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Imperfect Love
Become Your Best Self--and a More Attuned Parent--by Healing Childhood Trauma with Expert Dr. Robyn Koslowitz
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- [00:00]
Dr. Carla Marie Manley
If your childhood was traumatic, you might expect yourself to have forgotten or moved past the difficulties and challenges you endured. Yet from my clinical and life experiences, it's clear that we never recover from childhood trauma or any other form of trauma unless we purposefully engage in mindful healing. We're told that time heals all wounds, but the truth is that the wounds from trauma only worsen when they are marginalized or ignored. Unfortunately, unresolved childhood issues are carried into adult life where they negatively impact relationships and are transmitted intergenerationally through parenting and other formative relationships. Can self work be the cure? Today we'll focus on this listener's real life Question My dad is an alcoholic and a workaholic. He's always had a switch that turns him from a good guy to a bad guy in a split second. Growing up, my mom did everything she could to avoid conflict. My dad's unpredictability and meanness went unchecked. I left home at 17. I'm 39 and finally see that my relationships go south because of old patterns. I want a healthy relationship and even a kid someday, but I'm stuck. I don't want to be like either of my parents. What can I do? And with that question as the focus of Today's episode, I'm Dr. Carla Marie Manley and this is Imperfect Love. Please note as this episode contains sensitive information, listener discretion is advised. If you need support, please see the special links in the show Notes.
- [01:51]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
Welcome to imperfect love with Dr. Carla Marie Manley, psychologist, author and relationship expert. I'm here to help unravel mysteries and misconceptions about love, relationships and mental health issues, plus everything in between. Love is complicated, people are not perfect, and relationships surely can be tough. Together we'll navigate this messy, imperfect space of real life.
- [02:22]
Dr. Carla Marie Manley
Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Robin. It's such a pleasure to have you with us today.
- [02:27]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
Thank you so much for having me and allowing me to talk about my favorite topic.
- [02:31]
Dr. Carla Marie Manley
Your favorite topic is trauma.
- [02:35]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
Trauma and specifically how it impacts us as parents and in our future relationships.
- [02:40]
Dr. Carla Marie Manley
Before we launch into this passion of yours, your favorite topic, your area of expertise, could you share with our listeners just a little bit about what makes you you?
- [02:52]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
I am a post traumatic parent myself. When I was a very young graduate student, I had this nagging fear in the back of my head that I knew I had PTSD from my traumatic childhood and I wanted to know how my PTSD would impact my children. Being a research geek, I went to the library and I looked for resources and there just Wasn't anything, there was nothing written about the ways in which trauma would impact me parenting my children. And I even remember when I gave birth to my oldest daughter. I was in the hospital and one of the nurses asked me what I do and I said, well, I am a PhD candidate, NYU, and I am a child development researcher. And she said, oh, my goodness, your baby is so lucky. She has a child development expert as her mom. And it was a lighthearted moment and she laughed and the other nurses laughed and I had such a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach because my thought was, this poor baby, she has me for a mother and I am so damaged. How will my damage not damage her? And I think for many post traumatic people, I think that's what happens, especially for those of us who on the surface appear very functional and on the surface we appear so good. I always, my analogy is like we're sort of like a duck, right? The duck is so serene, floating above the water, and then under the water, the duck's legs are paddling madly. Yeah. On the surface I looked so together. I'm a grad student and I'm having my baby and I'm in a loving, stable relationship like all the indicators for success are there. But deep down I felt so damaged and like you say, so imperfect. And I thought that only perfect people could be good parents.
- [04:38]
Dr. Carla Marie Manley
I am so grateful for your frankness, for your honesty, because there is that tendency for people to look at those in the realm of medicine or psychotherapy and project onto them this idea of perfection. And yet I think that what really can set us apart as clinicians, as healthcare practitioners is the fact that we can openly say we're not perfect, but that we're working on it. That we're working on healing, we're working on evolving, that we have struggles just like other people. We are imperfect just like everybody else. And again, if you're a good healthcare practitioner, or maybe let's say an excellent, wholehearted healthcare practitioner, you're working on yourself throughout your lifetime so that you can model not only to yourself and those in your environment, but also to your clients, what it looks like to be an imperfect, but, let's hope, wiser person evolving through life.
- [05:43]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
Yes. And I feel like that journey, like, I feel like I am a very present parent now because I think presence is much more important than perfection in parenting. I've learned that. I think I've become a much more present parent and I think I've become a much more joyful parent, especially with my younger children. But it was a journey because I really thought that like everything else, one of my sort of trauma coping tools was perfectionism. I really wanted to parent perfectly, but that desire to parent perfectly actually got in the way of my ability to parent with presence.
- [06:16]
Dr. Carla Marie Manley
You're already saying so many incredibly rich things. It sounds as if you come from somewhat of an attachment background. Attachment theory is that. Do you factor attachment theory into your practice, into your work?
- [06:33]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
Yes, very much. My book and my research and in terms of my classes with parents, I very much focus on attachment, but specifically on the idea that even if you don't have the internal working model of attachment. See, the way the attachment system is designed is that we're supposed to replicate the attachment we got. Because if you got good enough attachment, you actually have this beautiful internal working model of how to provide attachment. Like the system just self replicates and the system is built that way. But if you didn't get good attachment for whatever reason, and some of us had good attachment in our toddler years and our young years, but then there was a trauma. And a trauma can actually interfere with attachment, even if there was good attachment, because it can interfere with our sense of security in the world, which is what we want from attachment. What I have figured out is that you can learn how to repair that broken internal working model. And there's like specific ways to do it. It's not this mystery. I've had so many people tell me that reading attachment research makes them feel so hopeless because I don't have those things, so I don't know how to give those things. You say the four S's of attachment, right? We want our baby to feel safe, seen, soothed, secure. But I never felt those things. So how can I make someone else feel something that I've never felt? And it's a real serious, painful question. But there's a flip side, which is we can learn these skills. There are ways, there are specific ways and practices to instill all of those things in our kids, even if we didn't have them. And the added bonus is that we can actually heal our own inner child while we're doing it. Parenting is not just healthy, it's also healing for us. There's actually amazing research now about the early years of matrescence specifically. So now I'm talking to the post traumatic parents who are mothers, because this research, I'm not sure if this research goes with patrescence, which is the process of becoming a father, which is that our brains are reorganizing. There's a Tremendous burst of neural growth during matrescence. And our brains are reorganizing anyway we can. Actually, it's the perfect time to repair attachment wounds while we're providing attachment. And that is the most hopeful thing.
- [08:46]
Dr. Carla Marie Manley
It is so hopeful. So let's take a pause for our listeners to give them some background, because they may not be well versed in attachment theory, or it may not be something that's even on their radar. When we're talking listeners about attachment theory, it goes back into the 1950s to Bowlby and Ainsworth and Winnicott. And in fact, it was Winnicott who came up with the phrase that I just love called good enough parenting. And it lets us off the hook from being perfect parents, because none of us will ever be perfect at anything, much less parenting. And so the idea of being a good enough parent. And you'll likely hear Dr. Robin talk about this repeatedly. The word attunement. The good enough parent is appropriately attuned to the child. Let's say 80, 85, 90% of the time. And when you're able to do that, to really see that child, soothe the child, make the child feel safe and secure for not 100% of the time, that's physically, humanly impossible. But you are then able to help the child have this healthy, secure attachment to the caregiver, and then that's taken into the outside world. If that doesn't occur, then the child develops one of three types of insecure attachment, which. Which is, as you're saying, Dr. Robin, the beauty of the attachment model is that you can heal your attachment wounds. If you have an insecure attachment, you can earn a secure attachment. If you had a secure attachment and it got broken, then you can re earn that secure attachment. You can get that. You can maybe earn it for the first time. Whatever way you look at it, that's the backdrop for what we're talking about today. Back to you, Dr. Robin. Now let's look at the listener's question. Because I have so many thoughts for you. We'll start with the listener's question. What would you say to this listener who is giving us a glimpse into what their childhood may have looked like? What would you say?
- [11:07]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
First of all, it's a very courageous question to realize that in order to become a parent, I have to give birth to the mother of my children. Now I must give birth to the mother before I give birth to the children. So saying I want to heal because I eventually want to parent, and I don't want to replicate what I Saw, that's an amazingly insightful first step. Now I just want to normalize something because this happens in post traumatic parenting classes all the time. People are very familiar with trauma with the famous Kaiser Parmanenti study where they talked about adverse childhood experiences, which are like really difficult things that a child can experience, like the death of a parent, the incarceration of a parent, extreme poverty, extreme abuse. People look at trauma sometimes and they think that like, if they're not in those categories, they're not sufficient traumatized. But really, trauma, is any experience too big for your brain to metabolize? If it was too much and your brain said, what is going on here? I can't cope. Congratulations, you're traumatized. So I like to talk a lot about what I call s aces, which are the secret aces. There are a lot of families that look perfect and functional on the surface and people don't know. So sometimes you have a parent who's an alcoholic who, who's like Mr. Nice Guy to the world, and the family just seems lovely. There's the mother and the father, and it's like that old fashioned kind of 1950s sitcom family. And then behind closed doors, when dad has a hangover, he is a really mean drunk and he is scary and all the kids have to tiptoe around because we don't want to wake up dad and we don't get into like a fight. I can't feel seen because I might poke the sleeping bear and that's a really bad thing to do. And even though that family on the surface might look like, yeah, of course she has the four S's. She's missing scene and she's missing face. It's important to know that just because you go onto one of those apps and you try to take the aces quiz of did I have trauma in my childhood? And the traumatic experiences you had aren't on that quiz doesn't mean you didn't have a traumatic childhood because there are so many post traumatic parents in the post traumatic parenting community. And the classes that have this kind of childhood where there was a functional alcoholic that was so much damage, but then they questioned themselves, am I traumatized? Was that really bad? I mean, I know people who lost their mom to cancer. This isn't like that. But we don't play trauma poker. We're like, I see your trauma, I raise you my trauma. It's not a good game to play. No one wins. And it's a way of discounting other people's experiences. Yes, this listener is traumatized. And it is wise for her to work on healing that wound before she becomes a parent. And then she's likely going to have to continue healing that wound as she becomes a parent. Because trauma doesn't happen in the past, it happens in the future. So what sometimes happens is you experience something and you think of like, oh, it's a past event, like this happened to me once. But the truth is that attachment really keeps happening to you. And sometimes when you have a child, the wound that was like sort of scarred over rips open because you might suddenly realize just how young you were when you experienced something. So perhaps, let's say with this mom, maybe when she was 4, she was, you know, tiptoeing around her dad so as not to make him upset. And then one day she'll have a four year old and she'll look at how heartbreakingly young a four year old is. And she's not making the four year old tiptoe around her moods. And it's going to be so sad because she's suddenly going to realize like, oh, this is how you parent a 4 year old. I didn't get that. And it's not that you didn't heal or that you're not better, it's that you're being sort of re traumatized as you re experience four.
- [14:58]
Dr. Carla Marie Manley
That makes perfect sense. Dr. Robin. And let's take a pause because there's so much intense information here. And we want to look at this individual who wrote in, I don't know the gender, so I'm just calling them a they. It could be a potential father. Right. And I really appreciate that part where you're saying you must grow the healthy parent before you are the parent. If you're a dad to be or a mom to be, you want to be able to grow as best you can the healthy dad or the healthy mom. And if you already have little ones or big ones, it's never too late to grow that healthy dad or that healthy mom inside of you because you're able to then use that process of self growth to become a more well rounded human being and then a better uncle, a better person at work, a better aunt, a better grandfather, a better parent to your adult children. So it's never too late. I think that's a really important piece. The other piece, when you're talking about, let's take it back to the question about the alcoholic parent and the outside world's perception. And I've seen this with quite a few clients. Very few people know what's going on behind somebody's closed doors. So that household that looks high functioning, whether they have money, success, all the fun things, things, or whether they're, you know, just getting by. People often don't realize what's going on unless they see physical signs of alcoholism, physical signs of physical abuse. It can often be harder, and I'd like to know your opinion on this, for that person to actually fully appreciate that they were traumatized. And it sounds like that's what's happened. This listener who wrote in that the outside world may have seen that dad as high functioning and the mom, as you said, as being, you know, the Leave it to Beaver mom. But not realizing that inside the home, when you're walking on eggshells and things are highly dysfunctional, that can actually skew your perception of being traumatized because no one in the external world is validating it. No one is saying, your dad is a raging alcoholic or a dry drunk or a high functioning alcoholic. I'm sorry for you. You're going through a lot. Does that make sense, what I'm saying? That it's when you aren't validated from the outside world that, yes, this is trauma. I really see that people tend to believe that they weren't traumatized or to really push the trauma more under the surface because it was never seen and validated. What do you think?
- [17:52]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
I agree with everything you're saying. And I think that it's even worse when you have that parent who's the nice guy, and other people think of them as, this is the nicest guy. So even if you do reach out for support when you're a kid and you don't know what's normal, you might say something and people will say to you, your father, he's the nicest guy in the world. You know, what a jam he helped me out of, or when my car broke down, he fixed it for me. And then you really doubt yourself. It's like, is he the nicest guy in the world? Sometimes he's the nicest guy in the world because a father like that sometimes feels very guilty and is very overly loving and kind and fun and adventurous at some times. And then at other times is so scary. And in some ways that's the worst. We call that disorganized attachment when the parent is simultaneously the harbor and the storm. Like, you're the scary one, but I need to run to you because you're my parent. That's sometimes the worst thing. That kind of outside the Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde kind of Persona can really be confusing.
- [18:54]
Dr. Carla Marie Manley
Absolutely. And thank you for illustrating that and going into it more deeply because I do see that a lot in the adults I work with who had childhood trauma from that particular type. And the disorganized attachment is the most difficult style of attachment because it is based on the Dr. Jekyll Mr. Hyde. So you are always waiting. That adult is always waiting. That child is always waiting for the bad guy to come out. They're walking around on eggshells waiting for the criticism, waiting for the attack, waiting for this scary person to come out so they can never fully relax. They're constantly hyper vigilant. I do have another question for you on this piece. Have you noticed that for many people who had a Dr. Jekyll Mr. Hyde type in their background that they tend to either completely demonize the parent and the parent is all bad, or they completely idolize the parent that is harder for them to find a middle ground not only in the past, but also in the current world till they undergo the healing that they tend to be an all or nothing, all good, all bad kind of mindset. Have you noticed that?
- [20:14]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
I noticed, I think in the book I have like different subtypes of post traumatic parents. Like we have a perfectionist, a paralyzed, a disengaged, and they all have different styles. What I noticed more than an either or is that it's very confusing to grapple with the reality of our parents, especially our imperfect parents, but especially our toxic parents as adults. And a lot of times there's like a flip flop, there's like a coming in. They were completely awful. And then the hard part is they weren't completely awful. Sometimes they were great. And then. Or the other side of parent who just has to say constantly defend somebody in their past for the things they did wrong. But I really provoked it, but it was really more my fault. But you have to understand. Or blaming one parent, but absolving the other parent. And it's just a process, right? We have to mourn the childhood we never had and we have to come to terms with it and fully understand it. And sometimes for some of my patients, when they're on that healing journey, there's a time of either estrangement from a family of origin or setting very high and firm inflexible boundaries for a while. And then as the healing continues, if the parent wants to, not because their own parent wants, but because you know what? I'm willing to change these boundaries a drop and give you a chance. And it's a sign of healing to be Able to sort of, let's flexibly figure this out. Let's not always right. There are some extremely toxic relationships from childhood that really do just need to be over and there really is no way to repair them. But then there are times where we're gonna, we're gonna work with the boundaries and we're gonna see. I will give you a chance. I will come to a family holiday party, but I'm leaving after an hour. I will socialize with these siblings, but not these siblings for a while. I'll give it a chance and I'll see. And you know what? It's my choice. It's my boundaries. I get to decide and I get to figure out what I want to do with that. Because I think that sometimes the hardest part is when it isn't so clear cut, like this person was all bad and therefore I just don't have a relationship with anymore. When it's, there were certain things that were okay and there were other things that were really bad and I want to have a dialogue with them about it. I don't know how they'll receive the dialogue, but I can't be around them until we do have the dialogue. And I always say that there's two parts to any communication. There's the getting it said and the being heard. And getting it said is on you. You own your words, you have the right to get it said. The being heard is on the other person. They can either hear you or not. You don't have to sit there like figuring out the perfect words because you're going to argue this case in front of the Supreme Court and you're going to convince them. What you have to do is say your truth and they either can hear it or they can't. But that is entirely on them.
- [23:09]
Dr. Carla Marie Manley
Absolutely, Dr. Robin. And so just winding it back a little bit to emphasize some of the pieces that it's fairly common to have someone come in and either flip flop between a parent's all bad, all good. I've seen many people come in and think of one in particular where the mom was all bad. And as that individual did their work, they were able to see, oh, there were some good parts of mom. And then they were able to let mom in a little bit with nice boundaries. Let her in, let her in, let her in. And unfortunately, the mom's behavior hadn't changed. The mom hadn't done self work. So they had to have a strong boundary and keep mom out and the door may open again if change happens. And I've also Seen it with individuals who, where they idolized, say, the father, and the father was all good, all good, all good. And as they did their healing work, they were able to see, oh, well, yeah, there were really parts of this person that put me at risk, that hurt me, that hurt my siblings, that did a lot of negative things, and the unpredictability of the behavior has affected me. Now we're looping back to the listener's question. Who is a good example of this? Where they're saying, I can now really see the impact of these behaviors. How can I heal? What work can I do? And so I love that you're pointing us in that direction, that one of the key ways forward is to look at what occurred through as balanced a lens as you can, seeing the good and the not so good, appreciating both of them, or at least acknowledging both of them, appreciating the impact of them. And then if it feels safe, if the parent's still alive or around, that it is okay and can actually be healing to open the door and practice healthy boundary setting. Is that a good summation of what you've said?
- [25:09]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
Yeah. We can always, if we choose, give someone another chance and clearly state what the expectations are, and they either will rise to that or they won't. But then at least we have data and we say, okay, I gave this another chance. It didn't work. Now I know. And anybody who wants to criticize me or be upset about it, I tried one more time. And now I can say to myself that this boundary must remain in place in the way I want it to remain in place. Because remember, boundaries are about protecting relationships. They're not about walling people out. They're about saying, this is how close I can get to you and still feel safe. And this is how close you can get to me and still feel safe. It's not about very often in these situations. When I'm working with a family, with the grandparents, they say, my daughter's setting boundaries against me. And I always say, no, she's trying to set boundaries with you. I remember one mom who said to me one day, she thought I was much younger than her, so she said, one day you'll have adult children and they'll set boundaries against you, and you'll see how it feels. And I said, you know, I do have adult children and boundaries with me, and I am so happy because if I call my adult daughter and she is not available, I don't want her to grit her teeth and talk to me anyway. I want her to feel free to say it's not a great time, can I call you back tomorrow? And then we'll have a great conversation. Because the point of the conversation is connection. Even though she's not living at home anymore and she's an adult in her own right, I don't want her to gritt her teeth and tolerate me. That's not a relationship. Yes, of course my adult children have set boundaries with me because that is how relationships work. They're not how relationships don't work, they're how relationships do work.
- [26:48]
Dr. Carla Marie Manley
I agree. And I also like to see boundaries as oriented toward protecting relationships, including the relationship one has with oneself. And how. Because that. Let's get back to the attachment theory, which is about attunement. And when we attune to ourselves and know what we want and what we need in healthy ways, not in completely egocentric I want, I want, I want ways which that I want, I want, I want, I need, I need is often a sign of trauma. That child who wasn't protected so was all becomes all about themselves. But when we have really healthy attunement to what we need, then we're able to set healthy boundaries. And that's a big part of the healing then when you an individual has children or is already working with children to be able to model those healthy boundaries and also continue to do that healing. Because I'm a firm believer that one of the best things we can do in our relationships is to show healthy boundaries, healthy self care, healthy self love, to be able to say, hey, I have a boundary around this. I'm feeling really disrespected. That kind of behavior doesn't work for me and I want more for myself and for our relationship. And in that kind of healthy boundary setting, we are also healing that part of the self and possibly in the other person who didn't know what it was like to be respected, who wasn't allowed to step up and say, wait a second, this doesn't feel respectful. You know, as a 5 year old or 10 year old, I want self respect here. Because if you're growing up in a toxic environment, the parent's not going to care if you're disrespected or not. It's not even on their radar. You don't deserve respect. How does that strike you, Dr. Robin?
- [28:46]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
So I will tell you an interesting anecdote that happened to a parent in a post traumatic parenting class. There was a mom who was keeping very firm boundaries with her family because of her dad's alcoholism. And she and her husband decided together that they were going to go to the family holiday party for a very short time. Now, her mom did not have great boundaries. So her mom, the grandma called her daughter, who was about 10, maybe a little younger, and said, tell your mom that you want to stay at the party the whole time and why do you leave so early? So the kid said this to her mother, and she said, well, Debbie, she called me, and we, like, hashed it out. And she said, well, when I was little and we would have family holiday parties, grandpa drinks a lot of alcohol. And when he drinks a lot of alcohol, he starts saying hurting words. And the more alcohol he drinks, the more hurting words he says. So at the beginning of the party, he doesn't say any hurting words. But as the party goes on, there are more and more hurting words. I don't like hurting words, and I don't want you to hear hurting words. We're going to come to the party until the alcohol comes out, and then we're going to leave, because I don't want to sit around and hear hurting words. And I don't think you do either. So her daughter accepted that explanation. And about half a year later, this daughter was in a. In a situation that there was, like, a real mean girl bullying kind of situation going on in the grade. Her daughter stood up to the mean girl and said, you can't speak to me that way. You can't speak to anybody that way. This is not okay. And she recruited adult support. And. And like, the teacher called this mom, and she said, you, daughter is so impressive. Like, kids don't usually handle this kind of, like, relational aggression. Mean girl bullying, the way your daughter. She just knew that this is not behavior she's going to tolerate, and she set a firm boundary, and this was stellar. What did you do? I want to know. I'm a mom myself. I want to know what you did. And you know what she did. She modeled it herself. I won't subject you to hurting words. I won't listen to hurting words. The impact that had on her daughter was this incredible sense of self and this incredible sense of, you cannot disrespect me, because my mom doesn't believe that I should be disrespected, and my mom doesn't believe that she should be disrespected. And the whole family having that same voice of, yes, we will go to the holiday party for a little while until there's a risk of hurting words, and then we will vote with our feet was just incredibly Powerful like. She reached out to me months after the parenting class emailed me to tell me this story. She said, you have to hear the story.
- [31:14]
Dr. Carla Marie Manley
It is such an incredible story and so emblematic of the power of a parent doing the work. The mom in this situation clearly did work to understand whether it was with on her own or with a psychotherapist. Hugh. To understand the importance of knowing that she didn't have to tolerate that kind of environment and how to use imessages to say, I won't tolerate this. It does not feel healthy to me. It's not okay with me. Hurtful words are not okay with me. And then she modeled that for the daughter in that moment of not only standing up for herself and her beliefs and her right to be respected, she then intergenerationally gave that gift to her daughter. We're not talking. We're talking about the antithesis of the transmission of intergenerational violence. We're talking about the transmission, the intentional transmission of intergenerational healthy coping mechanism, healthy boundaries, healthy love, genuine love. Such a beautiful example, Dr. Robbins. So beautiful.
- [32:31]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
And you'll notice that the mom first she processed with me, right? She didn't say to her daughter, grandpa's a toxic narcissist. Right? She didn't say anything developmentally inappropriate. She didn't even interfere with her daughter's ability to have a relationship with her grandpa. She just set boundaries around it.
- [32:48]
Dr. Carla Marie Manley
So beautiful. Because we can see how then the daughter's behavior was impactful to the group of mean girls. It also impacted the teacher and her parenting abilities. And it goes back to the mother having had the desire to become a healthier human being and a healthier parent. So you look at all of the people that she touched in a positive way through her own self work, and I applaud that. It is one of my favorite things in life. When you see that you worked with a client and that they have done the work that we hold the lantern, we hold the light, but they do the work, they do the heavy lifting and they make a difference. They stop. That daughter will then be a force in not using, as you call them, hurting words. Because let's pause just for a minute, please, on the power of hurting words. I am a big believer in the power of loving words. And I am a big believer in the ability of hurting words to stay with us, to linger, to cause trauma in their own right. And you probably hear this from your clients. I know I have from my client base where a phrase from a father or a mother or brother or sister. That was just this punch. And it's usually not just that one phrase. It wasn't a one off. It's usually the one that became symbolic. The psyche didn't take in and retain all of the other ones. Or maybe it took it in, but it didn't retain the plethora of similar hurting comments, hurtful comments. That individual psyche is just filled with all of these words of prejudice, criticism, hatefulness, meanness. Then that person carries it on in their psyche and transmits, it transmits all of that negativity into their love, relationships, their work relationships, their parenting, all of these. What do you think about the power of hurting words to cause trauma in and of themselves?
- [35:11]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
I agree with you. I think that sometimes the hurting words, because, you know, our brains are pattern analyzers and pattern generators. What happens is, you know that that used to happen to me in childhood where I would discover a new vocabulary word and suddenly I would hear it everywhere, right? Because what happens is, oh, my eyes are suddenly open to this word. Now I'm looking for it. Once someone uses a hurting word towards you, you're worthless, you're selfish, you're lazy, you're stupid, whatever that word is, your brain starts looking for evidence to confirm or disconfirm it, because those are the words our brains are primed to look for the words that could get us socially rejected. Because social acceptance is survival, social rejection is dangerous. We're looking for those words. So if you hear worthless or you hear stupid, your brain is going to be looking for, like, worthless and stupid forever. And the disconfirming evidence is just going to become like, oh, so today I wasn't worthless. It's not going to become, wait, I'm not worthless. And I've never actually been worthless. And to this day, I had a relative, not a parent, who used to call me lazy as a child. And I remember being someone who was very productive in life, yet always felt lazy. And I had this with a patient who told me, too lazy to do something. And this woman is not lazy. Like somebody who, like, really personifies that, like, pushing yourself through trauma, Someone who started a business and who is a single mom and just like, pushes herself in every way. And I remember when she said this, I said, you do know that you're not lazy, right? And we had to really, like, whose voice is saying lazy? But when I finished that session with her, I had to go to my own therapist and say, oh, that session hit me hard, because that is me. And I still have that lazy voice inside of Me, I know whose voice it is and we need to work on this. And still to this day, even though I am a very productive person and I am very proud of what I've done and proud that I figured out how to be a post traumatic parent, I'm proud. I'm genuinely satisfied and proud of like, the clinical work I do with people. Like what you said about being in awe of the courage of people who do the work. I get to see that every day. But there's still a little voice inside of me that says, but maybe you're lazy. And thankfully I know enough to dispute that voice and really talk back to it and really say to it like, I know who sold you. It's okay, that person doesn't get a vote. But these words, you're so right that these words and we think like, oh, big deal. So somebody disrespected me a lot when I was a kid and said these mean things to me. So what? But that's what has to be processed in therapy a lot. Sometimes more than the trauma that's on the surface is the hurting words.
- [38:03]
Dr. Carla Marie Manley
Thank you, Dr. Robin. I 100% agree. Because those, you know, our brains as children, they are like little sponges and they are taking in everything. And when somebody that we look up to, our protectors, our mom and dad, the people who should be our protectors, even if they're not, we still tend to look up to them because they're all we have. And so we look up and these big figures are telling us, either you're wonderful, you're strong, you made a mistake, that's okay, let's figure it out, let's do it differently. That's one way of being. And the other way of being. Well, there are many permutations, but a deep contrast is the parent who says, you're an idiot, you're stupid, you're worthless, you'll never amount to anything. And whichever parent you have, that's the one you're going to believe because your brain is a little sponge that's soaking up all of this. And unless you have someone or something in your life that seriously counteracts those messages, it is exactly what you said. It's the confirmation bias. You're going through life looking for evidence. Forget all of the good evidence about what a wonderful person you are and how productive kind you can be, your brain is searching for validation. And in this case, it would likely be the dad's voice that was coming in and saying, you're bad, you're not worthy, you're a horrible human being, whatever the trauma was. Because all sorts of things come out of the mouths of addicts. I mean, prefrontal cortex is disinhibited and all sorts of vomit is spewed onto people in the environment. And yet the child doesn't have the mental capacity to know, oh, dad's inebriated. I should distance myself from his words. They don't have meaning. I'm a really good person. Child's not capable of doing that. In fact, many adults aren't capable of doing that. And so the child consumes those words as if they are truth and is then hobbled through their entire lifetime until, as you say so beautifully, whose voice is that? Is that the voice of grandma? Is that the voice of grandpa? Is that the voice of dad, of mom, of big brother? Whose voice is that? That is taunting me. That is terrorizing me. And I also like how you said that voice doesn't get a vote. They do not get a seat at the table. They do not even belong in your head. That voice can be excised and set over here so the voice will keep coming back. It's part of the wiring. And even if you do good therapy, the voice will come in now again. It'll come in less and less and have less and less power over you the more you work at putting that voice away from the table. Is that pretty much what you're saying, Dr. Robin?
- [41:03]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
Exactly. And it doesn't have to be a parent. It could be a teacher. You have to be very careful. In the schools I consult in, I don't allow teachers ever, when they're consulting with me, to use a pejorative term for a child. I always restate it positively. Even that, like, mean girl statement, right? I wasn't consulting with that school. She has leadership abilities that she needs to learn to channel properly. Like, the minute someone says that to me, oh, he's lazy. He really values efficiency, and we have to teach him how to tolerate discomfort and maximize some effort. Like, I don't ever allow a teacher to use a pejorative language. Whatever that pejorative language is. I always challenge them. How can we restate that positively? There is always a positive way to restate it. She's not a mean girl. She has leadership abilities. She's just not using them properly.
- [41:50]
Dr. Carla Marie Manley
And I love that because neuro linguistically, you and I both likely work from the same framework of the power of our word choices. And sometimes we're actually not choosing them. They're just wrote something that's been in the brain. Or for example, when you talk about the mean girls, might be a meme that's out in society, a mean girls movie or something where people are choosing those words and realizing, wait a minute, I get to start choosing my words. And sure, I'll slip up now and again, we all do. But if I start choosing my words, my words about myself, I'm not stupid as dad or teacher said I was. In fact, English might not be my forte, but I'm really gifted over here and I can maybe won't be a word wizard throughout life. But it doesn't mean I'm stupid. It simply means that it's not my strong subject. And that's okay. Not every subject. So when we start using the power of neuro linguistics to set the bar higher for ourselves in a really compassionate, loving way that allows us to be better individuals, better partners, better parents, which is what we're going back to in the question of the day that this individual is not destined to be the chaotic father or the doormat of a mother. The mother who was so afraid of conflict that she just let the dad. Sounds like the dad just had his way with everything that this individual can do. The healing work in psychotherapy using self help groups, using group work. Let's take a pause here, because now we're into tools for the listener. What do you think about the power of Christ Group work?
- [43:39]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
So I love groups. I feel like there's something about being with other humans who have experienced similar things, that it's one thing when a therapist tells you, you know, like when I say to my patient, you are not lazy. It's another thing when other people in a group who have experienced similar things and are, have struggled and are impressive. This group member might look at someone else and say like, wow, she's incredible. And she says, you're not lazy. I know where that's coming from. There's also insight when people have been through analogous experiences to each other that you get that you can't always get one on one in therapy. I love the combination and sometimes the flip flopping between, like, I do therapy, I'll do a group for a while, I'll journal for a while, I'll go back into therapy. Like, therapy is a journey, healing's a journey. And sometimes one aspect of healing is going to work and then you've sufficed it for a while. And sometimes a different type of healing is going to work. And sometimes you try something, it's not for you. Like you try groups and it's not for you. And maybe it was just the dynamic of that group or maybe you're in a different place in your healing journey and then five years later you try a group and it's wonderful. I think it's about using the tools that are available to you as you go through your journey.
- [44:55]
Dr. Carla Marie Manley
Absolutely. And I also, I agree with you. I say this a lot on the podcast about how important group work is because not only is it often no cost or low cost, but in a well run group the confidentiality is there. And witnessing, even if you're not speaking, just witnessing, as you were saying, the analogous experience, seeing your experience in somebody else's words, in their eyes is so bonding because it's another human being and you're able to say, oh, I'm not alone. That other person had a difficult childhood experience. That other person had the veneer of the ideal family on the outside with a horror show or now and again unpredictable horror show on the inside. Oh, that individual got terrorized by the mom or the older brother. So I'm not alone. And that other person who's has a high functioning lifestyle also had trauma or oh, that person over there also struggles in their relationships because they haven't learned how to work through the trauma yet. And it's just such a powerful, often overlooked resource in people's communities. And I know in our own community there are many groups for women, especially women who had suffered abuse. Whether it's ongoing abuse or past abuse, there are great groups. There's a group for men called Men Men Evolving non violently, which I wish was a nationwide resource because so many men grew up in violent households. Because violence is often male to male violence, it's often accepted as a norm, like it's okay because that's what men do. Men are angry, men are aggressive, men are sarcastic. And we are now, I believe, evolving enough as a society to see that there's no place for this kind of violence, there's no place for this kind of disrespect behind closed doors or outside in public. It's not a healthy way of being for individuals, for partners, for kiddos, not for anyone. What do you think, Dr. Robin?
- [47:22]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
I think the most important thing is the idea that just because this is how it's always been doesn't mean it's how it always has to be. And to me, when people start seeing that in their own therapy and in their own lives, that tells me that we've reached a milestone in healing. You know, like just because my dad was sarcastic and mean doesn't mean I need to be. And just see when you see that, then you are already so much further in your healing journey than you realize you are.
- [47:51]
Dr. Carla Marie Manley
Bravo, Dr. Robin. Just a beautiful place to start winding up. Are there any other thoughts that you would like to share with our listeners? I know there's so much more, but any final pieces?
- [48:03]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
I think what people need to know is that when you're a post traumatic parent, that sense of I don't know how to do this can sometimes lead to pulling back from parenting or outsourcing your parenting to other people, maybe to your parenting partner, maybe to paid people. Because like I don't know how and I know that that comes from a protective place inside of us where I want to shield my children from danger and my damage is dangerous. But not only is your damage not dangerous, if you work with your damage, your damage can be transformative and it can make you into the parent your kid needs. Because in the end, our children want their attachment figures and they want imperfectly present us. What you said at the beginning about DW Winnicott and saying about good enough mothering, one of his I think best lines is this idea that even the beneficial is toxic in the excess. Vitamin D is good. Too much vitamin D really bad for you, right? And it's like that with anything. Tylenol is good. A whole bottle of Tylenol, not so good. Perfect parenting is toxic in the excess because children need present parenting. And you can do this, you can be that present parent. It just means healing. And for many post traumatic parents, that protective instinct for our kids is what finally motivates us to make those changes. And to me that is the most beautiful, incredible, courageous thing.
- [49:38]
Dr. Carla Marie Manley
I agree. I believe that any self work we do because it's not easy and it is lifelong. And it takes true courage to do trauma healing. It takes true courage to dive in and do the self work. And it takes true courage to realize you'll never get it perfect. You will never get it perfect. And the very best you can do is to get better and better. And when you stumble, as you will, as we all do, we all stumble. The very best thing you can do as a parent, as a partner, as a caretaker, as a teacher, is to have the courage to say, I'm sorry, this is what I did, that I wish I had done better. And this is what I will strive to do differently in the future. And by doing that, not only are we neuro linguistically telling ourselves, this is what I'm going to work toward next time, it's okay, that I made a misstep. But we are showing that other person our true intentions of evolving into a better human being, a kinder human being, a more respectful human being. And that's what our world needs. Yes. Dr. Robin, I so appreciate your wisdom, your time, your energy. Where can our listeners find you? And could you tell us a little bit about where they can find your book and a little bit about your book?
- [51:06]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
The post traumatic parenting community really organically grew on Instagram and you can find it at Dr. Kozaletpsychology. And that's really where the post traumatic parents hang out. We have a Facebook group as well. That's really the more organic place. And we are very active. The community is very active. People will post suggestions for reels and questions and specific content that they're looking for. I'm pretty active in my DMs and in my comments. I can't always promise because sometimes I'm not on there. But on the whole, I really want to hear from the community. I also have a YouTube channel that's called Post Traumatic Parenting. And that's where I do like slightly longer form videos where a lot of community members will send me like Reddit threads that they want my take on or specific questions and they're parenting. Like recently, a lot of post traumatic parents don't have great discernment. When someone says gives them feedback on their parenting, they immediately doubt themselves. YouTube is really where I answer those questions. Like a mom recently asked me if she should use baby talk because someone told her it could harm her baby's brain development. That's where I can answer questions like that in slightly longer form. And then we have the Post Traumatic Parenting podcast that's available wherever you get your podcast. And the book is Post Traumatic Parenting. The publisher is broadleaf. And it's really somewhat of a prescriptive, somewhat of a descriptive, like there's aspects of my own story interwoven in. But it's all about the beginning of the book is all about how trauma interferes with parenting. And the end of the book is what to do about it in terms of your own trauma and then what to do about it in terms of parenting practices, like what to actually do with your children. Most post traumatic parents know what they don't want to do, but they don't know necessarily what they do want to do. So that's really the book is all three of those components. Like I said, it's the book I would have needed when I became a mom. So I had to write it myself.
- [53:03]
Dr. Carla Marie Manley
Those are the best kind of books in my mind, the ones that are written from the heart and from life experience. And then they offer really grounding guidelines for how to do it differently. As you said, the way you wish you had had direction to do it. Dr. Robin, thank you so much. And listeners, I'll give the spelling of Dr. Robin's name. It's Dr. Robin R O B Y N Koslowitz K O S L O W I T Z and you can find her also through the show notes and there will also be a link to little bits that she's described so that you'll be able to access her on Facebook and Instagram. And you are such an incredible resource, Dr. Robin. You make healing from trauma not only possible, but you also make it something that we can see, helps us truly that we can do it. We can become the human beings, the parents that we never had and the parents that we want to be. Thanks again.
- [54:11]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
Thank you so much. I love this podcast and I love the way you are so open to talking to so many different experts and working together to answer listener questions because I think that collaboration and that putting our heads together is the best thing because that really models how to do it.
- [54:30]
Dr. Carla Marie Manley
Thank you Dr. Robin. And I think it's the way forward for our world. That collaboration is something that has been sorely missing and so thank you for that and kudos to you for all the work you do. And as always to our listeners, thank you for sharing your time and your energy with us today. And this is Imperfect Love.
- [54:55]
Dr. Robin Kozlowitz
Thanks so much for sharing your time with me today. Remember, you have the power to transform your life, life and love fearlessly if imperfectly, and it's my privilege to help you along the way. You can find more life changing content, including my books and other podcast episodes@drcarlamanley.com Feel free to submit your own confidential questions through my website. I'll do my very best to include your issue on a future episode. If you found this podcast helpful, please subscribe and leave a review until we connect again. This is Dr. Carla Marie Manley wishing you oceans of blessings and love. Please note this podcast is psycho educational in nature and is not intended to replace formal mental health support. Please contact your healthcare provider or emergency hotline if you need psychiatric care. And as always, please take good care of your amazing, wonderful self.