Handel's Messiah

Summary

In Our Time – Handel’s Messiah

BBC Radio 4 | Host: Misha Glenny | Aired: May 7, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of "In Our Time," hosted by Misha Glenny, explores Handel’s Messiah—one of the most revered works in Western music. Together with guests Donald Burrows (Emeritus Professor of Music, Open University), Ruth Smith (Trustee, The Handel Institute), and Larry Zazzo (Countertenor and Senior Lecturer, Newcastle University), the conversation traces Messiah’s creation, historical and religious context, unique musical qualities, its reception from premiere to modern times, and the enduring appeal of this iconic work.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Handel’s Background and Arrival in London

• Handel’s Pre-London Career: Trained as an organist in Halle, then composed operas and oratorios in Hamburg and Italy, where he wrote his first oratorios.
  • “He was off to Hamburg, to the opera house. He’s then composing operas, playing from the harpsichord, leading the performances...” (03:14, Donald Burrows)
• Arrival and Reputation in London: Arrived in 1714; gained reputation as an opera composer. Held experience from various musical traditions.
• Strategic Advantages: Became master of court music in Hanover, which placed him in direct connection to the future British throne—a fortuitous political link.
  • “The Elector of Hanover is in the next in line to the British throne, which presumably was to Handel’s advantage.” (04:25, Misha Glenny)

2. The Composition of Messiah

• Speed of Composition: Messiah was written remarkably fast, within three weeks (Aug 22 – Sept 13, 1741).
  • “He was a fast, intense worker... a finished setting of the complete text.” (04:37, Donald Burrows)
• Preparation: The speed refers to manuscript production—the creative process and thematic ideas came earlier.
• Musical Borrowing: Handel frequently adapted melodies from his earlier works and other sources (e.g., Italian duets) for Messiah.
  • “Messiah, in fact, Handel borrowed from Italian duets. So… the chorus ‘For Unto Us a Child is Born’... the original was an Italian duet.” (06:11, Larry Zazzo)

3. Oratorio Defined and Messiah’s Librettist

• What is an Oratorio? Not staged as opera; performed in concert settings, often in oratories (non-church religious buildings), using similar musical forms as opera (06:52, Donald Burrows).
• Charles Jennens (Librettist):
  • Devout Anglican, deeply loyal to Handel, wrote libretti only for him, and did so anonymously. His profound emotional and personal struggles—especially regarding his brother’s suicide—infused the libretto with yearning for comfort and redemption.
  • “Jennens started writing librettos for Handel partly because he was a Handel addict. Any words united with his music become sacred for me.” (07:48, Ruth Smith)
  • “Suicide... was particularly, I think, terrible for Jennens because... Robert was cutting himself off from salvation after death.” (09:01, Ruth Smith)
  • The libretto is pervaded by the theme of universal redemption—"all shall be saved."
  • “All through we are being told that all shall be saved. And Handel in a crucial chorus repeats that: shall all, shall all be saved.” (10:36, Ruth Smith)

4. Singers and Musical Forces in Dublin

• Casting Challenges: Handel could not rely on London’s opera stars in Dublin due to war, cost, and restricted availability, leading to a mixture of less virtuoso English singers and actors.
  • “He was at a bit of a crisis… did not have access to his usual cohort of extremely versatile opera singers trained in Italy.” (11:24, Larry Zazzo)
• Susanna Cibber: Noted for deep emotional delivery rather than vocal strength—a singer-actress with a scandalous personal background.
• Flexible Vocal Writing: Messiah’s parts suit both virtuoso and simple, highly expressive singers; written with no single voice type in mind.

5. Messiah’s Dublin Premiere

• Why Dublin?: Handel accepted an invitation to Dublin—a musically vigorous city, with professional choirs, an ideal concert hall, and a thriving philanthropic tradition.
  • “Dublin had built a new concert hall, neutral ground... there was nothing like that in London.” (18:54, Ruth Smith)
• Charity and Public Reception: Premiered as a charity event, Messiah was received with rave reviews.
  • “Words are wanting to express the exquisite delight it afforded to the admiring, crowded audience...” (20:28, Ruth Smith)
• Demand: The debut was so anticipated that women were asked to forgo hoops and men to check their swords for greater seating.

6. Messiah’s Structure and Musical Significance

• Textual and Musical Innovation: Most oratorios set poetic, metrical verse; Messiah instead fuses prose rhythms from scripture, giving it a unique flow.
  • “With this… you have the different rhythms from the prayer book and from the Psalms... a particular flow to the English language.” (23:42, Donald Burrows)
• Imagery and Progression: Over 60% of verses are Old Testament—rich, energetic imagery rendered with musical contrast and variety (potter’s vessel, refiner’s fire, darkness/light); contrasts are both musical and emotional.
  • "Often Handel also makes us think by giving musical variety to his depiction of a single image.” (25:20, Ruth Smith)
• Audience Engagement: Unlike staged opera, Messiah’s arias directly address the audience, challenging them with questions and calls to action.
  • “In this piece… I’m questioning the audience… it’s very active engagement... almost demands a response.” (25:27, Larry Zazzo)

7. Why Messiah Endures—Psychological, Social, and Artistic Dimensions

• Not a Narrative: Messiah is a statement of faith, not a life story. Its open-ended, elusive structure allows maximum emotional and philosophical engagement (43:29, Ruth Smith).
• Contrast and Emotional Sweep: Alternates between communal grandeur (e.g., Hallelujah chorus) and individual redemption (“I know that my Redeemer liveth”), spanning a universe of emotion.
  • “There is something about the choruses which are so… incredibly strong.” (28:13, Larry Zazzo)
• Communal and Generous Qualities: Its inclusivity and lack of theological dogma or villain make it accessible and uplifting to diverse audiences.
  • “It doesn’t exclude people by being very focused on doctrine… the difficult issue of the Trinity isn’t there. Hell isn’t there.” (41:57, Ruth Smith)
• Flexibility in Performance: Handel frequently revised the score to fit available performers and venues, accounting for countless versions—making it widely adaptable.

8. Political, Religious, and Social Context

• 18th-Century Religious Doubt: Enlightenment uncertainties and changing views of God, biblical authorship, and morality led to anxiety about religious faith. Messiah functioned both as reaffirmation and balm for these uncertainties.
  • “Religious certainties, religious beliefs had been torpedoed… God had been depersonalized...” (30:17, Ruth Smith)
• Reception and Controversy: Some felt it was blasphemous for being performed in theaters; others, not sacred enough.
  • “What a profanation of God’s name and word is this? ... much stranger to have heard it sung in a playhouse.” (32:31, Larry Zazzo)

9. Messiah and Christmas

• Seasonal Association: Although premiered in April and originally tied to Passiontide/Easter, Dublin tradition soon linked Messiah with December charity events, leading to its global Christmas prominence.
  • “For the relief of debtors, that charity, they regularly performed Messiah in December. That is how it became associated first with that season.” (40:06, Donald Burrows)

10. The Work’s Moral and Lasting Appeal

• Redemptive Power: For Christians, Messiah is redemptive, but its emotional force and musical ingenuity appeal even to non-believers.
  • “It continues to be welcomed by people all over the world, people in countries which are not Christian at all ...the propagation of the Gospel is one of the evidences of Christianity, which Jennings is careful to include. And look, it’s happened with Messiah.” (43:29, Ruth Smith)
• Perennial Relevance: Select texts, like “Why do the nations so furiously rage together?” resonate continuously with the contemporary world. (44:59, Larry Zazzo)

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On the composition’s speed:
  • Donald Burrows: “He started that on 22 August, finished it on 13 September... get a few quill pens, a couple of pints of black ink and 250 pages of music paper and see if you can write it out in that time.” (04:37)
• On Jennens’ personal connection:
  • Ruth Smith: “Jennens was saddled with this terrible recognition that probably his brother would be rotting in hell forever. So it’s no surprise that Messiah begins with the word comfort...” (09:01)
• On the work’s emotional universality:
  • Ruth Smith: “It’s a very communal work and it’s a very generous work.” (28:59)
• On musical engagement:
  • Larry Zazzo: “Unlike an opera where a character is feeling an emotion and the audience is passively... In this piece... I’m questioning the audience. But who may abide? ... a statement I know that my redeemer liveth. Ask in the audience to do something.” (25:27)
• On communal singing and modern popularity:
  • Ruth Smith: “If you look on YouTube at flash mob hallelujah choruses... it comes to over 70 million [views], which is more than the population of Britain.” (56:30)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Handel’s career context and arrival in London – 03:14–04:31
• Composing Messiah: process and musical borrowing – 04:37–06:11
• Definition and context of oratorio – 06:48–07:27
• Charles Jennens and libretto’s personal roots – 07:48–11:09
• Messiah’s first performers, Susanna Cibber’s story – 11:24–14:32
• Handel’s health and career before Messiah – 14:59–15:47
• Why Dublin for the premiere; Irish context & charity – 18:47–21:02
• Unique qualities of the Messiah’s text and music – 23:37–28:13
• Communal appeal and audience participation – 28:13–29:46
• Religious doubt and its reflection in Messiah – 30:02–32:17
• Reception controversies: sacred vs. secular – 32:31–34:53
• Messiah’s shifting seasonal association – 39:45–41:57
• Summary and reason for ongoing popularity – 43:02–44:59
• Bonus: Performance history and versions – 49:07–53:16
• Modern popularity and "Hallelujah" flash mobs – 55:58–56:44

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Conclusion: Enduring Legacy

Handel’s Messiah endures because it bridges religion, artistry, community, and individual emotion. Its universality, adaptability, and musical genius continue to resonate through the centuries—uplifting both devout Christians and those of any or no faith, and offering a space for communal art and personal reflection.

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Participants:

• Host: Misha Glenny
• Guests: Donald Burrows, Ruth Smith, Larry Zazzo

For further reading, see the episode’s recommended materials. Next week: Mathematics and the Impossible Perspectives of M.C. Escher.

Transcript

[Donald Burrows]

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[Misha Glennie]

This is in our time from BBC Radio 4, and this is one of more than a thousand episodes you can find in the In Our Time archive. A reading list for this edition can be found in the episode description of wherever you're listening. I hope you enjoy the program. Hello. In 1742, in a secular Dublin music hall, the first audience heard Handel's Messiah, a sacred oratorio, from its first word, comfort to the chorus of hallelujahs to the last Word, Amen. The librettist, Charles Jennens, had drawn from biblical texts prophecies about the coming of Jesus, the Messiah, the Nativity, the suffering of Christ, and his death, and and the day of judgment and redemption for all. Handel continued to adapt his Messiah for later performances, and it proved to be one of his most popular works, becoming a favourite of massed choirs around the world far beyond the scale of Handel's original, well with me to discuss Handel's Messiah are Ruth Smith, trustee and council Member of the Handel Institute, Larry Zazzo, countertenor and Senior Lecturer in Music at Newcastle University, and Donald Burrows, Emeritus professor of Music at the Open University. Donald, I'd like to start with you. Handel was born in Halle, in Brandenburg, in 1685, but he'd been based in London since around 1714. What should we know about his life and reputation in London?

[Donald Burrows]

His reputation in London in the first place was as an opera composer. He also carried with him experience from the previous years. Trained as an organist in Halle, he signed up for the University of Halle. That only lasted a year. He was off to Hamburg, to the opera house. He's then composing operas, playing from the harpsichord, leading the performances in Hamburg. That's while the leading composer is away. As soon as the composer comes back again, he's off to Italy. There's no opera in Rome, but he does other things. He does church music and it's there he writes his first oratorios and he goes to Hanover, where he is appointed Master of the Music at the court, but on the condition he makes that he can go elsewhere, because he wants to carry on writing operas. There's no opera in Hanover. And it's at that point that he then comes to London. He has to go back to his job in Hanover, but then he comes back to London again and the Elector of Hanover is in the next in line to the British throne, which presumably

[Misha Glennie]

was to Handel's advantage.

[Donald Burrows]

He foresaw this, to put it mildly, there.

[Misha Glennie]

Apparently, Handel wrote this very quickly, within the space of about three weeks or so. Was that usual for him?

[Donald Burrows]

He was a fast, intense worker. What we have with the autograph is a finished setting of the complete text. He started that on 22 August, finished it on 13 September or whatever. It so happens that 22 August is also a Saturday this year. If you wanted to try it out, get a few quill pens, a couple of pints of black ink and 250 pages of music paper and see if you can write it out in that time.

[Misha Glennie]

So, you know, it is very quick.

[Donald Burrows]

It is very quick, but. But it's the end of the process. Composition has happened up to that point. You don't just write the notes on paper. A lot of thinking has gone into

[Misha Glennie]

that and a lot of it's going on in his head.

[Donald Burrows]

A lot of it's going on in his head. The business of composition from the first stage, which is reading Jennings's words and thinking now, how's this going to go? You have to think of the total structure of arias, what singers? Who's going to sing this one? How's that going to go? What's the mood? Is it major or minor key? Is it fast? Is it slow? And then, of course, the business of actual musical themes. Ideas that sometimes the words stimulate a particular melodic line. And quite often, because Handel's got a head full of tunes, he reads some words and thinks, hmm, I've got something for that. And he riffles through his stuff and finds there's an old thing there somewhere that was just perfect. Larry, for those who I think it's

[Larry Zazzo]

really important to mention that it's your issue of borrowing. I mean, what we think of as being such a genius and such unique, these great melodic hooks that we think are so original. Messiah, in fact, Handel borrowed from Italian duets. So one of the famous choruses is for unto us a Child is Born, and everybody has it in their head. The original was an Italian duet which begins no di voi non vo fi d armi. And that's why it begins with four unto. Which is a little bit odd from an English standpoint. Right. Handles a German. But it's so because it comes from another duet, somehow that makes it more memorable us, I think.

[Misha Glennie]

Donald, can you tell us exactly what an oratorio is?

[Donald Burrows]

Well, in simple terms, it's something you perform in an oratory, that is to say, a separate building, not for the Mass, not for church services, but for presentation of religious topics, which may be from scripture. It may be symbols of characters operating on humans, selfishness or time or that sort of thing. Or it may be lives of the saints or something like that. Opera and then oratorio came along together, and they used the same musical forms.

[Misha Glennie]

So the transition from opera to oratorio in that case wasn't quite so difficult. But of course, you need a librettist. And Ruth Smith, I'd like to ask you about the librettist for Messiah, Charles Jennens. What was his relationship with Handel like, both personally and professionally?

[Ruth Smith]

Jennings started writing librettos for Handel partly because he was a Handel addict. Any words united with his music become sacred for me, he said, which is extraordinary, given that Jennings was a devout Anglican. He wrote librettas for nobody else. And he certainly wasn't looking for fame because he didn't sign any of them. They were anonymous, which is why right into the 19th and 20th centuries, there was some doubt whether this obscure country squire could actually have put the text of Messiah together. Or, conversely, well, that was an easy job. It's just scripture verses. But Jennings wanted to foster Handel's career in every possible way. He was very generous to Handel in all sorts of ways. By the time he comes to do the libretto for Messiah, he's got a permanent subscription with Handel for copies of all Handel's music. He's already acquired all Handel's published music with generous subscriptions. Now he wants every note. And he built up an unrivalled Handel collection. I mean, it's still unrivalled, though now dispersed. But at the time it was unique.

[Misha Glennie]

So he was wealthy, committed to Handel. But the Messiah as a libretto, it begins with the word comfort. Why would that have a particular resonance for Jennens?

[Ruth Smith]

Jennens was depressive, lonely. The times were out of joint for him. He was concerned, as many were, many devout Anglicans were, about the decline of religious faith in Britain. He was politically out of joint with the times. Jennings believed in the divine right of kings. The head of Charles I, the executed monarch, Stuart monarch, was on his seal ring. He was in a form of internal exile because you couldn't have any kind of public position, any kind of public profession, whether in the military, parliament, the church, the university, unless you forswore loyalty to the Stuart, which he wasn't prepared to do. So he was lonely politically, he was lonely socially for that reason, partly. And then there was perhaps the worst thing of all and very much the background emotionally to Messiah, which was the way one of his brothers died, his sole surviving brother, when Jennings was 28 and his brother Robert was studying for the bar at the Middle Temple, cut his throat and threw himself out of the window. Now, of course, the suicide of one's brother would be a terrible thing for anybody, but it was particularly, I think, terrible for Jennings because by taking his own life, Robert was cutting himself off from salvation after death. Ask the majority of the population in Britain at that time, were they Christian? They would say yes. If you were Christian, you believed that there was judgment at death and then there was hell or heaven. If you had taken your own life, there was hell. So Jennings was saddled with this terrible recognition that probably his brother would be rotting in hell forever. So it's no surprise that Messiah begins with the word comfort, begins the second part of Messiah. Behold the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world, the whole world. And finally I know that my Redeemer liveth is how the final part ends. And all through we are being told that all shall be saved. And Handel in a crucial CHORUS REPEATS that shall all, shall all be saved. So there's a very personal reason, I think, underlying his libretto.

[Misha Glennie]

Larry Sasso, Handel composes Messiah in 1741, and we'll discuss the first performances in a minute. But can you tell us about the singers available to Handel, the singers that Handel liked and why that mattered to him so much?

[Larry Zazzo]

He was mainly a composer of operas. He wrote 42, depending on how you count, 42 operas, basically two a year between the 20s and 1741, which is when he wrote his last opera. And right when he was composing Messiah, he was at a bit of a crisis where he writing something for Dublin. He did not have access to his usual cohort of extremely versatile opera singers trained in Italy. Some of them were castrati. He did have one Italian singer, Avoglio, but he didn't really know who his other singers were.

[Misha Glennie]

Why didn't he have access to them at that time?

[Larry Zazzo]

Well, the opera company closed down and they were terribly expensive and he couldn't afford to bring them over even if he had them. Ruth.

[Ruth Smith]

And also there was a war on.

[Larry Zazzo]

And there was a war on.

[Ruth Smith]

So Italian singers weren't that easy to get. They weren't very keen to travel and so fees were even greater, so they

[Larry Zazzo]

put their fees up even more. There was some singer inflation, even more than there is nowadays, I suppose, or I wish there was more inflation. So he was in a situation where he has started to write some oratorios and it was remarked on a very famous quote which is worth just quoting for. Very quickly, Horace Walpole writes to Horace Mann. Hndel has set up an oratorio against the operas and succeeds. He's hired all the goddesses from farces and sing of roast beef. And that's such wonderful. So who were these singers of roast beef? Well, it's a different type of singer. These aren't singers of Italian opera, these are singers of ballad opera. So think Beggars Opera. Think of the precursors of musicals. A different type of musical style, shorter musical phrases, less virtuosity, more limited vocal range. And so I think Handel is writing for. He doesn't know whom, but perhaps a singer who's a slightly less trained, a singer of English, and a classic example of that, who he didn't know he was going to have was Susannah Kiber. Some of your listeners might be surprised. I always thought it was Susanna Cibber, but are we saying Susanna Kibber now? So Susanna born, Susanna Arne to Thomas Arne. So born into a theatrical family, an acting impresario. Family. She married the son of Colley Kibber, Theophilus Cibber. So she was the daughter in law of Kali. Also a famous actor impresario, Thomas Arne had this rival Drury Lane company. She turns up in Ireland. She's an actress, she's a tragedian. She had a terrible, terrible background, a really terrible husband. Theophilus was a gambler, he was a spendthrift, he was abusive. He basically pimped her out to an aristocrat called William Sloper. There was a terrible trial in which all of the dirty laundry was aired.

[Misha Glennie]

So there was a huge scandal around

[Larry Zazzo]

that, a huge scandal. And she was terribly. She was terribly embarrassed.

[Misha Glennie]

But a good singer, but.

[Larry Zazzo]

Well, Bernie said that she had a voice like a thread. So think of someone who could sing in a very declamatory style, very simply, but with incredible pathos and incredible emotion.

[Misha Glennie]

Can we confirm or otherwise that you sang the same part as Susanna Kibber?

[Larry Zazzo]

I did indeed, yes. And I also sang the same part as Gaetano Guadagni, who was the castrato who sang in 1750. So you have that virtuosity of the Italian castrato and this wonderful simplicity of Susanna Kiber. It is done by countertenors, but it's there, all of those. That music is equally done beautifully by mezzo sopranos.

[Misha Glennie]

I must say, Donald, before we get into the work itself, as far as I understand, before he wrote Messiah, he was laid low by some serious health problems, including a very serious stroke.

[Donald Burrows]

I don't think at this stage that was a really serious question. He seems to have recovered very quickly from the 1737 stroke or whatever it was. He goes abroad for a time, he comes back, he writes the funeral anthem for the Queen. In no time at all, he's back in business. When you get to his later years, he then starts to have health problems that interfere with his work more. And of course, his eyesight also goes a little, but. But I think really he's back springing to life in the Messiah period.

[Misha Glennie]

And before he wrote Messiah, what are the. What are the works which lead up to Messiah, as it were?

[Donald Burrows]

Earlier, in 1741, he'd done his last Italian opera in London. After that, there were no more Italian operas. So leading up to 1741, he had been doing opera and oratorio within the theater seasons. There comes a time, early in 1741, he didn't really get on with the management at the King's Theatre, which was the Grand Opera House. He'd gone to Covent Garden, the New Theatre, and for a number of years, John Rich thought, aha, we will do plays and Handel can do some oratorios and operas. After a few years, he found he couldn't really quite afford it. He didn't have the same resources as the King's Theatre. So what had happened was he said to Handel, you can have my secondary theatre at Lincoln's Inn Fields. It's cheaper. But I think he thought by the end of that, I'm not going to be going back to the King's Theatre. Castrati are so difficult to find these days. It was the perfect moment when he had this invitation to go to Dublin to get out.

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[Donald Burrows]

Splashdown confirmed.

[Ruth Smith]

Humans are back in the business of going to the moon.

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[Misha Glennie]

Just imagine what we as humans can do next.

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[Misha Glennie]

Well, Ruth, let me ask you about Dublin. First of all, was everyone surprised that Messiah was premiered there?

[Ruth Smith]

No, because Handel's music was already known and liked and that was a very good reason for going there. Handel had a very good friend in the form of the first violinist at the Lord Lieutenant's orchestra. And the fact that his music was known. There was one reason why he might feel confident that he could premiere an oratorio there there were two cathedrals with professional choirs. And as anybody who's sung in the choruses of Messiah knows, the choruses are not easy. So certainly having professional choirs would be useful. Dublin had built a new concert hall, neutral ground, neither a theatre where the sacred word might as turned out to be the case, be objected to. It was a good concert hall. It had a good capacity. There was nothing like that in London. And also Dublin, like London, in fact, had a very strong ethos of philanthropy which was very much needed because it had been a terrible one of the many Irish famines in Dublin. And it was said that the Lord Lieutenant felt that it was time that there should be some uplifting public entertainment. Well, what better than Messiah? And a very good opportunity to raise money for charitable causes, which it successfully did. And I think if Handel had been really canny, he would have realized this was the way forward for Messiah. Not to do it for profit, though Jennens himself had said that he hoped that Handel would perform it as a one off for his own benefit, for his own profit. But this performance, Dublin for charity, absolutely won everybody over as well, of course, as the quality of the music and the pathos of Mrs. Kibbers singing.

[Larry Zazzo]

Absolutely.

[Ruth Smith]

The dress rehearsal was so crowded that the newspaper advertisements for the actual premiere asked the ladies to come without hoops in their dresses and the gentlemen without swords so that there would be more space for the charitably inclined. Well, there were rave reviews, one of which said words are wanting to express the exquisite delight it afforded to the admiring, crowded audience. The sublime, the grand and the tender, adapted to the most elevated and moving words, conspired to transport and charm the ravished heart and ear.

[Misha Glennie]

Quite a review, Larry. Have you had reviews like that? I should point out that you've performed in Messiah once. I was subtle.

[Larry Zazzo]

My wife laughed. But I have performed it many times. It's such a unique piece. And talking about its place in history and its place in Handel's career, I think going back to what Donald was saying and where Handel was when he was composing the Messiah, if Handel had his druthers, I think he was a man of the stage. He loved operas. And if he could have, if it could have found a way for it to be profitable, he would have continued happily, I think, writing operas.

[Misha Glennie]

So he went to oratorio, not because he was having some sort of spiritual enlightenment moment.

[Larry Zazzo]

Yeah, he was a spiritual man. He was a devout. He went to St. George's Hanover every week, from what I understand, however, it was simply a financial issue for him, and the financial and the artistic are always very close for Handel. And it simply was the case. And if anyone's interested, Ellen Harris has done some wonderful work with the bank of England. And she discovered that by 1739, Handel had withdrawn his last £50 from his cash account and put no more money in his bank account until 1743.

[Misha Glennie]

I wondered about this because I noticed that he managed to buy a house in Brook street in mayfair in the 1720s.

[Ruth Smith]

So, with respect, he didn't buy the house in Mayfair, he rented it.

[Misha Glennie]

He never bought it.

[Ruth Smith]

And as for him being broke, this is a myth about why he had to go to Dublin with creditors snapping at his heels. And, yes, putting on a whole season of performances, which is the way one did it. Then walk up tickets hadn't really been invented yet, was very expensive. So between 12 and £16,000, that's a lot. However, Handel had an annuity from the crown of £600 a year, which we should multiply by 200. So he's got £120,000 a year coming in. However, that is not nearly enough to have in reserve for a whole opera season. So, yes, he couldn't afford to hire

[Larry Zazzo]

subsidizing his own opera seasons. However, by the time he retired, and largely only through oratorio, he was a multimillionaire. So his oratorio seasons were very, very profitable. But it really was an accident, I think.

[Misha Glennie]

Okay, we're trying to get a sense of why it grips the audience as much as it does. Why is Messiah different from so many other oratorios?

[Ruth Smith]

It's unlike anything.

[Misha Glennie]

Well, that's a. Why is it unlike anything?

[Donald Burrows]

I think one of the things is that whereas with the operas and most oratorios, you've got settings of metrical verse, rhymed verse and such like, what's happening with this is you have the different rhythms from the prayer book and from the Psalms, which means that you've got a particular flow to the English language, which is not like other things which have been written by poets, shall we say? So there is something that people recognize about the working of the English language, about religious texts. And Handel has this knack of getting just the right way of setting it to music, you know, to get the music to fit the mood and the sense of the words.

[Ruth Smith]

Ruth, picking up on what Donald has said, over 60% of the verses that Jennings uses from the Bible are from the Old Testament, much richer in imagery than the New Testament. And Handel was a genius at evoking emotion through his setting of imagery. And so much of the imagery in Messiah is active. A potter's vessel being smashed, a refiner's fire. This isn't pictorial, just it's energetic imagery. And often Handel also makes us think by giving musical variety to his depiction of a single image. So at the beginning we have the contrast of darkness and light. Those that walked in darkness have seen a great light. But we get it twice over in the words. And Handel varies it. One is melodic, the other is harmonic.

[Misha Glennie]

I'm interested that you and Donald both talk about the text and imagery. Larry, what about the music?

[Larry Zazzo]

Well, the music, and I've thought about this a lot. Why is the Messiah so different? And as a performer, I could say there's no other piece of Handel, or any other piece for that matter, in which I feel like I have such a connection with the audience. And unlike an opera where a character is feeling an emotion and the audience is passively kind of observing that, maybe sympathetically feeling what I'm feeling in this piece. And if I just go through my own, my own bit, I'm questioning the audience. But who may abide? If God be for us, who shall be against us? O death, where is thy sting? A statement I know that my redeemer liveth. Ask in the audience to do something. Arise, get thee up into the high mountains. Lift up thy voice. The trumpet shall sound. Predicting the trumpet shall sound. Behold, a virgin shall conceive. So it's very active engagement with the audience that almost demands a response from them.

[Misha Glennie]

But I'm interested. You're also talking about the text. I'm really interested in why the music speaks to us as well. Is it because of the fusion between the text and the music? I mean, is this one of his best works musically, or is it.

[Ruth Smith]

Maybe it's one of his richest musically. Don would be able to correct me on this. But unlike the operas and unlike a lot of the other oratorios, there's very little recitative, plain, simple plot type text,

[Misha Glennie]

speaking of the text.

[Ruth Smith]

So it's very rich in arias and even richer in choruses. And also it's quite concise, I think, in the individual numbers. So we're getting huge variety all the time. And one thing that Jennings understood, sorry, this is back to the words, but it's back to the structure that Handel is actually dealing with. Jennings understood that one of Handel's main compositional methods was progression, by contrast. And that is all the way through Messiah. It may be a micro contrast, as in a single number, as in, for example, he was despised, where the Outer sections, as is normal in a Brock aria, are based on the same music. And the intersection is contrasting and is a big contrast. So deep pathos followed by outrage and anger at what has happened to Christ. Or it could be a really major transition contrast, as in, for example, the end of part two, the beginning of part three. We go from the grandeur of Christ's dominance and triumph over the whole created universe in the Hallelujah chorus. Drums, trumpets and so on, the whole chorus. And then we come down to. I know that my Redeemer lives. The voice of the single individual. And not only the single individual, but the worms in the body of the individual. So Jennings absolutely understood this gift of Handel's for making contrasts. And yes, it is the words as well as the music.

[Larry Zazzo]

One almost has a sense the whole universe is there in this piece. Somehow, without being too hyperbolic, it has everything. It has the beginning, the end, the suffering individual, the community. It's uplifting. You go through a whole range of emotions, as I certainly do as a performer and as a listener. There is something about the choruses which are so. Every single line in the choruses are very, very singable, almost in a soloistic sense. And there's something about it which makes people want to get up, get up on their feet. There's something about it which leads to these huge scratch Messiahs, which is the Royal Albert hall being filled with people with their dog eared scores singing along to the choruses. I think the choruses are so incredibly strong.

[Ruth Smith]

It's a very communal work and it's a very generous work. I'm sorry, this is again the text, but the music bears it out.

[Larry Zazzo]

Larry, my favorite bit, other than. And really not the bits I sing. But it's. It is all we like sheep have gone astray. And it's an example to me of how Handel is thinking dramatically, but in a different way. Not in the sense of an opera or in the sense of a story. So all we like sheep have gone astray. And there's these lines that kind of go nowhere, we have to. And I just smile when I hear it. And you hear this frail humanity. But then right when you least expect it, boom. F minor. And all of a sudden it crashes in. In the middle of. These people.

[Misha Glennie]

Stray sheep.

[Larry Zazzo]

These stray sheep. And it's so human and so sublime at the same time. And this is what I think is the most wonderful thing about Messiah and Handel in general. The very human and the very sublime right next to each other.

[Misha Glennie]

Ruth, you wanted to come in there, but You've already mentioned Jen's spiritual dilemma and his depression. What are the sort of political and religious sensibilities in London around the time of the Messiah?

[Ruth Smith]

I think Messiah can be understood, certainly from Jenin's point of view, as a response to, as the poet John Donne put it, the new philosophy puts all in doubt. Religious certainties, religious beliefs had been torpedoed from at least three directions. One is that God had been depersonalized. Isaac Newton had shown that the universe was not presided over by a God who notices everything we do, but a clockmaker operating by the laws of mathematics, who had wound it up remote, transcendental. So how could such a big God be interested in me or you individuals or in how we lead our lives and therefore how we get saved after death? Then there was, I suppose one could call it a new respect for humanitarian morality, measured against which, how did we think of the God of the Old Testament, who after all, was also the God of the New Testament Testament, this partial, unjust God who encouraged a rabble tribe coming out of Egypt, probably with pagan views in their spiritual makeup, wandering around in the desert. This was not a good father figure. And then there was actual biblical scholarship which was showing that the Bible was not, after all, directly dictated by God to one person to guide down. It was the work of many different hands. It had inconsistencies. If it was actually human work, why believe it? You know, what status did it have? So it was very easy to find grounds for skepticism. Religion was the main subject of publishing. Most people went to church. The sermon was the main public address system. So balancing these views was quite difficult for people. And there was great concern. I mean, if you look at what's actually published at the time, religious doubt is as worrying to the writers as, say, climate change or terrorism now. And got at least as many column inches.

[Misha Glennie]

Well, Larry, that brings me on to something else, which is that the Messiah was almost seen as too sacred by some and not sacred enough by others. How did Handel manage that balancing act?

[Larry Zazzo]

Absolutely. I think it's always been viewed that way and still is to some extent, really interesting. One of the original reviews, someone kind of wrote into the newspaper and said, what a profanation of God's name and word is this? David said, how can we sing the Lord's song in a strange land? But sure, he would have thought it much stranger to have heard it sung in a playhouse. So the context where it was performed really incensed people of Christian faith. I'm going to fast forward and going to talk a Little bit maybe about the soulful Celebration, the Quincy Jones, Mervyn Warren version.

[Misha Glennie]

You better contextualize.

[Larry Zazzo]

I will contextualize it in that Mervyn Warren had said that they were going to do a version of the trumpet shell sound with Dizzy Gillespie and Wynton Marsalis. One of the great what ifs of history would have been if that happened. And Wynton Marsalis said, I don't want to do this because I don't want to desecrate the Messiah. So it was very interesting. Even from someone from a jazz tradition. The Messiah is seen in so many ways as this great sacred cow. It is unique in Handel's oeuvre in the sense that it is all sacred words. Right. It is not just an opera manque. It's not just a Bible story. But Ruth, you have something.

[Misha Glennie]

Ruth's dying to come in.

[Ruth Smith]

Well, no, actually, just to modify that a bit. Yes, of course, Messiah is unique in all sorts of ways, but it did have a predecessor in Handel's output. When Jennings is writing about sending Handel the libretto of Messiah and Handel decides he won't do it for the time being because he wants something of a gayer turn, Jennings describes it as another scripture collection. And one reason that Handel didn't pick it up maybe was that their previous scripture collection had actually bombed. And that was Israel in Egypt, which Handel had done two years previously and had only managed three performances. That's all biblical text. But Messiah includes New Testament text. And I think that made a great difference. In 18th century England, New Testament text was more sacred than Old Testament text. And I think that's the wonderful quotation that Larry just read us about, you know, desecrating God's word. Jennings was very careful to minimize actual words of Christ and actual naming of Christ. But it is in there, and of course people would have recognized it.

[Misha Glennie]

So, Donald, is there a particular event where the church appears to approve of Messiah, having been a little skeptical before about it appearing in theaters?

[Donald Burrows]

I think that there are various aspects to this. One is, of course, the big criticism of Messiah, which is always quoted, was one newspaper article. We don't know how representative that was.

[Larry Zazzo]

Could have just been one reader.

[Donald Burrows]

It could just have been. I mean, it's a very eloquent, you know, statement of the theatre is not the right place to do this. And actually Handler made it worse. Or someone at the top of the score. He writes Messiah an oratorio, unlike some other ones in the predecessors. You often have an oratorio or sacred drama. He doesn't do that. It's just Messiah, an oratorio. Leaving certain things a little bit vague. And what's worse is that in the newspaper they thought, well, or whoever put the advert in the newspaper, the very first London performances, they thought, Messiah. That's a bit dodgy. So there will be performed a new sacred oratorio. Well, that was worse. Right. And that's what got the attacks on it, really. But we don't know really how representative the attacks were. First of all, because Handel then did two more performances. He didn't cancel Messiah after the first one. He finished the season giving two more. That's sort of one aspect to that. And then the other was that there was this question about the bishops. There's a little hint in there about it was not approved by the bishops or whatever it may be that it had gone to the inspector of stage plays, the censor. Effectively the censor. And something had happened there. But when we get to later on and it's performed at the founding hospital, someone writes in his diary, oh, and there were bishops there. So the hearing of oratorio may sometime be thought of as orthodox. So the whole question of the Church's attitude. This seems to be a few clergy, one sector of the London audience. But it didn't stop Handel doing it. He treated it in his programs just like any other work. He didn't actually do the same work every year. But if you look at what happens, he didn't stay away from it. As if it was something that was too much trouble.

[Misha Glennie]

Ruth, you mentioned that initially when Jen and sent his libretto that Handel wanted to do something gayer, I think was. Was how he described it. Was he then convinced by the libretto when he started studying it? Did he realize that this was the basis of something great?

[Ruth Smith]

I think the proof of the pudding, you know, since it became his most famous work. Yes. I mean, do we think he did it justice? Yes, we do. Not everybody did. In fact, Jennings was a bit cross about some of it. We don't know precisely what he did say that he objected to the overture. We don't know why. And in fact, the overture is a stroke of genius harmonically, in the whole scheme, harmonic scheme. But, you know, Handel came back to it again and again. And I don't think that was just a financial thing.

[Misha Glennie]

And it was an artistic issue that he came back at it again and again. Presentation, presumably

[Ruth Smith]

artistic. Artistic. Artistic and pragmatic nearly always go together. I mean, you could say that with works that actually failed when he first did them. And he came back to, as is said, about one of his late operas that he kept working at, having to put on one side, coming back to why in the end, especially as it's not very popular now, did he come back to it? We might work out that he really had a fondness for some of it. But, I mean, Don can tell us about how many different versions, handled it, as he must have been interested in this work to keep redoing it in different forms.

[Misha Glennie]

We've spoken about the singers, but what about the orchestra? What about the orchestration of this piece, which he kept revising, I think as

[Donald Burrows]

a little prelude to that. I mean, I think that the situation was. Once Messiah was established, it got a regular slot in Handel's program. He performed oratorios during the Lenten period, and Messiah was always the last one before Easter. It had a particular place in the

[Ruth Smith]

program, which was what Jennings intended. If I must interrupt. I mean, Jennings specifically said this was for Handel to perform in Passiontide, and he always did.

[Misha Glennie]

Larry Nowadays we associate Handel's Messiah more with Christmas. In fact, I think advise with Maria Carey for being the most played piece over the Christmas period. Where. What's the connection with Christmas?

[Larry Zazzo]

I. I'm trying to remember. Donald can you tell us when it started to become associated with Christmas?

[Donald Burrows]

Dublin.

[Misha Glennie]

Oh, Dublin.

[Donald Burrows]

Dublin.

[Misha Glennie]

I. E. From the beginning, not.

[Donald Burrows]

Not quite after hand. Handel had gone back to London. The. The person we referred to earlier, Matthew Dubourg, the violinist, he lived sort of half the year in London and half the year in Dublin, and he was taking over charity performances. There were three charities in Dublin. And in fact, what happened was that for the relief of debtors, that charity, they regularly performed Messiah in December. That is how it became associated first with that season. But obviously there were things in it that elsewhere people also. Yeah, good idea. You know, it was taken up elsewhere.

[Larry Zazzo]

And I think certainly the first part of Messiah is kind of the Christmassy part, which is why it's become, you know, it's. It's the shepherds. There's very comforting pastoral music, and that's the kind of favorite first part. So for many people, it's become a Christmas piece and some. A kind of a. A bit of pablum that you can kind of just enjoy in Christmas. But in fact, as we know, parts two and three, there's an apocalyptic bit at the end, and there's a message in the Messiah which is potentially very unsettling and very provocative. It is the crooked being made straight. You're comforting people who are in pain, your communities. And this can become a Message to certain communities of liberation and of comfort and comforting my people. And you go out and do the comforting, not feel comfortable, right? Comfort my people, Isaiah, you comfort my people. Don't feel comfortable. So it's not a comfortable peace. It is a call to bring comfort to others.

[Ruth Smith]

Ruth, this is such a generous work and it doesn't exclude people. By being very focused on doctrine. You know, the difficult issue of the Trinity isn't there. Hell isn't there. The threatening parts of Christianity aren't there.

[Larry Zazzo]

There's no villain, is there really?

[Ruth Smith]

There's no villain. There's no Satan by comparison.

[Misha Glennie]

I was meant to say, does the devil pop up? He doesn't really, does he?

[Ruth Smith]

No. He popped up in Handel's first oratorio about salvation by Christ, which was La Reserazione in Italy. And this is a point perhaps to mention that whereas most people would have found Messiah unique and unprecedented, it wouldn't have been for Jennings, because he knew that Handel had composed an oratorio about salvation through Christ for the Catholic community of Italy, that he had composed a passion oratorio for his own home Lutheran community in Germany. And now Jennings would have thought, surely it's time that the greatest composer on earth composed an oratorio about salvation for us all, for the Anglican community of England.

[Misha Glennie]

And Ruth, to finish up, can you tell me, do you think it's ultimately redemptive? A and B, what is its lasting appeal? Because it's a remarkable piece of work.

[Ruth Smith]

I think if you're Christian, it's redemptive. But it's interesting that people who aren't Christian find it uplifting, warming, encouraging, joyful,

[Misha Glennie]

which maybe answers the second part of my question.

[Ruth Smith]

Well, but why? I mean, the interesting part of that question. Yes. I mean, it continues to be welcomed by people all over the world, people in countries which are not Christian at all, far flung. Jennings would be so pleased that their word has gone forth unto the ends of the world. The propagation of the Gospel is one of the evidences of Christianity, which Jennings is careful to include. And look, it's happened with Messiah. It all fits so neatly. The question, I suppose, can be put in terms of how was Jennings composing his libretto to match Handel's strengths as a composer? To make Handel right at the top of his game? And, you know, we could talk for an hour at least just about that. But I think one way in which it succeeds is that it's not a narrative, it's not a story. It's not the life of Christ. It's a statement of faith. And it's very elusive because it uses the Old Testament a lot rather than the Gospel narrative. So the suffering servant prophet in the Old Testament is used for the elusive account of Christ's career. But this leaves it so open for Handel to write emotive music for all the strong emotional directives in the work. You know, rejoice. He was despised. These are as much emotional statements or directives as they are statements of faith, Larry.

[Larry Zazzo]

And I think, finally, I just wanted to say, right as we're recording this, these messages of your warfare is accomplished. Why do the nations so furiously rage together? There's always something in the Messiah which you can connect to contemporary events.

[Misha Glennie]

My thanks to Ruth Smith, Donald Burroughs and Larry Zazzo. Next week, mathematics and the impossible perspectives of M.C. escher. Thank you for listening.

[Ruth Smith]

And the In Our Time podcast gets some extra time now with a few minutes of bonus material from Misha and his guests.

[Misha Glennie]

Now, we're talking on our. We're talking on our podcast bit now where we can all start complaining about the message bits we missed out. Donald.

[Donald Burrows]

Well, no, just to pick that up. I mean, there is a tease about this. There's no certainty that anything in Missile was written for Mrs. Sibber.

[Larry Zazzo]

Absolutely.

[Donald Burrows]

If you go back to the time it's written, we don't know what Handel was thinking about his future, but I

[Larry Zazzo]

think we know he was writing for a less skilled singer. He. No, because I didn't know what he was going to get.

[Donald Burrows]

I don't think so. I don't. It sort of doesn't make sense. Sense, because here's him probably saying, not opera, perhaps I'm going somewhere else. But he writes Messiah first, which is for four voices. It looks as if he's not thinking of any particular singer. And what's really odd about it is it's a very mobile work because it's just strings, trumpets and drums. The normal cues for oboes to take part. The larger thing you don't need a separate stave for Oboe's the normal thing that he does in operas and oratorios is in some places he writes senza oboe and then tutti forte. There's none of that in Messiah. He doesn't register anything apart from the strings. And this looks like this is a, as it were, mobile work that you can take anywhere. But then the whole argument is then screwed up because after it, he writes Samson. Now, Samson is a London work that needs London type soloists and heaven help us, it's got trombones in the orchestra. You know, you won't find them In Dublin. And he wrote that second, you know, so what on earth was he thinking during that summer period when he was writing these works? Is he thinking Dublin, London? Well, I've got something for both, you know, because in the seasons after this, when he's regularly in London, we have a pattern which is what we get in 41, is that he uses the summer autumn to write two new works for the next season. That's what he's done. They're just very different from each other. I mean, what obviously made sense in the 1740s. You talk about August, September. You're living in Brook street. The streets are quiet because everyone's off at their country houses. You know, you can have a quiet time. You can concentrate on writing the music. And that pattern is there with 1741. But it doesn't quite make sense because half of it looks like this is something I might take had he had the. The invitation to Dublin at that stage. This is where I think Matthew du Borg, the violinist.

[Misha Glennie]

The violinist in Dublin, who lives half

[Donald Burrows]

the time in London and half the time in Dublin. He has to go to Dublin because he's Master of the State music. So he has to write the Ode for the King's Birthday that's done at Dublin Castle. So he's there basically during late autumn, winter. But he's in London for other times of the year. And it's almost certain, it seems to me, that he must have had these conversations with Handel about Dublin. And it's a different setup because what does Handel say about the venue? The music sounds great in this charming room. It isn't a theatre, you know, It's a completely different sort of ambience of a concert hall. That's what he finds when he gets there. How much did he know about it in the first place? You know, what. What was he thinking when he was writing Messiah? It's very difficult.

[Ruth Smith]

I mean, it may be worth saying that we are stymied in some of our conjectures about Handel and that we have hardly any letters from him compared with, say, Mozart. And I think we have fewer than 50 letters.

[Misha Glennie]

Do we know why that is? Is that because he just didn't write that?

[Ruth Smith]

Perhaps they were better things.

[Donald Burrows]

Whatever.

[Ruth Smith]

Better things to do.

[Donald Burrows]

But as it happens, what we have is two excellent letters to Jones.

[Ruth Smith]

Yes, once he's there. But we don't decide to go to Dublin on the X of X. Because I've got these two works and. Yes, and I mean, it's worth saying that following on from what Don's saying about him having two completely different works on. On the stocks. And then he takes Messiah to Dublin. We should remember that he, as we've already said, he does two complete concert seasons, two times six works before he does Messiah. And Messiah could have been a speculative thing. You know, I know I've tried and tested these other works. Let's see how they go down in the concert series. If they go really well, I'll do Messiah as a standalone thing, which is what happens. But, you know, had there been trouble about getting sufficient choir and so on, he would already have done these other works and could then go home much richer than when he came to Ireland.

[Larry Zazzo]

And I think it's worth saying, going back to this question, why is Messiah so popular? There's a practical reason. Handel had at least 10 versions of Messiah.

[Misha Glennie]

I was going to say, when did he start? When did that happen? Almost immediately. He was.

[Larry Zazzo]

Well, I suppose year on year. Right.

[Donald Burrows]

Well, no, I mean, he has to first of all adapt to this business of having cathedral choir singers, different spaces and different. So that therefore thou shalt break them turns into a vegetative. Because he doesn't have a good enough singer to. To do that. So some of them are practical, some of them are stimulated by a new singer. You can't go too far with this because the. The overall shape of the work doesn't change. You know, what he's doing is slotting in different things in different places. There's one area which does go different. How beautiful are the feet. Which is very complicated because as done by Jennens in the libretto, it's how beautiful are the feet of them. Referring back to the chorus, because it's referring to the company of the preachers going out. How beautiful are the feet of them. And I think in Dublin someone said to him, you know, that bit of Isaiah you could use how beautiful are the feet of him to refer to Messiah. And so what he does in Dublin is to set a subtly different text. How beautiful are the feet of him. And I think that's one of the things that Jennings doesn't like. He said, that's not what I meant,

[Larry Zazzo]

you know, I mean, Handel, I think, was a very practical composer. He was always responding to the singers he had, to the forces he had. I've done Messiah at least over 100 performances, and I don't think I've ever done it in exactly the same version. Every conductor, especially in part three, how long or not to make it. You can make it shorter, you can make it longer, depending on the singers you have. And what you like about certain movements, there's certain movements that were written for soprano but also were performed for alto. I've done a two alto version of He Shall Feed His Flock, which is very, very beautiful, but very rare. And that adaptability also in terms of forces. And we didn't really talk about the 19th century where you had these mega messiahs, messiahs on steroids with, you know, hundreds in the choir. And they got bigger and bigger and bigger. And then with the historical performance movement, we've done it with very small forces. I've done it both ways. And it's exciting in both ways. It's sublime in both cases.

[Misha Glennie]

You also mentioned Wynter Marsalis saying that he didn't want to desecrate the work. And you briefly referred to the Quincy Jones Soulful Celebration. I listened to that in preparation for the program. I have to say it's a spectacular piece of work because there seems to be a communality between what Handel was trying to do and the tradition of gospel in particular, but also preaching.

[Larry Zazzo]

I think let's go back to comfort, right? This is a message of comfort to a community, a formerly enslaved community. We're talking about the Israelites here. And this is a very powerful message to communities of color, especially formerly enslaved communities. And interesting thing Mervyn Warren said, who was one of the main arrangements. He said, we hear Messiah and it's lofty and regal and elegant. But Handel was scorned in his day. That's really interesting. And we think of Handel as being this absolute rock star. But he did have some pretty rocky stages in his career. And right when he was com composing, Messiah was potentially one of his very low points. And that's.

[Ruth Smith]

And certainly in the mythology about Handel, it becomes absolutely, as you say, rock bottom for Handel. And, you know, he's. He's ill. Wrong. He's broke. And, you know, he goes without food for the three weeks that he's composing it. You know, that's the mood.

[Misha Glennie]

And it's very attractive because I read the Stefan Zweig.

[Ruth Smith]

There you go. That's exactly the source. Yes.

[Misha Glennie]

And that was. He was. He was ill, he was broke, the people were chasing him at the door for his debts.

[Larry Zazzo]

But that narrative is very powerful for people, isn't it?

[Misha Glennie]

Yeah, it is.

[Donald Burrows]

But also, I think that if people don't know the work, you get this myth that it might end with the Hallelujah chorus. It's true. It doesn't, you know, and in many ways, in terms of composition, the best arias are in Part three.

[Larry Zazzo]

Well, certainly, I Know that you're missing out on something.

[Donald Burrows]

And also if God be for us, which often is, if you look at the actual musical composition, what he's writing, it's an extremely good piece he actually takes, as it were. Well, actually both of those are interesting because whereas the operatic dark Harpo aria A B, you know, as he's working from biblical texts, the two big arias, there are three verse texts, they're in three sections and everyone moves on from the previous verse. You know, that's something, I think that doesn't happen in any of the other areas. There's something, something different.

[Misha Glennie]

But on the hallelujah chorus, presumably the reason why that has become so popular is, is it's a big old sing along and you know, people do feel uplifted by that communal experience.

[Donald Burrows]

Yeah.

[Ruth Smith]

Perhaps it's worth going in here that the flash mob hallelujah choruses. Do we know what flash mob choruses are?

[Misha Glennie]

Flash mobs are choruses that appear apparently spontaneously.

[Ruth Smith]

Exactly. In shopping malls. Yes, yes.

[Misha Glennie]

But there are hundreds of iPhones filming the whole thing.

[Ruth Smith]

So if you look on YouTube at flash mob hallelujah choruses and count up the number of views that the main ones have had, it comes to over 70 million, which is more than the population of Britain.

[Misha Glennie]

Time for a cup of tea.

[Ruth Smith]

In Our Time with Misha Glennie is produced by Simon Tillotson and it's a BBC Studios production. Some events have far reaching consequences. The white noise, everything goes black and. And apparently I was screaming. That's the moment that my life changed forever. I'm Dr. Sian Williams and I'm meeting the people whose lives have been reshaped in unexpected ways. That broke my heart. I just thought that is so cruel. Personal stories of loss, discovery and starting over. We do talk about it time to time and about how grateful we are to be in this country, to be able to be free to life changing. From BBC Radio 4, listen now on BBC Sounds.