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- [00:00]
Brad Lander
Rabbi.
- [00:02]
Rabbi Ami Hirsch
I'm Rabbi Ami Hirsch of the Stephen Wise Free Synagogue in New York.
- [00:05]
Host
And you're listening to in these Times. We are in the midst of an important mayoral campaign in New York City with local, national, and even international ramifications. Brad Lander is New York City's comptroller and a former three term city councilman from Brooklyn's 39th district who's running for the Democratic nomination for mayor of New York City. Controller Lander is also a dedicated Jew steeped in the Reform movement. He grew up in St Louis congregation Sha' Rah Emet, where he was active in the youth group. He taught Sunday school, attended a union for Reform Judaism summer camp, and was a national social action vice president of nfti, the Reform Youth Movement. I'm pleased that he reached out to me to participate in our mayoral forum to share his vision for New York City and to probe deeply into the issues that are important to Americans and American Jews.
- [01:11]
Rabbi Ami Hirsch
New York City Comptroller Brad Lander, welcome to in these Times.
- [01:14]
Brad Lander
Thank you so much. Honored to be here.
- [01:16]
Rabbi Ami Hirsch
It's a pleasure to have you. We're in the midst of a pretty heated New York mayoral campaign. How goes the campaign from your perspective?
- [01:24]
Brad Lander
I love being out there, honestly, every day. This morning I was out in Bed Stuy and I talked to a woman who's on her way to take care of 102 year old patient she's been taking care of for 15 years who she loves, but is worried that her family is just in it to try to get the value of her home when the woman dies, you know, and she's trying to figure out what do I do? Controller or last week I got to be the commencement speaker at CUNY City College. And those kids are incredible. And just like a hundred years ago when it was Jewish immigrant kids, now they're from all around the world. I love the city and when its government is working well, good things can happen. I wish we were talking more about those kinds of issues on the campaign trail because New Yorkers are hungry for a safer, a more affordable, a better run New York City. But I like being out there talking to them. And, you know, the knife fighting of politics is what it is.
- [02:18]
Rabbi Ami Hirsch
You've been in public life for many, many years. What is it that draws people like you to want to be in public life along with what you just described as the knife fighting in politics?
- [02:31]
Brad Lander
Honestly, a lot of it for me is a deep Jewish upbringing and those values both of Tikkun Olam that you're assigned this responsibility to try to repair what's broken and that everyone is created be'tzalamo elohim in God's image. And I always found very motivating. And then you get to New York City. So, you know, I'm from the Midwest. You get to New York City and what an incredible place to be a Jew. And also to meet people from everywhere around the planet and think, what can this city do to make life like this actually work? Because when it's not working, people are really let down if their public schools aren't good for their kids. They're heartbroken when they don't feel safe on the subway. This incredible thing we have isn't working. So when I got to New York, the job I first got was with a community development affordable housing group called the Fifth Avenue Committee. And there mostly were a lot of abandoned buildings that during the fiscal crisis had been abandoned. The city took them over. The city did a terrible job running them, and people were living in abominable conditions. And what they wanted to do was take over their buildings, get them fixed up, and have a safe and decent place to live. And I was 23, like, what did I know? But they saw in me somebody who could help and hired me to help make government work better for them. And that's what I learned how to do, how to help them get the financing and get the permits and work with government. And that meant these mostly, you know, black and Latino working class families, but it's a pretty diverse neighborhood. Park Slope and Gowanus and Red Hook near there. We were able to make huge change and help thousands of people stay in their homes and neighborhoods come back to life. And I fell in love with that. Working together with people, just like, struggling to kind of gut out a decent life. Seeing that New York City government in partnership with nonprofits and people working on the ground could be a vehicle for a common life together. That would mean everybody had a decent home they could afford in a safe neighborhood with a good school for their kids. And I loved doing that. And I just got bit with that public service bug and have been working hard on it ever since.
- [04:44]
Rabbi Ami Hirsch
Do you think politics is a nastier business now than when you first entered?
- [04:50]
Brad Lander
I mean, look, these are not good times. I mean, with Donald Trump sending the National Guard in, in LA and to these other cities and being so polarized and having our. Both our empathy so flattened, but also trusting government at such low levels, and in many cases deservedly so, because it's not actually delivering for people. Yeah, I think it's worse than when I got in. Now, way back when I was working at the Fifth Avenue Committee, I did have a contractor who was in cahoots with the council member at the time, Angel Rodriguez, come try to bribe me, basically. So it's been corrupt and dirty a long time, or parts of it have been corrupt and dirty a long time. But, yes, I think these times are worse. I think the combination of. Of Trumpism and political polarization and weakened trust in government make it worse, you know, and certainly in New York City, you know, add to that things the pandemic did to weaken Trust, things that October 7th has done to weaken trust and make things worse. Yeah, you know, whatever. I. I know we can do better, or I wouldn't be running. There's a lot that's still inspiring, like the kids at the City College commencement I got to speak at last week. But, yeah, I think it's worse than usual.
- [06:10]
Rabbi Ami Hirsch
What do you think are the key issues in this campaign? That is, the primaries are coming to an end in a couple of weeks. And why do you think you're the best candidate to lead the city?
- [06:22]
Brad Lander
You know, my campaign mantra is I'm running to deliver a safer, more affordable and better run New York City. I'll get to Trump in a minute, but I think those are the top three New York City issues. People don't feel safe in their neighborhoods and on the subway, and we've got to confront those issues. And I will end street homelessness for people with serious mental illness, keep Jesse Tish on as police commissioner and confront the public safety problems the city is facing. More affordable is obviously on so many people's minds. People can't afford the rent or imagine they'd be able to buy a home. My own kids, you know, my youngest just graduated from college. They don't think they'd be able to buy a home in the city in the way that my wife and I were able to do when in 1996, we bought a co op for $125,000. Cost of living, childcare, housing, you know, just incomes not keeping up with what it costs to live here. That's been my whole life's work from long before I was in public office. I know how to build and save affordable housing and how to help make the city more affordable. Better run is in. People don't sort of say it this way, but people are fed up with Eric Adams corruption. They want to trust City Hall. They don't want someone who's got crony contractors and corrupt deputy mayors. And I got a 30 year track record of public integrity, cleaning up corruption and making government work for people. So safer, more affordable and better run like what I have. I've got the progressive values that New Yorkers share and, and the management chops to make government work to actually deliver on them. And then I'll just add the Trump layer. I mean, with what's going on right now, New Yorkers need a mayor with the guts to stand up to Donald Trump, with the basic New York Democratic values of wanting to invest in our public hospitals and public schools and affordable housing, what government's supposed to help people do, and with the smarts and strategy to manage our budget in a way that can be effective in the times we're facing. We're not going to have unlimited resources in this era. So what do we do about those cuts? How do we protect basic services? And yeah, that's what I'm offering is maybe a combination of ambitious solutions to our problems that like a progressive New York Democratic vision and a real management experience and chops to actually deliver on my premises.
- [08:47]
Rabbi Ami Hirsch
Can you expand on the threat that you see from Trumpism and the Trump administration and how it would affect the citizens of New York?
- [08:56]
Brad Lander
The first cut they announced they were making was housing vouchers. And there's 8,000 New Yorkers that are going to lose the housing voucher that pays for their homes. And if we don't do something, they're going to be homeless and that'll be 8,000 more homeless families. And it'll wind up costing New York City a lot more money because having people in homeless shelters is way more expensive. That's just one small example. But the budget cuts to health care, to housing, to education are going to affect New Yorkers broadly.
- [09:25]
Rabbi Ami Hirsch
And you think these budget cuts are for the purposes of giving tax cuts to the wealthier Americans? Is that what the trade off is?
- [09:35]
Brad Lander
I mean, the bill that the House passed and that Trump is advocating, that's what it does. Yes, it imposes huge cuts to core services in healthcare, food stamps, housing, and it gives big tax breaks to the rich. Ironically, it gives big tax breaks to the rich more outside of New York than in New York, because the whole salt cap issue is a little more complicated than I first thought. But yes, that is what it does. And whether that's because he wants to reward billionaire donors or just because he's got some idea that like does should slash government because Elon Musk thought it was a good idea, I can't really tell you. I can't see into Trump's head, obviously. But it is going to have real devastating impacts. You know, New York Health and Hospitals gets a quarter of its budget from the federal government. New York city schools get $2 billion. You know, those 8,000 families are already, even without this budget, going to lose their housing vouchers. And then there's a whole set of things that are more about our values. I mean, Jews, immigrant New Yorkers. I went last Thursday with this great group, Immigrant Arc to Observe in immigration court at 290 Broadway. And the three families that I wound up accompanying had what happened to this kid, Dylan Contreras, this New York City school kid who they say, we're dropping your deportation case. That sounds good to you? Except what it really means is they're then stripping you of your asylum application and making you subject to expedited removal. And everybody else that's had that happen has then immediately been picked up by ICE agents and arrested and started to be processed for deportation. So they're like, okay, controller, that just happened to this family. The first one was a 25 year old dad with a two year old kid. Second one was a couple. Third was a couple with two school kids. Can you walk with them out through the building? And they're probably going to be detained, but let's see what happens. And we got in the elevator shaking and lo and behold, I don't know if because I had my NYPD detail with me or just because they knew who I was, or if it was just, you know, whatever, something from above. But I was able to walk with each of those three families out of the building and get them to the subway where they could go reconnect with their families and in one case, their consulate. But, you know, this is the greatest immigrant city the world has ever known, and having federal agents and troops try to strip that from us. You know, of the 8 million New Yorkers, 40% are immigrants or foreign born. 50% live in mixed status households, including 1 million children. And a huge number of them will be subject to these wretched policies.
- [12:24]
Rabbi Ami Hirsch
What is your view on immigration? How do you make the distinction between immigrants who are going through a legal process and undocumented immigrants? And do you think there should be a distinction? And if so, how should the distinction be enforced?
- [12:38]
Brad Lander
I mean, I will say, luckily, I'm not running to be, you know, president or to set immigration policy. I think there's no doubt that the volumes of immigration that happened during the Biden administration have presented enormous challenges for the whole country and the city. I think what I'm focused on is what New York City can do to give people, you know, if you're here, like, it's better if you're working than if you're not working. So you don't have to be in our shelter. And it's better to have your kids in our school so they're learning rather than not learning. There's some basic things New York City should do. Look, everyone is entitled under international law to a credible fear hearing. If you are here and you've applied for asylum, which is at least all those three families that I saw last Thursday, and most of the families we're talking about, you're entitled to a credible fear hearing. And if you don't have a credible fear of persecution, then your asylum case can be denied and sent you sent back to where you were. It's only 20% ish of those who get those hearings who are found to have it. But I don't want to be guessing between the which 1 in 5 would be killed or imprisoned if they go back. That's what due process is about. And the fact that we can't deliver that quickly is not on these families. So we should fix that and we should give people their credible fear hearings in an honest way that respects due process. Those who don't have a credible fear can be sent back, and those who do, we should welcome with open arms. We're very far from that, and that's not New York City policy, but that's how I view it.
- [14:15]
Rabbi Ami Hirsch
Are you worried that what's going on in Los Angeles could happen in New York?
- [14:21]
Brad Lander
Yes, absolutely. I think it likely will.
- [14:24]
Rabbi Ami Hirsch
What would that mean? That there would be Marines on Fifth.
- [14:28]
Brad Lander
Avenue, you know, whether it's National Guard and or active duty Marines sent in. But yes, I mean, I think what it will look like is ratcheted up immigration enforcement targeted in immigrant communities. So not just people like I saw down at 290 Broadway, but at extra aggressive actions in Corona or Elmhurst or, you know, who knows where, some immigrant in the Bronx. There's plenty of immigrant families that will ratchet up protests. And then, yes, I think he's likely to call the National Guard or active duty Marines and to provoke conflict. Trump's goal there is to make people afraid, but also to stoke conflict. And most of the protesters will be peaceful, non violent protesters walking through the streets saying, you know, give people duke process. But some will be agitators and will break property, will throw things at cops, and that will ratchet up levels of conflict, giving Trump more excuse to keep sending National Guard or. Or Marines in hopes of showing scenes of lawlessness. And that's what's happening in Los Angeles. You know, I guess I saw that, you know, two of Eric Adams deputies were out playing golf with Trump and maybe. But I don't. I think he'll do it here because, you know, New York is a place he's very focused on, and I think he'll probably do it here while Eric Adams is mayor. And then I think he'll probably keep doing it. You know, we'll see where we are. January is a long time from now, but the next mayor sure should be ready. And. And I'm getting ready. Part of why I've said, on the one hand, I want to keep Jesse Tisch as police commissioner. I believe she's built a lot of trust inside the NYPD and with New Yorkers. At the same time, I'm going to work hard to make sure that the NYPD does a good job of distinguishing between those folks who are engaged in genuinely nonviolent protest or civil disobedience and those who are agitators and doesn't give an excuse, like those who are agitators who are breaking the law or damaging property, threatening people's safety, should be arrested. But it's also a priority to enable peaceful, nonviolent protest so that you're de. Escalating, standing up against this authoritarian overreach and not giving excuses for even more.
- [17:02]
Rabbi Ami Hirsch
You mentioned the police. You're from the progressive wing of the Democratic Party. I think you proudly describe yourself as a progressive, part of that progressive wing called for, and I think still believes in defunding the police. What's your view on that?
- [17:18]
Brad Lander
Yeah, I've said this a lot on the campaign trail, and, you know, I think progressives, myself included, were slow to respond to rising disorder coming out of the pandemic. And you know what I want to do? We're supposed to have 35,000 officers on the street. Right now we're about 1500 below that, and the number's going down. So I think by January, we'll be 2000ish officers below our budget headcount. And I want to get back to that budget headcount of 35,000 officers. I want to keep Commissioner Tisch on. Police are, of course, needed to get illegal guns off the street, respond to violent crime, deal with hate crimes, and keep Jews and others safe in the face of rising anti Semitic and hate violence. And also, no amount of policing is going to connect mentally ill homeless people to stable housing with services, which is what gets them off the subways and the stoops and sidewalks of our neighborhood. So I've got a detailed plan for ending street homelessness for people with serious mental illness built on the model they're using in Houston and Denver and Salt Lake City, and that we actually used here to end Veterans Street Homelessness 15 years ago. It's called Housing First. Rather than pushing people to go to shelter where they're often uncomfortable, you offer this set of folks direct placement in a supportive housing unit, and it works to keep them stably housed 70 to 90% of the time. So maybe you'd call that a both and strategy policing for violent crime and thoughtful and strategic social services to solve some of the underlying problems that grow into danger if you don't solve them.
- [19:02]
Rabbi Ami Hirsch
So just to make sure that I understood what you were saying, you don't believe in cutting the funding of the police in order to give it to other sectors of society. You believe in both proper police funding and oversight as well as taking care of the social problems. Is that inaccurate?
- [19:21]
Brad Lander
That's exactly right. And, you know, solving. Getting people off the street into stable housing will save money over time because jail and hospital are so expensive. Supportive housing is actually less expensive. So there's no need to cut some other part of the budget to do that. And yes, it's also Jesse Tish is showing the possibility that you can have accountable and fair policing and good policing. Crime has come down every month on her watch. Last month was the first month ever when the NYPD did not dismiss any of the civilian complaint review boards, disciplinary recommendations. So, yes, exactly what you say. Invest in proper policing, support accountability so that you have both effective and fair policing. And that is not simple, but it is the right goal and it's possible. And then invest in the social safety net and opportunity with attention to outcomes. I mean, this is why safer, more affordable and better run is my mantra. It's not like endlessly pumping money into pipe dreams. When I say we will end street homelessness for people with serious mental illness, it's pretty precise. I'd like to end all homelessness, but I'm going to make promises I know I can keep and, you know, show my work, have real outcomes, show people how we're getting it done.
- [20:43]
Rabbi Ami Hirsch
Controller Lander, I'd like to ask you specifically about some of the Jewish issues that are prominent in the campaign. First of all, just for our listeners to understand more about your Jewish upbringing as you. No, I'm a Reformed rabbi. This is a Reformed synagogue. The plurality of American Jews are members of Reform synagogues. So you're in very hospitable terrain here. You've said on several occasions that you're so Jewish you almost became a rabbi or something like that.
- [21:12]
Brad Lander
Oh, it's really true.
- [21:13]
Rabbi Ami Hirsch
Could you give us more background on that?
- [21:15]
Brad Lander
Absolutely. So I grew up in St. Louis, Missouri, in a synagogue that we called Sheremoth, I think you might pronounce it. Shahra met, but Jeffrey Stiffman was the rabbi when I was a youngster.
- [21:27]
Rabbi Ami Hirsch
He's a close friend of mine. I remember him.
- [21:30]
Brad Lander
Jim Bennett's the rabbi there now. Susan Talve officiated at my bar mitzvah. Seven months pregnant with her first kid. You know, is active in synagogue youth group. Went to Jewish summer camp at the Union for Reformed Judaism's camp outside of Indianapolis. In college, I was active at Hillel. I was the National Social Action vice president for the Reform Jewish Youth Movement. I taught Sunday school and, you know, Hebrew school and Jewish music. I was only a SO song leader, but I was a great canoe instructor at Jewish summer camp. You know, one of my big actions as the leader of the Reformed Jewish Youth movement was in 1987. We had the big march for Soviet Jewry on the Mall. And we helped lead the youth contingent for that. And we did a big economic justice kind of anti hunger project. And that really is so much of what launched me into social justice work and then politics. Raising Jewish kids in this city has just been great. And I worry about them like every parent does, but, you know, they both are bar and bat mitzvah here. My daughter just graduated from University of Chicago. She was an intern at the Lower east side Tenement Museum, and she just took a class of Yiddish in college. Like, they love this city and its Jewish history. And I want every Jewish kid to be safe and nourished like they have been. And then all of that history is in the liberal Jewish space. When I ran for city council in 2009, it so happens that the council district that connects Park Slope and Cobble Hill includes a chunk of Borough Park. And so I had a in the heat of politics introduction to ultra Orthodox Jews, almost none of whom voted for me, but with whom I've developed very deep and lifelong ties, arguing a lot about Judaism, but I don't know. One of the people that's my favorite is Rabbi Alex Rapoport, who's the founder of the Masbia Soup Kitchen Network, these kosher soup kitchens. And now he invites me every year to make matzah in his backyard. Matzah Bakery. And what an incredible blessing that is. Now, some of that's hard. I joke when I open events in ultra orthodox spaces, like, such a wonderful thing to be with so many dear friends and cousins, none of whom vote for me. And those conflicts have always been challenging. And then October 7th made them a lot more so. And my Israel politics. You know, so early in this campaign, Jewish Insider, which is a conservative Jewish publication, dug up these letters that I wrote in 1990 when I was a college junior at the University of Chicago to my hometown Jewish paper, the St. Louis Jewish Light. And they had published cartoons depicting Palestinian leadership as rats, basically. And I wrote the editor saying, please don't do that. And I said, look, I said this in 1990, but it's true today. I love the vision of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state as envisioned in the Declaration of Independence, open to the. In gathering of exiles and founded on the vision of our prophets and, and with full social and political equality for everyone there. And Even then in 1990, I said, I think that will take an end to Israel's occupation of the west bank and Gaza. I say that not thinking you're going to support that on the editorial page of the St. Louis Jewish Light, but as someone who loves Israel and wants to see it thrive. And those have been my politics ever since then. And there are people that agreed and disagreed with them in 1990 that has gotten exposed excruciatingly more difficult since October 7th. But even now, the place I mostly go to express my point of view on these issues is called Israelis for Peace. They do a vigil in Union Square every Sunday at 5pm calling for the release of the hostages, calling for a ceasefire and the end of the war and for humanitarian aid. We hold up pictures of the hostages and their families, we hold up pictures of kids in Gaza. And almost everyone who walks by yells at us, either from the right or the left. And I can't tell you, you know, whatever, that's maybe the most politically popular position. But what I can tell you is I've had it for 30 years. To me, it's very Jewish. I talk to a lot of Jews who disagree and welcome the dialogue as grounded as we possibly can in our values and our collective safety.
- [26:04]
Rabbi Ami Hirsch
Do you remember where you were on October 7th when you first heard the news? And what was your reaction?
- [26:10]
Brad Lander
So I was in Philadelphia for like a one day or two day kind of political conference. And I was headed that evening to a wedding, a Jewish wedding in upstate New York. And I woke up and Just kind of opened my computer and started reading. And I mean, I just, at first I couldn't believe it. I mean, now we're were sadly, like steeped in it, but I just, it took a while to like really fully comprehend how devastating it was. So I was like heartbroken and bereft and I knew instantly how bad it was going to be politically, I have to say. Unfortunately, like, I, I wasn't, sadly, I wasn't. I mean, I was so angry the next day when there was that rally in Times Square, but I knew even on, on Saturday that the politics were going to be terrible.
- [26:58]
Rabbi Ami Hirsch
Help us out on that, because I can talk personally and from what I gather from my conversations with hundreds of people who I interact with all the time, the immediate protests against Israel, even before Israel began to respond militarily, they were still fighting off terrorism inside Israel's border. That did take us by surprise. It took me by surprise. The vehemence of that and the immediacy of that, and I think you're saying it didn't really take you that much by surprise. Help us figure that out. Why is that?
- [27:32]
Brad Lander
So, I mean, I guess I just thought, unfortunately two things were likely. One, I mean, I, you know, I live broadly on the political left. I mean, my coalition is left and center. I'm controller because people who voted either for Maya Wiley or for Catherine Garcia for mayor voted for me for controller. So I know people both in more progressive and more liberal or moderate spaces. But I see the left enough to know that people were instantly going to be blaming Israel basically, and how horrible that would feel to other progressives who care about the human rights of Palestinians. But at that moment were devastated and just needed people to say, hey, Israeli Jews are human beings and this is a hideous terrorist attack. Just say that. But I, I unfortunately knew that that was, you know, I mean, when it only took 24 hours for it to happen. But I just sadly was not surprised by it. And then also I just, I thought it was pretty likely that Netanyahu would hugely overreact and that the space that there could have hopefully been, because there was always going to be that kind of leftist, anti Israel thing. But I do think there was a period when there might have been more solidarity from around the world if there could have been a way of responding to Hamas that didn't cause so much devastation. And I just thought both things would happen. I thought the leftist response would be bad and rip the left apart and make me angry. And I thought Netanyahu would do more or less what he's doing, done. And I wish, I mean, I really wish I had been wrong on both counts, but. But I was not surprised by either.
- [29:21]
Rabbi Ami Hirsch
So you weren't particularly surprised, I would gather, I would extend by that on some of the university campuses that we saw in the immediate protests that arose, were you surprised by the response of the administrators of some of these universities, some of which are in New York and are considered among the elite institutions of higher learning in the world?
- [29:43]
Brad Lander
I hoped they would do better, I guess. I don't. I'm not sure what my expectations were. It does feel like there was such. And some campuses have found ways, you know, it feels like, like what they did at Dartmouth. I don't know. I looked a few places that it seemed like they were able to find to walk this line. Right. To keep you safe, to provide opportunities for people to have free speech. And my daughter's at University of Chicago. That's a place where even the progressives value the free speech traditions. And so I hoped for better. If those administrators had figured out how to do better, maybe things could have gone differently here.
- [30:23]
Rabbi Ami Hirsch
Can I ask you about some of the response in the Democratic Party, in particular, on the left of the Democratic Party? There's been some disillusionment in the Jewish community amongst liberal American Jews who have supported the Democratic Party for their entire lives. Really? At least two thirds of American Jews have supported Democrats in every way voting for them, as well as financial support since the end of World War II, since the days of FDR. I think it's fair to say that you're a progressive Zionist.
- [30:55]
Brad Lander
Yes.
- [30:55]
Rabbi Ami Hirsch
Are you concerned about the anti Zionism in the progressive left?
- [31:02]
Brad Lander
Yes. I mean, I'm concerned about the future of liberal Judaism in general. I gotta be honest, I feel like this has just been devastating. And as a, you know, I call myself a progressive or a liberal Zionist. I love, I'm inspired by, I believe in the vision of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state. Now, I'm fiercely critical of this government and of the occupation and even of the way it has prosecuted and is prosecuting the war. But first I want our kids, our young people to believe in that vision. And I'm worried that right now that's hard for them to do. It's on us to show them that vision, in my opinion. And then it's incumbent on people to make the humanity of their politics clear. I support, you know, the two state solution, the end of the occupation, a free and independent Palestine alongside a safe and secure Israel. But obviously when shouting free Palestine is what that killer in Washington and the flamethrower in Boulder do. It's incumbent on people to present a politics you can stand up for Palestinian human rights without killing or attacking Jews. And this is a time when it's important for people to be thoughtful in their politics wherever they are. And it's not a good time for thoughtfulness. And I'm worried about what that does in so many ways. I'm worried what that does for progressive politics, for people that are genuinely want to protect human rights for everyone and have to reckon with what's going on in Gaza, but also reckon with the rise in anti Semitism. I want our institutions of liberal higher education to thrive and I'm worried about them and I'm worried for our democracy because on the one hand, Jews don't feel safe and many feel frustrated with the Democratic Party. But on the other hand, Donald Trump is weaponizing anti Semitism against institutions that have been critical for Jewish thriving like higher education and due process and liberal democracy. And that's bad for everyone and in my opinion, very bad for Jews.
- [33:22]
Rabbi Ami Hirsch
I have two more questions just to wrap the issue of anti Semitism. I don't remember a time when Jews in America have been so fearful, including Jews in New York, from physical assault, but also intellectual and job related biases and so on. Is that your understanding and your experience as well? And two, what would you do as mayor that is not being done now?
- [33:52]
Brad Lander
It's definitely true. I mean, I just, I haven't seen Jews feeling so afraid in all these ways. And you're right, some of it is, you know, after D.C. and Boulder, you go to a Jewish communal event and you're just looking over your shoulder. You're like physically anxious. And some of it is in the rhetoric and the language because, you know, maybe we could have been having a conversation about what people mean by globalize the intifada, but it's impossible for me and others not to hear that as like it's open season on Jews. So yes, I mean, people are feeling that fear and I'm feeling that and I'm feeling that fear. What I would do. I've got a really comprehensive and detailed plan for responding to anti Semitism and hate crimes with more resources to the NYPD Hate Crimes Task Force and the Mayor's Office of Hate Crimes. If you want a police car outside your synagogue on Shabbos, it should be easy to get. Richard Aborn at the Citizens Crime Commission has some really good online tools for trying to get at extremism as it escalates. It's kind of amazing what they can do now using kind of AI and find people who are being radicalized and try to target, in some cases it's a mental health issue. So I think there's some things we can do there and then there is a lot more to do in our schools and through education and with mayoral leadership. And I would do it different than Eric Adams has done it. You know, he's got a like, I'm on your side. And I would have more of a we are going to need to bring people together and be able to have some dialogue. So I'm going to be more like trying to explain to people. When you say globalize the intifada, I don't know, maybe in your mind you mean defend the human rights of Palestinians. But let me tell you why. What Jews hear is open season on Jews. And let's try to have some dialogue that at least identifies who wants to be on the side of humanity and keeping people safe and try to expand that. I mean, there are going to be hate mongers and people trying to promote conflict. But I think in addition to providing basic law enforcement and safety, a part of the job of the mayor is modeling a dialogue that emphasizes that B'tselem Elohim, that let's be more human to each other idea.
- [36:17]
Rabbi Ami Hirsch
There is some kind of accusation that as comptroller you instituted a policy of disinvestment from Israeli corporations or Israel bonds or so on. Is that true? And if so, why did you do that? If it's not true, here's an opportunity to respond.
- [36:33]
Brad Lander
It's not true. Investments in Israel have grown under my watch from about 275 to 3,325 million dollars, like grown by 15%. That's most certainly not divestment. That's more investment. And they're in great Israeli companies. We don't, as a matter of course, invest in foreign sovereign debt. We don't invest in Canada bonds or French bonds like we, you know. So we're not holders of Israel bonds, but we're invested in many Israeli companies through equities investments, through real estate, through private equity, through private credit. I'm proud of those investments. I have always opposed bds and I always will.
- [37:20]
Rabbi Ami Hirsch
My last question to you is, do you have a final message to the American Jewish community, the New York community and all of our listeners on the eve of very important New York mayoral primary?
- [37:31]
Brad Lander
First, I want to thank you for giving me this opportunity and for providing the leadership that you have been providing I mean, I love this city and I love what the city has been for Jewish New Yorkers. I think that's a model of what it can be for all New Yorkers. We're not always going to agree with each other. You know, it's a city with a lot of profound differences. I joke that I think Jews have been having many of the same arguments for 2600 years, since the first exile in Babylon, when some Jews were like, let's get back to Judea, and others were saying, hey, have you seen they got nightclubs and libraries here? Let's check them out. And, you know, in some ways that, like, more particularist, you know, strand and that more universalist strand have been arguing with each other Talmudically for across the generations. And, and I feel very strongly about, you know, I'm a more universal, more liberal point of view on those things. But I love the debates and the arguments. I want us to be able to have them safely. For that to happen, you need a safer, more affordable and better run city. You need a mayor who will make government work effectively to deliver for you. That's what I've been doing my whole career. That's what I can do. If you rank me first on June 24th. And I'm really grateful for the opportunity to put myself out there. And thank you for the conversation.
- [38:51]
Rabbi Ami Hirsch
Controller Brad Lander. Good luck on the remainder of the campaign and thank you for giving us this time time, and I look forward to conversing with you many more times down the road.
- [39:02]
Brad Lander
Thank you, Ami.
- [39:08]
Rabbi Ami Hirsch
I think that Brad Lander really could have been a good rabbi.
- [39:12]
Host
I hope he considers that a compliment. At least it is intended as such. Controller Lander is smart, eloquent, personable, and from childhood has had a strong Jewish identity rooted in Judaism's concern for society at large. We spend considerable time in our conversation speaking about the plight of immigrants. On the one hand, it is imperative for any nation to control its borders. A country that has lost control of who enters its territory is a country that has relinquished much of its sovereignty. The failure of the previous administration to secure America's borders contributed significantly to Donald Trump's victory. Furthermore, it is right and proper for America to vet whom it allows to enter and under what conditions. There is a limit to what any one country can do to relieve human suffering. Honesty requires us to acknowledge that uncontrolled immigration has the potential to destabilize society. Some really bad people ride the wave of mass immigration. We have seen that in parts of Europe and the United States we should prevent people with anti American, anti Western or anti Semitic views from entering our country. At the same time, mindful of the fear, even terror that some immigrants are experiencing now in the United States and New York City, it is important for me to emphasize Judaism's approach to the foreigner, the weakness and the dispossessed. You shall not wrong a stranger or repress him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. The Torah states, you know the soul of a foreigner, for you were foreigners in the land of Egypt. To bear witness to the struggle, pain, vulnerability and universality of the human condition, and to work to relieve this suffering is also a Jewish value. I am not opposed to reasonable restrictions on immigration, but we must cease this callous cacophony of contempt, its intention or effect to dehumanize immigrants and desensitize us. Try to step into the shoes of the dispossessed. To step into the other's shoes is the beginning of morality and the first step of compassion. Try to feel the desperation. It should be familiar to Jews. We don't have to go all the way back to Egypt. Just think back two or three or four generations. We Jews were those people, the wretched refuse that no one wanted. The world shut its doors to us too. Still living among us are survivors of the great inferno. Do not allow the three generations since to dim your memory or dull your moral sensitivity. Several years ago, I met one remarkable Afghani refugee in Salonika, Greece, who reminded me that the difference between us is that he was born in Afghanistan and I was not. Most American Jews live here because of a decision of an ancestor who, whether by foresight or fortune, decided to leave before the gates of hell bolted shut. Were it not for that decision, we would not be alive. We would never have been born. Many of our ancestors who disembarked on Ellis island could not speak English. Had that been a condition of immigration, we would not likely be Americans or even alive. The very arguments voiced against immigrants today were used against us yesterday. As we enter this intense and historic election season in New York City, bear in mind Judaism's values. Judaism is for freedom, the expansion of human liberties. We despise racism, misogyny, xenophobia, intolerance and hatred. We are for justice and righteousness. We are for peace. We are for tolerance, acceptance and love. And we are for mercy. The entire body of prophetic values may be reduced to the one insistence that the weak and the dispossessed be treated with respect and dignity. Early in the book of Genesis, the Bible describes the murder of Abel by his brother Cain. Am I my brother's keeper? Cain asks. His question was sincere. How was he to know who taught him morality? To respect the life and dignity of his brother? Humanity had just begun. These were the only two brothers on earth, the entire rest of the Bible and everything, literally every word of the bottomless sea of post biblical Jewish tradition is dedicated to answering Cain's yes, you are your brother's keeper. All of Judaism is devoted to helping the human creature climb out of the primordial moral swamp into which we were born and to pacify the destructive impulses of our nature, to tame the beast. Until next time. This is in these times.