An Umbrella Policy

Summary

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Insight Myanmar Podcast – Episode Summary

Podcast Name: Insight Myanmar
Episode Title: An Umbrella Policy
Release Date: August 7, 2026
Host: Insight Myanmar Podcast
Guests: Tontone and Libra (Pseudonyms)
Main Theme:
An intimate, unflinching oral history from two youth activists behind the iconic “umbrella protest” in Yangon, weaving together stories of trauma, courage, resistance, and Buddhist symbolism in the ongoing struggle for democracy in Myanmar.

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Episode Overview

This episode brings listeners face-to-face with the lived experience of Myanmar’s Spring Revolution through the voices of Tontone and Libra––young organizers behind the viral 2022 “umbrella protest.” Their discussion traces their journeys from ordinary students to resistance leaders, the trauma and loss sustained through the military's crackdown, the evolution of subterranean protest strategy, and the deeply cultural and spiritual symbolism woven into resistance acts. The interview moves between personal narrative, analysis of movement dynamics, moral questions around inclusion, and ongoing appeals for global solidarity.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Personal Transformation from Student to Revolutionary

• Ordinary beginnings: Both guests stress they had no political background before the 2021 coup:

  "Before the military detention... I was just a normal student... I didn't know anything about the political things." (B, 04:46)

• Impact of the 2021 coup: The February 1, 2021, military coup was a watershed, searing a sense of duty:

  "From starting from 2022 to 2025, every day is just like a nightmare for me." (B, 04:46)

• Violent escalation: Both describe transition from mass peaceful protests to violence:
  • Libra recounts witnessing protesters run down by military vehicles:

    "[The] car is crashing on me and a lot of my comrades are under the cab..." (B, 09:07)

  • The experience of seeing friends killed or detained shaped their choice to resist.

How People Choose to Resist

• On continuing vs. retreating:

  "We choose not to go back to our normal life because we care about our dead friend's last wish." (C, 24:52) "Our country is not even normal, and what we have been through is not even normal... Even if we went back, that won't be normal." (B, 25:20)

• Forms of resistance: Not everyone is a frontline fighter. The episode details roles from underground media, flash mobs, to fundraising abroad.
• Personal calculus: Guests reflect on their own strengths (e.g. communication, organization) and weaknesses (e.g. not being able to fight physically), emphasizing the need to adapt and contribute however possible. (B, 28:58)

Flash Mobs and Creative Protest Strategies

• Description of flash mobs:

  "There may be a street or a mall...and suddenly from nowhere, 20 to 30 students appear with signs saying down with the dictatorship...Then they disappear as soon as they appeared." (A, 32:33)

• Organizational safety:
  • Separating protest groups for security.
  • Scouts check areas prior; organizers hide their identities; each cell has limited knowledge of others to reduce risk if detained. (C, 38:01)
• Humanitarian work amidst chaos: Libra describes organizing oxygen supply during COVID and merging fragmented strike groups into the “Yangon People Strike”. (C, 35:45)

Slogans, Symbolism, and Buddhist Imagery

• Slogans:

  • Protest banners were mostly in Burmese; one powerful slogan adapted from Daw Aung San Suu Kyi:

    "The only real prison is fear, and the real freedom is freedom from fear." (C, 46:12)

  • Other slogans critique the military’s use of religious ritual while committing atrocities:

    "Don’t put the umbrella [on the pagoda] with your bloody hand." (C, 42:32)

  • The umbrella (“tee”) is a crowning Buddhist/political symbol—the act draws on centuries of spiritual meaning and the duality of merit and impurity.

• Historical resonance: The umbrella protest references “8888”—the 8/8/88 democracy uprising—directly linking the current revolution with Burma’s storied history of dissent. (A, 55:40)

Execution of the Aug 8, 2022, Umbrella Protest

• Planning & symbolism:
  • The umbrellas, carried openly in monsoon season, bore the Burmese numeral 8 visible only from above. This conceals the message from nearby soldiers but broadcasts it in photos.
  • Chosen location: Downtown Yangon, near Sule Pagoda—an epicenter of both Buddhist life and past turmoil.
  • Logistics:

    "Six people actually—four people holding umbrellas, one taking photo, another taking video...no scouts that day." (C, 64:50)

  • Execution:

    "The picture we got had to be taken twice, because the first time it wasn’t clear with people passing, so we risked it again." (B, 65:21)

  • Proximity to police/military stations increased both risk and impact:

    "Every mission we did was around or near the police station...We want to show them we are not scared of them." (C, 68:32)

The Human Price: Arrest, Torture, and Surveillance

• Imprisonment:
  • Libra was detained for his leadership role, endured interrogations, beatings, solitary confinement, harsh prison labor:

    "I was there for one week in the room 8ft by 8ft. No light. They hit me, analyze what I was doing, and wanted to follow up other members..." (C, 94:26)

  • Security precautions with phones/groups were crucial ("my phone was new...they only knew one name," C, 98:02).
  • Upon release, neither could safely return home; regime violence extended to their families.
• Family trauma:
  • Tontone’s parents were detained and beaten when authorities couldn't find her:

    "They called me all night...If you don't pick up the phone, your mom will kill you...I heard every of the sounds, them screaming." (B, 105:15)

  • The military uses psychological warfare, threatening loved ones over the phone in real time.

The Issue of Leadership and Long-Term Resolve

• Morale after five years:
  • Both admit exhaustion and trauma, but say the will to resist continues—especially among those who lost loved ones. (B, 78:48; C, 79:55)
• Leadership vacuum:

  "We still need a good leader...We could be maintained and could set up goals...We still haven't [one] and have to admit it." (B, 84:03)

  • Aung San Suu Kyi’s imprisonment left a vacuum, especially among mainstream Bamar activists. Both guests value her sacrifice but are aware of controversy surrounding ethnic exclusion (notably the Rohingya). (B & C, 49:16–53:59)

Risk, Motivation, and the Source of Courage

• On fear and courage:

  "Everyone is scared of being dead. We do also. But we are not scared of that, not scared of the military. We just care for, if we die, I can't say goodbye to my mom." (B, 73:02) "Our courage comes from what I was seeing, knowing, understanding...the more I see people killed, the braver I become." (C, 76:55)

Diaspora Activism & Ongoing Movement

• Fundraising and symbolic items: After fleeing, activists continue supporting the movement by selling revolutionary umbrellas and items around the world—a way to fundraise, spread awareness, and maintain solidarity. (A, 118:57)
• Underground actions continue: Despite intense surveillance, flash protests and symbolic dissent persist in Yangon, though at far greater risk. (C, 120:45)

  "We still have the underground movement...some of the members of our committee are still there in the Yangon area, stay doing what they can do." (C, 123:12)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On trauma and necessity to bear witness:

  "Every member of our team has shed a tear at some point...And similarly, you might find yourself affected...But please listen. Please bear witness to what this guest has to say."
  (A, 01:31)

• On transition from peaceful to violent suppression:

  "When we go outside after 10 or 9 pm, there is no more safe anymore. And in our country, a boy being a boy in Myanmar is not even safe. Yeah, that's why."
  (B, 25:20)

• On solidarity and determination:

  "They must be afraid of our vice...We are not actually in the prison. The real freedom is freedom from fear."
  (B & C, 46:53–47:51)

• On Buddhist symbolism of the protest:

  "Don’t put the umbrella on the temple with your bloody hands."
  (B & C, 42:32–44:28)

• On the “umbrella protest” moment:

  "I think we deserve to take a risk, because it's really worth it."
  (B, 65:21)

• On being pressured through torture of family:

  "I'm on my business trip and I can't come back right now. Where's the problem?...my mom told us she lost two teeth."
  (B, 105:15–107:03)

• On the importance of international witness:

  "If we don't have a chance to speak it out like this way, most of the people can't know."
  (B, 124:07)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:31 – Content warning and call to bear witness
• 04:46–09:04 – Tontone recounts witnessing deadly crackdown on protesters
• 11:20–16:42 – Libra’s background, initial involvement in protest, impact of first casualties
• 24:52–25:20 – Why some choose continued resistance; the impossibility of “normal” life
• 28:58–32:33 – Strategic adaptation: Why/How to conduct flashmob protests
• 35:45–40:06 – Libra merges strike groups, develops secure protest cell structure
• 42:32–44:28 – Symbolism of Buddhist umbrella in resistance
• 46:12–47:51 – “Freedom from fear” and its contextual meaning for protesters
• 49:05–54:11 – Aung San Suu Kyi, evolving opinions, the Rohingya question
• 55:40–68:43 – The execution, symbolism, and risk of the August 8 “umbrella protest”
• 91:41–103:31 – Libra’s arrest, beating, and survival in prison
• 105:15–107:03 – Tontone’s story: Parents detained and tortured
• 117:14–124:07 – Choosing exile, keeping the revolution alive through diaspora fundraising
• 120:45–123:12 – Flash mobs and protest actions, deepening risk under surveillance
• 124:07–127:08 – Reflections of the guests on sharing their testimony

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Reflections & Final Thoughts

• Both guests repeatedly emphasize that "normalcy" in Myanmar is a myth; activism is ongoing, and the wounds of repression run deep. Yet, they locate immense spiritual, communal, and historical meaning in the struggle.
• The umbrella protest serves as a totem: a defiant visual act rooted in both Myanmar’s political history and Buddhist culture, designed to be illegible to the repressive eye at street level, but legible and inspiring to the world.
• The trauma of direct violence, psychological warfare (especially involving family), and the continual threat of arrest are described in emotionally raw, open terms.
• There’s both hope and candid disappointment about leadership: the movement misses unifying figures, but young, creative leaders are emerging.
• The episode closes on gratitude for the global audience, a request for tangible support, and the unyielding assertion—Myanmar is not normal, the fight continues, and all concerned should remain vigilant and engaged.

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Further Action

• Support the activists directly: The episode includes an appeal for international listeners to fundraise and show solidarity by purchasing resistance-designed items or donating.
• Links to recommended action and solidarity resources are provided by the podcast.

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This summary preserves the spirit, tone, and detail of the conversation. Names have been anonymized for security. The episode offers an invaluable window into the courage, ingenuity, and cost of youth resistance in today’s Myanmar.

Transcript

[A]

I would like to caution listeners that the upcoming interview touches upon various topics that some may find upsetting. In an effort to tell the real story of what's now happening in Myanmar, we encourage our guests to share as they feel comfortable doing, affirming that this platform is one that could bear the weight of their story. As traumatic as the events have obviously been for a guest, they can affect even those of us listening from a distance as well. I'll be honest, every member of our team has shed a tear at some point or another in the process of bringing these interviews to you. And similarly, you might find yourself affected by this story. If you feel that some of this content may be upsetting and what follows, maybe consider listening in stages or whatever works for you. But please listen. Please bear witness to what this guest has to say.

[B]

Sam.

[A]

For this episode of Insight Myanmar Podcast, we are really privileged to be joined by two guests, Tontone and Libra. The names may not be familiar to many of our listeners, but the images should be for anyone who's been following the Myanmar conflict. Some of the most iconic and incredibly revolutionary protest that has been seen was in the form of what has been called the umbrella protest. And these were very daring activists who for the August 8th anniversary one day they put the number eight on the backs of umbrellas in the Burmese sign for eight for the number eight. And they took pictures holding these four eights as four umbrellas throughout the city of Yangon. And we will be linking these photos to this podcast. Personally, when I saw it, I was completely blown away. I had never seen anything like it. I never thought I would have the privilege of speaking to the organizers and the subjects of this photo and learning about what their backgrounds are and what went into this piece of revolutionary resistance art. Because it is, it is truly something magnificent visually as. As incredibly courageous in terms of what they did. So with that introduction, Tonton and Liberia, I thank you for joining us and the conversation that follows.

[B]

Before the Military detention act in 2022, I was just a normal student. I'm the final year at the university with psychology major and I'm just a normal student and I didn't know anything about the political things and I'm such a normal person. But suddenly when I know that in February 1st in 2022, I heard that the military was the shit. So I talked like this is end fell and we start just a normal activity, like we peacefully strike against something like that. We didn't do anything violently or something. But the military never showed the, how can we say x You know, and as the world can see the military was very. How can we say it was really hard for me. But actually from starting from 2022 since 2025 every day is just like a nightmare for me. There's a lot of the cases during these three years. Like we have been doing a lot of the activities in Yangon. Like from Yangon people strike but the very popular activity is one of the umbrella strike. But since this case happening and we have been a lot of. My friend was arrested by this case and I was friends to miss out. But I have been living alone in here for almost three years. We have been married around. Nearly around one year only. I'm the only child and I have three family members. My mom, my dad and only of me. And I'm the final year student and that's all. And we are just making of the sisculine print Indian business at my family business. But when the tutorships happening and I'm decided this shouldn't be because two of my parents are stay in the generation from the 88, 1988. So they also tell me if you feel like this is endful or if you would like to be against something you can do as you want. Don't be thinking for family. So I talk like actually I have no tension at that march in the first of like February or March we still didn't know that. We just know that we must have to be protect. This is endful. So that's all what we thought. But like in June of the March or April they are action and the will of the real two acts is very rude and very. I can't even imagine with my words. And that's so bad. That's the worst of my life. And I'm not sure that you have it or not about the land case. We are just protesting for our Tuangsi suji. But in December 6 and December 6 and 5 of December yeah they just crashing. They just crashing all of us with the car, with the car in the morning of the 8th, around 15 everything like you know we are just protesting like we must have to be just we went to democracy or something like that and we just heard the sound of the car breaking like the beer wings and just saw what happening and they just crashing out everything what they thought. And when we see our comrades some of them are just enter the car we and some are just throwing out a way just because of crashing by car. That's so. But I think so and.

[A]

And you saw, you saw this everything

[B]

I saw it Everything. Because when I crossed the road, the car is crashing on me and a lot of my comrades are under the cowboy. They just. All of they just doing by purpose, not by crashing out. Not just. Not just doing. No, no, no. They are just crashing out. People with a lot of. With their gear what they could do.

[A]

This was a car or a tank.

[B]

It's a car with a double cap.

[A]

It was driven by the military.

[B]

Yes, surely. Yeah. This is. This is one of the. This is one of the bad things I have been raising. But there is a lot of the moment such the kind of. So this is what I can say for that right now.

[A]

I'm so sorry.

[B]

That's fine. But I'm fine because I. I haven't and I didn't hurt anything in that day. But a lot of. A lot of comrades, a lot of students and a lot of any other people. A lot of Myanmar people are getting hurt. A lot of mentality and some are just stay in the prison with that kind of heart and disease. Yeah.

[A]

I'm sorry. It's. It's hard to know where to go from there. That's. That's so much to take in that. That you've been living with, having been through that. But as far as you're comfortable sharing, I. I think it's so important for our audience to be able to hear firsthand our audience around the world. As hard as it is, I think what you feel safe in sharing I think is as hard as it is for all of us to listen, it's important.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I'm not an atavist or I don't have any political background. Before the group I was just involved in the revolution as a civilian. At first I don't know anything about the politics. But. On 1st February I heard the used military tutorship the Our leaders Aung San Suuji and our president was detained by the military government and everybody was amazed. Everybody amazed with the news. And I. So do I. Yeah. I want to say how I became to

[B]

be

[C]

deep involved in the revolution in earlier state. I have. Some of my friends are journalists, some are civilians and I think they were. My inspiration to become an invest in this revolution. On February and March I'm just walking on the street and following the crowd of people who is protesting on the street. I don't know too much about the politics and revolution but. I just. I think my feelings start in March because on February the people are just doing what they can do in the earlier state of the revolution. Just mass movement on the road but the military started shooting. Maybe on 14March in Yangon. One of my friends was shooted and he died. So. Yeah. And. I got some feeling with how they can. How they can do it to kill the people Government kill the people. Oh, I was amazed. Then I just know to respond the military as much as I can. And I must. Be in the revolution as much as I can. Yeah. I did a lot of things within this five years. Yeah. One of the reason is she is calling me to be in the student union of our institute. I mean our institute as MBDI Syngme Training Vocational Training Institute. We are making a group as a student union to help our teachers, CDM teachers and send off the students walk off our school everything start from it. Yeah.

[A]

What subject were you studying?

[C]

Okay. Bfe. BFE means building features and equipment. That is. That course is only for six months Course. Yeah. But I was graduated as an engineer. I. I got the PN civil engineering degree before. Before. Before 2018. Yeah.

[A]

So you wanted to be an engineer?

[C]

I think I wanted to be an engineer. But I. I didn't become an engineer

[B]

Now I was studying west major from hospitality citizen Catherine and my major is retail operation.

[A]

So you're young students studying hospitality and studying engineering and you're. You're just looking to get a livelihood to become an adult and make a living and have a life. And these horrors that happen with the coup that directly impact you, your families, your lives, your friends. They turn you into revolutionaries.

[B]

That's quite a transition surely because now we just feel like we just live in two different lives before the coup and after coups. To be honest with the like the other people. If there is nothing special case for X we won't be can artists to become in here. But X, you know our what we true is no will be same like us. No will be same like the others. Because when it started in 2022, I'm the 2000 pound son in that time I'm just only 22 years old but we are from the same school Singapore Myanmar Vocation Training Institute. That school was bordered by the Tousansuchi. Yeah. So everything was made by the government Singapore and Myanmar. But there is two major like engineering and hospitality. I'm attending from the hospitality and he was a senior batch first batch.

[C]

I'm from second batch.

[B]

He's from the second batch and I'm from the fourth batch. He is senior. But after the coup happening and when we do the protest and I notice everyone who really interested for protesting and who really know the truth but Most of the time I just to have fun because next. You know, in that time there is not much of the dangerous. Everyone is just. Everyone is stay on the street and they just protest peacefully. Nobody is no one is hurt them. So everyone involved. But after the three months or four months later the military was starting shooting. And in that time a lot of most of the people that don't come out to protest for their safety, but any other youth and students. Every time we thought what we could do in the city people are just staying trying to be normalized and we can be do like this. The world must have to be known what was happening in here. Because the military was every time they are trying to show like our country is peacefully living. Everyone is peacefully living right now. Actually not. Actually not, dear. They never stop. That's right. They never stop shooting to us even though we didn't do anything wrong. So we feel like this is so endful. And I also accept that if they will do anything to me and I won't be in here. But in 2022, in September 16th, one of my friend who is also one of the PDF Yeah, I got a connect with him and he connected him and I have to come to Yangkong within one week. And after I arrived to there, I would like to meet with you. And I said yes, of course, let's meet. But before we meet, if we said let's meet in next three days. Before next three days I got a phone call. Hello. And they said Is that your friend who called? Yeah, he's already dying. Check it out. I was so amazed. We are just trying to meet in next one day or today. But what I received in one call is he's already died just because of the mallet tree. And it was just last only two days. What he was arrested but within two days. How he could die? Even he didn't do anything wrong. And I was just so amazed and I was so sorry for his loss. And because he is my close friend. He is my childhood friend and I know about him very well. He also have a mom who has suffering for the last stage of the breast cancer. And now his sin is also lived before her. And I can even imagine what he gonna feel like when he. When she hurt his sin is die such that kind of kiss a lot, a lot. That kind of kiss make me more stronger. Make me too fit to come here to stay like in here. Yeah.

[C]

Everything. Everything we face in the past are very terrifying. As she say her friends also died and my friend too. And. Oh, and the on the zone 5 crashing our protest by their military double Kafka. These are the reason I'm still here involving in the revolution. Also after imprisonment I was detained in 2022. August. Yeah, right.

[A]

So after a couple of months when the p. The protests were peaceful and many students and many people were joining, once it got violent, once the soldiers started shooting, as you say, many people, they stopped the activity because it was just too dangerous. Everyone stopped going out. But some people stopped everything and went back to normal life. Other people decided they needed to resist in some way. They needed to resist through media or Internet or PDF or flash mobs or strike committees or going out of the country. They needed to do something because they. They couldn't go back into normal life. So at this moment you have. When things become difficult, then you have a real test of character.

[C]

You.

[A]

You see who people really are. You see who you really are. And it's something that none of us can know who we are unless we're in that moment. We can think who we want to be, but we don't know who we are unless we're in that moment. Because you were there, you experienced it. What do you feel is the difference between those people who decide to do something, whatever it was, whether it was media or PDF or strike committee and the difference between those that just decided to go back to a normal life. What is the factor that makes someone make a decision? I'm gonna go right or I'm gonna go left.

[C]

We choose not to go back to our normal life because we care about our dead friend last wish. Their last wish is to resist the military government to get fair condition in our country.

[B]

Yeah, and I talk like we can go back to the normal life because our country is not even a normal and our feelings, what we have been through is not even normal. So we can go back to the normal life and we can be a normalized and we won't be if so we won't be so enveloped because there's a lot of the person who have been already suffice for the X revolution. So what we have been through and what we have been faced is now when we target everything is not that much. Some of the students already have been dying. Some the whole family has been dying just because of the airstrike. A little kids every in our. The whole country. The whole country is not even a normal. And how can we go back to the normal life? That's impossible. But there must be some other people maybe talk like we also have a family to protect. We also have whoever to protect. We have a wife to protect, we have a doctor everyone have to protect. But if we didn't do anything right in that time, we won't be protect anything. What we love even though ourselves we can be protecting. Everyone must have to know. But everyone thought like if we don't do anything in the time they won't do anything. That's truly wrong. That's not. If they will have such a kind of thought, they won't shoot like us. Because if they thought they are the government, they want hard acts like this way, they are not even a human. They are not even a human. They are just like kind of the evil. Just think like even a normal person can kill a person to a normal person if they don't have any personality case or something like that. But I don't even have idea how they could kill their. How they could kill such the kind of a lot of people in one speech. Yeah, yeah. You know, that's so bad. That's why we can go back to the normal life. Even though we're back to the normal life, that won't be normal. Maybe we, we are just brainwashed. That's like ah, we are just normal. Everything is fine. We are safe. Actually we are not. Actually we are not. Even though when we go outside after the 10 or 9pm There is no more safe anymore. And in our country, a person who didn't do anything, who didn't do protests or whatever, even they didn't do anything when they go outside. A boy being a boy in Myanmar is not even safe. Yeah, that's why.

[A]

So when it gets. When the military becomes violent and it's no longer safe to go outside and do normal protests, those who decide not to go to a normal life, they have to decide what to do. And that's where some become PDFs. Some do things online, some are media, some go outside the country and do things there. Strike committees. There's so many different options as to how you can resist. You don't need to go to the front line and fight. There are many other things to do. How did you. For both of you, how did you decide what you wanted to do?

[B]

Actually. What we were thinking, we were thinking what we could do in the future, what we could do for more and we can go to the front line just because of our family and our background and we are not really used to it. So we must have to be think first for ourselves what we are strong for and work for our weak points. My weak points are such as like And I'm very weak and I can fight. So what my strong point I can communicate a lot and we have a good idea and we must have to rethink like what we are good for it. We is born in Yangon. So we know well about the Yangon about like the street and venture or something like that. So everyone and talk like what we could do in future if we can do protect animal what we could do any other acts and there's a lot of ways like the supporting PDF fundraising and any other ways or something like that. But what we could do is we just stay in Yangon. But most of the people in Yangon in that time are just trying to be act like it normalized so we can accept that we have to show that to the war we are not normal. And we have been state abused by the military. So we have to be. How can we say that we can do alone with our group. The whole people, the whole country was been suffering for this military coup. So everyone must have to be know that. And everyone we would like to be included with. But no one couldn't be just because of their safety. So we trying to be protest like a flash mob like for two or three minutes in a day. But we did a lot of discount for that. But when we go to the one place and we make a flash mode in that kind of place of the people are just think like oh, there's a lot of the state people and the Jew are protesting state protesting. They are still aghasting and the protest is still continuous thing. We just need to be giving to people such kind of doors to everyone.

[A]

Yeah, the flash mobs are amazing. And for those listeners who are not familiar with the term flash mobs or haven't seen the video, can you describe what is a flash mob?

[B]

We are just requesting what we want and what we want to be. Like you could see in the media and we post a lot of the photo after we make a flash mark like we went back at democracy what we want and we have request for what we want. And within these two or three moments we have been already writing down the Ben flag and any other people. And when we go to the one place and when we mark in that place, we will do the strike in that place. And we we made a group, we set a scout and around two or three days ago we make a scout. And every day when it feels Safe and around 30%, around 20 or 30%, around 20 or 30% we make a flash mold in that moment.

[A]

So for those who haven't seen the videos. There may be a street or a mall or a neighborhood or park or something and you'll there there's someone filming because it has to be filmed to show that, to be able to amplify it. And it's just a normal Yangon scene, as you say. It looks like it's the military's desire to want to show. Yeah, everything's normal, everything's calm here. And then in the middle of that calm scene, Suddenly from nowhere, 20 to 30 students appear with signs saying down with the dictatorship. We want democracy. They run through the area, then they disappear as soon as they appeared and. And it's very dangerous because if they. If they choose the wrong time or place or they just have bad luck or they can't get away fast enough, the. The penalties for the punishment for simply holding a sign saying we want democracy. It's a very risky thing to do. But it's one of the creative and courageous ways that Myanmar youth have been showing. They don't accept the dictatorship even when it's not safe to voice that. So this is the flash mobs you've been organizing?

[B]

Yes, yes.

[C]

At first I served for my student union as a leader in the union student union and I became to help the people in Covid season. You know, on June, July, July the COVID started in our country. So many people died in that period. I provide so many oxygen concentrator to the people. And I was very busy with that humanitarian work. After the COVID season on October, November in October, November I look back the protest protest how Yangon people stayed doing the protest on media, social media. How much people stay interested or not in Yangon politics. I looked at that and I found that that's very weak after the COVID season because people are busy with their family case and the disease. I make the solution for that and so many. The protest committee, the strike committee separate in Yangon and they're very weak and working for their activities. I combined all the group and I established the Yangon people strike on

[B]

the

[C]

20th of November 2021. And we start doing Flashmore of SAM protest or SAM activities to resist to influence on media, social media with what Djangon people are doing in Diane we stayed fight against. We stayed protest against the military government. Just go with the flash mode from November to August 2022. After that I was detained.

[A]

So you became a leader for some. For many of the strike groups. That was a big deal for you because on one hand you had a lot of responsibility in organizing what you would do. But on the other hand, it also really put a target on your back. If, if you're seen as a leader, if you're identified as a leader, the military is going to try to come after you much harder.

[C]

But, but I, I haven't shown my face anytime and I just hide. I don't show any identity of mine. Just manage the protest group and just organize. But I'm also good to the street and protest with my people, with my mom voice. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

But even though you weren't showing your face, that was safe. But there's no guaranteed safety. You could have friends that get detained and their phones have your information. We know that Telenor turned over all the activists, all the data, the user data to the military. The, the military arrested and in some cases killed people because Telenor had given all of the data. There was. They were. They had ways of digital surveillance and other methods. And so even as you were trying to be safe, you in that leadership position, it was still incredibly risky.

[C]

Yeah, dangerous, yes, very risky. But I, I was just hiding as much as I can and I don't show anything about my identity and I separate the group to. Make a protest. We have three group to combine. The first group is. The first group is to make an idea for the ideology of the activity or what we want to message to the people with the banner we write on the panel with same sentence. Yeah. The second group is to learn about the area we protest. We call it the scout group. Yeah. And the tech group is group is the campaign group. We was just doing what we have to do to protest, but we have to persuade the people who follow us to do like our adverb did on the other place or. And how they can do like that. Yeah. I don't let the three group don't know each. Not to each not to know each other and not to know me. One of the member of one group. If one of the member of the group is detained, they were not.

[B]

He.

[C]

He will not know the other members of the other groups and also me like that. Yeah, yeah. Right.

[A]

So you had no background in this kind of activity, but you were already learning how to have separate cells, how to put people in separate cells so that there would be safety. So you're already developing strategy even though you don't come from this background.

[C]

I think I learned from what I was doing all the time. And that's like the game with the military life game. Life game with military government. If, if one. If I can hide I was detained or Killed. I plan carefully for that. Yeah.

[A]

So you said that you one of the activities you were doing was writing protest signs. Can you tell me some of the slogans that you were writing? The Burmese and then the English. What you were actually writing on the signs?

[C]

Most of the time we wrote the Burmese language more. Yeah.

[A]

So tell me what you wrote in Burmese. Say the Burmese words and then tell me what that means in English.

[C]

So I just want to tell the. The slogan we wrote on the banner on. On that August 2022. That was very close moment. I was detained in prison. Yeah. In Burmese it's song like.

[B]

Means in law.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Means the military.

[C]

Military government.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

The action of the military government on the law is like a sovereign.

[B]

They use the military words use the law to could be as a servant to act not for them. The military was just trying to use the law to kill. Out in Myanmar our temples bakugos are very prioritized for eggs. So we just want to say don't be put the umbrella on the temple with your bloody hands. What we want to mean is. Means. What we means is when we make umbrella or something precious things at the temple means we are making a good things in. But they are trying to make in good things. In the other hand they are trying the people. They are killing the people by killing the people with a hand. Don't put a good thing with this hand too. What we want to mean is military

[C]

government showing two feast. I mean.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And so to give some background for listeners at Buddhist pagodas there is a T or a picture an umbrella like a golden umbrella on top of.

[B]

On the very top of the temple. And when someone is put that means the very great things he is doing. But that's why what we said he is doing the great things with this hand. With this hand. With the hand who is killing a lot of the people with that hand. So don't do the same things at the same time.

[C]

So he's trying. Trying to show the good ends one he's killing the people civilian often can.

[A]

Right. And so the in Burmese Buddhist culture going back hundreds of years with the kings putting the tea, putting the umbrella on top of the pagoda spear. This is a consecration. It's consecrating the pagoda. And it serves two purposes. Not only is it a consecration event which is a formal ritual religious event. That's one part. And that means kind of the pagoda is finalized and it's. It's. It's. That's the final act. But the other at the other important piece of that is who is doing it and the person that is doing it is often a person of authority. It's an act of great merit. It's a. It's a very formal and joyous occasion. And so it's a very powerful imagery you have. When you say don't put the tea on the pagoda with a bloody hand, it means that you're. This is a very sanitized and pure event and you're in inferring that these military leaders are doing these outward events that are manipulating Burmese Buddhist culture, but they're. They're doing it with blood on their hands. So you're, you're saying this is not a pure event. We. We're not going to fall for this act because you have blood on your hands.

[B]

Yes, surely.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So that's. It's great. It's great to be able to get the exact words of what you're saying because there's so much meaning and symbolism in these words that the English language audience doesn't necessarily understand. So it's important to be able to share why those slogans are important. Is there one more slogan that you can tell us about?

[C]

Another story, Salukan, I want to say is. Is in English that is written by Dong San SUU Kyi. The book published by Don San Suji that that was the only real prison is fear and the real freedom is freedom from fear. That was on decimal fight question with the car. Yeah. We want to say about we have no fear. We are freedom from fear.

[B]

What we want to say is we're not afraid of them even though they are carrying a gang or shooting two eggs or maybe they got two eggs because we have nothing. We don't even have. We don't even have a stick to. Right. Back to that. We have nothing. We only have just a paper and we only just have a sallow gan paper. That's all what we have.

[C]

They must be afraid of our vice.

[B]

Yes. Even though they are carrying a gang or even though they could shoot out. We're not afraid and we don't afraid of it because we are already afraid in front of fear and what we want to do fear and what we want to scare. What we have to scare is we can. They just need to be scared of our voice and we don't need to be scared of the against or something like that.

[C]

We are not actually in the prison. We are not actually in the prison. There is nothing that. That is not. How can I say free freedom. The real freedom. Yeah, I mean. Yeah. The real freedom is freedom from fear. We are not actually in the prison, but we. If we have fear, it's like we are trapped in the fear. Trapped in the fear. And we are like in the prison.

[A]

It's interesting because that's. That's an Aung San SUU Kyi quote. And freedom from fear is. Is such a powerful imagery that she tapped into. But Aung San SUU Kyi has also become a divisive figure and especially among the youth. And so as you became politically conscious and as you begin to understand the. The suffering the ethnic minorities have been through, did your opinions change about Aung San SUU Kyi? Did you still hold her as kind of a leader and an icon of your movement? Or did it become more complicated?

[C]

Yeah, that's a difficult question. Yeah. I mean every. Everybody is no perfect.

[B]

But yeah, for my opinion, she is. She is such a great one and we can get another like another one like her. And she's such an incredible one for our country. And that's why everyone love her so much. Like he said, everyone has a weak point and strong point. But we can be. Even though maybe she also have a weak point and maybe she also have some weak point in politics or something, whatever. But we can be ignored of her forgiveness because she gave everything. She gave everything for like a half of her life or stay in the prison just because of X. Not. Not for her, as you know. But for now, Auntie sue is already at the age of around 80 and we so sorry for her because she's already at the age of 18 and we don't want to be. We don't want to be tired of her life in such a kind of way. Because even though she is at the age of 18 and she still have to be live in the prison with a lot of the necessary things. But the military was. Doesn't support too hard in that kind of situation too. So we. We still love her and we kill her everyone. But when she came back and we don't want to be in such the kind of the political things again. We just want to let her live with her son in the normal life. Yeah. She.

[C]

She already. She already doing a lot for the things for her people. Yeah. Throughout the. Throughout her life till 18. Yeah.

[B]

What she did is more than enough.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Certainly I understand in among. Especially among urban Bamar Buddhist backgrounds where. Where those feelings of appreciation would come from. I think they're valid. And you talk about forgiving her for some of those mistakes. I can't help but think of how the Rohingya should feel and if the Rohingya should also try to forgive her, I think those are much more complicated feelings.

[C]

That's a very dangerous question for us actually.

[B]

We just don't want to be given an answer about the Rohingyar because Rohingya politics very complicated, very complicated. And we can know that much in very detail.

[C]

So that's why we don't know much.

[B]

Yeah, that's why

[A]

I understand that. I also to push back a little bit and just out of curiosity, if you are part of this student activist movement wanting to bring democracy and an end to military in Myanmar. Democracy one hopes is inclusive democracy. And the question comes who gets included? And in the last attempt at democracy in the transition period that democracy included a lot of people, but it did not include the Rohingya. And so I think it is a fair question to ask you as democracy activists to ask you uncomfortable questions. Yes, but you've chosen this role. So one of those uncomfortable questions is, you know, recognizing or asking, you know, to what degree were the Rohingya excluded from democracy before? Do you think they were excluded or

[C]

do you think already recognized the Rohingya people? The only answer is Rohingya people have their right. Like our ethnic group in Myanmar. Yeah, that's it. We need to be fair.

[B]

Yeah, I'm not really. Because even though I'm recognized and it's very risky to say something about Rohingya.

[A]

No, no.

[C]

We already recognized the ruin your people because they are living in Myanmar. Living year in Myanmar is all very long time ago.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, but. But I want to follow up with what you said. You. You said it's risky to say something about the Rohingya people. So. But it's. It's 2026. So I understand in 2016 it's very risky. Yeah, but do you still think it's risky in 2026 to be a democracy activist and speak about the Rohingya?

[B]

I mean risky, mean it's not just because of the Rohingya telling about the Rohingya. I'm just a normal altifist. So I just want to be share you truly moments and what I thought everything is truly. But I don't really know about Rohingya and I think I have no chance to say something if I. When I said something wrong and there's not good anything for you. That's why I said that's not really good for me to say something about Rohingya.

[C]

We are living in Yangon, Yangon city and that region is very far from us. But we heard about the Rohingya news. We feel like we need to give our sympathy to the people. Yeah. We need to show our sympathy to the people who are suffering with so many problems in their life. Yeah.

[A]

I want to move to what you're most famous or infamous for, and that's the umbrella pictures of August 8, 2022, I believe it is. And I remember seeing these photos, as I say I remember them clearly. It was literally a rainy day in Yangon. There you could see the. I think, like Paris, Yangon is a. Can be a beautiful city when it rains and, and when the monsoon comes and. And it certainly brought back memories of seeing a wet Yangon. And in these images you had, which I now understand, I understand Liberia, you played a great part in organizing and Tonton, you were one of those four people. We never see the faces, obviously, but the pictures show four individuals, I believe, dressed in black with a black umbrella. And the Burmese sign for number eight is on there. So there's four umbrellas. 4, 8, 8, 8. August 8, 1988, that is being shown in August 8, 2022, referencing the cyclical and historical connection between these movements. August 8th is one of the most important days, if not the most important, I often say, for Burmese people, for allies, for diaspora. The two dates of the year when all of time stops is February 1st and August 8th. These are the dates that you don't plan anything for. All of your focus goes to these two dates in the calendar year. So August 8th is tremendously important. And there's lots of activities. There's worldwide. There's film festivals and protests and gatherings outside embassies and speeches and editorials. And so many things happen on, on, on August 8th to remember as with February 1st, unfortunately. And, and so before these dates, before February 1st and before August 8th, there's often days, weeks, even months of planning. What are we going to do? What are we going to do for this important day? Let's plan it. Let's get ready.

[C]

So on those days, on Those days near August 8, the Military Security was very hard to pass through to make an activity or do protests within those days. So we have to discuss about how can we, how we can do safely to their security, how we could protect

[B]

safely in that day.

[C]

Yeah, and we want to make that movement in the middle of the town in central area.

[A]

Sule Pagoda.

[C]

Yeah, Sule Pago Pagoda. So. We have to plan that every military security have to see, have to find ads when doing the activity. So we discuss a lot, we plan a lot. We are busy with Finding the idea how we can do. At first I don't know how to do. How to make an activity. How activity will be on that August 8th. I just found that if they didn't. If they don't notice ads when we protest that will be okay in the central area. So we need to protest with. Not with the banner. Banner is heavy and this and everybody will see us. So we need to find the another way. We need to use the. How can I say the casual thing.

[B]

Yeah. We talk like. We talk like we can be. We can be protect with a lot of a group of the people because that would be recognizable by the government. But we also have to be talk like we are just want to be showing off what we want to be. So we have to take a risk too.

[C]

We have to. We have to find and use. We have to use the thing what that everybody.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

They can recognize and everybody use every day. Yeah. In their lifetime. Yeah, yeah yeah.

[A]

So everyone uses an umbrella during monsoon season.

[C]

Yeah. Just there's a rainy season. Yeah, yeah. The umbrella. The umbrella. The sign of the eight written or umbrella is only visible. Only can be seen from the top. Yeah, from the top right. Yeah. In Sule Square there is a bridge. Square bridge. We can take photo of the umbrella. We can show what we are written on the umbrella in the photo. Yeah yeah. We are just. We have just an idea of the umbrella protest first. But we don't know. We don't have any idea what we have to written. We have to write on the umbrella at first. But near August 8th we have to do an activity on August 8th. We. We all know. We all know. Yeah. And that is the annual combined the 888,888 must written. Must be written on the umbrella. That's idea became. Yeah.

[A]

Was that one person's idea or was it many people collaboratively talking together?

[C]

The ideas started from me because I was thinking about how we can do with the products or how and saloon every time. Every time, every minute. On those days when we are doing flash mower activity. The idea is that for me but I only think about the umbrella. But near August 8th we discussed about what we have to write on then we discussed about an eight.

[B]

Yes. We decided to put it in number eight by barrings.

[C]

The one who paints on the umbrella is in the jail now.

[B]

My home is C screen printing. My home, my family business is a siscan printing. So we can paint and we can make an umbrella at our home.

[C]

Altogether four members of our strike committee was detained. Yeah.

[A]

So One person painted good calligraphy, good handwriting. One person painted four eights Burmese character eight on. Because Burmese has a different numerology than than the numbers that we see Painted four eights on four umbrellas. White paint on black umbrellas. Big, big black umbrellas. Clever. For two reasons of three reasons. One is that everyone uses it. Two is that you can fold it very quickly and then it can't and doesn't have to be seen. And three is that it can only be seen from above. So. So these are three really really creative ideas that you have four people really at least five people, four of holding the umbrella, one taking the picture. Of course you have scouts.

[C]

Six people actually are four people holding umbrellas and one is photograph taken photo and the other one is taking video

[A]

six people and then scouts all around. I'm sure you have scouts all over the city streets that are that are looking but you have six people that are in the line of fire that are in direct danger. Tonton, you're one of those six people. Was it hard to make that decision to hold the umbrella?

[B]

Yeah. Before the explorement we have been doing a lot of protesting together and in that day and we before in that day we have been already discusses what we gonna do in that day. And we also must have to be care about our safety. But as you know the military also cared about on that day. So their security are very streeted on that day. And we have to be think about what we could do. But we talk like we can do. We can't do anything in that day so we must have to be think like we have to be doing it in prayer. So we thinking like yeah, like he said everyone is holding the umbrella because it's a rainy season. So the first thing is the umbrella and the number eight means the 88. So we put it down and we just held the umbrella. But in that day the picture, what we got in the picture is Sulay that photo we must have to be taken twice because the first time when they shoot the capture is not really clear just because of the any other people. So we have to capture it again. But I think we, I think we deserve to take a risk because it's really worth it.

[A]

These photos went around the world. Yeah. What time in the morning did you take the pictures?

[B]

Things in the morning of around 8am we started from there actually we started from the Pujol Sea market.

[C]

Start from the Pujol Market. Now we go to the Sule Square.

[B]

We just checking out around parks around the market and when we Feel clear. We take photo studies and when we take a video and we try to move another place and we check it out around because in that day and there is no any other scout just only six pieces in passing. So we just need to be check it out around first when we feel safe in that place. We just came out of the across the walk and the photographer was just taking a picture of X. That's all.

[A]

And there were no police or security or military around.

[C]

There's a police station.

[B]

There is a police station in Sule because there's two police station. This is the bridge and we are just crossing end of the bridge. But there is already a police station and in this side too. Yes. Very near every mission we did around or near the police station the military because that makes them very angry and they make me feel like this will make them the pressure.

[A]

That's incredible.

[C]

We have to influence influenced on the social media. People were interesting interested on us. Wow. The guys are doing that.

[B]

This guy really doing this near the police station near the military cop. Yeah. That's why what we are doing near around then because we want to show them we are not scared of them.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

If we fail we maybe die or we will shoot should.

[B]

Yeah maybe can be shipped by then but yeah can be sure by then.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But we suggest on that day it

[A]

was exactly when I saw those pictures online a day after you made them, that was exactly what was going through my mind. I think I shared those pictures on Insight Myanmar with a post saying for those people around the world who don't realize this is not just a casual picture. These people are all risking their lives. They could be killed on site for what they're doing. It's so courageous. And to go on top of that for those who aren't, who haven't been to Yangon or don't know Yangon geography, you know, Bojo Exe Sule Pagoda. This, this is downtown. This is the center. This is. I mean you're literally walking on the place where the Saffron revolution took off where Kenji Nagai, the Japanese photographer was killed. Your police stations, nearby military barracks in that area. I mean you. You are. You are not on a side street by any means. You. You are. I mean shredded on would be the only place more public than this. You're, you know, you. You are going to the billy of the beast, so to speak in in and not hiding and being very public but very smart with you know, with as you say choosing the umbrella and the courage and the symbolism was just. Was Just tremendous. When you actually did it, was it safe from start to finish or did anything happen that was risky or scary?

[B]

Actually every time I left from my home to make protests or to do some same movement for our democracy, I thought like maybe today I couldn't be come back home today maybe because everything can happen when we think uncle outside to the street. Maybe I could die and maybe I can come back to home. Everything can happen. But every time I talk like it's fine even though I take something or even though I happen even what happened, it does have it because we have been doing what we want to and I think it does have. So I didn't think like I think all of we have such the kind of same things when we came out from the home. It's okay. Even though we can came back from the home today. What we did today is what we want to do. What we want to shout out to the war and we did it. So it's fine. Even though that's risky or even though that's unsafe, everyone know that this is now safe. This is very dangerous. Everyone know it because like I said, even they have again and we don't even have a stick to right back to that. So that's fine. Even though it's risky or whatever. We have been doing what we have to and I think we did the right thing.

[C]

If we are afraid to face with the risks, if we take no risk, there will be no story of us like 8888. Yeah. And we cannot give the message to people all over the world. If we're afraid of facing with doing the flashmore activity like yeah, are you afraid of death? Maybe yeah, sure we do. But we have. We have to do our duty for our people.

[A]

So if you're afraid of death, how do you. How do you move yourself to put yourself in a situation where death could be the consequence? Where does that courage come from?

[B]

Everyone is scared of being dead. We do also. But we are not scared for that shooting a can or buying in the hand of the military. We are not scared of that and we are not scared of the military. We just care for our if we die, if I die, even I can say goodbye to my mom or something like that. It's just because of the small feeling make me weak, make me feel weak and make me feel to scale of that. That's all. We are not scared for facing with the military or taking a race. We just care for have to believe even without saying goodbye.

[C]

I'm not the only one who afraid of that everyone like in the war zone, in the war region have their scarab. So if we won't do that, who will do that? For the people who are facing with losing their family every day on the war region we have to send our vice to the world.

[A]

Where does that courage come from?

[B]

Everything we to be honest, this three years journey is very long and very difficult for us. What we have been through is not really a normal and no one any other can be imaged because that's so bad. Every of our carriage came here because by doing these politics within these three years we have been meet with a lot of the person we have heard a lot of the information every of our courage confronts here. As for me, I'm the gay and I'm only just around 23, 24. Sometimes I get depression and I feel very tired for being this. But when I feel I'm so tired and when I feel I just want to be stopped. Everything in here, everyone who I have been meet in this politic feast appear in my eyes like one of my friends. When I feel like I'm so tired for being this. I'm so tired for struggling for this life. Because like I said, we are just living in two different lives. We can go back to our normal lives. Now we are struggling. We have to be resist everything and we still have to be continuously even though we are tired. So in that time, every of the people I have met in the war region, my friends, my comrades who have been dead in this journey, everyone is reminded me again and again they have been already given of their life, their family, everything I have stayed me and I can stay to any other things. And when I can, why do I need to be give up for that? And that's not fair for me. And if I do something, if I give up in that time, it's unfair for them. It's unfair for who have been suffering their life, their family, everything. So we have to be continuously for that. For such that kind of person. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. Our courage, every of our courage came from everything what I was seeing, what I was knowing, what I was understanding within those days after the coup. The more I see the people killed by the military government. I have I become to be brave more and more to help our people, to send our voice to the people all over the world to help us. Help us. Yeah.

[A]

Right now there are some in the international community that are starting to say that this conflict has gone on so long. And the Myanmar people themselves, they're tired. The. The will to fight, the will to resist. It's getting less. They just want. Many people are losing their motivation to keep going and they just want some kind of peace that comes. And often when you hear this argument it's this is. This is framed as a. A reason for some kind of negotiation with the military, some kind of acceptance of the military that something has to happen to bring peace, you know, peace and stability. I'm doing air quotes peace and stability to the country because the people have lost some of their motivation and morale to resist. It's been five years. That's a long time for any people. Do you feel that this is true? Do you feel that the morale is getting less and people are willing to accept something or do you feel the energy is still very strong?

[B]

Actually everyone is really tired just because of the five years. But even though we tired we have to be continuous. But that's true. Everyone is tired because to be honest, people from the Yangon is more noticeable because everyone. It just seems like so normalizing and most of people are. Seems like they're not interested in politics even though when we do something at that time they're gonna think like they're doing it again or something like that. But yeah, what we have to admit is that everyone is just tired because it has been already five years of this journey and we need a good leadership to not to be get too depressed, not to be get to unconsciousness. Yeah.

[C]

I think this situation of our country complete should not end like in the ceasefire process because. The military government, the one who was doing a lot of bad things on our civilian. We have to punished the military government which does not with them. Yeah. Not like the ceasefire. We have mental down too. Yeah, but. But we shouldn't give up like this or. And we will not give up. We will not give up. Because we cannot get back our people life more. The death of the people will not be back anytime. Yeah. So we have to go to the end. Yeah.

[A]

Now you mentioned one of the things you need is good leadership. And I wonder what you think of where you look for leaders now or if you feel that there are leaders. I mean we can look at the PDF, we can look at the strike committee, we can look at media or diaspora activists, we could look at the NUG depending on where that leadership is coming from. When you speak of good leadership, are there examples where you see there's good leadership that you really respect and are there other places where you feel the leadership is not as strong as it needs to be?

[C]

I'm so hoping for the. Imagine all the Good leaders who can lead the revolution to get cessed.

[A]

You're still waiting?

[C]

Yeah, I'm still waiting. But how can I say I don't want to mention name or any organization.

[B]

I also don't want to be mentioned about the organization and an exact name. But to be honest and the things that we all have to be as subjects, we still need a good leader. We could be maintained and we could be set up goals for the politics. Especially in this spring revolution and for our revolution. We still need a person who could set goal what we gonna do in that day by day and what we have to do by all together and what we could support and what we are going to like. We just need someone who could lead everyone. But we still haven't it and we have to be admitted.

[A]

You do have to admit it. I appreciate your honesty and I think. I think your carefulness and not naming an organization leaves no doubt which organization you're not naming. And, and. And I think that it's. I think in revolutions it's incredibly important to have honesty and transparency even and especially where it's the hardest case. Because this is a revolution. If you don't name the problem, how are you going to overcome the problem? So that's why we ask these questions.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I got it. But you know, for the saturation acts, you know the saturation we still need a person before the call. Everyone is just straight from the Asan Suji. Most of the Myanmar people knowing the politics and interested politics just because of Astsuji because most of our people are talk like the politics are not concerned with that. Their because our country is a developing country and most of the. Most of the people are not really educated. And just because of. They have no chance. They have no chance. It's all are just because of our country system. But so they are just surviving and busy for their living. And they have no time to interest about the politics and what the war is happening. That's why. But after the coup after Dosu was not Balaam with X and because she was stay in the prison in the time. In the time people are just listening of the hope if Dasu wasn't with me with X what we gonna do what will happen? This is 80% of the Myanmar people dogs are like this way. So we have to be changed this mind. Because we have to be stay continuously and we have to be stay developing even she stay or not. That's true. But most of the Myanmar people talk like if Dosu will not belong with X anymore is it Possible to developing as for our country, it could be or not, or something like that. But for your question, my answer is we still need a person and we still need a good leadership, and we still have no one who could lead out of acts. Yeah.

[C]

I think the good leaders are essential in every set. I mean, in diplomatic way, in military. Yes, but like that. Yeah.

[A]

So.

[C]

So in this condition, the way the military, our military size, how can I say, PDF or er, site. There are many good leaders on a better fee. Yeah. But in government side of. More good leaders are essential, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's a very powerful thing you both have just said. It's very honest, it's very vulnerable, it's very transparent. I appreciate you bringing that analysis to us. It's very powerful to think of the center of gravity that Aung San SUU Kyi held. And when she was gone, the vacuum and the emptiness that. That created, especially among, you know, urban Bamar Buddhist students, you know, especially what she meant for them. And the emptiness makes sense that you had to find your own way. It's very powerful hearing that. And it. It's also, you know, I think that. That as we're talking about leadership, you have definitely shown yourselves as emerging leaders very much in your own capacities. But you're right that as as much as you could be, you know, you are these independent emerging leaders. No, no government leadership is telling you or helping you how to do the flash mobs or the 8888 umbrella scenes or everything else you're doing. You're. You're completely doing that up and running on yourselves. It's incredible. But you can't represent Myanmar to foreign governments. You can't advocate to international organizations as to why help is needed and what it is. You can't negotiate truces and agreements between different groups and bring them together. So, you know, you're doing. You're emerging leaders in your capacity as much as you can be, and which I think this conversation has demonstrated. And as you said, there are PDF leaders who. Same thing. Are there emerging leaders in the battlefield, but there is another emerging leadership that. That are doing things above your pay grade, above your age level and qualifications, that you recognize something needs to be done here, that to support all of these other things that are incredibly innovative and that are keeping this revolution alive, and the funds from the diaspora that are coming in as well. All of this. But that you're identifying, there is this missing piece that. That would bring it all together, if I understand you correctly.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah. So I Want to go back to the umbrella protest? Because we, we talked about what happened before, we talked about what happened during but we haven't talked about what happened after. And you know you gave some forewarning that anytime you step out of the house, you know you may never step back. You know the danger you're getting into.

[B]

When I'm taking this picture, my mom wants it. My mom once said on deck number five after the crashing we call process since that day my mom said on the night other night around like 11 or 12pm When I fell asleep but when I woke up at midnight and my mom was stay awake and I said like mom, don't you sleep or no. I heard that some car is crossing in front of the house and I talk like it was the cow who waste can to detain you. That's why I'm worried for you. And I'm still awake and I talk like oh even though I don't care to them and my mom care and this is the kind of the impact to my family from that day I start thinking like when I do something risky then in that day I will come back to home. So in that kind of day when I make umbrella projects and I didn't come back to home around one week just to be secure for my family. That's the only thing that I take a risk for me. I don't feel I'm taking the risk. It's okay for me.

[A]

And when you were taking the actual pictures on the day of the umbrella protest the police station was nearby. But was there any risk that happened during the photo shoot?

[B]

No, nothing, nothing. Everything is fine. And when I take in the photo.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. Right.

[A]

Okay, then what happened after?

[C]

Okay, so I was detained on 20 August. Detecting the the umbrella protest on the 8th of August. So over 10 days long I was detained. The reason is because not because of the 888 protest. They cannot follow us because we plan everything carefully not to be traced. But they already know me my appearance before that activity I was nearly arrested four times for four times. Yeah, before. Yeah. But unfortunately after on the 20th of August I was detained because I just go to home because I miss my mom. I have so many safely safe house that I was sick within those days. I just go to went to my house and I want to be in my mall and yeah, that's when I go home. And after one or after 10 days, 13 days they came arrest me. Yeah. So at first I had a long hair. They know my appearance not directly my face. They Just how I look like health, fair complexion with long hair. They don't know the face but my appearance, my height defying everywhere. But I don't think. I didn't think they know they already knew my house, my mom house. That's why I went home and I rested. Yeah.

[A]

That must have been really scary.

[C]

Yeah. The military intelligence always washing my house. Yeah. They took me to the interrogation center I think the first one is the central interrogation center of the Yangon is like. A military compound. Yeah, compound. I was. I was there in. I was there for one week in the room 8ft. 8ft room. No light. I can't see anything from the room. They gave me food two times but very little. It's not enough. They hit me this. How can I say it. They took me out, hit me and they make analysis of what I was doing and they want to follow up the other the member of our organization and take back to the room for one week. Then they took me to the other interrogation center. It's not like the interrogation center but it's like military J managed by the same soldier there. So many people, so many people arrested. That prison there. Yeah. Altogether 59 days I would say in the interrogations Interrogation center. Yeah. Then they took me to the prison. I was sentenced for three years with heart liver in insane prison.

[A]

Did they know how important you were? Did they know everything you were doing?

[C]

Not no, Because I have so many names. I was doing some activities with Sam groups with one names. So they just know only one of my names, not the other names I have sit all about this names.

[A]

But they couldn't look in your phone they couldn't track your phone and figure out all your messages.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Yeah, they look my phone but fortunately at the time my phone is new I just bought and I only have six phone numbers. Wow.

[A]

Oh, that was lucky, huh?

[C]

Yeah, I was very lucky. The telegram and signals for the terror granted sickness. We have the control center if someone was arrested, just kick him out from the group. From the telegram group like that. Yeah. So they didn't know not too much about me, what I'm doing, I was doing. Yeah.

[A]

And they also couldn't track your contacts.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Because it was new.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

If you had your old phone, no

[C]

photo in the color too. Right.

[A]

You would have been in a lot of trouble if it was your old phone.

[C]

My old phone was in the other place, not in my hands. Yeah, yeah, right.

[A]

That sounds very fortunate.

[C]

Yeah. And insane prison. As soon as I reached to the insane prison they awaited me to beat me. On the first day of staying in insane. The. How can I say. The leaders of the our ward. Command that to take me to him. And I When I reach there. Sit down. And this dad beaten me. Why are you doing that? Why we're doing that? So many questions.

[A]

So these are the prison guards?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And they're beating you with sticks?

[C]

Yeah. The skull of beaten on my back last one year or when one man. Yeah. Just to disappear. Yeah.

[A]

This must have been the first experience you had with physical violence.

[C]

Yeah, first experience when I was in insane with hard labor. Because with hard labor I was doing a lot. A lot of have things like that like cleaning the drain, cleaning the drainage system. I had to clean. I had to clean all the weeds from the toilet that's passing through the septic tank. The. The waste are throw away binder drain. I need to. I have to clean the drain every day.

[A]

Oh gosh.

[C]

Over two years.

[A]

For two years.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

It's awful. But you. When you talk about this and when you talk about the beatings, you smile, you laugh. You're able to find humor in this

[C]

because of the question they asked me. The first question is why did you do that? What is your trust and answer? Not. Not just about my interest. I have sad feelings because my friends died. The last wish of my friends is to resist the military government by protest. So I doing the protest all the time before I was arrested. The second question. What is your education level? I was graduated. I'm an engineer. I study. I studied this. I study. I was graduated. I'm trying to graduate because I study for to decide what's wrong, what's right. At that time he told me. So we are wrong. They told me and then beat me. Yeah. I think I am right. That's why I smile.

[A]

That's great. And then how did you get released?

[C]

I'm just sentenced for just three years. So full days after full day, I released.

[A]

Oh, so you served your term? Yeah, yeah. And then after you were released, both of you decided you have to leave your country?

[C]

Yeah. She already. She already.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Since that day, August 29th. He was arrested at that night. At the same night my home was already arrested too. Actually, they are trying to arrest me, but unfortunately I wasn't at home. So they took my mom and dad. Yeah, my mom and dad stay with them in the dad Interrogation center. Yeah, interrogation center. They took my mom and dad before they took my mom and dad two days. Yeah, yesterday. But at that night they trying to go to my home and try to search Mimi because Like I said, my home business is screen printing. And they talk like all of the embryos are came out from my home and we made it. So they just took my mom and dad together to the immigration center. And they called me continuously all the night when you came at me, when you came back or not. If you not, your parents will die and we're gonna kill them.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

Or something like that. And they, they started messaging continuously. If you won't come back immediately, you will regret it about your parents come back. And I didn't respond to them because I'm just trying to be escaped from them at night. But they won't start calling to me the whole night. And they just keep calling to me. If you don't pick up our phone, your mom will kill you.

[A]

That's terrifying.

[B]

Yeah. So I have to pick up, I have to pick it saying, hello, I can came back, I'm on the trip. So I have to say, I'm on my business trip and I can came back right now, where's the problem? Or something like that. And they start talking to me, like start visiting my mom and dad in the phone. And when they screaming, did you hear that your mom and dad is screaming?

[A]

They were beating your parents?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

While they were talking to you?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

And I heard every of the songs, they screaming, oh my God. And I can say, stop. So did you hear the screaming? Came back right now. If not, you will regret it. We're gonna kill them or something like that. I said, I'm sorry, I don't know what is wrong, but I can come back right now. I'm on my business trip. If you have something to tell me, you can tell me directly, not with my parents. And they said, okay, we have nothing to say to you. If you won't come back, we will take them to. Or they just pick up the phone and they took my parents together. But after the two days later my parents released. But my mom told us she lost two teeth. Yes.

[A]

From the beating?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Jesus. So you had to make a decision whether or not to go there or not.

[B]

Yeah. The answer is so clear. I can go back. If I go back, there will be a lot of the people who have to arrest it. So we have to try every day and we have to be think for such the kind of situation. And most of the comrades would precede me and who aroused me or tell me, you can come back, they are just treated you so you can come back. You have to receive it and they won't do anything to your parents. Don't worry too much but you can come back. But I'm not sure you. You cannot feel my feeling. I just want to be fit for such the kind of hardened feeling I just want to feel just baby. Just scoring to me not to my parents. It made me feel more guilty everything I did it but when it has to be feeded it's my parent. It's not fair.

[A]

That's why you were in Yangon.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I mean I. I'm. I don't know what to say. I think for any listener here. I think if you are a listener and you're imagining that an authority is putting a phone to your ear while. While physically beating their parents and you are hearing their screams in the background and being told they're going to be killed if you don't come. Even if it's a threat and it's not true. I mean the psychological terror, the anxiety ripping you apart. It's hard to think of something crueler it can do to just torture you and mess with you when you're away. I don't have words for it. I just encourage listeners to somehow think of what you would do if you were in that situation because it is. It is incomprehensible what kinds of feelings. It is incomprehensible to me what kind of feelings I would have if I was in that situation. I can't even. I just can't even begin to think what I would say if I was in that situation.

[B]

Me too. I was so lost in that time and I don't know what to do and what to choose. The sure thing is I can come back. And another sure thing is even though I came back, they won't let them free to my parents. The sure thing is they are just taking my parents just to be true to me. So I have to be receptive and I have to be over it. Yeah. In this day my feeling is like I'm getting depression for really. And I thought like. To be honest, I thought like it would be really great if I die because what they want is to me and if they got to me or if they heard like if I was to die or they will gonna release to my parents or not. I'm not sure in that. In that time but at the same time I. I got it. No, it's not the right way.

[C]

It's important the other members, the security of the other member.

[B]

The. The main thing is the security for the other member so I can come back. But you know that in such a kind I'm taking a phone and calling, making a phone. They're talking to me. It came back. Did you came back or not? With such a kind tone voice and at the same time my mom is screaming please don't beat me anymore. I'm really hurting or getting. But my dad is requesting to me from the phone. Baby, can you came back. We really heard it and we can resist it of this heart anymore. If you could come back came back. But they are not sitting in purpose. They just shouted out just because of the military wanted to. They don't really don't want to be came back.

[A]

How did you know that? How did you know that it wasn't genuine?

[B]

Because before my home was arrested before 5 minutes ago I got a phone call with my home because when I said that we knew that he was arrested, he was arrested. I make a phone call to my home because one of the person who held the umbrella who stayed in the prison was stay in my home at the time. He stayed in my home at the time. So I have to connect to my phone. Mom, One of my comrades who called Libra is already arrested. I'm not sure I'm still safe. But they will come to home or not. I'm not sure if there's something in my home for my ID or for the umbrella or if there's something just deleted everything, just throw it out, everything. So I make a phone call and at that time my dad said maybe don't worry, if there's something happened, I will, I will tell them you are on the trip. But if even I say to came back, she will never come back. Just ran away to the home. So I said to my dad, like dad, don't worry, it won't happen. I just want to be went into you, but it's really happening. So when he said I told that I told them you're on the business trip. But they didn't stress to me and they beat us and we can't assist any more. Baby, could you please come back? And everything is what he have been already said to me. So I know that

[C]

I. I have to tell the location of their home when I was arrested. But I already know she was not in his in her home. That's why I show the location of the home. Because I didn't think they will not take their parents. Because when they arrested me at my home, they didn't do anything to my parents, to my family. I think that is their strategy. So I think I didn't think they will not take their parents to the interrogation center.

[A]

Psychological warfare.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I don't think I've ever had an interview where I've had to hold back tears so many times throughout the two hours. I mean, we know these stories of how sadistic and brutal and murderous this military is. We've heard so many things. We know exactly who they are and what their nature is. And yet they keep finding new and creative ways to shock and horrify you, even beyond how bad you think you know what they already are. And these examples you've given so many times on this episode. And I would just. I would hold out these examples to the international community, to those that are talking about a civil war, for those that are talking about both sides, for those that are talking about a military seat at the table, I would hold these examples. For those that are considering the future of the country and that are asking these sadistic murderers and rapists and torturers who break every promise they give to sit down at a table with their victims and survivors. It doesn't make any sense, you know, and that's why these stories need to be known. And, and that's why they try to keep them silenced. They try to scare media. They traumatize. If they don't kill you, they don't imprison you, they traumatize you to such a point that you don't want to talk about it. Because I. I don't say this lightly. I. I know, I know the process of you speaking about this is not easy. And they don't want it to be easy. You know, I just. I mean, your. Your courage and your commitment. Just, you know, speechless.

[C]

So after I released from the prison, I. I don't feel safe to stay in Yangon anymore. Because they all know my identity, my record, my fingerprint, my eye scan. They all know. They know all of my identity they have. So I don't feel anymore in Yangor, in my house. Send off the cid, you know, Washington to my house every day. Every time when I go out camping, they have all the record. So I need to move the other place. Maybe in Myanmar, liberated area of Myanmar. Or this place, second place across the borderline. It's difficult to choose at first because I haven't met with my family for a long time. I just want to stay with my family, with my mom, with my sister. But I can't because everything is not. Safe and it's unsafe for me.

[A]

So.

[C]

But I was doing non violence activity all the time in the past. But when I came out from the prison, the only one we to choose to involve in revolution is to go to the liberated area and study armed struggle. But I have no experience, there is no mind aspect, I think. So I have plan to. I plan to go out through the borderline and outside of the Myanmar and need to think for me to take a time how can I still help the revolution of the Myanmar from outside of Myanmar. Then I found the feminism aspect which is. Which I can able to do and stay out the revolution. So I chose this place.

[A]

And this is a good opportunity to say that part of your fundraising is actually selling the umbrellas that you made in that iconic photo as well as other items. And so, you know, for those that really want to support the resistance, support it financially and, and in solidarity, you have a shop where you are selling your, your revolutionary items that were used in, you know, in, in these activities and not the exact items but the, the, the same style and, and copies of them. And there are pictures around, beautiful pictures around the world. Paris to Sydney to Mexico City to Chicago of Burmese diaspora and allies of the revolution with your items, you know, in safety being able to open their umbrellas and show or sometimes the lungji that opens, you know, the lungji will close and it will look like a normal, normal lungji and then when you, you, oh, you can open the lungji fully and there's a revolutionary message written on it. This is another clever item. And so, and so we will be linking your fundraising shop in this episode and we really encourage those listeners who have been moved and I think anyone who's been listening to this point has certainly been moved. If you're not a block of stone, I think you, it's. It's an opportunity to be able to support and stand by what you're doing. Yeah. And so what can you say about the activity still going on in Yangon? Are you involved in it? Is it still happening? What. What are the conditions of it?

[C]

So in this state, Yangon is very hard to make a protest or flash mobile. So we have only way to show our. To shout out our voice is only writing on sending and taking photo. We can do that all. As a recent activity for rejecting the election. There is a local movement for all over Myanmar. There's a silence. Right. You know, on Tzumar we made a simult reject military election. On the Zuban 10 there is a silent strike to remind the people to take back in the movement. We just took the cyborg and placed in front of the police station. Wow. Yeah, wow. A police station. And take the photo. The background in the background of the photo, there is signboard of the election, members of the military side.

[A]

Amazing.

[C]

Yeah. We. We take the photo. Yeah.

[A]

And amazing that you're actually doing this physically in an age of AI and generated pictures. You can generate in Photoshop anything you want and not put yourself at any risk. The fact that you.

[C]

No, we don't want to manipulate the people. We just want to show the. The real thing what we can do.

[A]

Yeah, it's amazing. And the risk to yourself, it's incredible. Yeah. So there still is activity. There are still underground movements who stayed in Yangar.

[C]

We still have the underground movement because some of the members of our committee are still there in the Yangon area stay doing what they can do. Yeah.

[A]

You have very rarely if ever had the experience of speaking so openly to the international community in English. Opening up about your story from start to finish. I know this was scary. I know it was risky. I know that it brings up certain triggers and traumas. I also know it can be therapeutic. There's other ways it could feel good. It can feel like you're releasing something. It could be both of these together. I'd like to ask how you feel having after these two and a half hours, how you feel having talked the way we have.

[B]

Thank you. Firstly, I would like to say this, thank you because even though. Even though we have been facing a lot of the things, if we don't have a chance to. What we have been facing and what we have been through, if we don't have a chance to speak it out like this way, most of the people can't know. So thank you for asking to such a kind of question and I'm really happy to share everything what we have been choosing. Yeah.

[C]

Thank you for sharing our voice to the people around the world. Thank you very much.

[B]

To be honest, at the very first question I was little bit of scaredy nervous because this is my very first time for speaking out to the media. This is my very first time. I haven't made it in any interview or in any podcast before it. And every time I denied it when they trying to request to me. So when I try to speak it out, everything within these two years, what I have been chosen for at first feel like anxiety and then I feel like getting excited and for me it's a good thing because now I feel like I'm motivated again. When we have been talking about what we have been through and what we gonna be doing in the future and what we have to be set for our mindset and that made me Feel motivated a lot. Yeah.

[C]

At first this is very challenging for me to speak in English to tell our story within these five years to resisting the billiard free government and stay involved in the, in the revolution. But I, I think I have to try to speak our voice and I have to tell. I have the duty to tell our story, to share the people, to share the other people. The more, the more people know if the more people know our story. I think there may be. It's okay to get little help for our citizen, for people, for our people is very essential. I want to say just one word. Please have to save Myanmar.

[B]

What I want to say is our country is still not normalizing and even though they showed up in the media like everything is normal, that's not normal. We are still protesting and we are still against the military copy and we were never scared of them. So please, everyone please stay entrusted to Myanmar country and if there is something unfold when you see this, please take it out immediately. That's what I want to say.

[A]

What a great conversation that was. You know, every so often, listeners share with me how deeply they've connected with a guest they heard on our podcast. Sometimes they've shared being so profoundly touched by what they've heard, they tell me they just wanted to reach out and hug the speaker when the episode ended. Hearing this kind of feedback, it's always real motivation for me and for our whole team because it shows that even in this virtual space, we've been able to foster true heart to heart connection with this global community of listeners. Indeed, many of our guests have made extraordinary personal sacrifices in their efforts to create a better future for their society and continue to do so every day, despite the many challenges they face. And so if you've been touched in this way yourself from hearing a past episode, you might consider supporting the work of one of our guests directly. Such contributions not only provide material help, they also send a powerful message of solidarity and of shared humanity. To get involved, send us a message with your intention. Of course, you can always make a general donation@insight Myanmar.org donation.

[C]

Yeah,

[B]

Sa.