← In Search Of Excellence
In Search Of Excellence
Joe Kudla: How Joe Kudla Built Vuori: The Playbook for Category-Defining Athleisure | E173
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- [00:00]
Joe Kudla
Let your fear guide you. Like, let it be a power that propels you forward, not something that holds you back. My advice isn't necessarily reflecting back because my experience was so dated. I mean, I was in the college in the late 90s. But when I reflect on like today, thinking about the folks that apply for internships here, it's people that are persistent that show up. You know, the old fashioned stuff, be the first one in, be the last one out. That stuff still goes a long way with people.
- [00:27]
Randy
Philo is what I call that. Yeah, first and last out. Yeah, it will, it will succeed every time.
- [00:33]
Joe Kudla
If you practice that every day, no matter what the day brings, like, you're going to have a great career.
- [00:55]
Randy
You're listening to part one of my incredible interview with Joe Kudla, the amazing CEO of Vuori, one of the most exciting and fastest growing clothing brands in the world. Hope you love the episode. Be sure to check out part two of my episode with Joe next week. Without further ado, here's part one of my amazing interview with Joe. Welcome to In Search of Excellence. My guest today is Joe Kudla, the CEO and founder of the exciting clothing brand Vuori, one of my favorites, one of the fastest growing, most successful clothing brands in the world. Joe, welcome to my show. Thanks for being here.
- [01:24]
Joe Kudla
Thank you, Randy. Excited to be here.
- [01:26]
Randy
I want to start with your family. Your dad, Stas, was an engineer turned neuropath. Your mom was into Native American spirituality. She led wilderness trips. She ultimately became a psychologist. Tell us about your parents and how they influenced your future.
- [01:40]
Joe Kudla
You know, I think the first one was I was just so incredibly blessed to have so much love in my household. I had amazing parents. You know, I think that both of my parents never followed a conventional path. My mom, when she was a senior in high school, moved to France to be an exchange student. And then know she came back, got her diploma, graduated and then moved right back to France. And she traveled essentially across land throughout Europe, through Afghanistan all the way migrated down to Australia and worked in the outback delivering babies out in the bush, you know, when she was 18 years old. So just tells you a little bit about how she was wired, you know. And my dad was, you know, somebody that was a really analytical mind. He went to Columbia to study engineering. But then I think it was a semester before he graduated. He decided that he was more interested in the body's ability to heal itself and he, he quit school and he ended up learning about naturopathic medicine. This is before there was a diploma to get in the US he started reading books and was really fascinated. And then he ended up being in one of the first graduating classes at Bastyr University and studied acupuncture. You know, I was raised in a household where it was all about following your heart. And irrespective of whether it was kind of popular culture, it was about just doing what you were interested in, following your curiosities, irrespective of how much it paid. And that was always the currency and the value in our. In our family. It was about trying new things, following your heart, being adventurous. And I think that that really has served me well and given me permission in a lot of ways to follow a path of entrepreneurship which is largely about a relationship with the unknown.
- [03:29]
Randy
As a kid, you were shy, but you don't look shy today. Was there a moment where you kind of outgrew your shyness and said, okay, I'm evolving and getting out of my shell a little bit?
- [03:38]
Joe Kudla
I think I'm still a bit shy. You know, I would say I'm more of an introvert than an extrovert, but I definitely have had a unique relationship with confidence. Like, when I was young, I would get really fearful of things, like, you know, if I had to go somewhere that I didn't know anybody or be thrown into a social circle, like, I didn't know when I didn't know people, that was really hard for me. And my mom would always tell me that, like, let fear guide you. Like, let it be a power that propels you forward, not something that holds you back. That was, again, always something that was just ingrained in me. And so in some respects, I had to develop a relationship with discomfort, and that ultimately becomes almost like a superpower, because, like, as you become more and more comfortable in discomfort, you're more willing to say yes to things that scare you. And it becomes almost intoxicating, because when you rise up in those moments and you face that fear head on and you realize, like, what the human spirit is capable of, it's like a feeling of, like, this. We call it the rise, the shine at Vuori, but it's essentially like a feeling of, like, pride comes over you and inspiration. And so I almost got addicted to that relationship with fear. And I think ultimately, like, you know, playing sports and doing things like that, that teach you about failure and that it's okay to fail those things. Ultimate help build confidence. So I would say today, you know, I'm not exactly an extrovert, but I definitely have a much better understanding of myself, and I Think I'm more in control when those feelings come over me.
- [05:15]
Randy
A lot of things motivate us, and we have interesting moments in our life where we look around and we say, oh, my God, I want that. I want that. When I moved to la, I said, oh, my gosh, look at all these rich people. Look at all these mansions. I used to drive around Bel Air and I look at all these houses, and one day I'm gonna have a house like this. You moved to Bellevue in eighth grade, and you have said in the past you were like hillbillies in a new town. Tell us if there was a particular moment where you looked around and you saw wealth and said, hey, one night, I want to have a life like this.
- [05:44]
Joe Kudla
It almost wasn't a conscious thought, but I think subconsciously it was very motivating for me. I think being somebody who played sports at a really high level, you know, a lot of the kids on the team would show up every year with the brand new equipment, the brand new cleats, or the new gear, and I would always be playing with hand me downs or, you know, my parents would always do their best. It's not like we had nothing. They would try really hard to make sure we had what we needed. But when you compare yourself to these kids that grew up in a completely different economic bracket, it was hard not to feel like you didn't have something. And so I think deep down that was a motivator for me. I don't think it was until I got to college, where that kind of story continued. I went to the University of San Diego, where there were a lot of kids that came from privileged families, and I started getting exposure, you know, to their families, going home at spring break and visiting their families and meeting their fathers or mothers who were entrepreneurs and had built things that I started connecting the dots. And it wasn't even. It wasn't necessarily about, you know, wanting the thing as it was like, I became really interested in this idea of building a business or building a company. You know, I. I likened it a lot to, like, wow, this is a way that you can almost, like, play sports your whole life. You work with a team and set out to accomplish a goal and enlist everybody behind a vision. It was really fascinating to me. And I also, I think deep down wanted to understand what it would be like to have some disposable income and be able to buy some things and, you know, things that I maybe wasn't as exposed to as a kid.
- [07:22]
Randy
So in sports, it's fun to play Team sports. You get to know what being a team member is and a good team member. You played football and lacrosse, but you also surfed and water skied as well. And so how did sports influence your future? And what was the year that you injured your back? We'll talk about kind of how you helped cure your back later, but tell us how sports influenced your life.
- [07:44]
Joe Kudla
I mean, I think in such a big way. You. You asked me about, you know, being shy and confident. It's like when I was a kid, not only was I shy, but I had really bad learning. Dis teachers would tell my parents, like, Joe needs to learn a trade. You know, like, school is not for him. I mean, I could not sit still. It was like being in a straitjacket for me to sit through class and I couldn't read. The words would be upside down and, you know, going home and like, trying to do homework, I mean, it was literally torture. And I just. I always thought I was dumb. You know, like, I was like, mom, I'm just dumb. And my mom would tell me, you know, your Uncle Peter, who's this really, you know, awesome human, great, he's got a great career as a reporter for cbs. But he, she always say your Uncle Peter was the same way. He couldn't sit still in class. You know, he was always the class clown. He had a really hard time learning. But then something just switched on when he went to college and he ended up setting the bar and all of his classes, and he was a straight A student and he went on to have this incredible career. So my mom would always say, like, Joe, you're not done. You're a late bloomer. It's going to click for you. And she would stay the course and she was patient with me, and God bless her for that because it was true. As I got into my senior year of high school, things started to click for me. So I know that's not what you asked me about. You asked me about sports, but I mentioned this because not only was I shy, but I had really bad learning disabilities. I had a confidence issue. But sports for me was the one thing I was good at. It gave me incredible confidence. It gave me a sense of belonging. It gave me a community. Ultimately, like, those became my friends. And it gave me confidence and I learned about working with a team. And, you know, it's funny, like, when I reflect back on my journey with sports, I wasn't always the team captain because I was the guy who was there for my team members. I usually was a team captain. Because I was just good at the sport. But I think I took for granted, like the power of leadership. I didn't even understand that people maybe looked to me as a leader. And it wasn't until later in life that I looked back on that experience and I reflected on the people on the team that I actually wanted to emulate as a business leader, that maybe I didn't show up that way as a player. But looking back, I was really clear on the type of leader I wanted to be almost role modeled from some of the other people that were on my team.
- [10:07]
Randy
Back in the day, people didn't really label learning disabilities. It wasn't really a thing they do today. Were you diagnosed and were you on medication for some period of time?
- [10:17]
Joe Kudla
There was a request, I think, that I get or I consider medication. My parents were very holistic and natural, and so they chose to not medicate me. But it came with hours served. I mean, my mom would be down there with me every night doing homework, making sure my book reports were completed. I mean, sometimes I think she even erred on the side of doing the book reports for me a little bit. But she got me through. She got. She ushered me through and held my hand until it clicked and I was able to do it on my own.
- [10:55]
Mentor/Advisor
I hope you're enjoying this video so far, but before we jump back in, I want to know if you've ever thought about what you need to do to reach the next level of success in your life. Over the last 25 years, I've been an advisor to more than 50 companies. I've invested nearly 100, including Google, Lyft and Seagate. And I also co founded a company that today is worth more than $15 billion. I've been incredibly blessed in my journey and at this stage in my life, I want to give back. I want to share the lessons I've learned so you can reach incredible success way faster than I did in my own journey. I've learned that right mentor is a massive advantage to achieving our goals. I'm hugely passionate about mentoring others, and I'm looking for a few hungry entrepreneurs who are excited to take action on their journey to incredible future success. So if that's you, I've got an opportunity. In the description of this video, there's a link where you can apply to work with me. All you need to do is answer a few simple questions. And if you're a good fit, my team will reach out so we can.
- [11:44]
Randy
Build a game plan together.
- [11:45]
Mentor/Advisor
All right, now let's get back to the video.
- [11:51]
Randy
There'S people listening to the show, and it's a common thing. People are embarrassed and people do call them stupid. What's your advice to all those people out there who have not received help or are afraid to go to a doctor and are being essentially bullied for being called stupid and not really getting it like most of the other kids do?
- [12:08]
Joe Kudla
Look, my heart goes out to you because I've been there. I've been in that position. I can still literally, at a cellular level, feel what it was like to feel dumb. But my, My advice would just be that we all learn and develop and grow at different paces. You know, for me, I was a late bloomer. I see it in one of my kids today. I can tell she's going to develop a little bit slower. But I know there's a brilliant mind in there. It just clicks for different people in different ways. And we all have different learning styles. And so for some of us, the way that we are taught is just not the way that we learn, and that's totally okay. As a matter of fact, when I look at my social group, you know, I naturally gravitated towards a lot of other guys that were wired like me in college. You know, maybe not the best students, but. But had a lot of energy and just wanted to very, very much in their physical bodies when they were young, and they just didn't have the patience to sit and learn in the same way. But a lot of those guys are brilliant entrepreneurs. They have thriving careers, they're great leaders. They have incredible passion and determination. And so sometimes what's perceived at one moment in our life as a setback or a challenge, an obstacle, turns out to be your biggest asset a little bit later in life.
- [13:28]
Randy
Million percent. Despite the learning difficulties, you, as you said, you went to San Diego for school on a partial scholarship. So how did you get a scholarship having learned learning disabilities?
- [13:39]
Joe Kudla
Well, like I said, you know, my mom helped me maintain pretty average grades.
- [13:44]
Randy
She pushed you every day. Like, she'd sit there and she'd read with you and Joe, you gotta do your homework because you were all over the place.
- [13:49]
Joe Kudla
Yeah, every day. I mean, all I wanted to do is be outside running around playing sports. I mean, I would. I was the type of guy that would sit there and throw my lacrosse ball against the wall for three hours after school, if you let me. You know, I was, I was just a very active, very devoted to. To sport. But yeah, my mom would always make sure my homework was done, that, you know, it was done right. She's incredibly patient and you know, she was a single mom. My parents split and so I was predominantly by a single mom. And she worked as a therapist till, you know, sometimes eight, nine o' clock at night and then would come home and sit with me and do my homework until I was essentially falling asleep at the table. But she just had such an incredible devotion to us kids. It was really inspiring. I went to the University of San Diego. I was recruited out of high school to play football at a variety of different levels. Didn't want to play football in college, but the University of San Diego doesn't give football scholarships. But they connect athletes with student aid through the football program. They recruited me and offered me an opportunity to come down and play football for the school.
- [14:53]
Randy
What position?
- [14:53]
Joe Kudla
I would have played safety. I was a running back and a safety, but I was probably higher probability of playing in college as a safety. I came down and visited the school, ultimately decided I'd rather play lacrosse, not football. But they offered me the, the same package to come down.
- [15:10]
Randy
Accounting. There's not something that excites most people. In fact, only 1 to 1.2% of all college graduates major in accounting. You have a great personality. Why accounting? And would you recommend it today to someone over computers, AI, software, programming, business? Where would it rank?
- [15:30]
Joe Kudla
So to answer the first part of the question, I, I was good at accounting, I was good at numbers. So one of the first things that clicked for me was math. And I, I quickly started being, you know, I always set the curve in our, in our math classes and then I introductory Introduction to Accounting class. And I just naturally understood it. How debits and credits have to balance out how the accounting cycle works. And so a teacher actually that I really loved asked me after class to stay back and he was like, have you ever thought about accounting as a career? And he walked me through it and he walked me through that. Like you can essentially get an internship with these big firms and then you can get a job going into your senior year. You can already have your job established, you know, really great starting salary, great benefits, and that it can set you up for a great career. And that was really motivating for me because again, like, I didn't grow up with a lot of money in the house. The idea of having a great paying job with a big, you know, global accounting firm was, was really exciting for me. I did an internship with Ernst and Young, decided to take a job with them for when I graduated.
- [16:32]
Randy
Let's freeze it there for one second before we get into the Next story, which is fascinating. What was it like as a intern and what's your advice to all the college graduates today where internships are harder to get because of AI ruining a lot of rot, taking away a lot of these jobs. Students today are very struggling big time to get internships.
- [16:51]
Joe Kudla
Yeah, getting an internship was transformational for me because I got exposure to what the corporate world was like, what what having a job was like as a junior in college. And I was fortunate to have a program at USD where they made those introductions and connected you with those firms. In today's world, I recognize it's a lot more challenging. There aren't as many of those opportunities if you're not in a highly specialized major. Accounting is great because it provides you a structure into these CPA firms, which is a really good way to start your career. It's almost like getting your MBA straight out of school. In the real world. My advice isn't necessarily reflecting back because my experience was so dated. I mean I was in the college in the late 90s. But when I reflect on like today, thinking about the folks that apply for internships here, it's people that are persistent that show up, you know, that establish a relationship in the physical world and come in with an opportunity, you know, offering to really do anything in the organization. I find that though that type of approach is typically the one that gets people in the door. When you're an intern, it's not about what you're doing. It doesn't matter if you're like opening mail. It's just getting exposure to an industry that you're interested in and building relationships, that's your goal. It's not about the actual work and what you're going to learn. It's about the people you meet and getting exposure because it might spark something within you.
- [18:17]
Randy
100%. I've had a program for many, many years. Passion life is free me to mentor people hired, I think six or seven full time former interns, even though we didn't have a job when they started. But as an intern, if you absolutely kill it, you can get a job anywhere.
- [18:30]
Joe Kudla
Yeah.
- [18:30]
Randy
By the way, it doesn't matter if a company has laid off 10,000 people, if you're that person and you do the work and you work hardest and come up with something great. And it's also been very fun as a mentor where thankfully I'm in a position today where I've made a lot of friends and connections throughout the years. So if I can send an email to the CEO of Goldman Sachs David Solomon, that this intern killed it here. It could sometimes break the tie.
- [18:53]
Joe Kudla
Yeah.
- [18:53]
Randy
And it's just, it's very, very rewarding.
- [18:55]
Joe Kudla
Yeah, absolutely. It's amazing how a willingness to work hard, having a great attitude, showing up, kind of the good old fashioned stuff, it really makes a huge difference.
- [19:05]
Randy
What's one story of an intern that you've heard in the past, either here or somewhere else, where you said that intern did something so amazing crazy that they were hired?
- [19:14]
Joe Kudla
I think you're putting me on the spot here. I don't know if I have a great example that I would point to. I have people in mind that like, I don't have like a, a story like that, but again, it's just doubling down on people that have shown up with a smile and they just do the work with a smile, you know, and they just are always present, they're there, you're working hard. Those are the people that always end up finding the roles in the, in the organization.
- [19:41]
Randy
The generation today is a lot different than when I, I was growing up. I mean, I'm 56, you're younger than me, but attitude is everything. And a lot of internships, you're doing shit work, right? Everyone wants excitement, everyone wants a company to go public or, you know, craziness and be on the forefront of everything. But it's all about blocking and tackling and showing up, even if you're just doing shit work. Great attitude. Every day, walking with a smile. How are you? I'm phenomenal. Even though you may not be phenomenal, you know, you're in a work environment and that's how it goes.
- [20:13]
Joe Kudla
One of the biggest things that I think people fall into, the biggest traps that people fall into, is thinking too much about the end result. I think it's great to have a North Star and be working towards something, but it can't overpower you. Sometimes you don't know where the course of life is going to take you. When I reflect on my own journey, it didn't matter if I was folding T shirts, my first job ever when I was in high school, or it was, you know, my first job at Ernst and Young. Showing up, working hard, like being committed to the work that's in front of you that day and making it your priority to do an excellent job, show up with a great attitude, you know, the old fashioned stuff, be the first one in, be the last one out. That stuff still goes a long way with people.
- [20:55]
Randy
Philo is what I call that.
- [20:57]
Joe Kudla
Yeah.
- [20:58]
Randy
First in, last out. Yeah, it will, it will succeed.
- [21:00]
Joe Kudla
Every time, it always succeeds. You know, people just love. They're drawn to that energy of devotion. And so, like, you don't always know where things are going to go in your career, but if you practice that every day, no matter what the day brings, like, you're going to have a great career. It might be in a different industry. It might be doing something that you didn't even see coming. You didn't understand that doorway was going to open to you. But, like, when you show up every day with a great attitude and work hard, ultimately the world, the universe, will conspire to, like, help you on your path. It sounds hokey, but I believe it wholeheartedly to be true.
- [21:36]
Randy
So talking about a different path, you pull any magazine cover today of female magazines like Vogue or Harper's Bazaar, whatever it may be. And supermodels were discovered by typically, someone going up to them in a shopping mall when they were younger, 14, come do a photo shoot. You had a strange turn. And the research here conflicts. Either some woman saw you walking out of the ocean with your shirt off in La Jolla saying, hey, man, you should be a model, or you went to a casting call and did that. What. What's the story there? And how did you become a model?
- [22:12]
Joe Kudla
Yeah, so both of them are true. It was my senior year of high school and. Or, excuse me, my senior of college. And I was surfing in La Jolla, and sure enough, I was walking to my car, and a woman approached me and asked me if I'd ever considered modeling. And I kind of chuckled because wasn't interested in it. But she. She told me that her son was. Was working with this local talent manager in La Jolla. You know, he spent the last year just traveling around Europe. And she's like, even if you did it for three months, been transformational for my son, he's loved it. She's like, can I just introduce you to his manager? And so I said, sure, I'll, you know, I'll take a meeting because, you know, here I was a senior. I had already gotten my job, which started in the fall. I graduated in May, but I had until October. So I had five months off, and I was either going to wait tables or figure something out to do, but I was like, well, if I could go to Europe, I had never traveled. I'd never been overseas. And so this sounded like an intriguing opportunity. So. So anyway, I took a meeting with this guy, and he just said, look, I'll pay for everything. We're going to take some photos. I'd love to share them with this agency. We have this group coming from Milan in a couple months. They're going to do a casting. They're going to meet a lot of kids from San Diego, and they're going to pick a handful of them to go back and work for their agency in Milan for the summer fashion shows. So he was like, it can't hurt. So anyway, I took some photos, I went to the casting. I met this agency. I think I made some little jokes, and we hit it off, and they liked me, and so they selected me as one of the folks from San Diego to go to Milan. And so, yeah, that was the start of this whole new chapter. And, like, that was a moment in my life I never would have thought would have completely changed the course of my life.
- [23:48]
Randy
So we need to get some of those photos when we post a clip for the show for sure. So I'm gonna. You still have some photos? I'm sure you have the photos.
- [23:55]
Joe Kudla
I'm sure there's some in a. In a dusty box.
- [23:58]
Randy
In my dusty box. We gotta dust off the box. A lot of people think modeling is so sexy. My wife. Wife grew up in Fresno. People came up to her when she was 14. You should model. And her parents owned a clothing store, so she modeled for the clothing store. But she went to business school at usc and her parents said, we want you to get that degree first, and then you can model if that's what you choose to do afterwards. She ended up working on Wall street, and then she modeled on the side. But modeling is not all sexy. You're sitting there, staying in shitty motels. You're going in front of people, Joe, look like this or look like this. Turn this way. People are inspecting you, and maybe one person, maybe five people looking at your body or your face, you're getting rejected. The rejection rate sometimes is 99%. So tell us your experience as a model. Was that what it was like? And then how rejection influenced your future?
- [24:49]
Joe Kudla
Yeah, I mean, you said it spot on. I think just to hit the rejection point first, you know, it. It really teed me up for a career of rejection. And I think, you know, it's like baseball. You know, you bat 300, you're an all star. You know, it's like kind of the same type of theme with, like, modeling or sales or entrepreneurship. Like, you're going to fail 90% of the time, but that 10% can create a lot of value. Modeling was the first time. It was just, like, constant rejection. And it was a bit of an Ego bruise. But like, ultimately you develop a thick skin. And that set me up for a career ultimately where I tried out sales for a while and we can talk about that at another time. But, but I do think it was incredibly empowering for that reason. Modeling was definitely not glamorous. Like, you know, I, I got my diploma, I took a red eye to Milan, I went to the agency, I still had all my bags and they were like, you need to be at these castings today. Go. Here's a map. This is like before you had smartphones. So I'm wandering around Milan, it's 100 degrees, I'm pouring sweat and I have to go and find these like addresses. And you'd show up and there'd be a line of 100 people out a door and you'd sit in the blazing sun just waiting for somebody. You'd go up, you'd present your portfolio, they'd flip through it and they'd say thank you for coming. And you'd leave and you'd go to the next one. And you would do that five, sometimes ten times a day. And then your agent would call randomly out of nowhere and be like, hey, you're, you're confirmed for this job tomorrow. You wouldn't even know which casting it was, but you'd book some job and then, you know, you'd travel somewhere. Whatever the job entailed, you'd do the job. Oftentimes very little pay. You're living in a little model apartment with, you know, 15 other guys from all around the world. They're all different ages and backgrounds and you know, it's no luxury lifestyle, but it was like, you know, I was 21 years old at the time. I was meeting people from around the world, I was traveling on the weekends. It was an incredible experience. What I didn't realize at the time is that I was being exposed to an industry that was very intriguing to me, that would stay with me after I quit the modeling. It was a part of me now that, that, that I couldn't shake and ultimately led me to my career.
- [27:04]
Randy
What was your first job, what was your best job and what was the lowest paying job to the highest paying.
- [27:10]
Joe Kudla
Job as a model?
- [27:11]
Randy
As a model, there weren't a lot.
- [27:12]
Joe Kudla
Of high paying jobs, you know, but I would say the first job that I booked was working as a fit model for Dolce and Gabbana. All of the underwear for Dolce and Gabbana that they were going to release in that future season, I was the fit model for. So I was Doing all that, and then that some people.
- [27:32]
Randy
People don't know what that is. So explain what a fit model is.
- [27:34]
Joe Kudla
So a fit model, I'm proud to say I'm still the fit model here at Vuori today. So a job that stayed with me all these years, but essentially a fit model. It's like when you go to a tailor to get fitted for a suit, you are the person wearing the suit. The tailor adjusts the fit of the garment to fit your body. You know, if you have certain types of measurements, you make a good fit model because you represent, you know, a certain fit that the designer is going for. And so they fit the garment to you and then they commercialize it and sell it.
- [28:04]
Randy
So what was the craziest moment you had at a moment? My wife was a model. She still does some modeling. We know a lot of friends. When I was single, I learned a little bit about the modeling industry, including from one supermodel who has crazy stories.
- [28:18]
Joe Kudla
Yeah.
- [28:18]
Randy
Do you have any crazy stories of when you were modeling?
- [28:22]
Joe Kudla
I don't have anything that, like, is. Is probably, you know, that I don't have a story that you're probably looking for that's earth shattering. But. But I do remember the first big fashion show that I booked. I was walking down the Runway, and there was this really popular rapper at the time named Ja Rule. I don't know if you remember Ja Rule. Yeah, but Ja Rule was rapping on the stage as we're walking up and down and there's champagne everywhere. And it was just this huge party environment. And I just remember, like, thinking to myself, like, how did I get here? You know, like, where am I? So I had a lot of moments like that, but nothing. Yeah, nothing too dramatic.
- [29:02]
Mentor/Advisor
I hope you're enjoying this video so far. But before we jump back in, I want to know if you've ever thought about what you need to do to reach the next level of success in your life. Over the last 25 years, I've been an advisor to more than 50 companies. I've invested nearly 100, including Google, lift and Seagate. And I also co founded a company that today is worth more than $15 billion. I've been incredibly blessed in my journey and at this stage in my life, I want to give back. I want to share the lessons I've learned so you can reach incredible success way faster than I did in my own journey. I've learned that having the right mentor is a massive advantage to achieving our goals. I'm hugely passionate about mentoring others. I'm Looking for a few hungry entrepreneurs who are excited to take action on their journey to incredible future success. So if that's you, I've got an opportunity. In the description of this video, there's a link where you can apply to work with me. All you need to do is answer a few simple questions, and if you're a good fit, my team will reach out so we can build a game plan together. All right, now let's get back to the video.
- [29:54]
Randy
What lesson or lessons did you learn from modeling that no business degree would have taught you?
- [30:00]
Joe Kudla
You? Well, I think it's. It's the difference between knowledge and wisdom. Like, you know, you can take a marketing class and understand that brands tell stories and that you have to have, like, a communications framework for your brand. But then when you actually work as part of the system, you actually see the cameras, the photographers, the environments, so you understand the work that went into creating the image of a brand. And then when you see it come together with copy and the story around it, you were a part of bringing this marketing message or this marketing asset to life. And so you can be taught that in a textbook. But for me, being actually a part of it was incredibly empowering because I started to understand, like, oh, this photographer you could actually hire for this amount of money, and, like, you just need an environment like this. And this is how the clothes get brought onto set, and this is how the hair and makeup work. And it's nothing transformational, but it was just this idea of embodied wisdom. You were a part of it, so you have a familiarity with it, and then it becomes more empowering that you think to yourself, like, I could do this. I think that was, like, the biggest thing that that chapter of my life gave me was I didn't love being in front of the camera. I was not a natural model, but I got exposure to designers and how they worked with textiles to create garments and how they would adjust and pin the garments to make them fit right, and then how those garments would be used to create. Used in a photo shoot to create an image for a brand and how they would promote the product. And I think all of that was just fascinating to me. I was like, I always had loved textiles. I loved the feeling of product, and I loved how, you know, my mother was a psychologist. For me, it was like, there was a bit of psychology in there in, like, how you can connect with an audience through a product. That was fascinating to me. And so those were the things that I took with me and ultimately became an itch that I Had to scratch in my career.
- [32:00]
Randy
A lot of us take jobs just for a stepping stone. You do two years modeling, come back ey earn a cpa. Ultimately you laughed. You said you weren't passionate about what you were doing. How important should passion be a motivation as we start our career or continue our career? And what if you're not passionate about what you're doing?
- [32:20]
Joe Kudla
Look, I think it's a, it's a double edged sword, I think in, in a lot of respects. Sometimes just getting in and getting great experience is a great way to start and there's, there should be no shame in that. You know, everybody today wants to be living out the tip of the spear, most aspirational, like perfect aligned thing that they're doing every day. And sometimes that's not a reality, but that can be something that maybe you don't see how that leads to the next thing. But again, if you show up with devotion, it's not about what you do, it's about how you do it. And that's something we talk about at Vuoria all the time. It's like leading with that craftsman's mentality, like doing meaningful work, making a great product. Whether it's a jacket that we're making or it's like you manage a process or you, you reconcile accounts. Whatever you do, bringing passion and dedication and devotion and a positive attitude to your work, it can be incredibly rewarding when you look at your work as a devotion to something bigger than just that one thing. You know, for me, that was always the highest value. When I got into my career, I wasn't incredibly passionate about being an accountant, but it was a incredible learning opportunity that led me to my next thing. And I actually didn't find my passion in my career until, gosh, I was in my 30s. So, you know, about 10 years in is when I really started to find a role and a rhythm where I knew that my passion could become a career.
- [33:50]
Randy
So let's talk about the start of your career in the clothing business while you were at ey, like so many of us who want to go into different field, sometimes it's not great to leave your job until you have a new job. So you experiment things. You started a women's apparel business with an ex girlfriend. It's called Sammy Jo Jo. Your first name? Sammy. Her middle name. What was the experience like? Yeah. Why did you stop?
- [34:12]
Joe Kudla
So I had come back from Milan and got my job, begged, begged for my job back with Ernst and Young. And so they took me a couple years late. But I started in their audit practice. You know, I started identifying more as, like, a creative. Like, I'd had this experience in Milan, and I'm not just an accountant. Like, there's a creative in there, but I didn't know how to connect with that creative. I'd never taken an art class or, or never been a designer or never. You know, I just. I was always a jock or an athlete. I met a woman who was graduating from design school. We were getting serious, and instead of her going and taking a job in LA and us being apart, I just said, I just had this experience modeling. Like, I would love to start a line. Why don't you design the clothes? I'll help you with the business side. You know, I'll use my $45,000 a year salary at Ernst and Young to fund the business very naively. So we decided that we. We would start our first. First line together, and we called it Sammy Jo. And it was an incredible experience. You know, we're very ignorant. We didn't really understand the ins and outs of the business at the time. But, you know, we would go to LA on the weekends, and we would work with jobbers that had excess fabric laying around.
- [35:19]
Randy
Right.
- [35:20]
Joe Kudla
So we would buy that excess fabric, and then we would work with local pattern makers here in San Diego to make a pattern.
- [35:27]
Randy
She would.
- [35:27]
Joe Kudla
She would sketch a skirt or a dress or a top. We would take it to the pattern maker. They would help us make a pattern. Then we would take it down to a cutter on our lunch break, make it into panels, and take all these cut panels of fabric down to a sewer. Yeah, and the sewer would make it up. And then we would have a sample. We would do a fitting with that. You know, we. We learned how to adjust the pattern and. And then we got a collection put together, and then we would drive up and down the coast. And this is before you could sell on the Internet. And we would sell to these little boutiques up and down the coast. And those boutiques were like feeding grounds into, like, the next tier of distribution, which would be like a Barney's. And then if you got into a bar, you could then get the attention of Nordstrom. And it was kind of like the path that you would go down to build a clothing brand. And so we were on that path, and it was an incredible learning experience. But we quickly learned after a couple years that while it was really cute stuff, we were just, like, running on fumes. And we didn't have the investment. I don't think we were actually set up to really scale with the way that we were managing production. But I learned a lot about, like, okay, if I was to do this again, these are the things I would do differently. And so I ended up taking a lot of those lessons into my next venture.
- [36:38]
Randy
We have two kids, 8 and 5. And my wife, as I mentioned, her parents owned a clothing store, so she would help pick the designs for the next season. You know, she's cool and has good fashion style. And so, year and a half after we met, she started clothing line called Madtown Collection. It was simple, silk blouses, skirts. And I'm going to get it all wrong, and she's going to yell at me for not explaining it properly. But like you, we went downtown to buy remnant fabric, I guess it's what it's called. And we go to these warehouses and, you know, just to give people a sense of what we're talking about. These are large, cavernous warehouses. And she was buying silk. So they're silk rolls. Yeah. And we're basically going through 500 silk rolls to figure out what fabric to use. Hiring a pattern maker, you have to go and figure out who do you recommend? Who do you recommend? They charge you by pattern for those people who don't recommend it. And then in all of my brilliance and toughness as a good businessman, I got on the phone with one of the pattern makers and, you know, you pay for each pattern they make. Right. And so you can have a package of five. And I'm just talking about this because most people don't know what's involved when you start a clothing brand. And so I, I get on the phone with this woman who. It's hard to find the right person. Right. At each stage, there's a different person who's right for where you are in your production cycle. So there's not a lot of people who want to work with somebody new. Maybe there's three or four that we got recommendations for. You go, you meet with them in person. So Madison does all this work, and I get involved. I'm the business person. So I call the woman up on the phone and say, hey, you know, why does this cost so much money? Will you do it for? I don't know. I made it up 30% less. And she basically called my wife and said, hey, man, I don't want to work with you. Like, this is. This is not business. I said, okay, I'm out of the business. Man said, okay, you're not part of this anymore. But it's, it's, it's tough you know, it was a solo project that she did. She did all the labels herself. I ran and it was hard to get into stores. You basically find influencer people who send things to celebrities hoping that they wear your product. Yeah, the way it works is most people keep them for themselves and don't give them to the celebrities. You know, that's a whole thing. It's expensive to pay for these people. Ultimately, she got into Planet Blue, which is a great store based in Los Angeles. They expanded into seven stores. They ultimately went bankrupt, sold their private equity firm and then we had kids. So it's kind of on hold right now and we'll see what happens. But I've lived that experience and it's fun. She'd be up to one in the morning doing the barcodes and to get into a store, there's a 20 page questionnaire and it's, it's crazy. I mean, I don't know how she was able to figure this out on her site. She built her own website and this was, was 10 years ago. Today you can build a website on chat GPT in, in one hour, Right. So you leave ey to then go to a staffing firm called Vaco. You open the San Diego office and went from zero to $18 million in a period of two or three years and ultimately weren't satisfied with that. Even though you had made good money, how much money had you made at that point? How much money were you making? And what's your advice to everyone out there today who feels they have golden handcuff and say, gosh, I'm making this much money. Does it depend on where you are in your career, family? What other factors?
- [39:56]
Joe Kudla
I left Ernst and Young and I wanted to work as a consultant in accounting because I could make $45 an hour. I was making $45,000 a year. I could make $90,000 a year as a consultant because of Sarbanes Oxley at the time. Right. So I met with this firm, Robert Half. And the folks that I met there, they were going to be the people that helped me get consulting work. They were like brokers that had relationships with companies and then they would recruit people like me and I would go out and do consulting work and I would make some money and then they would make some money and they would build a company. Right. When I met them, they were like, you have a personality for this. You know, you understand our space. This is a booming industry. Why don't you come in and work with us doing sales? And this is the first time I was like, sales, like, frightening by sales. You know, the idea of picking up the phone and making cold calls was like, definitely not how I was wired. But again, I was like, well, they kind of told me, hey, you can make like over a hundred thousand dollars a year doing this and have, like, a pretty flexible schedule. And here I was thinking, well, flexibility, more money. I can put more money into Sammy Joe. And at this time, I'm thinking about my next clothing project. It was always about how much time and how much money so that I can go build a clothing company out of the garage. That was my criteria. I met them, I went to work for them, and not shortly after I started. We were all working together. We had really good harmony between the three of us, us. And we decided, let's leave and start our own company doing this. And so we ended up finding Vaco. They had a few offices in the Southeast, but we went to them and said, we would like to open an office here in San Diego. And we worked out the economics. We leveraged their brand and their. Their. Their marketing collateral, but we essentially had to build the business from scratch. That's what we did. We built an awesome company and we had a ton of fun. And we went. We were in a space like the recruiting and consulting industry was a bit like a commodity at the time. There was of firms doing this. There's a lot of, like, need for Sarbanes Oxley consultants. But we did other things, too. We helped companies with SEC reporting and systems implementations and all kinds of stuff, but it was really competitive. And what we did, what we learned from the folks in the Southeast that had started Vaco out of Tennessee was we learned, like, what building a true community was in business. They had so much fun with their clients. And, like, they. They built an environment where the CFO from this company would go to an event and they would connect and see the CFO and this old CEO, and they just. They created environments for people to come together and share in meaningful experiences. And so we brought that ethos to San Diego and we came into a competitive market and we built the. The leader in our category. We built an awesome company. We had a couple hundred employees, and this is the first time in my life where I was. I was, you know, making pretty good money.
- [42:44]
Randy
What does that mean? How much?
- [42:46]
Joe Kudla
You know, I was probably making, like, on a good year, $500,000 a year as a kid, who was. What was I? 26, you know, something like that back then. So crushing it.
- [42:57]
Randy
Yeah, crushing it.
- [42:57]
Joe Kudla
I'm doing great. And I've got an equity in the company that's building as well. You know, I was taking vacations, I was playing golf with clients. I was building this. It was like intoxicating building this company. We had a few hundred employees. I think at our height, we were the fast, third fastest grow private company in San Diego. It was an amazing journey. But again, like, I just had this part. There was this thing inside me that was like, I think you're a creative, actually, you understand the business and that's been really valuable. But I think there's a creative in there. And if you don't express yourself creatively, I'm not sure you're ever going to be fully fulfilled in your career. And so it was incredibly empowering because. Because for the first time, I had made some money, I had bought a house. And I realized as soon as I didn't have to think about money anymore, I was like, oh, this actually isn't all that it's cracked up to be, you know, like this. For me, for me personally, it was like the values of my family and like everything just flooded back and was like, this isn't ultimately what your life is supposed to be about. And it's. It's not about showing up every day for a paycheck. It's about, you know, what is your contribution to the world? Like, what is it that you're really here to do? And so I went through a really tough chapter of my life where I was asking myself some really hard questions. I was kind of down and out. I had gone through a divorce. The woman that I started, that first clothing company with, her, and I got married. We ended up getting a divorce. I just was like feeling a little flat in my life. I felt like I wasn't attracting the right partner. But really it wasn't about the partner. It was really about me and how I was feeling inside. And so that was during the time that was I. I asked myself a lot of tough questions. I started practicing yoga. I developed a mindfulness practice and started meditating. I was reading. I was in a period of self discovery. And that led me into this whole new chapter of my life.
- [44:54]
Randy
Right. So let's go a step back. I think I have a creative sense as well. So in college, I walk into the University of Michigan, Go blue, these stores, and I heard you signed Colson Loveland as one of your ambassadors. Amazing. Yeah. Huge fan. And I walk into the bookstores, I say, you know, I don't know, I could make something better. So I create, created. Just do it copies, would just do it on it with better logos, tilted, rode to the final four. And I sold these door to door. Got kicked out of every dorm, out one floor and the next floor and I sold a lot of T shirts, making money that way. You started a T shirt company called Vori. We'll call it V1 Vori with a designer named Chad.
- [45:35]
Joe Kudla
Yep.
- [45:35]
Randy
Talk to us about that experience and how you got into your first store. Do you remember what your first T shirt was?
- [45:41]
Joe Kudla
Oh man. Well, I have some of them here on the wall. So these are all reminders of like where we've been as a brand and you know, where like this journey began for me. But yeah, Chad was a really talented artist and you know, again I was like, I can take this money that I'm making and I'll fund the business. We'll take your designs and you know, your creative idea buy and let's build premium graphic T shirts. And this is at the time when brands like Ed Hardy and Affliction were really popular, you know, early kind of 2005 time frame. And people were selling T shirts for $70 in these high end boutiques.
- [46:22]
Randy
Crazy.
- [46:23]
Joe Kudla
Yeah, crazy.
- [46:24]
Randy
Special cotton.
- [46:25]
Joe Kudla
Yeah, special cotton. Unique art, you know, big graphics were really popular. And so we decided to launch a business that would be a platform for humanitarians and environmental and people doing really cool work in the world. So every shirt that we made was a collaboration with a different humanitarian or environmentalist or musician that had a cool, compelling message that we wanted to platform. And so yeah, we, we jumped in and I took all those lessons that I had learned from Sammy Joe and said, I'm not going to make 15 panel chiffon dresses, but I'm going to do really simple men's T shirts and hoodies and sweatshirts and yeah, so we did the same thing. We managed all the production ourselves. We made it all Los Angeles and San Diego. I think the first meaningful store that we got into was Lisa Klein in West Hollywood. And Lisa Klein, there was a, there was a, there was kits in, there was Lisa Klein and there were Fred Siegel and these were like the boutiques. These, they, they were like the cool boutiques and if you got into them, it meant something. And then perhaps a Nordstrom would pay attention and eventually you get pick up by a bigger, bigger account. It was an incredible chapter. But, but we fell on very difficult times with the financial crisis and my business at Veco was going through a tough time during that financial crisis and my partner ultimately decided that he wanted to travel and he Left the company. And so I was sitting there with a lot of T shirts and a lot of money, pretty much my life savings at the time put into this business. And really all that was there of any value was potentially like the name Vior. And so ultimately we decided to part ways and close the business. I would continue on just selling T shirts to friends and, you know, kind of out of the back of the car style. But it was the second, you know, quote unquote failure in the clothing business. And that one really left me heartbroken because it was at a time where I was going through a lot personally. I really wanted it to work. It was a beautiful intention for a business. And that was the one where I really started asking myself, like, maybe, maybe this is just a dream. And. And it's not supposed to. Supposed to be my reality.
- [48:39]
Randy
I like to take what happened next step by step. We'll talk about going to a party and that being life changing in a minute. But you've mentioned before, and you've talked about this in different podcasts that you went through, you broke up in a toxic relationship. You've touched upon that a little bit, but you were partying and drinking way too much. Can you go into the details there? How bad was it? Did you go to AA and have a real problem? And did you ever show up to work one day just totally drunk or hungover?
- [49:07]
Joe Kudla
No, there was none of that. I've always been very functional. I would just say that, you know, it's just that. That same spirit, you know, we graduate from these universities and a lot of times that you're just learning how to party and get through class, you know, and then it was kind of a continuation of that where I just was like, going out all the time, drinking on the weekends. Takes you a couple days during the week to feel better again. And then before you know it, it's Friday again and you're going out and partying. I mean, this is pretty. A lot of young people live this lifestyle, so it's not that I was doing anything ultimately super destructive.
- [49:41]
Randy
Yeah.
- [49:42]
Joe Kudla
It was more just like inside I didn't feel good. Like, I didn't feel like I was on a path to building something or creating something or like attracting the right partner. There was always this like. I don't know, it's like a depth. And I think this is goes back to like, the way that we're raised. You know, I was raised with a very, very spiritual mother. Everything had meaning, everything had depth. I felt like I was living a little bit of a superficial existence, you know, and it's nothing. I wasn't doing anything ultimately wrong or destructive or I wasn't developing a drug habit or everything was under control. But I just felt in the subtle that like the way I was living my life wasn't aligned with the path that I was supposed to be on and it was eating at my stomach.
- [50:27]
Randy
Soul, we all have life changing moments. You went to a party that changed your life forever. Can you tell us about the person you met and what happened that night?
- [50:36]
Joe Kudla
Yeah. So again, it was like the fourth of July. I'm at a party in Laguna beach, you know, I'm with my best friends, we're having a great time, partying. And this woman, her name's Lynette and.
- [50:47]
Randy
She'S never mentioned her name before ever. In any show.
- [50:49]
Joe Kudla
Yeah.
- [50:50]
Randy
So her name's Lynette.
- [50:51]
Joe Kudla
Her name's Lynette. She came up to me and she just said, hey, can I tell you, can I talk to you for a second? I said, sure. You know, and she said, you know, I just see something very clearly and I just need to tell you this is before I knew she was an intuitive or, you know, I didn't even really believe in that kind of stuff. But she, she said, you know, you were raised by a very special mother and she ingrained these really deep values in you and that, that your upbringing was very unique. But you've gotten away from your values and you're doing something in your career that you want deeply to be your full time job. It's a project or a side hustle. It's something. And she's like, and I just want you to know that this thing that you're working on is going to be huge. And she goes, I don't know why, I just am seeing this for you. But, but like it's going to be, she's like, you're going to be speaking in front of thousands of people telling the story of this thing that you built. And I was like, I'm thinking in my head like, vori, you know, because this is like, I'm still at this point in my career trying to make VUORY work. She said, but here's the thing. She goes, it's not with your current partner. She's like, there's going to be a completely change in the way that this is organized. And she goes, and the only way that this is going to happen happen is she's like, you need to get connected back with your values and the way that you were raised at this Point, like, I'm bawling. You know, I'm at this party, my friends are looking at, they're like, why? What is going on? Like, who is this woman talking to Joan? Why is he crying? It was like she just spoke truth to me that I knew and I was feeling deeply, but I didn't fully connect the dots. And so she goes on to tell me that, you know, she is an intuitive, that she works with executives and people to help them. Them help guide them, whether it's a big decision or it's their career or whatever it is. And she was like, I. I don't even need. I don't want you as a client. But I just, I feel like for whatever reason, I've been sent here and I'm my, Like, I'm in service to helping you. And I just was like, so incredibly moved by this experience. And the next day, I got out of a toxic relationship and I went to my first yoga class and I said, I'm not going to drink. Drink for a while. And I just said, like, I don't know what the. I don't know what the future holds for me, but I am going to focus on clarity. Clarity being the ultimate currency. At that point in my life. I just wanted to get clear. And I knew I couldn't do it if I was going out on the weekends and partying and staying in this vicious cycle. I was like, I'm going to break the cycle. So I started going to yoga. I started reading books, I stayed in on the weekends. I didn't have a girlfriend. I didn't date anybody for. For a year. I just was like, I just want to get clear. And it was that period of my life that everything started to fall into, into, into picture. Like, I started to see a path for me and I saw a path for Viori to bring it back as a different company. And so, yeah, it was incredibly transformational. It was a. I mean, I don't know what I would be doing if it wasn't for that meeting on that night.
- [54:10]
Randy
You stole a question that was coming at the end, but we'll come back to it at the end so you can think about the answer to that question. But we'll go back to.
- [54:18]
Joe Kudla
You're.
- [54:19]
Randy
You're working on Viora. You want to make it work. We'll go back to 2012, 2013. Tell us about Chris Miller. And was there a moment where you said to yourself where you guys had the aha moment? That's it?
- [54:31]
Joe Kudla
Yeah. So Chris was. He became a good Friend through yoga. So I started practicing yoga.
- [54:36]
Randy
Tell people who Chris Miller was.
- [54:38]
Joe Kudla
Yeah, so Chris Miller is one of the best pool skaters of all time. He still, like, if you. If you talk to people that know the history of skateboarding, Chris Miller's name will come up as, you know, up there with Tony Hawk as kind of one of the best to ever do it. While he was a pro skater, he started a footwear brand. Well, he started a company called Planet Earth, which did clothing. And it was a small company. But then he ended up starting. He got, I think Planet Earth was acquired by K2 Sports. With K2, he started audio Footwear, which became one of the most popular skateboarding shoes. They sponsored Tony Hawk and a bunch of people. And so Chris, kind of, while he was a pro, was also building brands in the sport of skateboarding and surf, skate culture. But Chris got into yoga because he was dealing with a lot of injuries as well through a mutual friend of ours, this woman, Lauren Duke, who was a great yoga teacher. I would go to her classes. Chris would go to her classes. After about a year of practicing yoga, I started thinking about this idea for a book brand. And we can talk about all the reasons why, but these thoughts are percolating, and I'm starting to have conversations with people like Lauren and my friends about this idea. And she was. She said, you need to meet Chris because Chris is actually having similar ideas. And so Chris and I met and we became instant friends. We just started surfing together. We were a part of this really cool community of people that were, you know, also building brands or they were yoga teachers or health and wellness experts or creatives and artists. Artists. And it was this awesome time in our hometown here in Encinitas. It was just a thriving time of people that were building things. And we were all in that phase of life, of creation, and we all became friends with one another. And Chris and I would talk. We would just sit around and talk about our life in Encinitas and this aspirational place that we get to call home and how people are in and out of the water and into yoga studios and prioritizing health and wellness and mindfulness. And the culture of the town was oriented around this, like, growth mindset. And we felt to ourselves, like this. This little area, this place, it's such rich inspiration for a brand. And we talked about the fact that there wasn't a brand, authentically speaking, to men in this, like, as fitness and wellness was becoming more of a lifestyle, not just something you did. There wasn't a brand that really spoke to this, this, this, this culture. And so ultimately Chris and I decided at that point, like, we, let's pursue this. And, and we decided at that time we were going to do it together.
- [57:14]
Randy
So as an entrepreneur, there's a saying that you want to fill a need with a need. There were 30 million people practicing yoga at the time, and 30% of those were men.
- [57:24]
Joe Kudla
Yeah.
- [57:24]
Randy
Did you do your market research at the time before you actually went ahead? Because so many people today just say, hey man, I'm just to going to wing this and I'm just going to start it and whatever happens, happens.
- [57:34]
Joe Kudla
Yeah, absolutely. We did research and you know, Chris, because he was from the action sports industry, would always quote that. You know, there were 4 million people that surfed in the United States. And I just thought that was insane because you're like, well, there's 4 million people that surf. But I was thinking about the brands that we all wore. Quicksilver and Billabong and o' Neal and Ruka and Volcom. I mean, the list goes on. There were so many of them, but there were only 4 million people that surfed. And inherently, just like in yoga participation, there were 30 million people and men's was, 30% of them were men. And it was the fastest growing demo in participation. So men were growing faster in participation than women were, but there were no brands for men. And it wasn't just about yoga. We knew that Vuori would always be a little bit broader than a yoga brand, but, but just jumping off. We felt like there were a lot of opportunity to build products that would support men and that were interested in doing yoga. That didn't necessarily identify you as like a hippie or a Buddha or a monk or somebody that like, you know, maybe like the association with yoga was that it was this like spiritual practice in the, in the Far east, you know, and we were like, no, there's, you know, normal guys, doctors, CPAs, executives that are doing yoga and they don't have a brand that like resonates with their lifestyle. And so we felt like that was a great jumping off point to start.
- [58:59]
Randy
It.