens on you or trying to make you prove that you're good enough. He took those off you in Christ. And that's why Paul goes on to say in Galatians 5, 6, for in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision, which was the debate of that day, what do you have to do? Be circumcised or like for our day, maybe be baptized or don't do this or don't do that. He says, none of that has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. See, God wants relationship and relationship comes through faith or trust and love in God, not trying to prove yourself good enough with rule following. Okay, so does that mean God doesn't care about morality or ethics or any, you know, what we do? It's kind of like put your faith in Jesus and then just live like hell? No, not at all. And the New Testament explains this very clearly. And right there in Galatians 5, Paul goes on in verse 13 and says, you my brothers and sisters, were called to be free, but don't use your freedom to indulge the flesh just to, you know, go indulge sinful desires and harm yourself and one another. Rather serve one another humbly in love. For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command. Love your neighbor as yourself. See, that's what it's all about. It's all about love. Loving God first and then loving one another. And God wants you to know his great love. But see, instead of trying to prove you're good enough, there's a whole other way to grow, to become a better person, a more ethical, loving, self controlled person from the inside out. And that's what Paul goes on to explain in Galatians 5. 6. So I say, walk by the Spirit, the Spirit of God, and you will not gratify the desires of the Flesh, the sin, nature, you won't do it. But the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance or patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control. See, God wants you to know his great love so that you will stay connected daily walking with him, with his spirit. We've talked about that, how to do that in past episodes. And if you just do that, the bad sinful junk starts to be less and less desirable. It just starts to fade away. I've seen this in my own life. And then good fruit like love and kindness and peace and joy and self control start to grow from the inside out. It's a better way. It's really the only way. See, religious do gooding, like trying hard to prove yourself or do good or be good, as Dallas Willard says, is kind of like finding a tree and tying apples on the branches and saying, look at this apple tree. Tree, it's not an apple tree, you know, and that fruit won't last. A real healthy apple tree doesn't have to work hard to produce apples. They grow naturally as the branches just stay connected to the source. And same with you as you stay connected to the source of life, God's spirit who is with you and will guide you over time, those old things start to fade away and good fruit starts to grow from within naturally. Okay, well, one more quick question. How does God feel then about religion? Is it good? Is it bad? Well, first I'd like to remind you if you're someone who's been burned by religion or burned by religious people, what I often tell people who have experienced that is, well, just remember it was legalistic religious rule, following Pharisees who crucified Jesus. Okay, so religion gone bad is bad. Yes, it's not God's will or way. But don't reject Jesus because you've been burned by religious people. He was too. Right. And in fact, if that's you, I want to challenge you to read the eyewitness accounts of Jesus life in the New Testament. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. See what Jesus is really like. You'll fall in love with him, you'll

[JoJo Morris]

want to follow him.

[John Burke]

But the second thing is to understand that religion actually does have its place. It's not all bad. Paul explains it this way. In Galatians 3:19, he says, why then was the law given, the moral law given through, you know, the, the Jewish religion? Well, it was added because of transgressions, because of wrongs, until the seed that's referring to Messiah, to whom the promise referred had come in Other words, is all religion bad? No, no. There is a moral law component that is good and that was given until Jesus would come and we would realize that he had. Had taken all that off our shoulders. So what is the good part? Well, religion teaches us right and wrong. And it's very interesting because there's a basic moral law that's found in all the religious texts of the world. It's pretty much like the Ten Commandments of the Jewish Scriptures, the Old Testament. C.S. lewis, a literary scholar, outlined what that law is. It's found in pretty much every culture for all time.

[JoJo Morris]

Time.

[John Burke]

Don't do harm to another human by what you do or say. The golden rule. Honor your father and mother. Be kind toward brothers, sisters, children and the elderly. Don't have sex with another person's spouse. Be honest in all your dealings. Don't steal, do not lie. Care for those weaker or less fortunate. And dying to self is the path to life. Okay, so think about this. In all cultures, for all times, we've known the moral law. We've known basic right and wrong. It's in all our religions, in all our cultures. And have we kept it? No. Watch the news. So religion and moral law can do something. It can show us right from wrong, basically, and it can help us not overdo how much we harm one another, but it can't change the human heart. And that's the real issue. So Galatians goes on and says, so the law was our guardian. Literally. It's like a child tutor until Christ came that we might be justified or set right with God by faith. And now that faith has come, we're no longer under the guardian. We're no longer under religion and the law. We don't have to live by religious rules and regulations. You know, they were our tutor. They were like a teacher or a guardian to keep us from harming each other too much, you know. But now that there is faith, we can live in harmony with God, in relationship with God, who can change our hearts from the inside out. So we live in harmony, in loving relationship with one another more and more. Well, what about church? I mean, I was a pastor for, you know, 27 years, longer even. Am I saying church is unnecessary? Well, it's not necessary for relationship with God, but church is God's idea. And I think that's important to understand. So no going to church or doing this or that is not necessary for relationship with God. But Jesus said this. I will build my church. It's his church. And the gates of Hades will not overcome it. See, church is not a building. It's not a worship service. It's not a set of rules or behaviors. It's a community of people learning how to better love God so that we better love each other and then work together with our diverse gifts and abilities to serve the world around us, just like Jesus did. So it's important because it's God's idea and it's how we grow and love one another and push back evil and work hard to make a difference in the world. So don't check out of church just because it's hard or even if you've been burned by religion. Follow Christ, follow Jesus and connect to community and live as we know he intended us to. Well, I know that's a lot, but it's a hot topic. You know, religion, relationship, all that. I hope it helps you with your spiritual growth. And if it does, share it. Share it with other people. Subscribe, like it, you know, help spread the message of what God's trying to do through all humanity. And if you want to go deeper into topics of near death experiences in the Bible and faith, check out my books. You can get them on audiobook as well. But until next time, be blessed.