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- [00:27]
Podcast Host
I'm really excited to bring you the upcoming interview with a very special guest. You'll hear her discussing all the great and courageous work that she's currently engaged in and if you feel inspired to help her to continue these efforts, please consider making a donation earmarked for her projects. Or you can give a general donation that will support the wider movement in Myanmar. Our ongoing support has been very helpful and appreciated by so many Burmese who are struggling during these dark days. Simply go to insight myanmar.org donation to contribute today or stay tuned to the end of the episode episode to hear more options. Now let's get to hear from that guest herself,
- [01:35]
Suthit
Jamisa.
- [02:21]
Interviewer
For this episode of Insight Myanmar podcast. We are back with Suthit. We last spoke to Suthit years ago. This was episode number 91. We encourage listeners to check check that out. The title was this Woman's Work and we spoke to Suthit shortly after the military coup and this was a time of a lot of activity and tension and danger and a lot of things happening all at once. And for those listeners who go back and listen to that episode, you'll hear that at that time Suthit had decided as a spouse of an active soldier to immediately defect, join the people's movement, join the democracy movement, call out the military and risking their lives to be able to leave the military. And when they did, then set up an organization on the border called Spouses of People Soldiers, which we detailed in that last episode, which was encouraging both spouses and the active serving soldiers to defect from the military and then to support their escape routes and their livelihood, training and starting their new life, to be able to bring them into the democracy movement and support them. So that was what we talked about several years ago. That was just as it was happening. And so we're really privileged to be able to have a follow up conversation here where we can learn what has been happening in those intervening years from the time that we talk to the last number of years as this conflict has dragged on and her work has continued. And as you'll hear it's really great and inspiring work that they're doing. We'll be able to check in with that. So with that long introduction, Suthit, I'd like to thank you for once again joining us and sitting down to have this conversation.
- [04:13]
Suthit's Husband
Yes, thanks for inviting me also because I think in 2021 December we have done your podcast session.
- [04:23]
Suthit
So I'm glad to hear that my
- [04:26]
Suthit's Husband
podcast was listening about over 200 listener. So nice to see you again in this time also.
- [04:37]
Interviewer
So when we last spoke, you had. You were kind of in the midst of these really enormous life decisions that you were making to be able to be on the right side of history, basically. And at that time, we had no idea how many months or years this would go on for. You were caught up in the moment, and you were trying to navigate, moment by moment, a really difficult situation. But when we're talking now, it's been years. And you have been living out the results of your courageous and difficult decision for years. You're not able to go home, you're having to live in exile, and you're continuing to do this work of, as I understand, encouraging the defection of soldiers and then welcoming them and helping them and especially their spouses into livelihood training. And so the first question I want to ask is, when you look back on the decision that you made and really, frankly speaking, how difficult your life has been since having to escape, as you look back on that, do you have any regrets? Is there anything you would do differently? How do you feel about what you decided then and what your life has been like since?
- [05:49]
Suthit's Husband
Okay, when I look back the four years, since 2021, when my husband defected, we at the time, our most difficult time is to decide to defect. After that, we can overcome this decision. And we stayed in Django about two months because at the time Covid that wave was heaven. So we are waiting to escape to the liberated area. So at the time, also because the condition was very different last time
- [06:36]
Suthit
I
- [06:36]
Suthit's Husband
have job and my job get good salary, good position. My husband as well, he got good condition. Everything are good. But now after defect, at the time we don't have, like, we don't have any possession. I mean, possession means we don't have, like, I'm not manager anymore, he is not captive anymore. So the conditions are very different. It affect like his mental health and my mental health also. But at the time, our resistance are also very good. But the gap between these is a little bit conflict for us. After that we came to liberated area at the time also for me it was very difficult time because the water is not plenty, there is no electricity, there's no aircon, no fan. So the weather is also sometimes very hot. So I cannot see and this way, like, I cannot take back in the stream. So the conditions are very different. So at the time, like to about one month, I have to struggle, like terrible struggling I have to do. After that I have decided because at the time I met with women, like, who are activists, who are spouses. Of Libya soldiers like who are spouses of civilian police. Some are like women parliament. So so many women and children I found at the liberated area. So I turned my decision and I turned my feeling because at the time I was so depressed. So from depress turn to motivation Because I have to do for my country I have to do for my life as well. Because at the time like I'm very terrible. The feeling is so bad and homesick Also very terrible. So I want to. I want to meet with my family, with my parents. I want to go back my home. So my decision all the decision and my condition I tend to do for my country. So at the time I founded the spouses of soldiers and other time we are doing so many advocacy campaign
- [09:40]
Suthit
in
- [09:41]
Suthit's Husband
reality also like CDM soldiers and sponsors of CDM soldiers came to liberate the area and they stand for the right side. They stand for the civilian. So we welcome them and we give the like we hope for the accommodation. We arrange to get the accommodation to get the food like if like children are coming with the parents we are arranging for the children accessory like diva make bowel like as you all know that in the forest we don't have proper mattress.
- [10:30]
Suthit
So the baby got sick.
- [10:32]
Suthit's Husband
So I arranged to get the proper mattress because at the winter in the forest very cold at the time.
- [10:42]
Suthit
So
- [10:45]
Suthit's Husband
after that we after nine months later we moved to another Bora area of Thailand. So at this place also we can do more widely like supporting advocacy as well. We are giving at the time we are giving the humanitarian assistance monthly since 2022. Because since 2022 March we arrived another Bora area of the Thailand. So since at that time we are providing the humanitarian assistance monthly like starting time we can provide over 30 family. But now we can provide over 200 families. So during this four to five years every month we are providing for the humanitarian assistance like basil, rice oil, cooking oil, instant noodles. Sometimes we give egg and like advocacy campaign. My belief is if a woman encourages her husband to defect, the husband will consider firstly, if he cannot decide immediately, he will consider definitely whether his wife talking wife advises correct or not, he will consider first. And also I found that the breaking brainwash advocacy media also my belief is like if we can remove their brainwash at least they will not kill the civilian. Even they cannot protect the civilian, they will not kill anymore. That's why we invited the CDM soldiers to talk about their will of CDM to talk about their life testimony about the defection testimony. So how they overcame to defect, how they Decide to defect. So that kinds of question we are asking them and we release their. Like we released their talk show, we released their interview. And also like one soldiers defector. Once one soldiers defect deck we invited them to talk about their life testimony how military is acting to the civilian. If they like see like evidence. Like some soldiers they have evidence in Rohingya case. Some soldier they have evidence what the military gentle cracking down the protesting. So how they treat the protester, how they kill, how they beat. So they have a lot of evidence. So like they can. They can talk about in our channel
- [14:12]
Suthit
and also I encourage my husband because the civilian and we also don't know
- [14:20]
Suthit's Husband
about how military can do like about the.
- [14:31]
Suthit
About the battalion.
- [14:34]
Suthit's Husband
Like if winter time and if dry season they are doing more betterly they are more. More fighting jet fighter bombing. So that kind of like secret and what time military can do frequently what time military usually do. So that kind of knowledge sharing also we are doing and also propaganda how they propaganda to the civilian. How they propaganda to their basic level because they have to detain their basic level to fight for them. So this basic level if this basic level cannot fight front line at the front line. So our PDF task force like no need to fight and no need to give their life.
- [15:30]
Suthit
No need to die.
- [15:32]
Suthit's Husband
Like so many propaganda, so many propaganda are doing in what time the military is doing so many propaganda in what
- [15:46]
Suthit
times, in what place the kinds of
- [15:51]
Suthit's Husband
knowledge and awareness we are doing. And also like JFI Dabomi so JFI Dabomi also some knowledge we are giving about the regarding the military issue. We are giving the awareness and we are providing the information to the audience. The audience means civilian and the PDF text force as well. So during this four to five years, this is our breaking brainwash channel. And also we are doing the livelihood section livelihood training to the woman. So now we can give the livelihood training about over 200 women. For the livelihood training and in advocacy we have Sakada program about the women's voices. Sakada means so women advisor Sagada program also until now we are doing. We are giving the awareness and since 2021 we are not. We are not stopped yet. We are continuing the Sakada program as well.
- [17:13]
Interviewer
That's a lot of activity that you've been doing in these years and just how active and involved and engaged you've continued to be. And there's any number of threads from that general outlay that you gave that I think would be important and fascinating to be able to go into all those details and I also want to highlight, I think, that for many of us that have been involved since the coup in various ways, many of us came from very different backgrounds than the work that we're doing now. And I mean this, our platform is a case of that as well. Our podcast and our humanitarian. These were immediate responses to a crisis situation, which we never intended to think that it would last as long as it did and we would be as engaged as we are. And yet we've grown into it, as have you made an ethical, difficult and dangerous decision in the moment as to, you know, how you wanted to respond to what you saw as an illegal military takeover. And then in the years since, you have built out your activities, set up a foundation of networking, of leadership, of programs. And I want to emphasize to listeners, you know, everything that you said, this is all new for you. None of these things did you have any background in, you know, before the coup happened. Like many of us, you had to grow and develop into it. If I, if I remember correctly, you were working at a hotel before then. And, and, and so, you know, this has been a radical and dramatic transformation that, you know, that has grown roots and structures and strength and foundation and all the programs that you've been doing. So the first question I'd like to ask to follow up is for those who have defected or considering defection, what are the primary driving forces that are leading to them wanting to leave? I'm sure different people, different stories, different reasons, not one thing,
- [19:16]
Suthit
the most hesitation or the most challenges is they are. For their living means how they can, how they will get the earning, their earning, because last time they got salary in the military, they got a place to stay in the military. So their challenges, the challenges they are living for their living. And also if the military also they have law, like, if they run away from the military compound, they will get punishment about five years in the prison. So this one is also very obstacle for them. And also like the, if, if they run away from the frontline battalion, they can get the punishment, even death penalty. So that kinds of things are important obstacle for them, especially for the human being they are considering. The first one is for their living home, they have to live, how they have to eat, how they have to cut any food.
- [20:49]
Interviewer
And then what are the other side of that, the different reasons that they give for wanting to leave or deciding to leave, what are all the different reasons that you've heard?
- [20:59]
Suthit
So why they want to leave is the early 2021 and 2022, their decision is like, they don't want to accept the military coup and they don't want to accept the junta military coup to the civilian government. So for their belief, I think from the last one is they don't want to like die because at the time the, the battalion with the PDF are also very strong. So some are leaving and some are running from the frontline battalion. So they want to die, they don't want to die. So the reason for the defection are very different. No, the reason for the defection is different depends on the people. So some are, some are for their belief, some are not to die. Some are like if they saw the evidence about the. Firstly, they are not seeing the like military gentiles. Some are not seeing immediately when the couple what's happened just like normal after one year detained the power, the military will give up the power to the civilian government. They believe that's why they are waiting after the military agenda is cracking down the protester and also the jet fighter bombing to the civilian village. So at the time only they realized that this is not the normal coup. This is military is killing to the civilians. That's why they should not stay inside the military. They have to leave for the civilians. So all the decisions are different depends on the people.
- [23:17]
Interviewer
I'm also thinking that the first year that, that the soldiers were defecting is very different than the possibility of that happening in the fifth year. And when it happened then, you know, they, they were celebrated. They were seen as people's heroes. They were seen as joining the, the democracy movement, maybe the federal army, maybe the NUG is advisors, the Department of Defense and, and, and, and people understood the difficulty of, of making the decision and safely being able to get out. And so as it took time to do that, I think there, there was quite a long grace period and quite a long people had quite a bit of patience and understanding the difficulties therein and welcoming them when they did. But it feels like a different thing in the fifth year. If someone has been serving in this military for five years, knowing the atrocities, the crimes against humanity, the killing of innocent civilians, the, the, the, the extreme violence against marginalized communities. And really everyone today, if someone has been serving that long in any capacity, it's hard to imagine they haven't been some active agent somewhere in quote unquote following orders. And those orders are, are, you know, they may be military orders, but really they are illegal, unethical and against international humanitarian law. So it's a different dynamic now. So I'm curious now, are you still engaged in encouraging military defections and if so, you know what, what are you hearing from the soldiers? Because they must know that they've been involved in some awful things. And I imagine for some of them they might feel like I'm already lost, I'm already gone. There's, there's no point now but keeping to go in this direction. You know, I'm, I'm. I've sinned so greatly. There's no hope of any redemption for me. And from the people side, I imagine the kind of goodwill and trust that existed before, I imagine it would be hard for the people who have been suffering to feel that way now about defections that have taken so long to come. So what is the change you state of the situation around defections today?
- [25:39]
Suthit
The person like who are still serving, who are serving all these five years, we re engage sometime at the time we ask the question why you are serving all the five years. You can see the military, what military is doing to the civilians. So they are giving so many reasons like because of, because of their mother health condition, because of their family affairs. They know what military is doing. That's why they are giving the information like information to the civilian, to the PDF. Like so many stories we are hearing some people hesitate to come to the people's side because like they are already five years serving for the military. So they are hesitate and they don't want to come to the people's side but they just want to give the information they like. They just want to give some important issue or something. Some are coming out but like they don't want to invoke to the revolution because in the revolution the people are very struggling. Things are starting time. So they don't want to, they don't want to involve and they don't want to connect with the kinds of people. So they are still quietly. So so many story about the kinds of late, late folks here.
- [27:47]
Interviewer
We spoke earlier on our podcast to Captain Cho, Cho who also defected and has been a strong advocate for defection. And in that conversation he told us that you can divide the act of serving soldiers into four categories. There are those who genuinely do not know what the military is doing and believe the brainwashing. There are those that, that want to defect but are not able to because they're afraid. There are those that know very well what the military is doing, but they see their own economic advantage in being able to continue. And there are those that are completely bought into the brainwashing and believe in, in, in, in the propaganda they're being served. We could put a Fifth category in what you just said, there are those that are strategically deciding to continue serving as watermelons and as being able to pass on secret information.
- [28:46]
Suthit
I think the most number is the first one. The geniusly defected one is also fraud. And second one after this period over the second one also strong and that one was third one and four one is not, not very strong because that one I want to add the one category because after the 2021, so 2022, 2023, 2022 and 2023, a lot of battalions are happening along the border. So so many soldiers are fleeing and many soldiers are running from the front line battalion. So we have to accept that kinds of soldiers also firstly they don't have like defection or they don't have anyone, they don't want to die. That's why they are running. So that kinds of category when they defect to the people's side, they know what are correct, what is wrong. So at the time they are mine and they are bring to civilian because like inside the military at the front line they undergo like life threatening. So the military is very like acting wrongly to them. So they know exactly that's why they defected to the civilian. So the civilian and like our organization, the humanitarian organizations are helping them. So they know that the civilians are helping them. So because of this to happen they know what is right, what is wrong. Certain time they don't know what is defection. So also I want to add so that kinds of categories are also very strong at that time in 2022, 2023. So 24 and 25, the dropping down the defection. The. The soldiers like they are running or they have to detain by this civilian and then the, the no, they have to detain behind the PDF check after the period Drexville gave back to the military.
- [31:18]
Suthit's Husband
So that kinds of events are a lot.
- [31:21]
Suthit
So that's why 2024 and 2025 are dropping down the defection. But like one person, 2% are also coming.
- [31:33]
Podcast Host
Right.
- [31:34]
Interviewer
So you're pointing to this need for the, the soldiers to know that if they defect they're. They're going to be cared for. They're going to have a chance to gain a new livelihood. They're not going to be. They're not going to be in prison. They need to know that they're going to a better life. And so much of this relates to economic conditions, to you know, in what ways are they going to be financially supported? Not you know, not as handouts, but as being able to. To learn a new vocation and training that they can have a livelihood. And so this gets into, you know, what kinds of thinking and budgeting has been available to help them to do this. And we spoke on this platform as well to Helena Chied at the Dias in Denmark and who's been studying academically this defections and went into a long description on that episode about why the international community is hesitant and a bit nervous about the idea of funding for former combatants and the challenges with doing so. But there's also. The NUG could also make this a strong priority or strategy and there are considerations and allocations of the way that this could work. So given how important it is to have support for these defected soldiers coming, can you talk about what strategies or plans were put in place to be able to get those funds and were they effective? Do you think that more could have been done, say by NUG leadership? That seems like a lot of this falls on them and a responsibility they should have and a priority they should have in looking at how to make sure this is provided for
- [33:32]
Suthit
the nug. Last time they give priority to the defectors and they give like when did they are providing for the defectors family? I think, I am not remembering. I think 20, 23 or 24. They stopped this program. They are providing the 1% 1,000 bed for the Defender family. So if you have four family members, you will get the providing 4,000 bed from the energy government every month. They are providing. So they give priority to the defector family. Also because at the time we are priority to the defection if they do the defect. Because our BP textbooks are also like very convenient.
- [34:26]
Interviewer
So
- [34:28]
Suthit
the international community, my thinking international community at the time, since 2000, 20, 21, 22, at the time they don't want to touch the military commander, former military commander like defectors. Why? I am not sure, but my opinion is at the time like we got the providing or because at the time the acceleration is very good, we can provide them because some are give up and some information can reach to the inside military. Like after the fact that they are not okay after defection, they are okay. So that kind of all the information can reach to the military. Because some military
- [35:31]
Suthit's Husband
personnel, they have connection
- [35:34]
Suthit
with their former colleagues. So some are asking, hey, we want to join the defection, how you are living, how you are like, is it okay at your current defection life? So their answer is if they answer like, hey, we are not okay, we are very struggling, we don't have food, we don't have enough food, we don't have stay to place as we don't have place to stay. So that kinds of information, all the information can reach to the inside the military. So at the time like we can give the. We can give the more supporting to them. I think definition more be better. Like this time the international community at the time they don't want to trash because of the. I think because of the sanction. Because some governments, US and some Europe country, they give sanction to the Myanmar military. That's why I think at that time we are giving the livelihood session. Livelihood session means I call, I give the name is rehabilitation. Actually rehabilitation means like physiotherapy. No, I want to give the Rehabilitation means rehabilitation. Restart the new life because they have to restart their new life. I myself also I have to restart my new life. Like if we don't have food, if we don't have a place to stay, we cannot give and we cannot give the advocacy to the others. Hey, this way is very good. You come and join with us please. Nobody will join. So we have to provide. We can provide and we are also like good condition. So the other people will try. That's why at the time I was struggling to get the funding for our rehabilitation projects. So in our rehabilitation project we have done over 200 files families, 200 sponsors or business soldiers to restart their life. We can provide at the time 15,000 but to 30,000 but per family to restart the small business like actually that amount is. That amount is not very much to start, to restart. To start the small small project. But I intended to do the like. Some. Some wife can sew the clothing so we provide the sewing machine so she can get the order from the outside. So that kinds of small project we are giving some soldiers like they are doing the agricultural so they can rent the ground, they can buy the seed, they can buy the agricultural products with this amount. So the kinds of small project we are doing. So from our project the impact is like some people can sell the Myanmar food. The investment is not much because they have to buy daily for the food. So now until now some families they can sell the Myanmar food so they got the income, small income from the selling some wife like they can do the eco breeding eco branding means
- [39:40]
Suthit's Husband
on
- [39:41]
Suthit
the fabric they are printed with the leaf flowers. Or they can sell this one to the others so they can get small money, small income. Some wife what they are doing is they do the small grocery shop. So the small grocery shop is the daily needs. So until now they are doing the small grocery shop. So every Day they can get the small income money. So the kinds of project we are doing so at the time my desire is like the kinds of project I want them to do. So if they got like income stream, like small income stream, wife are doing this in small income stream, the husband doing the outside. So d will get to in so they can stay and they can get resilient this time. So at the time like we cannot cover for all only over 200 women. So since at the time we can do the like bombing, I mean bombing means like. The funding for them. If we can provide them the kinds of rehabilitation project, I think the deficit also will be strong.
- [41:17]
Interviewer
So that last statement you said if we can provide those kind of funding options, then the funding will be strong. So I want to go into that conditional statement because you're referring to some of the things you've been able to do in the past and some of the effects that you've had. We're five years on and you know, we're at a time of funding cuts across the US as well as different priorities of western countries for various reasons. So there's less attention. So kind of digging into your last statement, are you suggesting that more recently you've had a challenge of being able to able to acquire the proper funding to be able to do what it is you want and that as a result of that the defections are also decreasing because there's less funding to be able to support those that are coming.
- [42:09]
Suthit
That is part of the defection affair. But defection means because of the different reason. Like, like just now I mentioned that some people are geniusly defective. Some people don't want to die. That's why they are defective. So depends on their situation. But just now my point is at the time like if we can provide more rehabilitation project for the defect deck soldiers, this information can reach to the inside the military. So that will impact some points or defection part. The defection decision. Some points are like some people hesitate how they are living, how they have to live, how they have to eat. So that kinds of hesitation we can whether can we solve with the kinds of supporting that is like a small part. I mean not due to this fact, the defection decrease. I I mean it is not
- [43:18]
Interviewer
right.
- [43:18]
Suthit
So it's a part of like. Like if we, we have 100%, it is like about 40% of about 30% of the decision making.
- [43:29]
Interviewer
I mean so the funding that you're getting will affect some of the soldiers in their decisions whether or not they like to defect or not. But not all of them. Others are. Some of them will look and say well am I going to be provided for? Am I going to be able to have a life? And they'll base their decision on that. But others will not look at that at all and they'll just say I want to get out of here. And they'll come for other reasons.
- [43:55]
Suthit
Yes, because they inquiry before they defect, their friends are okay or not. They were definitely inquiry. So at that time their front defectors are okay, they got better life. So they were definitely dry I think. So that is some part of the impact to their decision making.
- [44:20]
Interviewer
Are some of the soldiers, given that it's five years on, are some of the soldiers asking questions about are they going to be held accountable? Accountable for crimes they may have committed?
- [44:33]
Suthit
Some okay, some people like all the five year they are serving, like if they send to the front line. So some people I think no, no, no, I know some story like if they send to their friend like some people like all this along the way of the cook time like they are serving inside the military, they don't want to detain behind the PDF so they go back and like they are detained behind the military. Some people they don't want to surrender at the PDF tax law so they go back to the military. So some people are like. The conscription because of the conscription law, some youth and some men are detained by the military. So that kinds of events they want to run away to the PDF. So the comparing these two events, the soldiers who are still serving until now around the five years so that kind of in my point of view, they don't want to detain by the PDF textbook so that kind of things at the time they don't have guilty, they don't have mercy to the civilian, they are still serving for they want to stay serving for the military and then
- [46:32]
Interviewer
on the side of the people the resistance movement is there. When soldiers are looking at defections, is there a desire to want to hold them accountable or to forgive all of that and not look at what they did in the past and just welcome them or is there a sense of justice and vengeance?
- [46:57]
Suthit
Yes PDF like they understand the I shall they understand that they have humanitarian mindset. So if they crush one soldier or if they crush groups of soldiers they don't want, they are not killing them so they accept their defection. Some soldiers at the time even they are catching by the billion they are still stacking their mind is still sticking with the military. So at the time PDF are like very kind to them and they Are not killing anymore.
- [47:52]
Interviewer
I mean, I'm also wondering from the standpoint of like nug, like do they if a soldier defects after five years and wants to join the people, do they forgive or look away from the atrocities they may have committed? Or do they want to look at justice mechanisms in those cases?
- [48:12]
Suthit
All the organizations like PDF and Energy and some defection organization, all are accepting the defection. Until now, before they accept, they are checking the background or the trust issue. So after, after the accept.
- [48:35]
Interviewer
Because there have been questions about Transitional justice after the coup and holding those accountable for crimes they committed. But it's interesting to hear that if a soldier may have committed some crimes while serving, but then after committing those crimes, wants to defect and join the people, there are not justice proceedings at that time, they welcome them.
- [49:03]
Suthit
Regarding the Transitional justice now, like we are taking the documentation, like some are like participating in criminal cases, some are not. So, so now is documentation stage, I think. But for all I know is some like can give their evidence to the IMM or that kind of case. We are transferring to the respected organization, related organization. So some organizations are taking the documentation regarding the Transitional Justice. I am not sure yet.
- [49:55]
Interviewer
So when we spoke before, and especially in the first year or two, there was a lot of hope that defections could really be the thing that turns the tide. That it could really deny the military of many active serving soldiers and that there could be a high number of those that were defecting and leaving. It's been five years. The military is, you know, we can talk about what we think of as the numbers and where conscription has played a role. But looking back to those early months and those early years, did you have higher hopes? Were you more optimistic as to what defection could do and what high numbers you may be able to achieve?
- [50:42]
Suthit
Not very. Despite that, because in the revolution, division is also one string. Like the surrender is also one string. Like the PDF got like frontline battalion, like one battalion or something. There's also one string. So so many strings may be in the revolution, some are like political stream. So I'm not disappointed regarding the defection. I think like all the human beings have different brain and different considering and different mindset. So even though the brainwashed persons, like this number is already high actually. But if like more than this number is like we are expecting not only me, I think all the people are expecting. But as you all know, this is the brainwashed person. So we cannot expect, we cannot hope a lot of very highest number from them, right?
- [51:55]
Interviewer
And now where has conscription played a role in what's going on with the military and with your work. Because now you. You don't have volunteers who have joined the military for whatever reason they want to join that you now are trying to convince to leave. But with conscription, you have young men who are forced, sometimes literally abducted, kidnapped and forced to be able to serve. So they don't want to be there. I think if you look at defection, because they don't want to be there, of course they would want to leave the first opportunity they have. And the military knows that. They're making sure that they don't. So have you been involved, has your work been involved in conscription in any way? And in trying to prevent youths from being conscripted or helping them to have an escape route once they are.
- [52:54]
Suthit
Mostly some of the family members of this kind of youth, like asking for the help to take back their son from the frontline battling. So like if we can reach the this area, we are helping. If we cannot reach this area. Like example, like from the ee, like from the kia, from the like PDF. If we know with the kinds of tax force we we help. If we cannot reach the kinds of area, we cannot help. So some kinds of helping we are, we have done like this, the. This time, this year in last time, the three young men like the inside the forest because they are kidnapping with the construction law after the descent to the front line, after training, they send to the front line. So their parents are asking for my asking to my husband to help their children. So the three soldier reached the area, we know that's why we can help. And the task force, they give the money and they send back this Yemen to the place wherever they want to go. Otherwise they don't know the area. They did not eat even 10 days inside the forest. So the other kinds of cases are so like not so many. Some cases, some soldier also like their family lost the connection. But did they give that photo, they gift the name. So like if we can reach the area, we can help because the family want to know whether they stay alive or not. So even the youth from the conscription law, also the family, they want to know whether they stay alive or not, even if they are dying, like they have to do the funeral service something. So if we can reach, we cannot reach. We could not help.
- [55:30]
Interviewer
But in the case of these three young boys, you were able to find them and save them.
- [55:36]
Suthit
Save them.
- [55:36]
Interviewer
That's incredible.
- [55:38]
Suthit
Yes. I'm also very happy because my husband can reach this area. So we can save them.
- [55:49]
Interviewer
Right now in looking at the fighting force of the military. There have been many studies and much said as to how many losses have they taken, how strong and motivated. What is their morale in terms of how they fight with conscription, is it really working to be able to give them more soldiers and to make them. To give them more strength? What what can you say about and what is your thoughts and analysis about how strong the military continues to be on the ground and with conflict?
- [56:25]
Suthit
How strong? As long as they can collect the conscription, the color they use with the conscription law, their manpower will be strong enough to beat the battalion. But I think from our side the Turkling Gate, if we are more strong in the Turklinge fighting, we can win. I think whatever drone or like the high tech drone or high tech something otherwise with the manpower or high tech or high strategy otherwise we have to lost our manpower a lot.
- [57:21]
Interviewer
Now what can you tell us about the numbers when we're looking at defection? As the months and the years have gone on, the. The numbers of those defecting have. Have those numbers gone down? Have they stayed consistent?
- [57:37]
Suthit
Maybe consistent not down. I think because the individual coming and from the running from the battalion also I think consistent not. Not very dull.
- [57:52]
Interviewer
Right. So before you were talking about some of the work that you were doing through breaking brainwashed, which is your channel to. To. To kind of break through the conditioning that those in the military circles have that they're being told lies, they're being fed propaganda. The the truth outside of their life experience is very different than what they are being told. And the military is trying to. To prevent them and stop them from getting this accurate information. Can you talk about that process and what it is that you're trying to tell these soldiers to break their brainwashing?
- [58:34]
Suthit
Just now I'm like just now I mentioned that we are presenting about the brainwash. How the brainwash like the defect soldiers talk back how they overcame the brainwash, how they overcome their cdm. What is their current condition. So because the people mindset is like if they are okay, they want to join. If they are not okay they don't want to join. So the defender soldiers current life. Also we are asking them if the defective soldiers current situation like the physically mentally or all are like very peaceful they want to join. That's why we are releasing the episode about the CDM soldiers current condition as well. Regarding the propaganda. Actually sometime my husband do the like psychological. Some. Some cases of the regarding the part of the propaganda. Sometime like he is using the kinds of psychological cases. I think we are doing fact checking Also so this fat is round this. That is what military doing the propaganda in propaganda, what facts are wrong. That's why this is not correct. So that kinds of proof, fact checking also we are doing.
- [60:21]
Interviewer
Is it hard for soldiers to come out of that conditioning and propaganda mindset?
- [60:26]
Suthit
Yeah, that one is one of the engaging. Like they want to defect. My husband is talking with them and talking like about. About. About the limited time. So he can determine like whether he really want to join the defection or he just lying. He can determine.
- [60:54]
Interviewer
And what are the challenges with the soldiers and letting go of what they believe to be true?
- [61:04]
Suthit
Actually the belief of the soldiers is their belief. They can destroy their belief by the evidence. Otherwise we cannot destroy their belief. We just give the. We just provide the outside information only some soldiers like when I study the defection, even though my husband. So I give this supporting document. I give the information outside info. So many outside information. Like even they saw with their eyes the evidence what military is cracking down. What military is doing so that they know. They notice that what military is doing at the time. They noticed that in their brain, in their mind. So all the soldiers, like we let them. We let them see their condition like what they are doing. We just like point out only when they undergo the real evidence. Like they turn their mind to the civilian.
- [62:17]
Interviewer
I imagine that there is also a challenge when soldiers accept that. That some of them have committed atrocities. Some of them have done terrible violence. And they have done it because they were following orders. But now when they start to change, they could have feelings of enormous guilt and regret and even hating themselves for what they did. And it could be very hard for them to forgive themselves. Is that something that you and your husband have also dealt with?
- [62:49]
Suthit
I met the soldiers, defect soldiers who are like seeing the evidence only they like they are bidding that they are the perpetrator. Or we. I did not met any. I did not met many, many soldiers. Some soldiers I met with, like, they have to take the documentation. Like regarding the Rohingya cases. Like, he has to record the documentation. That's why he is guilty. He said he feels so guilty. Like, that's why like, if the punishments are given, he will accept. But he said he did not kill any people. He did not beat any people. But he just take the documentation. The documentation is incorrectly documented. I met with the one called by law who is involving the Javaida bombing. So they don't know where they have to go. Even though he climbed up to the Jaffaida, he know the place where they. They have to Bomb. So that kinds of people, I asked how you feel, you feel guilty? He said he feel guilty because the pilot only bombing at the time. He said that's why he want to give his time the rest of his time for the civilians. That's why he want to stay in the liberated area, only he don't want to stay at the city also. That's why he want to compensate his like his fault. So the other kinds of people also I met. So all the people are different and different story. All the, considering all the decisions are also different.
- [64:58]
Interviewer
I mean all of us like to think that we're the good guy in the story, you know, none of us like to think that we might actually be the bad guy. And so I can imagine it must be really hard for some soldiers as they break through conditioning to have a whole paradigm shift and suddenly think, oh, maybe I'm not the good guy, maybe I'm, I'm not the good guy in this story. And the two examples you gave, they're profound and they're profound because they're not exactly the perpetrators, but they're not exactly innocent. You know, they're complicit in some way. You talk about a soldier who's documenting the crimes that his fellow soldiers are committing and then as I understand, leaks those documents so that others can see, so he's, he's seeing these crimes around him that his colleagues are committing. And then a co pilot who maybe he isn't pressing the button that drops the bombs, but he's on a jet fighter helping to carry out a mission where innocent civilians are dying. So you know, if these people are, you know, a lot of the people doing this, they, they numb themselves through alcohol or through the brainwashing or through, through propaganda thinking that they have in their, in their unit. But if they're able to break outside of that, thinking this is something they have to live with forever, you know, this is, this, this is a really deep pain, really deep psychological pain they have to heal and they have to overcome from what they did. So you've been doing this work for a long time and, and this is, we, we talk about psychological burdens and trauma and, and you've not been living an easy life for the last five years. And so you're not really stable yourself, but you're building this stable organization that is dealing with further instability and great trauma that's all around and on a day to day basis you're encountering people with really difficult stories. And so how do you manage your own mental health and Balance how do you manage the trauma? And how do you wake up every day optimistic and proactive to want to continue fighting this good fight.
- [67:15]
Suthit
Actually we lost our home. I left my home, my parents home actually in 2022 when my husband defect. I and my husband flee first. After that my family also have to run away from our home. Because the military they use the force and they look around my husband in my home at the time. So all my family members are also running. And we lost after the finally we lost our home. So that trauma is very big for me. And also how I manage my stress. And because of the stress I got some disease. Also I got stomach pain along the way. Every day I have stomach pain and also my skin and my body or not very healthy enough. I cannot sit anymore. Like if I sit over one hour, I cannot sit because my body is like and not unhealthy. And also like my thinking about some of the concentration are also drop. So how I manage is I look forward only this. We have to win in this revolution. So sometimes if we we want to rush about four or five days we cannot rest. Even my husband, especially my husband. I got the motivation from him. He is doing like the kinds of meetings, media. Every day he is happy because he lost everything. But every day he has motivation. He got motivation. Every day he is doing like happily. And why Sometimes I consider why he every time have been he said inside the military. Staying inside the military is very darkness. The freedom from this darkness that every day is happy for him. So at the time I also consider. Yeah, this time our country is like taking us time. We are staying under this darkness. But staying inside the military for him is very darkness than the condition. So we are doing our job properly every day. Even though now five years late already we are consistently doing our job. We can stop our job, but we could not stop because a lot of beneficiaries are around with us. A lot of like CDM soldiers, spouses, soldiers and a lot of women are around with us. So we have to fight for them. We have to strike up for them and also for our country. A lot of civilians are like getting the trauma, getting the trouble by the military. So our happiness is not matter. Our unhappiness is not matter. Every day we have to strike. Every day we have to fight for the freedom. So I managed like this.
- [71:26]
Interviewer
It's very powerful. And there are some international observers that are suggesting that five years on the Myanmar people are tired and that with the election that the appetite and the motivation to continue the struggle and continue resistance that. That it's just been a long time and that people may. That. That Burmese people may be ready to accept some kind of future that where they can just have some kind of stability and some kind of life, even if. Even if it's under the military in some way. But it sounds like from what you're saying that the motivation to continue resisting the military has never been stronger. So would you. Would you argue against that kind of thinking from that some in the international
- [72:15]
Suthit
community have said actually human beings tired. But for our. When we met with like Myanmar people inside the revolution like in US just now I I met with like Myanmar activist woman who was staying in US So she said all the Myanmar people in US like they protest like in front of the which embassy? China Embassy to regret the sham election of the military. So she wonders because in US people have to work every day. If they could not walk, they will not get the earnings. So they came and they produce for the Myanmar and also the Myanmar beavers stay like stronger for the revolution. They are still listening the revolution rises.
- [73:36]
Suthit's Husband
The revolution news the revolution information and
- [73:40]
Suthit
also in ground some of the PDF they are still resisting even 5 years we met with 5 years they are still resisting. Some are leaving already of course, but some are still still resisting. We are also still resisting. So all the Myanmar people are even though tired they are still resisting the Myanmar military. Our hope is only one thing. One day we have to free them. Regarding the defection like while we are asking to defect like some of the some of the soldiers defect that even though wives are also along with them. Even though their children are also along with them. So we are supporting the kinds of spouses of people's soldiers. They are also still resisting the Myanmar military. Actually. Staying inside the military is like. They are still resisting the military even though in Bora area they are illegal staying. They don't have accommodation, they don't have enough food. But like they are doing the general war guard jobs and they are still resisting the military. They will not go back. They will not go back and. And they are not going back to the Myanmar military. They are still resisting the military. The military afraid that their people will defend to them. So last time they are their people and they are resisting until now. So the military is the most afraid things of the military is their people is defending them. So DSD resisting and they are still defending. So the international community and the peoples of Myanmar and the war. I would like to request not to forget the kinds of people who are still resisting the military who Brief for the Revolution from the military.
- [76:28]
Podcast Host
We've come to the conclusion of today's episode, and as the conversation you've just heard underscores, the humanitarian situation in Myanmar's dire and demands immediate attention for millions of people. The struggle for survival is an everyday reality, and the need for urgent humanitarian aid cannot be overstated. Through this platform, we aim to raise awareness and keep the focus on these critical issues. But awareness must lead to action, and this is the point where you can come in to make a real difference. By supporting the nonprofit mission of Better Burma, you'll be contributing to our our wider effort to bring hope and relief to those who need it most. Your donation can go towards providing much needed support to vulnerable communities across Myanmar and along the border that continue to be impacted by the military coup. Visit Better Burma.org donation to join this effort.
- [77:56]
Interviewer
Ram.