← In Search Of Excellence
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- [00:00]
A
When we interview, you can't help but experience, like, great growth. There's preparation required. I came back from that interview, and the plan was I'm going to accept this job that following Thursday. And then I ended up turning the job down and staying in Dallas. But that experience with Mr. Davis, those five days of interviewing with him, I know you come away from that feeling like, I can interview with anyone because the questions and his knowledge was pretty, pretty impressive.
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B
Welcome to A Search of Excellence, where we meet entrepreneurs, CEOs, entertainers, athletes, motivational speakers, and trailblazers of excellence with incredible stories from all walks of life. My name is Randall Kaplan. I'm a serial entrepreneur, venture capitalist, and the host of the Search of Excellence, which I started to motivate and inspire us to achieve excellence in all areas of our lives. My guest today is my friend, Sean Payton. Sean is one of the most successful coaches in NFL history. He's heading into his second season as the head coach of the Denver Broncos. And before that, he was the head coach of the New Orleans Saints for 16 seasons, where he led the team to the first and only super bowl victory in 2010, the same year he was named NFL Coach of the Year. Sean is also the author of the book Home Team Coaching the Saints in New Orleans. Back to life, Sean, thanks for being here. Welcome to In Search of Excellence.
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A
Good to be on. I appreciate you asking me on. I'm honored.
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B
Let's start at the beginning. You grew up. You're born in Naperville, you're born in San Mateo.
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A
Yeah, yeah. My parents are from the East Coast. They're both from Scranton. And my dad was in the insurance industry. They made a move to the West Coast. My older brother and sister were already born, so I'm one of four. And then myself and younger sister were born in San Mateo, California. Then back east when I was 7. For grade school, we lived outside of Philadelphia. Again, a job move for him. And then where I call home is Naperville or Chicago. That move took place, I think, in 1978, 79. I was going into eighth grade, so I went to junior high and then high school and then college, like three and a half hours down the road at eastern Illinois.
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B
So. Well, we'll talk about those.
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A
And yeah, but I would say, yeah, I would say when I, when someone asked me where I'm from, I. To me, it feels like Illinois because, you know, I spent all of my high school years there, college years there.
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B
Tell us about the doves in your basement and the birds you had out there.
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A
All right, so look, my father, like I mentioned, was a businessman who worked with CNA Insurance company, worked with a handful of companies, but nonetheless, that's what he did for a living. But he, he loved magic and, and my older brother the same way. And so there would be a few different things in our house that were like, what are these things? You know, we had rabbits in the backyard for a few years because he would use those in his show. And then of course, we got the two doves. Now you got to keep their, I guess their wings trimmed. I was never my older brother and he. That was kind of their thing, the magic. Yeah. So if you heard like these odd noises coming from a basement in the Midwest you had these basements. So for a period of time we had some doves in the basement. And fortunately I wasn't in charge caring for them, but they're kind of messy.
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B
Would they come back when you let them go?
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A
Oh, they're in. They're in kind of a larger cage and it's like a pet. But he would use them when he did a magic show. He'd do a ton of kids shows and stuff in the neighborhood. That was kind of one of his things that he enjoyed.
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B
We're going to talk about your football interest in a minute in high school and your progression there. But what were you like as a kid and what were your dreams when you were 10?
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A
So I, I can't speak for my older brother. My older brother was in the high school band and my older sister also. I had taken a music lesson. I think it lasted two days. I enjoyed sports. So for me, I was classic, you know, little league, baseball, basketball, football, youth sports and actually youth hockey because it was during the time when the Philadelphia Flyers won back to back Stanley Cups. And when that happens to a community at that time, it wasn't necessarily a rich hockey community, but it became one very quickly because of their success. And so we played a ton of street hockey, then a ton of ice hockey. And. And so those are the. I mean, I was the kid that played, you know, in the fall it was football. In the wintertime, it was basketball. In the spring it was baseball. The conflict with hockey and football, you know, a lot of times they were the same season I played when we moved to Illinois, all four of those sports. And then by the time I went to high school, I had to stop playing ice hockey. So I was a little bit of the kind of jock, you know, just enjoyed sports. And I think that was different than certainly my older brother and I Had a younger sister. And, you know, in our household, because of the gap, nine years when we lived in Chicago, my older brother, you know, stayed in Philly. You know, he was through with his education. My older sister moved, but she was out of the house. So my younger sister and I, it felt like really, you know, there were two kids in our household because of the gap, age wise. And. And so, yeah, I think sports really were a big part of my life, especially, you know, as a kid, you know, even when you weren't playing formally or organized sports, you know, we would be playing pickup games, you know, outside in the neighborhood.
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B
We all have teachers in our lives that are very influential. You had one. I have Jared. Jared Bishop. Tell us about your English paper. What happened?
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A
Yeah, what.
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B
What was the lesson you learned from that?
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A
So it's funny you bring that up. You know, we're sitting here in Broncos headquarters. Yesterday was high school coaches day here. So we had a ton of high school coaches in the Denver area, Colorado. And I always bring his name up. I always bring J.R. bishop's name up. So I want to say, my freshman year in high school, there was a coaching change. I went to Naperville Central, which was the. The older school in town, if you will. It was Central, then North. Since then, there's some newer schools, but our school had hired Junior Bishop from Indianapolis, Indiana, and he coached at one of the Lawrence Northern, Lawrence Central schools, and he came kind of pretty accomplished. Now, Naperville was a big. It was a 6A school. And when that hire took place, you know, this is 1979, he kind of was ahead of the curve a little relative to throwing the football. And so what he brought to our high school program was this excitement of a new offense, of a passing game. He had a camp in the off season, and we would go to that camp. And our school was 6A. And so generally speaking, we had a freshman team, we had a sophomore team. And it wasn't until you were a junior or senior did you play on the varsity team. So I was the starting quarterback on our sophomore team, and I had Junior. He taught English, and so I had him for English. So I wasn't. I was actually playing for our sophomore team. He oversaw the whole program and was the head varsity coach. And long story short, I got a D on a paper, and he grabbed me after class, and he said, you know, I just. This is unacceptable. And. And I listen, he. He had. There was a way about him. You know, you wanted to please him. And he said, I'm going to I'm not going to start yet tomorrow night. I think it was a Thursday, because we were playing Friday night, and I was like. I was kind of surprised. And he said, you know, you're going to. You're going to sit for the first half, and holy cow. When. When. So something like that happens, it's not the fact that you miss or don't start a game. It's that when everyone asks you, hey, are you all right? Were you sick? And you're like, no, I got a D on an English paper. It. It. It was that. So it was a. It was just a small lesson for a sophomore in high school in a sophomore football game. But it resonated with me that, like, I got it. And I think the year after we won the super bowl, you know, I think the greatest gift a parent can get from somebody is a counselor, a music teacher, somebody, a sports coach, somebody that loves their child for a period of time as much as do as the parent, you know, in other words. And you. You might have your child go through all their formal schooling, and there might be one, maybe two if you're lucky, of these, like, difference makers, you know, and he was one of those guys. So after we won the super bowl, you know, I look back on, like, the impact he had, and then my college coach and a few others, and I remember getting replica Lombardi trophies and sending them this trophy, but more importantly, a note saying, hey, I really appreciate you being a part of this. And without that spot, you know, with each of these individuals, I don't know that it's possible. And so he was one of those guys for me, as a high school, you know, when you're in high school and you're young, we're all looking. We're all kind of, you know, flowing down the river, and then all of a sudden, there's someone that points you in a direction and gives you a little bit more purpose. And he did that. All right.
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B
So talking about college, Eastern Illinois, known as Eastern Airlines. You're. You're a pretty good quarterback. You threw for 509 yards one game, over 10,000 yards total. When you were there was a dream to make it and the pros and then explain the Bears and then high ended up in.
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A
Yeah, I'll take you through it. So look, in high school, I didn't start until my senior year. And so now being said, we had a real good season. I got recruited. I had a number of opportunities to play for a scholarship and chose Eastern Illinois. And I was just on that campus with Mike Shanahan, Jimmy Garoppolo and Tony Romo, we all went to the same school, but we had a snowstorm on our recruiting trip and we were there an extra day and a half, two days. And most of us that were there during that extended recruiting trip ended up signing there because it was a little unusual. Al Moldy then came in, was our coach. He too was one of those guys that was real important in my development. I was a better college player, I think, than a high school player. I mean, I started and we had success in high school, but it was for a year and at Eastern, you know, I had a chance to start for three years 10,000 yards and well, and it wasn't just the passing yards. To credit al moldy again, JR Bishop brings a passing game in the late 70s when everyone else is running the football, and then Al Moldy comes in and begins to experiment with some one back offense in the early 80s again, that's kind of a, if you look back then, what people were doing, it wasn't that. So I was lucky to be a part of two really smart football guys. And obviously we had really good team success. We threw for a lot of yards. And I think, to answer your question, I think people always said, did you know you wanted to play? And I just knew I didn't want to leave. Like, in other words, I don't know what plan B was. So when I finished college, 1987 was the year of like, all right, I try out with the Chiefs one day with a workout and come back and sign up for the Arena League. My contract gets picked up by the Canadian League. This is all happening in the early summer of 87. I'm up with the Ottawa Rough Riders as a backup, so I'm not playing one. I get cut from Ottawa, come back, then there's a player strike during the 87 season. I've got three games where I'm with the, the Bears, which is where I'm, where I'm from. And then, yeah, and then there's a period where I'm painting condominiums, I've got my degree. And this is the time where my mom begins to say, hey, your friends are getting married and everyone has health insurance but you, and what's the plan? And I, I think I knew in the back of my head, going back to high school with Junior, he used to always say to me, you're going to be a good coach when you finish playing. So it's pretty powerful when a teacher or someone like a coach Bishop tells you what he thinks you're going to be. It can kind of move you that way. If you're like, if you think that, then I think that. So I finished in 87 and it was 98. 88. I drove a Chevy Cavalier from Chicago to San Diego State to become a graduate assistant. And then the coaching, the coaching quest or career begins.
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B
Let's Talk about the 800 pound plane ticket from Lancaster and then your interview for the UNLV job. What was. We always prepare for job interview, but I think this one may have caught you by surprise a little bit. Yeah.
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A
So I'm playing over in London in a small league and I now know, hey, it's time. This is like the fourth league and we're still in the same, you know, we're in the same year. So in my mind I wanted to be a college coach. In the avenue to be a college coach is to find a graduate assistant position, which is, you know, almost like an intern position. And I begin making some calls from London as the 88 season's beginning. So this is going to be the spring of 87, early summer of 87, because I know our season is going to end over there mid summer. And I have a call back from unlv. Coach Nunley was the head coach at unlv and Dino Babers, there were a few. There's always a few contacts that you know or people you've met, but I have to find a flight to get there. They're like, hey, we'd love to visit with you. And it's a graduate assistant position. So they're like, tell us when you can be here. And I'm like, well, give me two days, I'll be there. And so I remember going into a travel agency in Leicester, England and lady reads me, here's the cost, it's going to be £810. And I'm like, ah, you know, that's like, all right, so I have enough money to afford it. I go to Vegas, connect in St. Louis, have quick interview. And I know that they've got to be thinking, I'm just like, man, if this guy came from London, he told us he'd be here in two days and he's in Las Vegas. Certainly they knew I was interested in the job, but they had a couple other guys they had to visit with and. And then I kept thinking, did I answer a question wrong? Why didn't I get offered a graduate assistance job, a GA's position, when I just spent $820 or pounds to get there? So I fly back and I'm going to hear from them in about four or five days. Meanwhile, the same gentleman that helped me secure that interview knew someone at San Diego State. Steve Devine is the coach he knew at San Diego State. Jim Walkenheim was, was my close friend. And I get a call from San Diego State, it's Steve Devine. Same thing. They have graduate assistant positions open in San Diego State. Was, man, a little stronger program than unlv, but I'm just interested in any and all right, I don't have one. And, and he talked about coming out there and I said, coach, I gotta be honest with you. I said, I just got back from Las Vegas and I don't have another 800 pounds to spend to apply to the states. And he made a couple calls, he said, I'll call you back. And he says, look, if you can be here by July 28th, you've got this job. And I said, I want that job.
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B
Let's go back though.
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A
I want that job. I haven't heard anything from Vegas yet.
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B
Okay. Because I want to talk about what happened with the Vegas.
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A
Yeah, I'm taking the bird in the hand rather than the one in bush.
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B
Okay.
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A
I've not heard from Vegas. And so he essentially offers me the job over the phone. I said, I'll be there, I'll be there two days early. I, we're going to finish the season here. I'm going to fly back to Chicago and I'm going to drive my car. And you know, you. I wanted him to know that spot's filled. I've got it. It was great, you know, and had a follow up call from their head coach. And so then two days later, Las Vegas calls and they'd got a position and I'm like, hey, I really appreciate it. But I accepted another position because I hadn't heard back. And that in our industry is pretty common when it comes to graduate assistants. I don't know that there's any head coach losing any sleep over the fact that I did come or not, you.
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B
Know, but wasn't there a question that Wayne, Wayne Nunley. Let's go to that question.
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A
Yeah, so I want to go back.
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B
What's the lesson learned on that question?
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A
Yeah, so my first interview with Vegas and again, I'm as a grad, grad assistant, I get there, I finally get to meet with the head coach and he's like, you know, I've heard a lot of good things about you. I, I just have one question, Sean, if, you know, if one of my assistants asked you to do something, would you follow through with it even if you felt like maybe it was something that, that you knew in your heart of hearts wasn't the right thing to do? And I thought, ah, my first thought was, these guys are cheating here, like. And so I. I wanted him to hear from me that I was going to be loyal to whoever I worked for. And I said, look, you know, whatever you guys ask of me, I'll do. And then Wayne looked at me, he's like, well, it's wrong answer. And then he explained why, but I felt like I had it.
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B
Yeah, why is that?
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A
Well, I mean, he just, he said, look, if someone's asking you to do something that, you know, maybe is wrong, I want you to come to me. And so it's a tough question to ask someone on their first day.
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B
No win.
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A
That's right. But I felt like there were a few guys there that, that knew me, and I felt like Coach Nunley, we laughed about this for years after because he eventually ended up in the NFL, I ended up in the NFL. And we just reflected back on that time. But I thought I'd made a really good impression with him and, and come to find out I did. They just had a couple more candidates to visit with. And in the meantime, this other opportunity came up.
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B
So I think at some point you always want to be the best at what you're doing, right? So you want to be the coach. So at some point you got an opportunity to meet Al Davis. And I want you to talk about the interview there and the McDonald's and the KFC and the craziness of that.
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A
Well, you know, initially we, I think we set goals. And someone asked me this question over the weekend at Eastern, you know, did you always have certain goals? And I think the true answer to it is we're constantly adjusting, you know, because things take place. And my goal was to coach college football. And man, my, like deep down in my belly goal was to be a head coach in the Big Ten in the Midwest and Michigan, I hope. Yep, Michigan was, was certainly one of them. And I'll. I'll circle back to Michigan. So anyway, I wanted to be a. A Big Ten head coach. And. And so that path began. Indiana State, Miami of Ohio, San Diego State, and then finally University of Illinois as an assistant and nonetheless getting the chance to call plays. And I'm getting ready to take a job at Maryland, and I get that call from the Eagles, and so the NFL begins. And then there's that climb. And so I'm going to take you to the Al Davis portion of that climb. And I'm going to take you because I interviewed with Al Davis, the late Al Davis, as an assistant coach under Jon Gruden, to be a part of his staff. But I think you're referencing 2003. I'm now at the Cowboys. We just complete our first season in the program. And that's, you know, Coach Parcels is the head coach. He's. He put together a new staff. I was on that staff. And at the end of the year, he says to me, Mr. Davis, you know, wants to visit with you. And he said, but it's, It's a tough job now. You gotta understand, salary cap, veteran team. He explained some of the challenges. But when you're young and one of 32 are interested in you, you know, you tend to drive like 100 miles an hour and you ignore these road signs. Al was and always was kind of a night owl. So he'd be up 2 in the morning, but then maybe get in at 9:30. Just that's the way his clock was. And I can recall the first time I went west, you know, you're going to gain time, but I think it's, you know, 10:30 at night, and I know it's like 11:30 my time, and I haven't eaten dinner. And he said, hey, are you hungry? And I'm like, yeah, absolutely. He said, well, let's. Let's get some cheeseburgers. And his assistant comes running in, he goes, let's get some cheeseburgers in coleslaw. And. And I thought to myself, because I knew he was talking about McDonald's, and I'm like, McDonald's doesn't sell the coleslaw. You know, you get that at kfc. So I don't say a word. But his assistant knew, and he came back with. He came back with a bag of like 10 cheeseburgers from McDonald's, but the real small ones that you're, you know, our kids eat Happy Meal.
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B
Well, not, not the Happy Meal, but.
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A
But it's the hamburger that's in the Happy Meal, right? All right, so he's got 10 regular cheeseburgers, and then he's got a pint of coleslaw from Kentucky Fried Chicken. And I just remember sitting there in that interview thinking, I'm having Happy Meal cheeseburgers with coleslaw with Al Davis. And he was an interesting guy. He's extremely smart. I mean, he was the only owner that was a general manager of a team. He was the head Coach of a team, the commissioner of a league. So his background in football was certainly well versed. He could, he could talk to you about a lot of different topics and very intimidating. And so, yeah, cheeseburgers with Al. And so I know the interview goes well and I know I'm going to get offered that job. And I have a family vacation to Florida and I'm down at Disney World. That was end of season plan.
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B
You're at the glam Grand Florida Grand Floridian.
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A
And every night Al's calling because he's wanting to put a staff together and he's interviewing other candidates. But I'm like, I know he's offering me the job. I bought a black suit with a silver tie from Joseph A. Bank. And so I'm going 100 miles an hour and I get a call and it's his assistant, their gm, saying, hey, look, Al wants to speed this up. He wants to bring you in at the end of the week. And I'm like, hey, I'm still on this vacation that I. He's like, well, you got to call Al. So I called Mr. Davis up and we talked for a while and I said, you know, Mr. Davis, I'm going to be finished on Sunday with this vacation. I committed to my family for this. I can easily drop them off in Dallas and fly out there to Oakland. And so I do that. And the odd part about that day for me, you know, I'm young with two young children. The morning Sunday in Disney started with breakfast with Winnie the Pooh. You know, you sign up for those breakfasts, the character breakfasts. And anyway, the breakfast ends, we pack up, we fly back to Dallas, I gotta go home, repack, get a coat and tie, get a flight, fly to Oakland. And once again, here I find myself, late night, you know, having one of these crazy dinners with Al Davis. And I'm thinking, this has been one of these like 18 hour days. And it was breakfast with winner Winnie Dinner with Al. That would be the title of the book I'd write if I was going to write something on the Raiders. But no, I, it was, it was. I feel like when we interview and we go through some of these processes, you can't help but experience like great growth. Like there's preparation required, there's, there's things you learn when you go through the interview process. And I came back from that interview and the plan was I'm going to accept this job that following Thursday. And then, long story short, Bill Parcels calls me the morning I get back and he says, Can I talk to you like a father? You know, and he prefaced it, because our prior conversations. He's my boss. He's. So when we have a conversation, he's, like, talking to me as the head coach. He said, I really want to talk to you like a father and give you some advice on this job. And he was against it. And he explained why. He had good reasons. I hung up with him. And then, like 30 seconds later, Jerry Jones calls. And Jerry was at his house in Highland park, and he and I got to talk, and he said he wanted me to come over to the house. And generally speaking, if Jerry's the last guy you see, he's probably going to convince you to stay. And they both did. And it was probably a. I know it was a great decision. So I ended up turning the job down and staying in Dallas. And I don't know what happened to the black. I think I still have the black suit. It doesn't fit. But. But that experience with Mr. Davis, you know, so that was. Call it two days, the first interview, the, you know, week one, and then probably three days, those five days of interviewing with him. I know you come away from that feeling like, I can interview with anyone, because the questions and. And his knowledge was. Was pretty. Pretty impressive.
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B
You're listening to part one of my awesome interview with Sean Payton, one of the best coaches in the history of the NFL and the current head coach of the Denver Broncos. Be sure to tune in next week to part two of my awesome interview with Sean.