← Imagine Heaven Podcast with John Burke
Imagine Heaven Podcast with John Burke
Relationships in the Afterlife: What Near Death Experiences Reveal
01:26:50
Will you still be yourself in Heaven? Will you recognize loved ones? What about marriage—who will you be with? What if there are people you don’t want to see in Heaven? These questions have been asked for centuries, and near-death experiences provide...
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- [00:00]
John Burke
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- [01:54]
Dean
When I looked up, there's my family. Everybody that had been related to me, a part of my family, came to greet me in my grandmother Mary was out front. She was bright, you know, she had a big smile and pure joy.
- [02:07]
Don Piper
57.3% of those having near death experience.
- [02:11]
John Burke
Describe meeting other beings.
- [02:13]
Don Piper
When a deceased loved one is encountered during a near death experience, they may.
- [02:17]
John Burke
Be around the age they died. Or interestingly, they may appear decades younger.
- [02:22]
Dr. Mary Neal
I'm looking at this man who I recognize by my heart, but I knew that that was Pa. He's my great grandfather. Now. Pa was standing next to Ma. I knew her as an old woman when I was a kid. When she was in heaven, she looked to be in her 30s. This was my family. There was nothing stronger than the bonds of this love and unity, which was rooted in the love of God, Heaven.
- [02:54]
John Burke
Is a great reunion. This welcoming committee of people who commonly come and greet people and just imagine that day when they're coming to celebrate you saying, we made it, we're here, you're home, you're finally home. Well, today we're going to talk about the most commonly asked questions that I get after studying thousands of people having had near death experiences. Many of who you're going to hear from today that I've met and studied over the last 35 years as well as I want to share you what I've learned after 30 plus years of studying and teaching the Bible and more importantly counseling many couples and Many people over 30 years of pastoral ministry so that you can see how all these things come together and how the relationships of heaven can help us live better relationships today. And if you'll stick with me to the end, I'm going to answer those most asked questions like will we be married in heaven? Will we hug? Will we kiss? You know, it's fascinating because I think Jesus talks about this welcoming committee that near death experiencers describe in Luke chapter 16 when he says this, use your worldly resources to benefit others and make friends. Then when your possessions are gone, they will welcome you to an eternal home. He's talking about this welcoming committee that, that so many near death experiencers describe. And as Dr. Jeff Long, who's become a good friend that you just heard from, indicated and he too has studied thousands of near death experiences like I have, 57% of near death experiencers encounter people and, and this, this welcoming committee, those who have passed on ahead. Well, let's hear from one of them. Dr. Mary Neal is a spine surgeon. She's also become a very close friend of, of mine and, and Kathy's and she has an amazing story. You, you heard more of it in episode two if you had a chance to listen to that. She's an orthopedic surgeon, married to a surgeon they live in, in Jackson Hole, Wyoming, which I want to point out, these people have nothing to gain making up these crazy wild stories of dying. And yet Dr. Neal has eyewitnesses that her kayak was penned under a waterfall for 30 minutes. She was dead for 30 minutes. Listen as she talks about first being held by Jesus and then being escorted by this welcoming committee up to the gates of this heavenly city. You're greeted by this welcoming committee. What was it? That's what some people talk about.
- [05:36]
Kathy
I absolutely knew that they were there to welcome me and greet me and make me feel loved and comfortable. And I also Knew that they were there to protect me.
- [05:47]
John Burke
Protect you from what?
- [05:48]
Kathy
I don't know.
- [05:49]
John Burke
But you knew that?
- [05:51]
Kathy
I absolutely knew that. That was part of it. Even though I don't know from what they were protecting me. They had physical form like humans. They had head, arms, legs. They were wearing. But they were absolutely exploding with a pure, pure love. And it was as though they were sort of like the northern lights in that they were of a physical form, but the edges were a little indistinct. They were radiating a brilliance that is certainly indescribable. It's sort of translucent, pearlescent, shimmery light. A brilliance of light just exploding. And the light was not just something you would see. If you look at the sun, you see light, and it's blinding. This was really a light born out of love. I don't know quite how else to explain it.
- [07:02]
John Burke
So from your experience of these people, what's your sense of what relationship is like?
- [07:09]
Kathy
Well, that's really clear, because there is no doubt that the only thing that truly matters is loving God and being a window through which God's light can shine to this world and loving each other.
- [07:28]
John Burke
So, I mean, from your experience, you think you will recognize your husband and your kids?
- [07:34]
Kathy
Oh, you mean after, afterward, when we're all there? Yes, I absolutely think that people who are important in our life, and I'm not really sure what the right word is, but our life circle, and it may be relatives or it may be people that come into our lives for a very brief period of time and have a profound impact. Those may also be part of our life's neighborhood. I don't know how to describe it, but, yes, I do think that we are all still there in heaven. I think that we do recognize each other. I was able to see many again. People, angels, spirits. I'm not sure. Very busy. And I don't know what they were doing inside. The architect inside, they were all very busy. I don't know what they were doing, but they were doing something and clearly doing God's work.
- [08:37]
John Burke
So was it like a city bustling with light?
- [08:41]
Kathy
It was. Bustling is a great word for it. I didn't particularly look around because I was focused on what was happening to me immediately. I looked through and could see all this bustling people bustling about. And when I arrived, there was this momentary acknowledgement and not cheering, but almost like fantastic welcome and this outpouring of love for me. And again, it was this profound sense of wow. Not only do I not deserve this, but it was this Profound sense of understanding that that is how each person is greeted. I mean, there are billions of us, but that is how much God loves each person.
- [09:38]
John Burke
Heaven is not a boring place. It's a place of relationship, of fun, of activity, of events and parties and work and projects and creativity. But we're doing it together, all bathed in the love and the life of God, all together in harmony. And just imagine what that's going to be like without all the earth drama that we create around relationships caused by comparison and jealousy. Because. Because we're all trying to prove ourselves right, trying to feel valuable or important or loved. But see, in the kingdom of God, love rules. And so everyone knows who they are. They know how valued, important and loved they are by God. And so that creates relationship in an order of magnitude better. But what's important to realize is we can have more of that relationship of heaven on earth as we learn to live in that truth. Because it's already true about you, your worth, your value. You're loved more than you can possibly imagine. And as we learn to live in that now, it transforms our relationships on earth. But what are these white robes that are bursting with light? You know, are we going to just be these white robed light people? I'll be honest, you know, I was. I was kind of turned off by this when I first heard near death experiencers talk about it. Because, like, I don't want to be a light being. I want to be me. And I don't want to walk around wearing a white gown all the time. That didn't sound very enjoyable. So if you're like me, relax, okay? It's not always like that. And in Imagine Heaven, I write about the confluence of some of these things that I discovered. First, that sometimes, many times, I think we just look normal. Same clothes, same look that we've always had even here on earth, but healed and better. And these white robes, as I'll explain, have a purpose. So bank president Marv Besteman said he was in this Michigan hospital having had surgery and something went wrong. And he said these two angels came and got him. Here's what he said. Marv says when my angels picked me up, I'd been wearing my blue hospital gown. In the air, I saw I was now wearing a light brown golf shirt, tan pants and shoes. The kind of thing I would wear to take my wife out for dinner. Later, when I would get a glimpse of my precious mother, grandmother, son in law and friends, I would notice that they too were dressed very similar to what they wore when they Lived their lives on this earth standing in a short line of people, he said. A little later, I observed about 35 other people of all nationalities. Some were dressed in what I thought were probably the native costumes of their lands. One man carried a baby in his arms. How, how wonderful God is that in his wisdom he would allow these things that feel comfortable to us on earth to also be available in the life to come, because he wants us to enjoy what we have enjoyed. But even beyond that. And the robes of white are something beyond that. Oh, I think they're worn probably more on special occasion, but they actually allow the glory of God to shine through us. So the glory of God is his light and his love and his light. And these robes are translucent because they allow this transfer not just of light, but of love. So think about this. This is like a relational connectivity that we just don't have here on earth. And this is what Mary is talking about from her welcoming committee. And other near death experiencers have told me the same thing. Now, the Bible actually talks about some of these things. Paul says in Romans 8:17, since we are God's children, we are his heirs. In fact, together with Christ, we are heirs of God's glory. And what is God's glory? Well, John tells us in Revelation 21, the glory of God illuminates the city. And the Lamb referring to Jesus is its light. And the nations will walk in that light. So this light and this love bursting out of people, out of these welcoming committees, this is God's glory and we are sharing it with one another, which relationally connects people in a, in a deeper way. As we'll see, that ends up healing a lot of our relational problems. You know, the very fact that near death experiencers around the globe would see the same thing. Jesus clothed in this robe of light. I interviewed a Jewish woman in Australia who describes Jesus, and she said, I was mesmerized by this, this robe. And I was trying to figure out how can a robe be woven out of light? So there's something more than just the physical wearing of, like I said, allows the sharing of the very love and light of God. And that's what we will begin to experience when this welcoming committee comes. That God's kingdom is the kingdom of relationship. Relationship is what it's all about. It's the kingdom of love. You know, love is actually the currency of heaven. I don't know if you ever thought about that. Love and relationship are the currency of heaven, just like money is the currency of earth. You know, if you Want to. If you really want to get something done, you need money. You, you need money to build big things and, and see things happen. It. Money is prestige, money is power. Right? Money is, it's the currency of earth, but not the currency of heaven. The currency of heaven is, is relationship and love. And that's why investing right now in people, in relationship with God, in relationship with people. You know, Jesus says you're storing up treasures for yourself in heaven. Use your worldly resources, he said, to make friends so that they will welcome you into an eternal home. That really is what it's all about. You know, Moses said that in 1450 BC, but Jesus reiterated it when he was asked, what are the greatest commandments? Matthew 22. They asked, Teacher, which is the most important commandment in the law of Moses? And Jesus replied, you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. But the second is equally important. You can't divide the two. He said, love your neighbor as yourself. The entire law and all the demands of the prophets. In other words, the whole Old Testament, all the books of the Old Testament are based on these two commandments. It's amazing to think about. Jesus is saying, love God and love people. And the rest of the commands of Scripture are commentary. They're commentary on how we actually do that. And it's not always as easy as we think, as we're going to see in a minute. But love is what lasts because love and relationship is the currency of heaven. Well, will we recognize each other in heaven? I mean, will we be ourselves? Same personalities, same jokes, only hopefully funnier. You know, that's one of the big questions that I get after studying thousands of near death experiences. And you know what indie ears commonly say to me is when their welcoming committee comes, yes, if there are friends or family there, they fully recognize each other. They know each other. You know, we still laugh and joke and, and hug. It's. It's like life, only on a deeper level. And here's the amazing thing, is that we know each other by the soul in this life. We recognize each other mainly by what we see on the outside. But imagine the day that you look with spiritual eyes and you see the person. You know, because I'm not just this body, you know, my very being is trying to communicate through this body and so is yours. But many times we hide behind the facade of this body. But imagine when you see a person fully, you know them fully and they know you fully. And that Allows a relationship that. That is so much deeper than we've ever experienced here on this earth. But what will we look like? Will we just be wispy, you know, spirit beings? And the answer is no. We'll. We'll be ourselves. But what I've realized is we appear different ways to each other at different times, just like in this life. Our appearance can vary, right? You don't always wear the same thing. You don't always look the same. I got a haircut. It's not the same as it was when it was longer, but our appearance can change even more in the life to come. And I find that sometimes people appear to one another as whatever they expected. Like they might see them as the last time they saw them. Somewhat older and yet. And yet not looking old. But many times they appear to them around 30 years old. That seems to be the common age of heaven. And what I've come to understand is that God gives us the ability to appear to one another what the other would feel most comfortable with. Listen. As Don Piper describes his welcoming committee. Don was a pastor who was coming home from a retreat just north of Houston, going across a very narrow bridge in a rainstorm when this out of control 18 Wheeler comes over a hill and down the bridge, speeding, swerves and runs directly over his car, completely crushing his car. The police arrived, they checked Don's pulse and pronounced him dead. And then it took 90 minutes for the jaws of Life to come and cut his body out of the car. And yet Don revived after that. And listen to what he said he was experiencing as he instantly is before the same gates of the city that Dr. Neil described. And this unbelievable welcome that he's getting. Listen.
- [20:26]
Don Piper
And I didn't go down a long tunnel. There wasn't a bright light at the end of the tunnel. I didn't have a near, near death experience. Really. If you're dead an hour and a half, you're not nearly dead. I was fully dead. And so I'm just there. I mean, it was just stark. I suddenly was there. And at this magnificent gate. A very large wall, very thick wall, but there's a gate, and it looks like the inside of an oyster. It's a gate made of pearl. Really quite dazzling, Very brilliant, very beautiful. It almost looks like it's pulsating with life. Except I know it's the light reflecting off the gate that makes it look that way because God illuminates heaven.
- [21:10]
John Burke
What was the light like?
- [21:11]
Don Piper
So brilliant that I would have been blinded by it with earthly eyes. So we're basking in this magnificent glow of God and Jesus. So I'm in this light and I could make out in front of me a whole crew of people, a welcoming committee, if you will. I'm surrounded by people that I had known and loved in life. And everybody looked really good, fully recognizable as themselves, but perfect because many of them in Earth had been very infirm. They'd been quite old. They were actually missing things here, and they were back there. I mean, my grandfather is extending his hands to me and saying, welcome home, Donnie, in a language I've never heard before but fully understood. And I looked down and three fingers were missing on this hand and about a finger and a half on the other hand.
- [22:04]
John Burke
You mean when he was alive?
- [22:05]
Don Piper
When he was alive. He was a lumberjack in his younger days. Very, very dangerous job. So he lost actually digits. But now I'm seeing real fingers there. I'd never seen them before. My great grandmother was standing beside him. She didn't have any teeth here on Earth. I mean, her teeth were artificial teeth. They weren't dentures. And frankly, they were not very good. She did not like them. She did not wear them very often. And so when I saw her with them, they were usually at church on Sunday mornings for false teeth. But now she smiled at me, and it was her real smile.
- [22:40]
John Burke
So when you see this crowd, were they coming at you? Were they just immediately around you?
- [22:46]
Don Piper
They were immediately around me. It was very obvious they knew I was coming. I don't think you sneak up on heaven. I think everybody up there knows who's coming. And they were prepared for me. They were expecting me. I believe that when somebody trusts Christ, when somebody gives their heart to Jesus, that in heaven they have a big celebration. They know you're coming. And not only do they know you're coming, they record it. They actually write it in a registration book up there called the Lamb's Book of Life. So they were expecting me that day. I. I was not expecting to die that day, but I was ready when the time came.
- [23:21]
John Burke
So one minute you're getting run over by an 18 wheeler, the next minute you feel alive. Standing in front of this big crowd, what did you feel like?
- [23:30]
Don Piper
More alive than I've ever felt here.
- [23:32]
John Burke
Like yourself?
- [23:34]
Don Piper
Absolutely. Except blissful, happy, joyful. I think that should define who we are all the time. If we're followers of Christ, we just don't seem like it very much here. So it was such a stark contrast between the life we live here and how we go about it versus what it is there because it is authentically joyful, incredibly blissful because you're home. And what kind of connotation does home have for us? It's the safe place. It's the place where we love the people and they love us. It's just an incredibly awesome, overwhelming, bustling place. It's not a boring place. There aren't any cherubs sitting around on clouds playing harps. This is an active, exciting, thrilling place. And so I never felt better. And I guess the contrast was so stark because when I did end up coming back, I never felt worse.
- [24:33]
John Burke
So did you have a body?
- [24:35]
Don Piper
I did.
- [24:36]
John Burke
What was that like?
- [24:37]
Don Piper
I would say it was tangible, but not complete. I think there is a time, and the Bible says so, that we will receive glorified bodies that. And I'm not sure exactly what that means, but they're going to be really, really good bodies. But I. I didn't. I didn't sense at all that we were spirits or intangible. I really felt that. In fact, my grandfather embraced me and as he said those words, welcome home, Donnie, which was his name for me here on Earth, Donnie. And the other people did as well. I felt pats on the back. I felt. I don't remember shaking hands with anybody because it felt like that was not quite. That wasn't enough. It was embracing. It was pure love.
- [25:21]
John Burke
So what does a heavenly hug feel like?
- [25:25]
Don Piper
Oh, it feels great. Yeah. I recommend it highly.
- [25:28]
John Burke
I mean, just like on Earth or.
- [25:30]
Don Piper
No. Well, you know, it depends. There are folks on Earth that maybe we haven't seen in a long time that we love in a remarkable way, and we're so happy to see them, and we don't even want to let go. Well, that's how it feels all the time in heaven. I mean, you don't want to let go, but you know you can because you have eternity to do this. And that's one of the things about heaven that's so remarkable that we don't really think about very much. You have eternity in heaven, so you're not in a hurry to do anything.
- [25:59]
John Burke
So talk more about the relationships. When you see this welcoming committee, you saw people you recognized. What was that like reuniting?
- [26:09]
Don Piper
Well, it was overwhelming, frankly. It was just deliriously wonderful. Some of these people I hadn't seen. I was 38 when I had the wreck. Some of these people I hadn't seen for 20 years or more. Some of them had died subsequent to that, maybe only a few years prior to my death on the bridge. So There was no sense of age about them. There was no sense of infirmity about them. As I said, they were expecting me. It was a great reunion. I think heaven is a great reunion.
- [26:36]
John Burke
You said you met some friends there who had died in real tragic ways.
- [26:42]
Don Piper
Yes.
- [26:43]
John Burke
Talk about that a little bit.
- [26:44]
Don Piper
Well, when I was in high school, Mike Wood played on the state championship basketball team. We played for that. And he played on the district championship football team. He got a full scholarship to play football at LSU when we graduated, he's supposed to play in the fall. Barry, another friend of ours, also got a scholarship to play, but not to lsu. He was on a fishing trip by himself, which is always a terrible idea to not have somebody with you. And he struck a limb in the dark, and it knocked him overboard, and he drowned.
- [27:16]
John Burke
That's very.
- [27:17]
Don Piper
I will remember that funeral, like, forever. In the fall of our freshman year in college, I went to lsu and I got a phone call, and it was from a former girlfriend of mine who said, have you heard about Mike? And I said, what about Mike? She said, he was just killed in a car wreck. Now I'm standing at the gates of heaven, and they're both there.
- [27:38]
John Burke
They came to greet you. They came to me.
- [27:41]
Don Piper
And so, you know, as I saw these people, whether they were teachers or aunts or uncles, even my next door neighbor, Ms. Norris, was standing over here. And I'm looking at them and I'm thinking, okay, this is awesome. It's wonderful. It's so great to see them and to see them so perfect. Because a lot of cases, the last time I saw these people, they were in caskets. Now they look great. They've never been more alive, and they're greeting me. So I asked myself, why did this particular group come? Because they didn't even know each other. And the reason, I believe, is because they helped me get there. These are the people who, prior to their death, influenced me for Christ. Mike would take me physically to Sunday school because he'd been a Christian since he was like 9 or 10 years old. And he cared about me enough to make sure that I learned about Jesus. And then I got to go to hear about Jesus. Ms. Norris did the same thing. She was my next door neighbor. She was a foster parent. Sometimes her and her husband had, like, 10 kids in their house. They lived next door to us. They always put those kids in their old station wagon and took them to church. But they always saw that I got to go, too. So I came back from that encounter with all those wonderful people with the Question. If we greet people at the gates of heaven that we help get there, and I believe we will, who are we going to greet?
- [29:02]
John Burke
Who will you welcome in? That's a great question, isn't it? You know, and that's why investing in people really is so important. Loving people, pointing people toward the source of love, because that lasts. These welcoming committees many times are made up of those who loved us and who demonstrated God's love to us, as Don said, people who helped us get there, you know, Marv Besterman, the bank president, said the same thing. He recognized two people in his welcoming committee that often prayed together with him. And everybody, as Don said, is recognizable. We're ourselves, but healed and whole. Isn't that amazing to think about? You know, all the physical and relational wounds get healed. And we're not just wispy, ethereal beings, we're tangible ourselves. The hugs are real. Don't, said the pat on the back. He felt it. Our memories are intact. We reminisce, we remember together. It's this great reunion in this city that is bustling with life, this incredibly exciting place, you know. Rebecca from the 1800s, who had a near death experience, said as she and her brother in law Frank walked among the homes of the city, she noticed the verandas and steps of the homes we passed, she said, were full of happy people. Glad voices could be constantly heard and merry shouts of laughter. See, heaven is a fun, exciting, happy place. A place where relationships will thrive. And you know, Jesus shows us these truths, you know, after the resurrection, it says that Jesus appeared to over 500 eyewitnesses and he was recognizable and they could touch him. Mary recognized him and she went and grabbed onto his ankles. In Luke chapter 24, it says @ one point after the resurrection, There were these two disciples, more than just the 12, and these two were on the road to Emmaus. When it says this In Luke chapter 24, Jesus himself came up and walked among them, but they were kept from recognizing him. He asked them, what are you discussing together as you walk along? They stood still, their faces downcast. One of them named Cleopas asked him, are you the only one visiting Jerusalem who doesn't know the things that have happened there in these days? What things? Jesus asked. I love this. He's playing with them. I mean, he's, he's having fun. He's messing with them. He's going to make them let them tell him all about what he did, all about his crucifixion and resurrection, all about the hope that they had that he would, would be the Messiah. All about the confusion they had when the women came back reporting that they had seen Jesus risen. Which fascinating little aside, Jesus chose women to be the first eyewitnesses of his resurrection. And in that patriarchal society, women weren't even allowed to testify in the court of law. Their testimony was not counted. And yet God in his wisdom says to these men, well, you're going to have to believe them because I'm, I'm showing myself to them first. So, so then Jesus appears to, to Cleopas and, and, and this other disciple. And after he lets him explain all this, he explains to them, well, doesn't it say in the Old Testament prophecies? And he explains all the prophecies of the Messiah's coming. I went through some of them that convince me he was the Messiah. And then it says they invite him to eat with them. And as they break bread together, it says, then their eyes were opened and they recognized him and he disappeared from their sight. So this is fascinating. Jesus can appear just like he did on earth, full, fully recognizable. But then also he could appear in a form that they didn't recognize. Sometimes he could appear in his glorified body, burnished bronze, hair of white, and eyes of lightning. Santosh described him like that, but other times, just like he appeared on earth and just a normal robe and a beard and brown hair and, and sometimes he appears as just light, brighter than the sun. Right, but he's not a wispy ghost. And interesting, as Cleopas and this other disciple are telling the the 12 disciples, it says Jesus himself was suddenly standing there among them. Peace be with you, he said. But the whole group was startled and frightened, thinking they were seeing a ghost. Why are you frightened? He said. Are your hearts filled with doubt? Look at my hands, look at my feet. And he still has the nail holes, just like indie ears report. You can see it's really me. Touch me, make sure I'm not a ghost. Because ghosts don't have bodies, as you see that I do. And as he spoke, he showed them his hands and his feet. Still, they stood there in disbelief, but filled with wonder and joy. And then he asked them, do you have anything here to eat? They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he ate it as they watched. Now Jesus has a resurrected body. It's an upgrade even from the spiritual bodies that will get when we pass from this life. It's kind of like this earthly physical body is version 1.0. When we die, we get an upgrade to A a spiritual body or a heavenly body greatly enhanced. Version 2.0. And just like Jesus in heaven, we can touch and hug and we can eat food and, and we can drink. We can experience so much more like this light and love, the glory of God, this love, exchange, communication that's thought to thought, heart to heart on a different plane. But Jesus actually has a resurrected body, version 3.0, where his spiritual body was reunited to his reconstituted or resurrected earthly body. That allows him not only to experience life in heaven, but life on earth as well. So when we're in our spiritual body, we can't experience life on earth, but we will experience full life in heaven. But one day heaven and earth will be joined and Jesus is the prototype. We'll experience life with heaven and earth joined just like he does. But look, Jesus said we'll eat and we'll drink together again. In God's kingdom, it's eternal life, not eternal death. It's going to be relationship and celebrating and, and fun and enjoyment and work and play and rest and even parties. It's going to be the greatest relational celebration you could ever imagine. Okay, but will we be together with our families and will we be married in heaven? You know, and if so, to which spouse? That's a question I get. And what about people that maybe we don't want to spend eternity with? How is that all going to work? Well, those are questions I get about my research into near death experiences in the Bible and how it all fits together. And what I can say is this. First of all, God created the idea of family. You know, it says in Psalm 68:6, God places the lonely in families. See, family was meant to be the place where we're not alone, where, where we are known and loved and cherished for our uniqueness and where we do that for our brothers and sisters and other family members. And so family is still important to God in heaven because it was God's idea from the beginning. Now no earthly family is perfect. We miss God's intent, we wound one another. But through Christ, all who want forgiveness are forgiven. And then they're brought into God's bigger family, the family of God. And in God's greater family, earthly families are reunited together with one another and even live together in heaven's neighborhood with extended family and around friends. And we will be with generations of family, people who we never even knew, but we'll get to meet and we'll get to know them. We were related to them all along. Just imagine how intriguing and exciting that will Be listen as, as Dean, who also had a near death experience when he had sepsis. And then Dale Black, the commercial airline pilot who was in the airline crash. Listen as they describe their, their welcome into heaven and the relationship there.
- [37:58]
Dean
When I looked up, there's my family, you know, everybody that had been related to me, a part of my family came to greet me in, you know, my grandmother Mary was out front. You know, people always ask me, what does she look like? I always say, I can't describe a person. And he turns because there's no time there. And we describe people in time all the time. But I said, I tell her she was bright, you know, she had a big smile and pure joy. I said she was bright because Jesus was shining out of her. She had a big smile because he had no worry. And then I always said, pure joy. And the closest I can come to that is when a person has a child and they hold that baby in their hand for the first time. There's great joy there. But with her was generations after generation after generation after generation after generation after generation after generation of all of those that had a connection with Jesus, they came to greet me in, you know, and again, that was not my belief system. I did not think you would recognize or even know your family, and it didn't really matter. And yet I came to understand family was important to God. So that was great. And then there was people, to be honest with you with my belief system that I didn't even think would be there. And they were there. And I always talk about my Aunt Barbara because I had her not there. I had her in hell, I'll be honest with you. And there she was in heaven. And I came to understand it wasn't up to me, it's up to Jesus. And sometimes we may make a judgment over a person, but that's between them and God. And he knows. And then I came to understand it didn't matter if I knew, a matter of he knew.
- [39:33]
John Burke
So you're coming down onto this path and you start to notice people. Yeah, this is still outside the city wall.
- [39:39]
Dr. Mary Neal
It's just outside the city wall. And I start looking at people and they're looking at me. And I can hardly describe this experience, but this is my first real experience in heaven. I started looking at these people and I looked and I smiled back because they're all smiling at me. But it's not just a smile. A smile would be an external thing that we put on our face. But you know, when somebody smiles at you on earth and they're smiling from their heart, and it's really coming from their heart. You know, it's a different. Right. You know that that smile is genuine. You're seeing through the person. You're looking through the eye, and you're connecting with the heart of that person. I was looking into the faces of these people. They were joyous. They were complete and utter joy at seeing me. They were joyous and happy about everything, but they were there for me. And I looked into the eyes and I go, oh, my gosh, of course their eyes looked brighter and their smiles were bigger and brighter, and there's no wrinkles on their face. And I began to notice quickly, there's no sickness. Nobody was deformed. Nobody was this or that. It was just all unity and joy and peace, and I was being welcomed. And they had just arrived just in time for my appointment. Apparently, this was appointed by God. And I showed up because God said this was my time to show up. And so there I am. And I'm wondering who these people are. None were my earthly family. I've told this story a couple of times, and this part of the story about heaven and I've been criticized. Oh, Dale, you've devastated me. Because you didn't see your earthly family. Well, I didn't finish the rest of the story, but let me tell you what God did for me in this story. This was my family. These were my brothers. These were my sisters. This was my family. Okay, they weren't my Earth family. They weren't my biological family. But there was nothing stronger than the bonds of this love and unity, which was rooted, grounded in the love of God. We had the same father. We served the same God of the universe. We had the same Lord Jesus that had shed his blood for us. So the oneness that we had was way beyond anything that we have on earth, even with blood ties.
- [42:27]
John Burke
And so this group of people there to welcome you, did you recognize any.
- [42:32]
Dr. Mary Neal
Of them at that moment and in that area? Absolutely not.
- [42:36]
John Burke
You didn't.
- [42:36]
Dr. Mary Neal
And I was not disappointed. I was ecstatic. I was so, so grateful.
- [42:42]
John Burke
Now, I mean, you were pretty young at the time. Did you even have people you knew who had already passed away?
- [42:48]
Dr. Mary Neal
Not a lot, Pastor John. I had a few that had died, and I did see them. I did see a few of them later, but not here.
- [42:56]
John Burke
Dean saw his grandmother and generation after generation. I mean, imagine seeing and getting to know the people that you were related to on earth, going all the way back. You know, I lost my dad when I was a fairly young man, and there were so many questions that I wanted to ask him that I never did, so. So many things about him that we never, never got to talk about. I. I think about what an amazing reunion that's going to be when we remember our history on Earth, but also without all the hurt and wounded. You know, I know my dad was severely wounded as a. As a little boy. He was three years old, growing up in the Great Depression when his father, who was an alcoholic, abandoned his family. And he had a lot of pain from that, and I think he probably went through a lot of abuse as a result. He watched his. His mother suffer, you know, as she was trying to feed two children in the Great Depression. At his sixth birthday, I remember hearing that his dad came by, but he was drunk, and my dad asked him, dad, will you get me a bicycle for my birthday? And his dad slurred, you want a bicycle? Get it yourself. And I know that deeply wounded my dad. And he spent the rest of his life proving, I don't need you, and I will get it myself. And he started to work from age 10, which I'm sure there was a lot that happened there. At age 15, he built a room on their house so he wouldn't have to live with his sister. He put himself through college and then a master's and then started his own business. He did really well on the outside, but a lot of it was bad fuel. And I say that because, you know, relational wounds need healing. And when we're driven by bad fuel, we might do a lot of good things, but the bad fuel ends up hurting us. And it did him. And he was a wonderful father to me. He vowed, I'm going to be the father to my son that I never had. And. And he was. But at the same time, when business would go bad or when there were difficulties, you know, he. He smoked and he drank to, you know, try to calm the nerves, but that didn't help. And he had stomach ulcers from the anxiety of it all. And I knew he always hated his dad. I never even knew the name of my granddad. And I think because of all that, you know, my dad ended up getting lung cancer and. And dying at a. At a fairly young age at 47. I think about that. I think about what's that going to be like, to have this great reunion again and to be able to pick up where we left off, but without all the hurt, without all the shame and all the hiddenness that I'm sure kept him from being able to talk to me about all that, because it's all going to be held in the open because there's nothing to hide. It's all restored and made right in the love and the grace and the forgiveness of God. And who knows, maybe my granddad will even be there with my father to welcome me in. I think that would be amazing. You know, my. My granddad, like I said, I. I think I know his name now, but I didn't. But he hurt many people, and it's not like that doesn't matter. It does matter. In another podcast, we'll talk about, you know, the consequences we heaven and relationship with God's a free gift. But what we do in this life has consequences on us and others and even how we enter the life to come, even the rewards of the experience of the life to come. And we'll talk more about that. But at the same time, you know, maybe my granddad recognized at some point that he was a broken man and his hurts were hurting others, and he turned to God for his forgiveness. And. And he did ask God to help him. I don't know. Who knows? You know, as Dean said, he didn't think Aunt Barbara would be there. He thought she'd be in the other place, probably because of the way she acted and the hurts she carried that were never healed and the way she did relational damage to others. And that's why, friends, it's so important to let God heal those relational wounds. We all have them. No one gets out unscathed and hurt people, hurt people unless we say to God, God, search my heart. Show me the places I've been relationally wounded and show me, lead me on a journey of healing so that I don't keep acting out of that or passing that on or causing hurt to others. Ask him that. He'll do it. I've seen him do it in my own life. And that's all a part of bringing the relationship of heaven to earth. God wants to restore all things through his forgiveness. And one day, I hope that my dad, in a reconciled relationship with his dad, are there at the gates to welcome me in. Well, notice even if you don't have family, that you're expecting to be there or to welcome you in. Dale's welcoming committee was the family of God. He was young at the time. Now, he did later see his grandmother and granddad. They were there, but that's not who God chose to welcome him in for some reason. And he said, you know, his. His ties with his grandmother and granddad were more special because they had Earth ties. They had memories and all that. But he said, God, for some reason, let him see his. His family that was part of the family of God. And the ties, the bonds of oneness, were closer than anything he ever experienced on earth. So those of you who maybe don't have family or aren't close to family, you will have family ancestors that you haven't met that will welcome you in. Brothers and sisters that are a part of the family of God with bonds greater than you can imagine. You know, Jesus disciples were like his family. And he told them his last night on earth, there's more than enough room in my father's home. If this were not so, would I have told you I'm going to prepare a place for you, and when everything is ready, I'll come and get you. And you will always be with me where I am, and you know the way to where I'm going. And then Jesus later said, I've been very eager to share this Passover meal with you before my suffering begins. For I tell you now that I won't eat this meal again until its meaning is fulfilled in the kingdom of God. And then he took a cup of wine and gave thanks to God for it. And he said, take this and share it among yourselves, for I will not drink wine again until the kingdom of God has come. You've stayed with me in my time of trial. And just as my father has granted me a kingdom, I now grant you the right to eat and drink at my table in my kingdom. Do you see the picture of it? It's going to be life. Friends will be together in life, eating and drinking and celebrating. Blood relatives, new brothers and sisters, our closest friends. There will be new work to do, new play, new adventure, new travel, new exploration. And one day I'll welcome my wife in and then my daughter and my son, so Sophia and Bella, my two sweet little granddaughters. And we will, we will dance and sing and laugh. And Dom, my son in law, will probably still have us rolling on the floor in laughter just like he does when we gather together over at my house here on Earth every Sunday. See, all the things we love relationally about life is from God. And it's only just beginning. It'll get even better in the family of God. All right. But what about marriage? You know, that's a question people always ask. Because didn't Jesus say, we won't be married in heaven? You know, my wife Kathy used to not want to talk about heaven. Of course, I've been studying it for 35 plus years. And she would say, yeah, but we're not going to be married in heaven. And that made her sad, which is good, right? I mean, if she'd said, you mean we're not going to be married in heaven? It's all in the tone, right? So it's good that it made her sad. But, but this whole idea that we're not going to be married in heaven comes from a time that the Sadducees tried to play a trick on Jesus, okay? They didn't even believe there was an afterlife. And so they say to Jesus, hey, Jesus, a guy was married seven times, he had seven exes. And then in the resurrection, you know, in, in heaven, who's he going to be married to? And here's what Jesus said. Jesus replied, you're in error because you don't know the scriptures or the power of God. The power of God can unite people in ways that overcome all our relational concerns, all our relational squabbles can even heal ex spouses. And that's what God is going to do for all his children. And then Jesus says this, at the resurrection, people will neither marry nor be given in marriage. They will be like the angels of heaven.
- [52:55]
Don Piper
Right?
- [52:55]
John Burke
Now notice Jesus did not say that people will not be married. He said we will not. He didn't say we will not be with our spouse or our loved ones, those closest to us. He said there won't be new marriages. They won't marry or be given in marriage. It doesn't say they won't be married or united or still have the same close intimate bond. In fact, the bond will be even deeper. But there won't need to be new marriages because our families will be complete. There won't be procreation, so there won't be new people. It will be the family of God completed. But many near death experiencers saw their grandparents together in heaven. And now I don't know how God works out multiple healthy, loving marriages and, and how that all works, except I don't think you need to worry about it because bathed in the love of God, with the communication of heaven, where nothing is wrong, it all works out. You know, some indiers have, have even said to me, nothing is forced and you can be with those that you want to be with and that those who want to be with you and all the jealousies and the relational struggles are gone. And so I say, if you're worried about it, trust God with this one. He's got it worked out. Jeff and Tamara olson and their two boys were driving in an SUV going 75 miles an hour when something happened. Jeff doesn't remember what. Maybe he said he dozed off, but he drove off the shoulder of the road and then swerved left to try to pull back on. But before he realized what had happened, he had overcorrected and the SUV started a roll. Seven times, eight times it rolled, killing his wife, Tamra, and his little infant son, Griffin. Only his younger son, Spencer, survived the crash. Jeff died, but then was resuscitated to tell of his nde. And I want to read this to you because it reminds us that in the life to come, the love we have for a spouse is not different. In the life to come, it's greater. It's deeper. Here's what Jeff said. I was in a different place. This was a place of joy. It was familiar. It was home. And then I felt a familiar touch. I opened my eyes. Tamara was right next to me. She was real, too. I could feel her. She was alive. I could feel her familiar vibration, even more powerfully than her physical presence. I looked at her. I could feel everything. She was crying and upset. Why? Where are we? Was the crash a bad dream? Or had I died? Had we both died? And where were the boys? I felt like I was in some kind of protective bubble. And I felt alive, not dead. You can't stay here, tamara said. You have to go back. You can't be here. Why was she crying? You can't come. You cannot stay here. What did she mean, I couldn't stay? I belonged there. You have to go. She was as real as ever. The thought of our boys raced through my head. Where were they? Were they here, too? If I stayed, would Spencer be left orphaned? Where was Griffin? You have to go, tamara insisted. But I didn't want to go anywhere. It seemed odd to me that in this glorious bubble, she would be so upset. Was it heaven? I didn't know. But it made my earthly existence seem like a foggy dream. What? What I was experiencing was far more real, far more tangible, far more alive than anything I had ever known. I pulled Tamara to me tightly. She was tangible as well. I even felt her wet, wet tears on my skin. I kissed her. That was real. I smelled her hair. Not in the earthly sense, but with senses that seemed to be tenfold what we had experienced before. I didn't want to go, but I knew she was right. I was not meant to stay. I felt I had a choice. But something deep within me knew I had to get back to Spencer. I leaned forward, putting my forehead Onto hers. Another tear fell from my eye and onto her eyelashes. I watched it roll down over her collarbone. I love you. I know. You know. He came back and he raised Spencer as a. As a single parent. But it's such a moving reminder and he holds on to that reminder. In fact, at another time, God allowed him to see his infant son in heaven. He had another near death experience. And he held his little infant son and he kissed his son and then he gave his son back to God because he knew, he knew in that moment, because as God was holding him and he was holding his infant, he knew it's all going to be okay. Every relationship that's found in Christ lasts. It lasts. And it's such a moving reminder too, that, that we are not going into eternal death, but eternal life. If we are right with God through Christ and the love of our lives are not lost in God's world, we will be together and it will be more real, not less real. And you know, it's interesting, I've pondered this because people say no more tears in heaven. I think that's actually Eric Clapton, that an Eric Clapton song. That's not actually what the Bible says. The Bible says he will wipe every tear from their eyes. That's what it says in Revelation 21. Not that there will never ever be the ability to express motion, emotion, or tears. And in this kingdom of love, though he heals us if there are tears as we are transitioning from earth life, he wipes them away. But eventually there's no crying because everything is right. There'll be no more reason to cry. But marriage and love and relational connection doesn't end in heaven. It just goes deeper than ever. You know, the near death experiencers that I have interviewed say that the communication of heaven is, is so pure, is so perfect, it actually has the capacity to heal all of the problems that we face in our relational world. You know, when, when we worry about, if I'm in heaven, I don't want to be with that person, you know, I have a hard time with that person. But, but we have to understand something. All that's wrong about earth is made right. When things are right in God's kingdom, you know, on earth, we're missing God's perfect love. On earth, there is misunderstanding all the time. But in heaven, it's brought back to the way God originally intended. See, all our problems on earth are relational at the core, you know, and that's why heaven's ways can help us today. You know, Jesus taught us to pray, Father, in Heaven your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. And he taught us to pray that because God's will is not done on earth like it is in heaven, unless you are willing to let his will be done through you. See, you get to bring the relational will and ways of heaven to earth if you're willing to let God's love work through you in your relationships today. And that's why as we relationally connect to God, we can actually learn to take what we're. What we're understanding of heaven's ways and let it permeate our earthly relationships. Think about that as you listen as, as Dean, who died of sepsis, and, and Dale, the commercial airline pilot who died in the airline crash, and Dr. Mary Neal, who died in the, in the kayak being pinned under the waterfall. As each of them talk about what communication in heaven is like, think about how that could impact our relationships today if we had more of that.
- [61:57]
Dean
A lot of the perceptions there is no longer from just the seeing something, it's from the heart. You know, I relate it to a mother that has a child and a baby. And most moms, when they have a baby, that baby could be in another room and they'll know it's their baby that's crying. They don't have to say, is that my baby crying? They know it's their baby there. It seemed like I knew these things just because of the connection I had with everything there. And it was so pure, you know, There was nothing to inhibit me from getting the pureness of the communication or knowing something there.
- [62:32]
Dr. Mary Neal
The communication was so awesome because you could not miscommunicate to someone. You always knew the motive of the question or the answer or the comment. The motive was always out in the open and pure.
- [62:47]
Kathy
And there's conversation, but not exactly like you and I are having. It was more of a sort of a pure communication. And I never like to use the word telepathy because it sounds a little too out there for me. But it was this sort of immediate sense of communication made me understand how God can speak to each person in their own language. Because it wasn't using words. It was communicating on a very essential level. Even the communication with these people or these beings was not like we're talking, we didn't use our mouths. But it was a very pure communication. It was just thought to thought, I suppose. But even that, it's more than that. It's almost like a pressure wave. I mean, it's almost like just this very pure communication. And it wasn't communication meaning I heard it or thought it in my brain. It was more than that.
- [64:07]
John Burke
Did you hear that? They all describe this pure communication that, that brings unity in, in heaven. You know, they describe it different ways, but some, some use the term telepathy, you know, which is like, you know, thought to thought. But so many of them say, no, no, it's so much more than that. It's not just thoughts. It's, it's the feelings, it's the motives, it's every thought connected to it. It makes it impossible to not fully understand and, and, and feel what the other person is feeling. Now imagine how that kind of communication could heal all our relational problems, all our relational struggles. And God's love infuses everything in heaven. And that love creates a bond of connection, a unity and a sense of oneness and understanding that we often lack on earth. The communication of heaven is perfect. We don't have that on earth, but we can learn to apply what it's supposed to be and we can move toward it. And here are a couple of the lessons that you can apply to your relationships today as you understand more of the way communication is supposed to be, the way it will be in God's kingdom. The first thing is this. Just rely on the love of God. You know, John tells us that God is love. He's the very source of love. And in First John 4 he says, Whoever claims to love God, yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother or sister whom they have seen cannot love God whom they've not seen. So we have to be honest. You know, if there are people we hate or we can't stand, we really have no love or compassion in our hearts for them. We need to admit God, I need your help loving this person in my own ability. I can't do it. But if you are willing, he will do it through you. Now again, you know, this is earth's way. I can't do it. And then we leave it there. But if you're willing to say, God, I need your help. You love them through me. He will. John explains how he says God is love. God showed how much he loved us by sending his one and only Son into the world so that we might have eternal life through Him. This is real love. Not that we love God, but that he loved us and sent His Son as a sacrifice to take away our sins. Dear friends, since God loved us that much, we, we surely ought to love each other in a similar way. God is love and all who Live in love, live in God and God lives in them. And as we live in God, our love grows more perfect. Okay, so love, real love, not just feel good love, because that's not honestly real love. Love does feel good, but real love is sacrificial. Real love lays down its rights, lays down, you know, fairness, lays down justice because it knows that God is truly fair and truly just and we can trust him with fairness and justice. In love, Jesus laid down his rights, laid down his very life for you and for me and all who want to be forgiven and, and restored relationally to God. So we have to let go of our hurts, our need for vengeance, our demanding justice relationally and trust that to God. And then we must forgive, we must forgive that person as God has forgiven us. And you can't do that unless you realize you first need forgiveness from God. So that's one, rely on God's love. The second thing that you can do to bring heaven's relationships to Earth is practice the communication of heaven in all your relationships. You know, think about it. In, in heaven we communicate soul to soul, heart to heart, complete understanding of thoughts, reasons, motives, and all the connected feelings that a person wants to express. So there's no possibility of misunderstanding. But on earth, you know, my, my soul, my heart, my thoughts, in my brain, all of it is trapped in my body and trapped in time. Time. You know, time makes it difficult for us to listen long enough to understand everything. So what all this means is we have to work harder at bringing heaven's way of communicating to Earth. You know, here's an interesting little fact. Did you know that people can speak at about 125 words per minute, but our brains think at about 400 words per minute? That's a problem in the making. Here, here's what that means. As you're listening, you start to think about more things than I'm saying and you're adding thoughts and meaning and stories to what I'm saying. And, and, and we do that to each other all the time. We don't really necessarily listen to what that person's saying because our mind is running ahead. And so you. Part of bringing heaven's communication to earth is we have to learn to listen and deeply listen to try to repeat what that person is saying until they say, yeah, you got it. You understand? That's it. That's why James, Jesus half brother, tells us everyone should be quick to, to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry. You know, it's fascinating. I've done tons of Marriage counseling. And we use this tool called Prepare and Enrich. It comes from studying millions of married couples and who've done this survey. And what they found is the ability to listen until the other feels understood. That is the biggest predictor of a healthy, loving, successful marriage. Daniel Goldman, who wrote the book on emotional intelligence after studying what makes people successful in life, said this. Listening is the single most important relational skill a person can develop. Asking astute questions, being open minded and understanding, not interrupting, seeking suggestions, all communicate to another person. They matter. So we have to work at the communication of heaven by listening. And then the third thing is practice empathy. You know, Jesus, last prayer on earth was for our unity. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message that all of them may be one Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. See, in heaven the love and light, the glory of God connects us all in this oneness while still being separate. We're still unique people with unique thoughts, but we also have the ability to feel what others are feeling if we want to. Now, here on earth, we don't have that ability. We have to work at it. And so what that comes from is learning empathy to ask for what someone's feeling or pick up on cues of what another person's feeling and try to put ourselves in their shoes. We may not always feel the same exact thing, but we can, we can empathize. We can say, I'm sorry you're feeling so hurt. You know, it makes me sad to see you so sad. I'm so sorry I hurt you. That's a great one. But that often takes the first one, relying on God's love to lay down your life in sacrificial love. Well, in heaven relationship will be easy. There'll be perfect empathy, perfect understanding and love bathing it all, uniting us. But here on earth, as you stay connected to God more and more, as you grow in his love, learning to listen, understanding what the other person's saying, and trying to empathize, you're bringing the communication of heaven to earth. And it will heal and it will increase the sense of loving relationship and healthy relationship you experience here on earth. And you see, heaven is the place where all our relational grief, all our losses, everything that's gone wrong gets restored and restored fully. You know, some of you have lost children and your grief has been unbearable, I can only imagine. And, and you wonder, where is my child? Is my child in heaven? What are they doing? Will I see them again? Maybe some of you have suffered with miscarriages and you know, the, the pain and the grief of that is there, there's something real there. And, and you wonder, was that really a little life? And will, will I see that life again? Or maybe it's been an abortion, you know, and, and you regret it. And you, you think, could it be that God could make all that right? That I could see my little child one day in heaven? Well, friends, God is so merciful, so loving, so kind and forgiving, and he desires to restore all that's been lost, all that evil has, has done to divide us and try to destroy us relationally. God's desire is, is to forgive and heal and restore it all. You know, King David made a huge mistake. He had an affair with Bathsheba, he got her pregnant, and then to cover up his sin, he had her husband killed on the battlefield. God confronted him with the prophet Nathan and he realized his wrongs and he confessed it and he turned back and he had the baby with Bathsheba, who he then married. But the baby was struggling for life and David grieved that his baby might die. He prayed and he fasted. But the baby did die. And then David stopped fasting and he stopped grieving. And it confused his friends. But David said this, now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me. I will go to him. David knew that one day he would be reunited again with his little baby because he knew God's mercy and how God is the restorer of all things and he will do the same thing for you. You know, Annabelle was a little 8 year old girl with an incurable illness. It caused her a ton of pain and such that she couldn't eat. It was very difficult for her to even maintain nutrition. Years into her battling with this, her sister tried to get her to do something fun and got her to climb this big cottonwood tree in their, in their backyard. And the two girls climbed up to 30ft in the air. And it turns out that this cottonwood had a broken off branch and rain had poured into there and hollowed the tree out. Anna ended up falling head first, 30ft down inside that tree, landed on her head and she was trapped in the tree for five hours. Her story was actually made into not only a book, but a major motion picture called Miracles from Heaven. Listen, as her mother Christy tells me about who Anna met in heaven and how that convinced her this must be real. And then I want you to hear from several Others who testify about the joy of children in heaven. I want you to hear it from several so that you see this is not a one off. God truly restores all relationship. She falls headfirst down this hollow tree 30ft and hits straight on her head.
- [76:36]
Christy
Yes.
- [76:37]
John Burke
And is cured.
- [76:38]
Christy
And is cured. She's completely well. Today, Annabelle is on zero medications. Zero. She's been released from the care of her pediatric gastroenterology specialist. And she eats whatever she wants, whenever she wants. I joke that she makes up for lost time eating everything inside.
- [76:54]
John Burke
So just curious, what did she say when she hit her head? She immediately finds herself in heaven? Or did she see herself? Her body?
- [77:02]
Christy
Yeah. She says that she did not see herself. She didn't look down and see herself. She. She didn't go on a journey. She was just there.
- [77:11]
John Burke
Just there. So what did she say she saw? How did she know where she was?
- [77:16]
Christy
She said, I knew I was in heaven because I saw my Mimi. And that is my husband Kevin, his father's mother. So her great grandmother.
- [77:26]
John Burke
Great grandmother.
- [77:26]
Christy
And she had just died within that year. So it had been several months prior, like seven to nine months prior, that she had passed away. And she said.
- [77:34]
John Burke
So she knew her great grandmother.
- [77:36]
Christy
She did.
- [77:37]
John Burke
How old was her great grandmother?
- [77:38]
Christy
Almost 90.
- [77:39]
John Burke
Okay.
- [77:40]
Christy
And so she. She knew her, but she said she didn't recognize her at first because she was so much younger. And then when it. When she realized that's Mimi and she's so much younger, she said, I knew I must be in heaven.
- [77:53]
John Burke
Oh, wow. Yeah. Did she see other people? Because that's another commonality of seeing loved ones or seeing people that you. You knew on earth who have passed away.
- [78:02]
Christy
Well, she did. She saw a little girl. And she said, I kept looking at that little girl because her face looked and reminded me just of you, Mommy, and of Abby, her big sister. One of her sisters, but her big sister. And she said. I kept thinking, I know that face. And so she said, she asked God, who is that little girl? And he said, annabelle, that's your sister. Which was such a. That was what confirmed in my heart for me, okay. This is so very real because I had shared with the girls that I had had two miscarriages, but I never shared with them that one of them was an actual viable pregnancy that I lost. And one of them was called a blighted ovum that never truly was life created. But she didn't know that. She just. That I'd had two miscarriages. And the fact that she saw one little girl in Heaven was totally amazing to me.
- [78:56]
John Burke
Because for you, if she were making it up from what you had said before, she would have said, I saw two girls or a boy.
- [79:04]
Christy
Absolutely.
- [79:05]
John Burke
But she saw one and Jesus said to her, or God said to her, it's your sister.
- [79:10]
Christy
That's your sister.
- [79:11]
Dean
Wow.
- [79:12]
Dr. Mary Neal
On the other side of the tunnel, there's more people greeting me. There's more greeters, but it's not a welcoming committee. I saw two people. The interesting thing about this is I knew these people not by their physical bodies, which is very common in heaven, if you just think about it. Because people change. And your grandparents, you know, they are old, but when you see them in heaven, they're not old anymore. Every. Everybody appears to be similar in age and vitally healthy. Anyway. I'm looking at this man who I recognize by my heart. I don't recognize him because I never saw him on earth, but he's my great grandfather. We called him Paul. He was known in our family by Paul. We ended up living very close to where he was buried. In fact, right over our fence, if you walk a little bit. Where we were first married in our home.
- [80:11]
John Burke
But you'd never met him on earth.
- [80:12]
Dr. Mary Neal
But I'd never met him. He died shortly before I was born.
- [80:16]
John Burke
Wow.
- [80:17]
Dr. Mary Neal
But I knew that that was Pa. And he was there to greet me. And the greeting was wonderful. But I'm telling you, it was wonderful. But let's compare that, because this is important. I think it's important to me. Let's compare that greeting with. Now he's my blood family, with the greeting of the people out in the front of the gate. And I don't recognize any of them. The wonderful love and the bond and unity was almost equal. There was a little bit extra special because we had earthly bonds. But the oneness that I felt here with the body was just great. Now Pa was standing next to, obviously Ma. These are old names. I know, But Pa and Ma were there and I knew Ma. I mean, she babysitted for me for years and years. And I remembered her quirks and her little idiosyncrasies. But see, I would have never recognized her.
- [81:24]
John Burke
Why is that?
- [81:25]
Dr. Mary Neal
Because she had changed so much. She died in her 90s, and I knew her as an old woman when I was a kid. She was in her 80s and she was a small lady at the time on the Earth. And so I would have never recognized her by her earthly because when she was in heaven, she looked to be in her 30s. So it was heart to heart knowledge. We connected oh, Ma, Pa. Wonderful. And others were walking around and we were moving around. There's another person shortly after Ma and Pa, and this person is named Glenn. And I never met him, but he was my uncle and he was my dad's brother, and my dad never met him. This Glenn died at three days old, way back when. I forgot when, but he died way back in about 1926 or somewhere, who I never met, who dad never met. And I began to wonder, why is he here? I mean, isn't that an obvious question? Why is. Why is he being brought to me? Because he died in childbirth. Well, three days old is kind of like he died, baby, tiny baby, but in heaven, he's. In this case, he's in his 30s. He looked like he's in his 30s. So I found out later that there's an area where the little babies and the unborn fetuses are brought and are matured until they understand the ways of God and the way things work in heaven. They don't have to learn about Earth, but they have to learn in heaven.
- [83:24]
John Burke
So you still learn. It's like, you grow up, there's plenty.
- [83:28]
Dr. Mary Neal
To do, and there's always learning. It's 24 hours, seven days a week. If you were to use our time schedule here, learning. And we're always learning. But it's not a pressure, it's not a test that we have to pass. It's just, you're going to spend eternity learning about God. He's so intricate and so complex and so diverse. There's so many dimensions. I don't think learning stops. It's my opinion.
- [83:57]
Don Piper
And all the time they're telling me things, and before I can even ask a question, they're answering me. I. I don't want to describe it as telepathy. It was as though they were in my mind and I was in theirs and we were one and it was so beautiful. And so they gave me an aerial view of heaven, I suppose because I was a pilot. And so I'm looking at the halls of knowledge, the halls of learning, the halls of music. But one building just stunned me. It was so beautiful. And I said, what is. What is that building? Because there was a large green space around it. And he said, that, James, is the nursery. And I said, nursery in heaven? Yes, James. This is where the souls of aborted children or children who die of disease or issues at birth. God loves their light, and he brings it back. And they're raised in the nursery. And I don't have time to go into how they're raised and so on. But how beautiful that Jesus loves us like that. He showed me this in the distance.
- [85:03]
John Burke
This waterfall, but it wasn't a waterfall. They were falling linens. And they were amazing. They were just beautiful, elegant linens falling from the, the hill down like a waterfall would be. And it was just coating the fields and. And everything had purpose. Everything was intentional.
- [85:24]
Don Piper
In heaven, nothing was happenstance.
- [85:26]
John Burke
And I was looking at this and I was seeing children and they were frolicking about, and they were frolicking with angels, and they were frolicking with these gargantuan angels who were just playing with them like, you know they were, and childlike. And I asked Jesus, what, what is this?
- [85:51]
Don Piper
And he said, these are the children.
- [85:52]
John Burke
That died too soon. And I realized that they had were growing up in heaven.
- [85:59]
Dr. Mary Neal
These children were growing up in heaven.
- [86:02]
John Burke
I have never seen anything quite so beautiful as the swelling linens and the joy emanating from these children. And what could be more beautiful? All the relational losses and grief and hurts, it all gets restored in the kingdom of love, in God's kingdom. See, heaven is all about relational redemption. He's so wonderful and he loves you more than you can imagine. He loves all of us more than we can imagine. And one day we will all be together in his kingdom. And know that if you have lost a child, you will go to them. One day you will see them. They wait for you and they forgive too. In God's love and grace, all things are made right. And yes, near death experiencers have told me they can't wait to see you. They're eagerly waiting for you. Hold on to that hope and know that you can live in all, all of God's love. Right now, you can bring more of heaven's relationship to our relationships on earth. Well, I hope you have enjoyed this podcast. If so, I hope you'll share it with friends, spread the word so that others know about the incredible love of God and what's in store for us then and now. If you do like it, please subscribe so you'll get notifications, hit the like and the bell and all that so that others will find out about it. And until next time, God bless you. God bless all your relationships.