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- [00:15]
A
At its core, Insight Myanmar is about connection. We strive to bridge divides and foster understanding by sharing the stories of those living through extraordinary times. Connection fuels empathy, and empathy inspires action. So whether it's through tales of spirituality, reflections on cultural heritage, or accounts of people's struggles against oppression and their aspirations for a better future, we aim to forge connections towards a shared humanity that transcends borders. Let's start to build on that connection with the interview that follows.
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B
Sam.
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C
Sa. Today I have the pleasure of welcoming a to the show. She is about to graduate from Parmi University with a degree in philosophy, politics and Economics. Alongside her study, she has been advocating for gender inclusivity in education and has conducted research on Myanmar Civil Disobedience Movement, the cdm with that introduction, thank you very much a for joining our podcast.
- [02:24]
B
Yes, thank you very much for having having me here. I'm really excited to be here. So I'm a young young leader or young person from Yanmar who has spent last few years navigating university community work and then of course a rapidly changing political landscape. So my interest lines in of course my major philosophy, politics and economic but what's interesting sits when I joined Pari when I first joined Parami within my two years of my associate degree I decided to be a study st cents and data science student. But what grew up in my passions and my background has and also studying some of the social science courses at Par Talk taught me that I'm not a very data sub and I'm more like a social science person. So I changed my major at my doctor during my third years and I'll be now I'm about to be graduate from the PBE major so my interest lines in education, youth empowerment, especially gender equality, understanding how people responds to extraordinary challenges. So I grew up in a very small town in the middle central regions of Palmer so I came from the Enya communities of Myanmar and and I've I I have graduated or not graduated so I finished my matriculation exam before the just before the 2019 COVID 19 pandemic and I when I'm expecting to join the universities of Yangon which is my dream since my since I was in my 15 years old but unfortunately the military groups happen and I didn't get a chance to join the university in Myanmar. So after know a few years of wondering what what do I have to do? What should I do and I found out Parami and then I joined Parami which is an online university and that was a very transformative experience for me Because I, I have never thought of to be an online university student. And what's more tricky about being an online university or being a PAR university student?
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C
It's.
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B
I belong to the PA ethnic group, so let's say the majorities of Myanmar. Even though I belong to the majorities of Myanmar in my, you know, daily life, I just, I have never met, I have never or I rarely met people from other ethnic groups. But when I joined par, I met a lots of students and friends from other ethnic groups. And so that makes me feel like from be being the ethnic majority and becomes a minority in the classroom. And that's also what shapes my interest in civic educations and the inclusive education as well.
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C
Yeah, you mentioned like the degree was entirely taught online. Right. And for me I, I grew up in a different generation, so online learning wasn't a thing for me. But as you also mentioned that this pandemic and cool experience tell me that online learning is necessary and if we do not have that we would miss out so many opportunities. But for me I also see the limitation that come along with online learning as well. But I guess for the younger generation like yourself, you may be more tech savvy and more comfortable navigating online spaces. So would you like to share what that learning experience like online entirely online look like? And I'm also asking this question because you are also passionate about closing education gap between urban and rural area. So what role do you think online learning could play in that?
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B
Yes, the benefits of online learning, I should say I have been sings of those of those benefits. Not just, not just starting from the power university, but even before the parameter. So during the COVID 19 pandemic, because you know one. So that the pattern, the traditional patterns of the, of the education system, of the or the life cycle of most of the students, students from Myanmar is like when you finish your matriculation exam, you will join some English learning classes or business commodity from your hometown and then you will join, you will join the university. You know, that's the, that's the pattern. Most of most of my friends and most of the people in my community, like seniors does that because you know when you finish the matriculation you just join the classes, you just find some those classes from your hometown happily with your friends. So that was, that's. That is what I expected my younger life to be. But unexpectedly the COVID 19 happened and everything was locked up and I didn't get a chance to go out. But I, I would say that's the turning points of Me because for students living through uncertainty, I think online learning and online education becomes a lifeline rather than simply an alternatives. So for me I was very fortunate enough to found out online classes that I online class that I could improve my English skills during the COVID 19 pandemic. And since then I have found off my passions in civic education and community bonari work. So within the ne, with the network that I gained from my online class, I joined some volunteering jobs, I joined workshops, some graduate youth forance, things like that. During that time that was very, that was very trendy among youth and ss. As someone who came from a very traditional background because you know, in my hometown I, I was only a few. I was only one of the few, you know, student who joined those kind of online learning. And even among my student, among my friends, my friends were like what are you doing in front of the laptop all day? What's the, what's the, you know, purpose of doing that? I I didn't see any progress or they don't believe in those kind of things. So I was the know, black sheep amand and however I, I would say that that's the life changing opportunity for me. And since then I exper. I have experienced that how online learning, you know, valuable for someone who's, who is far away from the big city like Yangon because you know, we don't have any, we don't have that much opportunity in my back in my hometown. So that was, that was the story before they, before the military coups and after the military coups online learning state becomes a part of my life. And since then it's been already, you know, almost seven years for me since I immersed myself in, in laptops and those kind of web pages and all digital tools. Since, since then it becomes a part of my life and I just made a small, you know, a small living. Living allowance through it and I joined the university. So for me one of the biggest lesson online learning taught me is self displaying. And it, it is. I would say online learning is what makes today it's me. So I think it's transformed. It transformed all of the perspective that I have. It gave me numerous opportunities that I have that my younger self would have never imagined.
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C
Great. It's interesting you talk about online learning as something completely necessary. It's become a lifeline that you mentioned and it's also a turning point for you and I think my experience during pandemic, I think I share the similar situation at one moment in that period I think online learning and then Virtual attending virtual meetings also shaped somehow to the work that I am doing today. I think we have a similar experience through online learning. And earlier you have mentioned that you belong to Burma ethnic right? Growing up and Burmar is the ethnic which is the majority, which is the majority in Myanmar. But when you enter Parmi University, Burma ethnics are no longer the majority group in the classroom. And most of your classmates are from like ethnic nationalities that have their own languages, their own histories and their very own way of viewing Myanmar as a country. And to me I see this experience is beyond the cultural experience. It is almost like a political education in itself. And you've mentioned that that experience of learning with diverse ethnic nationalities, which didn't happen before, shaped your inspiration in civic education. So yeah, I am curious to know what did that experiences of like studying with diverse ethnic nationalities look like for you? Were there any moments that like surprise you or challenge your assumption or make you see Myanmar like itself differently? Or did this study experience with like various ethnic nationality change the way you understand your own identity? Like what it means to be Burma and how you understand Myanmar as a country? Yeah.
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B
In answering that question, I would like to divide it into two parts which is the part of being a majority. The things is I didn't even aware of the fact that I was one of the majority. You know, even though according to the joke geography that we learned by heart at the business education, I know that they are, you know, they're different nationality and they are, you know, documented 1, 3, 5 ethnic groups in Myanmar and there might be a few more undocumented as well. Even though I have, I have the knowledge about it, I have never understood the depth between or the tab. The depth among that knowledge because I belong to the majority groups and I live in a town that was full of majority people and a few, only just a few amounts of people with a minority. And they, they just become used to being the, you know, minority and they don't even seem like minority anymore. So I grew up being, I grew up in that kind of community and I don't even know what kinds of major, you know, being a majority meant meant for. So even though, you know, you know, when I realized and when I becomes a part of the par me and when I understand about the diversities and inclusions and those kind of majority minority fragmentations, I started to, I only, only after that I started to aware that oh, I was being a majority, I was getting those kind of privileges, but I don't even know those privileges are having, having in My having in my daily life. So that's. That's. That's gonna be one. You know, the, the first. How can I say the first. The first beginnings of the understanding. And after that when I joined the Parami, I becomes one of the minority. And that was quite fun funny because I joined a nation a Youth Challenge in 2023 and that was the debate tournament and that was organized in Mendeley and that was not the Param University was not the organizer but the. Some organization that was affiliated with the Parami and some students representing univers representing the university. And we joined the accommodation. The tournament was very tough because we. We met a lot of ethnic. Ethnic diversity in there. Like 80% of the. 80% of the participants come from the different ethnic groups and only four of them. And then like 30. Over 30 students, 30 young leader who participated in that tournament. Only four of us from Parami majority Burma. And all of them are from different ethnic groups. And when they communicate with each other, they talk with.
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C
They.
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B
They communicate with ethnic languages. You know, when I met with some Gachen people, they speaking. They speak in Kachin, they speak in Kachian language and they greet each other in different languages. And when we on the cultural night, they represent their culture. And I was like, oh my God. There's nothing one wandering on. There's nothing, you know, surprising things about our culture. There's nothing to showcase because Burma is the major majority identity and this is what influenced to other people. So my longi or my or those kind of clo. You know, the clothes, the costume that we wear or that's the language that we speak were not nothing extraordinary. There was. There was something. Something very common and people don't take it very, you know. Wow, that's nice. Wow, that's interesting. You know, they don't, they don't even take care of them but you know one other ethnic groups speak to us each other or what other ethnic group present about their national identity or. But my people were like wow, that's interesting. Wow, their language is beautiful. And that's. That was the exact moment when I fed myself that oh, that might be. That might be what is meant to be a minority. Yeah, that's what I learned from that experience.
- [15:56]
C
Right. It's an interesting, it's an interesting take. Like you were saying beings belong to Burmar. And then since people are already familiar with the tradition, the language, you felt like there is nothing to showcase. Nothing coming out from Burmar. I think it's become not extraordinary. But you see like beings belong to ethnic nationalities has something more to offer. So. So I believe this kind of insight and understanding is not something that you would learn from books, right? You wouldn't learn just by reading theories or lots of literature review in the classroom. So looking back now, what do you think that experience give you that you couldn't have learned from a textbook? Especially because you are a student of philosophy, politics and. And economics. And to take it further now, how do you think this kind of, you know, cross. Cross ethnic understanding among young people like yourself is something Myanmar futures need to build on?
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B
Talking about PPE that the major that I study in Paramount University mainly take it as a liberal arts which is an interdisciplinary major that we studies. And I. I would say that it gave me a language to the war beyond headline and social media debates and you know, the war beyond norms as well. I think politics and philosophy and political philosophy tell us who has power and economics showed us how resources are just review how the world is running philosophy ask whether actually that is, you know, the true or whether actually which perspective is better or those kind of things. So from my educations at parv, from my learning experience as a PBE student, it made me realize how important social science majors for to build the wall because you know, now today it was all about data, text, AI and you know, there was the. They were the popular. They were the popular major and that's exactly what it should be. They should be the popular one. But at the same time I think we shouldn't be forgetting about the social science and humanity major. I because that is what will make the war balance. If we, if we, you know, just come. If we just build the wall with all the tax and the people were good at AI. I think there were the humanity or the moral or ethnic ETH. Ethics. The moral ethics and morality gonna be ruined or it will be somehow imbalanced. So I think that those kind of social science and humanity major are the value of disciplines and studies that don't make the war more balanced, especially in a very advanced war. Also as a Myanmar students, I think that this studies is. It's somehow something that makes me realize that make me to better have a better comprehending about what's happening in Myanmar. Because you know, many issues in Myanmar are not just purely politic or purely economic or ethic. It were all the three at the same times. And my, my current studies helped me to break down into a few small, smaller things and make me realize and give me a better, you know, comprehending of what's happening
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C
right and since we are still on this like education and learning topic, I want to bring up like one thing I came across that Parmi University has a distinct mode of like service learning where students don't just study theory but actively engage with like real organizations and community challenges. I would like to like hear from you what, what does that you know experience personally look like for you and how your like classroom and hands on experience in PARMI shape the way you think about like social changes and to you know navigate things in life. Especially like Myanmar is in a conflict situation. And then I, I'm wondering what this experience has you know like taught you.
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B
I think what Community engagement, not just service learning. The motto or the, the model of our universities is inspire leaderships and compassionate service. So that's why service learning is a part of the requirement for graduation at PAR universities. And and I would say most of the students in our param universities are very brilliant and all of that, all of them are initiating their own community engagement in their own understandings and in their own community. So they are kind of little benefit. They are kind of building something for their own community in a you know, in an impactful and efficient way. So from that experience experience and from my personal own community engagement experience I it, it taught me to be more aware of my own assumption because you know when I when, when someone studies something when they, when they assume themselves that they know something they used to, they used to make some assumption upon a specific matters and but community engagement taught, taught me to be more aware of the know, more aware of the own assumptions and you know, have a how can I say well balanced and more awareness viewpoint on viewing the social issues. So in terms of doing the service learnings and the community engagement set, Parami I think they are very diverse because you know I, I did the environment. I once I did my service learning and the environmental environmental initiative environmental oriented organization and I learned about the environmental sustainability. I learned about how research about the environmental environmental things are going on. But my community project was mainly about the education and gender equality. So the service learning experience, the community engagement experience was very diverse and I really appreciate to learn different communities and also from some of the causes that talk that you know that makes, that made us to learn about the CSC model how community, you know, how how young students or how others, how others meter out at her from different, from different backgrounds should you know, should do should behave in helping the community and how we can, you know, cultivate the community empowerment by you know studying by initiating with the resources that the community itself have. So I, I would say from that service learning experience, I learned that the role of the student isn't to save the community and is to learn with them. And the real impact require, you know, real efforts and community building process, not just, you know, the project that we propose and that we get offended for.
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C
Right. I think I find it rather beautiful to hear from you that the role of the students, young students, is not to save the community, but to work with them and to learn with them and to learn from them. I think this is such a, you know, meaningful and important insight. And so hearing you have the kind of experience and insight is this experience and then learning social sciences, knowing that humanity is needed. Is this the main motivation for you to become a community advocate for gender inclusivity in education?
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B
The main reason that I've been working on or that I'm passionate about gender issue, it's mainly because of my community. I learned, I. So I learned about. I learned the inspiration from my community. I would say I grew up in a very great family. My father is. My father is now middle patriarchy. He was very flexible. He support women, I would say. So I didn't have much experience with how it's meant, how they meant to, you know, experience patriarchy, but I learned patriarchy from my mom because my mom and my grandmother think that men's very glorified. They got, they got their own powers and because, you know, when I do the house, house chores, my mom was like, oh, you, you have to watch your father clothes and s. Separately because he is a man and he has, you know, he is a man. So that is what. What we should do. And my mom always call up our. My dad to have it. Have the meal and before he started, before he started picking the spawn or people, he started eating by himself. We are not, you know, we're not eating because we have to wait for him because. But even though I grew up in that kinds of. In the kinds of, you know, family belonging, I didn't feel any kinds of inferior, inferiority for being a woman because I think that would be because of my father. My father had some kind of feminine. Feminine masculinity. So he is a very feminine person and I really appreciate my father for that. But back, back in my community, I have ex. I have winnets about much more situation than that. One of my, one of my relatives, I've experienced domestic violence for so long, for more than 20 years. And my. The Carson that I have, she was very afraid of her father. And even at the same time, she's very fond of her father's and respect her, respect him. But the thing is, her father committed domestic violence to her mom, and her mom was not in a very great, very good health. And eventually they lost them. They lost her mother, they lost her, they lost the mother. So, yeah, that was just a few example. But in the community, that was beyond. That was beyond my witness or that was beyond my awareness that my. There are most of the family which experience those kind of gender imbalance within a household and patriarchy within a household and even worst standard, you know, when. When in. In this 21st century, the LGBTQ plus and the different sexual orientation becomes a part of the daily life and people starting to aware of their. What is that orientation is. And that is what take us people to, you know, come out about their ancestry orientation, aware of their feelings and what they. What they want to be and how. How kind of person they want to cultivate their life themselves. But in some traditional and conservative family, family backgrounds and family situation, those kind of things are still restricted. And I have seen many people and many young, you know, young person, young people who have sacrificed their life or who have suicided by themselves because of their family pressures. And even in, you know, movies, films and the entertainment industry, with the whole entertainment industry, it's even more those LGBTQ plus and especially transgenders, as a monkey and as someone who is, you know, very inhumane in. Very in. They describe those people in a very inhumane ways. And I started to be aware of those kind of things by studying separately from my seminar causes and from some of the identity causes. And I starting to get the. And I'm standing to aware of the what's happening around me. And it gave me an inspiration to start working on general advocacy. So it was not just about, you know, women empowerment. It was also. It was mainly about the project that I've been working on and the advocate that I have been working through was mainly about the patriarchy household and the zena equality for all of the different sexual orientation.
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C
Right? It is very painful to learn that the domestic violence is normalized, still normalized in many places in Myanmar. And you had to, you know, experience it. But this experience also shape you to become a gender to do gender advocacy. And earlier you've mentioned that you are doing gender advocacy, gender equality, and it is not only about women empowerment. So for the listeners, would you unpack these two, you know, terminology that you just mentioned? How what's the differences you see that, that you see in terms of the technical understanding of these languages.
- [29:22]
B
Yes. So, so the thing is I, I didn't, I, you know, it didn't mean that I don't like a woman empowerment. But you know, when, when we talk about I'm a woman and I do, I, I strive for the gender equality. I, I, I, my interest is the gender equality and people will oh she might, she must be a feminist or oh, she must be doing for woman apartment Because I'm a woman and that means women support women said, you know, that kind of the, that people used to assume that people used to assume that you know, when I do gender equality or gender issue have an interest in that people will be like okay, mainly about the woman empowerments and but, but the things is I, I think that when we talk about gender equality that is not just about the case of women that are also about the different sexual orientations. And that's why I try, that's why my project, project time now it's mainly focused on understanding our own sexual orientations and gender or you assumption and then working and then on you know, balancing out in our upcoming, you know, upcoming stages of life. That's why I started with that, I started with that because I believe that when we talk about gender issue and gender equality it is not just about the woman, it also about the different kinds of gender that people consider themselves for. So I, I think that's, I think that should explain here.
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C
Um, yeah, yeah, right, right. You also mentioned like interesting fact that if I understood correctly you somehow see feminist is more about the women's empowerment. You know, women's do women's but from what I understood, but correct me if I'm wrong, you don't see like being a feminist is working toward gender equality. So with that understanding I am interested to know how do you understand your feminism like personally.
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B
Oh yeah, but so the you know, the assumptions of feminism, it's, it doesn't mean that feminism doesn't come for the gender equality. I mean that it's uh, it's also a part of the Internet equality process. It also a part of the denial equality advocacy. I, I just, I just would like to mention that feminism and the feminist ideology or a part of the movement, so a part of the social political movement and these ideology dedicated to achieving socials and you know, equality of the different sexes. And I think feminism is also a part of the difference in our sexual orientation as well. But I want to, you know, how can I say I want to mention it in a very easier way to understand for people who are quite unfamiliar to the process. For example, you know, if I, if I talk to my mom that I say oh, I'm interested in feminism and she will be like, is that woman supporting woman? Or she might not even, she might not even have a huge understandings on that because she is kind of came from a different backgrounds and you know, these date terminologies are quite complicating for her. So when I mention, when I explained to those kind of, those kind of person what I'm family about the context, sex, I I want to make it easier for them to understand that it is up the gender equality. So feminism sounds, you know, it's very familiar to the youth and other people who are working in that kinds of process and maybe some people for. But for older elderly people that would be a kind of quite complicated. So I just want to broken it down into an easier process of understanding. But that doesn't mean that feminism is a hot middle isn't include about, you know, achieving equality of different sexes as well.
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C
Yeah, I need to agree that hearing gender equality, you know, sounds easier to like digest for ordinary people. And I think coincidentally I also like most of the time do not, do not refer myself as a feminist because there are many times that I came across some of the feminists and then the way they been advocating the concept, it's more about like women empowerment and women needs to have more rights and etc. And I, because I came across that experiences, I feel uncomfortable to refer myself as a feminist because for me feminism, you know, like the definition of course somehow different where you grow up, whether you are talking about like a brown woman being a feminist or a white woman talking about feminism. Right. And then there are also intersectionality. For me, feminism is talking about gender equality. So for me, when I need to like pitch something, I usually refer myself. No, I am working towards more of a gender equality. So I think here we are finding common ground at least between us. So since we are on this topic of, you know, gender equality, I want to like go back to one of your like project project. So what I understood it is a youth led sexual, sexuality and gender education initiative for underserved secondary students in Myanmar. Right. So before we like dive into the work itself, can you help us understand the landscape? Like who are these students? What communities are they from and what does their day to day access to education actually look like?
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B
Yeah. So after very complicated political situations, people and students, especially secondary students from Myanmar and especially Anya region, they face a huge education gaps and one of the most harmful Education gap they got is the not assessing to sex education. I I think Even back in 20, 20, 19 or 2018, having sex education as one of the curriculum of you know, official education has also been a very debated topic. If I if I may, if I remember correctly, you know, because sex education and in this kind of conservative communities that was a very difficult topic that we discussed. You know, even the sex education, the name itself is very and. And comfortable for elderly people who have made a huge religious, you know, ideology. But. But after the 21st century and after the 2021 and 2022, the education, the information access become easily easier than before. And students and secondary students from you know, rural and south urban area have easier access to phones, Internet and those kind of harmful digital, you know, digital presence, digital media present in that kinds of topic. And you know, the things is young people and the nature of them is they have curiosity toward confined things. And when people will be like oh my God, this is not appropriate, this is not appropriate. You shouldn't be. And you know, you know, those young, you. You stay young, you are not allowed to learn or you're not allowed to know these things. So you are restricted. So that makes the young people nature to be. To become more curious of the things and when they got to know those kind of harmful and those kind of helpful informations online without any restrictions or without any you know, procedures or to you know, to learn step by step so that. That becomes more harmful than. Than we expected. So restrictions is not always the solution. So that's. That's just a few story because back in my back in my busy education I once had from my teacher that she told me that the teacher told me that you are not allowed to touch or you shouldn't. You shouldn't touch a blind things skin to skin when you are in your menstruation, menstrual cycle period. Because once you touch you you can get pregnant. Believe it or not, that's. That's the word that come out of the teacher, the educator. I was, I. I didn't understand back then, but I was so afraid of the. Afraid of that things and I was like oh my God, that's very scary. And I become extra cautious in my period dates and it becomes you know, very, very funny. But when I when I think of it, that was very funny and I was becomes like a weird person on these day. But imagine if people are keep on getting those kind of mixed information from educator whom they believe to be an incredible person to you know, look at for that's a very harmful and especially after the 2021 military coups that those kind of curriculum becomes more restricted and
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C
and
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B
the future is very unsettling. That's why we started working on that project. And so that the. The landscape of the project. We started with secondary students who are from the monastic background. So monastic education students from. From McQuay and we started with 140 or 30. 30, I'm not very sure, but around 100. 100 students who join our workshops and learn about the comprehensive sexual. Comprehensive sexuality education. Comprehensive sex education from a professional trainer and then working on towards some kind of gender, you know, gender orientations and feelings during their pop. During their puberty. Yeah.
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C
Right. So were you saying that sex education or like sexuality and gender education is still not part of the formal school curriculum in Myanmar?
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B
Yeah, totally. And. And as far as I had from student because you know, when. When we. When we initiate the project dine out back in MCUI and 1 and I I. We just connected to the monastery education school and then we want to make it to more. More impactful and have more students. So I went to my home, I went to my school that I joined for nine years. So that was the. The education under the military. This teacher. The teacher were very you know, I thought that. I thought the teacher gonna be very flexible and they also have a. I know they also have. I also have a good relationship with them. So I, I thought though teacher where somehow will call me to you know do those kind of workshop together with their students and send a few of their students to join the workshop. So I talk with them and. But the hit the hat mine the head mistress. The principal was very, very, very furious about the things and it would be like the government didn't like it that that is not the thing the government allowed us to do. So if something happened and if something bad happened that might ruin my career and you know that things get very heated. So I We just back it up and we just greeted the teachers and we didn't keep on go. We didn't keep the conversation to. To go in and we just you know initiate that. We just started the project without any students. Without any, you know student from the government education. We just. We just went with students from monastery monastery education. So yeah, that answer is the sexuality Education center education son or the officially part of the education systems in Myanmar currently.
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C
So although you have built a good relationship with your teachers, you know, the. The headmistress and then. But they are still very resistant when it comes to this topic of like sex education. They are furious right Even to hear about the topic. And then they even phrase that the government would not like it. What do you think are the biggest concern for them to keep this topic out of the curriculum. But apparently this topic is really important. From what I from, from listening after listening what you said,
- [42:20]
B
I I, I would say that that's quite difficult. I'm in a very difficult position to assume whether I know what makes them diff. What makes them very, you know, restricted about the topic. But but the main things one of gonna be the government on. The government didn't allow the topic because before, before the 2021 military coups we had the some curriculum official curriculum. So back in my school day I have to read a blue blue and very big book that included some information about the sexual education. That's not entirely the, you know, science education, but a few, a few things that we need to aware of. For example last like the you know, contraceptions and condom and those kind of, you know, those kind of things. So I, I we learn it. We learn some some a part of the science education from a book. And I think that subject is called. I don't know how to. How to translate it in English, but for, for life skate. You know, let's say the live skate. So in our liveskay classes this class session we learned from those books. So it was main. So in that session the teacher just distributed the book and told us to read it. And then the class session ended. There was no any further explanations or clarification from the teacher. But somehow we somehow receive a part of the sex education in my back. In my back in my school day. But after the 21 military coup I had from a teacher that they kind of revoked hope that those book and those book were not a part of the school schedule or the curriculum anymore.
- [44:06]
C
Well, this is very sad to hear. We are stay at this stage and I want to bring go back one point. Although the the government schools do not want to cooperate with you for Project Bizai's house. It seems that the monastic school are very progressive and you know, willing to work with you. And this is coming to me as a surprise. I assume that monastic education monastic school might have more of the conservative thoughts and they might somehow feel a bit resistant when it comes to, you know, topics that are new in. Not new to, you know, our. The Myanmar context. Why do you think that it is much easier to work with the monastic school? Is it because of the people that you work with are already exposed to this topic? And understand the importance of you know teaching it to the younger generation or the. Before you approach the these monastic school that you work in Maguy they already established this curriculum them somehow.
- [45:22]
B
Yeah they don't have. They don't have any original plans or you know existing curriculums upon the topic. But what makes me easier to communicate with gonna be one of the reason is the person that I work with. So my aunt had a very. My aunt fail a very good relationship with the monastery and the. The monk. So the responsible monk from the monastery educ Monastery education has a very you know good relationship with my. And she told. She told for me and the monk was like that was not a good place for monk to stand it. But he state he still believe that that's going to be a good insight for students for you know, for those. Some even include a monk and nuns. So that might be a good topic for them to learn. So they welcome me.
- [46:17]
A
So.
- [46:18]
B
So what. So I I think that there might be two reasons. One reason is the person that I work for is great and they have a good relationship. So it makes me easier to communicate and it may be easier to get access to those students. And then the second reason is the monk also is very kind and he also wants his students to be the best. It is one of the famous monastery education schools in my hometown the McWay. So yeah that might be the reason.
- [46:46]
C
Yeah I'm glad to hear that Buddhist monk and then this Buddhist you know establishment are very open to the modern or like a progressive idea and then see the importance and taking it from there. I think that's a. That's a really good news. So does this Pitang Town project is still ongoing. Are you still working?
- [47:10]
B
So after. So the. The project Pita now is A1C unifying GR. So we we got vented from the US embassy US embassy and after. After that yes after the initiative we want to the YCL11 anniversary so we showcase our project and it seems like the responsible person from the US Embassy was very impressed with the ideas and the impact we have made because you know there has no match project in McQueen. I would say that that is. That's going to be the first first or that's going to be the pioneer initiatives. That was the pioneer community engagement initiatives in my hometown in McQuay. So the. The wise. The. The. I think the chief missions or the chief officer of Missions and power relations Officer. They yes they really like the project and we received the exclusive follow up funding to to keep on working on the project. So after two months of finishing the project from McQueen. We keep on doing that project in Mandalay. The same. The same. The same.
- [48:25]
C
Not.
- [48:25]
B
Not the same but the difference. A bit different curriculum but keep on. Keep on maintaining the same flow that we did in mcui and also that was with a few monastic student as monastery education student as well. This time we collaborated with a Paul monastery education from Mandalay. And we. A lot of secondary school students, I think around 80. 80 students from Pano who was joined with us. And if there have been a few outside young. Young leader and young students from Mendeley also joined with us because it was. It was take took place in Jefferson Centers of Jefferson Center Mendeley. So I was. That was quite great experience. We even have at therapy sessions and all of us are, you know, drawings and. And playing with paints and colors in the backyard of the Jefferson Centers. And that was quite fun experience. So that was the. That was the second sequence of the project now. And after that we also received some funding from my part from my university. So we received the civic engagement award from Paramount Universities and we received a standard. We received external fundings again. So now we are trying to digitalize the initiative. So we. We made a comic book. The teams that put an effort to do the storytelling. Because after the. After the workshop in Mandalay we did the essay mini essay commendation for students from the monastery of the Powno Ministry education. So a lot of students, I think around 20 or 20 students joined the essay accommodations and we select, you know, first, second and third. And we gave them a few honorary end for them. So we. We have the. Those story. We have those story from friends about the gender orientations and sexual orientation. So we already have a few stories and what we are thinking is to. To make the good use of the resources we already have. So when I. When I When we received the. When we received the funding from the university, we decided to change some of the stories into a story into a narrative and make a story out of it. So we create a. We collaborated with a local artist and we created a digital a comic book. And it is already finalized and we are about to distribute to a few. A few, you know education and institution online or you know, format or non formal education institution that we have connection that we have connected with. So yeah, that's the you know, further work of Pitina.
- [50:59]
C
Wow. I find it really impressive how this project is scaling up and then now. Now, you know, even going in a digitalized version and incorporating arts and I'm sure this gonna reach more audiences. I'M glad that that happened. So from hearing, you know, from what you have said, I. I can see that there are a group of people who are very up with this idea, who see a lot of values in it, try to support the project. But there are other type of group of people who still, who are still very resistant to this topic. Right. So. And I want to focus on the later group. So I'm interested to know for those people like, who never thought that sexuality and gender education matters, especially in a country like Myanmar, like we are going through overwhelmingly an urgent situation and then they think this is not the topic that deserves the priority. Maybe the argument would be conflict, displacement or survivor is the, is the focus that we need to think about. But from your perspective, what would be your argument to say that sexuality and gender education matters and then this work belong in the same conversation as Conflict, Displacement and survivor. And then from this podcast, what is one thing that you want them to understand?
- [52:42]
B
Yeah. So first the sex education and also the gender and sexuality education. So both of them are a phase that all of the youth have to gone through it. So we all went through puberty. We all went through some fates that we have someone to crush on. So starting from the fates of puberty and going being a teenager, we started to, we started to experience ourself. We started to learn about ourselves. So without any prior knowledge to those kind of changes in our body, in our mind and in our, you know, you know, consciousness con in our consideration, if we don't have any private knowledge, some of the informations and some of the misinformation, dis information can be harmful because you know, talking about the merations and you know, it. It somehow connected to the general equality back again because, you know, people think that when we buy some sanitary part in most of the stores in Myanmar, they pack it with a black, black, you know, black plastic because they didn't want others to see it. But that's not something that we have to be hideful. I know, right. So that we have to hide another thing that when someone's, it's, you know, when someone's, you know, stain they are mes meno stains on their trousers or skirts or people will be like make fun of it or people, you know, pretend to not know of the. This, those, those kind of things. So from not knowing or what our body changes are natural. And this is a phase that every, everyone has to go through. So from not knowing of these things, from not aware of these important facts, people becomes naturalized or people becomes assume that Those things are restricted and those things are not those things are inappropriate. And all the things that we should discuss in public public and that is somehow that started make woman into becomes an inferior inferior person just because of the menstrual cycle or just because of some certain hormonal changes and body changes that we have went through it. And that's what makes. That's what connected to the general equal inequality things as well. So from. And also when it comes to that awareness of our stuff so if we don't aware of who what kinds of an agenda that we have a crash on we didn't when we you know close ourselves into a thin wall or into a thin thin Cabot and we. We become trapped in our mind and that doesn't that will make us to. Not to block in a full potential that we have. So not understanding what kinds of person you are not understanding what kinds of body changes that you will experience that will. That will decide what kinds of light part that we will keep on going. So I would say that that is an important phase that everyone's gone through and that also important to be aware to know these things to build you know, a better version of ourself in you know, in when we grew up. So it is important I think it also linked to as I mentioned before, gender equalities and inequality things as well.
- [55:57]
C
Yeah. Thank you so much for pointing out the fundamentals of studying sexuality and and gender education. And I think this is a fascinating topic and I could go for hours. But let's move on to another topic because I really want the audience to, you know, know about this important work that you have done which is about your research on Myanmar civil disobedience movement cdm. This is also one of the topics that sits very close to my heart. For listeners who may not be familiar with this topic cdm. Could you briefly explain what the CDM is? Who participated when it emerged or what is represented as a form of resistance following the 2021 military coup?
- [56:50]
B
Yes. So my research mainly stands for the civil disobedient movement CDM movement of students. So since the 2021 military coups in Burma, the DHAMMADO has experienced strong opposition across multiple setup including the higher education and educations. And so the most significant and long standing forms of resistance is civil disobedient movement CTM and especially in higher education and students in which many students refuse to study under the authoritarian regimes. So the college of withdrawal happened and that withdrawal from state institutions started with, you know, some kind of their own motivations and assumptions and belief in.
- [57:32]
C
In.
- [57:32]
B
In a certain matter. So. But however, even though they have been four year or nearly five years since the military coups, the CDM movement are still ongoing and there are a lots of and numerous student who stay joined the CDM movement and decided not to studies under the military control institution. That's why I. That's why I wanted to studies about the CDM movements and what kind of studio movement of the students mainly. But that doesn't mean that you know the CDM movement or of the, you know, officer from different part of the military institution such as, you know, revenue department or you know, those kind of military official department that. But you know, but I still care for them. But the things is I'm a student and I'm more like close to the CDM student. So I decided to do a research upon did. Yeah, all right.
- [58:28]
C
So the CDM movement definitely bring one of the strongest force to destabilize the regime. And then you know, have. Have been successful in many ways. And I am trying to put myself in the shoes of someone who joined the CDM because like one day you have a government job, right? A salary and maybe even a family that is depending on you. And then in your case, since you are studying CDM of the students, you know, they have this studying platform and they have this aspiration after graduation how I am like going to pursue for a bachelor degree or going for a master degree. You know, for these youths are like full of like hopes and dream but they decided to walk away as a form of like protest. So when you are. When you were doing a research, did your research reveal anything about what drove that decision?
- [59:36]
B
Yes. So my research mainly is in mind the motivation and perception. So I did my research with the 12 higher education students from Burma who have participated in education as a disobedient movement. And I. So from that research I think it's conceptualized education both as the magnazines or authoritarians control and also a contested political space as well. So from interview and conversation with higher education students I my research mainly mainly suggests that you know, the student refuses to engage with a military control university was driven by moral responsibility, live experience of state violence, political awareness and mainly disbelief in the military rules. So I. I think you know, the. The primary goal of the study is to produce analytical conclusion rather than policy recommendation. So. So finding from this study, finding from my studies mainly illustrate how students how participant interpret their participation in CDM movement and how their education after the coupes was look like and what's their motivation. So I was not trying to measure participation rates or outcome. That was mainly about their lived experience and subjective meanings upon the participation in CDM movement.
- [60:56]
C
Right. This is very good insight to know. Is there any highlights that you want to, you know, like, talk about on this platform, like your research project, the process, maybe like a methodology or some other like, interesting findings that you, you discover?
- [61:16]
B
Oh, yes, I have an interesting finding that I discovered because, you know, I, the one thing very interesting, so very unique about the research is when I asked them, when I asked 12 participants of the interview with a question of what's your decision to join the military, to join the civil disobedience movement was in immediate or do you have, have, do you have, do you, you know, think sometime? Do you take some time to think? All of the answer, all 12 of the answer was they decided immediately. They don't hesitate for a moment. And that was quite, that was quite, you know, surprising for me as well, because I didn't expect that that fact. But all the students said that they decided immediately that was, that was maintained. And another thing is, another thing is, you know, one participants, that one participant said that, you know, joining the military control educations, it will be, it will be a part of the, you know, resisting the legitimacy of the military. And a few students claim that the CDM movement might not be a, you know, might not be a movement toward, you know, challenging the legitimacy of the military control institution. So even though I find a very, you know, uniform answer upon a certain question, and I also find a difference perspective of student on different, you know. Yeah. Different viewpoint as well.
- [62:46]
C
Well, this is a very impressive finding for me to, you know, to hear. And I am, yeah, I'm in awe. I don't even know how to respond when I was asking these questions, you know, in my head, I, I was wondering, did they make this decision? Is it because of like, peer pressure or they are like, feeling a moral breakdown or, you know, this an ideology. But I, I think I get the answer. And since you've done this research and then your interest in, you know, education, sex education, sexuality, gender equality, did your research research also like, reveal anything, anything specific about the role of like, women and gender minorities within the CDM group that you study?
- [63:40]
B
I, I would say that my research didn't cover that part because my question was mainly about the motivation to try and, you know, how they are, how, how they think of the legitimacy of the military control institution so how they assume their military control education. So I, I, I, I'm research Students cover that you know those kind of women's and gender gender differences in the you know gender difference of pattern. But but I would say that, but I would say that my I did you know all of the 12 participants to be quite balanced. So I I interview seven women and um, five men. So that was quite you know the answer were very diverse and even you know even to even for myself that was quite interesting because you know when I do the research I I, I did ask a few students from Parami and since we have a kind of quite similar background, I expect that the answer can be overlapped. But surprisingly the answers are not overlapped. Club all of them all of the students have a very and family and very different prospectics upon that questions and it all it makes me to enjoy a lot to you know to interpret that ideas and work on my work on my senior capstone. Yeah right.
- [65:12]
C
Yeah. So I want to you know like bring this topic a little bit um towards um how we understood like power. Um because, because you know when we think about political resistance we often imagine protests in the streets or like armed opposition. Right. But the CDM movement was something different in a way. Like I would say it wasn't loud or armed, but it was collective decision by ordinary people to simply stop participating in a system they no longer recognize as legitimate. And I think this is also coincide with the point that you mentioned earlier that disbelief in the military region. So from your perspective, your personal experience through this research, what does CDM tell about how Myanmar how people in Myanmar understand power and their relations to the state? Do you think that you see this dynamic from the research and from the movement?
- [66:22]
B
Oh yes. I I have asked a few questions regarding to the powers and legitimacy and and you know, different narratives or the different narratives and also using military, military using the education etc as the mechanisms of political regulation and political control as well. And from the research what I found out is the most of the students aware of the aware of the fact that military has been using control as a part of their propaganda as a part of the tools to reinforce the ideology that they want to construct. So that was one of the significant finding as well. Another things it how they perceive powers and how. So the, the first thing that I should mention is how students perceive our legitimacy. So how students perceive our legitimacy is politically and and free and fairly elected elected government or elected person elected personnel should should is it is some of the legitimate person to rule over. So when we talk about you know legitimacy or when we talk about you know some people that could uh, that could govern us. It should be someone who got uh, bullet, uh, who got, you know, who got elective with that support of the people, uh, from that country. So I think that is that somehow explain how they understand power as well. Another thing is they so as I mentioned stood as a students from. As a student who grew up in the traditional education systems and, and have understandings on the background of the military clubs. They also aware of the fact that education gonna be a tools for the military to enter the military. And they, you know, they, they. They also talk about academic freedom, narrative framing and how education becomes a side of political control and Prof. Organization.
- [68:14]
C
Right. And since we are on this topic, I think I remember you also have an interest in women peace and security, isn't it?
- [68:28]
B
Oh yeah, yes.
- [68:29]
C
Yeah. And you know, based on all the initiatives that you have been doing and then this research finding and insights, would you like to share your inspiration to be working in this thematic area or, or is there any reflection that you want to you know, make regarding women peace and security in Myanmar political context or in the CDM movement?
- [68:55]
B
Yes, so that's that question. Reminds me of the campaign of Myanmar like our, you know, our flag and the long G that we did in you know, as the part of the women empowerments and to appreciate the participations of women in that. In the political resistance movement. So not just for the CDM movement but also for the resistant movement of the military. I think the participations of women and the rules of women is fundamental
- [69:31]
C
because
- [69:32]
B
you know, without the supports of women or without the part. Without the supports of firstly without the supports of women, some of the resistant movement can be difficult because you know, women are also a part of the big, you know, huge uh, populations among Yama because you know, some of the women are moments moms. Some of the moms can have powers to influence the household.
- [69:56]
C
Right?
- [69:57]
B
Some. There are a lot of powerful moms and I have seen a lot of moms in my communities. And just a word of just with a wall of moms, everything just, you know, just done so those kind of things. So the rules of. So what I want to mainly you know, claims in here is the rules of women's and the participations of. Of movements not just for the CDN but also for the resistance movement is very fundamental. They are also a part of the bid in big initiatives and a part of the process. So in empowering the rules of women, I, I think we have to. It is not just about how women can do work, how women can contribute to the resistance. It also about how women have gone through different forms of violence, different forms of, you know, and different forms of, you know, harassment through the resistance movement. Because you know, in some certain region there are that some of the women's experience gender based violence and sexual violence just because of their, you know, just because of the sex that they belong to. So I think when we talk about the rules of women in political landscape, we also need to be aware of the things that they are. They are also the women are not just participating. The women are also being the victims of the resistance movement, the victims of the military rules as well.
- [71:23]
C
Right. And I think about this protest campaign where Myanmar women hang their sorongs in the streets, feminine clothing to define the coup is one of the coolest idea. And I think it's draw a lot of like domestic and international attentions and you know, people become like more aware about the resistance that the revolutionary work that we have been doing. Yeah. And I think now we cover like your research, your research. The. The interesting facts from the research and then the sexuality and education part. And I think now we are coming closer to end of the. Our conversation. And I wanted to end, you know, I. Our poet, our conversation somehow like personal. So you are someone like who actively contributes to like youth initiative and then the town project yet again is very impressive. The research projects and then has been taking, you know, interest in bringing social transformation. And you also mentioned that the learning experience in Parami was very transformative for you. And you are also a youth, you know, navigating your education, your research, your advocacy. Why Myanmar is like going through one of the most painful chapters in its history. So I want to ask you, what does social change mean to you? Not in an academic concept, but something personal.
- [73:04]
B
I. I would say it's an essential in the daily context and especially for some for a country like Africa us that have been, you know, going through a lot of unimaginative things beyond, you know, beyond a person can think of. You know, for me myself is an. In a very privileged situation. I have a place to safely live in. I have food to. I have, you know, I have food and I have things to work. But there are, there are many of the people from Myanmar who even have to, you know, live in of worst situations just to survive one day just to, you know, pass through morning. So what I would like to, you know, claim social. Social change as is is something that statistics and data can. Cannot describes because you know, I, I don't think the statistics and data might give a You know, given a you know, bigger pictures of how the initiate or you know, how the military schools have been going on. Oh oh my God. It's been five years. So the number five. How, how many people have died, how many people have lost their home. So they also are a part of the movement. But what those can describe is they cannot capture what it feels like to live through it. What is feels what is the real human stories of. Behind all of the movement or all of the things that were happening. Many families are navigating uncertainty on a daily basis and instability has become the normal part of of life. So social change personally for me is balancing out different part of the you know, academics and also perfection tools that we have been using and that we have been, you know, apply in our daily life. So um, and also for many young people from Yanmar, not just for the young people but also the. Even the older generations we have to gone through a lot of things things and the entire generations have to grow up faster than they should. Young people are balancing education, survival, displacement and family responsibilities simultaneously. And even elder purse, even elder person have they have responsibility even though they are. They are at the age that they should be retired. Also many people from Yamas are carrying two life as wants. The life they have to left they have to leave behind and the life they are trying to build right now. So I think social change is going to be personally for me it's going to be a part of the movement and by walking through it, we should be carrying something all by ourselves to make sure that we remember what's happenings and we don't forget what's what should. You know, what kinds of changes that can can. That we can make even within a small values of our community.
- [76:02]
C
Right. You've mentioned that the, you know, the social change is beyond the numbers and statistics because these data set cannot fully capture the multi layer experience and challenges that community, you know, experience. So in your own view as a young person, you know know. What social change would you like to see in Myanmar?
- [76:32]
B
One social change that I would the world want to see. It's about Myanmar. So it will mainly soldier change in Myanmar. And also from Myanmar I want to. I want to have a more, you know, better, better understandings of the peoples about what's happening. Because you know, global attention often move quickly. There are lots of the matter that people from a different country have to think of. They have their own life, they have their own survival. But at the same times it's been five years since Myanmar has gone through A lot of things and people living through crisis and they do not have the luxuries of moving on. That's their reality. That's the daily life of them. And I, I. What I want to see is not just speaking for people, but making sure that the, the wises of the people from Y are hurt and not to normalize suffering.
- [77:29]
C
Right. Thank you for that. And, and on this platform, through this conversation, I also want to offer you the space to speak directly to young people in Myanmar. Like who might be, you know, exhausted, scared or wondering whether any of their efforts matter. Right. Because for you, although you mentioned you are somehow privileged, you also experience a number of like a tremendous challenges, but you try to navigate around it, you try to pursue your education, try to complete it through online learning and then, you know, implementing this, you know, very impressive advocacy project project. So I also want to take, take, you know, inspiration from you. So through this, all of you, you know, living experiences, what do you want other youth, you know, to hear from you and, and to the rest of the world, like who may be, you know, like watching Myanmar from the distance. What do you want them to understand about Myanmar or about young people that their struggles or their inspiration. What, what do you want to, you know, speak?
- [78:45]
B
Yeah. So firstly, I'd say you, I'm. I have, I haven't done anything great. I, I didn't see myself. I just done small initiatives in the community. But, but with. Given the journey that I have was that I have walked through, I want to leave a message that my journey has taught me that uncertainty doesn't have to stop us from moving forward. Even though we have, you know, even though the country can move forward that personal, personally, we have to move forward to develop ourselves. So we may not already know what future looks like. But I, so what I mean, my move forward is here is to continue learning, to keep asking questions and to contribute in whatever ways we can. Because sometimes the meaningful change begins with something at simber at this kind of conversation. So that is one, one thing that I would like to leave as a message and another thing is as someone who believe in the powers of education and education oriented, I would say that education is much more than any a degree. A degree is not entirely the education. It is about learning how to think critically, engage with different perspectives and remain curious even in difficult times. So despite the challenges that facing our country today, I will continue to believe in the powers of education and I will continue to believe in the potentials of younger generations of us in creating meaningful change in our Country. And I hope this conversations and some experience of mine will leave a few, you know, understandings about, about Myanmar, not just as a news, not just as a story because, you know, behind every headline that you read off from a news, they are real people, families, students and community who are trying to navigate incredibly different circumstances. So I also want this conversation to be an inspiration to keep on, you know, learn, listens and stay informed even in a small but important way to understand what's happening in Myanmar and you know, how we understand, have. How people in Myanmar have navigate through challenges. So yeah, as a recent graduate of almost recent, my graduation coming soon, so also almost recent graduates of Harvard University. If you feel a bit lost and if you are someone who think that education is still important and you want to pursue a quality education, I, I kind of want to give you a, you know, good news that part of me gonna be a place that will help you to keep on learning, keep on growing and keep on hoping for a better future for ourselves. So despite this disruption and certainty and challenges, you might find a way to continue studies, organize and support one another. Imaging better future future for you, yourself, for yourself and also for your community. And if you, if you want to get a chance, I also, you know, recommend you to studies about parami and find a way to, you know. Yeah. If you want to. If you're passionate about different kind of online learning education, parami also a better place and a nice place for you to go and, and especially for someone who can afford to, you know, studies abroad or who stay stuck in Myanmar and online learning can also be a good option for you. Right.
- [82:30]
C
Thank you. A. Thank you very much for coming in today and give us your time, your research and your personal story and I am really rooting for your graduation, your further study and, and also your further like endeavor in life.
- [82:48]
B
Yes. Thank you so much, Omar. Yeah, that was very pleasure to meet you here.
- [83:09]
A
Thank you for listening to this episode in full. You know, by this point we've aired a few hundred episodes with so many more scheduled and every one of them is available at no charge. We're committed to keeping our platform freely accessible into the foreseeable future so that anyone, anywhere can learn more about the situation in Myanmar. At a time when keeping global awareness on the country is so critical, it's more important than ever to share these stories widely. So to ensure, to ensure that we can continue offering these programs without any barriers or paywalls in the way, we've launched a membership program. Becoming a member not only helps us sustain this platform and bring you more vital interviews. It also comes with benefits like advanced releases, behind the scenes content, exclusive discounts at our shop, and more. So if you'd like to support us and gain access to these perks in the process, visit Insight Myanmar to learn more. Thank you for being a part of this mission. Of course, we also welcome contributions of any kind as well. And please consider visiting insight myanmar.org donation to learn more about the ways that you can contribute.
- [84:27]
B
Sam, we got.