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- [00:20]
Podcast Host
Hello. Many of you have been tuning into our conversations for some time and now we'd like the chance to get to tune into you. So we invite you to record a voice message letting us know what's on your mind and send it to us atinfo insight myanmar.org we will keep all communication confidential unless of course, you give us permission to share it, which we will happily do so in a future podcast episode.
- [00:58]
Sam
Sam.
- [02:05]
JC
JC welcome to Insight Myanmar podcast.
- [02:07]
Sam
Well, yeah, thanks for having me. I'm happy to be here. I'm excited to share my experience with you. Well, so yeah, I grew up in Yangon in saying where the Karen community is and then I left to Thailand. But yeah, basically also to find better opportunity and also it was because my dad was already in the Netherlands and then to reunite with him as well in that sense. But yeah, in that time we couldn't because of some complication and then, or yeah, me and my dad, my dad and my mom, they, you know, as in Myanmar, because of the economic people don't usually live together. And then that brought me to continue living in Thailand and I learned about, you know, moving in Thailand actually made me realize that in Burma we have like conflicts and civil war. When I was in Yangon, I did not know that at all. I never heard of that. You know, in our school all the textbooks are propaganda, you know, like how the country is so good and you know, that's what's ingrained in us. And then actually moving to like kind of like open my minds because of, you know, like there are like a lot of refugee camps in Thailand and things like that and that people have to flee the wars. And I think because me being a current as well make me, you know, kind of get a bit angry and then like oh, that a lot of people do not know about this but I'm sure like young people now knows because of the media exposure. But that time and then that actually made me wanted to yeah. Study some form of journalism or something. Then yeah, I was doing this immigrant school called MHEP and where people can get the GED from the U.S. the high school standard diploma. And then from there I was able to go to because then I have the degree. Then I got to able like the diploma. So I got to continue study in Bangkok in communications art, which is quite like the closest to journalism. But yeah, I didn't really end up doing journalism, but I end up doing some form of like communications. And then yeah, then after, after, after my degree then I went back to Burma to you know, to be part of the. The development, the social change, you know, because the. The country got open and, you know, there were a lot of reforming things happening. So, yeah, I felt like it was a good time for me to go back as well, after. After school.
- [05:31]
JC
Great. Yeah. Thank you. There's so much there to explore. So you reference how when you were growing up in Burma, you weren't aware there was a civil war. You weren't aware there was conflict. And it was only when you got to Thailand, that Burmese experience was reframed into understanding what you had come out of and looking at it from a distance, you understood things you couldn't when you were there. I'm curious what it's like being a Karen, though, because we hear from Bamar people who are insulated in Bamar communities with Bamar propaganda and. And are scared of the propaganda that's coming from what the ethnics are doing. But you were from an ethnic community, and the Karens have been fighting the Bamar really, since the beginning. The civil war started in 1948 with the Karens rising up. And so how was it that being in a Karen community in Yangon, you weren't aware of the Karen, Bamar struggles and the wider ethnic struggles until you got to Thailand?
- [06:32]
Sam
Yeah. I remember one thing that whenever I try to sing, like, National Igbam at home, my mom would be like, no, don't sing that. You know, why are you singing that? You know, it's so Burmese. You know, it's so bma. And I'll be like, well, why not? It's so very, you know, empowering, encouraging. So as a kid, I think maybe it's a way of my mom telling me that not something's going on, but I think, like, yeah, nobody really talked about it. You know, I never knew that. Yeah, nobody really talked about it. And then I. Maybe they. The adult, they would talk to each other, but not to the kids. You know, I'm not sure. Maybe, you know, I think in. Your moms are like, oh, you're just a kid, so you don't need to know this stuff. That stuff. You know. But it's only one thing. When I ever tried to. Yeah. Sing the National Burmese at them, then my mom's like, no, don't sing that. Stop. You know, And I was a bit rebel. I was like, no, I'm gonna sing anyway. And. Yeah. And then when I went to Thailand. Yeah. It just. I just. The. I was so. I was surprised. And I was very. I was like, it makes me wonder, while our ethnicity Being oppressed so long, you know, and that also makes me angry, you know, that this is not fair, you know, and then they are not. We don't even know about this, you know, the current themselves, maybe me, like a young. Like a young kid, you know, I'm sure a lot of young people also did not know about that back then, you know, and, yeah, it just makes me feel like, yeah, maybe we don't talk. Maybe the fears, you know, if people talked about it, that because they've been living under the military rules, right, that talking about something outside, like against them, or people know about it, probably not safe, even though maybe it might not put you in danger, because people have been living under this oppression for so long that, like, the, under the, you know, the. The danger or like, if you do something, you. There will be something, even something small, you know, there will be consequences. I think, like, people live in that fear for so long that they don't even dare to speak up on anything anymore, you know, or forgot to speak up and these. Yeah, yeah. It just also made me realize that,
- [09:18]
JC
you know, so, I mean. I mean, that's an enormous sense of a burden of trauma that you're describing and an intergenerational trauma that again, goes back to the late 1940s. It hasn't. It's had a few ceasefires since then, but for the most part it's. It's been pretty consistent. And where you're not just talking about a rash of anger or a fear of something heightening up, but you're talking about a way of living life where you're. You're managing or not managing, you know, this. The sense of trauma that you're. You're just trying to get by. And so did you, as you navigated Koran communities and you were exploring your own anger and your own fear and your own Karen identity. Did. Did you feel like you were touching upon this sense of, like, communal trauma that wasn't being addressed by the wider community?
- [10:11]
Podcast Host
Or.
- [10:12]
JC
How would you describe it?
- [10:14]
Sam
Yeah, I think, in a way. But it's so. I don't know, I have this no identity sometimes, right. The things like I grew up in Yangon for so long and in Thailand, the Karen community are also kind of different, you know, and then you feel like. And then, I don't know, you feel like, which one I belong to. You know, you feel like part of you, you have the responsibility for this kind of community, but at the same time you also feel like for that kind of community. But then also growing up far away from home for so long. Also you. I feel like the identity got a bit fragmented, you know, like, scatter. I feel like I picked up a little piece of here and there also. I feel like part of me also belonged to Burma because my dad is Burmese, actually. But I consider myself more Karen because I grew up in the Karen community and I always been raised in that way. So. Yeah. Part of me also feel like, you know, and then I just take him on as. Yeah, it's a. It's a good question, because I never know where should I stand fully, you know, and part of me feel like what the current has been going through is also my. It's part of me. You know, it's part of my identity that I belong to this current guru. And then we need, like, I feel like, as a responsibility, like, you know, I identify to that. That the trauma as well. Yeah. Where the Burma may have not have experienced as far as the Karen has experienced through the conflict to the civil war.
- [12:14]
JC
Yeah. It reminds me, we did some interviews with some Koran in Minneapolis, where they're in Minnesota. There's a Karen community in the US And Urban Village is kind of a Karen community center that puts on a number of activities and initiatives, and they're speaking with the Karen there. And also those who run the Urban Village, they're describing this sense of third culture that a lot of Karen struggle with, because when they're in Minnesota and they tell people where they're from, you know, many people outside of Asia don't know where Burma is, and they certainly don't know the Karen. They hear Karen, they think, oh, Korea. Or they mishear it, and they don't. And so they're having to describe a marginalized ethnicity in a country that itself is marginalized and left off the map in most people's perceptions. And so then when you're. And when you're a marginalized community who's had to flee a country that you're not welcome due to violence and end up in a third country, that does lead to a lot of identity issues of who one is. And I can't. I've thought about this, particularly with the Karen community, where you have a diaspora that is not just, as you say, not just spread across Thailand and Burma. And let's not forget the, you know, I think 100,000 or so refugees that are in the nine camps along the border, many of whom have not. Not just spent years or decades in those camps, but have actually grown up in those camps and don't know anything outside it. And Then you have the Karen diaspora, places around the world where it's kind of another dynamic to it. So. And within all of this is this. This sense of trauma for the lost Kathoulet, you know, that. And as we're talking now, we're hearing that Manerpla might be falling back into current hands, which is incredible if things can start to shift in that direction. But, you know, the fall of Manerpla in 1995 really just heightened this exodus. And so I imagine that navigating the Karen identity through all of these different geographic places, problems with poverty and asylum and refugee status and collective trauma being dealt with, I imagine this is something that really takes a lot of work.
- [14:29]
Sam
Yes, yes, that's true. I don't know where I belong, specifically with the Koran, the marginalized ethnicities, and then even the marginalized ethnicity is still different in Myanmar and Thailand, as. But, you know, I think, Yes, I think we need to talk about it more, actually. You know, now that talking to you, actually, we just repress it, you know, we're like, when we think about it, get too complex, it get too overwhelming, you know, like this and that. And there are a lot of trauma. And then, you know, and I know that the we, when we repress it, also our body feels it, you know. Yeah. So it's a lot of work to do in that sense. And I hope, you know, we could get. Get through that at one day with bringing back the identity fully. And, you know, that we can take. We can, like, say it firmly, you know, that this is. I belong to this. You know, this is the core of who I am, the identity, the Quran or, you know.
- [15:48]
JC
Yeah, right. You were talking about the anger that you first experienced when you learned the extent of the oppression and the years of persecution on the part of the Bamar military. And that's a through line that I've explored in conversations with other ethnics, is that young people growing up, and there's been several interviews we've done where people have said, you know, when I started to understand the extent of what was happened, all I wanted to do was just grab a gun and go on the front lines and defend my people and fight these, these Bamar that are coming in and doing this to us. And in several of those interviews, people have then gone on to talk about how they've channeled the anger, how they've. How they've understood the anger and worked with it, and then gone to be an academic or an activist or a lobbyist or someone that's trying to Help their community in ways other than just the pure physical fight of it. And so for your part I'm wondering what nature did this anger take on when you started to feel it and how did you work with it and then deal with it?
- [16:50]
Sam
Yes, I think that I went to this migrant school, MSR and then we have like called Burma studies and this was taught by this formal politician, you know, he was also like. He also went to like prison if I remember correctly. So I think that's opened my eyes a lot on Burma issues. What we're struggling, what we are fighting for and the Karen, you know. And then because I was living in this migrant community also I see how the immigrant workers community has to struggle in this oppression also the discrimination, you know, in the Thai, Thailand and how the struggle because of the economy. And then yeah, it makes me want to feel. I think my. That's when I thought like I wanted to tell stories. I wanted to tell the story of people and I want like. And then I thought of journalism, you know and then that's, that's what I was trying to go. But the thing is when I was in uni we didn't really learn about journalism. It's more of marketing or branding, you know. But that's the only subject that I can choose because of the scholarship. You know, there are not a wider subject to choose from. But yeah, I was lucky enough to get the scholarship to do the studies. And then, and then I realized I want a bit more of like a slow soft storytelling. I wasn't really into like breaking news and things like that. And I realized if I'm going to do journalism maybe that's what I have to take on. I tried a few stories with when I interning I would try to intern with some news media. I really liked it and maybe I was thinking of I want to do a bit more like features and stuff like that. So I start working for. Because my goal was to stay to tell people's stories. So I started working with WWF and then we do a lot of feel community stories how them and the nature, you know they also work with a lot of current communities. So the. This current, the current community also live with natures and you know, how does it work with them? You know because I was. Then my ideas changed to protecting the community and the nature, you know, as part of democracy, you know, for them to have the freedom to live with nature. Yeah and then I, and I really liked it because this the thing I wanted to do because I was into taking visual stuff as well, you know, taking pictures and things like that. And then that's when the coup also happened, that I jumped into illustrations when I feel like which one's more important, you know, like, because we couldn't do a lot of work anymore when the coup happened, with the field work, you know, with the organization I worked with, that I jumped into illustrations because there was a need, which makes me angry, angrier, to see that it happened in our time, you know, that this state can happen. So yeah, I, I think so far for me it was just all about storytelling and then. Yeah. And then with different form formats, you know.
- [20:52]
JC
Yeah, right. So before the coup hit, after your university in Bangkok, you had gone back to Myanmar during the transition, as you said in your introduction, you wanted to be a part of this, this, this positive change rolling through Burmese society and to be a part of that, as many came from all over to live in the country during those transition years. And just taking a moment before you got into being an illustrator, before the pandemic and the coup, what was it like now coming back to Burma with the greater sophistication and understanding of the world and understanding of the conflict and being back in Yangon at that time and a greater awareness than when you were young?
- [21:36]
Sam
Yeah, I think I was, I think I was so motivated because I met a lot of like minded people who came back or who like tv, you know, like, you know, it's so empowering. Everybody wants to, like, everybody talks about politics, you know, the change that they want to, just to make the country better. Because we want, we want that, you know, we want the people to be inclusive and then to take care of us, our country again. Because we know that as a being, as a Myanmar person going on the country, we know what it is like, you know, even going to Thailand, you
- [22:16]
JC
know,
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Sam
the look on the face if you, if you say you're from Myanmar, you know, and we, I think we just wanted to take pride again in the opening up, you know, take a chance to live like others, you know. And yeah, I think we, there were a lot of energy, you know, energy of wanted to do something good, wanted to do, be part of something good. And all the NGOs organization who comes in also like to, to be, you know, to, to just lift it up again, but then also make the coup, make us at least me realize that how fragile the democracy is. We couldn't take for granted, you know, that maybe sometimes makes me also think like maybe we didn't make, we didn't do enough work like to, to Build that strong foundation, you know, that it can just one day go away, you know? Yeah. So maybe for me, I did not understand politics enough as well, you know.
- [23:32]
JC
Well, you're a 20something graduate. I mean, is it, is it the job of a 20something graduate to solidify the democracy in our country strong enough so that a coup doesn't happen? You know, it's, I mean, this is Myanmar. It reminds me of what James Rodehauer said on our podcast after the earthquake, that the 7.7 magnitude earthquake that hit Mandalay, that it is not the job of normal civilians to go into an area of rubble and use their bare hands and clean it. This is the job of the state. It's not the job of a 20 something graduate to come back to her country and solidify democracy enough so that it's stable enough to prevent a brutal military takeover. You know, and this is, and it's just so tragic hearing this because your, you know, you and so many people like you care so much about your country and your society in ways I don't see in other places around the world where you're, you, you, you want to, you know, you're so patriotic and wanting to come back and really make your country something to be proud of so that it can stand by those other nations in the world. And the potential is there. We, we know it's there. And hearing this, I just, I'm imagining this like, you know, parallel trajectory of the coup not happening and you, and you know, thousands of people like you doing your work day by day, month by month and year by year, and this different Myanmar than we've ended up with now where, where so many people are still alive. You know, just, just hold that for a moment. So many people have not been tortured and raped and killed and are continuing their professions, their ambitions, their passions, their, you know, which, which are serving them, but are also creating this growing civil society, inclusive society, hopefully that is, is able to grow and to blossom and all of this potential and these things that were there, you know, we know what happened. And now you and so many like you are now scattered around the world as the country devolves into what it is. And so it's, you know, it's an important moment to reflect on, but it's just also very tragic to think of, of, of you and the many people like you that, that were there trying to make the society into something else with your, your passion and your dedication and just the senseless brutality of what this military coup has devolved into it.
- [25:50]
Sam
It really is we all have to reprogram our life again. You know, it's very, I think after the coup, life change.
- [26:00]
JC
Yeah.
- [26:00]
Sam
Like not implant at all, you know, and then we have to pick ourselves again in new places, in new condition and new situation. And it's a lot of work, you know. Yeah. So that we can still strong to resist the coup and you know, the military and while also picking up ourselves again when there are a lot of obstacles along the way, a lot of welcoming and. Yeah, no, it's not easy, you know, the path.
- [26:32]
JC
Yeah, no, it's not. And so because there's been this thread of your own recognition of your anger and the role that that played, I'm wondering also when the coup happened in the years after the coup, this anger that you had realized as a young person you then had to work with and that drove you to be a storyteller, did this anger come back again after 2021? And what form did it take?
- [26:56]
Sam
Yeah, I was so. I was very angry. I was like, wow. I think the. The angriest thing was that realizing a lot of family will be scattered again because my family did, you know, And I think I was very angry about that, actually. Yeah, I think, yeah, at that time I had a boyfriend and because of that, we're no longer together. But it's also made me realize that a lot of family would do that and that it's so sad because family should be together. You know, the people need to be together. And this because of this coup. And. Yeah, I think that was my first, first reaction that, wow, a lot of like friends, family, we. We will be all over, you know, because this will go down, but not in a form where I was not picturing of like a lot of young people would go into the jungle and fight, you know, I just know that the economy would go down and the family will live apart again, you know. And then I was angry about that. Yeah. And. But I was. And I think like people, a lot of people go on streets, you know, as aware, and we contributed a lot of form we could, you know, And I think that time I just learned how to start doing illustrations. And then. And I was like, oh, a lot of people were like, you know, like also posting on social media, on art and stuff like that. And I think that was how I also channel it. You know, I took in an inspiration and I'm like. To be. To. To share online. And then I think that's how it's. My illustrations like took place actually that I. I fully start grabbing on fully on to. And to fill in the gap for visual stuff, because I think it also become dangerous for photographers and journalists to get on the ground. Took, like, footages and then. And. Yeah, yeah. So I saw the opportunity to fill in the gap. And I also want to contribute in some way because I don't know how to do it otherwise, you know.
- [29:29]
JC
Yeah, yeah, right. So we're moving to your journey as an illustrator and learning illustrations and realizing that at this time when the country's been taken away from you and you need to find some way to resist and some way to use your special talents to contribute to the wider whole of wanting to protest against this military oppression that you're turning to art. And in this particular case, illustration. And so illustration means a big. It can mean a lot of things. There's a lot of different ways to illustrate. Tell us the type of illustration that you came to take on and what you wanted to do and portray with this illustration.
- [30:09]
Sam
Yeah, I think I always like visual stuff like photojournalism, and I like illustrations from, like, New York Times. And I don't know, it just give me more. When you look at it, I don't know, it's just different, you know, when there is, like, a gift, it makes the story more alive and you understand a bit more even before reading the stories. So I was actually, when I tried to do illustrations, I think that's how I got inspiration from. And I wanted to learn how to do that. Not specifically thinking of become one, actually. It's just more like, oh, it was COVID 19. I'm like, I need to pick up a hobby, you know, was bored at home, so I got myself an iPad. And then that's how I started learning. And I would say then, now that I worked closely with journalists and organizations, so more on editorial illustrations. That means mostly on articles and reports and, you know, stories.
- [31:19]
JC
Yeah, right. So that was how you got your start. And then as you started to transition from what was hobby. A bit of a hobby, bit of being bored, bit of. We all had different ways of how we got through the pandemic. Some people baked sourdough every day, you know. You tried that too.
- [31:37]
Sam
Yeah, it didn't work out for me.
- [31:39]
JC
It didn't work out so well. Yeah.
- [31:41]
Sam
So I stopped, like, okay. Not. Not my thing, you know.
- [31:44]
JC
So your career as an illustrator was ahead of your career as a baker? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you. You took on the. You. You ended up doing illustration, and that. That continued. And then when the coup happened, you then had this skill to fall Back on. But you know, it's very different to create illustrations for an article where you have an assignment or for a hobby where you're just diddling with something. This is now a life or death stake struggle with the fight for democracy and you know, in very real terms, the friends that we all have on the ground that are in harm's way. So how did you use this new skill in this, in this context of post coup Myanmar?
- [32:23]
Sam
Yes, I. Yeah, I just saw that I need to channel my anger somewhere. You know, like protest was not available anymore. You know, we. We did everything we can. We hit the pan, you know, like everything like silence strike. Right. Some people go to the jungle. Because for me, I was thinking, yeah, I'm not sure, you know, like. Because for me, I know I want art, I want to do. I know how I want to keep doing the storytelling part, you know, that's my also, I think my suited skill. So when like my friend journalist reach out to me then say, hey, we, we have this article but we need visual. And I saw you posted arts and maybe we can work together. You know, I think that's how it started. I was like, wow, like I see the opportunity now to make my dream come true in a way, you know, that I always find this editorial illustrations very inspiring. And I took it on. It was. I felt like it was my calling that time, you know. Yeah, I think like then I think I find it also quite, you know, fulfilling because I feel like the work that I was doing back then, I didn't find it as fulfilling anymore because I felt like this is more like urgency, you know, that can wait, you know. And also we couldn't really do anything anymore on the ground. So for the work, you know, for my job. And it was a lot of pauses, you know. So that's why as a citizen, you know, I see the urgency. So I jumped into it, you know, and then I started to take it like fully, like. And yeah, that's how I got transited, you know.
- [34:31]
JC
Yeah. Were you still in the country when you were making this protest art? And if so, did you ever feel unsafe with the work that you were doing?
- [34:40]
Sam
And I didn't really feel. Not that. Not that I feel. I felt safe. It's not like because I was using my JC name, you know, I'm not sure. But it's not about that. It's more like them could catch you anything, anywhere, even if you walk down the street, you know, it's more of that. And then, then if they look through your phone and they see this, this information that it could be double, you know, like you probably would put in jail or maybe not get out. It was more that I don't find that they would like come to my door and knock on my door. It's more like if they're gonna do like a check, like a family registration check. How many people live in this house and they come in to check and they see some stuff, right. I think that's more dangerous to me. And yeah, also I think I had an. Before actually leaving Myanmar, I have one experience where I got pulled over by the. A truck full of Myanmar police with rifles. They were like, I think my cousin turned the wrong turn. And then they were like, they thought it was some maybe PDF, you know, like. And then they were like running after us and said that, oh, we will shoot you if you don't pull over. And I froze because in my phone I have communication with, you know, journalists on my work and things like that. And if they suspect us that we might have been PDF because we're young, right, you know, so they could do anything, you know, and checking through phone and I was like, oh shoot, I would never leave this country again, you know, and they were just scared because I couldn't do anything right. Once they capture you, they capture you. So. But luckily they were like, oh, if you were with other people, I think they were meaning like the soldiers, the military soldiers, we would have like been worse or like beaten up, you know, and they check and they, they let us go. And we realized, oh yeah, it's just, you know, a wrong turn. We're not because, I mean, not because we saw you and we turned around, you know, it was just a wrong turn. So we turned back and yeah, that was the experience where I felt like it's not safe for anyone. You know, not just because you are activists or you're against them. You might, you could be someone just make a little bit of a wrong something and it's not going to be safer. You couldn't beat an apple like put in jail just doing anything.
- [37:39]
JC
Yeah, well, there's accounts of, you know, 17 year old girls who have liked a Facebook post and gotten arrested for liking the wrong. Literally for liking the wrong Facebook post. Or that you wear a flower in your hair on a certain day and. Or you wear a certain color on a certain day and that's seen to be a support for the democracy movement. And that's enough to get you arrested or to get you, to get you questioned. And so, you know, it's you're right. That it's not just a question of. I mean this is the case in any dictatorship really, is that this is how they use fear. Is that whether you do or whether you don't, then you're still guilty and the state still has the right to do whatever they want to you. And that was no more the case than. And continues to be that way than in Myanmar, where and especially as a young person simply walking down the street is suspect enough.
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Sam
Yeah.
- [38:34]
JC
So eventually you realized that you had to leave.
- [38:36]
Sam
Yes, it was, it became I own. I also realized that when I was in Yangon, as I was young, I never knew about conflict. Right. The civil war. And then. And I was like, I don't, I don't want to live like that, you know, I don't want to because I started to realize I'm like obeying their rules, you know, because if you don't, you will get caught. The fear slowly instilled in you. And I realized I don't want that. I don't, I don't want to live under fears and obeying them. You know, if I had a chance to leave, then I want to leave, you know, and still I don't want to. Yeah, I don't want them to instill fear in me. Because if I will live, then maybe I will live in fears and I will not be able to speak up. I will, I will live, you know, I will survive, but will be in fear. Like every movement I will feel I don't have freedom. And I think I don't want that for myself, you know?
- [39:40]
JC
Yeah, I was, I first started living in Myanmar in 2007, which was long before the transition happened. And it was my only time in life where I lived for an extended period in a society that wasn't free. And I was never at risk. I'm privileged, I'll be the first to admit that. So I was not. Even though I was living in a non free society, I wasn't personally at risk. For me, the greatest risk was that I was going to be deported and I could never come back, which I didn't want to happen. My life was there and my work was there and my friends were there. So I was trying, I was trying to behave in such a way that I wouldn't be deported and living in a climate of fear where there's no freedom. One of the things that I would find in my mind, and I think this is something that you hear a lot in people who live in non free countries, is the inner sensor that that's how the states win, is that they don't have to censor you anymore because you have the inner sensor, which is controlling. And I would find that when I was in a situation where I was having a conversation, I would want to say something, and I would realize that what I was about to say was maybe a little bit risky for that environment. Any other country is free speech.
- [40:50]
Podcast Host
It's fine.
- [40:51]
JC
But in that environment, it was a little risky. And I would find I would feel like I would lose no matter what. If I went ahead and said the thing, I would. The next day I would feel. I would feel like I was being risky, unsafe, like I'm taking chances. Why did I need to say this? There's. There's no reason I needed to put myself risk by saying this. If I didn't say it, then wouldn't things just, you know, what do I really lose by that? If I did say the thing, then the next day I would feel guilty. I would feel like, why did I do this to myself? Why did I take this chance? I didn't need to say this. So I would realize that there was this line where there was no way to be in the middle of that line. I would either feel guilty for having said the thing or cowardly for having not said it. And that's how it got you. And so I'd be in these Gordian knots in the middle of conversations where I was constantly wrestling with myself if I should be courageous and say the thing, but then feel guilty because I'd put myself at risk, or if I should be cowardly and hold the thing in, and then I'm not talking and behaving too carefully. And it was, you know, and I could only imagine the stakes for those who didn't have the kind of privileges as an outsider with a foreign passport would have.
- [42:00]
Sam
Right, right. It's like a story I did for the Kite Tales. This woman wrote. Like. Like, damn if you don't leave the country, and damn if you leave the country. You know, it's like there, you know, if you leave the country and then it's like you have this guilt of leaving, but that if you don't leave also, you are under them, you know, you also can't really do anything, you know, So I think, like, it's in the. That, you know, this or that, you know, like. Yeah.
- [42:31]
JC
Do you feel a sense of survivor's guilt having left?
- [42:34]
Sam
Yeah, yeah. A lot. Some. Yeah. I think I try to not think about it sometimes, but it as also comes, like, I believe in my life. And I forgot about, you know, what's going back home. Because my reality is kind of here now.
- [42:54]
JC
Here in the Netherlands.
- [42:55]
Sam
Yeah. Yes. And then I would be like, enjoying my time and I would see news back home that people got killed or things got bombed, you know, and I was like, oh, wow. Then the guilt comes in, you know, like, oh, what do I do? You know, like, how can I do this? You know, like, there's like an urgency again, you know, like, and, but I, I, I try to talk to, like, people, you know, how do they survive? Or like, hey, I have this guilt, you know, what, what, what do you do? You know, And I think we try to share each other. Guilt sometimes, you know, hey, how do you cope with it? You know, because part of you feel like you also need to live, you know, and part of me also feel like I don't deserve that, you know, because back, back home, people are not living, you know, like they, I feel like I'm so, I'm grateful that I can be here, but a lot of people cannot because of. Yeah, it's just their situation, you know, and sometimes then you feel that guilt because maybe they need it more then you do. Yeah.
- [44:12]
JC
So how do you manage that.
- [44:19]
Sam
Art? Like my, by doing illustration, I feel like I'm contributing, you know, I'm, I'm giving a voice to people that needed to be heard, you know, on the report. Also sometimes talking to friends, you know, I feel like I need someone to understand what I'm going through. Or journaling. Yeah, a lot of, like these mindfulness practices, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [44:51]
JC
I want to get into the art itself again. And because we're an audio medium, we have the disadvantage of not being able to show things to our listeners. But we definitely suggest they check out your artwork and check out your Instagram page, which will be linked to the show notes of this interview. Because you, you can't really ever understand an artist's visual work until you actually see it. But because we're speaking right now and we have the opportunity to describe it, I want to ask you if you can, for our listeners that maybe have never seen your work before, don't know your style or your artistic choices. If you can describe and give some impression or imagery as to, to how your illustrations look.
- [45:35]
Sam
Yes, I work mainly on digital, so all my works are on digital format. And I think whenever. All my illustrations usually accompany with text because I work closely with the journalists and stories and organizations. So I need a brief or some form of text to accompany With. Because more like to bring these stories to life visually. But I think I always try not to show the story literally. I try to balance it between the emotional. The emotional part and the fact that, you know, because if I just show literally, then. Which a photo can do. And I think in illustration, you. That's the power you have. You can. In creating a way that. What would capture the emotion part as well. So I would say, like a bit of between. More of conceptual way.
- [46:53]
JC
Yeah, right. Yeah. Your. Your work seems minimalist to me. The colors are very inviting. The colors bring me into the story, and they seem to shape an indication of what the story could be. But it doesn't fill in all the details. It feels like it calls for some interaction with the audience or the viewer for me to want to bring in my background knowledge and myself into the details that you're not providing, if that makes sense.
- [47:27]
Sam
Yes, yes. I also want it to. Yeah. To have a room to breathe. You know, all that. I think sometimes maybe when I work with people, they want to include everything. Right. And that maybe it's not really my style. I want to leave some room to breathe. You know, I want it to focus on some stuff. So, yes, I think, like, also I wanted to relate to the wider audience, so I feel like if I bring all the details, that it's too. Maybe the wider audience could not capture what it's going on. You know, let's say I try to like the modern illustration, the. Maybe some of the work right now. What. What's going on? You know, so it's also related to that. And then I also want to keep it in my. My style away. And this story all come from, like, a little bit of what I've experienced and then what I've witnessed, you know, and then the story.
- [48:39]
JC
Right. There also seems to be something about it that's both personal and impersonal, that's seeming to have a subject that is an individual that's drawing you in. And yet there's something impersonal about that subject. And also, I would say, both kind of Myanmar and everywhere. It's definitely grounding you in Myanmar, but they're also kind of blocky images that just could be anywhere. So I wonder if these are. This is just the sense I get from it. I wonder if this is intentional on your part.
- [49:12]
Sam
Yeah, yeah. Because I think, like, for me, I. I grew up, like, I think I move a lot, so I think I pick up a lot of style in. Along the way or a bit of cultures along the way. So I Think, like, I'm not very grounded, grounded in the Burmese, how do I say? Culture, you know, so that's why I also want to present that in my work that a bit of personal, a bit of out there, you know, not confined only in this Myanmar culture. Because I think, like, then I want people to connect as well, you know, because if it is, I want someone not from your mind. They look at it and even though they might not understand what's going on, they could feel something, you know? Yeah.
- [50:09]
JC
Have you. You know, that brings up an interesting part of storytelling. And you talked about at the beginning of our interview that storytelling was something that was how you channeled your initial anger. It was you wanted to be a storyteller. And I think if there's one thing that Myanmar needs right now, tremendously, it's good storytelling, whether it's from activists or advocates or the NUG and the political members themselves. And perhaps you can make the argument that art is best suited for that storytelling ability. And so, and you just referenced how now you want to find some way you could bring the Myanmar story to those who don't know it and have them be able to come in and interact with it through your illustrations. And so have you. Are there. Are there comments that you've received that you can share from non Myanmar people who are not so familiar with the Myanmar conflict that have found your illustrations and through your illustrations have been the gateway for them to learn about the wider Myanmar? And are there some comments you've received as to how your illustrations were able to bring them into that story?
- [51:18]
Sam
Yes, I. I would say so. I. I hope so. You know, the thing, I'm also not, like, interactive with people on my. On my social media, but, yeah, I would say so. But I have, like, a lot of friends who've never been to Myanmar and Burma. And then sometimes I also feel like I don't really like to talk about it, Myanmar, because I just, you know, I feel like a lot of things already for me, involved in your mom, my work, you know, everyday news, right? Like my community. So I think with my friends, even when they. They want to know, I would just, I would tell briefly. And then maybe when they see my work, then they would get to know more about it. You know, maybe they get more curious that they were like, oh, I want to know more about this. You know, what. How can I learn more, what kind of movie I can watch, something like that, or what kind of events can I come to? You know, then I think it comes from, through my work, some of them through my work. Right. That maybe if it is only just the news, then they couldn't relate it as much. You know, if it is through artwork, then maybe that feels like. Because art, it's everywhere, you know, and then maybe they could relate more or this is. This is what's happening. Or there is this emotion here. The emotions are universal. You know, everyone has this sadness, loss, you know, revelation and this love. Right. And I think the art can do that. You know, the visual can do that. Then. Then provoke some emotions to lead and lead to some curiosity.
- [53:12]
JC
Yeah, certainly. I'd like to prompt you to speak about one of your illustrations that stands out to you. Something that you were really pleased with, that you. You thought brought a profound message. Something that was difficult to work on, but some illustration we can use as an example through the process of creating it.
- [53:30]
Sam
Yes, I. I think a lot of all. All my artwork, I would say it. They all important to me because it's not easy for me. It's heavy, you know, every single time I read the story, it's like I have to. It's just not like, you know, like fun. Actually, a friend of mine said that. Do you think. Do you ever do anything cute? I was like, no, I don't. You know, I don't do anything cute. It's all like part of, like, conflict or, you know, laws and this thing. And then, yeah, when he asked me that, I was like, good question. You know, maybe I should do something cute. So it's not always heavy, you know. And then I think when it's heavy, also sometimes I need a lot of. A lot of break because it can become exhausted. Because I also want to capture the truth, you know, that dignify not victimized, you know, because I don't like that. Because, yeah, I want it to. The people that gone through had some. They are people, you know, they are because of the military. It's. That's the ex. They are experienced in this. You know, nobody wants to become a refugee. Nobody wants to flee their home, you know, and they all have the dignity. They actually built their life, you know, to stay where they are. So. Yes. Back to your question. Which one? I think recently there was something I revisited again was about. Actually I did for the kil. It's about the. How the mother. Like mothers have to go fleet. And then especially the pregnant woman. They lose children, you know. And then actually that makes me. Because I was looking to this because there was this exhibition about the gender violence. And then I need to submit some illustration to exhibit and then that made me revisit that because that story was also hard for me to make because I couldn't get through the story because it just me realizing how the woman has to go through this jungle fleeing in war and lost the twin, you know, and the twin. Twin is actually a good thing in Myanmar, if you pregnant with the twin, you'll be like, wow, you know, what a blessing, you know. So I think for her to lose twin, it must be hard. And that journalist was just who wrote the story, like explained this hardship. And then it also made me realize of the Karen fleeing the country. And I met these Karen refugees. They have to go through the hardship, you know, to when they give birth in the jungle, you know, and then that they have to come through all these. Yeah, it makes me so emotional, you know, and maybe also just being a woman, that how it. Just how hard already it is to be a woman and fleeing, you know, and we have this period and you know, all the things that it's not safe to be in the jungle with, you know, it's not comfortable. And then there's. Plus you get pregnant, you have to give birth in the jungle where no hygiene essentials, you know. That made me think about the babies, you know, that maybe they wanted it, you know, and then connected to that. Yeah, that was the hardest stories to do because the losses of mothers. But I'm proud of the peace because. Because I think I don't show the mother as a victim, but who. Someone who go through the hardship, you know, but also heavy feeling going through this. So I think I put some like orange color at the background and just in this darkness, you know, like walking through. Why being pregnant. Yeah. Yeah. So I. Yeah, but every piece is all important to me, you know, because they all very special stories. Yeah,
- [58:16]
JC
it's profound and it makes. It makes me think of a couple of things. One is I. I'm thinking of our humanitarian mission of our organization Better Burma. And one of the initiatives that we've worked on over the past years are when you look at the IDP camps and those that are displaced and that are fleeing, providing the usual, you know, medicine, food, shelter, etc. As we can, but then also the dignity kits to the young girls. And I think this is. That, you know, this is a modest culture. This. This is a. And having something that personal at that time of age that. That is, you know, even in. In developed countries can be an awkward or uncomfortable thing to. To talk about and to take care of and. And with all of these conditions and all this displacement, this is an added thing that if, if you're not female, then you're, you're not aware of, or you might not be aware of this, this need that goes along with everything else and, and especially when it comes, comes along with these kind of cultural conditionings of discomfort and everything. And then when you're then on top of that talking about pregnancy, talking about fleeing through jungles, it's, you know, it's a whole other layer and it's something that I think is, is for, for females is obviously a consideration and a constant consideration. But being a man and for men, with all the other things going on, sometimes we can forget about or not pay attention to, neglect those, all of those details that go with it. And it's so important to draw attention to that and so important to support it through humanitarian efforts as well, to remember that part of it, along with the food and the water and the shelter and the medicine and everything else. But it also, what you're saying also reminds me of a Bamar friend of mine who was a PDF and spent time with the KNU and the Karen and was describing a moment where his perception really changed and he was talking to someone in some village asking why they don't have their, their farms bigger, why they don't have, trying to make schools that are more permanent and can have bigger class sizes and hospitals and the like. And the response was that as soon as we start to build something that's a little more permanent, a little bigger, we're just inviting the Bamar army to attack us. And so, you know, to think of a society, and again, not just now, but going back generations, to think of a society that is living in such a, over such a cloud of fear and terror and trauma that if they're going to take more permanent steps to look after themselves and to provide services that are really going to help their community, that's actually going to make them a target, which is going to make them more likely to be hit and more likely to have loss. And so they're purposely not able to look at these long term, more lasting solutions because that's more dangerous for them. You know, this is the definition of just a society that is, is not, that is just completely unable despite having the resources and the dedication and the service and everything else, but because of the terror being inflicted on them, they're unable to be able to look after one another and set up a society that is supportive because of this military shadow that's hanging over them. And, you know, and that's been generational. That's been for years. But, you know, in the years after the coup, it's in the story that you're describing. It's just a trauma that has now become exacerbated to, you know, acute levels of suffering.
- [61:56]
Sam
Yeah, yeah. I cannot imagine that this will be years long. And then people need stability, you know, and then someone always have to flee. It's a lot of. But emotional burden. And then in that case, also need to make family, raise children, you know, on top of everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [62:21]
JC
Right. And so in this example you gave of this one story you illustrated, and this goes for the other illustrations you do. You're reading a complex story with lots of context. Heavy, you say you don't work with cute stuff. This is heavy stuff that is drawing upon all of your personal resources to have to manage. And your job is to produce one generally minimalist illustration that's just giving this window or this sense into this incredibly emotional and moving story. So what's your process in wading through that complexity and just finding one window to bring the viewer into?
- [63:02]
Sam
Yeah, I think I need to feel it, you know, like. And so it's so important to me that what I feel. And then it's also a lot of inspiration. I. I just don't want to. Yeah. So it's complex, you know, just looking at that blank paper and then how do I put this together? Right. It's not an easy process. I wish. It's just like, hey, create the story, you know? Yeah. But I think for me, I read other illustrators work. I look at through other illustrator works who usually also work on this. A bit more heavy stories and working on conflict and how do they portray these heavy stories, you know, And I think I take inspiration from them. And then I look and then. Yeah. And also usually it's not always easy as well, because sometimes you feel like it's not because nobody's really working on Burma. Right. And it's. Sometimes it can be quite different as well. People maybe work more online. Mental health stuff or more like maybe if I feel like a lot of illustrators work on the US So a lot of US issues, so not a lot on conflicts. And, you know, how the. Yeah. The refugee. And then especially the refugees from Southeast Asia or the developing countries like Myanmar. So I think I have to find my. The blend in there. Like, what is the mental or the emotions that I want to portray, but also bring from my. What I feel from this piece of stories and what elements I want to include, you know, do I want to make sure that it's. Show that it's in the conflict or it's the Karen woman or it's an ethnic or, you know. Yeah. So these pieces has to come through together.
- [65:24]
JC
Yeah, right. Yeah, I see. I imagine there must be a part of you that does look forward to a day where maybe you don't do cutesy art related to Burma, but you're able to do some type of art that doesn't have to be conflict based. There's so much more in the culture that's so beautiful and so wonderful to share. And I imagine as an illustrator, sometimes you. You must really want to get to some of those parts of your culture and your people.
- [65:52]
Sam
Yeah, maybe one day. You know, I feel like every time I do a piece I'm like, I need a break, you know, like, I need, I need to do some other stuff, you know, like go live. But yeah, in the future I want to do it because I. I think I also believe in news media. You know, I want the news media in Myanmar to develop and to reach one day like other international news media where we can also talk about culture stuff. We can also write about lifestyle, health, you know, how do we live, you know, nature, you know, a bit more, share a bit more about our culture in a lighter way, you know, than just conflict. But now it's. That is the attention is going and then we can also draw on like a bit happy stuff, you know, like culture. Yeah. As you said, you know, a bit lighter stories to share.
- [66:50]
JC
So then moving on with your journey, you left Myanmar sometime after the coup and ultimately found your way in France and now in Netherlands and Amsterdam, where we're talking now. Talking a bit as far as you're able to and safe about what brought you over to Europe and how your experience has been here.
- [67:12]
Sam
Yeah, I would say it's not easy navigating immigration stuff, you know, now I'm. I've been here in Europe for over three years now and I'm still navigating immigration. I'm not settled yet at all. So I think that part, it's really taxing on my mental health sometimes mentally, because part of me, I just want to settle and then move on and continue doing what I can do, you know. But also at the same time, I think I'm privileged enough to be here. But also I think living here makes me feel I can participate in other awareness reasons, you know, like from Myanmar stuff. Maybe me being here, the people that I connected to, I hope they can learn something about Myanmar because Not a lot of people know about Myanmar. Whenever I speak to someone, they're like, where are you from? Myanmar. And then they'll be like, where Beside Thailand. Oh, Thailand. Beside Thailand, yeah. Like I literally need to pull a map and show them, you know. And then what you do an illustrator and then, oh, what do you illustrate? So yeah, I hope asking me. They asking me question. I hope they will also learn about Miyamo in something, you know, that what maybe I could raise awareness even through a little bit of interaction. Yeah.
- [68:51]
JC
And as far as you're able to share, what have you been doing in France and now Netherlands?
- [68:58]
Sam
I just draw. You know, in France I was in art school, so I was doing art, learned a little bit about art, but my family lives in the Netherlands, so I moved here and then waiting for residency. Now I've applied for asylum. So that also gave me a lot of limitation in terms of what I can do and what I cannot. But I still like drawing. I still do illustrations. But I would say less than the beginning maybe because in the beginning it was more like attention. Right. Like a lot of news media, like wanted to write about Myanmar, but maybe a bit less now, so. But whenever there is, then I will do illustrations.
- [69:50]
JC
Yes, you referenced how because you didn't just live in Burmese society, your illustrations also carry inspiration and influence from outside of Myanmar. And you referenced how some of you get some inspiration by looking at other illustrators who work on images for art based on articles. But I'm wondering if you have, because you do have this international sensibility and development, if there are other particular styles or artists that you were particularly influenced by.
- [70:25]
Sam
I think I take from like every little things. I think also my illustration sometimes changes depends on where like I wanted. I think like when you look back my old illustration, my now you can see the style mill changed a bit. And to be honest, I don't have artistic skill, you know, I did not, I did not learn like I don't know how to draw something realistic. But then this is also I. So I was not confident to become illustrator in the beginning. But then when I study like other illustrators, it's not about knowing how to draw realistically, it's about how to bring ideas to visually, you know. So actually it's not about drawing, but how do you how your visual is showing? And so I think yeah, I don't really have particular illustrators that I have follow or like picked up on. But I always, I think I always find something interesting in any illustrate, but I think mainly minimalistic and And a bit. Some. Some bold colors or people worked on some. Some stuff. I think maybe I can name some. Maybe like Sarah Wong. I know that she gave me a lot of inspiration in her illustrations. Bringing the emotions, complex emotions. And then there is, like, Santicon William. She's. He's a Brazilian illustrator. But he. He. He died. He passed away. I found out. I was so sad because I was actually, like, taking his class in, like, domestica. And I was like, oh, my God, he's so cool. And then everyone's like, yeah, Itai, you know? Yeah. So I think I pick. I find a lot there. The styles from different illustrators, and then also the limitation of my own skill, you know? Yeah. And then, like, there are things that they do that I'm like, no, I can't do that, you know? Yeah. Yeah.
- [72:40]
JC
Now, we talked about storytelling and about the role that art plays in it in general. And you've talked about how you have channeled your anger into producing art as a means of resistance. And so I want to ask you about how you feel, what you feel the importance is of art as a medium, as a tool of protest and as a means of resisting the military alongside, you know, actual weapons and diplomatic or political or advocacy or traditional grassroots activism. What is the unique ability and role that art plays in this?
- [73:14]
Sam
Yeah, I think, like, art speaks to everyone, you know, I think you don't really need languages, explanation, or you look. I think we all surrounded by visual, you know, like art or yao, that we don't even realize. So I think art is something very vivid for people. It can be very provoking. So I think. And it can show that what this person is feeling, you know, And I think for us to do art in resistance can tell the world that we are not backing down, even though we might be trapped physically, but our emotions are not. You know, we are still angry, we are still resistant. We are sad. We lost things, you know, we're going through this, you know, So I think in art, it's just. It's a mean of allowed voids in a way that expressing when people far away cannot hear or see or witness, you know, or. And they can feel or they can understand what the people feeling, what the people going through.
- [74:39]
JC
Right. And you referenced that you did illustrations for Kite Tales, among many others. But Kite Tales is quite a unique project. And we had Thin Lewin as who's behind Kite Tales. We had her as a guest previous on our podcast to invite listeners to check that out and hear her story and how that fits into Kite Tales. But for those listeners who haven't heard that, can you tell us what Kite Tales is and. And the nature of your involvement and how you felt about the project?
- [75:05]
Sam
Yeah, I knew mateng like over 10 years ago, you know, so she. Yeah, she's amazing and she was my boss back then when I was interning at her news media. And yeah, I think then the. The kite tails initially found it to, you know, travel through Myanmar. The culture that people have not have talked about this unsung heroes, you know, these ordinary people stories. And it. I think it's quite ordinary that it's something needed in the country that people haven't established and I think because of the coup, then they turn this project around because you can't really travel anymore. And then I think the Kiteil step in to help to keep telling the story of the ordinary people who are fleeing and through the lens of journalists, you know, and because the kitel is also in a way in an art form. So I wanted to use the illustrations as accompany the stories. So I really like it because I feel like it also gave me opportunity to keep expressing as myself an illustrator and you know, as Myanmar who have fled the. The coup, who is still resisting the coup in a way then. Yeah, yeah. So I think it's. Yeah, it's something needed, you know, and to say because it's not just like ordinary news reports where fats and fetual and this is like a story, you know, it's very personal and it's very emotion, full emotion as well. It's like a diaries, you know, it's like a diaries, you know. So like reading is. Yeah, so it's. Yeah, it's not like the news then, you know, like the typical news. Yeah, so it's. I think it just, you know, it's also good to like. Thanks Q for giving me the space to share. You know, it's not only me sharing because it's also made me reflect as well as like illustrator, like doing the work on Myanmar because sometimes I just go, go and then don't really reflect, you know, and then it's also. This is also a chance for me to reflect as well. Yeah, so.
- [77:45]
JC
Well, this is also storytelling.
- [77:46]
Sam
Yeah, true, true. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, and. Yeah, and then to also keep sharing, giving spotlight to Myanmar in different way, different angles. Right. Not just, not just a spirit specific group of fields or anything. Yeah, yeah. As I mentioned, thanks for giving me a space to share and then I think this, I will keep doing this for sure, but I'm not sure what would change in the future as I like waiting for the residency and things like that. But yeah, I just want to say that you know I yeah I wish don't forget about Myanmar and then yeah I will also try to do my best from here and illustrations also. It's my way of connecting and since I cannot be there physically and it's a way of me stay contributing. Yeah.
- [79:10]
Podcast Host
I hope you enjoyed today's show at Insight Myanmar Podcast. We're committed to keeping all of our content freely available so that anyone, anywhere, anytime can learn more about what's happening in Myanmar. But to continue to offer this product freely into the future, we need to find some pathway towards sustainability. And to this end, we've launched a unique line of merchandise that not only supports our mission, but also celebrates the incredible talent of contemporary Burmese artists. This online shop features a Burma themed collection of T shirts, hoodies, caps, bags and more, all designed to reflect the culture and creativity of Myanmar. So we invite you to take a moment to explore the connection and find your new favorite piece by visiting the Fundraising shop tab@betterbruma.org and consider placing your order today. Together, we hope that we can make a difference while keeping this platform accessible to all into the future. And for those who are keen to give a donation, please do so by visiting insight myanmar.org donation for more information
- [80:11]
JC
on how to help SA.
- [80:39]
Sam
By.