← Imagine Heaven Podcast with John Burke
Imagine Heaven Podcast with John Burke
Science, Doctors & 4,000 NDEs: Proof of Life After Death?
01:09:14
In this live series of the Imagine Heaven Podcast, John Burke interviews two leading medical doctors about the science of near-death experiences. Dr. Mary Neal, an orthopedic spine surgeon, had a powerful NDE—and then tried to disprove it. Dr. Jeff...
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- [00:00]
John Burke
If you work as a manufacturing facilities engineer, installing a new piece of equipment can be as complex as the machinery itself.
- [00:07]
Dr. Mary Neal
From prep work to alignment and testing.
- [00:09]
John Burke
It'S your team's job to put it all together. That's why it's good to have Grainger on your side. With industrial grade products and next day delivery, Grainger helps ensure you have everything you need close at hand through every step of the installation.
- [00:22]
Dr. Jeff Long
Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com or just stop.
- [00:25]
John Burke
By Granger for the ones who get it done. Well, I'm John Burke, author of the New York Times best selling book Imagine Heaven and Imagine the God of Heaven and this is the Imagine Heaven Live series. I'm going to be doing this live series in between seasons of the Imagine Heaven Podcast. So if you have not listened to the 10 episodes of the Imagine Heaven Season 1 podcast, I hope you'll go back and and do that. You'll find many topics relating to the commonalities of near death experiences and how they relate to the Bible. In this live series, I'm going to be letting you hear some of the full live interviews I've done over my 40 years of researching close to 1500 cases of near death experience. In today's episode, you're going to hear from Dr. Mary Neal and Dr. Jeff Long, two medical doctors that I interviewed during COVID and and listen as we talk about the science of NDEs as well as many other topics.
- [01:30]
Dr. Mary Neal
The boat and I were immediately and completely submerged under about 8 or 10ft of water. I knew that I had been underwater already too long to still be alive. My spirit rose up and out of the river. I saw my body being pulled ashore. I saw the guys start cpr and I could look at my body and recognize that that was my body, that that represented my life here. We were in an accident where another horse ran into my horse. She reared up, flipped over backwards with me on her back and fell across my body. As she hit my chest, I immediately left my body. I was up 30, 40ft in the air.
- [02:12]
Dr. Jeff Long
I was looking down at a airplane that had crashed. I had seen a body over here that was dead. But I knew this body really well right then. It I'm not my body. There's my body, but here's me.
- [02:30]
John Burke
I've always been fascinated with these near death experiences. And by near death I don't mean like they almost got hit by a car. I mean like dead dead. At first I was very skeptical of these. But I'll tell you, after studying over a thousand of these near death experiences, it's changed my mind.
- [02:49]
Dr. Mary Neal
I was in this experience for what felt to me like many, many, many hours. But in fact, the entire thing was probably 30 minutes. It was like we had this wave of light under our feet, pushing us forward. And it was almost as if I could see the stars go by.
- [03:04]
Dr. Jeff Long
I began to see a small, bright, brilliant glow that got bigger and bigger and bigger.
- [03:11]
John Burke
So how do we know these people were truly dead? Doctors, cardiologists, oncologists have actually been able to look at medical records to show, yeah, these people were truly dead by all the ways that we would claim clinically. Talk about death.
- [03:28]
Dr. Jeff Long
The nine wheels at the driver's side of the truck just rolled over the car. So I was just really killed instantly. Blunt force trauma. They pronounced me dead on the scene. As to how long I was clinically dead without brain function or heart function, at least 30 minutes.
- [03:46]
Dr. Mary Neal
According to the medical records, it was an hour and 45 minutes that I.
- [03:49]
John Burke
Was not breathing or heart beating during that time frame.
- [03:53]
Dr. Mary Neal
So in the sense of a skeptic, I always tell him, you may say I didn't go to heaven, but you can't say I didn't die because it.
- [03:59]
John Burke
Didn'T have any brainwave at that time.
- [04:01]
Dr. Jeff Long
That fact that near death experiences are occurring during that time, that consciousness should be a blank slate, is medically inexplicable. It should be impossible for them to be remembering anything.
- [04:13]
Dr. Mary Neal
Having looked at my medical records, corroborated as many details as I could about the scene at the river, I ultimately concluded that my experience was outside the realm of science and outside the realm of medicine.
- [04:27]
John Burke
Scientists postulate there must be at least five dimensions to make sense of some of the things science is discovering. Is it so crazy to think about what comes after this life? Well, if you just watched the evidence for the afterlife, I have two of the doctors here with me. Dr. Jeff Long and Dr. Mary Neal. And we're going to be diving into more of that evidence. How do we know these near death experiences? When someone clinically dies and revives and has a story to tell of life to come, how do we know those are actually true? So first of all, let me just thank you guys, Dr. Long and Dr. Neal, your doctors. You're still, you're out there on the front lines right now in this coronavirus as we're all shut in, you guys, really, on behalf of all the medical community, thank you, or we thank you all who are part of the medical community. But tell us just a little of you Know where you are, what you do, even maybe how this coronavirus is affecting you right now.
- [05:39]
Dr. Mary Neal
Well, I'm Mary Neal and I will tell you that as my background, I think it's a wonderful thing because I am basically you. I grew up in Midwest and was taken to Sunday school and was confirmed in the church, did all that thing. And then like most of you, went off to college, where I made a choice. I thought that I had to choose between science and faith. So I chose science. I went on to medical school and residency and fellowship and I ran the spine service at University of Southern California and then moved to Wyoming to God's country. And I know it's not Texas, but it's pretty beautiful. And I now live in Wyoming and I practice as a spine surgeon. And these are trying times. I mean, it's a very difficult time to be alive. I think without a foundation of faith, it's very difficult.
- [06:42]
John Burke
You said you had a 14 hour surgery yesterday, didn't you? I mean, it was a long day, wiped out.
- [06:52]
Dr. Mary Neal
Yeah, I'm pretty tired. But it's really, it's such a privilege to be here today and share with you and share with your congregation, John. Thank you for that.
- [07:02]
John Burke
Well, it's far beyond that. There are many people who, you know, are listening in that just, you know, probably checked in for the first time and are wondering what all this is about. Hey, Dr. Long, tell us just a little bit, your, your medical practice, where are you? How's the coronavirus affecting you?
- [07:22]
Dr. Jeff Long
Well, sure, John, I'm practicing in Houma, Louisiana, which is one hour away from New Orleans, one of the major coronavirus epicenters. So we're impacted continuously by increasing number of cases, stretching medical care here to the absolute limit. So here I am at work, continuing to take care of my patients with cancer. I'm a radiation oncology physician, which is the use of radiation to treat cancer. So I'm really on the front lines. In addition to being a physician, I'm a near death experience researcher. I've investigated over 4,000 near death experiences and have written about some of the largest studies of near death experience ever published. So that's been something I've been doing now for over 20 years. My journey in my near death experience research has affected me profoundly. It has greatly increased my faith and understanding that there is a God, that there is an afterlife, that Jesus is a reality and not just a hypothesis. And it's really certainly step by step made me a better Christian. And John, especially in these trying times we have here, where people Are sick, dying at a level we've never seen in this area of Homer, ever that I've been here. I think that ability to reach out to people with that courage, compassion, and that faith is more important now than it ever has been.
- [08:43]
John Burke
Well, I think it's important for people to know that, you know, kind of like Mary was saying, Neither of you started there, did you? I mean, Dr. Neal, I'd love to hear a little more of your story, but I'm curious, just like if you had heard about a near death experience before you actually had one, what do you think your response would have been? Or did you hear about them?
- [09:06]
Dr. Mary Neal
Oh, no, I really had never heard of them until I died. And if I had heard of them, I'm pretty sure I would have just rolled my eyes and thought, that's a little out there. Because I will admit that when I did start having kids, I did take them to church. But I will also readily admit that I think I took them to church mostly to give them a moral foundation rather than actually a way of living. And I don't know, I mean, I'm a little embarrassed to admit that, but no, I was. And actually I continue to be a scientist. One of the things that I discovered is that the choice between science and faith is a false one, because science and faith answer different questions and really coexist very easily. And so now it's a very different thing. But I'm a very analytical person. And I have to say that even now, when I hear people's profound spiritual stories, whether it's a near death experience or deathbed visitation or something that's truly a miracle, I have to tell you, my initial response is not one of total acceptance immediately. I still listen to what they've said and think, huh, how does that fit into God's reality?
- [10:47]
John Burke
Yeah, and I've said the same thing. Had an engineering background, and every one that I hear, I at first take with a grain of salt. And it was really more the seeing the commonalities of thousands of them that changed my mind. But I'm curious. So what changed your mind was you actually had one of these. Why don't you take us back and just give us a little run of.
- [11:13]
Dr. Jeff Long
What happened that day?
- [11:15]
Dr. Mary Neal
Okay. Well, this is a very Cliff Notes version, but in 1999, my husband and I went whitewater kayaking in South America. And circumstances were such that I was forced to go over about a 15 foot waterfall. And when I hit the bottom, my boat was pinned or stuck in the rocks and the underwater features And I was immediately submerged under 8 to 10ft of water. That's where I stayed for about 30 minutes while I was under there, I didn't panic. I mean, I'm a spine surgeon. I'm very used to high stress situations. But the thing that really changed my life and has really gone on to help other people reevaluate their own lives is that at a certain point I made a very active choice not to passively say, oh my gosh, God, please come and save me, or a passive acceptance of God's will. But I made this active choice to say, no, God, not only do I want your will to be done, but I'm really excited about it, whatever that meant. Living, dying. I mean, I had a husband and four little kids. I had everything to live for, but it was a very active choice. And when I asked that question, and I meant it for the first time probably ever, I was then immediately overcome with this incredibly physical sensation of being held and comforted and reassured that everything was fine. My husband be fine, my little kids be fine. And the most incredible part of that is that I knew that I was being held by Christ. And it took me a long time to acknowledge that publicly because it's so outlandish. I mean, I already said I was no zealot. I hadn't earned the right to be there. I hadn't deserved it, but there I was. And I knew that Christ would be there holding anyone who asked, anyone who.
- [13:15]
John Burke
Showed up, how did you know it was Jesus?
- [13:20]
Dr. Mary Neal
Well, people always ask that. And my response is always the same, which is, okay, I've been with my husband for almost 40 years. If I went to the grocery store and I saw my husband, I would not have to walk up and ask him if he were Bill, I know my husband. This knowledge was absolute and pure and complete. And it was Jesus Christ who was holding me. And that is just the reality. I don't. I mean, that is just a knowledge that is beyond questioning.
- [13:53]
John Burke
Well, what's interesting, I'm actually going to do an interview next week with Heidi, who was raised in a Jewish atheist, agnostic home. But she always believed in God. And she dies at 16 when her horse falls on her. And she was completely shocked because Jesus was there. And she said, I felt like I had always known him.
- [14:20]
Dr. Mary Neal
Yeah. And Jesus, no matter what one's background is, is always the guy that shows up. It's never anyone else. If someone's going to show up. And I have to tell you, even though I am a physician and I'd Been around death. In my training and my practice, I had never lost anyone I knew or loved. And I had never really thought about death. This was not something I hoped for or expected. I'd never really thought about it. So part of me was just so surprised that, oh my gosh, wow, this might be true. What's going on here? And then he took me through this life review that truly was nothing I could ever have imagined. It had everything to do with grace and absolutely nothing to do with, you know, guilt or remorse or regret or any of those destructive emotions. It had everything to do with grace and God's absolute love. It was nothing. I mean, I could start crying now if I really think about it. It was incredible.
- [15:24]
John Burke
And people I've interviewed have said that, that the memory or experience many times is as real today as it was back then. Have you found that?
- [15:36]
Dr. Mary Neal
Yes, because I think that profound spiritual experiences have a different quality. It's not a memory. If I told you about big events in my life, I would be recalling a memory. And big events I could remember pretty well. But the little details might change a little bit. I think, when it comes to profound spiritual experiences, when we describe them, we describe them in the present tense. I mean, during all of these experiences, there's a shift in time and dimension and I don't know the terminology that's accurate to describe it, but I know that when I describe my experiences, I am talking about them in the present tense. This is not a memory that I'm trying to recall. And I actually think that's what the Bible is. I mean, I always learned that the Bible was the inspired word of God, but I actually think it's people who were reliving present tense, these profound spiritual experiences. So, no, that's, you know, my description and everyone's description is exactly the same one day later or 20 years later. The details. Yeah, no, they never changed.
- [16:47]
John Burke
Okay, now hold on for a second, because when I was still a skeptic, you know, I would have probably been like, I don't know, you know, 30 minutes. I mean, nobody stays dead 30 minutes. How did she know it was 30 minutes? Is there any proof it was 30 minutes? Maybe all of this is like delusion from the last dying effects of a brain. Maybe it's something we just don't understand yet. And I know, Dr. Jeff, you started there as well. So tell us, Jeff, what changed your mind?
- [17:28]
Dr. Jeff Long
Well, sure, John, when I first read about near death experiences, it was a medical journal article, the Journal of the American Medical Association. And I'd Never heard the term before and I was immediately astounded. Now John, I'm a show me type of person. I think extraordinary claims like near death experiences, which bring forth consistently that message that there's an afterlife, a wonderful one for all of us, really requires extraordinary evidence. As a radiation oncology physician, I make day to day decisions that are life and death based on evidence. So no surprise, when I first read about near death experience, I was skeptical and I said I want to find out the reality, the truth about near death experience from the best source of evidence that I possibly can. That's when I put up my website encouraging people to share their experience immediately having a very validated, detailed questionnaire about that. To answer the question that I had, the burning question, are near death experiences for real? Well, that was over 20 years ago and I can tell you, after over 4,000 near death experiences, overwhelmingly, consistently, the message is absolutely yes, no doubt near death experiences are real. I was astounded that I went from being a skeptic to being one who says, okay, that is stronger evidence for the reality of near death experience than frankly most evidence lines. I have to make my decisions to treat cancer patients, it's that strong. So that really it's been a part of my life ever since and it's just been a delight to hear near death experiences. People share them with us every week and then we have these beautiful experiences like what Mary just shared. It's become a very important part of my life and certainly increased my Christian faith enormously.
- [19:15]
John Burke
So let me push into that a little bit though because you know, you're both medical doctors and I know you both tried to explain them away or you've had, you know, you've had skeptics, Mary, you know, press in and go, well, wasn't it this or wasn't it that? And Dr. Jeff just talked about, you know, two of them in that, in that video of mind altering drugs or hypoxia. What are some other ones that you've heard or you know, what have you learned in looking into it?
- [19:49]
Dr. Jeff Long
You know John, one of the more common things that people think near death experiences must be because they're so unearthly, is perhaps they're related to dreams. In the very first questionnaire that I ever put up over 20 years ago, I asked a very open ended question. Was your experience dreamlike in any way? Suggesting that if there was anything about their near death experience that was like a dream at all, they would say yes and share it. I have never been more embarrassed in the responses I got to questions from people that had near death experiences. It was no, absolutely no, no way. It's nothing like a dream. And I really felt bad about asking that from near death experiencers themselves. They were adamant beyond just about anything I've ever seen that near death experiences have absolutely nothing to do with near death experiences and their clarity in their, in how it's remembered verbatim years to decades after it happened, about its uniqueness from other life events, about that gripping sense of reality that they almost always have every time when they have a near death experience. So nothing like dreams? A common skeptic question. Not even close. Ask anybody who's had a near death experience about that.
- [20:58]
John Burke
Mary, what have been some of the skeptical, you know, pushback?
- [21:05]
Dr. Mary Neal
I would agree entirely with Jeff in that these experiences are not like any other human experience. When I basically, as my kids would say, when I got kicked out of heaven because my spirit left my body and I went up and had a heaven experience. And at the end of that I was given a laundry list of work I still had to do. And one of the more challenging things on that list had to do with the coming and unexpected death of my oldest son. So when I came back and went through multiple surgeries for broken bones and many months of rehab, I had incredibly intense motivation to find an alternative explanation.
- [21:56]
John Burke
Because.
- [21:58]
Dr. Mary Neal
I knew if I could find any other sort of explanation, I would be able to discount everything I'd been told, including what I've been told about the coming death of my son. And so as I said earlier, I'd never heard of a near death experience. But I went back and looked up every single explanation, including dreams and hallucinations and, you know, DMT or neurotransmitter trips and, you know, the physiology of a dying brain, and on and on and on and on. Everything anyone suggested to me, I latched onto and I went back and looked at the original literature, the original data and read everything I could. And what I came to conclude, and that was, I will say that was the first time I ever heard about near death experiences. But what I concluded was exactly the same as what Jeff has concluded, which is these experiences are outside the bounds of science and outside the bounds of medicine.
- [23:04]
John Burke
So I know people are wondering, so what happened? Did that happen to your son?
- [23:10]
Dr. Mary Neal
Yes, actually 10 years afterwards, he was hit by a car and killed entirely unexpectedly. And it was really a whole series of, I'm gonna say miracles. But there are many things that happened leading up to his death that further prepared me and prepared my Family to do what had been asked of me when I was still in heaven. And there are a number of things on that list that have come to pass and some that haven't. We'll see. I mean, doing what I'm doing now is part of it. It's not something I ever would have signed up to do.
- [23:53]
John Burke
But you mean talking about this?
- [23:56]
Dr. Mary Neal
Well, talking about this. Like most people, I'm not really a public person. But the fact is these experiences are incredibly common. There are millions of people in this country alone who have had these experiences. And I feel that the more we talk about them, the more encouragement it gives to other people to share their own stories. And through this experience, I have found that transformation comes when people experience things for themselves. If they know someone personally who has had a profound spiritual experience, then it's a whole different game. Then they're no longer a skeptic.
- [24:43]
John Burke
So, Dr. Jeff, I know you have debated people even about the alternate hypotheses. What kind of things have you come upon and why have you concluded no, it's got to be something real?
- [25:02]
Dr. Jeff Long
Yeah, good question. I've debated, John. I've debated a lot of folks that have near death, that are skeptics of near death experiences. I will say I've never lost a debate. I think that's because the evidence for the reality of near death experience is so strong. Just another example, skeptics may say, well, gosh, these experiences are so unearthly, like nothing that we've experienced in our earthly life. They must be hallucinations. Well, shoot, as a physician, we know darn good and well that people that have hallucinations as a result of altered brain function, the experiences may hop all around. They're more often to be frightening. They're more likely to have unreal content. We know in the medical world, me personally, from having seen people that have had hallucination, that near death experiences are nothing like hallucinations at all. John, over 20 different skeptical explanations have been proposed over the years. And the reason there's so many is that no one or several explanations make sense, even to the skeptics themselves. So, you know, people seem to come up with a new skeptical explanation every year or two, and, and that's quickly shot down. And there's really no explanation for any part of what's observed during a near death experience that makes sense. These are, I'm convinced, based on evidence, the real thing, that these are a visit to an unearthly realm of existence and bringing back very important information, information that is vital, not Only for the person who had the near death experience, but certainly could inform, inspire and help us all to lead better lives, even if we haven't personally had a near death experience.
- [26:41]
Dr. Mary Neal
The other part of it, John, is that people want to focus on things that they don't believe because most people really don't want it to be true because it would be very inconvenient for their lifestyle. But when you look at near death experiences, for example, there are many skeptics who focus on the fact that we don't all describe beauty in the same way, but we all describe intense beauty. But why would we all describe beauty in the same way during our near death experience when we don't experience beauty the same on earth? I think that's one of the things that speaks to the truth of these experiences and I think it's incredible. I absolutely believe that God presents to each one of us at the time of our death the experience that will speak to us, that will make us feel known and loved and welcome. Because we're going home, it's a homecoming party and God wants to make sure that we know where we are.
- [27:38]
John Burke
Well. And you know, just like in a court of law, if you have 10 people who all say verbatim the same thing of what happened, you have collusion, right? I mean, that doesn't happen. But if you have 10 people who say basically the same thing, but all their stories show from a different angle with different details and different perspectives, then you have good evidence. And that's what I found when I studied near death experiences. There are these amazing commonalities. And I know, Dr. Jeff, you found the same thing. There are these amazing commonalities, but there are uniquenesses along the way as well. And not every experience has the same depth of experience. But when you have people saying basically the same structure of this organized experience that's more real than anything they've ever experienced, and they're saying it all over the globe, young and old, despite their cultural background. I just can't imagine. I just haven't heard anybody give a really good alternate explanation. It usually is, you know, I don't want to think about it. And so it's this.
- [28:56]
Dr. Jeff Long
John. I couldn't agree more with that. That's exactly what I found too. I think every near death experience researcher in history has been astounded, as you was, and I was at the amazing consistency of what happens during a near death experience. My over 4,000 near death experiences, it can be young and the old, same experience anywhere around the world, same experience no matter what their prior belief system, what they believed in, as far as religion goes, or even if they were atheists, remarkably, at that moment of their close brush with death, astoundingly consistent content in their near death experience. That got my attention as a scientist. I know the foundation of science is what's real is consistently observed. And you absolutely have that near death experiences.
- [29:42]
John Burke
So Mary, I know there was more to your experience than you just told. Go into a little more detail for us so that people kind of get a picture of, you know, some of the things you experience. And then I'd love to hear Jeff, you comment on some of the commonalities you, you've seen.
- [29:58]
Dr. Mary Neal
Well, of course it would really take me about two hours, but I won't do that.
- [30:03]
John Burke
You only had 30 minutes.
- [30:06]
Dr. Mary Neal
Exactly. But I'll tell you, even to answer that question, I was kayaking there with professionals and they are used to water rescue, they teach water rescue. And even though we were not in a hospital setting, this is what they do. And as soon as they figured out that there was a problem, they started their watch. They're very cognizant of time because they teach that they know that time makes a difference. When I talk about almost 30 minutes, that's coming from them. All of those details are details that they have given me. But my experience just went on and on and on. My spirit kind of separated from my body. And as I said, I went up to.
- [30:54]
John Burke
This is when you were underwater, you're still underwater. Are you aware that you're underwater?
- [31:01]
Dr. Mary Neal
Well, I told you, I'm a very analytical person and I could be helped by Christ. I could be taken through this incredible life review. But at the same time I was still me. Perhaps my best me, but I was still me. And my little thought balloon to the side kept thinking, wow, this is really strange. I must have an air pocket or something. And every few minutes I would sort of do a little self assessment exam. And I didn't have an air pocket. I wasn't breathing. I could feel the weight of the water. I could feel the plastic of the boat. And then I could feel the current working on my body, slowly pulling it over the front deck of the boat. And that's when my spirit also sort of peeled away from my body. And I could kind of feel that it's not something I could ever verbally put in. I couldn't describe it. It was a very strange feeling. But then, no, my spirit was sort of released to the heavens.
- [31:56]
John Burke
And were you ever. I'm sorry, I just Were you ever in pain or were you feeling the dragon?
- [32:04]
Dr. Mary Neal
No. I have to tell you that when I grew up, I don't know why, but the only thing I was ever afraid of was drowning. I just. I didn't care how I died. I just never wanted to drown. And so I would have. I know, exactly. I would have imagined being terrified. That was always my deepest fear. But instead, I had not the experience of being conscious and then unconscious or alive and then dead. I had the most wonderful feeling. I had no fear, I had no pain. I mean, I could feel my legs breaking as I came over the front of the boat. And I questioned, like, gee, I should be screaming, but I wasn't. I felt great. I felt conscious, and then I felt more conscious. I felt alive, and then I felt more alive, as Jeff said. I mean, the intensity of reality, experience, color, aromas, was something that we can't experience here. And so, no, I didn't have pain. I felt great. I mean, I thought, wow, dying's not so bad. But I did go up and I was greeted by a group of people, or spirits, beings, I'm not sure what to call them, who had known me and loved me as long as I have existed. And again, there was a shift of time and dimension so that I could look back at the river and I could see them doing cpr. I could see me. I recognized that it was me. I also recognized that despite the fact that I had a great life, great life, I wasn't planning on coming back. I had no intention, because I had an absolute feeling of being home. Like I had been on this great adventure to Earth. Great adventure. And now I was home. I was where I really belonged and where ultimately we all really belong.
- [34:05]
John Burke
What made it feel like home?
- [34:09]
Dr. Mary Neal
I knew where I was. I knew that I was loved so completely. A sense of love that we just don't really experience here on Earth. I mean, my husband loves me dearly, thank goodness, but most love here on Earth has some little bit of conditionality to it, but this was home. It's the feeling of going to some Third World country and staying there for a couple of months and having a great time. But then you come back to your own home and you sleep in your own bed. It's just this overwhelming sense of being where you belong. And I have never really thought about it in terms of what aspects, really, but it was that sense of just, ah, I'm home.
- [35:06]
John Burke
And then who are these people that were there greeting you?
- [35:11]
Dr. Mary Neal
Well, I knew that they were people who had been important in my life story, at that point in my life, I had not lost anyone I actually knew. No relatives, no friends, no. No one. But they were people who were important. Maybe a grandparent who died before I was born. And so I couldn't identify them immediately. I knew that they were there and overjoyed to welcome me home. I know that when I go back again, now, I do have some people who I know will be there waiting for me. But I really didn't take time to look at them and say, hey, who are you? Because they were going to take me down this pathway to what I knew was the point of no return to truly eternity. And I was in a hurry. It was almost like I said, okay, look, we have plenty of time to catch up. Let's go.
- [36:07]
John Burke
Did you know where you were going?
- [36:11]
Dr. Mary Neal
Home. I mean, it was home. I had an absolute, not just sense. It wasn't a premonition, a thought. It was an absolute understanding and absolute knowledge. I was going home.
- [36:29]
John Burke
Did you talk to these people? Did you touch them? Hug them? What?
- [36:34]
Dr. Mary Neal
Well, it's a funny thing. And I wish if I'd known I was coming back, I would have taken more notes, but I wasn't planning on coming back.
- [36:43]
John Burke
That's such a funny thing to say.
- [36:46]
Dr. Mary Neal
There are a lot of things I wish I had done and I would have if I knew that I was coming back. But they did have a three dimensionality. I mean, they were incredibly brilliant. And I know this sounds crazy, but they were wearing these robes that were woven together with fibers of love. I mean, it was the most beautiful thing I could ever imagine. And this pathway was so beautiful. And to me, what speaks beauty is color and the intricacies of flowers and the aromas, and that is what I experienced. Every color of the universe and beyond, all at the same time. Like, it's not that they mix together together, but I understood each color simultaneously. And it just is the beauty that makes my soul explode. I mean, it was incredible. And so I didn't hug them. I know that we were sort of dancing, kind of, but not. I don't dance here on Earth, so it wasn't that kind of a dance, but it was rejoicing, truly rejoicing. And we did. We did communicate, but it wasn't talking like we are now. It was almost. And I've never been willing to use that word, telepathy, because I just think it sounds a little cuckoo, you know, I don't. I don't know. I. I don't know what to call it, but it Was almost. There's just this transference of knowledge. I don't know how it happens. It's almost like this energy wave or something.
- [38:26]
John Burke
I mean, people have said it's like the thoughts, the feelings, everything. No misunderstanding, Communication.
- [38:37]
Dr. Mary Neal
Very pure. Very, very pure.
- [38:40]
John Burke
I often imagine, golly, we live in such a veil of communication and such confused communication and so much misunderstanding. I mean, that would change everything.
- [38:55]
Dr. Mary Neal
It would change everything. But I think that's part of our challenge. When I go back to my life review, one of the really life changing parts of it was being placed back into really painful circumstances and situations, but placed there with an absolute understanding of the life story or backstory of everyone involved. And what I found is that with that understanding, the miscommunication's gone, the destructive emotions are gone, and they're replaced with compassion and love. And you're right, if we could absolutely communicate purely, it'd be a very different world, but that would change our experience here. So that's, you know, that's part of our challenge, I guess.
- [39:44]
John Burke
So you said you were moving together and you're going toward something. How were you moving and what were you going toward?
- [39:55]
Dr. Mary Neal
Well, we were moving along this incredibly beautiful pathway that sort of existed in the middle of nothing. I mean, I didn't really look around, I have to say, but I didn't really see anything underneath it to the sides. It was just sort of at existing. And we were going to this great dome structure, for lack of a better way of describing it, that I knew was the point of no return.
- [40:23]
John Burke
How did you know that and what does that mean?
- [40:25]
Dr. Mary Neal
I just knew it. I just. And again, it's a funny thing. This kind of knowledge I'm talking about is sort of like if I gave you a wooden table and I told you it was wood and you kind of knew it was wood because it looked like it, versus being the person who grew the tree, cut down the tree, milled the wood and made the table. If you were that person, you would know it's wood and it's just fact, deeper knowledge. Right. And I knew that this was the point of no return and I was never able to cross it. We stopped at this archway of sorts, and I was there for what seemed like many hours. I mean, I may have only been without oxygen for about 30 minutes, but it seemed to me like many, many hours. And we did communicate then. I mean, I had this incredible sense of absolute knowledge. I understood how it all works. I understood the divine order of the universe. And I kept trying to hop over the Threshold and kept being prevented.
- [41:38]
John Burke
Well, it's interesting because you know that border or boundary people describe as in my studies, people have described it in different ways, but there's an intuitive knowledge that this is the boundary you can't cross and still come back to life. In other words, my hypothesis is that truly is eternity and that's where our decisions as well are eternalized. And I think that's why some people can. They're still making decisions even in that. In between.
- [42:09]
Dr. Mary Neal
I think that's true, yeah. And it's a funny thing because one would think that you wouldn't have that added time to make decisions. But I think we are still making decisions during that time. And it's only at that threshold then your choices become eternal.
- [42:29]
John Burke
And time, how do you describe how time worked on the other side?
- [42:33]
Dr. Mary Neal
Oh, time. And it doesn't make sense. And this is biblical and now I understand it, but I would not have understood it before. There is no doubt that every moment expands into eternity and all of eternity is in every moment. And I fully recognize that that does not make sense because it's very difficult to understand it and none of us have the language to describe it. I, like you, always use the analogy of living in a two dimensional world versus a three dimensional world. If you live in a two dimensional world, you can't describe the third dimension because you don't even have the vocabulary to communicate it.
- [43:22]
John Burke
Is that what it felt like?
- [43:24]
Dr. Mary Neal
Oh, absolutely. When I listen to other people describe their spiritual experiences, I know exactly when they lose their vocabulary. Because at a certain part in every experience you lose words. Those words don't exist.
- [43:42]
John Burke
But it sounds like it's life, like we know life.
- [43:49]
Dr. Mary Neal
It is more a more expanded life. It's a different life. It's not life. I do believe I was still me in terms of my best me, not my worst me. I do think, but I still think I had my same sensibilities. What I do not know is what happens beyond that threshold. Because I didn't get beyond the threshold. I don't know. Even if we still have a three dimensionality to us, it may be that my experience had a three dimensionality of sorts because that's what I would understand.
- [44:30]
John Burke
And you knew yourself, you remember your history. It's all, I mean, you're still you.
- [44:37]
Dr. Mary Neal
I did. But even remembering history is remembering it with a very, very different filter. Because in God's world there are no destructive emotions. I mean, if you think about that pure communication, if you think about understanding and what that does in terms of Creating empathy and love for people. It's with a different filter. I could remember all of my past, but I did not have. And still to this day I do not ever feel regret, remorse, anger, bitterness, all of those destructive emotions. I don't feel anxiety or worry either for the future because that's not part of the reality when you start talking about God's love and God's promises.
- [45:33]
John Burke
So Dr. Jeff, you've studied 4,000 of these all around the globe. What are some of the commonalities that line up with what you just heard Mary describe?
- [45:44]
Dr. Jeff Long
That's a great question, John and Mary, thanks for sharing that absolutely inspiring near death experience. While to many viewers they're going to say that what you shared Mary is absolutely astounding, they never heard anything like it. In my 4,000 near death experiences. Every major point that Mary made there I've heard hundreds and hundreds of times. It's part of the detailed pattern of near death experience. It's part of the reality of what we hear in near death experiences. So just almost line by line from Mary's account there really happens. I mean the concept of time either being radically different or non existing in this unearthly, I call it heavenly realm that's almost uniform in near death experiences. That powerful sense in the near death experience that you're home. This is your real home. In fact, John, among the two most common words used to describe a near death experience by those that have them, peace and love. I mean, but off the scale from anything they've known in their earthly life, accelerated consciousness. I mean, can you imagine Mary's telling us that as so many others have shared their near death experiences, you have a life review of much of your entire prior life while you're unconscious or clinically dead for minutes. That's just an example of the tremendous acceleration of consciousness you see during near death experiences almost uniformly. So these are some of the commonalities that occur in my opinion, that very unearthly aspects of near death experiences, almost super normal from what our earthly sensations are like that further bespeaks the reality and certainly are lines of evidence for the reality of near death experiences.
- [47:29]
Dr. Mary Neal
I just want to say one thing. I feel compelled to make this point because we're talking about near death experiences. You're doing a huge series on near death experiences. It is incredible. I mean, going home is beyond our wildest dreams. But that does not mean we should be longing to go home or that it's a better place, etc. Because being here on earth is an incredible opportunity. And an incredible adventure. And sometimes when I'm involved in talking about near death experiences, I really want to dampen that enthusiasm because the fact is, you know what if you go again to a third world country and you have this incredible adventure, how miserable would it be if all you did was sit in your hotel room longing to go home? I mean, that's not why you go and experience things. We come to Earth for this incredible experience. When it's time to go home, we'll go home.
- [48:43]
John Burke
And God makes it very clear to people who have that life review or who experience them, you still have a purpose here, right?
- [48:52]
Dr. Mary Neal
Yeah. If you're not dead, you still have work to do.
- [48:54]
John Burke
Well, yeah.
- [48:55]
Dr. Jeff Long
And.
- [48:57]
John Burke
It matters. And it has to do with love.
- [49:00]
Dr. Mary Neal
Right.
- [49:00]
John Burke
And how we treat one another, how we use our gifts to serve one another. And that it actually matters, it actually counts. And I like to say that too, whenever I talk about this because, you know, some people have very hard lives and you know, they're like, well, I'll just go there. Well, that actually is a bad, bad idea. Right. Don't ever think about taking your own life because it's actually your life is a gift from God and a stewardship, even if you don't yet see how or why. But I think Mary and I know many others I've talked to would say, you know, there is a purpose that God has for you and seek him because it has many times less to do with what we think it ought to be than the simpler things of how to be fully who we are with the people that he's put around us. Would you agree, Mary?
- [49:57]
Dr. Mary Neal
I could not agree more. That is entirely true. If we are here, it is because we have work to do. And there is no doubt that God not only actually knows us individually, all billions of us on the planet, but God has a plan for each one of our lives that is one of hope. And Yep. If you're not dead, it means you still have a purpose no matter what your life is seeking after it.
- [50:32]
John Burke
So, Dr. Long, back to you in your study of 4,000 near death experiences in what, 31 countries now we're up.
- [50:41]
Dr. Jeff Long
To 31 different languages that we've studied. 31 languages, yeah. So that's right.
- [50:47]
John Burke
So what Mary's talking about of people experiencing God is a commonality as well. Talk about what you've seen in your study.
- [50:57]
Dr. Jeff Long
Oh, absolutely. God is mentioned in hundreds of near death experiences. I've actually made a study of that. When I started studying that, I didn't know what I'd find but to my astonishment, that same remarkable consistency of what people are describing is also the consistency we see when God's described. God is described same thing as Mary describes with Jesus. It's an immediate knowing that this is God, not maybe, possibly not doubt. It's that instant recognition that is often. What's described as a light, amorphous being, or even a developed being is indeed God. One of the most common things they describe about God is that overwhelming feeling of love. They're known for who they are, all that they are, everything that they are, and loved profoundly beyond anything that they could have known on earth. And they feel accepted perhaps in a way that they hadn't ever felt that way in their earthly life. They feel a connection with God unlike often that they felt with any person on human being in their life. When I started studying that, that to me seemed, jeez, I didn't think of God that way. But by the time you see that hundreds and hundreds of times, you kind of say, wow, I get that. I think there's that real message in near death experiences that, you know, God is that overwhelmingly loving, overwhelmingly compassionate and accepts you, me and everyone in a way I hadn't even realized. And that's exciting. That's when sort of the science of near death experiences becomes tremendously inspirational. And it's been a real pleasure to walk that journey. My research.
- [52:36]
John Burke
Well, and that you, you wrote a book called God, God in the Afterlife. Well, your first one was Evidence of the afterlife, right. And then God of the Afterlife. And we were talking once and you told me that, you know, because I read the whole thing and I was like, wow, yeah, you know, that's pretty much what I've seen. Except Jesus didn't show up there. And then you told me. Yeah, your publisher actually asked you to make that a separate book. Talk about what you found.
- [53:09]
Dr. Jeff Long
That's great, John. I'm glad you brought that up. I started working on God in the afterlife and of course Mary described encountering Jesus. Well, again, way over 100 near death experiences I have was describing Jesus, same thing as God, just like Mary said, very eloquently, you know, instantly, this is Jesus with every core, every fiber of your being, no doubt that is Jesus. And so I observed that and I sort of broke off from doing my research for the book and did a very detailed study of Jesus in near death experiences. And that was an oh wow moment for me because even after having studied near death experiences that long, here is Jesus being described once again. That and not just some abstract person who's up in clouds or somewhere apart from us Jesus with the near death experiencers listening to them. And that's actually what Jesus major role is in near death experience is listening. That same profound sense of love people describe with Jesus, that same profound sense of acceptance. And even if people that have near death experiences felt some guilt or some anger or some resentment, when they're with Jesus, that's all gone. They feel loved, they feel connected, they feel cared for at a level that was beyond anything that they thought was even possible on earth. So I wrote up quite a big section on that. I was very excited about that. Her publisher said geez, this is so dramatic. This is going to pull attention away from God in near death experiences. And recommended I didn't write it up. So that's the only reason it didn't go in there. Because it really is that dramatic and really is that exciting. Just like Mary knows from her own personal experience. It is really a massively inspirational thing that again, as much as any, I don't know how you could read about Jesus and near death experiences and not grow as a Christian knowing that that is wow, that's that love, that something that is beyond anything we know on earth. That's just inspirational. Times 100 in my opinion. It certainly was steal my Christian thinking.
- [55:16]
John Burke
Well and the fascinating thing in my research is Jesus showing up in cultures all around the world. And in a similar way, this brilliant man of light and even what Mary said. I've heard multiple people say, like I remember this one woman in Australia and she describes Jesus but she didn't say he was Jesus. She knew he was divine and she was mesmerized looking at his robe of how can a robe be woven together with light? But Mary said it was love.
- [55:55]
Dr. Jeff Long
The robes look like love experiences. Those terms are often synonymous, love and light. And yeah, there's no English language words or words in the world as Mary alluded to briefly. Sometimes this is so unearthly in the experience, you don't really have good words for it. And yet it's all that and more love, light and that something beauty, that feeling of connection that is just unearthly.
- [56:25]
John Burke
Yeah. And when you see Jesus showing up in experiences in India, you know, this summer I had a woman, she didn't know I had researched a thousand near death experiences or written a book or anything. And I'm with her son who speaks English, but they're from Iran and she only speaks Farsi. And she starts telling me, you know, she was related to the prophet Muhammad, he was Hezbollah. And he had become a follower of Jesus and was praying for his mom. And his mom starts telling me about how she died, fell to the ground. And she leaves her body and sees her son doing CPR on her. And she turns and looks and Jesus is there with her. And she knew it was Jesus and she's telling me this in Farsi and she doesn't know anything about me. And you know, I had another one in Portuguese when I was in Brazil this summer and people all around the world and so I have a question for you, Mary having. What was he like?
- [57:43]
Dr. Mary Neal
My description is always the same and it doesn't make sense. But I would say that Jesus looked like bottomless kindness and compassion. And when I tried to sum up really what it was like to be with Jesus and I chit chatted with him later in another out of body experience, I would very clearly say that Jesus is really this physical or three dimensional manifestation of love. And again, it doesn't make sense. But if, if there is a manifestation of love, of kindness, of compassion, that's what he actually looked like. And physically, I mean, it looked like all of us, sort of like the colors on this pathway where I was experiencing all the colors at the same time. I mean, he looked like all of us because we are, we are all part of God's world.
- [58:47]
John Burke
Yeah, it's Easter. And you know, the, what the Bible tells us is that Jesus came to reveal God in a form we could relate to. But it's really an amazing thought, is that God united himself to his creation in the most intimate way. And that's, you know, Jesus. So unlike you, your body stayed dead on earth, your spirit was alive. That's kind of version 2.0, right? So our physical body is version 1.0. You experienced the version 2.0, but he's got 3.0 because his body and spirit are united. Resurrected is what you know, we talk about.
- [59:32]
Dr. Mary Neal
And I will tell you the incredible thing about Easter, about the fact that God manifested into this physical form for us, I think has a bunch of, bunch of offshoots. One thing that I think is really amazing when you think about that is when you try to imagine the depth of love of our Father, saying, you know, guys, I so desperately want you to live the joy filled life that I intended for you. I've got to try to help you get there. I've got to show you a different way of living. And I love you so much and I want so much more for you that I'm gonna send Jesus to the world so that he can show you my love. So that he can show you how to love other people. So that he can point the way to this life that I want you to live. Don't have to live in the Old Testament yet. We have this new, new way.
- [60:35]
John Burke
Yeah.
- [60:36]
Dr. Mary Neal
And I just think when, when you, when I think about Easter and I really focus on how much we are loved that God would do that for us.
- [60:47]
John Burke
Yeah.
- [60:48]
Dr. Mary Neal
I mean, you gotta be kidding.
- [60:55]
John Burke
It is like a parent that would literally lay down their life for their child.
- [61:01]
Dr. Mary Neal
Exactly.
- [61:02]
Dr. Jeff Long
It is.
- [61:03]
Dr. Mary Neal
And not even lay down their life beyond that. Because God not only wants the best for us, but wants us to live in a state of joy, which I believe we all can live in a state of joy. Yeah.
- [61:22]
John Burke
Well. And you know What? Commonly even Dr. Jeff referred to of how people feel such compassion and in the presence of God, not a sense of condemnation, even though as they live their life review, they see they're good and they're bad and it's like real evident and yet that's exactly what Easter was all about. That God was paying for our wrongs so that we can be set free of the fear of condemnation or judgment and the fear of death, all of that. And to live in relationship with God starting now, but kind of like you said, now is also contained in eternity and eternity in each of these moments. So one last question then we'll probably need to wrap up. How Dr. Jeff, has this study affected you, changed your life?
- [62:22]
Dr. Jeff Long
Oh, profoundly, John. I think I was like so many other people, especially scientists going through medical personnel, going like us doctors, you go through medical school and you kind of pull your focus away from things spiritual. You begin to think analytically, you begin to say, you know, it's evidence. If it doesn't, if you can't analyze it, study it scientifically, it's not real. It's kind of a mindset of a lot of folks in the medical and scientific community. So I sort of bought into that. And I was certainly, you know, regularly attended church, but was sort of a lukewarm Christian starting to do my near death experience research as over time. And it did take time. It literally took a period of years. It didn't happen overnight. But as I kept seeing over and over these powerful messages of love, the powerful messages of the reality of an afterlife, God, Jesus, profound love for each and every one of us at a level I never thought was possible. I don't know how that can help but change you. And it certainly changed me. It's changed me as a radiation Oncology physician that fights life threatening cancer daily to fight it with more courage, more compassion than ever before. It certainly strengthened my Christian faith far more than I ever thought was possible. I totally get this. It used to be based on faith and to a large extent hope, and now it's certainly still based on faith and hope. But I have that powerful underlie of evidence from near death experience and other spiritual experiences that's helped fortify my Christian walk. It's made a huge difference.
- [64:01]
John Burke
And Mary, I know I read a book that you wrote after your experience on seven lessons that you learned. And I'm just curious, what would you say, and especially right now in the, in the middle of the COVID 19 and there's a lot of fear, a lot of worry and anxiety out there, you know, what were the lessons that you brought back or the most important one that you feel like could speak into what people are going through right now?
- [64:36]
Dr. Mary Neal
Yeah, you're right. I mean, I wrote that second book mostly because the first book, having it back, was just a good story. You know, you read a good story, you put it down and you go back to your life and. But every story, every experience is only valuable if it has the ability to change yourself or to change other people. Which is why then I went on to write seven Lessons from Heaven. Because there is no doubt that the most meaningful part of this experience for me and also for other people has really been the understanding and acceptance that it's all true, it's real. There really is not only a God that knows us and loves us and has a plan for us, but there is a God who has made many promises to us and if we can. And I believe everyone, even without a profound spiritual experience, can get to the point where they can choose actively to trust those promises. And I think it's in choosing to trust those promises, which I've been able to do because of my experiences, that propels us into this joy filled life that I really strongly believe we are all meant to live, that we are all capable of living. It eliminates the destructive emotion. When I think about the current COVID 19 crisis, I realize that so many people are living in an intensified state of fear. But I think you have to identify what that fear is. And for most people it's a fear of death, or a fear of a loved one's death, or a fear of losing your job, or all these fears that have to do with this unknown future. But I think that one of the things that I certainly try to provoke people to do is to Address that fear and say, okay, let me actually look into this, because I find that most people are either intellectually lazy or, you know, spiritually unwilling to look at the data. And I would say, you know, you look at the work that Jeff has done and you cannot deny the reality and truth of these spiritual experiences. And it is accepting that truth that I think is so life altering for any person.
- [67:21]
John Burke
And then I loved what you wrote in the seven Promises. I mean, the seven lessons about God's promises. And you know, that that is what he's given us through Jesus time on earth, what he said throughout the Jewish prophets so that we can know, okay, what can we hold on to, what's true, you know, and it brings that, you know, it's what Jesus taught us to pray your will be done on earth.
- [67:53]
Dr. Mary Neal
Exactly.
- [67:54]
John Burke
Because it's not. It's not forward.
- [67:57]
Dr. Mary Neal
No, I have a list of those promises. And when I face struggles, and we all face struggles, we all face challenges, there's no question that I read and reread those truths, those promises, and not only does that give me the trust, the confidence that tomorrow is coming and there will be beauty that comes out of that situation, but I find that reading through them promotes this continual renewal of choosing to trust. And I find that once you've kind of made that intellectual choice, then all of a sudden you see things differently. You actually see the miracles that occur. You actually see and feel God's presence in your life. And it just continues to become a bigger and bigger snowball.
- [68:55]
John Burke
I mean, well, I so appreciate you guys both. I know you're both busy doctors. Thank you so much for taking the time to share with us your journey. I know it's going to help many, many people.
- [69:09]
Dr. Mary Neal
It has been a privilege. Thank you.
- [69:12]
Dr. Jeff Long
Greatly appreciate it. Thank you so much, John.
- [69:14]
John Burke
Well, I hope you enjoyed this live interview. Hopefully it inspired you. And if you would like to dive deeper into the meaning of near death experiences and how the commonalities of what people report relates to the Bible, you can check out my books or the Imagine Heaven podcast and there'll be links down below in the description. Well, until next time, be blessed.