Robert Greene: The Untold Story Behind The 48 Laws of Power | E158

Summary

In Search Of Excellence: Robert Greene – The Untold Story Behind The 48 Laws of Power | E158

Introduction

In this compelling episode of In Search Of Excellence, host Randall Kaplan sits down with Robert Greene, the six-time New York Times bestselling author renowned for his insightful works such as The 48 Laws of Power, The Art of Seduction, and Mastery. Released on April 8, 2025, this interview delves deep into Greene's personal journey, the genesis of his influential books, and the profound lessons he's learned along the way.

Early Life and Family Influences

Robert Greene opens up about his upbringing in Baldwin Hills and his upbringing on the west side of Los Angeles. His father, a dedicated chemical salesman for four decades, instilled in him the importance of empathy and social skills. Greene recalls:

"He was a really good salesman because he understood people. [...] Everybody loved him." ([01:29])

Greene's mother, an artist with a keen eye for design and fashion, imparted relentless energy and persistence. At 98 years old, she remains a testament to the enduring spirit Greene inherited. This blend of empathy from his father and relentless drive from his mother shaped Greene's balanced approach to life and work.

Passion for Reading and Early Ambitions

As an introverted child, Greene found solace and inspiration in books. Reflecting on his early love for literature:

"Back in the day, this is in the 60s, they would hand you this mimeograph sheet with a list of, like, 200 books... I checked off, like, 75 books." ([03:04])

His fascination with World War II strategy and sports fueled his voracious reading habits, laying the foundation for his future analytical works on power dynamics and human behavior.

Navigating Early Career Struggles

Greene candidly discusses his tumultuous early career, marked by a series of unsatisfying jobs. From enduring the physically grueling construction work in Greece while battling illness to the mentally draining role as a skip tracer in Pasadena, Greene faced significant challenges:

"It was the worst physical job... the worst mental job... it was so soul-sucking." ([09:14])

His stint in Hollywood, particularly working on the notoriously lowbrow TV show Rescue911, further underscored the disconnect between his elevated literary aspirations and the superficial demands of the entertainment industry:

"I was making phone calls about a police fireman who like had to perform CPR on a pig... that was pretty bad." ([11:32])

These experiences not only tested Greene's resilience but also provided rich material for his subsequent writings on power and manipulation.

The Genesis of "The 48 Laws of Power"

A pivotal moment in Greene's life occurred during a trip to Venice, Italy, where a chance encounter with Jost Alfers, a book packager, ignited the spark for his magnum opus. Greene recounts:

"He suddenly asked me... do I have any ideas for a book... and that turned into the 48 Laws of Power." ([15:19])

The story of Nicholas Fouquet, the finance minister who outshone King Louis XIV and faced dire consequences, served as the catalyst for Greene's exploration of power dynamics. This epiphany transformed his career trajectory, leading him to dedicate himself wholeheartedly to writing.

Understanding Power: Key Concepts from The 48 Laws of Power

Greene elaborates on the nuanced nature of power, emphasizing that it’s not merely about domination but about the subtle orchestration of social interactions. He explains:

"Power is a complete social game. It's pure psychology. It's creating the appearance of power." ([25:11])

One of the most discussed laws, "Never Outshine the Master," emerged from his Hollywood experiences, where Greene observed the manipulative tactics employed by those seeking to ascend. Another significant law, "Always Say Less Than Necessary," highlights the strength found in restraint and the dangers of appearing insecure through excessive verbosity.

Greene stresses the importance of context in applying these laws:

"Each law depends on the circumstances. So you can't be blindly applying each law, no matter where you are." ([30:58])

Reactions to Success and Dealing with Envy

The sudden success of The 48 Laws of Power brought unexpected challenges, including envy and passive-aggressive behavior from friends. Greene reflects on these dynamics:

"Everybody feels envy to this day, I still feel envy, but I'm able to confront it and realize that I have that flaw." ([45:15])

He advises understanding and compassion as tools to navigate these emotional landscapes, emphasizing that envy is an ingrained human trait stemming from our inherent tendency to compare ourselves to others.

Maintaining Independence and Maneuverability

A recurring theme in Greene's discussion is the importance of maintaining independence to preserve one's power. Referencing Law 20, "Do Not Commit to Anyone," he explains:

"Power lies in keeping being the middleman, where people want your services and they have to fight for it." ([37:26])

Greene underscores that commitment can often lead to a loss of autonomy, limiting one's ability to maneuver and adapt to changing circumstances—a principle that resonates deeply in both personal and professional spheres.

Conclusion: Embracing the Complexity of Power

As the interview draws to a close, Greene reiterates the intricate balance required to navigate power effectively. He cautions against the blind application of his laws without considering personal circumstances and individual personality traits. Instead, he advocates for a thoughtful and context-aware approach to wielding power.

"It's a very subtle game where you think what you're doing is helping you, but in fact, it's having the opposite effect." ([25:11])

Randall Kaplan wraps up the episode by highlighting the depth and educational value of Greene's insights, promising listeners an enriching exploration of power dynamics in the forthcoming parts of the interview.

Notable Quotes

• Robert Greene ([00:02]): "You don't like your work. Your colleagues aren't listening to you, your boss tunes you out. You are completely powerless."
• Robert Greene ([01:29]): "He was a really good salesman because he understood people."
• Robert Greene ([25:11]): "Power is a complete social game. It's pure psychology."
• Robert Greene ([37:26]): "Power lies in keeping being the middleman, where people want your services and they have to fight for it."

Final Thoughts

This episode offers a profound look into Robert Greene's life and the principles that have made his work influential worldwide. For those seeking to understand the intricacies of power, human behavior, and personal excellence, this interview serves as a valuable resource, blending personal anecdotes with timeless wisdom.

Tune in next week for Part Two of this insightful conversation with Robert Greene, where more layers of his expertise and experiences will be unveiled.

Transcript

[Randall]

Does everybody have a get rich or die moment?

[Robert Greene]

Well, first of all, you have to be 37 years old and feel like you're a loser. And people looking at you like who is this person who's that age and hasn't really done anything. Then you will feel like get rich or die trying. The contrast with where I was five months ago in my smelly one bedroom apartment in Santa Monica where nobody would pay attention to me and suddenly paparazzi are photographing me in my swimsuit. It was shocking, it was surreal. You don't like your work. Your colleagues aren't listening to you, your boss tunes you out. You are complet powerless. You have no effect on people, no ability to influence them.

[Randall]

Law 20 do not commit to anyone.

[Robert Greene]

It's about keeping some independence, some room to maneuver. The game of life. The game of power is to have maneuverability. So in life, if you have options, you have power.

[Randall]

Welcome to In Search of Excellence. My guest today is Robert Green, who needs absolutely no introduction whatsoever. Six time New York Times bestselling author Books you're going to know the best. 48 laws of power. Art of Seduction and Mastery. Robert, thanks for being here today.

[Robert Greene]

Thank you so much for having me, Randall. I appreciate it. Glad to be here.

[Randall]

Let's start with your family. You were born in Baldwin Hills, raised on the west side of LA. Your dad was a chemical salesman for 40 years at the same company. Tell us about the influence of your parents that they had on you. And tell us a little bit about your mom, which you haven't talked about very much.

[Robert Greene]

Well, my mother is 98. She's still alive and kicking, doing really well. She was basically a housewife. She started a business that didn't last very long in the 70s. So she basically was a housewife. But she was an artist. She studied art at ucla. She has an eye for design and fashion. And what I got from my mother was her energy, her persistence. She's somebody that just never stops. She's got more energy than I do and she's 98. So this kind of relentless pursuit of something is sort of what I inherited from my mother, from my father. He was sort of a gentle person. He was a really good dad. And we bonded on the level mostly of sports. But I think what I got most from my father was my ability to work with people because he was a great salesman. Everybody loved him. It was really strange and almost poignant at his funeral. All these people came up who I never met before saying how much they loved my father. How wonderful it Was to work with him. He was a really, really good salesman because he understood people. He was really good in dealing with each person, different cultures. At that time, a lot of his clients were Korean. He got really into Korean culture. He was just a man with a great deal of empathy and had good social skills. So I inherited that from my father. So I think those two sides kind of balanced themselves out to produce. Voila, Here I am who I am.

[Randall]

You were very introverted as a kid, and you always loved books. Do you remember the first book you read and what impact it had on you?

[Robert Greene]

I cannot remember the first book I read. I can remember the experience, though. Back in the day, this is in the 60s, they would hand you this mimeograph sheet with a list of, like, 200 books, paperbacks, that children could order for, like, 5 cents apiece, right? And I checked off, like, 75 books. My father was like, Paul, you know, order 75 books. And I did. A lot of them had to do with war because I just loved reading about World War II. My father was, you know, he didn't fight, but he was a mechanic during World War II. He worked on planes. I was obsessed with World War II because it wasn't that distant at that time in the 60s. So a lot of the books had to do with battles and warfare and strategy and sports, the two things I love the most. So that's what I remember. These really cheap, poorly printed paperbacks. Just stacks of them that I ordered and read.

[Randall]

A lot of people, as they grow up, they get, for whatever reason, into drugs, seriously into drugs. You got into some serious drugs in high school, but, man, you've done your research, but you look back, and after that, even though you were depressed, you said you look back fondly on the drug experience. How on earth can someone who does drugs and have a drug problem look back and thought that was a good thing?

[Robert Greene]

I didn't have a drug problem. Let me correct that. I was mostly it was a search. For me, it was like kind of a spiritual experience that I was looking for. And so for us, it was associated with being out in nature, going to concerts, you know, like the Grateful Dead and things like that. And so it wasn't just for. It wasn't an addiction. It was kind of like to have sort of a transcendental type experience. And I had some of the most intense, beautiful experiences in my whole life. And I remember them very vividly. You know, trips to the ocean and just seeing everything just utterly, you know, the awesomeness of nature and just being alive. Which is the subject of my new book. So it impacted me very deeply on a spiritual level. It was never, like an addiction. So when I left Berkeley and I went to University of Wisconsin, I really didn't do any hallucinogenic drugs anymore. But it was a period of a year in my life that was so intense. I could still feel it in my body, how exciting it was. So I was using drugs not for just fun and kicks, but for, like, something else, something more, something deeper. I was searching for something.

[Randall]

So you went to Berkeley, then Wisconsin. My daughter went to Wisconsin. Madison. Yes. Yeah.

[Robert Greene]

Manitoba. Badgers. Yeah. Go Badgers.

[Randall]

Go Badgers. Although I went to Michigan. Go Blue.

[Robert Greene]

Oh, dear.

[Randall]

So I root for Wisconsin.

[Robert Greene]

You were in Ann Arbor.

[Randall]

Yeah, Ann Arbor. And I did root for the Badgers when Michigan wasn't playing. Great school. I'm not sure who misses it more, my daughter or me, because all the parents would go, would have the best times. Was the KK there when you were around?

[Robert Greene]

Was it? What?

[Randall]

The kk. It's this crazy bar. Everyone goes. It's fun.

[Robert Greene]

I think it was on State Street.

[Randall]

Yeah, it's called the College Club.

[Robert Greene]

Yeah, yeah, sure.

[Randall]

Great. Insane. So many people graduate college, and then they basically. The real world hits them in the face. I want to know what the experience was like when you sat down one day with a guy who asked you to lunch, and he was three martinis in when he told you something. What happened?

[Robert Greene]

Well, I was working for this magazine called Atensioni. It was a magazine for Italian Americans. Very fancy, very glossy. Actually, a very good magazine. And I had just recently been hired, and I wrote this article on a trip to Italy, which I thought was really good and really interesting about the Amalfi coast and all that. And so he takes me to lunch, and I'm expecting him to praise me. And instead he's basically saying, robert, I don't think you're a very good writer. I don't think you were meant to be a writer. You're not disciplined. You don't understand your audience very well. You just write whatever you feel like. You don't have, like, a good sense of communication, you know, like journalistic skills. Journalism is all about communicating quickly, an idea. And he says, you know, I think you should go to law school or business school. Save yourself the misery that trying to be a writer will have on you, and just go to law school and go to business school. And I remember because I've always wanted to be a writer since I was a kid. I love literature. I love Writing, it's like my main passion in life, you know? And so at first, I was like a gut punch. I was like, damn, what's this guy telling? What's his problem? And I sort of saw him as he's drinking his martinis. That was really his issue more than mine. And this image came up to my mind that I've never forgotten of looking at him in the eye as he's having his martinis. That it was like a house with a decent exterior, but the insides were all rotting and all the wood was full of, like, termites and just rotting. He was, like, rotting from the inside. And it was kind of like he was envious of me. I didn't take it personally, but in the days to come, it sort of affected me and it kind of weighed on me. And I came to the realization that in some way he was right. It wasn't. That writing wasn't right for me because I've always wanted to be a writer. And I knew that I was a good writer. It was that I was in the wrong field, journalism. And it was a signal to me that I wasn't passionately involved in it. And because I wasn't passionately involved in the work, it wasn't really of high quality. So I understood I had to get out of journalism, which was sort of the epiphany that I had. And I did get out of journalism.

[Randall]

So many young professionals today, and I have this intern program we talked about a little bit before the show. And I've mentored hundreds of students. And young professionals have no idea what they want to do. You knew you wanted to be a writer, and they bounce around. You had 50 jobs before you were at least.

[Robert Greene]

Probably more.

[Randall]

More. And we'll get into your big break in a minute, but let's talk about some of them. Hotel receptionist. You were a tour guide. You did a lot of. You worked for a screenwriter. You wrote some novels that you didn't finish. What was the worst job you ever had and the worst experience from that job? And what lessons did you learn from that one?

[Robert Greene]

Well, the worst physical job was in Greece. I was very sick. I was in a hospital. I had to pay my way to get off this Greek island. I had no money, so I did construction work. And I basically had to pull nails out of pieces of wood all day long, you know, and getting all bloody and everything. That was the worst physical job. The worst mental job was I worked for a detective agency, I believe, in Pasadena, somewhere like that. And I was a skip tracer, which is basically somebody who stays in an office. You're not a detective. You sit in an office and you try and hunt down people who've skipped town, who've left debts or, or have dropped, you know, got from. They haven't paid their bail, you know, they. Whatever the word is. And so my job was to find them over the telephone.

[Randall]

No Google then? No, no, no Google Nothing.

[Robert Greene]

Late 80s. And you had a script. You would call like the mother or the old ex girlfriend. They would give you the numbers and you had a script of how you would sort of deceive and manipulate them into believing that you were a friend and that you were just trying to look for this guy. Right? And so, you know, you'd have to say, you know, oh, I remember you would make up a story that would sound like you knew them in school. And unfortunately I was really good at it. But I felt so depressed, I felt so ugly inside.

[Randall]

Because you were conning them into giving them.

[Robert Greene]

Conning them. And these poor people who knew their story, maybe they were doing it for a reason. You know, I felt sympathy for them. I've always felt sympathy for the underdog in life. And here I was the oppressor. Here I was the police person trying to nab them. I felt ugly. And it was a really horrible period of my life. I was only at the job for three months, but it was so soul sucking. I've had a lot of soul sucking jobs working in Hollywood, that was probably the worst, but I could go on forever. All that stuff prepared me, gave me material for the 48 laws of power.

[Randall]

The Hollywood job I'm particularly curious about because we live here and we both have tons of friends in that business who get yelled at every day. They do shit work. It's a horrific experience.

[Robert Greene]

Thank you.

[Randall]

What is your worst experience working in Hollywood?

[Robert Greene]

I worked for a television company that produced one of the schlockiest TV shows in the 90s. I'm so embarrassed about it. I don't even want to tell you the name.

[Randall]

Oh, come on, you gotta tell us the name.

[Robert Greene]

Rescue911. I'm really. It's almost like admitting I was a porn star or something. That's how embarrassed I am to say that. Anyway, I was like a researcher for this show and God, you know, you're like calling the police chief in some town in Iowa asking for stories of people that he's like brought back from death. You know, stories of like a pet pig that was caught in a fire and the fireman had to perform CPR on The pig, you know, and then they were going to go out and film that, you know, I mean, that kind of stuff, you know, And I. I was always more of an elevated mentality. Not that I'm a snob, but I was always into like interesting movies and literature and stuff. And here I'm like making phone calls about a police fireman who like had to prep, do mouth to mouth resuscitation on a pig, think things like that. That was pretty bad. But I don't know, I saw a lot of very manipulative tactics worked on people. And that's where the 48 laws of power came from. And some of it kind of disturbed me. Like I would write whole sections of dialogue for a screenplay as an assistant, and it was probably the best dialogue in the script. But I never, no one ever gave me credit for it. No one knew that I had done that line. That was so funny. So law number seven, always get people to do the work but take the credit for it. That's where that law came from. I could go on and on and on about that.

[Randall]

Let's get to the book in a little bit. But I want to talk about the period we graduate College. We're usually 22 years old, and for the next 14 years you were kind of lost. You didn't know what you were doing. Things are not going well. Your parents were worried about you and you had suicidal thoughts. So did you ever actually think about killing yourself?

[Robert Greene]

Oh, yeah, yeah. My girlfriend and my wife, now she can attest to that. I was pretty low. It's this feeling like, you know, that you're good at something, you know, that you're destined for something. I always had a feeling like I was destined to do something interesting and maybe even great, right? But you haven't done it. You've kind of wasted. What is it? You're lost. If I never felt like I was really meant to do something important, I wouldn't have gotten so depressed. But the discrepancy between what I thought of myself and what I had achieved was getting wider and bigger and bigger and bigger. And as you say, I'm in my mid-30s and I'm seeing all these young people come up who are so smart, who've already directed their first film, who produced their film, they've written their first novel. Here I am, 36, 37, and you could put, take that word loser and attach it to me. At least I felt that way. It hadn't really added up to anything solid. So, yeah, I was deeply depressed and at moments I thought of suicide.

[Randall]

So many of us have a big break, right? Things are not going well. My own life. I came to LA. I lost my job five and a half weeks after moving here. I had $3,000 in the bank. Got fired from that job six months later, while I got a job in Orange County. They wanted me to move. I said no. Fired from that job eight months in.

[Robert Greene]

Wow.

[Randall]

Got a record. Big time record. Worst legal start to a legal career that you could probably have. Well, yeah. And so Eli Broad hired me after this terrible stretch I had, and that was my big break. Tell us when you were in Venice, Italy, about a guy named Jost Alphurs. Tell us what happened next.

[Robert Greene]

Well, I was there on a project that a friend from Berkeley, a college friend, had invited me on to write a book to help launch a school that Benetton was starting, a media school, which is a really weird concept, a book to launch a school.

[Randall]

And for those people who don't know, Benetton was in this really cool clothing brand. They had, like, the rugby that was blue and had white.

[Robert Greene]

It was a bad experience. It was just like all these Italian people drinking espresso all day and arguing and discussing, and nothing ever got done. Nothing, you know? And so I like to get things done. And this man, Jost Alfers, is in New York, is a book packager, which is basically a man who produces books. Like a man who produces or a woman who produces movies. And he was there to produce this mythical book that we were going to write. We were both walking on the caves of Italy, of Venice, one of the most beautiful locations in the world, the Piazza San Marco. And he suddenly asked me in his nice Dutch accent whether I had any ideas for a book. And suddenly there's like a light bulb that went on in my head, like, wow, I could write a book. Not a novel, not a screenplay, not a play, but a book, a nonfiction book. Never really thought of that before. And I got kind of really weird and excited inside, and I improvised an idea that turned into the 48 laws of power. I told him a story. I said, I've been through all these terrible experiences like we were having in Italy with all these Machiavellian characters. I told him a story of King Louis XIV and his prime minister, or his attendant, his finance minister, sorry, Nicholas Fouquet, who threw the most magnificent party in honor of the king, right? The party that people were talking about. It was like the greatest party they'd ever attended. And the day after he was thrown in prison and spent the Rest of his life in prison, he had outshone the master. People were liking him more than the king. And because he was offending the king's ego, he was thrown into prison, ostensibly for financial reason, for corruption. Right. Never outshine the master. I said, yost, this is an example in history of something so elemental, a pattern in people, their insecurities, their egos, that if you inadvertently trip their ego and it's your boss, you're going to pay for it. In the old days, you would be beheaded or thrown into prison. Now you will be fired. He got so excited by that. And he said, robert, I'll pay you to. I'm not going to do his accent. I'll pay you to write the rest of the book and we'll sell it. He paid me. This is 1996. He paid me 3,000amonth, which back then wasn't bad for somebody who was pretty much living paycheck to paycheck. My method was I would work six months in Hollywood and make a fair amount of money and then quit and write for six months until I had nothing. And at that point, I had nothing. So 3,000amonth was pretty good for me.

[Randall]

You call this moment a get rich or die moment? Does everybody have a get rich or die moment? And if you don't, what do you say to people who are hoping to get one?

[Robert Greene]

Well, first of all, you have to be 37 years old and feel like you're a loser. And you have your parents, like, kind of whispering things and these phone calls that are kind of disturbing you and people looking at you like, maybe who is this person who's that age and hasn't really done anything, then you will feel like get rich or die trying kind of thing, right? So if you're in your 20s, it's hard to feel that kind of desperation, right? Unless you're so ambitious that by the time you. And there are young people like that, you're 23 and you haven't made your first million, you feel like that kind of thing. But it was mostly that I was so desperate to save my life. And it was really like saving my life at that point that I. I was going to work. I was going to kill myself to make this book work. And I did. Literally, I didn't kill myself, but I worked so hard night and day, day and night. Just poured every last bit of energy I had into that to make it something great. I call it in my war book, my strategy book, the Death Ground Strategy in Battle. When an army has its back to A mountain or to the ocean. And it's either defeat the enemy or die. That army will fight with three times, four times the energy. Right. Well, my back was against the ocean. I was going to, like, kill myself if I didn't succeed. And because of that energy, I worked so hard with so much desire and so much emotion that I put it all into that book.

[Randall]

There's something ingrained in us that our parents know best. Right. Our parents want us to go to law school or. I'm Jewish, you know, you should be a doctor. And everyone believed that your parents. Yeah, I'm Jewish.

[Robert Greene]

We share that.

[Randall]

So thankfully, my mom. Thankfully, my mom didn't say that I needed to be a doctor. She wanted me to be a doctor. But I.

[Robert Greene]

But you're a lawyer. Second best.

[Randall]

Don't want to admit that to people today. Not proud of that moment. You did it. Did it. Because I thought $70,000 back in 1993, I was rich. There's nothing I couldn't do on $70,000. I made, after tax, they $48,000. Like, all right, this is amazing. Do parents actually know best?

[Robert Greene]

No.

[Randall]

Why not?

[Robert Greene]

Because everybody's different. Everybody is born with a different DNA, with a different wiring of their brain, with different tastes, with different proclivities, different inclinations. And when parents try to impose their own values, their own experiences on their child, they're doing a disservice. They're harming the soul of that child. Right. So I can credit my parents in the sense that they put a little bit of pressure, like Jewish parents always will. Right. But they weren't too forceful with it. But I know a lot of people who felt that pressure. You know, got to be a doctor, got to be a lawyer, got to follow this path or that path. And when parents do that, a lot of times what happens is you enter a profession under the belief that I need to make money, that I need to be comfortable. Right. Because that's the most important thing. To have the insecurity of not knowing how you're going to make a living is terrible. I understand that, but it's not connecting to you. And I'm not going to say this about you, but a lot of people who go into becoming lawyers, they do that out of that desire to make money, not out of a connection to law, not out of a connection to. To the rhetoric of law, to the back and forth element, to the confrontational aspect. It's because they want to make a living out of it. Money. And then they get into their late 20s, their 30s, and there's no connection to it. They don't feel it. There's no energy, there's no desire, there's no emotion. And they start tuning out, and their work suffers. And they start, you know, being distracted and thinking of other things. And then slowly, as they get older, they. They feel like, damn it, I missed it. I should have done something else, right? So you have to learn at a very early age to not listen to your parents and to listen to that voice inside of your head that tells you what you want to be. For me, that voice was writer. Be a writer. Be a writer. Not be a lawyer, not be a doctor, but be a writer. And if that voice gets drowned out by the voices of your parents, you're in a lot of trouble.

[Randall]

I know a lot of lawyers. I fucking hated every minute of law school. Couldn't. I mean, I gotta read this case. I had no interest. It was like, oh, my God, how do I read this and understand it? I practiced so unsuccessfully for two and a half years. There wasn't a moment I sat at my desk where I thought, I love what I'm doing. This is rewarding. This is just the best thing ever. And most lawyers I know today are absolutely miserable.

[Robert Greene]

Oh, good. Well.

[Randall]

But they get golden hang. I mean, we had dinner. Maybe we have some really, really good friends. He's a lawyer, very senior lawyer, charges $2,000 an hour. And I said to him, and I'm not going to mention his name, but we'll call him Jim Bob. I said, hey, Jim Bob. I said, do you like what you're doing these days? He said, I fucking hate it. And I said, well, you're making a few million dollars a year. You have all these fancy clients. He said, well, I'd rather be doing something else.

[Robert Greene]

Yeah, very common scenario.

[Randall]

And it's too late, you know? He said, what am I going to do now? It's the only thing I know what to do.

[Robert Greene]

How old is he?

[Randall]

He's 50, 58.

[Robert Greene]

Too late.

[Randall]

Two kids, mortgage, private school, nice vacations, $4,000 a night, hotel rooms when they go away.

[Robert Greene]

I tell people that as a cautionary tale, because I've heard stories like that. You do not want to be that person. I tell them who's 55 years old, who looks back on their life and says, God, I could have been this. Or in the words of Marlon Brando, I could have been a contender. I could have been great at this. And I never did it right. And then that feeling of regret is like a wound, a pain that Never goes away. It's gonna haunt you till you die. You don't wanna be that person, is what I tell people.

[Randall]

You write this incredible book, your first book. It's unheard of almost for your first book to be such a bestseller. Everybody knows the book. When I told people that you were coming on my show, everyone's like, Robert Greene. I love that book, 48 Laws of Power. They're telling me about all the lessons. So let's start at the very beginning with the title of the book, the word Power. When I think of power, and before I read the book, I thought, all right, well, power means you can dictate everything. You're in control of everything. You got it all, and everyone's got to listen to you. And you can basically do whatever you want. That's not the definition of power, is it?

[Robert Greene]

No, it's not, because it's a social game. Power is a complete social game. It's pure psychology. It's creating the appearance of power. It's making people like you, making people want to be on your side. And if you're a bully, if you're forcing people, if you're telling people what to do, it's like you create a counter reaction and they secretly resent you and they're going to work against you, Right? The game of power is to play on people's psychology to the point where they do what you want them to do, but willingly, of their own volition. They think that they're helping themselves, but they're really advancing you. It's a very subtle game where you think what you're doing is helping you, but in fact, it's having the opposite effect, Right? You know, you're not aware of the consequences of your action. You're talking too much. You think by talking a lot, you're going to impress people with all of your knowledge and all your intelligence. And in fact, you're making yourself look weak and insecure. Always say less than necessary. Law number four. Some of the book is counterintuitive. Some of it is kind of common sense, but some of it is counterintuitive. I'm trying to show you the subtle gradations of the game of power, the social aspect. Because knowing how to deal with people is not easy. Nobody hands us a book when we graduate college saying, this is how it works. People are very tricky. They never tell you exactly what they think about you. They smile, but they're not really on your side. And so you have to be very alert, and you have to understand the subtle nuances of the game of power.

[Randall]

You said that the feeling of being powerless is more corrupting than the feeling of power itself. What does it mean to be powerless? And why is that more corrupting than power?

[Robert Greene]

Well, you know, put yourself in this situation. It's very simple. It's not that complicated. It's not rocket science. Your children aren't listening to you. Your son, your daughter, they're tuning you out. You yell at them, screaming. They won't listen to you at all.

[Randall]

Up to a certain point.

[Robert Greene]

No, no, no. I'm just painting a scenario, okay? So your children are tuning you out. Your wife won't listen to you or your husband. Very annoying habits that you wish them to change. You don't yell, you try to change it, but they're not changing. You don't like your work. Your colleagues aren't listening to you, Right? Nobody cares about you. Your boss tunes you out. You are completely powerless. Nobody will listen to you. Nobody will do it. You have no effect on people, no ability to influence them. I think we can all relate to how miserable that feels, right? To have the fact, because we're animals, that, you know, life is tricky. It's chaotic. We want some control. We want the ability to some degree to direct the circumstances that are happening around us. And the feeling that you can't influence your children or your spouse or your colleagues or your boss is the worst feeling in the world. And I know that feeling very, very deep, profoundly, because I had it right. But the sense that you have control over yourself and you can control, you can move people sort of in the direction that you want, that you can kind of, you know, how to appeal to their self interest, to get them to do what you want them to do. It's a different, much different feeling. It's not joy and pleasure. It's not ecstasy. I don't say that. But it's a calming effect. It's an effect that I can dictate to some degree the course of my life.

[Randall]

Let's go through some of the laws right now. And as you said, some of them are counterintuitive. So I was raised in Detroit and was always taught to be humble, right? You shouldn't be the person that everyone is pointing at. You shouldn't be the person who's loud or boisterous. When I was in law school, there were people called gunners. And gunners were the people raising their hand every time the professor would call on them. They wouldn't shut the fuck up. And they wanted everyone to know how smart they were. And a Lot of times they weren't that smart. They just liked being heard. Our company goes public. Company has a $14 billion valuation. The day it goes public, it shoots up to 35 billion. 86 days later.

[Robert Greene]

When is this?

[Randall]

This is 1999. October 29, 1999. I'm 31 years old.

[Robert Greene]

What company is this?

[Randall]

Akamai Technologies.

[Robert Greene]

Oh, yeah, sure, I remember that.

[Randall]

Post ipo, everybody want to talk about the wealth, right? I didn't want to talk about anything. Eli Broad told me this reporter from Detroit called me up. Duron Levin. He was the business reporter. I read him growing up. He calls me up and he says, hey, I'm Duron Levin. Yeah, I know. I want to write this profile about you. I said, wow, thank you. I'm flattered. Not interested. And he said, why not? He said, I just. I want to keep my life private. He said, well, you really can't. And he said, so I'm going to write the story with or without you. I call Eli Broad, who's also from Detroit. I'm sure he knows Daron. He knew Daron. I said, hey, what do you think of him? He said, yeah, he's a good guy. He's going to treat you fairly. I said, well, Eli, I really don't want him to write the story. And he said, this will be your coming out party. I said, I don't want a coming out party. And he said, then there's one reason to do it. And he said, you can influence the outcome of the story. So I had to do it. He was writing it either way. It influenced me. But I had so many opportunities. He invited me on Bloomberg Television. I had nothing to talk about. And they were going to. What's it like to be a founder of this company? So law number six, court attention at all costs. Doesn't make any sense to me. Why should we do that?

[Robert Greene]

Well, I try to make the point, which is a very important point that people miss. I think it's in the preface. I'm pretty sure it's in the preface, because I wrote it, that each law depends on the circumstances. So you can't be blindly applying each law, no matter where you are, no matter how old you are, no matter what your position is, that is foolish. Life doesn't work like that. Each person faces different circumstances. In some circumstances, you want to enter action with boldness. In other circumstances, you don't want to outshine the master. When you're in certain businesses, courting attention at all costs is extremely powerful. Attention is power, particularly in the Age of social media. But sometimes in some situations, courting attention is the worst thing you can do. It makes you look aggressive, makes you look overeager. It makes you look insecure. So damn it, stop applying my laws willy nilly. No matter who you are, think about your circumstances and your situation. Be intelligent, Apply them intelligently. And the last law of the book is assume formlessness. And I explicitly state in that law, throw out all 47 laws that you've just read because they're ridiculous. Just learn to be in the moment and apply what matters in that particular moment. So it all depends on where you are and in that particular moment. Court attention was maybe the wrong strategy.

[Randall]

I think a lot of the people who are raising their hand and talking the whole time, I think they're insecure. And so many people I know who have made money, especially younger people who have never made money more before, I think there's a lot of insecurity that goes into courting attention themselves.

[Robert Greene]

Yeah, but look at this. People on social media, influencers, they're those people who were raising their hands like that in law school and look how you know, they've got 5 million followers, they're making seven figures, whatever it is, they're doing pretty well by courting attention. It just depends on who you are, the kind of person you are and the kind of world you're in, the culture you're in, and the circumstances.

[Randall]

Okay, so we're not going to take all these literally, but I still want to go through some.

[Robert Greene]

Okay, thank you.

[Randall]

So I had a boss at Sun America. Not really a boss, he was a junior boss. He had been the assistant to the chairman, which I was as well before. And he was not a good person, not a good person to learn from. We do all this work and he'd take all the credit for all the work. And you'd sit there in these meetings with Eli. And we created these 80 page, very complicated financial models and his name is Jim. Jim's giving it to our CEO, Eli. And I'm sitting around the room, what's going on here? But you said that get others to do the work for you and don't share any of the credit. How could you be a good leader or learn from somebody if that's the case?

[Robert Greene]

Okay, well, first of all, a lot of the laws, I'm not preaching, I'm not saying what's good or bad. I'm saying things. This is how the world operates. Do not be naive. Do not be a naive yokel like I once was when I entered Hollywood thinking that if I wrote it, I was going to get credit. Understand the law of the jungle. The law of the jungle is that there are vultures out there who are circling around you at every moment, willing to take. Wanting to take your work and eat it up for themselves. They're scavengers, essentially, is what they are, okay? They're there. Do not be naive, all right? And so the best thing to do is to understand the dynamic. Understand that people are going to take credit for your work. When you're younger, when you're starting up. I mean, if you look at people giving speeches, politicians or newscasters or comedians who seem so eloquent, thousands of people are writing all of their material. Comics aren't writing their own jokes. They have a team of writers who are writing their jokes. Newscasters aren't writing their reports. They have all these researchers doing it. That's how the world works, right? Don't be stupid. Understand the dynamic. And yes, when you get to a position of power, you're probably going to be using that yourself anyway, because it's hard enough if you're like somebody in the public to do all of the work yourself, right? It's too exhausting. You've got a team of people doing it for you. You don't put their name on every single thing that you do. That's just the way the world works. I'm trying to open your eyes to the way of the world and not make you not so damn naive.

[Randall]

When we're terrified of things, our prefrontal cortex makes terrible decisions. You freeze it, impairs your ability to do a lot of things. And Law 17 in the book is keep others in suspended terror. So how on earth can you do that in any way, shape or form and still function as a rational, objective person making good decisions?

[Robert Greene]

You're taking it. You know, as I said, everything has a context, right? So if you're completely predictable as a leader, as a boss, if everybody knows what you're going to do next, you don't have much power in the situation because people can read you like an open book. They know exactly what's coming, right? And they're going to use that against you. Even if you are a boss, the people working for you are going to manipulate you. They know that this is the next thing that you're going to do. If you're unpredictable, if they cannot guess what's coming next from their leader, it keeps them on their toes. Well, I don't know how he or she's going to respond to this report that I have, I better make it really good as opposed to. If I write it this way and I con the leader into thinking, that's a great report, I'll just give it the appearance of that and he or she will love it, right? You want to get the best out of people. So sometimes that little touch of unpredictability keeps them on their toes. Now, obviously, creating terror is a bit of extreme thing for me to say, but please understand, I'm writing a book that is, you know, a marketing tool. So if I said keep people in suspended, you know, anguish, whatever, it doesn't have the oomph of it. So I use the word terror. But the idea of being unpredictable is an extremely powerful tool. And it's a book about power. It's not a book about being nice. It's not a book about people loving you. It's a book about power.

[Randall]

Law 20, okay? Do not commit to anyone.

[Robert Greene]

Once again. It's not about relationships. It's not about your wife or your husband and not committing to them, okay? It's about keeping some independence, some room to maneuver. The game of life. The game of power is to have maneuverability. It's like warfare. The army that has room to move its soldiers, has more space, can maneuver in different directions, has more power. Okay? So in life, if you have options, if you have the ability to go here, here or here, you have power, okay? But if you've committed to this person, I'm going to help you no matter what happens. You've lost your independence, you've lost your autonomy. Now you have to go this direction instead of perhaps choosing this, this, or this to serve your own interests. Okay? So it's so easy to fall into the trap of always committing to these people and losing your independence. And I'm trying to make you aware that power lies in keeping being the middleman, where people want your services and they have to fight for it as opposed to just immediately joining this side or that side.

[Randall]

I think so many people who read the book don't take the whole context. I mean, as you explain it today, I've talked to a lot of people about the book Crush your enemy. And they talk about all this stuff. Oh, Robert is a badass. He's telling us all these things, and I'm taking it to heart. But you said that you don't follow all 48 laws, and if you did, you'd be an ugly person, I'd be a monster. Yeah, but you wrote them.

[Robert Greene]

Yeah, but I mean, I never intended for anybody on the planet to follow all48. The person who came, the closest that I knew who followed the 48 laws of power was 50 Cent. Right? I wrote a book with him. He's a really nice guy. He's a really good person, actually. I mean, I know his reputation and the kind of thuggish front that he gives, but he's actually a very decent person, very wonderful to work for, he's got good values, etc. But he follows the laws and he's not a bad person. But, you know, everything is for your circumstances. Some people, the laws would be terrible to apply because it's not your personality, you're not a bold person. So interaction with boldness will just look ridiculous. You'll make all kinds of mistakes, you know, so you have to know what fits you as a human being, what makes you comfortable, what makes you not feel ugly inside. You have to know what your circumstances are. You have to know what could possibly work in this situation or that situation and apply the laws and all 48 will never be in play for you.

[Randall]

So how many of the 48 should we master to be? Great.

[Robert Greene]

You know, in some cases, it could be only one law to understand and master. You know, you certainly don't want to crush your enemy totally. That is a law that has to do with businesses, because you better believe it. Believe it. That businesses use crush your enemy totally all of the time, Particularly in the tech world where it's very competitive and very cutthroat. You don't think Google or Microsoft or Facebook don't operate by crush your enemy totally. Come on, they do. But you, as an individual who's like a lawyer or an artist or a rock musician, you're not going to crush your enemy totally, right? Obviously anybody who thinks that doesn't understand how to read a book, right? It's context. It's who you are. So, you know, it could be just one law. Always say less than necessary, not always spouting out about things. Or it could be, never outshine the master, because I got fired several times for outshining the master. It was a very painful experience. You know, at some point in your life, one law will save you from some misery, from some painful experience. One law will do the trick for you. And maybe over the course of your Life, there'll be 12 or 16 of those laws. I don't know. I can't put a number on it.

[Randall]

One of the human conditions that has always surprised me is that when you're successful or something great happens to you, people are not happy for you. And your book comes out and the New Yorker magazine calls you a total creep and you have a lot of haters. So what was the reaction when people started criticizing your book? Did you care? And how should people deal with the haters when something good happens to them?

[Robert Greene]

Well, you know what? I didn't really have that experience. One time, I have to correct you a little bit. I think it was the New York magazine. They had an article called the book Chicken Soup for the Soulless. Right. And I took that as kind of funny. That was kind of a funny thing. I was surprised that I didn't get as much criticism as I did, to be honest with you. I was expecting a lot worse. And the only people who were a little bit difficult or nasty or hard to deal with were friends, strangely enough, because here they saw somebody who they knew as this guy who was just struggling to get by to pay his rent, who never really had any success, and suddenly he's being interviewed on these television shows and these magazines and newspapers are doing articles and envy came in and they weren't so nice to me anymore. They were kind of mean spirited. So I had some of that from friends. A lot of friends weren't like that. But in general, people treated me with more respect than I actually deserved. I didn't have to ever face a great deal of criticism. And I'll tell you this, coming from a place where my life up till then was such a struggle, you know, I mean, I'm not to exaggerate because there are people who had it worse. There are always people that have it worse. So I don't mean to be overly dramatic, but I had struggled a lot through life. So to have a couple of people criticize me for this, that and the other, oh, go away, I don't care. It's like a mosquito on an elephant. It doesn't bother me at all. You know, I'd been through already so much that it didn't matter. I had a pretty thick skin.

[Randall]

What you say about friends is just so true. I was young, I made all this money, I went to good schools, I did well. And there's a certain competitiveness among people, whether it's outwardly or inwardly, subconsciously. And when someone does really well, I mean, I have friends, investment bankers, and they're making the most money. The lawyers are kind of the second tier in terms of making money. But when one of your buds makes tons of money, it really, really, really affected some of my closest friendships. And you really find out who your friends were. I remember walking through an investment bank and they separated the management part, the money management part of the firm through the bankers. Investment bankers. There's what's known as a Chinese wallet. They can't talk to one another. I remember one of the colleagues, one of my best friends, said it was a big deal. I'm 31 years old and at least on paper, worth over $100 million. Hundreds of millions of dollars on paper. One of the guys who was an investment banker doing really well and said, and I'll call him Jim Bob again. So he said, jim Bob's never gonna catch you. And I was. It's like someone hit me over the head with a hammer. And I thought, gosh. And I had to keep walking. We were having a conversation, and I remember thinking that night as I sat around to it, why. Why can't people be happy for you?

[Robert Greene]

Well, I didn't understand what showed that he wasn't happy for you.

[Randall]

He was happy. He was unhappy because he was envious.

[Robert Greene]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Randall]

You know, these guys were the top of the top. They went to Harvard and Stanford and Wharton. They're investment bankers.

[Robert Greene]

Well, you know, look, I've written a lot about envy in the 48 laws of power. Never Appear Too Perfect, which is all about envy. And if you appear too perfect, you're going to attract envy like a magnet, and you're going to suffer for it. In the Laws of Human Nature, I have an entire chapter just devoted to envy and how. What a prevalent human trait that is. And first of all, you have to understand that it's human nature that we're built. Our brains are built through comparison. We compare information. That's how intelligence. That's how our language works. It's how the human brain has become what it is. By comparing information as a social animal, we're also comparing ourselves constantly to other people. It's ingrained. It's wired into our systems. So the point of my book, the Laws of Human Nature, is stop feeling so superior. Stop feeling like, oh, they're envious. I'm not. He's a narcissist. But I'm not. No, you all share that trait. Everybody feels envy to this day, I still feel envy, but I'm able to confront it and realize that I have that flaw. And by understanding it, then I can be more compassionate to people. But also I can understand what I can do to deflect envy from other people. So maybe I'm not criticizing you, but maybe you were doing something that was making them feel empty. You were Kind of rubbing it into them a little bit.

[Randall]

I never did that.

[Robert Greene]

You never did that?

[Randall]

Never. In fact, I would never want to talk about the money. I was embarrassed almost. You know, you have imposter syndrome. You know, you think at night, I really, you deserve all this money.

[Robert Greene]

I rewind. I take that back. But a lot of people trigger envy because they boast too much. They wanted to display themselves to the world. Look how great it is. Look how wonderful my life is. You're naturally going to stir up envy. So it's your own fault sometimes, right?

[Randall]

I mean, we built. I built my dream house when I was 31 years old. My friends were all, God, I'm still living envious. Well, they're in apartments, you know, they're in apartments. I hate you. But it was. I mean, it's almost embarrassing to have your friends come over because they're looking at this house and it's spectacular. And, you know, I remember talking with my wife at the time, do we buy it or do we not buy it? And this crazy thought would be, are our friends gonna come visit us at the house? Are they going to be envious? Is it gonna be weird? I gotta tell you, it was weird for a lot of people.

[Robert Greene]

Yeah.

[Randall]

Very weird.

[Robert Greene]

Yeah. Understand that. Understand that it's natural, it's human to feel that way and to kind of, you know, don't take it personally. We take too many things personally in life.

[Randall]

But I hurt, huh? It can't not hurt.

[Robert Greene]

Yeah, but in some ways I understand it. You know, I understand it when people like friends would kind of give bitchy, passive aggressive comments about my book. They would say things like, well, Robert, you must be making a lot of money with that book. As if I wrote it just to make money. Which isn't the case at all. Right. But they were trying to. It was a little subtle, passive aggressive dig that they were getting in there. Right. And I would get other digs like that. And it just goes off my back. Like that's what people are like, you know, that's the animal that we are. I'm not going to take it seriously. Yeah, it hurts a little bit. I understand in the moment it hurts, but in the days to come, it doesn't bother me at all because I understand that's just how humans are wired.

[Randall]

Like so many people. It takes years and years to become successful. What was it like when it became a bestseller?

[Robert Greene]

I compared it to Disneyland, where you have. Here in Anaheim, you have the Mr. Toad's wild ride. I went from, like, kind of living in this crummy one bedroom apartment in Santa Monica to being jetted off to Italy and meeting the Prime Minister, former prime Minister of Italy. It was like Mr. Toad's Wild Ride. It was like being on drugs. I was having a wonderful time. It was surreal. It was really surreal. And I mentioned this Italian junket. It was probably the first. It was the first press trip I took, I think. No, maybe the second. But it was like early 1999, and I'm invited to Italy, to the island of Capri, to present my book. And so, you know, sure, of course I'll do that. And I'm suddenly like flying business class, which I've never flown before. And I. I'm taken to this island, to this. If you've ever been to Capri, it's one of those.

[Randall]

We've been there.

[Robert Greene]

Spectacular, Spectacular.

[Randall]

Yep.

[Robert Greene]

Very ritzy, very fancy, put up in the finest hotel. And then the weirdest thing of all is I'm walking around in my swimsuit and paparazzi are following me, taking photographs of me. You know, like the contrast with where I was five months ago in my smelly one bedroom apartment in Santa Monica where nobody would pay attention to me. And suddenly paparazzi are photographing me in my swimsuit. You know, it was shocking, it was surreal. It was hard to understand the discrepancy and kind of, you know, make sense of it all. But it was still a thrill. And nothing will ever in my life, you know, to the day I die, will ever compare with that trip to Italy. It was so weird. And I had such a great time and it was so exciting. It was like endless thrills. But it was also like, why all of a sudden am I getting this attention? Do I really deserve it? It's kind of weird.

[Randall]

Did you have imposter syndrome?

[Robert Greene]

A little bit. A little bit.

[Randall]

But you got over it?

[Robert Greene]

Yeah. I mean, I had a sit down meeting with the former Prime Minister of Italy in the magnificent palace where he still had an office. And he was considered the most Machiavellian politician in Italy's history. He had a very kind of sketchy career. And he'd written an article praising the 48 laws of power. And here he was in office and he didn't speak much English and my Italian's a little bit weird. So we were talking to each other in French because I speak French pretty well. I was sitting here talking in French in this magnificent gilded office in the palace in Rome to this former prime minister bantering about power. Whoa, this is so weird. It's like I was. Like I was on drugs or something.

[Randall]

You're listening to part one of my incredible interview with Robert Greene, a six time New York Times bestselling author whose books include the 48 Laws of Power, the Art of Seduction and Mastery. It's an incredible interview, very insightful and educational. Can't wait for you to listen to it. Be sure to tune in next week to part two of my incredible interview with Robert.