She Started at 60. She Started at 15. Two women. Two very different paths onto the mat. Same reasons for staying. Ava Govek walked into Utopia at 14. Six years later, she's a four-stripe blue belt, Utopia's former sales director, and one of the most experienced women in the room. Deb Pokel walked in at 59. She turned 60 last fall. She just hit her one-year anniversary, runs a Sport Clips franchise with 110 barbers across 13 locations, and has dropped into six other gyms while traveling for business. Perry sits down with both of them to talk about what it's actually like to train BJJ as a woman. The first-day nerves. The mental barriers. The training partners who get it and the ones who don't. Why "we're not your rest stop" is a line every man in the sport should hear. What happens when your BJJ breakfall shows up on an icy boardwalk. And what the sport gives women, beyond self-defense. This one is honest, funny, and useful. If you've been curious about starting, this is the episode that pulls you closer to the door.

Key Takeaways

Your first day is supposed to feel like that. Both Ava and Deb were terrified, and both came back.
"No is a complete sentence." Ava calls it the most valuable lesson she's learned in six years of BJJ.
Men: nobody is your rest stop. If you're rolling with a woman because you want a break, your training partners can feel it, and the culture suffers.
Deb's first real-life application of BJJ was a sprawl on an icy boardwalk. One year in. Muscle memory kicked in.
Gym culture is what keeps women training. Fundamentals class, the women's chat, and coaches who watch the mat make Utopia feel different.
Size and strength matter less in BJJ than in any other contact sport. They still matter. Train accordingly.
Planting the seed works. Ava and Deb both bring women in by talking about the sport like the journey it actually is.

Guest Bios Ava Govek. Four-stripe blue belt at Utopia, six years in. Started as a teenager, grew up in the academy. Former sales director at Utopia. Graduating with her master's in May. One of the highest-ranking women on the mat and a voice for the women's program. Instagram: @ava.govek Deb Pokel. White belt at Utopia, one year in. 60 years old, turned 60 last fall. Married with five kids and five grandkids. Owns a Sport Clips franchise with 110 barbers and stylists across 13 locations. Trains at Utopia and drops into gyms while traveling for business. Faith-driven, tenacious, still bruised, still showing up. Instagram: @pokeldeb

Listen now and ride the wave.