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- [00:18]
A
Before we get into the upcoming interview with our featured guest, I'd like to briefly share some background about our platform. We launched the podcast in 2019 and and in the years prior to the military coup, much of our content centered around stories related to Vipassana meditation, Burmese Buddhism and other spiritual tales. However, following the military coup in 2021, we couldn't in good conscience stay strictly in this lane while so much of the country was under siege. Therefore, while we continue to honor and share stories of meditation and the spiritual journey, our platform has also expanded to amplify the voices of those impacted by the crisis, shedding light on the resilience, resistance, and determination of the Burmese people in their struggle for democracy and human rights. Thank you for deciding to join this journey with us. And now let's hear what today's guest has in store for.
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B
A deep. Foreign.
- [02:25]
A
This episode of Insight Myanmar Podcast. We're going to be speaking to a and I'm really looking forward to this conversation because regular listeners know that we for many years we have had dozens of conversations talking about meditation and Buddhism and Dharma and and and all aspects of Buddhist and meditation related subjects. And in many cases we're speaking to foreign monastics or pract or teachers who've whose lives have been touched in Burma and for obvious reasons, language and security and and and other issues. It's been harder. We we have spoken to Burmese voices that have appeared and talked about their experience locally with the practice, but it's been less common. It's something that we certainly hope to rectify much more going forward and that is starting with this conversation here. So we are going to be checking in with a who is a longtime listener of our pod, especially interested and engaged in the number of different Buddhist subjects that we cover and has graciously agreed to come on and to speak about her Buddhist practice family, her family's Buddhist practice and and and kind of complement the storytelling we've been doing with much more of a local view. So I'm I'm really looking forward to this conversation that follows and a I'd like to warmly welcome you and thank you again for coming on and having this conversation.
- [03:53]
B
It is my pleasure to be on this Inside Myanmar podcast. So I grew up in like very like traditional Buddhist like family and so my grandmother like practiced the Vipassana meditation in the Mahasi tradition. So you know as a child that you you look at your grandma and she is like meditating. So that kind of like curiosity that is like and, and when I was young I I was Quite fortunate to to able to like read like the very basics like the map. So basically it's like commentary and commentary and the Pali text. So. So I, I landed in the kind of, you know, that is how I like became like more interested in like Buddhism. That is like my first intro like to the Terra Waterpr and later. And that changed a lot because you know, when you grow up and you read, read a lot and you kind of become like aware that some of the text that I read like can be, you know, it seems like a deliberate deliberately like alter change. So I began to question everything. So that is the time that is like very difficult for me because like you are questioning things and that is not really like how to say it is well received in the like Buddhist like, you know, Bambi Buddhist society, like, but like later I try to understand that what is the difference between the original and what are, you know, and the later like development like the. So that's how that make me, me feel like more open and because of like when like as a young child, you know, when someone tell me about a story, like we got the whole story itself so we don't really know what is the original and what is the, you know, later like the adding apps thing. So yes, from the. It is not easy, not easy because like you are questioning a lot of things. But I think that is necessary to become a, you know, more like secular and more open way of practicing instead of like believing everything you've been taught.
- [06:33]
A
You mentioned some of the pressures to go along with a certain kind of teaching or tradition because if you've listened to this platform for any degree of time, I think there have been any number of episodes with any number of lineages that have explored the dynamic of a, a spiritual submission to a teacher or teaching or technique which can be very powerful and very important in, in letting go of your ego. And then on the other side of that, when one gives up too much of that and suspends critical thought, then suddenly finding yourself in, in an echo chamber or not able to critically think through things yourself with the kind of literature practice in front of you. And this certainly isn't limited to the traditions that have spread outside Burma into Western communities, which we spent a lot of time talking about on this platform. There could certainly be this kind of group think and pressure and hierarchy that can exist and we could say patriarchy as well that can exist within Burmese Buddhist context also.
- [07:37]
B
So in like, you know, in, in Burma, like, we have a like very like deep like belief that the commentary are Regarded as a Pali keno. So, you know, like, different tradition use like different, you know, parts of the original and the like commentary, like combined. And so sometimes that even like conflict is between one tradition and the other tradition. So it is really like, it is really difficult because, like, people believe, you know, like what they first come to contact with the dharma. So if you get a benefit from the, you know, not mention one, like, just say that just one tradition. So you just like, believe everything about that. You know, that tradition have been told you and. But later you, you understand that, okay, there are other tradition and they also, they are also good tradition and they, you know, people get benefited. So sometimes the conflict is. Is already inside, but like, no one like, really talk about it unless that, unless that it became like, you know, bigger and bigger. And when it became a bigger, like, it became like it is. It turned bad. You know, it's turned bad even in the like, Buddhist, like Burmese Buddhist society. So yes, so that's the conflict is there. And I've seen it. Yes. So but I guess that it is the. It is like now people like, you know, if you study like Buddhism for like, quite a long time, I think people can be like, accept that, okay, they are like different view and different tradition and, and you have a freedom to choose what benefit for you and it should, it should be.
- [09:37]
A
I think what's interesting as well is that in Burma you have so many different types of tradition. I mean, you have the pariyadi, you have the padi padi, the practice, the meditation instruction, alongside the different views of the scriptures and the suttas and what. And so many different academic parts that. That can be studied. And then you simply have lineages that, that by blood, by geography, by family, by association. And, and, and I've met so many Burmese that, you know, will just go to a certain cedar because that's the monastery they went when they were a kid, and they still go to it. And they kind of have no idea what monastery is to the left or the right because that's the one their family's always been to. So, you know, there's. There's this really complex arrangement that I've tried to explain to Westerners and Western practitioners because it's something so different than our country when we're coming into local Sanghas or, or practice groups or meditation communities. The fact that there could be so many varied associations and experiences where you might go and talk to this teacher because of this reason and then go in this tradition because of that and, and then some. Then Maybe you do service or you, you do something some kind of, you know, social. Some helpful social engagement at some other monastery.
- [10:58]
B
So like for that like for example, like my grandma, like you know, she is like, she's come from like a like town. So basically like before her you know, childhood she go to like specific monastery and then when she moved to the big city she became like that. Not like she basically she go to the monastery that affiliate with that specific man from the childhood. So that's, that's how like you, you learn and grow. It depends from like you know where your region is from. And so at first it would be like a bit of limitation like contact with the outside of the. Your tradition. But if you move to like a big city and you get a lot of friends and you know the, the Seattle that your friend is like going there, it's like, oh, he is like really good at the teaching the meditation. So later join it into like basically like Mahasi tradition. So at the time the Mahasi is like really, really famous. So you know like the whole family is like going to like Mahasi. And we didn't know outside of that the tradition until like you know, later like some other tradition is like became a well known. So at the time of course like you know, there's some like some kind of like a conflict between like or which is right and which is like which. Like which teacher teaching is wrong. So that you know, we had that and it shaped our like how to say. I wasn't well informed about other tradition outside of my own tradition at the time. So that. But of course, you know, when it became like later I learned to know that okay that you know, the other tradition are good as well. So, so and then I learned to embrace and all parts of the tradition. Like you know, now we have like different tradition like Mogo or like PA out and. And that like. So that, that's how I began to like accept the teaching. And I read that you know, different like the teacher book, like the recording. So I listened to that and they are equally good as you know, as the Mahasi. So yes, that is how I became change and embrace that.
- [13:21]
A
You know, there's so many traditions in meditation traditions in Burma. I mean I'm speaking particularly like meditation techniques and you know, recalling back the way that Gustav Haltman has characterized it, which I strongly recommend any listener to check out. It's probably one of my all time favorite interviews that we've done where he describes it as a rolling bird and he describes the transmission of meditation techniques As a rolling bird that doesn't go in a straight direction, but kind of jumps and hops here and there and makes it hard to trace. And I don't think there's certainly not a map. I don't even know if there would be any possibility of creating a map to show comprehensively all of the traditions that exist in Burma. I think it'd be totally impossible. But one of the things I'm curious about is like what degree are you aware of within these traditions there being a sense of harmony that we're. Well, we're all kind of striving for the same goal and we have different ways of doing it. But this isn't so wonderful that we're practicing these teachings of liberation. And you know, we have these different ways to do it. And to what degree is there like real infighting? And you know, mine is better than yours and these guys got it all wrong. And kind of sharp elbows. And I'm sure it's not one or the other. I'm sure it's a bit of, you know, it's not monolith. But can you talk a bit about, you know, to what degree there's mutual respect for different ways to go about it and to what degree. There's a lot of kind of tension underneath the surface that as. As outside pract practitioners, we wouldn't really catch upon. But as someone from the inside, you know, everyone kind of knows what's going on.
- [14:56]
B
Yes, I think that the. The rolling back analogy is like very correct. And I think how to say that the like the one that you know, when the lead teacher is that alive, you know, he is the master and that the lead, the founding the tradition like the figure is like die. It's begin like you know, the lineage began like die out eventually. But of course like this modern time, like we able to like, you know, like we have a recording. So it's kind of like it stay the same but depend on the. You know, like his children might prefer to make their own tradition. And you know, because like you would just prefer their specific more like style. So that kind of thing happened. But of course the respect for the each other tradition is there. The. The lead teacher were like the, you know, were always like respect the different tradition. The conflict is like. The conflict is that is from like not the literature itself is more like from the. The like the junior like teacher. And it is sometimes that it is more about the organization. It's like, oh my tradition is right. You are wrong. You know, it's. It's not about the, you know, it is about. It's, it's already there in the, like in the light and underneath the, you know, the, like the, underneath the below. But it's, I feel like the, the literature I always like respect the different tradition. That's what how I feed it.
- [16:37]
A
It's really interesting and I like your answer because I think, you know, I think you're showing the, the distinction between a, a really revered and wise master who has developed a liberating technique and those worldlings, those imperfect worldlings who then come under him. It's usually a him. Some cases it's a her that, that are bringing their own ego, their own tribalism, their own roles and responsibilities, their own desire for status or, or Donna and donation and at everything else. And that, you know, that can shape infighting within the organization as well as between organizations, that identification, you know, and I think, I also think it matters quite a bit to what degree the lead teacher is encouraging an identification and a tribalism among students and teachers and to what degree they're, they're encouraging a more flexibility, open mindedness. I mean, you know, organizational culture starts at the top. So I think that's part of it too. But I think another key thing what you said is that you know, what happens when the lead teacher dies because usually nothing good happens. You know, usually there are the, the few kind of, you know, real kind of nitty gritty backdoor like stories of like what happens that I've heard, I've heard a few of them and they've been very ugly and things I've never shared because I've been so shocked by kind of how, how appalling it was. You know, what the kind of the, the immediate fight for lineage control and status and you know, recognition and, and everything else. It's, it's never really that good what develops. So I think that's a really interesting thread that you picked up. But then the other thread you picked up, which I want to follow up on, that I think is really interesting is what is the expectation of a teacher for their students to follow in their line. Because you know, in, in some cases, particularly in the Goinkus case, you know, there's, there's a mythology that's told that, that there is a, a single kind of perfect technique, pure technique which has never changed and, and, and, and hasn't evolved and, and is exactly the same. And, and I've heard of examples of other teaching lineages where evolution, even Sayajuba Ken, we've heard from Fried Lodermoser, that Sajubic Ubiken fully expected the teachers that he appointed to be able to make appropriate changes. And so.
- [19:15]
B
So when we. When we talk about. I think that. Well, talk about the Goinga, I think that he grew up in like, Hind Hindu background. So, you know, even though he live in like, you know, Burmese like, like society, he. He wasn't really like, you know, Buddhist in the beginning or that kind of thing. So he might probably don't know how the meditation, like tradition evolve because like that kind of thing that you can only know when you like really study. And so, you know, he believes that. I mean, how to say it is like typical. Like Burmese, like Buddhists think that this meditation is like being passed down from the Buddha Buddha. So that. That is like, you know, we. We truly believe that but with the different, like tradition have a different emphasis on, you know, like this. Like, for example, like this tradition profile, like this technique and that tradition provide different techniques. So. So that kind of thing is like. Exists. So what I think that one like going out organization. He. He. The way that he established is that he being told that, you know, Ubakin tradition and he want to make it for the like for the outline for the foreigner. I feel like that for the Banh Mi, it's like what we like, scare fear is most is that, you know, let's say that our meditation, like someone from the outside the Western world came to the country and learned the tradition and later double like, deliberately like, change it into like a different way and like teach outside. Because in like our country, if you want to teach like Dharma, like meditation, you have to be like. You have to be like, oh, you know, like at least like some like, theory background. So Western Westerner who. Who came to the country and learned the technique, they usually don't have that. I mean, the theoretical background. But of course, like later it changed a lot of like Western, like became a study party and read it. So what the Burmese people scared. I mean, I think that what going also scared is that, you know, people like learn from him and changing into that. You know, it like became an like a demat. Basically, like not Dharma anymore. So. So I think that's why he want to make his tradition is this, you know, as like how to say it's more like not changing anything because he just fear that, you know, it will be like turning into like. Like Adama. Like eventually that's what my. My feeling. And so that's what. That's why I feel like I can understand him. But in like, in Burma, you know, people like study that moms like the study like you know, when they, they learn the test and they, they develop their own tradition and sometimes you have a conflict, but they have a like theory backup and they can just like pull the book and you know, show that okay, this is the Pali, you know, canon and this is the commentary. So my teachings are aligned with this book and so my teaching is correct. But in that sense that also that you know, like the, you can interpret like the Buddhist teaching into whatever you want because you know, because that kind of thing happened like so, so that is the thing that we also have to be like think about it because their own interpretation, right? That, that is the, that's thing. So I think that both side have a, you know, have a. Yeah. The problem with that, I think that's
- [23:08]
A
another really good point. It's, it's something else I've seen as I've crossed cultures that in Myanmar you have such a wealth of training and teaching and peer review and authentication and you know, all of that is as is built into the system is kind of ensuring that you, that there's grounding for what you do. But the disadvantage of that is sometimes that structure can be kind of so over, over bureaucratized and it can have its own, you know, within that bureaucracy there could be its, its own kind of arcane nature that can kind of limit certain flexibility and certain adaptation. Although, you know, even as I say that, I think anyone who knows anything about Burmese Buddhist lineages and wakesa and everything else, I don't think you can accuse any part of the Sangha at any time in history of not being flexible and innovative. Mean there, when you really get into it, there are some really wild and, and, and incredible things that different traditions have developed. But you know, in the west, the, the and outside Burma, there's kind of the opposite issue where anyone, anywhere can this can, can just simply say, well the Buddha said this and this is a Buddhist practice because dot, dot, dot, and I'm teaching you Buddhist meditation and do like this and you know, literally nothing that it is they're teaching or saying could have any relevance or accuracy with the Buddhist teachings. And there's no penalty for that. There's, there's nothing holding that in place. There's, there's no, there's, there's no authority anywhere that's checking something else. Anyone can just do whatever it is they want that can lead to further innovation and, and in some ways, I mean I might even argue the spread of mindfulness and meditation as it went around the world, it was carried in many cases by people that were doing things outside that orthodoxy because they had to in order to get it to take root in other countries. And so there is that push, pull in, you know, kind of greater institutional structure and training and, and peer review and, and, and, and authority on one hand. And then you know, the, the, the, the benefits and dangers that brings.
- [25:18]
B
Yes, that's true. That's true. Yes. I think that in the west, like, I mean outside of Burma, like they are more like how to say that or practice is like main that, you know, in Bama, like, like, you know, beside the practice, like we also like study the sutra, like study the Abhidhamma. They are like central like to like everyday, like you know, Buddhist life. But outside of Burma, the main is a practice. The like practice is the key. So which is great because like, you know, the practice is like it's going to be going to benefit people. Right. And I think that also like, like outside of Myanmar, I feel that how to say that they are more like focused on the like sutra, that kind of thing. But in Burma, like the Abhidharma is like the key. And I was shocked, like, you know, when I first like landed, you know, Abhidhamma wasn't like original teaching of the Buddha. That, that was like when I first hear it, I was like shocked really. I'm like. Because in Burma it's like Abhidhamma is, is the most important text that you know. And we've been told that like the one that Buddhism will be like, disappear. The Abhidhamma will be like the first thing, you know, to lose it. So you know, you have to study because you have to preserve it. But when you know you have from the outside world and you say that, oh, you know, Abhidhamma is not important because it's not the original, it is the later development. So it shocked me, like it shocked my foundation. So
- [26:56]
A
that's incredible. That's, that's so interesting to hear. And I think you're touching upon another kind of mythology. We talk a lot about the mythologies in these kinds of teaching and the mythology that kind of holds it all together in places. And you're talking about a particular and very common and widespread form of Burmese Buddhist mythology of having such a central place of that that's probably even hard to describe to the foreign practitioner just truly how important the Abhidhamma is and, and find out that it's not an original teaching. As you say, it shook your foundation and so how, how were you able or did. Were you able to make sense of this seeming contradiction?
- [27:39]
B
I mean so bummy slice have an explanation for that. Like you know, we have like a well versed in the theology, like why the, the the is like the original. But I don't fully grasp like his, like the term he used and the technology, the kind of like the, you know, I didn't fully grasp it. But what I, for the practitioner point of view, like you know what I. And like I feel like this, that epidoma is like so much like teacher. And so I mean like normal, like normal like meditator for me. Like, like that won't be able to like get that detail of the epidural like mind and the matter of that kind of thing. But the people who have a, you know, like very advanced level will be able to understand this like Abhidhamma, the concept. And I think that for me like the benefit is like more important like at the moment. And the, you know, the scholar, the job is that, you know, they're finding out that how, you know, bitma is like, is that all is original or not. But I try to be like open and you know, prepare to accept whatever the outcome may be. Yes. So I'm prepared.
- [29:03]
A
Another part of that question is related to, you know, freedom of thought, freedom of expression, critical engagement. And I don't have so much experience in, in and so much Burmese language fluency to be able to know how these conversations take place at monasteries. I know a bit more about the school system and I know a bit about how students are, are not really meant to ask questions in classes or question their teachers or you know, they're just, they're. They're meant to, to memorize mainly and in monastery, then again, there's so many different monasteries. It might be different in different places, but we've spent a lot, a lot of time on this platform in Western contexts talking about where group think has taken over critical thought and then the reverse of that where some kind of submission of ego is absolutely necessary for the spiritual process. And so to what degree is there an ability to really in critical conversation and free expression and even challenging. And a lot goes into this. I mean it could be your place as a, a younger female practitioner and an elder male, obviously monk.
- [30:13]
B
So even today, you know, the social media, there are a few months who criticize the commentary and not many, not many, but there are a few months who criticize the, the, you know, the commentary and the sample of the school and they do like openly on the return on the social media, some, some of them don't really receive well, you know, like let's say that another like you know, like tradition from like people, maybe even lay people share that, you know, the social media post and say that oh this man is criticizing, you know, the commentary and it should be punished. You know. So, so the kind of thing is that you know, exists and but traditionally if we look at the traditionally like school system and then with the, the education is like the you know, study the text. So moms usually like study everything by heart and after like you know they, they finished the study, they went to the forest and they practice it and at the time they, they, they have to like experience that the whole thing. So, so I feel like that you know, you learn everything but after that you, you practice that and you know what is true and what is not true. But even the people like who found that you know, like meditation tradition don't personally like challenge the commentary. But I know that some of the like ladies at all like will have a little bit challenged to the famous commentator like Buddha Gosa. So you know that was like, that was quite big even at the time. Oh yeah, you know, so I mean he like Buddha Gosa is like, you know, it's like well respect in the, you know, in our like the whole of the terravara, not just like Burmese like. And yes he has some credits and he written some critics and that. So, so yes, that is it.
- [32:20]
A
Yeah, absolutely. Lady Sayada was an example I was going to give of someone quite revolutionary and pushing against the system. And the other name I put there very strongly at the same level would be Maha Gandhi Onseeda that you know, someone who profoundly wanted to reform monastic education, saw the dangers where it was going of road memorization and you know, leading away from the kind of, the kind of more freer association and practice and, and, and kind of a wide basket one can have. I, I really recommend Kamai Damasami's book on the history of monastic education in Burma. I always refer back to it. It's so fascinating to see how it developed through the centuries and where Magandion really was, was, was trying to take it away from this kind of exam based culture that you know, ultimately won out and, and where Pakoku also fit, tried to fit into doing things a bit differently. I've often joked it's not a joke, it's funny. But it's very true that if you were to take Maha Gandhion's words and some of his criticisms about the ways that Burmese Buddhists engage incorrectly in Buddhism. If you, and this is one of the most revered monks in Burmese history, of course, you know, Magendion. But if you were to take some of his criticism and just post it on social media but not attribute it to him and you would be canceled and probably have death threats against you. I mean this is how strongly, I'm sure, you know, I'm sure you've read his works. This is how strongly, I mean, I'm shocked. I mean I read these things and I was shocked to read how harsh his criticisms were of, you know, the wrong way that people were engaging with meditation practice and study and monastic exam culture and you know, lay practice and lazy monks and, and, and everything else. I mean it's incredible.
- [34:10]
B
Yes, that's true, that's true. And like now like you know, present day, like we like can see completely why he, you know, he said this kind of words because you know, now we, we have a lot of correctments and even the people like, like lay people like practicing like wrongly and you know, not in the right, how to say, the right mindset way of like doing things. So yes, I can see that that's, I think that it is right. I really like what you said that when you, you know, if you use the same, the word that he used without you know, mentioning his name that you will get death threat. That's true. That's totally true. Yeah.
- [34:53]
A
Goenka is obviously such a major tradition around the world and has been so impactful in so many places. And a question is often, you know, well, well, what's Goenka's place in Burma? How big is it in Burma? How many people practice there? How do they look at him? How do they look upon him? And the way I usually answer that is that most, and it's not always been the case. I mean it being Indian, a Burmese born Indian, you know, from a Hindu background there there's definitely suspicion about him and some maybe subtle racism that existed there. But I think that in more recent years that's been replaced and really at the highest state levels even in, in military there's been an appreciation that he was able to spread the practice and a Burmese form of the practice. There's kind of a pride that he's been able to do something no one else did and, and, and so he's highly respected that way. But then the question comes, who actually, which Burmese are actually practicing with Goenko? What are the, what are the kinds of Burmese that would choose this tradition over others? And of course in some cases, it's the same as anywhere else. Their family did it. It's. They have some association. They've done it because, you know, they were kind of brought into it as they're brought into any other lineage. But there's another strand that I find very interesting. And I. And I would pull up the words of Sway Win in Descri describing it. He describes it very clearly on our podcast when he came on and. And others have said this, but I think he. He was most kind of direct with it. Sway Win and others, their. Their orientation towards Goenka practice. The reason they like it so much is because of what you just said, this criticism of corrupt monks, that there's this hierarchy, there's this. There's this. This laziness that's set in. There's this kind of this protocol and this respect you have to do. And you know, for people like sw, there's just this sense that, well, I don't want to deal with any of that. And it's almost like a rejection. It's almost like I want to get the Dhamma and the Buddhist teachings, but I want to bypass this whole state monastic structure that I've lost faith in. And with Goenka, I'm able to navigate this way into the practice without having to deal with this kind of monastic establishment in my country, which I really don't want anything to do with.
- [37:10]
B
With from my generation. I think that he is, well, respect and you know, we see him as a Dhamma messenger, like, who trying to like, you know, spread the Dhamma. So we. We have a respect him and. But like, like ordinary, like Burmese, like not a lot of like Burmese predators tradition is just because of like, you know, like how to say that is not truly about like Buddhism, you know, it's not like involving mom. So basically, like when like Bambi is like go to the meditation, we also want to get a marriage, like donating a month. So you know, like for the Goingka pack, like, we don't have that kind of like merit. Like, there is no merit making kind of like, I mean, you. You have a merit just because, like you don't you donate the food like, but you know, to lay people who practice in the going tradition. But if you want have like more like, you know, to. If you want to give marks to that, like bigger merit. So that's why I think that that is a reason that, you know, Going Predict is not very that popular in Burma. But of course that, you know, people like it just because the Correct man. You know like these days that that is exact. So if you know, like sometimes I really don't want to deal with that, you know, months and stuff. So I think that that the lab like you know, the lay people like teaching. I think that that is like a better way and as long as that you know the labor doesn't have a resources. Like I think that these days we have a lot of resources about the test and like so that is. That is like became like another like second choice might not be the best choice but that that's. I think that that is like how it's happened. So I do have a feel like that lucky. We are very lucky that we have a laborism like you know going out tradition asics in our country may not be the first tries but definitely it's a good place. If you, if you are coming from like different religious background even you know that let's say that like, like Christianity like Bami Christian want to practice the meditation and he don't feel like comfortable going to like monastery and see the you know, mass and see the Buddha statue. I think that going up place is pretty good. Like teaching you know, at least like basic level. You know for the advanced level you just have to study on your own. So for the like entryway I think that it's really good even for like peace.
- [39:59]
A
Right. So you bring up an interesting element of secular Buddhism or lay Buddhism. And Goen is obviously a very famous example of that. And, and it's coming from Burma from the UIN tradition, from the Sai tradition. Are, are there other lay Buddhist teachers and secular Buddhist practices in Burma that you can tell us about that maybe are not so well known outside that haven't been so exported but are available among the Burmese?
- [40:29]
B
Yes, we do have the lay like you know that they are people like. But they usually came from like well known tradition. Like how to say that they, they are connected with like whether like lead lady Seattle or you know like and it is not very well known and even that the tradition is small. So they just like their own group just studying. Not just like meditation. They also you know study group and like basically like doing like practice study. So it is asus but not like not as big as going. And they usually like you know have a connection from like famous man like ladies yaddle and if you, if you met, let's say there's someone like who, who is like teacher and you know like they are practicing that meditation and if you go and ask that oh you know what tradition are you Teaching and say, oh, oh, you know, they. They are from Lady Sierra lineage. So basically. So that is like how they connect with them, the tradition.
- [41:39]
A
That's interesting. As we're talking about these other traditions, I also recall you shared something interesting about. You mentioned your grandmother earlier in this conversation and you shared something interesting before we started recording about your grandmother, as you said in the beginning of the interview, that, that she came into the mah tradition but that there was a lot of discrimination early on about PA Oak and so that teaching wasn't so available in her lifetime. And you felt sorry about that. Can you expand on that?
- [42:12]
B
Yeah. So I think that when she, you know, doing like meditation like around like 80s and 90s like, I think that Mahas is like really, really popular. And you know, and at the time that. That we have a lot of like journal like journals book written about the meditation and always being about Mahathi and you know, basically like the. The. The topic is like how to do like meditation. So they have it's like brief like, you know, instruction like walking meditation. So. And so that kind of thing like exists of course, like, you know, in the kind of like journal like, you know, there was a particularly story written about the power tradition and saying that oh, is it. Isn't it. That isn't a true, you know, teaching of the Buddha. And so I read that one as a child and it have a huge impact on me. So I didn't really like, you know, learn like, I mean I always like curious because like the pahao became growing like bigger and bigger, bigger when I grow up. But I do have that, you know, that that text that I read is like I'm in my mind. So for a long time. So I didn't really, you know, land the power until I left the country, you know, last 10 years ago. And then I kind of understand that how big power became. And I feel like, okay, if you know, if he became so big, that must be doing something right. Right. I mean, so I just like and learn about the pow and. And I kind of understand that the way that, you know, he. He like stretch her like or teach the way. And I how to say that it is. I kind of like for Bami, like some of the Burmese perspective like that they didn't want to emphasize Samata just because I feel like that. That if you just like emphasize the Samata practice that you've got the jhana and you have all this, you know, like the psychic power and that is quite like deviate from the, you know, like the Main goal. That's what like some of the Buddhists like feel that time and even like you know like some, let's say the lay people, like Burmese lay Buddhists who want to go to like you know, Pao, they just. Some of them. No but like they want to have the supernatural like you know, the psychic power that they want to get it and they just want to use their. For their living. And you know, in, in Burma like if you live in Burma like you might probably know that we have a very like strong like the psychic people who just make a like carry on the living, that kind of thing. So, so that's you know like how we call like a Jamie basically like the. They. They use the psychic power get from the meditation and you know, just make a living because like our country is like poor. So you know, in order to like do a make a living without manual labor is that you know, the sidekick. That kind of power is like so. So some people draw that you know, to their power. And I that's, you know, sometimes of the negativity is like oh. But you know like oh, the people who go to like PA out are just for the, you know, just for the psychic powers. No good. Not good. So some people, some bummies still think that way, you know. But of course, you know, when I learn I kind of like understand that why this scimitar like is. Is important. It's like it's really like important. You know, the foundation and like the. From the light, you know, like the. Let's say that like, like from like 60, 70 like they just like focus more on Vipassana because like if you're doing for Samata, it take a lot of time. So let's just you know like skip that Samata part and focus on the form of inside Vipassana part. So. So but of course like you know, now I feel like that okay, the like Pao is like a solid, you know, solid like you know, solid like how to say the Buddhist like meditation and. And just like you know, some people, some months they just like scared that you know, part of teaching became a bigger than their like tradition. So they just like spread the false, you know, news about that. That's what I now understand it.
- [46:49]
A
So then that's getting back to my earlier question where I mentioned or I asked about to what degree is there can there be toxicity between the traditions? It sounds like the discrimination and bias against Paok would be an obvious example of. Of spreading you know, basically misinformation about this practice to scare people off of it. It seems like this, this would certainly be one of those prime examples of a kind of toxicity wanting to damage the reputation of a teacher or technique. Technique.
- [47:24]
B
Yes, yes, it is. It happens. Like I, I seen that, you know, some people just like want to damage the, the PA only and. Yeah, but obviously that, you know, when, when this time I think that the power became like a very, like a biggest tradition. So now I think the negativity going away mostly. But of course there are some, you know, some tradition they still like openly written. Oh they are, you know, they are not Buddhist. I mean, how to say that? Because like the power theater, like in his teaching is like he talk about like, you know, seeing the past life and seeing the future life. And some men don't really like it because they, they feel that, you know, that kind of power is like only available like for the, like Buddha and you know, his like famous disciple, not for the, you know, like for the ordinary people have to practice or, you know, that that kind believed and they said they don't dare to like, practice or they don't dare to look at that, you know, like many, many past life. And they feel like that, that is threatening the, the you know, vipassana emphasis of the present day.
- [48:38]
A
So yes, this opens up a wider conversation of, you know, when we're looking at developing certain supernatural powers with meditation, but then also abilities to be able to divine past lives, see across different planes, know the future, be in two places at once, read minds, fly through the sky. So many different. Or, you know, have the body die and not decompose. So many different kinds of certain powers and stories that are very commonplace in Burma of the existence of ghosts, of um, of other beings that are, we're sharing this world with. And it's um. I feel like there is. There has become something of a divergence with the younger generation that's exposed to greater thoughts of modernity. But until very recently, in large parts of Burma, there was a real comfort and normalcy in welcoming the supernatural into one's life, whether it was how one experienced it in daily life or whether it was developing certain practices or powers that would be able to do things. And there was a real normality in integrating this into one's life. And we've spent a lot of conversations on this podcast talking about the concept of erasure. We've talked about it with Alicia Turner, with, with Daniel Stewart, with Gustav Houtman, and this sense that there was this, these, these more supernatural elements that were involved as Buddhism and as meditation brought started to spread for various reasons intentionally and unintentionally. These elements were. Were not so talked about. And often in like inside circles or at elite levels you kind of people who knew knew. But for the most part it was kind of pushed aside by Burmese as well as by Westerners for different reasons and which we've covered extensively in other other podcasts.
- [50:38]
B
Oh, you know, about me is like growing up like in Burma at the times like we. We have a traditionally belief that you know the kind of like ghost or invisible like beings that exist and, and for as a child like we absorb that one, you know. But like like. But later like we became like a question like when you become like ad to. I mean some of the kid like even the Gen Z they. They question it because like you cannot see with your own eyes. So right. So. So that's sometime that. So there is a clearly like like the division in that in one's life that what kind of thing you are going to believe it. And you know the like I think the traditional like my grandma is like, you know, the best is to practice it and, and then you know, you can see yourself. I think that is completely. I completely agree with me because in the past that I, I have a difficult time and believing that you know, about the ghost or like that supernatural power and but later like you know, when I was like a young child I really read a book about. Let's say that you know in the journal that some of the lead devotee like wrote about his teacher that Monks Seattle is like having a supernatural power. So basically like the monks can sense that a lot of like visitors are coming at the night. So he asked that his late assistant to cook for the you know, food in the middle of the night. So, so the lay like assistant don't understand, you know, why mom has to cook a lot of rice and carry and within like a one hour like you know there is a car. It's like big car like coming with a lot of people. And then so he is like oh okay. That is why that you know our teacher asked me to cook a lot of food at the middle of the night. So he is like written about that kind of story in the journal, not just saying that oh my, my, you know my teacher is like very, very well developed in their meditation. And so at the time, you know, for me like it's quite difficult to believe it. But now I feel like more open you know, like with them and I kind of accept that one. But the young people like young generation like Gen Z who haven't reached that, that stage yet might be to forgotten. I think that is like one of the reason like when the you know, younger generation became more idiots and because they still didn't like have a like, you know, contact with them. And I think I feel like that we should be more open, you know. And even though like I didn't have experience in the some of the like supernatural power or like the kind of thing, but I do have a belief that you know, if you really practice and if you are like really advanced, you begin like once you begin advanced level, you, you'll be able to see those things. That's what I feel.
- [53:53]
A
Right. So another thing I want to get to is I know that, that you've been quite affected as mentioned earlier in this conversation about some of the episodes we've published with some Western academics, Western practitioners who have developed quite a wealth of knowledge about Burmese Buddhist practice and have come on to speak about their experience. So I wonder if you can share some of those guests that have impacted you most and how the information they were giving, how it was so different. I mean you, you're born Burmese Buddhist. All your life you've had access to many different voices and many different thoughts. What was it about what you were hear screen from some of the guests on our platform that gave you something very new and different from your past background? And why did that have the kind of impact that it had on you?
- [54:46]
B
So I think that I mean a lot of the you know, the podcast like episode is like about like in the Western people way of like like doing that meditation and stuff. So I was like how to say I learned from like different perspective and different like the way that they like they practice it is more like more singular and like. But of course like you know, when I, when I feel like that when I listen to the episode like Frugal for example, I really like amused to like find out about the you know, invisible like that, you know, invisible being like the all the luck and you know, life force and dark forces like the power that. That is pretty interesting because like in the past I, I just didn't, you know we have a like background but I never of think that way because I feel like that they're just like made up later, you know, just to attract like people to the into their meditation. So I never pay fully attention. But when the fluker talk about the dark and the light forces and how the, you know, they have the thing I was like a big shock. And I also feel like they're A bit like overwhelmed by that, that kind of thing. Because I would never like, expect that is to be like, talk openly, you know, by, by the Western like people. So I think that I a bit shocked about that. But traditionally we have a belief that, you know, like the dark forces and life force, like good invisible being and bad invisible being, like, they have a power, like struggles kind of thing. But hearing from her and that is like a big lot of insight and also from like, good stuff, you know, and he talked about that how the meditation tradition and then, you know, the political, like, changings impact on the meditation tradition. That is like a new insight for me because I never looked at that way because I, you know, in there I just think that these traditions, like just pop up off nowhere, you know. But now I understand that, you know, like, okay, that is the political, like, you know, situation has an effect on the, like, the development of the meditation tradition. And even that it. It gave me into a like, more how to say that more bigger view. And how throughout the Myanmar history, how the kings and how do they shape the meditation tradition because, like, they interact with the mark so depend on the personal interaction between the king and the monk. It can be like, you know, it can be like, introduced or it can bond the new tradition or it can, you know, dry or die out the, you know, the tradition. So it makes me to think a bigger picture, learning about how the meditation tradition are formed and how they are encouraged or discovered, discouraged by the, you know, the politic.
- [58:10]
A
It's so true. And that's where, like, if you go back even further than Gustaf and, And Free Guard and some of the guests that you're talking about and go to my. Getting back to my long list of. Of wish lists for guests that we. I hope we have on eventually. Michael Charney and Jason Carbine, you know, two names that come to mind that have written centuries earlier about how different monastic cliques were or, or different groups were almost battling, you know, for authenticity and were trying to show that their version and their interpretation was the right one. But this was not a battle that was fought strictly over logical, coherent arguments. It was also fought over, you know, having the ear of the king and being able to convince the king, you know, which kind of which lineages and, and, and. And which sects, you know, should no longer be allowed to continue and which ones needed to be fostered. And in some cases that would mean, you know, bringing monks from Sri Lanka or something to, you know, to. To officially ordain in whatever the, the new kind of theory was. But, you know, yeah, the, the, the degree to which politics and the dharma in Myanmar has been interrelated throughout centuries. It's, you know, it's incredible and it's both ways. I mean, Buddhist thought has influenced every level of the political body for centuries. And, and the nature of the political systems that have developed in Myanmar have shaped, have punished. Have supported different types of practices and lineages to take off. And that's always been the case. And so to have a mindset that, that, that, that this monastic practice, this meditation practice is somehow removed from the messiness of the world, you know, it's just absolutely wishful thinking because any view of history shows that these two forces have been interacting with one another and shaping one another in, you know, in, in. In ways that are very deep and very profound.
- [60:15]
B
Yes, that's true. That's true. Because even like, you know, if when we look at the Burmese history like the, the. Well, Buddhism was already there in the like Pew city state, but it wasn't that big as you know, like the nationwide kind of thing. But I think that you know once they're like like the king no when he became like founder began empire, like the first thing is like he, he make us like the. He make us to connect the Burmese identity and the Buddhist kind of identity. So you know, that is like for the Burmese part I feel like that. That we are identified as a Buddhist because thanks to their kin. Right. For the you know, but other minority might view differently. But I think that the politic is like. It's very very like even with the like engaging between the different kingdom. You know, like for example like the. In the history like Burmese king have a close relation with the. The Sri Lanka. Just because of the Sri Lanka is the. That the country where the Viso di Margast was written and you know it is the country that the. The whole Pali canoe was written down. So Burmese king always have a respect to the Australian gods. So that kind of, you know, close connection and make it like, you know, whenever like let's say that Australian guard need help. So like the Neue tank King that 11th century King Thai century A to the. To the Sri Lanka and Even in the 16th century the Vietnam the King Vietnam when the. The Sri Lanka king asked for the military aid he gave it to because you know he feel like that he have to protect the you know, Buddhist kingdom. So yes, I think that is really interesting that how you know we the politics and the Buddhism and that make us feel like they're connected. You know. For the Burmese, like, point of view, that if you. Let's say that if someone is like, from Sri Lanka or Thailand or we. We feel like that, okay, they are like, you know, like Buddhist and we feel like more. How to say, you know, more like friendly way in that way because, like, we share the same religion and same kind of like a culture. So, yes, that is really interesting how the political politics, you know, change and. But also, as you mentioned, the danger, like the, you know, is that the king didn't agree with their view, you know, particularly like that, you know, that tradition, that meditation tradition or the same lineage of the man. That means that it can be very, very bad for the, you know, the tradition can die out. So.
- [63:06]
A
Yes, that's right. That's right. And I want to get back to your characterization of Freed Guard, talking about light and dark forces, talking about the. The spirit of her. Her deceased father coming and sharing merits after her first IMC course. And as the Freed Guard episodes will go on, there's just more and more and more of this. And I think the way that Fried Guard talks so naturally about the experience with the supernatural is in itself kind of evidence of to what degree she has really uniquely integrated into aspects of Burmese Buddhist culture. You know, that. Because this is the. That for anyone who's really lived among Burmese Buddhists for an extended period of time, she is speaking about these experiences the way that those in the community would and embodied it in that same way. And, and, and I think. And that brings us back as well to this notion of just the, the everyday normalcy and integration of just acknowledging supernatural experiences all around. And I think that's, you know, so much of what Freegard brings is. Is. Is talking about the mundane, talking about the personalities, talking about the experiences. And then within this whole kaleidoscope and talking, of course, talking about the history and the culture, all that's in there within this kaleidoscope of extraordinary detail that she's providing. As you say, then there's these very normal tellings of. Of. Of unbelievable supernatural experiences, but not told in an unbelievable way told. You know, explaining those stories and experiences the same way that she would explain what the we like on some day or, you know, how a certain curry was made or a certain kind of Burmese dress that she was wear, that she would wear. They were. They were. One was not more extraordinary than another.
- [64:57]
B
Yes, I think that the, like, when I, you know, hear the talking about this kind of thing, I was like a bit shocked and because from my understanding is that, you know, when the. The. This Buddhist, Zen or like the meditation tradition and are going to the west and they cut off about the supernatural part because, like, you know, it became like more secular and more practical. So that's. That's what I feel like that. Okay, let's don't talk about this unless that you experience it. So when she, of course she have an experience about her, like, dead father is like coming to that, you know, meditation and when they are sharing the marriage. So I think that for her is that more like a personal. Because like the cma, the mother Siamma won't be able to know that, you know, her stepfather is not her real father. Right. So I think that that became like, how to say that it's more like, okay, she have a direct experience kind of thing. So. But for the most people, like, even for me, I don't have that kind of like, experience. And so. But to be honest, like, I was like a big shock when she openly talking to like, Western audience kind of thing. But I. I do feel like that it is necessary. I mean, because like, if we like, you know, like cut out that the supernatural part is like later, like, if a person might experience that thing and it can be like a question like, why, you know, why we. No one tell me about this before. So that. I think that she is like, very, very brave in that. That kind of thing. And also that, you know, even, like, for Bambi, it's like, even though we do have a belief about the light and dark forces, like the, you know, like good invisible being and bad invisible beings, like, they have a power struggle. And we like, for example, like, you know, patana, the one session of the Abhidhamma. And in that, like, Burmese tradition, like, you know, a lot of like, people believe that the patana shouldn't be recite in the like, normal household because of the good invisible being will come to listen to the patana. But you know, but normally, like, you know, like some of the houses or some of the like hotel, they can be like, bad invisible being. So bad invisible being have to be like, you know, leave when the good invisible being come and they feel like really angry and they cause the trouble to the human, you know, and those kind of things. So some people feel like that, oh, we should not recite the pathana because we don't want to angry that invisible being around us. The kind of thing that is like, the conflict is there, you know. So, yeah, so I think that it's like really like, how to say, like, quite difficult to like, what to what to expect and what to practice. And even within that, you know, Burmese society, we do have a thing. I'm very thankful for the fruit God to get more open because like, for me we do have a traditional belief that this invisible being exists and dark and life force. But someone like Bumi said to me is completely different from the like people like, you know, who have personal experience. You know, that is a huge difference. That's why that in one of your episode, you, the speaker, I don't really know the name, but he got talked about the psychic power right from the meditation that he got it like getting a chocolate like from the, from the amps on something like he, he have like that getting the power of the, you know, he have a feeling that the chocolate will become. So thanks. His personal experience. Right. So sharing with us is like a huge impact on us because, you know, you know, like the Western people like view on testimony, not like the, you know, Burmese people who can make up the story. Right? Yeah.
- [69:27]
A
So, but you're, you're touching on something really important and profound and that's the root of this erasure. Because the root of the erasure came from a, a ridicule on the part of colonial administrators of these kind of, you know, superstitious and supernatural beliefs and an embarrassment on the part of Burmese to, you know, because they were being ridiculed. So, so all of this stuff started to be pushed under. And then when you had VPassana practice in the post war period and U nu having, you know, not just a Buddhist identity, but actually vipassana practice itself as being a part of the newly independent state and identification of, you know, of the Union of Burma, that this was able, this kind of very clean, scientific, modernist Buddhist approach. Coach was able to. To sweep aside all of these more embarrassing or unexplainable incidences so that, you know, Buddhism could be framed either as a lay practice, a secular practice, a mind body experience, so something like yoga or you know, something that just gave you inner peace so, you know, completely removed from religion or the opposite. It was framed as a religion. It's a religion like Christianity, like Islam, like Judaism, like Hinduism. It's. It's a religion on par with this and it kind of tended towards one of those two identifications. But wherever, however it was framed and whoever it was framed by that the erasure still existed of all of these kind of supernatural parts of the experience that were. That. That one was just uncomfortable to want to share from. Again, from whatever the angle was, whoever the background the person was the different motivations, but feeling that it's better to just leave this aside. But as we know with things, you know, just because you submerge something, and especially if you submerge something, it doesn't go away. You know, it doesn't disappear. That stuff is still there. It's just not talked about or it's not talked about openly or it's not acknowledged even. You know, in the Goenko organization there was a very inside, outside speak, a very kind of elite speak of those that were, were more inside with the organization and then the outward facing, the way you would describe it there was, you know, in the Goinko organization and this may be true of, of others as well. It's just the one I know know most. There's very much an acknowledgement of the existence of all of this supernatural reality. In fact, if you don't believe it, it would, or you don't experience it, it would kind of be unusual if you were making your way up the system. But there is a code switching that takes place where that is not what you lead with. And not only do you not lead with that as you're outward facing, if that's addressed, you downplay it, you dismiss it, you, you, you go to the, the rational, the scientific, the, you know, all of that. And you know, as, as brave as freed guard was in talking that all through which I completely agree with you. And it took her a long time to decide to be that brave in speaking and to weigh the consequences of her decisions. We also have to remember that Friedgaard knew the stakes of what she was saying and so would not release any of her talks until she passed away. You know, tragically I was pleading with her to allow these to be released during her lifetime knowing the kind of adoration and admir she would get and interest. But you know, she, her freedom and bravery came from knowing that her words would only be present when she was no longer. And that itself shows, you know, the way that these things were held and, and, and the, the sensitivity and what it means to talk openly. But I think this all feeds into, you know, it's a very profound thing you said said that when a Westerner says this then it, you know, it's not like these are new things we're hearing. These are things we grow up in our culture that we all know, we all believe in, we've had experiences with. But when we hear a Westerner saying it and saying it openly and out loud publicly, it's almost like we're seen. You know, there's this, this, this century old embarrassment and, and ridicule that, that we can hold in a different way because the same people that the people that were, you know, help, you know, encouraging us to suppress it are members of that community are now the ones who are acknowledging its existence. I think there's something in, in that and what you're saying when you talk about kind of the different life forces and beings that are out there. I always recall an anecdote that happened to me which I've told several times and, and really kind of was, was a small indicator that changed my approach into Burmese spiritual places physically and in the Sag Hills. And I would, I was not practicing in meditation centers where, you know, and that's important because meditation centers have protection. They, you, you're walking into a spiritually fortified or, or you should be walking into a spiritually fortified area where you, you're being taken care of energetically in some way. But when you're on your own, it could be a lot more exciting, it could be a lot more independent, but you also don't have that same protection. And, and the Sagayan Hills, you know, there are a lot of very, very, very strong energetic forces, let us say. And you know, Goenka always teaches on his courses that you practice metta at the end of your sitting. And the, the rationale for that is that you have spent a certain amount of time purifying your mind and so Metta is easier to be able to access because you have gone through a purification process. So I being a Goinka meditator at that point I would practice vipassana and then Metta. Vipassana and then Metta. And I remember meeting a monk, quite a, quite an interesting monk living in seclusion deep in one area in the Sagayan Hills. And when he asked me about my practice and I told him how I would go into caves and, and, and outside areas on my own and meditate vipassana and then, and then at the end do Metta. He was terrified and he said, said you must not do this ever again. He said, you're, you're, you're going into areas where there are unseen forces and beings that you do not know. They don't know you. And you start practicing vipassana and you're, you know, you're, you're opening yourself up for a dangerous encounter. And so you have to establish yourself as a peaceful person in spreading goodwill. Before you do that harder practice, you, you have to go to an area and, and first practice meta. To be able to, to show that you're not a threat, that you're sending goodwill, that you're carrying, that you're just doing your own practice. And then that gives you the protection to go into Vipassana. And that that was profound, you know, because that was really like the, you know, not saying Goenka was wrong. These are different environments and different rationales. And it was incredible for me to realize, you know, at that moment that the protected spiritually fortified centers I was going to to that these were never really, you know, survival protection kind of things I had to have in my mind. And when I ventured outside of that, it was kind of taking that same methodology, but I had to apply it in a different way. And I was doing that thanks to Burmese Buddhist thought. I mean I was doing that based to a renunciate who had experience with these kinds of things and was advising me carefully in the way to be safer.
- [77:17]
B
Yes, yes, I completely agree because in that I, you know, if you look at the story of the you know, most renowned m they they usually like do the forest practice. So that is like you know, sending meta to not just like invisible being, like you know, sending met to animals or all the, the living in the forest is like the solid like fast practice before you, you know, you do that like Samata and Vipassana. But like in the meditation like retreat setting. Like we don't need that right for. But for personally for me is that for me that it's really difficult for me to send meta because like I'm not the types of person who naturally kind to other. You know, so it's also like from like different personality. I feel like that you know, the people. For me I think that the best is to set meta at end. The. The end because. And then I feel like more peace myself. Then I can radiate my loving kindness to other people. But the, you know, the people who already have a strong meta like even before the meditation, they have a very good world where other. I think that they can send the you know, meta straight away before doing any other practice.
- [78:29]
A
Yes, I also want to prompt you because before I told that that latter story I had talked about kind of the authentication of a Westerner validating this experience with a supernatural being. So profound for you.
- [78:44]
B
Yes, it is, it is a huge thing like for me because like, you know, like. Well, you know, like let's say that someone in your podcast talk about their past life and you know, like for example, like Beth Apter, like she talked about that past life thing. So I think that Is like really profound for me to listen and it is like feel like that. How to say it's more like crying because like okay, these are real. Because even though like I never experienced that, you know, because how to say it is difficult to believe, you know, because you, you have that thing that, you know, like your childhood has been like physically like let's say that brainwash, you know, a lot of things that, that are not true, you know, and you later, you have to like, you have to learn and differentiate what is the original and what is that. You know, like the brainwashing stuff. Right? So that is with your own judgment and your, your own like ability. And we cannot trust other people, you know, for, for their experience. We have to own our experience. But from hearing from the Western perspective and they experience the kind of thing is that okay, these things are real, then you know, I should be more open and you know, feel like that. Yes, most. I think that the main thing is to make me feel more open and not to like, you know, not to put in the belief that they are just like made up story to make. Is a Buddhism as a religion, you know, or the, the kind of belief that I just, I just want to feel like more open and embrace it and you know, without negative, having that negative feeling toward other people who have that kind of strong belief. They might probably have that, you know, traditional, traditional like, like Buddhist belief and mindset, but that didn't matter. You know, it's like for me that okay, let them believe in that way. I don't have to like, you know, point out anything that, that you know, that is not, you know, like that is not real or that is not, you know, that is like makeup, the story made like by later period. I just want to feel like more open without criticizing other people like their original belief or that you know, what is real. So it makes me feel like more open to what that kind of thing that I never experienced before.
- [81:19]
A
So I'm curious, when you hear a Westerner describe the experience, the direct experience of some of these states and in a way that really aligns with a lot of Burmese Buddhist thought and practice and methodology, is it, is it having that really profound effect on you? Mainly because they are a Westerner and there's a sense of an outsider, a Westerner validating this, that gives a strength and a belief to what has been a local cultural and religious belief. Is it more that or is it more that you're hearing someone with an authentic experience being brave enough to speak it out loud and you're getting faith in you know, no matter who they are, where they're from, just the mere fact that they're saying it out loud, you're, you're getting kind of faith and, and confidence that these things could be real or, or how would you describe, you know, why in particular it's so powerful when you hear Freed Guard, when you hear Jagra, when you hear Steven Smith, when, when you hear Beth Upton, when you hear them describe some of these things directly. What, what is it about the way they're talking that gives you that profound experience that you describe?
- [82:34]
B
I think for the, you know, for the both I think that you know when someone talk about their own personal experience and like that is like huge like impact you know, in the like Buddhist like the way that we have a five person, right? The 5%. One of the percent is like not to lie and the kind of thing but like in the, like you know, in the, if we look at the you know, some of the like how to say that the commentary and like history kind of thing that we have a feeling that some of them are deliberately like changing kind of thing. So and we, we miss the first person experience kind of thing. And so I didn't have that, you know, personal experience but you know, whenever like the people who actually actively meditate and actively like keeping the preset and they are sharing their experience to Allah is like it's, it's like, you know, it's like a big thing for me. And of course there are some like the you know, like some Buddhists just like Burmese like moms, they also share their experience but sometimes it didn't like very like positive way by the like younger generation receive it like they feel like that, you know, they have been brainwashed by the mom. So you know, from the like from the person like outside of the Burmese Buddhist like community say that yeah the right experience is like a huge impact on.
- [84:07]
A
Often as Westerners we come into the practice, there's several things we're looking for. You know, we may be looking for the great wisdom of the universe and, and, and to really understand life in the world. We may be having. Having experienced great trauma and psychological difficulties and wanting to be able to find some kind of peace with that. We may, we may be looking just in general to want to be in a, in an inner peaceful state and, and use this as some kind of psychological tool to kind of grapple with our demons and, and confront ourselves as a way to, to, to become better versions of ourselves. I've met very few Burmese who seem that they have. I don't want to say they've come into the practice because, you know, they're born into it and they've known it their whole lives. But in the way they talk about the practice, I rarely barely hear any of those come up. And this first struck me my first year in Myanmar. I was helping a friend translate a video of a, of a Goenka meditation course. And there was, I still remember this, there was an expression where someone said, you know, during that course, so much came up that I just couldn't take it anymore and I wanted to break down. And she said, I don't understand this. And I thought, oh, she must not be understanding, you know, the, the idioms and the word of speech, like, you know, what it means to break down, what it means when Stu comes up. So I tried to explain, you know, just linguistically what that meant. And she was like, no, I don't understand. Why would you do meditation? Why would you have stuff come up during meditation? Why would you break down during meditation? And this is someone who's attended, you know, dozens of intensive meditation courses. And it just absolutely baffled me that someone could go through an intensive meditation experience and not have these extraordinary psychological battles and confrontations with the self. That was basically my experience 24 7. I spent a lot of years thinking about, trying to unpack that statement and trying to understand it. And, and a lot of it went back to what you said earlier in this conversation, that it's merit based and that I would realize I would go to these courses wanting to move the needle in terms of my inner peace and my, my letting go and my psychological health and all these things, other, other things. And most of the Burmese I was sitting with would talk about, even on intensive courses, would say, oh, we're making so much merit. You know, we're, we're following these precepts and we're not doing this harm and we're, we're adhering to this practice. We're making so much merit. And, and, and, and realizing that that merit's not the only thing. There's also an experience of wanting to, as, as you also said earlier when monks would go into the forest, the meditation center is this microcontroller chasm of instead of being a full time monastic who has studied for years, then goes into the forest for years, you are a lay practitioner who's been to some study groups and then you go to a meditation course and you, you have a meditation experience where you're contemplating all these things that you've studied. But all of this experience is very different from this kind of psychological warfare. And this, you know, breaking down that, that, that that is common with Westerners. And so, so there's, you know, I do think it meets somewhere at the middle like I do. I have spoken to a number of Burmese practitioners who maybe have come into the practice through the doorway of religiosity and merit based and you know, wanting to understand the scriptures and the sutas and be a good Buddhist and everything else. And they have worked so seriously that they, I'm able to converse with them really freely about you know, the, the, the, the, the. These kind of, this kind of deep confrontation with the self and the, the, the, the, the pains that you experience in confronting yourself on a meditation course. They, they get there, you know, they get there through that. And so also we've had guests on the podcast again, you know, Graham White, Steve Smith, Jagra Friedgaard certainly who have come in through the door of, of, of interest in, in gaining higher states. But then realize oh I, I need to learn, I need to do more study, I need to, to look at more of the suttas. I, I need to, I need to, to recognize and celebrate merit as, as part of what I'm doing. And so I do think if you go far enough, I do think these things meet.
- [88:40]
B
So I think that you know, for the like for Bami it's like Buddhist. Like the festival goal of the meditation would be like to get the neighbor na, right? I mean even if like we didn't get the neighbor N at the end, that is like, like we didn't get the neighbor N in this life. That is that the merit we got from meditation will eventually lead to N. So I feel like that we bummies like have a like bigger goal. But of course like you know, they it we still want the wisdom and you know, but after like practicing meditation we can became like more peaceful, less stressful, you know in life that, that kind of thing is like, it's like you know, it's unfortunate events that come and you have to like apply your meditation technique to physically survive the life. So yes, I think that the entry way like entry like initial goal is, is a like a different like for the bum is like we have a like high hope, you know, like for the like Nibiana to get married. But now I became like later like you know, like kind of thing. I feel like I don't want to have like for the high hope and high goal. I just want to be like more peaceful, less Stress, less anxiety and you know, just to practice that instead of of like having to aim that like I'm going to have that Nick Banner this life or in this like seven life or that kind of thing is like a bit, I mean for, for us it's still a bit too much, you know. So I think that we also can learn from the Western people, you know, to just to get that more peaceful life less stressful. I think that is yes, I think that we can learn from the West Western like perspective in viewing.
- [90:34]
A
I've spoken to many people on the podcast who have been Westerners who have been lifelong Democratic, who supported the, the democratic leaders and political prisoners in Burma for generations and have talked about their shock, their dismay, their disappointment, their confusion that, that these people that have sacrificed their whole lives for democracy and freedom, that they were so unsympathetic towards the Rohingya suffering and it seemed, you know, such a contradiction of their life aspirations with where the Rohingya fit into that. And from my point of view, I wasn't. During the 2010s, I was not so engaged with concepts of democracy, human rights. I was very engaged in Buddhism. And so I had a lot of Burmese Buddhist friends that I learned from that inspired me that just beautiful people that, that taught me so much about how to live life. People that lived an ethos of no harm, being careful not to harm animals or insects or not to say a cross word against anyone, really, really just an embodiment in their whole being of radiating, you know, kindness, compassion, wisdom at every level and just, you know, truly inspire inspiring me. And you could see where this is going because in, in many of those cases, not all of them, but in many of them, it was really tragic to hear these people I had admired so much in a domic way, having so little sympathy about the Rohingya. And I can understand politically if, if you have a political opinion, I can understand, I don't have to agree with it, but I can understand if you have an opinion opinion as to what you, what you think are, is, is the, the role of their citizenship in the country and what should be done about it. We could leave that aside. What really depressed me and distressed me was the lack of meta around it and, and people, and these are people who just radiated so much of this Dhamma that the human element element of seeing a suffering people that were being persecuted in their country and, and really not really not understanding how they could, they could generate so much of these beautiful qualities throughout their daily life for years and then it was completely absent towards the Rohingya people in their time of need. And there's so many things we can go into of the misinformation, the propaganda campaigns, the, the political, political climate at the time, the conditioning. I mean all of those, the role of social media and Facebook, we can go into all of that. But at the end of the day, you know, a Buddhist practice, a really pure and genuine Buddhist practice is it's generating these qualities not when it's easy, but when it's hard, you know, and, and, and the absence of these qualities when there's an exception indicates that maybe those qualities were not there to the extent that one hoped. So it was, you know, it was very, it's very tragic for me and I'm, and I want to say this was, you know, certainly not the case with, with. With every friend I had. And there, there were some exceptions, but fewer than I would like to admit. So very sensitive question that I'm, that I'm posing to you. I wonder your thinking, thinking as to how the cultivation of some of these qualities were so absent even with all the propaganda and the conditioning and the role of social media. How they become, they became so absent when there was a such immense horrifying human suffering happening so close by.
- [94:31]
B
I think that the main reason why, that you know, the absence. Why is this absence? I think the most like Buddhist, like Burmese, like in general just want to protect the Buddhism. And I feel like that the majority of the Burmese feel like that after the death of the Buddha, you know, the country that Buddha lived through life and some like the Afghanistan, Pakistan they were, they were once like, you know, the Buddha, the Buddhist country or like the, A lot of, of like the practice were there. So the people like practice that and now you know, if they look at it and see what happened, they, they have a like fear that it will be like that kind of thing will be happening in like Myanmar. And I think that fear is the main reason. And of course like you know, like let's say that if the, you know, people don't practice the Buddhism and anymore the all the statue is just like a statue anything right? So I think that like, like B's mindset is that we have to protect the Buddhism. So by protecting Buddhism it's like just not accepting that you know, people from like different, like religion that that's what like I feel that but like Buddhist like majority Burmese feel that way. So just by not accepting that them, you know, that we are protected and you know, we, we. Let's just Stay in their own, you know, cycle and not, not to let the, you know, people come in. That is that I feel like that most of the Buddhists feel that way and you just have to protect it and you know, we don't want that. You know, like the Buddhism will be like disappear and you know, and it is already like 2,500 years. Like. Right. So there is a very high chance. I mean the Buddhism will be like despair on the earth eventually, but not just because of the, you know, the Muslim or Christian, but it's because of the Buddhist. That's what Buddha said, right? I mean the, the one that who destroy his teaching are his son. That's, that's what he says. So I mean now we can see that correct like Buddhist man and you know, like younger generation don't really, you know, become a Buddhist. They just become more atheist just because the correct mount. So. So yes, I mean that if we really look at the, you know, history and teaching the look at the teaching of the Buddha and it's open to anyone and, and even if you apply that meditation and that is a technique, right that the 32 body parts. So you, you just seeing everyone as a scan belly, dental, like, you know, the kind of like the 32 body part. So there is no such a thing like you know, white or black or like Asian or that kind of thing. You just seeing them like 32 body parts or like the skeleton. So so if you know a practitioner reached that level that they can do skeleton meditation, they, they won't be feel like that or they are like Muslim or they are like Christian or they, they are like, you know, that kind of Indian or like Chinese, they don't have the view. But most of the ordinary, like Buddhist people, they don't really have that you know, that advanced level yet. So we still have that kind of, you know, or we have to protect the Buddhism and that kind of. That's still like the mindset is like very very like still in the very like you know, like traditional mindset, I would say. Yeah, but the thing is that I feel like the future fear of the like the our religion is going to be despair is the main reason why that like we are rejecting the ruin like giving the rights like to into the society. I think that is the main reason.
- [98:22]
A
Yeah, I think that's right. I think you're really onto something that this, this protection of the Sasana has been a major theme in, in in Burmese Buddhist thought and a fear that's built into the whole Buddhist experience. I mean Christianity is not that way. Christianity is, is eternal. The, the concept is eternal Buddhism, you know, the, the concept itself is based in impermanence. This is going to disappear sometime. It is not a question of if, it's a question of when. And so that can create a kind of anxiety and, and, and respond in ways to want to, to, to do things that they feel are going to protect it. And, and as you, but as you say, and as we've had some very enlightened Buddhist, Burmese Buddhist monastics who have come on Mentonia and Ashinkovita, two names that come to mind, have reference that look the, the way we lose Buddhism, the way, the way we lose the Dharma is not to practice. You know, that's, that's, that's how. That's the most important thing. And it, you know, as you're talking about these. In the beginning of your answer, you talked about these kind of edifices, these, these kind of hollow statues that may remain when the practice isn't there. What's the good of the. That it reminds me many years ago when I was in Saen Hills and I, I went to the construction. I was, was visiting when they were doing the massive construction of Sida's new meditation center, which was just gorgeous. I mean, just a massive grounds of, you know, Dhamma halls and places practitioners could stay and everything else. And I was speaking to the rector and, and he was, you know, showing. It was so ornate and so much money had gone into it. Just a beautiful, massive meditation center and a very special, special place. And I said, what meditation are they going to teach? And he looked at me a little embarrassed and he said, I don't know. I don't know what they're going to teach. And so it's like, here's an example of like building, you know, literally spending, you know, millions of dollars to build a meditation center that will look beautiful and, and, and appear great when you don't even really have a technique or a teacher or a practice that's going to be there. So, you know, I think that's almost a metaphor for, for what it is you're saying. And you know, that's from Sidi said. I think is. Couldn't be more ironic or more fitting there. What was it like for you to, in your community to go through those years of the Rohingya pr. The, of the Rohingya crisis?
- [100:46]
B
I was sick, a bit uncomfortable. Like, of course I, you know, I have a sympathy for them, but how to say I don't. I don't I'm not like brave enough, you know, within my community to speak. Speak up against them. And so I think it is really difficult time because like you want to like advocate you know, some you know, but you are scared of your own people attacking you just because that, that kind of like you know, things is like. But they are very like very brave like bummies and who spoke cancer. But very few, you know, very few of them them like spoken about that thing. And now I feel like that you know the. Let's see. Even if like the you know, Buddhism like disappear like like. And that is because of the like our fault like not, not because of the you know, Muslim or Christian or you know, like it is because of the correct man and the you know, our society like we didn't make meditate. So just you know, now I feel like that okay, let's just don't put the blame on other people. Let's just put the blame on ourselves. And to be like. To admit that you know, we bummies has been like really difficult to like you know, put the blame on ourselves or like, or put the like finger on ourselves just you know, to criticize some of the months and you know, that kind of thing. So, so that's, that's what I now I feel that you know, and with the politics is that also the main feature? You know, because like in the past let's say that you know, like last 10 years, 20 years that the. The politics like the, the leader of the country is like not really like they don't put the emphasis on the purifying the dma. They you know, they just want to like use the like, like, like religion, like Buddhist religion as to get the vote or just to get the support of the people. So they, they never like try to purify. And that is a hard part, right, because you have to comfort with the mass and they don't want to do that and you know, so they just want to place the mass and get the mass and other like political sister. So yes, that's unfortunate. Things happen because of all this thing.
- [103:18]
A
Gen Z has become much more atheist. You've credited that to the. Some of the monks that are less than inspiring that are corrupt. I think, you know, I think there's a number of influences. I think that there, there was a more materialist culture in the 2010s as more opportunities brought, you know, more access to things which was largely good and, and, and, and certainly something we don't want to see closed off when it was open everywhere in the world but did kind of bring in access to a wider culture beyond just the mere limits of Buddhism. I mean in some ways there, there was, there's an argument there that Buddhism, Buddhism was being protected, you know, in quotes. Buddhism was being quote unquote protected by the military closing the country off to any other influence and opportunity and possibility that could possibly compete with it. I mean the Bawa Seda has basically said that outright, you know, and that a. A better economy and better opportunities will result in, in fewer practitioners and fewer devotion. But then you have the coup and you have monks that have been supported for generations by families and people who did not necessarily come out siding with them. In some cases quite the opposite. In some cases they were silent definitely exceptions of very brave monks who have, have done the oppos opposite of that. But, but a result of all of these, these happenings pre coup and post coup has been a kind of splintering of the ground beneath us. And you know, we're hearing criticisms of monks, ridicules of you know, so called revered monks that you wouldn't even speak in a whisper of concern about their behavior now being you know, ridiculed in memes and cartoons across social media media. There's a real cleavage going on in terms of what's happening and I think there's, you know, there's several ways to look at this. I mean one is that that we really could be seeing some kind of departure into what we've seen of Buddhism in Myanmar and that that we don't really know where how the ground is going to settle when all the dust is over. Another interpretation is that you know, Myanmar's always been Buddhist. It's, it's gone through a lot of difficulties and whatever difficulties it goes through, you know re establish itself as some kind of Buddhist ident really must change the merit making the religiosity, the ceremonies, the holidays, all those things will, will come back as they always were.
- [105:45]
B
Well the Gen Z, I think that you know, I think that the Gen Z people, I hope that Gen Z people became more secular. I think that they do more meditation instead of like you know, believing into that whatever the belief system, like Buddhist belief system. And I don't really agree that you know like the country is like open and they're like we became less Buddhist. I don't really agree with the idea because if you look at the Thailand, Thailand have a more economically stronger and you know, more advanced than our country and they still have the Buddhist, they still have a strong kind of thing. The, the only Thing that we have to consent is that correct map right. I mean that is happening in every, every like Buddhist country and that is. Should be the main focus. And but for the like, you know, younger generation, I feel like that their priority is that you know to get the, to get the like democracy and the human right. And so they feel that their view of like threatened by the like Buddhist like ideology. They were resistant. So I think that you know, the younger generation need to understand that the, the like original teaching, you know, the Buddha original teaching is never like conflict about the democracy and human rights. The only that the conflict is came that the later, you know, later months that who just like changed the deliberate leadership change the teaching of the like teaching of the Buddha and make it into like more like religious kind of like religion itself. So that is the you know, the conflict is there. So I, I really want that you know, generate like Gen Z to look at that beyond that, you know what the mass and like nuns and like teaching and just look at the original. And that is the way that that you know, we can see they can see that you know, how the Buddha teaching is aligned with the democracy and human right. And you know, I, I wish that they have that opportunity to apply that you know, like in real life and to get the understanding is that there isn't like a conflict. Just you just have to like move you know, more securely and do the meditation and everything will be like it can be in the right direction.
- [108:21]
A
And if we bring this full circle as you're talking about this kind of new way to bring to formulate Burmese Buddhism, to conceptualize it in a healthy way, some of the mindsets and the descriptions that you've heard from our, our guests on this platform, these Western guests that, that have affected you, what do you think they have to offer to this argument? What, what, what ideas and conceptual conceptualizations are they putting out that you think would be very helpful to insert into the Burmese Buddhist public discourse?
- [108:58]
B
I think that you know, I think that it's like very useful to share their like practical application know that how people like deal with the stress anxiety because like the whole the like Buddhist like Burmese Buddhist concept is to get married and to get. And now like, I mean the younger generation like people feel like that is not their goal. Yeah, I mean that that's you know, so to like to practice meditation to begin like more how to say more harmony and more, more like peaceful life, you know, less stress, less anxiety, more focus. And I think that they can share that, you know, their experience and make it example of how we can live our life. And I think that is like the biggest, I think that, you know, thing that we can, we can learn from, you know, Western people and not just to set on the goal like nibana or married things like pressure the core, you know, like we live in the ordinary life and just doing ordinary job and how to be like more ethical, like how to keep like 5% in their everyday life. That, that's like I, that should be like the main goal. So yes, I think that should be like you know, example how people like Western people, like Western Buddhist people, how they maintain the like 5% and very like fast paced world. Right? I mean how they maintain the stress, pressure job, that kind of thing, how they practice help them. That's. I mean it's like we are like traditionally like Buddhist. Like we learn from the man and but the man don't really have that experience like walking and stressful like the kind of like that, you know, we have that in the lay people have it. So I think that is, it is good that we can learn from the Western like meditation teacher who, who apply that in the real life.
- [111:02]
A
When one comes to Burma from that, that the, the newness that it's practiced in, in this environment, I think that's something that really, that, that just tremendously impresses us and the seriousness and the protocols and the, and the study and the care of the preservation, I think that's something that we have a lot to learn from and that, that, and that, that we would, our communities would do very well by, by not just going, you know, head first into one intensive practice after another or you know, interpreting the, the Buddha's words and whatever kind of, you know, new age or flexible carefree style we might like, but seeing the, the rigorous culture of study and adherence behind it, I think that is something that we really benefit from. So I think these are, these are two, you know, inside out, outside in perspectives. I think these are two really really profound and important things to keep in mind and that hopefully this is a kind of learning that can continue to take shape.
- [112:08]
B
I think that I'm really happy, you know, to connect with you and because I've been like long term like listener of the podcast and I'm happy to share my personal experience and yes, I really thank you for what you've done to you know, establishing the better Burma and you know, thank you so much for that.
- [112:45]
A
Thank you for joining us for this meaningful conversation. At Insight Myanmar Podcast. We aim to create a space that embodies the quality of generosity, or dana, as it is known in Pali, the language of the Buddha. Dana refers to the practice of giving freely with a heart of compassion. On our side, we offer these podcast conversations without any barrier or paywall, modeling our work on the Buddhist principle that compassionate giving benefits both the giver and the one who receives the gift. But while these conversations are and will continue to be offered freely, there are nonetheless costs associated with the production. So if you found these conversations of value, we invite you to consider supporting our work. Visit insight myanmar.org donation to learn more about how you can contribute today. Thank you for your generosity, your volition and your attention. And yaranaya da yarana but I Yarana.