← In Search Of Excellence
In Search Of Excellence
Anna Leigh Waters: From the Youngest Prodigy to Pickleball’s #1 Player | E144
01:03:17
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- [00:00]
A
Most pro athletes, I think you can't play until you're 18 years old. But you're 12 years old and you become a professional athlete. As you think about a professional sport, you might be the youngest professional athlete in any sport ever.
- [00:14]
B
What's crazy is when we got silver in that tournament, I was actually 11, and I was 12 when we beat the number one team in the world. So a lot of people say I turned pro at 12, but if you count that one tournament, I was 11, which makes the stats even better for me.
- [00:27]
A
Okay.
- [00:28]
B
So I don't know, there might be like a skateboarder or something who was 11 and played a pro tournament, really figured it out. So it would be interesting to know if I was the youngest ever.
- [00:42]
A
Welcome to In Search of Excellence, where we meet entrepreneurs, CEOs, entertainers, athletes, motivational speakers, and trailblazers of excellence with incredible stories from all walks of life. My name is Randall Kaplan. I'm a serial entrepreneur, venture capitalist, and the host of In Search of Excellence, which I started to motivate and inspire us to achieve excellence in all areas of our lives. My guest today is Annalee Waters. Annalee is the number one ranked female pickleball player in the world, and at only 17 years old, she is the best female player in the history of pickleball. At the age of 12 years old, she became the youngest professional pickleball player in the world. She won her first Triple crown when she was 14 years old, and at 15 years old, she became the number one ranked player in singles, doubles and mixed doubles. She's won 44 singles titles, 40 women's doubles titles, and 44 mixed doubles titles and is the all time leader on the women's side in PPA Tour titles. Her 30 Triple Crowns are more than any other player in the sport, either male or female. She has won at least one gold medal in 41 of 45 PPAA Tour events played and her 128 total gold medals is 82 more than her nearest competitor on the women's side. Annalee, thanks for being here. Welcome to In Search of Excellence.
- [02:01]
B
Thank you for having me.
- [02:02]
A
You were born in Allentown, Pennsylvania and grew up an hour outside of Raleigh. Yes. Your mom's grandfather was in the hog business and your dad was a fur manager of that hog business. How did that influence your life growing up?
- [02:17]
B
It's kind of crazy because the first eight years of my life, the closest target was an hour from where I lived. So it was honestly just a great place for me to grow up because it was Just all the neighborhood kids. And every day after school, we'd like, get together and play, like, I don't know, like, hide and go seek or nerf guns around, like the entire neighborhood. So that was really cool because where I live in Florida now, that, like, really wouldn't be possible and interesting enough. When I was about 8 years old and I was playing tennis, soccer, I hadn't found pickleball yet, but my parents were like, maybe she's got some athletic ability. That's when they decided to move to Florida for me to pursue athletics. But before then, my coaches used to go up to my parents and they'd be like, is this your daughter? She's so unathletic. When I was like 5 and 6, I was, like, extremely unathletic.
- [03:02]
A
Well, that's interesting because you were born with the athletic gene. Your mom played tennis in college, Your dad played golf in college. Your grandfather was a draft pick for the Chicago Cubs. Yes, he was. So at one point you said you weren't very good. At one point, did you realize I actually had some real talent?
- [03:22]
B
I don't know. I just remember when I was like 5 years old and I used to play soccer. I just, like, run around the ball and, like, I'd sit and, like, pick flowers on the field. And I used to, like, cry to go to soccer practice. Like, I really didn't like playing sports. I was into, like, dance and, like, going to school and friends. And then all of a sudden, one year, my mom kept making me go to practice. And then one year I was just like, wait, I actually really love this. And I kind of became addicted with sports and everything athletic. So I think it's not really. I was necessarily bad at it. I just really wasn't interest. So that made me bad at sports. But then all of a sudden, I got really interested in it. And I think that point kind of happened when I decided to play tennis, because my mom, my whole childhood was like, I don't want you to play tennis. Because she played tennis, and she didn't want to force me into something and force me into tennis. But when I said I wanted to play, she said, okay. And we'd drive like an hour to Raleigh where I used to play tennis, and we'd go for like an hour lesson sometimes, maybe stay the night and do another lesson the next day. So that's when I started kind of really enjoying sports. And then I started liking soccer as well. So it kind just transformed that way.
- [04:25]
A
You started playing soccer when you were five years old?
- [04:27]
B
Yes.
- [04:28]
A
And at some point, when did you really. And then you played competitive soccer?
- [04:31]
B
I was 7 or 8 when I decided to play tennis. But, yeah, I played soccer at 5. And then I didn't start playing competitive soccer until we moved to Florida. So it was just like rec soccer.
- [04:40]
A
But at what point did you say to yourself, okay, I'm pretty good. Were you scoring five goals a game and everyone else was scoring zero?
- [04:47]
B
It really wasn't. Like, when I was in North Carolina, I really didn't think I was good at any sport, but my parents, I think, thought I was good. So when I moved to Florida, I think that's when I kind of started realizing I was good. But I never. Like, even now I think I'm good at pickleball, but I really don't think I'm good at. I don't know. It's something weird in my head that I think is why I'm actually good and drive myself to play, because I never think I'm good enough. So I'm always, like, really working at things. But I always. When I was younger and in Florida, I always thought I was going to be a professional athlete, but I didn't necessarily think I was good at the sport. It's like a weird mental thing. But I was like, I'm going to be a professional athlete. I'm going to be like Serena Williams one day. But I, like, didn't necessarily think I was really good at that time.
- [05:29]
A
You just said something that I found absolutely crazy. You said you think you're good at pickleball.
- [05:33]
B
Yeah, I think I'm good, but I don't know.
- [05:36]
A
You don't think you're great?
- [05:37]
B
I don't know that I don't get the hype. I don't know.
- [05:39]
A
You don't think you're great?
- [05:41]
B
I do. I mean, looking at. I try not to look at stats, but, like, when people tell me my stats, I'm like, wow, that's pretty cool. But then I'm like, don't think about that, Analy. Because I think the main thing is when athletes start to get complacent and think they're really good at something is when they get past or when they stop having the motivation to get better. So I think my parents have done a really good job, too, of, like, keeping myself humble and, like, being like, keep your head on track. Like, anytime I play an opponent, even if it's first round, I'm, like, nervous, and I'm like, all right. I never think, like, oh, I got this match, you know? Whereas Some athletes feel that way about themselves. They think they're, like, the best thing, you know, that walks the earth. But that's not me.
- [06:15]
A
So you're good at tennis. You're 8 years old, and your family says, all right, we're going to move to Delray beach from North Carolina because you're a very good athlete. A lot of pressure on you at that age to say, oh, gosh, I better make something. Yes.
- [06:29]
B
But also, funny fact, we used to vacation at the Boca Raton resort. I don't know if you've ever been there. I have. And they loved it so much. They were like, we just want to be on vacation all the time. Which is what they felt Florida was. So I think it was kind of a mixture of both things. But my parents actually sold their house in North Carolina in a week, and they sold all their furniture in the house, which is, like, unheard of. And, like, even photos that were in the house, like, the people who bought the house kept everything. So it was, like, insane. They were like, all right, we're moving. And then the next week, we were in Florida. It was crazy. Like, that doesn't usually happen.
- [07:01]
A
But were you. Did they tell you why you? Why?
- [07:03]
B
Because, I mean, eight years old, we think you have potential. Like, in sports, we think it's better for the family. Like, we want to move to Florida. You'll have more potential to, like, be around better athletes. Because, like I said, I had to drive an hour to go get a tennis lesson. They wanted that to be easier for me and me to have more access. They wanted to give me a chance, kind of. They weren't banking on the fact that I was going to be good, but they wanted to give me the chance to kind of see if I would be good or not.
- [07:31]
A
At this point in your life at 8 years old, what were you like as a kid?
- [07:36]
B
I was very hyper energetic. Like, I always wanted to be doing something. Like I said, I love playing with, like, neighborhood kids. I wasn't really the type of girl to just, like, sit in her bedroom and, like, play with things. I did do that, but I was always, like, playing with the boys. Like, at recess, I go play soccer with the boys. Like, I was kind of a Tom boy, like, growing up. I'm a little more girly now than I was when I was younger, but I always loved playing sports, and I always loved doing aggressive things. Like, WWE was one of my favorite things when I was 8 years old. And I'd, like, wrestle my dad on the bed and, like, put him in these headlocks. And we'd, like, fight and, like, do all. So I was like, oh. And my cousin was my best friend. His name's Wright. And we used to just always, like, play and, like, fight and, like, do, like, sports outside. Like, we would just always, like, that was my thing.
- [08:22]
A
Would your dad let you run? Would your dad let you win these wrestling matches?
- [08:26]
B
Yeah, I think he just wanted him to stop because I was actually doing the moves on him where, like, in wwe, they're not actually, like, hurting the person, but I put him in the headlock and he'd tap out.
- [08:35]
A
Who was your favorite male and female wrestler?
- [08:39]
B
I really liked Roman Reigns. I think he was my favorite WWE wrestler on the male side. And then I like the twins. I can't think of their last name, but there are these two twins, two twin girls. And one of them actually dated John Cena when the WWE thing was going on. So I like John Cena as well, but I think that's why I like the twins. But then I liked Roman Reigns on the men's side.
- [08:59]
A
Have you seen the Vince McMahon special or doctor?
- [09:01]
B
I haven't, but my trainer knows I love WWE or I used to love WWE. So he told me that should be my next watch.
- [09:07]
A
It's very, very good.
- [09:08]
B
Yeah, I need to watch it.
- [09:09]
A
If you're a fan, you have to watch it.
- [09:10]
B
Yeah.
- [09:11]
A
Let's move to September 2017. Hurricane Irma, which did $77.2 billion of property damage. Category 5 hurricane. Your power was knocked out for two weeks. What happened next?
- [09:24]
B
So we had a dog in Florida. Her name is Maggie. She just passed away a couple months ago, unfortunately.
- [09:29]
A
Sorry.
- [09:29]
B
But when the hurricane hit, my dad stayed with our dog because we couldn't really take her to Pennsylvania in the short amount of time that all this happened. So. So my mom and I flew to where my grandparents lived in Pennsylvania, which is in Allentown, which is where I was born. And we hadn't been there in a while. And I was, like, doing my schoolwork. Cause I was homeschooled. We was doing my schoolwork in Allentown while Hurricane Irma is hitting Florida. My dad's there with the dog. And I've done all the schoolwork I can do for the day. And I'm kind of bored. Right? Cause I don't have any friends in Allentown anymore. So I'm just kind of bored. And my grandmother's like, why don't you come play pickleball? And at that time, I literally thought it was you hit a pickle like, over the net with, like, something. Because my mom and I played tennis, we were, like, too good for pickleball. Kind of at the time. We didn't really want to play. So a couple of days goes on. I refuse to play. We both do. Like, we refuse to play pickleball. And then finally we get to the point we're so bored that we go and play with my grandfather at the parks at, like, 9am One morning. And literally, the first time we play, we're, like, hooked. So we finished that session, and then we're like, can we play again? So then I think we played again at, like, 12:30. And then after that, we're like, we want to play again. I think we played, like, three times, like, the first day we ever played pickleball because we were just so addicted to it.
- [10:40]
A
And then you went to Dick's Sporting Goods and looked for rackets. Did they have rackets?
- [10:43]
B
So my grandfather had one good paddle from Dick's Sporting Goods, but we were just using, like, some crappy paddle. I don't know, some cheap paddle. And so we went to Dick's, and we're like, man, these paddles are kind of expensive. And at the time, they were, like, $65. And now you look at a nice paddle, and it's like, 300 bucks.
- [11:01]
A
Graphite.
- [11:02]
B
Yeah. So we were like, well, like, I think we bought one more good one. And then we were like, if we continue to like it, then we'll go, you know, buy another one. So we got another good paddle, and then we used the paddle so much that the paddle actually, like, the good one actually, like, had broke. By the time we had finished or by the time we had left Allentown, the paddle was, like, broken. And my grandfather, like, tried to glue it together because we had paid so much for this paddle, and he wanted. So I think my grandfather played with, like, a broken, like, glued paddle for, like, a year or something like that. But we were just addicted. We played so much, we literally broke the paddle the couple weeks we were there. And my dad's calling us because, like, the hurricane's over. He's like, you can come home now. We're like, no, we want to stay and play pickleball. Sorry. So I think we stayed for, like, two more days or three more days after we could even come home just because we wanted to play more pickleball.
- [11:49]
A
Let's talk about the history of pickleball, which most people don't know about. Pickleball was invented in 1965 on Bainbridge Island, Washington, by three friends at the summer home of Joel Pritchard, who was a neat little factoid, served as a Republican congressman from 1973 to 1985, and who, as the story goes, felt compelled to invent a new game to occupy their bored kids. Its name comes from a pickle boat, which, for those who don't know, which I didn't know, is a hastily assembled rowing crew and was a nod to the new pedal sport that they were cobbling together from parts of other sports, including badminton, tennis, and even wiffle ball.
- [12:26]
B
Interesting.
- [12:27]
A
Explain the rules of pickleball for those who don't know.
- [12:30]
B
So pickleball, I kind of like to say, is a mix, like you said, between like badminton, ping pong and tennis. You can fit four pickleball courts on one tennis court. So when you're playing pickleball, just like tennis, you serve from one box cross court to the other box. But there is a kitchen line, so the serve has to go over the kitchen line. Now, the kitchen line creates this kind of non volley zone, which you can't step in unless the ball bounces, and you also can't follow through into it.
- [12:57]
A
Okay, so just to be clear what, what, what you're saying, there is a kitchen area that I think is 4ft from the net.
- [13:04]
B
You have it better than I do how many feet it is that runs.
- [13:08]
A
Parallel to the net.
- [13:09]
B
Yes.
- [13:10]
A
And it's a stripe, just like tennis.
- [13:12]
B
Right.
- [13:13]
A
And if the ball lands in the kitchen, you can step in the kitchen.
- [13:17]
B
Right.
- [13:17]
A
But if the ball doesn't land in the kitchen, your toe can't even touch the line or you lose the point.
- [13:22]
B
Your paddle can't even hit the kitchen after you. Or that's a ball.
- [13:26]
A
Okay, so I just wanted to stay out of the kitchen, make clear that you know what we're talking about here. There's. There's a parallel line that in the kitchen is a space between that parallel line and the net.
- [13:37]
B
Yes.
- [13:37]
A
Okay, so keep going.
- [13:38]
B
Correct. Okay, you can explain that part. So after you serve your opponent's return, you have to let bounce, which is a little interesting, because in tennis, you can serve in volley if you want. In pickleball, you can't serve in volley. So you have to let their second shot bounce, and then you hit your third shot, and then you try to move into the net, which a lot of people, when they first start playing pickleball, they think they should hit their third shot and stay back. But you should try to get to the net as quick as possible in pickleball. So then once you're at the net, like you said, you can't step into the kitchen unless the ball bounces, and you also can't follow through. So you might see us on TV hitting these soft shots or these soft dinks of the net, and people have no idea. They're like, why don't you just hit it hard? But you have no idea how much spin and how low it's staying over the net. So you don't want to hit that hard, or else your opponent can just put that away on you. So we had these soft shots, and then once we see the ball get a little higher over the net or a little less spin, that's when you can kind of be aggressive and hit the ball hard.
- [14:35]
A
Right. I think a lot of pickleball players, including me, when you start playing, you just wail away.
- [14:41]
B
Yeah, I was the same way.
- [14:42]
A
Right. And then. And then when you whale away, what you learn is the ball comes back faster than you hit it, for sure. Because someone has usually gotten. Someone is at the net. If you're returning a serve, you whale away. They are at the net already, and they're just going to crush it back to you. But I think when people do see the game on tv, they've got, oh, my gosh, this is so easy. They're just lobbying the ball, lobbing the ball. But it's not.
- [15:06]
B
No, it's not. It's not as easy as it looks. Everybody comes up to me after they've seen in person be like, wow, this is way faster in person than it is on tv.
- [15:12]
A
Yeah. I mean, like. Like, many things are a lot faster. Yeah, it's fun. It's addictive, for sure.
- [15:19]
B
Very addictive.
- [15:20]
A
It's great. So you were homeschooled, and then what. What was that like? Did you feel like you were missing out on Friends and the maturity and the social aspect of being around kids your own age, male and female?
- [15:32]
B
Yeah. So the first eight years of my life, I lived in North Carolina, and I went to a private school there. So that was through second grade. And then when we moved to Florida, my grandmother actually came down from Allentown to homeschool me. She was a schoolteacher. So third grade was my first year. I started homeschooling. And funny thing, I actually hated going to school in North Carolina.
- [15:51]
A
Why?
- [15:52]
B
I had Mommy Itis. Like, I never wanted to be away from. I'm an only child, so I never like, Mommy Itis.
- [15:58]
A
Is that a predefined term?
- [15:59]
B
That's what she said I had. I don't know, anytime I went to school, I just missed my mom so much. So I think when I moved to Florida, I was actually really happy that I didn't go to school because my mom was a stay at home lawyer. So I got to see her all day, and we'd go play sports and play pickleball and stuff. So I absolutely loved it. But I think homeschooling really worked for me because like you said, if I hadn't been playing sports, maybe I wouldn't have gotten that interaction with people. But when I was about 10, I would go play pickleball with my mom and all of her friends or all the people that play pickleball. And they were older. So a lot of my best friends growing up were actually like, people in their 20s to 70s, like, this huge range. I really wasn't around people, like, my own age too much. I did play soccer, so I had like, my soccer friends, and they were my age, but a lot of my best friends were older. I was actually invited to one of my. So I was like 14, I think. And one of my best friends was having their wedding. They were getting married, and they asked me to be their flower girl. I was gonna be like the oldest flower girl ever. But it just shows you how, like, I was so young, but I had these friends who were older than me.
- [17:03]
A
So November 2017, two months after you come back from Pennsylvania, you played in your first tournament. I think it was the Delray Beach Gamma Tournament, which we didn't even sign.
- [17:13]
B
Up for, which is funny.
- [17:14]
A
So you just showed up and said, hey, can I play?
- [17:16]
B
No, we didn't even want to play the tournament. We were just playing for fun. And all the people in the Delray Beach Pickleball club, which is where we started playing after we came back from Pennsylvania, were like, you need to play this tournament. So they found us partners, they signed us up, and then we basically just showed up to the tournament. We didn't even know what level we really were. They signed me up for the lowest level, and they signed my mom up for pro, which is what she started in. So I started in the lowest level. My mom started in the highest level in mid tournament. They bumped me up to 3. 5. So I started in 3. 0. Mid tournament. They were like, you're too good to be in the lowest level. So they bumped me up to 3.5.
- [17:47]
A
Just for those people who don't know, what do those numbers mean?
- [17:50]
B
So three zero. Sometimes tournaments have two fives, but that's rare.
- [17:53]
A
So can you be a one or A two?
- [17:56]
B
No. Okay, so that's just two five, I think is like the lowest. But some tournaments don't even have that.
- [18:00]
A
Okay, so. But 30 is like the lowest for non pro players. People are kind of classified. You do it yourself.
- [18:07]
B
Just likenesses, right? Yeah.
- [18:09]
A
So beginner, intermediate and advanced. So what are the.
- [18:12]
B
I would say beginner is probably 30 to 4 0. And then intermediates probably 4 0. And then 4 5. 5. 055, I would say, is advanced.
- [18:25]
A
All right, so what number are you? Ten.
- [18:28]
B
I'm like a. I think my duper is a six. I think my duper is like a six. I don't know. You might have the stats on that as well. I don't know what my duper is.
- [18:37]
A
So you're. So your mom went pro in 2018 and she was playing doubles.
- [18:43]
B
Yes.
- [18:44]
A
And so much of our good fortune comes from things that just don't go according to plan.
- [18:48]
B
Yes.
- [18:48]
A
So her partner doesn't show up.
- [18:50]
B
Right.
- [18:51]
A
What happened next?
- [18:52]
B
So my mom's partner didn't show up to play a tournament in Texas.
- [18:55]
A
This was the Texas Open in Dallas.
- [18:57]
B
Texas Open in Dallas. And like a week before the tournament, or maybe not even, her partner was like, I can't go. But we had already had our flights booked. We were going, and my mom's like, analy, like, do you want to kind of play with me? And I was like, sure, like, we can try it. So we were just thinking of this as like, something fun we were going to do, and I was just going to fill in for a partner. And we actually ended up getting second in the tournament and losing to the team who won it, won three games. Pickleball is two out of three games, like sets, kind of. And we ended up losing in three to the team who won in the finals. So that was pretty cool. And my mom was like, all right, I guess you're ready to play, bro. So she ended up the next year, we ended up playing together and I think in January. So that was what in November was, that tournament? I don't know. Something like that. November. And then in January or February, we ended up beating the number one team in the world who hadn't been beaten in like 50 some matches or 100 and some matches, something crazy like that.
- [19:50]
A
That's incredible. I think most pro athletes or people who play professional sport, I think you can't play until you're 18 years old. In some leagues, you can't even play college basketball. You have to play at least one year before going to the pros. Yeah, but you're 12 years old and you become a pro, professional athlete. I know you're the youngest female pro player ever, but as you think about a professional sport, you might be the youngest professional athlete in any sport ever.
- [20:17]
B
What's crazy is when I, when we got silver in that tournament, I was actually 11 and I was 12 when we beat the number one team in the world. So a lot of people say I turned pro at 12, but if you count that one tournament, I was 11, which makes the stats even better for me.
- [20:31]
A
Okay.
- [20:31]
B
So I don't know, there might be like a skateboarder or something. He was 11 and played a pro tournament. We haven't really figured it out.
- [20:37]
A
Yeah.
- [20:38]
B
So it would be interesting to know if I was the youngest ever.
- [20:41]
A
But I mean, I've got five kids and I've got three kids who are past 11. 22 year old twins, 20 year old son. Actually they're going to be 23 and 21 each in a month and two months. But I was thinking back as I was preparing for this today and I was thinking, what were my kids like at 11 years old? I mean, how big were they? What were they like, how athletic were they? I mean, I can't even began to imagine them being in. They didn't. They're not naturally gifted athletes and I don't think they're gonna mind me saying that. My son skateboarded from 5 years old on and he was locally good, but, you know, nowhere like the Ryan Sheckler who's on my show or these other guys. But what were you thinking at 11 years old? I'm playing on a pro tour. Was, did I really know what you were doing? Did it sink in and said, I'm going pro at 11?
- [21:34]
B
I think it was. Well, when I first started playing pickleball tournaments, they were like 10 nets, table courts. They didn't feel as big and as grand as they do now. Like we're playing in these huge stadiums, but it was still a pro event. Okay.
- [21:45]
A
So just not to cut you off, what is a temp net and a temp court?
- [21:49]
B
So.
- [21:50]
A
Because they're all over the country now.
- [21:51]
B
Yeah. So a temporary net is kind of flimsy. And it's like if you hit the net tape, your ball is going to go over because the net kind of goes like this.
- [22:01]
A
Right.
- [22:01]
B
Because it's a temporary net. It's got on rollers so you can like take it apart and build it back up.
- [22:06]
A
Yeah.
- [22:07]
B
Whereas like these permanent nets, you can't really take apart and Build back up. They're kind of just there.
- [22:12]
A
So. So like, tennis court, permanent court has metal stakes that go into the cement, and that is kind of built in. I mean, you can take it off, obviously. But now what people are doing, because it's expensive to build pickleball courts and there's tennis courts. Pickleballs take over. Tennis is. They put up basically, like you said, they're temporary posts, and they're never gonna be as good as.
- [22:38]
B
There's also different levels of, like, temporary nets in pickleball. Think of, like the lowest level temporary net. Cause like, the ones we play on the pro tour now, those are still temporary nets, but they're really nice. And they're like. They're basically permanent.
- [22:51]
A
Okay?
- [22:51]
B
They're just not, like you said, into the ground because we resurface a lot of the cords, so they don't want us putting these poles into the ground.
- [22:59]
A
Okay?
- [22:59]
B
But they're way nicer than the first level temporary net, which we used to play. And when I mean taped cords, I mean, like it's on a tennis court and they just put like, like orange tape on it, okay? And that's the lines. So, like, if it hits the tape, it's like gone. You know what I mean? Whereas now it's like paint. So it's. It's a good court. But they didn't resurface anything. It was just tape. And then they put this temporary net up, and that was like a pro match.
- [23:25]
A
So. All right, so back to the question.
- [23:28]
B
What was I thinking?
- [23:29]
A
You're 11 years old, and did you understand what was happening?
- [23:32]
B
Not really, to be honest. And I think that worked in my advantage because I had no pressure. One, two. I was 11 and I was playing all these 30 year olds. So I'd hit a shot and like, laugh at him. I'd be like, ha, Ha ha, I'm 11. You can't get. You know what I mean?
- [23:43]
A
Like, you were taunting 30 years old.
- [23:46]
B
I wasn't actually, like, pointing at them and saying that, but in my head I was just like, oh, that's kind of cool, you know? But then eventually it got to the point where I just felt like I was their age. Like, even though I was 12, I felt like I was 30 playing a third, you know what I mean? Like, like over time, like now I'm still 17, I'm still young. Most people I'm playing are like 10 years older than me, but I still feel like we're the same age. Just because it's a pro sport, you're Playing at such a high level, like, when you're on the court, you're really not thinking that this person's 25 and I'm 17. You're just thinking about point by point. But when I was 11, playing these tournaments, I had no pressure. I was playing with my mom. I was just having fun. And I think that's why I was playing so well. I was just having a great time playing what I loved doing it with my mom.
- [24:27]
A
But soccer was your first love, and at some point, you had a chance to play in Germany as a young age. And, like, so many great athletes. Well, not so many. The super gifted ones, they have to pick. And so what. What was it that you said, all right, I'm. Soccer is my true love, but I'm going to go for pickleball?
- [24:43]
B
Well, at the time I made that decision, I actually liked soccer more than pickleball.
- [24:47]
A
Right.
- [24:48]
B
So this was around Covid, like, right before COVID happened is when I got that offer to go play in Germany under the pro team, and I was considering doing it. I was going to do school there. I think my parents might have, like, come, like, to see, like, move. Not, like, move there, but, like, been there some of the time. And I was like, we were making this decision, and then all of a sudden, Covid happened, and my parents were like, all right, not even on the table anymore, because we don't know what's going on. We're not going to send you away to a foreign country that they've never been to. So I think that kind of made the decision for me, Covid, which kind of sucked, I guess, looking back on it. But I'm kind of glad at the same time because I think I made the right ch. But when Covid happened, I didn't even play pickleball tournaments. Like, we lived with my grandparents at the time, so we didn't, like I said, didn't really know what's going on. And we wanted to keep them safe. So I just kind of trained, did stuff at home. I still trained soccer, kind of doing both. And then when we came back and played our first tournament after Covid, my mom and I went to a pickleball tournament, and we did terrible. We lost, like, second round. I remember us in the parking lot, like, after that match being like, should we quit pickleball? Like, I'm just gonna go play soccer. We suck. Like, we're gonna quit. Like, we were just like. My dad was like, what are you talking about? We're like, we're gonna quit. We're done. And then we realized during COVID all the players started putting lead tape on their paddles, and that makes the paddle more solid and hit harder. So, like, our game used to be to speed the ball up and hit hard, but we do that, and all these people were just hitting balls down our throats, like, super hard. We're like, this just doesn't work anymore. Like, what? And then we realized they were putting lead tape on. We put lead tape on our paddles, and we were like, okay, we're good again. So that's crazy.
- [26:26]
A
There were no rules. I know. I mean, in baseball, you have to have a wood bat. In pickleball, how far can you go? I mean, the rackets have come a long way, right?
- [26:33]
B
That's actually something being discussed right now because the paddles are getting a little crazy. Like, the spin people are able to make. The power people are able to hit now is. Is getting out of hand. And there's no really reg. There is regulation, but they're trying to figure out, like, what is that limit? Like, how high should the limit be? Should it be higher? So on TV it looks faster and more difficult, but does that make it dangerous for the players? And then does that make it. Does that make the points actually shorter because people are able to hit these shots? Does it make it slower? Because nobody wants to speed up the ball because somebody's just going to put. So there's all these different factors that are going into this right now. And April 1st, they're going to come out with their first regulation of like, all right, this is what it has to be. So right now they're just trying to figure things out. But it's definitely an argument between players, paddle companies, tours, like, about what the limit should be.
- [27:23]
A
What kind of players would benefit from a harder racket?
- [27:27]
B
Well, interesting enough, this is kind of. It's kind of personal preference. Personally, I feel like, let's say the power goes up to this extreme. Power, right? It's almost impossible to control because it's so hard. Like, there's. There becomes a point where it's too hard. It doesn't even benefit you to have a paddle that's that hard. Whereas spin, the higher you go in spin, that's not ever going to hurt you, you know, that's always going to make you better. So if the spin's super high, in my opinion, that's worse than the power being super high, because I don't see these players using super powerful paddles because they're not going to be able to Control it. They're going to go to hit a dink and it's going to hit, you know, it's going to be like an overhead eventually. Whereas other people think power spin is less important. And it can be as high as you want and power needs to be lower. So it's just this kind of battle right now between kind of what it should be. Like, should spin be higher? Should power be higher? Should they be the same? Should they be both low? Should they be both high? Like, it's crazy right now. And it's hard to test too, because people are making paddles differently. Like, some are foam injected, others are just carbon, some are foam in certain areas with carbon here, which really changes the effects of the paddle. And because the sport's so new, people are probably like, what is she talking about right now? But because the sport's so new, nobody really knows. Like, people are still creating new technology. And, you know, they're figuring out dwell time means more than the grit on the actual paddle, which is dwell times how long it stays on the paddle. And they're saying the grit and how it feels means nothing. So it's like this crazy. They're finding out these crazy statistics recently that we didn't know. Like, for the past like 10 years, people have been playing pickleball. It's kind of crazy.
- [29:07]
A
Perfect time to plug your own paddle. What do you want to say about your own paddle?
- [29:11]
B
Yeah, so I use the paddle tech alwc. That one is not foam injected. It's just carbon. And it's kind of the perfect balance between spin and power. It's probably a little bit on the poppier side. So I'll take a little bit less spin for a little bit more power. Cause that's my game. Paddle tech also have paddles that are kind of the opposite. More spin versus power. Like you were saying, which paddle would benefit which players. So I kind of feel like whatever your strength is, that's the paddle you should pick. Because, like.
- [29:38]
A
But if you're a beginner, you have no idea, right?
- [29:41]
B
Then you kind of just have to test things out.
- [29:42]
A
You go to whoever the salesperson is telling you, oh, you're a beginner player, right?
- [29:46]
B
Or you like a certain player and so you want to use their paddle. But I would say so, like, if you think you're more of a finesse spinny player, like, pick a paddle that really enhances that. Or if you're a banger and you like to hit hard, pick a paddle that enhances that. Whereas I think some people Think, oh, whatever. My weakness is I need more of that. But it's like. But if you're really good at it, you know what I mean?
- [30:05]
A
Give people a sense of how that fast that ball is going. In baseball, if you're a pitcher, 100 miles per hour is the bogey. You got a. You got a flaming fastball. What, What. How fast is that pickleball?
- [30:17]
B
So for a serve, like somebody who can serve really hard, I think it's like 70, maybe miles an hour that they're hitting their serve as far as, like, hands and put aways. I don't know the stats on that. I've just seen people with the radar gun doing the serves. But I will say, when you get to that, like, five, zero up level, the ball, I would say, is probably coming two times harder than everything below that. And then when you get even higher, it's kind of crazy how hard people are hitting the ball.
- [30:46]
A
So we've talked about this a little bit, but the game is actually won mostly at the net, right? I mean, whaling away is not going to get you very far because the reflexes of players are just way too fast. I encourage everybody who hasn't seen an Instagram reel on your or Ben John's playing pickleball, you got to see this because that ball is going back and forth in less than a second. Back and forth. I mean, in some cases, milliseconds. Right? I mean, what is the speed if you know, between a fast volley back and forth?
- [31:18]
B
Yeah. Well, in the women's game, we tend to have longer hands battles. So, like, if somebody, like you said, hits the ball hard from the net, we tend to have that volley exchange for a longer period, period of time. Whereas the men's game's a little slower and they hit more dinks. Because when a guy speeds it up, usually if it's not a good speed up, he can just put it away at your feet. So I would say the men probably hit it harder than the women do, but the women can hit it harder for longer. Like, our points are quicker. So I. And it also depends on the paddle. Like I said, certain paddles hit harder than other paddles, but I would say, like the poppiest paddle, it's probably coming at you in less than a second.
- [31:58]
A
I mean, it's hard for people to know because, like you said, it's a lot faster in real life. And again, people really got to watch some of your volleys and some of Ben's volleys. I mean, not just yours, but, I mean, this is you can really see the speed on Instagram or when you're watching a YouTube video, just how fast this actually.
- [32:13]
B
Well, I mean, some male players on their overheads have hit the ball so hard that when it bounces it, like, it stops. It just, like, dies and switching. Yeah. Basically, the ball breaks.
- [32:23]
A
So for those people who don't know, by the way, we haven't talked about the ball, the ball is essentially a wiffle ball.
- [32:29]
B
Yes.
- [32:29]
A
It looks a little bit, and I haven't measured it. A little bigger than a tennis ball.
- [32:33]
B
Yep.
- [32:34]
A
And it doesn't bounce.
- [32:35]
B
No. Like, if you were to bounce a tennis ball, it'd come out to probably about where you dropped it from. Whereas a pickleball, if you bounced it from here, would probably stop there.
- [32:44]
A
Going from tennis to pickleball, you know, we have a pickleball court at our house, and we have a bunch of people who come over, and, you know, the first few times they're tennis players, and they. They're used to lots of things in tennis that don't really transfer into pickleball. What. What are some of those things?
- [33:01]
B
Well, I feel like I kind of had the perfect amount of tennis. I played four years of tennis, which gave me kind of the strokes and the shot selection, but it. It didn't make me so ingrained in tennis to where when I went and played pickleball, like, the bounce was really throwing me off, you know? Whereas if you played tennis for, say, 20 years and then you go play pickleball, you're like, what the heck is this ball doing? Like, it's not bouncing at all. Which is also why I think when you're playing both sports at the same time, you get kind of used to it. But if you've just played one your whole life and then you switch to pickleball, might be interesting, but definitely, like, if you're hitting ground strokes from the back with somebody, the ball doesn't bounce near as high as a tennis ball does. Also, you're never really serving overhand. You can't. You can't serve overhand and pickleball. So the ball is never, like, bouncing super high, like, over your head on your returns. Everything kind of is, like, below the waist, except for some of the volleys, which are, like, up here, which is like tennis. But a lot of times in tennis, you'll see the ball bounce up super high, whereas in pickleball, most of the time, it's super low. Like, more effective shots are keeping the ball low, whereas in tennis, the more spin you put on the Ball, the better it is. In pickleball, the more spin, the better it is. But it doesn't bounce high, it bounces lower. So it's kind of the flip.
- [34:07]
A
So in our lives as parents, we always want our kids to be better than us. I remember and I can't remember how old I was, but. And I'm not a great athlete. I think I'm average athlete.
- [34:20]
B
What sports did you play?
- [34:21]
A
I didn't really play any professional or. I didn't really play sports as a kid.
- [34:26]
B
Okay.
- [34:26]
A
The best things I'm great at is throwing a football. Never played football, but it's something I'm very good at.
- [34:32]
B
Okay. Perfect spiral.
- [34:34]
A
Oh, yeah. You know, with a professional ball, I can throw it 55 yards.
- [34:38]
B
Oh, wow. Okay.
- [34:39]
A
Yeah. The highlight of my athletic career was I was on vacation. Tom Brady was there, and he was walking down toward the beach, and I was playing this guy who we were jawing and trash talking for months before we got down there. It was a wedding, and he's a stocky guy, and we're warming up on the beach and he's throwing bullets. I'm just trying to get my arm loose, and I'm lobbing him over there, and he's going back and back, and he just kept going. And at some point, I've got to come in to catch his balls, right? And I'm still throwing a tight spiral, and now I'm putting a little heat on it because you need a little heat to get it to go further.
- [35:17]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [35:18]
A
And I could see Tom coming down on the beach, and my wife was sitting ten foot behind me, and she could see Tom, and I just waited for him to pass me. And I told this guy, jj and jj, if you're listening, I got you on this one. And I told him, go deeper, you know, Go deeper. And, you know, he went like this. He was probably 40 yards down, and he was just not getting the ball back to me. And so I go. He goes like this. And I let one loose, and it went way over his head. And Tom Brady says, holy shit, what a cannon. And that's about as good as it's going to get for me.
- [35:56]
B
Yeah. No, he remembers exact words. Must have meant a lot.
- [35:59]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then I said to my wife, too, I said. I looked at her and she said, I know, I know. I'm never going to hear the end of it for the rest of my life.
- [36:08]
B
That's pretty cool, though.
- [36:09]
A
I mean, then I said, yeah, you know, you're a million percent right. You're never going to hear the end of it. And then I wake surf as well, and I'm a pretty decent wake surfer.
- [36:22]
B
I went surfing for the first time ever and. Oh, my gosh, where did we go? It was like the biggest. Oh, we went to Costa Rica. It was the biggest wave swell of the year. And it was my first day surfing. And I was out there and these crazy high waves. It's my first day and I'm, like, doing terrible. I think I rode, like, one wave the whole day, and it's kind of scarred me.
- [36:44]
A
Regular surfing?
- [36:45]
B
Yeah, just regular surfing.
- [36:46]
A
You just went out there on your own with other.
- [36:47]
B
No, there was a guy. There's an instructor.
- [36:49]
A
Yeah.
- [36:50]
B
But he didn't tell me until after that it was like the highest waves.
- [36:54]
A
Did you get up?
- [36:55]
B
Yeah, I could. I rode one all the way down, but I'd like, get up and then fall off, so.
- [37:02]
A
I remember beating my dad at basketball, and he was not an athlete either, but I remember. I don't know how old I was. 11, 12 years old. My son Charlie's 20 years old. @ some point he can beat me at basketball. Maybe, maybe not. Charlie, if you're listening, you're definitely a better skateboarder than me. I am a better surfer than you. You can beat me at pickleball, but I can throw the football a lot further than you can. And you think you're faster than me even at 56? I'm not really sure that you are. We'll have to see about that one day. But it is a great moment when your kids do better than you. It's an accomplishment. At some point. Your mom used to kick your butt at pickleball, for sure. And then you played her in a tournament and you beat her. And your mom didn't like that very much at first.
- [37:50]
B
No, she didn't. It was kind of weird because it kind of went from her, like, annihilating me in tournaments and mixed doubles to then all of a sudden I beat her, like, in a tournament. And it was a very interesting night. It wasn't the best. She told my dad and I to go to dinner by ourselves.
- [38:05]
A
Right. She went back to her hotel room and wallowed in her question.
- [38:09]
B
Yeah, we went up and I was kind of like, well, first of all, playing your mom in a professional tournament is a thing on its own. Like, that is crazy. Like, the emotions, like, you want to win, but you want her to win, but you don't want to win. But then you're competitive, so you want. It's like the Craziest thing ever. But then like you said, it was the first time I'd ever beat my mom in pickleball. And she didn't really know how to take it or react because like you said, she had kind of beaten me my whole life at every, every sport because I wasn't that old. But then when I got to this age, I think I was 12 and I beat her and she was like, it's not time yet. Like, you're 12 years old, like you shouldn't be beating me yet. And I had beaten her for the first time. So it took her, I think it took her like 24 hours and then she was over it. But the first that 24 hours was definitely an interesting day. I don't think anybody really knew how go about the day. It was just weird.
- [38:55]
A
Right. So you said your mom was a lawyer. She'd been practicing for 15 years. She worked at a firm called Nelson Mullins. And then she gave up her law practice to basically be your coach. Tour manager. Manager. What was that like at that exact moment when, I mean, that's really the ultimate sacrifice.
- [39:13]
B
Yeah, I mean, when she decided to stop being a lawyer, we were playing together at the same time or we were playing together as a team. So we were traveling, playing pro tournaments. So it wasn't yet like she was still coaching me, but it like she wasn't playing anymore and she just kind of took this like behind the scenes role. She was still playing pro and we were having so much fun. She was like, law's always going to be there for me. But, you know, I don't know how long we'll be able to play together and do this. So I think maybe she thought kind of in her head when we stopped playing together she might become a lawyer again. But then she realized how awesome pickleball is and how she never wanted to practice law again.
- [39:49]
A
Good move on her part because I used to be a lawyer and I absolutely hated it. I started my career two and a half years. Very, very unsuccessful lawyer, by the way.
- [39:57]
B
Yeah. So I think being a lawyer is also just stressing my mom out because she was doing, she was practicing law and she was hearing all these like, bad stories and stuff. So I think she just didn't really enjoy that. So playing pickleball was much happier for her. So after she tore ACL and we couldn't play together anymore, she. I was kind of like, mom, do you want to coach me? Like, and it kind of. I didn't really ask her that question. It kind of just Happened like after she recovered from her knee injury, she tore acl, she recovered. She then just started practicing with me and then feeding me balls. And it kind of became more of like this coach aspect because we used to when we'd go practice, she'd work on something and I'd work on something. It wasn't just, you know, her telling me what to work on and us working on that. So it kind of progressed into this thing where now she's my coach. I don't pay her. So I'm sorry, Mom, but she does it because she loves it.
- [40:45]
A
You don't pair today?
- [40:46]
B
No, I don't pair.
- [40:47]
A
Not like the Kardashians, where the mom is worth hundreds of millions of dollars for.
- [40:53]
B
Yeah, no, I don't. I don't pay her. At the most, she has another student who she teaches and he pays her.
- [40:58]
A
Okay, who's the student?
- [40:59]
B
Christian Alshon.
- [41:00]
A
Does he have a number one player?
- [41:02]
B
Non mixed doubles. No kidding.
- [41:05]
A
Putting on the spot here.
- [41:07]
B
I know.
- [41:07]
A
Watching right over here, she's thinking, God, my daughter better effing say yes right now.
- [41:13]
B
No, but. So she thought he had potential, so she started coaching him, which was actually good because we could practice together. And it helped me because he's like, he's top 10 in all three as well.
- [41:25]
A
How old is he?
- [41:26]
B
24.
- [41:28]
A
He's old.
- [41:29]
B
24 compared to me. I know, right? I think he causes her more problems than I do. So maybe that's why I don't pay her. I'll pay her if I start causing her problems. So now it's kind of like this thing where she's known as a pickleball coach. When people are looking down at the sport, they see her as like a really good coach, but they don't really remember us playing together because the sport kind of exploded right after as she tore acl, which kind of sucks because we were the number one team when she tore ACL and we were on top. And now all of a sudden, people look at the sport and they don't remember that. They just see her as my coach. And like you said, my manager, my mom, when she does all those things, she books all the flights, you know, she does everything for me, so I couldn't do what I do without her. She takes all the pressure of everything but pick a off of me so I can just really focus on playing, which is awesome. And then I have my dad, who kind of does the same thing. We all travel together and we're all just very dedicated to the sport. And I guess my Professional career, which is kind of cool that I get to do it with my whole family, because for a while it was just my mom and I traveling together, but now my dad travels with us, which is very needed because I told my mom I think this year we've been home the least amount of any year. It's just gotten crazy where I'm doing stuff like podcasts and sponsors are asking me to do things, more tournaments, just all this crazy stuff. So having two people to kind of help me get through that has been awesome. But I feel like every year there's something else that's, like, added to my plate, and then one of them takes it for me. So I'm very lucky right now.
- [43:00]
A
When your mom gave up her career, at what point did your dad. He was managing a hog farm right in the family business. So when did. When did he.
- [43:07]
B
So my dad actually sold his part of the hog farm because it was like his family's hog farm that he was working for. And they. I don't know how it was split up, but he sold his share of it. And then he started working for a construction company in Florida where he sold construction materials so he could kind of work from home, too. It was like half and half. Like, he have to go to some sites some days, but other days he could be home. So I kind of had both my parents work from home for a lot of my life, which was awesome because I was able to do fun stuff with them. And we're like. We're really close family. Like, my mom's like, my best friend. I think my dad's my best friend, too. My dad's like my brother. We just, like, do things that makes mom upset. We just play pranks on mom all the time and do fun stuff. So it's been really cool to kind of grow up that way. I'm an only child, too, so I don't have any siblings. So that also makes me closer to my parents, which is cool. But, yeah, it's just been great to travel the country with them.
- [43:58]
A
In some sports, you reach the pinnacle of your career when you're 19 years old, maybe 20 years old. You reached the pinnacle of your sport when you were 14 years old, number one in the world in singles, doubles, and mixed doubles. How did that feel when you became number one in all three categories?
- [44:11]
B
To be honest, I remember getting the things in the mail that said, like, oh, number one player in the world. And I was like, oh, this is cool. Put it on the shelf. And kind of like, didn't really get anything of it?
- [44:20]
A
Is it a trophy?
- [44:21]
B
Yeah, it's like a little. It was like a rectangular thing that's set up like this. And it just said, annalee Waters, number one in the world, women's singles. And then one said women's doubles, and one said mixed doubles, whatever. Like, I remember getting these in the mail.
- [44:33]
A
Nice box. I mean, did it come in like.
- [44:34]
B
Yeah, it was a nice trophy. But I remember, like, literally, like, looking at it, being like, that's cool. Putting it on the shelf and like, going on with like, my day. Like, I think we might have celebrated, gone to dinner, but I. I don't know. Like, I said, I never was like, I'm number one in the world. And, like, thought about it all the time, but it was just really cool. And I feel like I just kind of always expected that of myself. So when it happened, I was like, oh, like this. This is like what I always thought I, like, was gonna do. So, like, it's cool that it happened. But, like, I always thought I was gonna. I always thought I was go, you know, be number one. Which I think that self belief, but also that kind of like, drive is kind of like the perfect combination to why I've been able to, like, sustain it for so long. But at the same time, pickleball is getting tougher. A lot of better players are getting into the sport. So I don't know how long at this point, looking back, I'm like, I probably should have enjoyed it more because now I'm like, I don't know how long I'll be number one in all three. So I should really enjoy, you know, every moment that I'm number one in all three divisions.
- [45:30]
A
I think it's very rare that people know at a young age what they want to do. I mean, I know a lot of people, you know, when I was young, you want to be a professional baseball player, football player, but very few people can actually do it. What's your advice to everybody? All the. All the teenagers out there and even the young adults?
- [45:45]
B
Well, even the reason I figured it out was because I really didn't like school growing up. So I'm like, what can I do that I don't have to go to like a 9 to 5 job? And I was like, I love playing sports, so, like, I'm going to try really hard in sports so I don't have to do that, you know, when I'm older. So I think one of my MLP owners is Gary V. Gary Vaynerchuk, who.
- [46:04]
A
Was on my show A couple weeks ago.
- [46:05]
B
Awesome. Okay, Gary.
- [46:06]
A
Shout out to Gary.
- [46:07]
B
So, like, his motto is, like, you might be 40 and still not really know what you're gonna do in life. And that's not too old. So I don't want to be like, figure it out when you're, you know, 10 or 11 or whenever I figured out. Cause I was just very blessed and very lucky that I was able to figure out what I wanted to do. And even then, I didn't really know I was gonna play pickleball. It was more like 12, 13, that I really was like, all right, I'm gonna stick to pickleball. So I was very blessed that I was kind of. That decision was just kind of put on a platter for me. And I was like, I'll take it. Whereas, like, some of my friends and other peers that, you know, they don't really know what they want to do in their life yet. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. I think, you know, eventually you'll figure it out. And the most important thing is just kind of doing what you love, because pickleball is what I love, and that's why I chose it. So my message would be just do what you love whenever you find it. I think it's the right path for you.
- [46:55]
A
Let's talk about pickleball now and some statistics here.
- [46:58]
B
Okay?
- [47:00]
A
Pickleball is the fastest growing sport in America. It's grown 39% since 2019. In 2022, there were 23.8 million tennis players and 36.5 million pickleball players. Today, there's over 40 million pickleball players. The population of the United states as of December 1st of this year was 346,199,668 people, which means that 11.55% of pickleball players in the United States play pickleball. Why?
- [47:33]
B
It's just so fun and addicting, like you said earlier. Like, I feel like the problem maybe a couple years ago is people just didn't want to try it. Like, they were like, it's kind of stupid. Kind of like what my mom and I thought, like, I'm not even going to try it. I feel like now a lot more people are trying it, and the second they try it, they're just addicted and then want to play and then tell everybody they know. When we first started playing pickleball, anytime we saw any of our friends or anybody we knew, we're like, have you played pickleball yet? Like, you need to go play So I feel like the more because people started actually playing, it just kind of like boomeranged from there. Like it started spreading and people were like, it's so fun. Just play once. Like you'll be addicted. I also think it's the only good thing that came out of COVID because a lot of families couldn't go out and do things together, but they could put pickleball courts up in their driveway and they were actually playing that way. Or they'd go to their local parks and they'd play pickleball. So it was a way that their families could interact because pickleball is something that all levels can play and have fun. Like I can go play with my dad, who's like a 3.035, and I'll still have fun playing with him.
- [48:30]
A
Gotta come over. There's a lot of 3, 0 players playing at our house.
- [48:34]
B
But like tennis, we have fun games.
- [48:36]
A
By the way, it's very fun.
- [48:39]
B
But in tennis you couldn't do that. So I think that's why it was a great sport during COVID because everybody could play together. Like my 7 year old grandma can go out and hit with us, you know, Whereas in tennis that couldn't be possible. And also the celebrities started playing and they started posting it on social media. I think one of the Kardashians put a court at their house. So I also think the fact that celebrities love it and many influential people love pickleball and want to put a lot of money into it. There are so many billionaires that I've met through pickleball and they're so passionate about the sport that they don't want it to fail. So if you have 10 billionaires not wanting pickleball to fail, it's pretty hard for it to fail, you know, type thing. So, yeah, I think we're just lucky that a lot of people really love the sport.
- [49:20]
A
Interestingly, you don't have to be a young player to enjoy it or be good at it. 20% of people who play pickleball are 55 years and older, which is crazy.
- [49:30]
B
Because when I first started playing, it was like 100% of people were 55 and older. That's cool. Stat.
- [49:36]
A
Now, you said it's easy to play, tough to master. What do you need to do to master it for those of us who are frustrated and wish we could be better?
- [49:47]
B
Well, I think the first thing is you just need to play the first step of pickleball. Don't listen to what anybody's telling you. Just go out and Play how you want to play. And then after maybe a couple months of figuring out your game style, then you can start watching instructional videos and doing things like that. But I think the first couple months, just don't listen to anybody. Just go out and play. You got to know the rules, but other than that, just play how you want. Because when my mom and I first started playing, we played this super aggressive game style, and that was not how pickleball was played at all. Like, everybody was just hitting these soft shots, these soft dinks, and we were out there, like, wailing at it, because that's what we were used to by playing tennis. And everybody was like, you need to change your game. You won't get better doing this. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, there were maybe three people who told us we were. What we were doing was okay, one of them being Ben Johns. And everybody else was saying, you know, you're gonna. You're gonna never get better doing this. So I think some people still have that opinion now, but it's a lot different. Like, people are saying, you can play more aggressive. I mean, you don't hit every shot hard, but when you get the shot, you should go for it. Whereas when we first started playing, it was, you get the shot, you still hit a soft shot back. And we figured out that was our strength, and we used it. So I think if you're starting to play pickleball, figure out what your strengths are and then figure out how to make them better.
- [50:59]
A
At some point, I stopped playing pickup basketball. You know, you go on Saturday, you want to be a weekend warrior. I'm not sure if I was 30 years old or 35, because I would always hear someone blowing their knee out or ACL injury. You know, you think you're 20 years old and pickleball. A lot of people are getting injured. Knee injuries are up. I started playing in this clinic on Mondays. It's for 3, 035 players. And I finally get moved up to the best court, playing my best pickleball ever. Someone hit a lob, I went up for it. Barely nicked the top of my racket, didn't hit it. And I came down on my ankle sideways. And it was just an. I was. There were, I don't know, 60 players. I'm screaming in agony, right? Like, oh, my God, this is terrible. I could hardly walk. Went to my orthopedist, who we knew very well because my son was a skateboarder, and he would break his wrist once every three or four months. So we literally went speed Dial. At some point the joke was shout out to Dr. Grogan. At some point, the joke was, I should buy some kind of a frequent flyer or frequent mileage just to go to him. And it was a very bad sprain. I'm finally walking now without a limp, but I can't. It's very hard for me to move my leg side to side, and I have not played in about two months. What's your advice to all the people going out there not to get injured?
- [52:17]
B
I know there's a couple things. I'm not saying this is you, but a lot of people go out and play pickleball for the first time having not done any physical activity in like five years or so. And they think pickleball's super easy. And they go out and most of the time, like you said, they're going back for a lob and they fall backwards or they run for a ball that they can't get to and they end up falling or something like that. So think of pickleball as like an easy, easier alternative to like basketball, like you said. But you also can't think of it as like, not a sport, as just like an activity like bowling, you know, like, you have to be in some shape to some athletic shape to play. You can't, you know, not do anything for five years and then go play a competitive game of pickleball and expect not to get injured. So I think that's one of the main things is people don't think it's as difficult movement wise as it actually is. Number two is you're doing a lot of sideways movement in pickleball, which our bodies mainly want to go forward and backwards. So going sideways all the time isn't necessarily great for your joints and your, you know, bones, whatever. So that's why I go to my PT all the time, just for preventative work. I do obviously get injured because I play so much pickleball occasionally. But going to a PT to kind of prevent these injuries from happening is a great step. So I would say maybe if you're deciding you want to start playing pickleball a couple times a week, maybe seeing a PT once a week to just kind of prevent your injuries would be a good step. Or going to, like, the gym a couple of times a week, I don't know, just. Just working out a little bit as well as playing pickleball. Don't just play pickleball.
- [53:46]
A
My doctor gave me an interesting stat. He said that if you're 50 years or older, you'll get injured one out of a hundred times on average.
- [53:54]
B
Okay.
- [53:54]
A
Which is a very interesting stat. I mean, this is his empirical. These are.
- [53:58]
B
I probably get injured more than that. So that's a good stat for.
- [54:01]
A
And he said it's the biggest part of his practice right now. And he's. We live in west la and he's. He's the guy. He's the doctor that everyone goes to when they break a bone or something. I just thought that was a very interesting stat.
- [54:13]
B
No, it is.
- [54:14]
A
Let's talk about what being a professional works. Talk about the leagues, how they work, and then talk about the teams and how those work and how they interact with each other. Yeah.
- [54:23]
B
This is kind of confusing for most people looking in unpickable. They don't really know what's going on right now with all the tours and leagues. I think. I think when the PPA and MLP merge, which I'll get to, what those are, I think that made it easier for people looking in to kind of understand what's happening. So I'll explain each one. I'll start with the app. So the app, all the pros kind of like to think of as like a feeder to.
- [54:43]
A
What does it stand for? Association of Professional Association.
- [54:47]
B
Yeah, association. They're all kind of like. That just flipped around. Okay. So that's kind of like the feeder tour to the ppa. Like, pros who don't want to commit to playing the top players in the world right away kind of go play the app tour. And when they get good enough, then they decide to go to the ppa or the PPA will sign them a contract and they'll come play with ppa. The PPA is professional or pro pickleball Association. And that is where you'll see like the number ones in the world, like Ben Johns, myself. That's where, like the top 10 means something. They have rankings, like, it's more legit and that's like the number one tour. So you think of like WTA, ATP. Like that's what the PPA is you get. You know what I'm saying? Okay. And that is like you play singles, mixed and gender doubles, and that's one tournament.
- [55:36]
A
And then they play all three at.
- [55:38]
B
Every tournament at every time, if you want to.
- [55:40]
A
Okay.
- [55:41]
B
Yeah. And just like tennis, they have four majors every year and those have more points than the other tournaments. And then they also have. So a major is 2000 points, and then they have what's called like a cup, and that's 1500 points, and then they have 500 points. Which is just like their regular, like a challenger type tournament. And the 1500s and 2000 tournaments are a week long, kind of. The qualifying is Monday and then the draw starts Tuesday and then I get buys, so I start Wednesday.
- [56:16]
A
You gotta buy because you're one of the best players.
- [56:18]
B
Yeah. So the top, I don't know, it depends how many people are playing the tournament. But the top, whatever, get a bye and start Wednesday. And then Wednesday through Sunday is like the main tournament. That's when you'll see the best matches. Saturday and Sunday, Saturday's semifinals, Sunday's finals. They call it Championship Sunday, which is usually the most watched day of all the tournaments because it's all the finals, which is usually the most grueling day for me because I'm usually playing in all three finals. So it starts Wednesday. I'll play singles, mixed doubles, gender doubles, all on the same day. And then I'll do that five days in a row. And to win the tournament, you'd have to win all of those matches through all five days.
- [56:57]
A
So what number of matches do you have to win for each of those three titles? Five to win five matches.
- [57:03]
B
Unless you don't have a buy. Then it's six.
- [57:05]
A
And you're playing three matches a day for four days.
- [57:09]
B
Five days, five days, six days. If you don't have a buy, how.
- [57:13]
A
Long are you in the court for on every day and how long is the break between these matches?
- [57:17]
B
Each match can be anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour and a half. And in between matches I usually have anywhere from an hour and a half break to a four hour break.
- [57:29]
A
What do you do during your breaks?
- [57:30]
B
Usually I eat food. A peanut butter and jelly sandwich.
- [57:35]
A
PB&J.
- [57:35]
B
Yeah, PB&J. My stomach's kind of weird, so I have to eat very bland foods on tournament days. So think of like triscuits, clif bars, PB&J, stuff like that.
- [57:44]
A
Shout out to all the potential sponsors. Yeah, right here.
- [57:48]
B
If you want to sponsor me, I'm open to it. I do eat your foods almost every day on tournament days.
- [57:53]
A
We'll talk to Kelly Wolfe, your awesome manager who set us up today. So shout out to Kelly.
- [57:57]
B
Yes, shout out to Kelly, best manager. But so like Wednesday, usually the tournament gets tougher as the week goes on because you know you're getting into like the semifinals and finals as the week goes on. So usually like my matches on Wednesday aren't as long as like. Like on Sunday when you're playing a potential 3 out of 5 match, which can be 2 hours. So one of my Sundays was crazy. I had two doubles matches that went both to five sets, and then I had a singles match that went to three games, which is crazy. It was like I was on court for like, like six, seven hours. I think one day I was on Court for 12 hours on a championship Sunday. So it's like, can be very grueling, especially at the end of the tournament. Like playing those Sunday matches is crazy. But that's the cups and the majors. When you get to like the 500s. It starts Thursday.
- [58:47]
A
What's the 500? What?
- [58:49]
B
So that's 500 points, okay?
- [58:50]
A
Oh, 500 points.
- [58:51]
B
500 points. Which is the lowest level tournament. You start Thursday and on Thursday is all the singles. So you play all the singles up to the final match, and then Friday you play all the mixed doubles up to the final match. Saturday, all the gender doubles up to the final match. And then Sunday you play the finals of everything. So instead of alternating events on each day, you play everything in the same event. Which can be kind of tough because think about playing like four or five singles matches all in one day.
- [59:16]
A
I. I can't, right? I mean, I play one hour of pickleball and I'm drenched in sweat, sucking down the water. Last time I played, I was on my knees for a few minutes and just like, hey, man, like, I don't want to have a heart attack.
- [59:30]
B
Well, it's like speaking of pickleball training, you have to train endurance, strength because you have to hit the ball hard, you have to jump a lot, and you have to have quick reaction skills. So it's like everything like in. You have to train it. People like, what do you train? I'm like, everything. Because it has everything in it.
- [59:45]
A
All right, so we'll come to the training regimen a little later, but I really want to talk about now because I think people still don't understand the leagues. There were two leagues.
- [59:53]
B
Yeah, I didn't get to see that.
- [59:54]
A
So there were two leagues. They hated each other.
- [59:56]
B
They did hate each other.
- [59:56]
A
A bunch of billionaires fighting.
- [59:58]
B
Yes.
- [59:59]
A
And that was a huge thing. So what were they?
- [60:01]
B
The other league is Major League Pickleball mlp. And this is like a team format. So think they wanted to make it like basketball or football where each city or state had their own team. And that was four players, two men, two women. And their whole aspect was they think pickleball should be a team sport, not an individual sport like tennis or golf. So all these people got together and they created this major league of Pickleball. And they got all these owners, all these celebrity owners to buy into the team. So, like, I'm on the New Jersey Fives, and Gary Vee is my owner, and he's got, like, 10 million followers on Instagram. He's this, like, crazy motivational guy who's all. He's the bet, like, the best owner ever. He texts our team all the time. Like, great owner.
- [60:50]
A
He's one of the best dudes ever.
- [60:51]
B
By the way, just to be clear.
- [60:52]
A
I mean, I. He was on my show. I loved him before, you know, Love. You know, Love him even more now.
- [60:57]
B
Yeah, he's the same on, like, some people, you're like, are they the same on Instagram as they are in person? He's the exact same as on Instagram as he is in person, so he's awesome. Like you said Tom Brady, he's got a team. Like, there are other owners in the team.
- [61:08]
A
LeBron.
- [61:09]
B
Yeah, LeBron. Like, basically anybody you can think of, it's got a. Has got a major league pickleball team. And that's kind of what blew up. Major league pickleball. Because they were getting all these meteor. Meteorites. Like, they would post, like, tom Brady bought a pickleball team, and it would blow up, you know, and, oh, pickleball must be huge, because Tom Brady's got ownership of this team, whatever. So that's kind of how they made MLP really big. Whereas PPA kind of grassroot, grew it as, like, a tennis tour where they were trying to build kind of the sport around the players. Whereas MLP was trying to build it around, like, celebrity owners who were kind of investing in these leagues. Leagues. And then what happened is we played. This was before they had this big split. We'd play, like, four MLP events a year, and they'd be like, tournaments, right? And then all of a sudden, meaning.
- [62:01]
A
The teams play another T. Just like a bracket.
- [62:04]
B
It's kind of like the playoffs. We kind of had, like, four playoffs a year where everybody would be in a bracket and you'd play up whatever the finals.
- [62:10]
A
And then four players per team.
- [62:12]
B
Four players per team.
- [62:13]
A
And that means close to 20 teams.
- [62:15]
B
I think there were.
- [62:16]
A
Okay. And then. And then you have to win to win the match. Is it. You win the men play the women's.
- [62:25]
B
Play, or the men play the women play? Then you have the mixed doubles so that you have two mixed matches. And then if you're tied, because that's only four matches total. If you're tied, you play what's called a dream breaker.
- [62:35]
A
Okay?
- [62:35]
B
And this is really interesting because a guy could play a woman in singles. So it's a singles match, and each player plays four points. And you rotate. So your number one singles player goes out, plays four points. Number two goes out, plays four points. That goes all the way down through all your players. And then once the last player is gone, the number one goes again and you play to 21.
- [62:56]
A
You're listening to part one of my awesome interview with Annalee Waters, the number one pickleball player in the world who became number one in singles, doubles and mixed doubles since she's been 14 years old. Be sure to tune in next week to part two of my incredible interview with Annalee.