A Border Runs Through It

Summary

Insight Myanmar Podcast – Episode Summary

Episode Title: A Border Runs Through It
Date: July 24, 2026
Guest: Thomas Chapwon, elder of the Naga community
Host: Insight Myanmar Podcast

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Overview of the Episode

This episode of Insight Myanmar explores the complex history and current situation of the Naga people, an ethnic group whose ancestral lands straddle the border between India and Myanmar (Burma). Featuring a detailed interview with Thomas Chapwon, a respected Naga elder and community leader, the conversation traces the Naga identity, their struggles for recognition and self-determination, the impact of colonial borders, the layered conflicts with both Indian and Burmese authorities, and the deep cultural-spiritual life of his people.

The episode addresses key themes of identity, resistance, peaceful coexistence, spiritual heritage, and the entanglement of local and global forces. Through oral history, personal anecdotes, and reflections, it presents a nuanced portrait of a people whose borders have been imposed rather than chosen.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Historic Roots & Colonial Legacy

• Naga Independence Pre-Colonialism:
  The Nagas considered themselves an independent nation long before British colonization.
  • "Since time immemorial, Naga and this India we were different nation. We have no same or story. We have different language, different culture and different color of skin as well." (Thomas Chapwon, 08:32)
• British Rule and Boundaries:
  The British included only part of Nagaland under its control, with 3/4th remaining autonomous until the 1947 decolonization.
  The Statutory Commission and the Naga Club (formed in 1918) warned the British to "not throw us to the mercy of India, which they never conquered us." (10:51)
• Memorandum & Independence:
  The Naga Club submitted memoranda insisting Nagas determine their own future. Upon India’s independence, the Naga National Council declared Naga independence on August 14, 1947—one day before India did.
  • "We declared independence on 14 August 1947. Before India become independent. India become independent on 15 August 1947. So one day ahead we declare independence." (Thomas Chapwon, 23:02)

2. Encounters with Indian and Burmese Authorities

• Negotiations & Broken Agreements:
  Mahatma Gandhi allegedly recognized their right to self-determination, but Indian PM Nehru rejected any Naga independence ("Even if the sky fall and blood run red in India, I don't care. I will not allow India they breach the Naga to be independent.") (Nehru, as recounted, 19:55)
• Divided by Colonial Borders:
  The British-drawn boundary in 1914 separated Nagas between India and Burma. The Nagas view this division as artificial and destructive to their cultural unity.
  • "We were as a nation and as a people without no boundary... since 1914 the British make it the boundary and... India and Burma divided our nation without the knowledge of our people." (Chapwon, 26:23)

3. Current Aspirations & Political Realities

• Not Asking for, But Requiring Recognition:
  Chapwon emphasizes that the Nagas are not rebels demanding independence—they are requesting India and Myanmar to recognize an independence they already consider intrinsic.
  • "We are not demanding independence from you. Just we are coming here to have a free relationship." (Thomas Chapwon, 19:44)
  • "Requesting... to recognize our independent only, because we are not demanding independence from India or others." (Thomas Chapwon, 39:05)
• Appeals to Western Christian Nations:
  Given their widespread conversion to Christianity (mainly Baptist), Nagas hope for recognition and support from Western nations on religious solidarity grounds.
  • "We would like to request to recognize us our right. We are thinking that." (37:02)

4. Formation and Evolution of Naga Armed Resistance

• A Response to Military Aggression:
  Both Indian and Burmese military interventions led to the formation of armed groups among the Nagas.
  • "When India government Nehru sent his armed group to Nagaland to invade Naga Nation in 1955... the Nagas started forming... Naga army... to defend our nation." (47:16)
• Cooperation and Coordination Across the Border:
  For many years, the Naga armed struggle was a unified movement across the artificial colonial boundary. They trained together and shared resources, including support from other groups and, at times, China (53:37).
• Fragmentation & Internal Division:
  From 1980, factions developed, which Chapwon says were fueled by Indian divide-and-rule strategies and individual leaders' ambitions, especially referencing figures like Moiwa (57:56–81:24).
• Efforts at Re-unification:
  Despite these divisions, Chapwon remains hopeful for future unity:
  • "We will be one one day... many people are understanding now. So time is coming to be one..." (58:13)

5. Contemporary Conflict with Burmese Military (Tatmadaw) & 2021 Coup Dynamics

• Militarization and Repression:
  Burmese military posts multiplied in Naga territory since the 1990s, leading to violence, village burnings, forced conversions to Buddhism, and destruction of churches.
  • "Even bombing and burning down the villages. Most of the villages burned down by the Burmese army and also the churches. And even the Christian people forced to convert to Buddhism in our area." (69:13)
• Drug Trafficking as Control:
  Burmese authorities have allegedly facilitated drug trafficking and addiction among Naga youth to weaken the community (62:16).
• Formation of New Armed Groups Post-coup:
  After Myanmar's 2021 military coup, new organizations like the Eastern Naga Defense Army have emerged, aligning with the Kachin Independence Army (KIA) and PDFs (People’s Defense Forces) fighting the junta.
  • "After the coup, after formation of ENNO Eastern Naga National Organization, then we form this Eastern Naga Defense Army." (93:02)

6. Cultural Life, Traditions, and Community Solidarity

• Village-Based Democracy and Spirituality:
  Naga society traditionally governed by democratic village councils, with strong community ties and pre-Christian animist spirituality evolving into near-universal Christianity after missionary influence. (30:25–31:30)
• Cuisine and Communal Living:
  Rich descriptions of Naga food traditions illustrate community solidarity—sharing wild game with the village, cooking over bamboo and leaves, communal labor in agriculture and building, and mutual support in times of illness.
  • "If we get any meat from the jungle, sharing each other and eat together... In our culture... we never sell the meat, but just share the meat with the villagers." (100:54–105:48)
• Values of Care and Mutual Aid:
  Stories of villagers aiding one another with labor, food, and support in sickness show the intertwined social and cultural fabric of Naga identity.

7. Personal Stories of Survival and Resistance

• Surviving a Bear Attack:
  Chapwon shares a vivid story of surviving a bear attack—ascribing his survival to divine intervention and reflecting on the meaning of faith and resilience.
  • "I pray to God that seek my soul and forgive my soul... Bear left me alone and run away." (74:08–76:04)
• Repeated Assassination Attempts:
  He details surviving assassination attempts from both Burmese and Naga factions due to ideological differences, especially standing against socialist-influenced splits and refusing to abandon democratic and Christian values.
  • "Many times they attempted to shoot me. They attempted to kill me many times..." (83:39)
  • "We cannot accept this socialism. That is the main reason... Naga people become this Christian people. And also formerly they were enjoying this democracy. So they wouldn't accept this socialism." (77:20)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Colonial Impositions

  "We were as a nation and as a people without no boundary. But since 1914 the British make it the boundary and according to the boundary... India and Burma divided our nation without the knowledge of our people."
  — Thomas Chapwon, [26:23]

• On Gandhi’s Promise

  "If the Nagasara are not Indian, Naga territory does not belong to India, then it is okay... you have the full right to be independent outside India."
  — Mahatma Gandhi (as recounted by Chapwon), [16:47]

• On Indian Intransigence

  "Even if the sky fall and blood run red in India, I don't care. I will not allow India they breach the Naga to be independent."
  — Jawaharlal Nehru (as recounted), [19:55]

• On Survival and Faith

  "I was with my rifle, I shoot it, but then my bullet missed... So bear come to attack me... I pray to God... Bear left me alone and run away."
  — Thomas Chapwon, [74:08–76:38]

• On Cultural Resilience

  "In Naga, who is a hunter, oh, many heads are there in his house... We never sell the meat, but just share the meat with the villagers. That is our system."
  — Thomas Chapwon, [100:54–102:53]

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Important Timestamps

• [02:32–28:13]: Historical overview of the Naga struggle—from colonial times through Indian and Burmese independence.
• [30:25–39:50]: Origins and religious transformation of the Naga people; relationship with Christian nations.
• [41:08–54:18]: Rise of armed Naga resistance, cross-border unity, and subsequent fragmentation.
• [69:13–71:38]: Burmese military expansion, forced conversions, and systematic repression.
• [74:08–77:07]: Bear attack anecdote – faith, survival, and meaning.
• [83:39–87:43]: Surviving factional and military assassination attempts, ideological differences.
• [93:02–99:44]: Naga alignment with ethnic resistance after the Myanmar coup; discussion of possible futures.
• [100:54–109:28]: Deep dive into Naga cuisine, communal life, and cultural traditions.

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Closing Reflections

Through Thomas Chapwon’s detailed testimony, A Border Runs Through It provides a comprehensive view into the centuries-old struggle, enduring spirit, and cultural vibrancy of the Naga people. The episode not only documents political demands and armed resistance, but also centers the human stories of resilience, communal aid, and faith that have allowed the Naga identity to persist despite the divides imposed by colonialism and modern nation-states.

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Transcript

[Thomas Chapwon]

Sam.

[Podcast Host]

At its core Insight Myanmar is about connection. We strive to bridge divides and foster understanding by sharing the stories of those living through extraordinary times. Connection fuels empathy and empathy inspires action. So whether it's through tales of spirituality, reflections on cultural heritage or accounts of people's struggles against oppression and their aspirations for a better future, we aim to forge connections towards a shared humanity that transcends borders. Let's start to build on that connection with the interview that follows.

[Thomas Chapwon]

Okay, this I was born in 1945 or 49 on September December 21 and at NASA and NASA village. My father Rangnam, my mother Sak Tung and I was in. I was brought up at the NASA village and at the age of 8 I studied for schooling in Shimbuya. So I graduated this matriculation from Kachina. Kachin State? Yeah. And in 1975 I joined the Naga National Council. The Naga National Council was formed on 2nd February 1946. At that time we were this western part of Nagaland was under the British colonial rule including with the with India here and from there these Naga people Naga national leaders decided to declare independence before India and Burma were granted independent year. So because the Nagas were independent people from time immemorial these British included our land in 1882. From there the Naga started fighting with the British colonia people and intermittent war with the British lasted for 48 years. So in 1880 only the British of peace with the Nagas and we have a verbal peace with the British British asked for written agreement but the Naga national leaders refused for the written agreement. So we have no written agreement and treaty with the British and the Nagas. This 1/4 of Naga territory was under the British since then on and this won the Waba agreement British asked Naga national leaders that to give them this military base Military base in Nagaland So Naga people told them that if you do not disturb our disturb or interfere in the Naganeshana affair so you can stay here in you can have bears in Nagaland. But after that Warburg agreement this British started to administrate 1/4 of Naga territory Western side but 3/4 of Naga territory remained an amistrate up to 1947 British labels as an amitride territory and free Nagaland Thus included in eastern part of Nagaland and 1929 British Statuary Commission visited our land to know that the Nagas vision for their future. So Naga Club submitted a memorandum to the British Statuary Commission The Naga Club was formed in 1918 on January on January 7 so that Naga Club Naga Club submitted memorandum to the British statutory commission in that state. In that memorandum that Naga started, Naga stated that leave us alone to determine for ourselves as a nation. Then that was very important. And also because the British government that do not throw us to the mercy of India, which they never conquered us. Because since time in memorial Naga and this India we were different nation. We have no same or story. We have different language, different culture and different color of skin as well. So one the British colonial rule only we were included with this under the British. But when the Naga Club submitted this memorandum to the British in British Parliament they have discussed and oh, that was as a. Excluded area. Naga territory excluded area. So directly ruled by the British prince here. And from that so we have different story and different people. Our people decided that we will not be under the British or under the Indian government. Because in those days 1940. In 1941 this Allah dig charter declared that all the colonies should be free. So this India and Burma become assuredly to be free from the British colonial rule. So from there our leaders started to form this Naga national council in 1946. Because with the Naga Club we cannot declare independence officially formally. So the Naga national leader decided to make it this Naga Club to be Naga national council in 1946. So accordingly, the Naga firmly stand to remain as an independent nation. In 1947, this India subcontinent constituent committee came to Nagaland visited Koima under the chairmanship of Kobilat or Bordolui. So this India subcommittee have a meeting with the Naga National Council NNC in May 19 to 21. So there the subcommittee offer the Naga autonomous state under the British under the Indian Union. But Naga blatantly rejected. Because Nagas were independent nation since time in Memoria. At that time British oh no. India yet to be independent. So after that this Naga National Council refused this autonomous state British India government sent another or delegation to to meet the Naga National Council. He was Haidari. He was this governor of Assam. So Akbar Hadri with Akbar Haidri the Naga Naga National Council sign agreement. That was a nine point agreement. We call nine point agreement and also 10 years agreement said because after 10 years the Naga National Council it should be another new agreement or Naga or new agreement or to be free Naga it will be upon the opinion of Naga people it agree. So it was signed. The agreement was signed on. So this is June 1946. But at the same evening this Agba Haidri Kritin Naga national leader. If you continue to reject to join the Nagane to join Indian Union. Then India government will force will use force to make the Nagas join the Indian Union. So from there the future of Naga is not uncertain. So that Naga National Council send some of the legal leaders led by our national leader, EZ Fizou. So they went to Delhi and meet Mahatma Gandhi on 19th July 1947. There they said the point for the for talking with the Mahatma Gandhi. So the Nagas have written the Nagas are not Indian people. The Nagad territory does not belong to India. The Nagas will declare independence on Oti Nagos written in the document or in the letter. So the meeting was. The meeting with Mahatma Gandhi took place there. And Madame Gandhi see the letter and it is Finnish. If you said the Nagasarana Indian Naga territory does not belong to India, then it is okay, it is Finnish. You have the full right to be independent outside India. The British are leaving India because we don't want to be under India or under these British. So they are living. So if the Nagasaki want to be under India, then you are free to be independent outside Indian Union. He said. But Naga people give him a reply to him that But Akbar Hadri treated us. If the Nagas refused to join the Indian Union then the Indian government will use force the Nagas to join India. So Madhyamagadi told the leaders Naga leaders that no India has no right to use force India Naga people to join the India by arm. If it is so, I will say India people that shoot me first before you shoot the Naga. One of the Naga he told. So after coming back from this Delhi, the Nagas declared independent on 14 August 1947. Before India become independent. India become independent on 15 August 1947. So one day ahead we declare independence. But India after the death of Mahatma Gandhi who become first prime minister of Nehru he changed the policy. So we try to understand our stand. So our people once again meet Madhyama this Nehru in 1952. On March 12, there Nehru bank he's stable and shouted that even if the sky fall and blood run red in India, I don't care. I will not allow India they breach the Naga to be independent. He shouted, treating the Naga people. But our leader Az Pizzou nonchalantly calmly told him. Mr. Nehru, we are not demanding independence from you. Just we are coming here to have a free relationship India and Naga. India has nothing to give because we are free people from them in Memoria. And that was 1952. And in 1953 Nehru Prime Minister of India and Uno Prime Minister Obama visited Nagaland they are at the meeting before starting of the meeting this Assam DC declared in the meeting that the Nagas should not be allowed to Talk with the 2 nationally 2 leaders in this Nehru and Uno and the Naga will not allow to submit any document to them. This is declared in the meeting before starting of the meeting. So the Nagas think that oh, if we are not allowed to talk with our guests then what should we do? Why should we attend this meeting? So the Naga people, All the Naga people it was saying that modern 10 10,000 Naga people there in the meeting to welcome these two leaders and also Nagas want to submit a memorandum to them to recognize our independence. But they said they will not allow us to submit any document any memorindum. So the Nagas Warhol from the meeting no Naga remained at the meeting and from there after the meeting Nehru and Uno Flo to come to and come to there was airfield so they flow to the and from there they started to divide Naga Nation Naga people they ignored the will of Naga people so they divided the Naga nation Following the Kassori boundary of the British. The boundary was made by the British drawn by the British in 1914 only before that we have no boundary. We were as a nation and as a people without no boundary. But since 1914 the British make it the boundary and according to the boundary. India and divided our nation without the knowledge of our people. So from the beginning in 1929 we have submitted the British Statutory commission that to leave us alone not to turn us to the Indian origin and Indian political origin. And also in 1947 the NNC have written a memorandum to the Prime Minister of British at that time at least Clement who was visiting Koima in 1929 under the leadership of this Simon. So we have written including enclosed this 1929 document and again to British Prime Minister saying that leave us alone to determine us again for ourselves. Again as we have stated in 1929 do not turn us into the ocean of Indian politics. We have written again so as we have written formally we have written all document that and also. We saying that without the knowledge of us do not give us our nation to other nation that we have stated. So we think that without the knowledge of Naga people British also cannot hand over us to India Obama because now India and Bama they are falsely claiming that when the British granted them independent then Naga territories who are handed over to them. They are falsely claiming but we hope that without the knowledge of people these British have no right to hand over territory into other nations that we believe that that is our story. So now the problem between India and Burma, the problem is not. It is not we are demanding independence from them and it is not a revolution, but just we are defending independence which formally declared in 1947. So now our case with them is a case of aggression only not demanding independence. That is our stand. And also now we are still hoping that this will be peacefully solved the problem because India also advanced nation. Burma also advanced nation democracy nation. India is Allah is the most secretary of the world in this Southeast Asia. And now Burma also fighting for independence are fighting for this democracy. So we are hoping that through peacefully we can solve the problem through understanding. But till now this India people do not address the nav of the problem. That is a problem. Yeah. And they are trying to dominate us only. I think that India has their right and they are maintaining their national right and they become independent. The British

[Podcast Host]

who

[Thomas Chapwon]

generously granted them independent. So also the India leaders should consider us to leave us alone to give to recognize our independent. That I'm thinking here.

[Podcast Host]

Well, I'd like to thank you for such a wonderful introduction to yourself and your story. Our guest on today's Inside Myanmar podcast is Thomas Chapwon and he is an elder in the Naga community and discussing the history of the Nagas as well as where they're at in the present day and where things might be going. So that is the topic of today's conversation. And Thomas, you paint a picture of, of a people that had been living as a community before the arrival of the British, before partition India, before independence in Burma. And through these colonial and regional maps of greater powers, they found lines, artificial lines being driven down the lines of this community, where suddenly some member of the Naga community was on the Indian side and some member of the Naga community was on the Burmese side. And that this is very hard to maintain the survival and the culture and the identity of your community when you're being subsumed into larger countries with which you don't have any real, any historical or cultural connection, as you say. And to boot, you're on. There's a border that's separating you as well. You say that in the present day you are not asking for independence, but you do hope to see some kind of, in your words, peaceful resolution. So I'm curious what kind of peaceful resolution, which also is in the realm of possibility and yet not full fledged independence, do you see as a possibility for the Naga people?

[Thomas Chapwon]

We are migrated from this China, from China. According to our history. We have Descended from this. Mesopotamia. Mesopotamia from there to we come to this Mongolot area from their Tibet and this China. So we come up to China. From China to this present land. The Nagas and Kechin brother. According to our story, these Kachins our younger brother. And the Nagas are elder brother generation of elder brother generation of younger brother. So we come to occupy this present land. And we have been living as a free people. And also according to our system is a democratic system. We have no king, we have no dictatorial rule. But this rule by village council only. And all the villages they themselves as free and republic villages. So in 1946 only won the NAC war. The Naga become as a nation. The NNC brought all the republic villages into a nation. So we are as independent nation. But then religiously this amenism that's according to our culture. There's a We say that this heavenly Father we are worshiping Heavenly Father. But we like seemsly worshiping. We are not worshiping this evil spirit or this Satan. We never worship. But just give anything offering means to drive it out from us. Not to make us trouble. That's only so we are our people. And Kachim people we have animism. But then we all always worship heavenly father and creator in. But we don't know who is creator, who is heavenly father. But always our forefather said Heavenly Father creator. And this now it is a changing world. So all people claim their own right. Even human rights claim. So the national race important so nation arise through the national right. If each and every people regard us then that will be okay. We think that and this what you brought to us by American Baptist missionary in 1876 in Kitchenland 1885 I think so in Burma this Burma they have this Buddhism they have as a state religion. So in during this. Burmese kingdom there's no freedom of religion. But after the British this Burmese kingdom fell into British sovereignty. From there on British applied this free religion and freedom of religion. So from there on some of these American missionaries came to Kachin land. And from there this missionary brought to Kachin land. And in Nagaland also missionary brought Nagaland. So from there we started accepting Jesus Christ as our savior. So now we become 95% are Christian. Now there's no no much enemies people. Only few in eastern Nagaland also there's no more enemies people. But only all are Christian people. We have a setting. So we are hoping that this western country and these American people they will support us because we are Christian. And also. As they brought good news to us and make us a Christian people, Christian nation. So also now we are thinking that American people and Western Christian people will support us and will regard us or will recognize our national. Right. We are thinking on that way.

[Podcast Host]

Have there been appeals to Western nations or America in particular on behalf of Nagaland presently?

[Thomas Chapwon]

Yeah, we all Naga people here are thinking on that way because all the Nagas are Christians. This American Christian nation, this British Christian nation. So all Christian nation we would like to request to recognize us our right. We are thinking that. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And what is the sect of Christianity in Nagaland?

[Thomas Chapwon]

Nagaland majority is baptism. Yeah. And Catholic second Catholic. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

So Baptist and Catholic.

[Thomas Chapwon]

Baptist and Catholic. Right.

[Podcast Host]

And you referenced before how you're not demanding a full independence as Nagaland but you you would like a peaceful resolution. So if you're not requesting full independence, what would you like to see?

[Thomas Chapwon]

No, we're thinking that we have declared our independence. That that means our age old independent declare. Because if we doesn't declare the independence then on those days and Ching Ching wall. Exactly. We need not to declare but we have to declare at the Xingqing wall because we are independent people. We will remain as independent that we have declared. And now also we think we want to request India Obama to recognize our independent only because we are not demanding independent demanding means we do not independent demand Demanding means if we are subjected of the India or subjected of the this bomber then it may be demand. But this Naga territory does not belong to Burmese kingdom.

[Podcast Host]

So I see, so you're requesting independence.

[Thomas Chapwon]

Naga territory does not belong to this India kingdom India. Yeah. Not requesting means the requesting to request to request. It means to recognize our independent only because we are not demanding independence from India or the others. Demand means if we are subjected then maybe we can use demand. We are subjected to other nations that we may have demand.

[Podcast Host]

So would you is your hope or your expectation to see an independent Naga nation recognized by the United nations and other countries in the world?

[Thomas Chapwon]

That is all that is our subject is we do not demand independence from UN or both or the other nation but we are being remaining as independent people from that in memory so that status be recognized by India Obama. That's all.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, that is so as we've seen in Burma as the after independence and the success of military regimes that the different ethnic groups in Burma came to form armed groups to defend themselves and their territories. We see the Kia, the AA, the KNU, et cetera, the different EAOs EROs now that have been playing a role in the conflict. So as far as Naga land goes to what degree have different Naga factions over the years since 1947, 48 gone. Not just in making speeches or trying to gain attention through words or documents or pleas, but to what degree have there been the formation and activities of armed Naga groups as well?

[Thomas Chapwon]

Alongside this problem in Burma it was arise because the Panglong Agreement of 1947 it wasn't implemented by Burmese leader. But they make after the the death of our sign Aung San General Aung San Uno and other leaders made the bombers nation unitary country. They did not grant this federal formation. They ignored the federal formation. They reject federal formation. From there the Kachin people also started to fight for their independence. Because as I told you previously, the Qin people also never dominated by this Burmese kingdom. They were free people and they were ruled by this Dua. And in British time also they were ruled separately. This Kachenhis regulation and Chinese regulation, Kashini Regulation in 1885 eating they have this Kachen Hills regulation, Chinese regulation. So accordingly it was ruled. So if Burmese people want to enter to Kachen state kitchen territory, they should have inner line permit and to change they should have inhaling permit. But during this japanese role in 181944 maybe they have provoked this Inalang permit From there Burmese people freely enter into this Kachin people.

[Podcast Host]

So you're saying during the colonial times Bamar people could not travel into Naga, Chin and Kachin regions without a special permit allowing them to go. And then after independence that changed and they then had free access.

[Thomas Chapwon]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not only. Yeah, that is, I mean, yeah. So Kachin people, we are different nation. Naga people different nation. So when they lost this self determination they started fighting. They have formed this pia or the others. Yeah, that is the reason. And also one thing is in Baba started from this anorata Anoita, you know that I think the first, the first kingdom Obama started by this Anayata. Anayata's policy means there should be one religion, one language and one once one letter, one script. So if the people become one language and one religion, then there will not be peace in his kingdom.

[Podcast Host]

Well, I, I do know that previous Bamar kingdoms, even as they had an expansionist policy, there are records of different kingdoms being a bit more tolerant religiously and ethnically than we see the later Burmese regimes. There's stories of, you know, people of, of different religions, Muslims and Hindus and such that are actually in the Bamar royal court at times or Christian communities that are living outside the community in some kind of freedom and peace. And that's been Contrasted in showing that there has been that previous Bamar kingdoms have actually allowed for greater multicultural and multi religious tolerance than we see the current contemporary Burmese military regimes. They're not so much following in that example.

[Thomas Chapwon]

That means. I my. My point is all problem can be solved by regarding each other's right. That's only I'm thinking that now the people of the world are changing. And these Myanmar people also fighting this for this democracy. Democracy means they all regard the others right. Even this human right they are regarding. So they can regard this nation as well. Because in previous time. Because the problem started because of this from studied from this UNO and from this army General they want to maintain this first policy of anorata Vietnam and other past leaders they said all this policy all the principles be utilized or maintained because of that problem started among us. So to create problem is no good. It is wrong. But to solve the problem we have to maintain. We have to regard the others right, others national right. That's very important. So let them be brought freely. Let them be built up their nation freely. That will be that we have to regard. That's only through this only we can solve the problem. But we are rejecting the others national right or human right. Then there's a problem in the world. There's some nation. There's a disregarding other religions, right. Because of that we are facing the problem In Nagaland we have started to develop our armed group means after this India government Nehru sent his armed group to Nagaland to invade Naga Nation in 1955. From there the Naga started forming this shipguard. And after that Hungan. And after that Naga army we have formed because to defend our nation only

[Podcast Host]

from the Indian army.

[Thomas Chapwon]

From the India side. From the India side Naga area. Yeah. Because Indian national Indian army come to us and fight us. So we have to defend our sovereignty, our nation. So our leaders started fighting against this aggression to defend ourselves whatever demons have the arms. In those days many arms and ammunition remains in those types of second World War. So with that the Nagas fight against this Indian Army. And in 19 after 1960 the Naga army sent to East Pakistan. Now it is Bangladesh East Pakistan to brought this arms ammunition mission from there and fight against them. And after 1960, 67 the first time our Naga army good with the mission sent to China. And from there we brought arms ammunition and we will defend. We are defending our independence.

[Podcast Host]

That's on the Indian side. And so then during these same years and later what was happening on the

[Thomas Chapwon]

Burmese side means in 1960 some this Nagarami Come to eastern side and mobilize our eastern Nagaland. And in 1975 I joined the Naga National Council and I started to mobilize this our region. And firstly in 1965 on the 7th of April the Eastern Naga National Council was formed. ENRC Eastern Nagan Revolutionary Council was formed in this Sombra village. From there our army and started Eastern Naga army started and formed this army and to defend our eastern Nagaland.

[Podcast Host]

Defend from whom?

[Thomas Chapwon]

From, From Bama. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

So the, the Burmese army, The Tamida after 1962 was coming to Naga.

[Thomas Chapwon]

1960, 1965. This Eastern Naga Revolutionary Council was formed in 1965.

[Podcast Host]

And you personally, you're from the Burmese side of Naga territory?

[Thomas Chapwon]

Yeah, I, I'm from bomber side, yeah.

[Podcast Host]

So was there coordination or sharing of tactics or support from. You know, you have the western Nagas that are fighting the Indian army and they, they're, they're doing that first. They're getting, as you say, they're getting support and arms from what became Bangladesh and China. And then later, several years later you have the western Naga starting to fend off and fight the Burmese army or the Tatmada. To what degrees were those western and eastern Naga armed groups coordinating and supporting each other?

[Thomas Chapwon]

We are in previous time we are only the same army. In eastern Nagaland or western Nagaland we are the same army.

[Podcast Host]

And so the borders you can cross back and forth easily at that time

[Thomas Chapwon]

because we have no problem to cross this boundary because we are the Sikh people. So no problem to cross the boundary. So in previous time, before 1980, this Tagaromi headquarter is in eastern side.

[Podcast Host]

So has there been tension between the eastern and western groups that developed of Nagas or have they always been very, very, very easy? Connections and collaboration?

[Thomas Chapwon]

Yeah, collaboration and connection is no problem there. In those days we have no telephone and we have no this telecommunication, that's all. But even then we have communication among us. So there was no problem here among us.

[Podcast Host]

So you're talking about the 1960s. If you can bring us up through the decades to the present day and tell us how these armed groups in Nagaland continue to develop and the nature of the conflicts in, in the following years.

[Thomas Chapwon]

Now in western part of Nagaland since 1964, peace agreement with the federal government Nagaland and government of India, we have peace agreement. So there's no fighting. They are in western side of Nagaland. But then in 1975 India started this to defeat Naga people through their army MIC. So the Nagas forced this to sign this Shillong Accord. But that Shaloma accord was signed not in the name of NNC or federal government but an only underground organization. And there no signatories have not given their rank and designation. So only they rename the FSI so it become invalid document. But then they have re established this peace among India and Burma. So now in India side peace is maintaining there. So we are thinking that through peaceful means we can solve the problem that we are thinking here 1964, that's a former peace agreement in between the federal government Nagaland and government of India. But then that peace agreement was. Or this unilaterally unit. Really? No. Unilaterally this India government rejected abolish the agreement. But from Naga side we do not abolish this agreement. But then we are thinking till now the federal government agency is maintaining the peace. So we are thinking that through peaceful means we can solve the problem. Thus Warrior the faction means it was started in 1980 only because he was in that time General secretary of nnc. He rejected leadership of Pizzou Pizza was at that time president of NC NNC President nnc. But this Moiwa wanted to form this socialist government. So he defected from the NNC and formed this NHSN Socialite organization. Socialite government. From then this faction started among the Nagas. It is the policy of divide and rural policy of India. Only all these things are happening.

[Podcast Host]

So you're saying India encouraged these factions to take place?

[Thomas Chapwon]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And so fast forward to today. Do you feel that the Daga community has become a fractured people? People?

[Thomas Chapwon]

Yeah. But then we will be one one day next time we will be one. Because many people are understanding now. So time is coming to be one and thinking. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Can you describe the nature and characteristic of these factions that started to develop?

[Thomas Chapwon]

Faction development means some people are interested for themselves only for his own leadership or that only this problem is come up. So other now all these things. All these things is not work they come to understand. So in the last step we will be one again.

[Podcast Host]

Can you describe the nature of the conflict between the Burma army and the eastern Naga groups?

[Thomas Chapwon]

Eastern Naga group? That means After Nehru and Prime Minister of Uno, the former Prime Minister of Uno divided Naga Nation since 1953. From there the problem started this eastern Naga and Burma government. They started to control our eastern Nagaland. Previous time we have no relationship with the Burmese kingdom. Burmese king never entered into our territory. We are free people here they have no even a plot of even applaud. No Burmese kingdom belong in Naga area here. So we are free people. But forcefully without our knowledge they have divided our nation and put them as under their rule. So from there we start to defend our nation. Not only that was a problem. If they realized that that was false of the previous leader, then the problem is there we will solve.

[Podcast Host]

What were the resources that the Burma army was trying to exploit and get from Nagaland?

[Thomas Chapwon]

I don't know this. According to this British. According to British this colonial rule boundary, that's only they have divided according to this boundary. And from there they claim that our territory belong to them. And from there they started to come in our nation, people of our area. So from there the problem started. According to this Burmese shri rule in 1947, according to their constitution, all the manner underneath or overground or in the air or under the water, it belongs to government. That is the rule. So if they claim our nation then all the manners belong to them. That is according to the reconstitution. So we don't want to allow all these things our country we belong to Dattanagas and all the miners. All things we belong to the Nagas.

[Podcast Host]

And what were the minerals that the Burma army was trying to get in

[Thomas Chapwon]

eastern part of Nagaland? There's a jet gold. And it was an export minor maybe there. But now presently gold and this gestone Opium. Yeah, there's a opium problem is in like an Hybe area. Previously they grow. We grow this poppy for this livelihood income they grow. But now slowly it become less. Previously have been growing but now it become less problem now. But this Burmese army usually once they have peace in our area or kitchen area or other area, they supply this drug, illegal drug to our area to make this our youth become weak. Opium addiction, drug addiction so that they can dominate us. For that matter, they are freely supplying this illusion drug in our area. After they have this safer agreement, this Indonesian Kablan group in. 2012 I think.

[Podcast Host]

And there have been places in Nagaland that have poppy fields as well, correct?

[Thomas Chapwon]

Yeah, yeah. In. In posm we have growing this poppy or their livelihood without growing this poppy then they have no income. But it is not like the other region like in this Shan area. Shan area growing this for many income, but not that. In our area opium means they do not use it as making this heroin or other drug. But just a little they are growing but now it become very less.

[Podcast Host]

Now this leads into the question of the work that ENDO has done. The organization ENDO that has looked after some of the development and supported Naga society. So can you tell us a bit about what ENDO has Been doing to support the Naga people.

[Thomas Chapwon]

Yeah. In Endo I have founded this Endo Eastern Naga Development Organization when I was in my Hong Song. So I started to form this Indo and this Pike Also working with us as advisor and he was helping a lot to us. That's mainly we are operating for supporting the education and health care. In our objective we have made this Popi eradication, opium eradication and also environment and also this woman organization. Five we have five objectives. But now we cannot regularly walk this on this poppy eradication and environment and and women organization. These three point we are yet to organize. But now. This indoor are working for education and hair care in our area. So it is Indo is the first non governmental organization NGO in Naga area is effectively working and helping our area. The other organizations are there but few. They cannot be more effective to have people. But just only endo is helping first group in 1965 we formed this Eastern Naga Revolution Revolutionary Council ENRC under the ENRC they have armed group Eastern Naga army and. But then I joined this Naga national council in 1975. From there all the Naga become Naga Army and also this ENLC joined NNC in 1979 on March 10th. So we all become only one and Nagarmi Federica of Nagaland Naga National Council Nagarmi that's only

[Podcast Host]

so from. That's from 1980.

[Thomas Chapwon]

From 1980 only this Moiwa and Kablang people decided to form this nhsn. From there we have division among us right before that we are only one Naga Army Federal Government Nagaland and Naga National Council.

[Podcast Host]

And from your background were you more involved in the governing side or were you also involved in some the. Of. Of the armed. The armed part as well.

[Thomas Chapwon]

I this civil site only not Nagarami. I was interested as joint secretary of Nagane Council, right?

[Podcast Host]

Can you describe the nature of some of the conflict that took place between the Naga army and the Burma army as they started to come into Naga territory?

[Thomas Chapwon]

Naga territory? This Papanese government started this setting up their camp in Lahe or this Nam Yong, Simba, Young and Sombra. It was after 1955 they started this train station. In those days the station are only all this. But after 1980. After 1990 they set up more ports in eastern Nagaland. Now I think it may be more than 100 post in our Eastern Nagaland. Yeah. Fighting against us. Even bombing. Even bombing and burning down the villages. Most of the villages burned down by the Burmese army and also the churches. And even the Christian people forced to convert to the Buddhism in our area. After 1990? Yeah. They forced the Christian by forcefully converted to Buddhism. And they set up this Natala. Natala means or the development of border area. So in that school they want to. They want to educate young people to accept Buddhism. Not the Christian are not allowed to admit that school even they are Christian. Then they have to convert. So they want to make it this Buddhist leader among the Naga national among the Nagas.

[Podcast Host]

So this has been an expansion policy of Brahmanization as well as religion.

[Thomas Chapwon]

So previously I want to say that after 1980, his UNO and this general neighbor started Bahmanization. Bhmanization means who accepted this Bahminism, this Buddhism Then it is Bamis. These who are not accept the Bis then a foreigner like they think foreigner. So they want to make all the Naga people or Gacha people to be Buddhism. In previous time we have no Buddhist. We have no Buddhist. Actually this Gautama. Gautama was born in BC633. Maybe so even then more than 2000 years. This Buddhism cannot come to us. Come to our territory in Kachin land or this Nagaland. We don't know this Buddhism. But only after 1870 or 1880 we become. We come to know this Christian good news. And all the people become now Christian accepting the Jesus Christ and the Savior. So the problem started. Most problems started after the independent Obama, the UNO neighbor and this now generate Min online. They are wanting to make Buddhist one Brahmanization. That is the problem here. Right? Right.

[Podcast Host]

I want to ask you a personal anecdote to share. I want to prompt you on this story. There's a story of your encounter with a wound wounded bear. I wonder if you can explain that with us.

[Thomas Chapwon]

I want to. In 1975, I went to this hunting. From there bear come to attack me. I was alone there in the jungle. So I thought that I maybe finish a deer. I pray to God that seek my soul and forgive my soul. Forgive my sins and take my soul. These two words I pray God. So bear left me alone and run away. So from that I was thinking this skin from this is my scar pull out. This was pull out. So I thought that I may be finished here. But then made my mind I am alright. So I started to go to village. It takes three hours. So I reached in the village and I requested villagers to carry me to hospital. The nearest hospital is in Nublak. They take four days to reach there. She was born at that time, your daughter. My daughter at that time she become yet to one year. So with her mother and three of us went to hospital in Novla. They carry this within these four days. They become decay by wound. So become very bad now. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And why is that story meaningful to you? What does that story signify to you?

[Thomas Chapwon]

I was with my rifle, I shoot it, but then my bullet missed. Do not fire. So bear come to attack me. I was with Action Rebel.

[Podcast Host]

So the bear attacked you and could have killed you. But after you prayed, the bear went away, didn't finish the job.

[Thomas Chapwon]

He ran away. So I got up and started went to my village here.

[Podcast Host]

And you still suffer from the injuries of this attack?

[Thomas Chapwon]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's miraculous that God saved my life. If it is not God, then I may be finished there. So I tried. I got more and more now. Yeah,

[Podcast Host]

right now you have also had threats on your life made both by the Burmese military as well as different Naga armed groups. Can you describe the nature of these?

[Thomas Chapwon]

Yeah, this. We are up to my left. So I could not stay in Nagaland. And in eastern Nagaland. So I come to Thailand for sharing. For sharing. Because I do not accept their policy. That is the main reason. And secondly, I know the story of the faction, what they are telling lie. I know all these things. Policemen set up for this socialism. I do not accept the socialism because the Naga people are enjoying this democracy. From time in memorial. So we cannot accept this socialism. That is the main reason. Because Naga will never accept the socialism. Because Naga people become this Christian people. And also formerly they were enjoying this democracy. So they wouldn't accept this socialism.

[Podcast Host]

That was the Western Naga group.

[Thomas Chapwon]

Western Naga also. In eastern Naga also. But they were telling lie that this. And then she was surrendered. And also this division divided because of the Shillong Accord, they said. But our division was happened because of this socialism and democracy only not because of this Shalom Accord. Sri Lanka God, we know that it is invalid document. And none of the national workers accept it. But then one they wanted to form false propaganda. They use the Shang Accord saying that the Shilong Accord was a surrender court. And because of this s we have division, they said. But actually I know that Sri Lanka we have condemned in 1976. I was there, I also signed the agreement. So no one was there to accept the Sri Lanka God, because in eastern part of Nagaland it is not another platform of Sri Lanka. Because Eastern Naga is under the India or under Burma. Western Nagaland under India. So it may be in the platform of this. You know, we can say India side, but in Burma side we have no. All the Naga national leaders and Nagarami officers rejected their court and stayed Back in eastern Nagaland when they returned From China in 1976 I was there in eastern Nagaland. But now they are telling lines that they called out the main factor and the main reason for division among the Nagas. They are telling lie I don't know. So.

[Podcast Host]

So the this division that took place was an influence, a socialist influence that you felt went against your democratic and Christian values and background. This socialist influence was it being influenced by India or China or was there a foreign power that was trying to create this division or this alliance?

[Thomas Chapwon]

One thing I'm thinking that this my wow. Wanted to want for his leadership only in the interest of his leadership only and lust for power. So According to my WA's lust for power and leadership then India have the chance to support him and division divide us among us.

[Podcast Host]

So you feel New Delhi was pushing the socialist influence on because it means

[Thomas Chapwon]

if he is under the leadership of NNC there will be the record of Pizzu. Pizzou is a president. So unless he form a new group then there would be new history for him. So he wanted to make his own history. I think that's all.

[Podcast Host]

So where do things stand now in terms of this division in factions?

[Thomas Chapwon]

Factions group is now demanding shares of warranty black and constitution from India. We have nothing to demand from India. But he know, he knows. But knowingly he is demanding this share sovereignty and flag and position from India. It makes Indonaga conflict under the Indian nation Indian internal affair of India India. Because he is demanding demanding means if we are not a part. If we are a part of India then he can demand. He has the right to demand. But from time in Memorial Naga territory they were part and parcel of India.

[Podcast Host]

So as a result of this division you had threats on your life.

[Thomas Chapwon]

Yeah, yeah. That is the reason. Yeah. I come to Thailand. Yeah. Many times he attempted. They attempted to shoot me. They attempted to kill me many times in 1985 also they sent some group and other leadership of this Captain Rem. Captain come to attack me. At that time I were under this. Hang Nu river. I crossed Hango river. And in the. In the evening I crossed the Hang Nu river. And they are on the see on the sun. The other side of many suns are there plant area and they are on sun only we have they can make matter of this jungle leaf. And we are sleeping there. And in the morning, early in the morning I was early in the morning my boys cook up the rice and there at around 8, 8 o' clock in the morning time I started. We are starting to eat so from there other side of in other side there's big stones are there. So calling the big stone. They fire on us. We cannot see them, but they fire on us. Who was firing in Asian?

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, the Eastern. The eastern Naga army was because you

[Thomas Chapwon]

disagree at that time no eastern Nagarmi those an Asian army only we have no eastern Naga army or western Nagarmi. But in Asian army it is army. So they come after me. So they fire on me. One bullet passed here. I feel this hot on your ear. On my ear? Yeah. At that time also God saved me. I told this. Our boys do not fear them. Because they are also our people. Do not fe them. Let's go. We started going after there. So when we going? They come up with this Rafa. There's no boat but Bamburam, India with Bamburam. They are coming. My. My commander told me they are coming this pirate. I told him, okay to make them shock afraid fire two, three. Five bullet. So they fire two, three beloved upon them, but not target to them.

[Podcast Host]

And they left after that.

[Thomas Chapwon]

So they went away. And we also went up.

[Podcast Host]

So the reason they were trying to assassinate you was because you disagreed with the new leadership.

[Thomas Chapwon]

Yeah, I disagree with them. I do not support with them. And also the story. The fact story many tall meh by me, huh? That is because I know the the history. And also I have written these books on this division.

[Podcast Host]

And you say that the Burma army also made an attempt at your life.

[Thomas Chapwon]

Because Burma army also attacked my life. Because we are fighting against them. When I was in peace camp. When I was in peace camp also they attempted to kill me.

[Podcast Host]

The Burma army?

[Thomas Chapwon]

No, this Indonesian army. My heart was like that. And in the morning I have to stand the pea there. So around there one house is there. And nearby one tree. Big tree like that. Covering the big tree. They want to kill me when I stand for pee. But luckily one of all, one of old men first see him that Ns enemy. So he shouted there's enemy. Enemy. There's enemy. Shouting. And the army come to there. So he flee Bombay's army. In 1980, I think 78. I was wounded one fighting with them in 1970. In February 22, I think in February there are Tamko village. Burmese army come to attack us. Early in the morning, four o' clock. Maybe they started bombing, shedding this three inch motor. So I was in one house at nearby Morong. Nearby in front of the house there. At the house in front of this. Like a big place. So there seeding some of our 5, 5, 7, 8, 378-4. So I. I heard that the three important 3 inch motor share. So I shouted what I shell lie down. I also lie down. But bomb exploded in the midst of us near one Shamnel entered to my bottom. Yeah, I. I got this bleeding. I become faint at that time.

[Podcast Host]

So in Nagaland you had to. You had threats on your life from the Indian side, the Burmese side, the Naga side and Bears.

[Thomas Chapwon]

Ah yeah, that's.

[Podcast Host]

That's. That's quite a life.

[Thomas Chapwon]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

I understand that there's also a relationship between the Naga army and the kia. Can you say more about that?

[Thomas Chapwon]

Yeah. One thing is that KIA wants the good relationship with this India, with the government of India. They should maintain good relationship with the government of India. That is their policy. So. So that they don't want to have. They don't want to have a relationship with NSC or nscn. Because NSC and NSC are engaging I think with the problem with the government of India. So this Indian government may think that these KIA people are strengthening NNC and nacn. So they don't want to have a good relationship with NNC and nacn. That is the problem. So they want us to have a new organization in eastern part of Nagaland so that we can have a good relationship with KIA and alliance with them to stand for our aims and objective. So we made this Eastern Naga national organization in 192021 recently in October. Yeah. After that only we send army recruitment to AIA and now taking training there.

[Podcast Host]

So you set up a new organization after 2021.

[Thomas Chapwon]

You say 21? Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

So this was. This was after the military coup that

[Thomas Chapwon]

become Eastern Nagar Me. Now in previous time we have a Nagarmi or this social army only. But now when we form this Eastern Naga National Defense Army. Eastern Naga Defense army after the coup, after formation of ENNO Eastern Naga National Organization, then we form this Eastern Naga Defense Army.

[Podcast Host]

And how are you aligned with the kia? To what degree are you working together?

[Thomas Chapwon]

Okay. And Naga people in the future also, now also we will be together. We have our boundary, we have our neighbor. So in the future also generation we will be this neighbor. In the past also we are a neighbor and we are brothers and good relationship between us. So we have to make a good understanding with them and help each other. That is our objective.

[Podcast Host]

This brings us to the military coup in 2021 and the four years plus of resistance that has taken place. Can you describe how the. How the military coup has affected the Naga people? The Naga army, the resistance, the conflict or update us on the situation following

[Thomas Chapwon]

the coup, we are taking military training only yet to make any decision. But now many of our people, DCE and da, they are joining hand with the KIA and fighting against the Burmese

[Podcast Host]

army there in Kachinland and in Saigon as well. I understand the. The Eastern Naga Defense Force is also fighting the Burmese army in Sagain, is that correct? Yeah, and Sagayan as well.

[Thomas Chapwon]

We are yet to do.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, not yet.

[Thomas Chapwon]

Yeah, not yet.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, I see. Okay.

[Thomas Chapwon]

Yeah, not yet.

[Podcast Host]

All right, so the Eastern Naga Defense Force is in Kachin Land fighting the Burma army today.

[Thomas Chapwon]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Podcast Host]

I also understand there are PDF forces among Nagas as well, Is that correct?

[Thomas Chapwon]

Yeah, PDF also there we have jointly working together here. Because in Kachin land also Kachin have a Kachin PDF in Nagao also Naga PDF and Sheen also like that. And are there this other. Yes, this Karani Karen, they have PDF and.

[Podcast Host]

And are the Bamar PDF coordinating with the Naga?

[Thomas Chapwon]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We have coordinated with Naga PDFs are coordinate with the Nagaya? Yeah, yeah. Naga PDFs are coordinated with the Burmese PDF also.

[Podcast Host]

How so?

[Thomas Chapwon]

In what way coordinate means? Financially, they are helping. And this arms ammunition also they are helping that. Right?

[Podcast Host]

Has the NUG had contact with Naga? Tell us about that.

[Thomas Chapwon]

Yeah, this Naga mp, Naga MP is under the leadership of this. They have their mp. So this mp, they form this Naga people PDF, they are joining in with this. Aug,

[Podcast Host]

when you think about the future of Burma, maybe a post, military post, Tatmada, Myanmar, where we look at some of the early versions of the federal democracy that the NUG is hoping for. You've also talked about with Naga that you would like your own freedom and independence, your own recognized state. And so do you see a role for Nagaland in a future potentially federal, democratic Burma with what the NUG is promoting? Or is that not something you're interested in and you want your own territory

[Thomas Chapwon]

outside of that, as previously I told you that the problem may be solved this through peaceful means. So if we have peaceful means, then we will be understanding to solve the case, then that will be okay. I'm thinking that, yeah, we hope that the problem can be solved through peaceful means. Because now Burmese and UG also they want to set up this democracy government. So if they have a democracy government, then they will help to recognize all these other people's nation, right. And other people's national right from their problem. We can be so much so I hope that.

[Podcast Host]

So would you be hopeful in being part of a federal democracy in the context of Myanmar

[Thomas Chapwon]

that will Be depend on our people's world will. Yeah, the will of the our people only.

[Podcast Host]

Do you have a sense of what the people's will is now?

[Thomas Chapwon]

I just now I cannot say. Sure. Right.

[Podcast Host]

So for now it sounds like you're joining the nationwide resistance against the military in resisting and fighting the military. But after the military is defeated, we don't really know where what Naga might go towards.

[Thomas Chapwon]

Yeah, that will be decision on all the Naga people. Right.

[Podcast Host]

To what degree they may want to join a federal democracy or to what degree they may want to advocate for their own independence, that remains to be seen.

[Thomas Chapwon]

That will remain the decision of the people. Sure.

[Podcast Host]

So the last question I want to ask you, you referenced how when you were attacked by a bear, you were hunting, I assume that you were hunting in forests in Naga Land for. For meat, for food. And we've talked a bit about the difficult history of Naga, the conflict and the. The oppression that's been faced. It also talked about the religion, culture and spirituality of the people. But I'd like to to learn a little more about the nature of Naga culture and Naga people. And what better way than by food. So as you reference hunting for food and this brings us into a curiosity about Naga cuisine. If we were to go to Naga land today, walk into a home, what kinds of food could we expect to be served there?

[Thomas Chapwon]

This the Kanye culture of Naga people. They used to hunt for this meat from the jungle. So even if they. They have this bowl or this beer or this other they have, then they will enjoy meat for the whole people in our culture. In, in those days of our village, if I got some, I shot some bear or some this reindeer or this jungle guard, then we go and take share the equally and bring to their own home and enjoy that. We never sell the meat, but just who God share the meat with the villagers. That is our system. And if we get bear or this any animal, we make this head hung in the. In the wall. In the wall. Yeah. For trophy. So in Naga, who is a hunter, oh, many heads are there in his house.

[Podcast Host]

So you, you bring the meat of the bear or the boar back to the village and share it. How do you prepare the meat? How is it consumed? Is it dried for later? Is it made into a curry? Is it roasted? How is it then eaten?

[Thomas Chapwon]

Well, there's a curry and sometime they dry it and for next time they keep it.

[Podcast Host]

What is your favorite Naga cuisine?

[Thomas Chapwon]

This in time. In our. In those days, I fair much this India or bukhya not I favor much meat. But now I don't have meat now I become this. I don't. I decided not to have meat. Naga always Naga food only boil. We have no in those time, we have no this oil or this and that. But just we boil this meat and enjoy it. This only. So we do not make a fried water, but just boil and make in those time. In those days time, they like that. Yeah. Sometimes in the jungle, we make food with the bamboo. Bamboo. If it's a rice or meat, we chop the meat. Make it this salt or this chili. All things. We make it and put it into the bamboo on Coke in the jungle. That's a very, very good, very good food. Yeah, very sweet food. Very tasty. And also this rice also we cook like that rice. We have to. We have to wash the rice and give it into the. This leaf. Chunk leaf. Long live there one thing is so there. We put the rice and put it into the bamboo. Put it a little water and put into the fire and make it cook like that. It's very good. One we are not cold or anything that we used to cook like that.

[Podcast Host]

No pot. You use leaf and bamboo. I'm hungry just hearing about that. You must miss this food.

[Thomas Chapwon]

Now. In Naga culture, in our time in our villages, we were helping each other. We were helping each other. So if we get any me from the jungle, sharing each other and eat together. And also this one. We cannot walk in the field when someone is in the home sick, sick or illness and cannot attend their field. And we call all the villagers to help him. So the villagers are the horse provide only meat and this rice, beer. That's all. We cannot pay any wages to them. But all the people come and help him. One who is ill and cannot attend their field. And also one we build the house. All things by villagers only. So want this to build this wood or this stash. We can bring this by the villagers only. So the host can provide them food and this rice beer. That's all. So in those days we were helping each other and one to clean the field. Jungle. The villagers decided we will cut the field in this side. So in Morong, Moro means. Moro means the village calls it hall. Morong means from there they have decided. And then before study, we should clean, we should root. We should make the route clean. And after that we have to set up the camp where we have to clean the food. The cut the field. We have to make temporary camp. There are people stay there and cut the jungle for the next field. For the field. So in the evening time we come to the camp and even if we have anything this in those days we can we thrive jungle or jungle banner by tribe. We can have the jungle bird like peacock and also pison or also many things. If we can have many, then the villagers together enjoy together and make or have together enjoy her. That's very happy in those days when I was young.

[Podcast Host]

Good memories.

[Thomas Chapwon]

Yeah. Yeah. Everybody did. Yeah. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Well, I thank you so much for taking the time to share these memories of your Naga people and history with us today.

[Thomas Chapwon]

Thank you. Yeah. Thank you very much. Yeah. To give this interview and make it all record for you. Good. Okay.

[Podcast Host]

Thank you for listening to this episode of Insight Myanmar podcast. Producing these conversations takes dedication and resources, and through this process, we're committed to keeping them freely available for everyone. But to make this work sustainable, we do need your help. If you've enjoyed this episode or found it valuable, and if you listen to our platform on any somewhat regular basis, we ask you to consider supporting us with a recurring donation. It doesn't have to be much. Think of it as buying us a cup of coffee each month.

[Thomas Chapwon]

Month.

[Podcast Host]

That small gesture of committing to just, I don't know, $5 a month can make a big difference in helping us to continue bringing these stories. And if you're feeling more generous, increasing the monthly pledge will allow us to produce even more on our end. In any case, any level of support goes directly towards amplifying the voices and stories that matter. This not only keeps us going, but ensures that these important conversations reach more, more people around the world. To make a contribution, visit insight myanmar.org donation or look for Insight Myanmar on PayPal or Patreon.

[Thomas Chapwon]

And. What about Yara Nangaya? We got a visa. Hobby.