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- [00:16]
A
Hi there and thanks for listening. If you're enjoying our podcast and have a recommendation about someone you think we should have on to share their voice and journey with the world, by all means, let us know. It could be an aid worker, monastic, author, journalist, doctor, resistance leader. Really anyone with some tie or another to the ongoing situation in Myanmar or anything related to its history or culture. To offer up a name, go to our website insight myanmar.org and let us know. But for now, just sit back and take a listen to today's episode. Today we are joined by Bilal Hassan who can be found online via his Instagram handle, my stat. Mista Paki. Yes, you can correct my pronunciation.
- [02:10]
B
No, no, you got it. Perfect. Perfect.
- [02:12]
A
Okay, okay, we'll, we'll link that in the show. Notes and Belial recently traveled through Burma and began noticing connections that many Pakistanis may not know about anymore. At least these are Urdu speaking families in Yangon, old South Asian Muslim communities, mosques that are tied to Gujarati and Tamil roots, even Burmese dishes that found their way into Karachi. And so through his trip, it became a way to look at a much bigger history between Burma and South Asia. And it also raises as we'll get into some difficult questions about Muslim identity in Myanmar today, especially when the subject turns to Rohingya. And I think this is a really interesting story, story to cover because one of the things we often try to do on this platform is illustrate how many different Myanmars there are, how many different layers are coexisting and when one is coming through one layer of perspective, the ones that are missed. And so I think this, the prism through your trip is, is giving us and giving our audience a wider perspective and understanding of these multiple Myanmars that exist. So with that introduction, I thank you so much for joining us and having the conversation that follows.
- [03:19]
B
Thank you so much for having me.
- [03:22]
A
So before we get into what you actually saw there when you were on your trip, I want to start with the decision to go in the first place. Burma isn't exactly an obvious destination for a Pakistani traveler right now or perhaps for any traveler right now, especially with the conflict, the restrictions, the ways that most people think about Myanmar today. And so what was it for you? Was Burma somewhere you'd always been curious about or was there a particular story or historical connection that made you want to go and see for yourself?
- [03:51]
B
I was curious about it because, because there's a lot of, because I live in Karachi and Karachi is like the largest city in Pakistan. And there's a lot of influence, subtle influences from Burma over here. But we never really questioned, why are they here? Like, there's a lot of food that we eat. Like, we have this dish. It's called khao sui. And in khao sui, and everyone, when you ask them, where does it come from? They're like, oh, it's Burmese. It came from Burma. And you're like, okay, but who went to Burma? If you ask them that, they're like, oh, someone. Maybe my grandfather. But you're like, why did your grandfather go there? Why did he end up back in Karachi? It's like, those answers. Those answers aren't there. And there's a lot of family names who have, like. They have, like, Burmawala, Rangoonwala, Mandalaywala. And these are very, like, you know, these are places in Burma. But when you ask the people about the heritage, the history, it's like there's this missing piece of history, which we don't have. So, like, I was very. Just curious about it, and I was like, you know what? I feel like I should go. And I think the catalyst for me was, like, when this friend of mine, he wrote a book, Sam Darrymple, it's called, like, the. The Five Partitions of South Asia, Shattered Lands. And. And when I read the. The chapter on Burma, I was like, wait. And now, like, for context, for the aud of. People don't realize this or don't know, but the first partition that took place in South Asia was the breakup of British India and Burma. Like, Burma today, as we know it, is politically and geographically in Southeast Asia. But back in history, it was very much a part of British India. And so when that partition happened, that's where everything starts. And that's where you start to learn that, oh, there was connection over there. And when you go to Yangon, it literally feels like. It feels like both South Asia and Southeast Asia, but at the same time, neither of them. You get what I'm saying? It's. It's. It's. It's its own thing. It literally feels like the point where South Asia and Southeast Asia meet. So, yeah, like, that's literally why I went. It was just basic curiosity, trying to find a connection and see why and how we have so many Burmese influences there. And I think I did get a vague. I think I got a pretty detailed answer on why it happened.
- [06:29]
A
It's so interesting. And I can appreciate, coming from Pakistan or Pakistan, India, where the consequences and implications of the partition happening after World War II plays such a dramatic and important part in history that seeing I've Never thought of it that way because I've been so much more based in Burma. I've just. I've seen what happened in. With the separation from British India from more of a Burmese perspective of what then later happened with the nationalist movement and everything else. But I can. I could see sitting in Pakistan, how that could. That. That was seen as. As a. As you put it, as a first partition. So that's really interesting.
- [07:05]
B
Exactly. Because. Because we got our, like, independence in 1947, but even our history books, and even the history books in India never mentioned that in 1937, 36, like 10 years before our partition, actually, British India and Burma broke up. That was the first partition. And another thing that we don't mention much is that Yangon Rangoon back then was the richest city in the world. It was New York before it was New York. And a lot of our forefathers from South Asia, from present day Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, actually went to Rangoon to make money. It's a part of our culture. There's a very popular Bollywood song. All of us know it. All of us know that song by heart. It's called Meerpiya Ghe Rangoon, which literally translates to like, my beloved went to Rangoon and called me from there. Now the question is, why did your beloved. Why did your lover go to Rangoon? Why was he calling you from there? Now, the context, when you read into it, you're like, of course it makes sense. He went to Rangoon because he was a businessman. Rangoon was the boomtown. He went there to make money because. And this is an old song. This is, like, from, like, the 30s, the 40s. And now you understand the context. And again, our history books make no mention of this. It's not there, but, like, subtly at the back in pop culture, it's very much there. Like, we kind of know this. Like, there's a very popular actress from Bollywood. Her name's Helen. And Helen, like, she's. She's. She's so popular. Like, some of the biggest songs that we know, she. She danced on those songs. But Helen, when you. In her interview, she talks about. She's like, oh, yeah, my family's from Burma. Oh, yeah, we came from Burma. And now you kind of discover. You're like, oh, what was the family doing there? How did she come then? Now kind of makes sense, which we'll talk about more in detail later. Yeah.
- [08:59]
A
And to put that in the context of the years that you're talking, I mean, it's so interesting to hear this reference of the people that, that are coming of those that are coming from what's now Pakistan to, to make their life and their livelihood and their future there. But I mean, just to put another context, you then have, you know, there was, there was a huge Scottish presence. You know, the Scots at that time were, were big in business. And so Burma was, was very much on, on their radar. You know, Christian missionaries, especially American Christian missionaries. There was, we've done episodes on, on the role that Christian missionaries had in. There's, you know, entire ethnic communities that, whose Christian identity is coming from the missionaries there were there at the time. And then in, you know what, in my own personal story, what brought me to Burma was The grandfather of S.N. goenka, who was Indian coming to, coming to Burma and making a business. And then you know, two generations later you have an a Burmese born Indian SN Goenka, who learns a meditation technique, spreads it around the world. And you know, but it was, it was because of the, put that in context. It was because of the opening that you're talking about that his grandfather left India to find a future in Burma. So all of these things are coming together in this cosmopolitan place you're speaking of. And I think it's also important to reference as, as you say that it was very much part of South Asia at the time. We have to go back a little further and realize that it was actually forcibly brought into South Asia.
- [10:24]
B
Exactly.
- [10:24]
A
Because it was after, you know, three stages of the British annex that that opened the doors to that wider access and especially the, the greater British colonial India at the time, which now includes Pakistan, that brought that in. So it's kind of had this shift of being, you know, of, of of of having nominal contacts before. It had contacts with like Persia. I mean there's a book on like ancient Persian Burmese relations which is incredible. So it had, it had access of like trade and other kinds of things. But it was the British, the British colonization that actually brought it into South Asia from not being there. And then it was the British leaving that or you know, then 1936 as you're saying. And then when the British left that it slipped more back into Southeast Asia perhaps.
- [11:09]
B
Exactly, exactly. And you feel that you very much feel like in, in the modern day Burmese identity. Like, and I'm going to speak as an outsider, like I obviously I do not want to speak for them, but like my observation as a fly on the wall is that you feel as if even the people of Myanmar they feel like they belong to either of those worlds that they're their own thing. And you feel those influences. Like, as a South Asian man going over there, I think I've been all over Southeast Asia, all over in the current state, in Myanmar also, which is very difficult. I still felt very much at home also, if that makes any sense. Like, which, like, I felt like I could belong over here. I felt like I blend in also because it's such a diverse country. But, like, likewise, if I go into any other Southeast Asian country, like in Thailand, Indonesia, no, it's not the same. In Myanmar, Burma, it's different. Like, you kind of. You do feel like there's. You do feel this familiarity, if that's the word that I want to say.
- [12:26]
A
Yeah. And this is where those layers come in that I think are so important because again, I came into Myanmar practicing vipassana meditation and so being interested in learning the Buddhist teachings. And through that layer, I felt such a level of comfort and connection. But then I'll hear people that come in that are, you know, that are. That are coming into Christian communities or. Or doing other types of work, and. And they, you know, through their involvement, because there are so many layers that are coexisting, they're able to kind of find their niche and to be comfortable. But you know what's so remarkable is that I found is. Is how little these layers interact and how much you could be in one layer and really just not even see the coexistence of all the multiple things happening sometimes right outside the door.
- [13:07]
B
That's. That's actually one great thing you touched upon. I noticed that because, like, okay, like, the minute I got to Myanmar, so I just, like. I think I put up a story or something. And then through the Internet, like, the Internet doing its thing, someone basically messaged me, whose family settled in Karachi. They're like, oh, wait, I have a cousin whose entire family lives in Yangon. And like, you wait, let me just drop him a message and everything, and he'll come and check on you. And this cousin basically came and hung out with me and. But all of the friends and all the people that hung out with me, they were all of South Asian background. The group was just all south. So basically they were in their own silo, in their own world. And we went all around Yangon. We partied, we went to farmlands and everything, all that stuff. It was an entire day, an entire night, which we hung out. But I felt like these people were in their own world, in their own little silo. And I'd ask them questions. I was like, okay, there's so many different nationalities, so many different. Do you have friends outside? They're like. Their answers would be very carefully answered, but what they would say is that yeah, we do in school, in university, but kind of I got the notion that oh no, no, everyone hangs out with their own kind of thing. So that's what I inferred.
- [14:27]
A
Yeah, that's generally true. I mean there are changes, kind of unprecedented changes happening with generation Z. But historically that's been case. And I mean I, I remember there was this great Nepali restaurant I used to go to that was like literally home cooked food. Like it was their home. And then they had like a storefront and you know, it was, it was just like such authentic Nepali food. And as I got to know them, it was like they were like, they were, they were, they were 100 Nepali. But they had lived in Myanmar for generations. The younger generations had never been to Nepal. But they, they married within with other Nepalese in the community. They practiced, they spoke whatever their ethnic language was in Nepal. The food, they, the dress they wor, the way they practice religion, everything was. And Nepali Buddhism being very different from Burmese Buddhism. Everything that they did, every, every part of their Nepali identity, of their identity as a Nepali was what you would find largely if you went to Nepal. Even though, you know, many of them had actually never been to Nepal. But they were in Scot, they were living in Yangon, interacting as they did with the education, the business, the infrastructure and the neighbors and such. But they were ensconced completely in a Nepali community.
- [15:35]
B
This is exactly, exactly how I like these guys were. Some of them spoke Urdu, which was very surprising for me. I did not expect to be conversing in Urdu with someone in Yangon. But like more than half of them spoke and I was like, how do you speak it? They're like, oh, my grandfather or someone came from Pakistan or India. And we understand it. One of them actually, he was a lungi salesman. He used to sell lungis and everything. But when you dig a bit deeper and everything into the identity, all of them were married to South Asians. All of them like, like someone of South Asian background. And, and if you like, they all lived in the downtown area. And when you go to the downtown area of Yangon, it's very much just like if there's a street, there's only the one particular ethnic group will be living there. It's not like they're mixing or anything. And that's what I noticed. I was like, okay, these are very predominant Muslim areas. Like I would not see. Yes, Yangon is a very diverse, cosmopolitan city, but I feel like everyone lives parallel lives. Like they don't like kind of mix. That's what my inference was, even with these guys, like how we hung out.
- [16:44]
A
So, yeah, it's very historically true. And I think that is there are, as I say, real changes happening in the wake of the transition and the coup and Gen Z. But, you know, how widespread they are, I think is still remains to be seen. But you know, getting to that Urdu, it makes sense that there's that presence there because during the colonial period you had huge numbers of South Asian Muslims that were moving to Rangoon from places like Gujarat, Bombay, North India and Urdu, as well as Hindustani. They became part of the city's Muslim social world alongside Tamil, Gujarati and Burmese. And, and so I think when, when I was looking at your reaction as, as you shared it about being able to speak Urdu and you, you know, you also, you, you joke that you met someone in Yangon who's was, was cleaner and better than your, your friends back home, but you said something interesting with that, that what hit you emotionally was being able to read walls, signs, even poetry in a place that you expected to feel foreign. So can you talk about what kind of, what the role of language is in identity and personality and community and how it connected you in Myanmar?
- [17:50]
B
It's, it's so interesting. So like, I had a friend, like, like a, a friend from the photojournalist community. So like, just for background, my friend, my friend was like Burmese, Buddhist. Burmese. And he was showing me around town and showed me all these beautiful temples, these beautiful golden pagoda. Everything was very nice. You went to the Kondaugi Lake. We had lunch at the Rangoon Tea House. It was the perfect tour. And he asked me specifically, he's like, is there anything, one particular thing you want to see? He's like, you haven't asked for anything. I was like, I do want to see one thing. He's like, what is it? I was like, I want to go to the shrine of Badr Shah Zafar. And he's like, why do you want to go there? Like, he's like, it's, it's, it's like, he's like, I've shown you so many beautiful things. Why do you want to specifically go there? I was like, I was like, no, there's a historical connection. I was like, he was the last Mughal emperor and like the Mughals ruled over present day Pakistan and India. And like, there's a lot of beautiful Mughal monuments over here. So I was like, I think it'll be a way to connect the history, connect the dots, if that makes any sense. So, like. And I. He was still so puzzled. He's like, why do you want to see that? Like, we've seen Sule Pagoda, we've seen Shui D. And honestly, when you get there, it is a very nondescript kind of place. It's not like, the most spectacular site in Myanmar, but it is, at the end of the day, the tomb of the last Mughal emperor. The last Mughal emperor lived there. So I went there and everything, and it was so interesting that on the walls, everything was written in Urdu. I could read it. And. And again, my friend was like. He's like, you're spending way too much time in this random place. I was like, you don't unders. I was like, you don't understand. It's like, it's surreal for me that I'm right now over here and I can read everything. And that Mughal emperor, he was famous for writing poetry and writing very sad poetry. That's what he used to write. So, like, we kind of read those poems in school. And it's surreal that, like, I went to school in Karachi, but I'm reading all that poetry here on the walls of Yangon. So, yeah, it was kind of like, you know, one of those moments where you have to pinch yourself. You're like, is this really happening? So. And even then, I met the caretakers of that tomb, and they all spoke Urdu. All of them, they all spoke Urdu. And I used to. I asked them, and they would recite poetry back to me and they would talk about how they were taking care of this space. It was an interesting experience because my Burmese. Burmese friend was equally as puzzled about this entire experience because for him, it was even new, because I feel like he had never seen the South Asian connection as how deep it is in his country. You get what I'm saying? I think a lot of them see it from a very superficial surface. Nationalism. Oh. And then the South Asians went and they left. But they don't understand how deep the roots are over here.
- [20:42]
A
That's incredibly powerful on so many levels because you're obviously speaking of erasure, but you're speaking of a. Of a. An important. An important historical monument in the downtown that people. That's in, you know, lonely planet. It's not hidden.
- [20:54]
B
Yeah.
- [20:55]
A
It's not forbidden.
- [20:56]
B
No, no. It's dead.
- [20:57]
A
And they just. They don't understand or appreciate. But where this is all going, of Course, you can't talk about this without talking about the oppressive government and the way that it's. You know, the way that it's highlighted Burmanization and. And. And kind of the Burmese Buddhist majority and where education and media fit into that. And so, you know, because of the conditioning that it's. And the rewriting of history that it's been able to do, it was surreal.
- [21:24]
B
Like, one thing which I just want to add. I'm so sorry, I just want to add, over here, there is a line, one very famous line of the poetry that the emperor had written. So, like, for little context, the emperor ended up in Yangon because he was sent there in exile from Delhi by the British, obviously. So they sent him to exiles because. Because he was riling up the people in Pakistan and India for independence against the British. Like, this was 100 years before we got our independence. So he was sent into exile in Yangon. So right before, I guess he was about to die, he was very lonely, very sad. He wrote a poem. And the poem, it was like, I'll read it in Urdu and I'll translate it in English. It's like. So, like, it literally translates to. And it's surreal. When I'm reading it there in Burma, it's like he's like, how unfortunate is Zafar the name of the emperor, that he did not even get a piece of land to be buried in his own homeland. So he was like. He was like, lamenting at that, like, oh, I'm gonna die, and I'm gonna die alone, not amongst my own people. I'm gonna be buried in this place which is far away from my land. But at the same time, when you look at it from a metaphorical perspective, it's this one piece of land which is still somehow maintaining a connection and, like, showing that, okay, there was South Asians over here, like, in language and every. So when I was reading it, I was just getting goosebumps. I was like, oh, my God. I understand what is written here. And I feel a Spain. I feel a Spain because I am a South Asian over here. I'm far away from my land. But there is also this familiarity. So, yeah, that's how it was. Yeah.
- [23:03]
A
And it's. It points the way to where. To the. The possibility of a future Myanmar where it's focused on inclusion and there's a way of, you know, celebrating and appreciating and acknowledging the. The rich history and the communities coming together and how much you have to learn. I mean, I. I've made this argument before, in, in interviews that, you know, you travel so far to have new experiences well within Myanmar. The different types of food and culture and monuments and architecture, the different things you can experience just in Myanmar. You know, this, this Burmese Buddhist guide that was taking you, you know, if, if, if, if his education and what was it possible in his society had been different, he could have realized right in his own backyard this incredible piece of historical connection that was right there. And, you know, that kind of points the way towards a, a reimagined future possibility that is not the case now.
- [23:56]
B
Exactly, exactly. Like, if for him, the concept that there was and still is a connection between South Asia and Burma was a very alien concept. Like, because I feel like history obviously is written by like, you know, like, specific people. So they probably just see it from the point of, oh, erasure, nationalism and that kind of thing. But like, again, you need to wonder and I guess ask the question that what were the South Asians doing here? How did they come here? Why are they still here? You. They're very simple questions, but I guess, like, I don't know, like what, like how it all comes down to education and your human experiences, I guess.
- [24:39]
A
And, you know, then of course, the, the interesting irony is just as you have the last Mughal emperor that is exiled to Burma, you have the last Burmese king who's then exiled to the middle of nowhere in India, and there's still Burmese influences kind of from that last king. But what's also interesting about, you know, I don't want to. There's always the danger of, of when you're trying to, to speak to erasure or to these hidden histories that you then, in return, you then flatten and erase parts of the story you're telling. Because when we look at this last Mughal emperor, the story is not simply that clean, that, that itself is debated. And when I looked, when you shared this, I mean, you had, and as you say, the Internet doing its thing, you had an extensive comment section that would. From people who were, you know, quite informed, living in India and Pakistan that seen, you know, who, who was this? What was the Mughal empire? Who. The Mughal people? What did this last. This, this, this last emperor represent? And, and even the terminology became charged because, you know, 1857, what do you call it? Is it, is it mutiny? Is it the war?
- [25:40]
B
Exactly.
- [25:41]
A
Revolt? Is it uprising? All of these different words, they, they carry different meanings on the politics. And, and then the whole thing then spirals, as it happened in this comment section, into arguments about Rajput ancestry, British colonialism. You Know, the South Asian identity politics. And so even this question of kind of like, what, what, what was. Were the Mughals integrated in the society? To what extent were they invaders? What did 1857 represent? You know, this then gets legitimately messy in and of itself as well.
- [26:17]
B
It does, it does. But I was prepared for it because I was like, you know what? At least we will have a forum to discuss this. And I'm glad. I'm glad the comment section was the dumpster fire that it was, because I was like, at least we are talking about this even in Pakistan, in India. I don't think a lot of us even know at the same time that, okay, we have a connection. There's some sort of connection there. Even for us, it's very new because for us, like, Burma, Myanmar, a lot of people, they're like, oh, it's Thailand. It's Thailand sisters. Next. That's how they'll talk about it. But no, no, no. It's its own country. It's its own. And we very much have a connection there still to this day.
- [27:00]
A
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think that's the case. And that's where, you know, you mention the ways that there's these kind of Burmese threads that are. That you find in Pakistan that you don't quite know where they are. And there's this old Rangoon that you hear. You mentioned the Bollywood song and just the role of the wartime stories and ancestry and things. And so I'm going back to, you know, before you actually went there, I'm curious what Rangoon and Burma, what they meant in your own imagination. And then what you. Once you got there, how you find things kind of aligning and contesting with what your imaginary space was of the. Of the. Of the region.
- [27:40]
B
Oh, yeah. Okay. So, like, in. In. In my part of the world, people don't know it as Yangon. So I have to. If I'm putting content, I had to say Rangoon. People know Rangoon. They. They know Rangoon because Rangoon is very much in our pop culture, in our, like, it's there, like. And Rangoon was always even in, like, our idioms, like, you know, like when we use in our expressions. So there is like, an idiom where we use, like, Rangoon is kind of like, oh, as, like, you know, when they say, like, I can't remember the Urdu, the exact Urdu. But, like, when they say, like, this place is the Mecca for this. So we say. We say. We say Rangoon, like, And Rangoon means, like, oh, it's. It's the place you go to get everything. And it probably comes from, you know, like, how Rangoon was a boomtown, how it was New York before New York. So you went to. You went to Rangoon to get it. So it's very much there in our subconscious. So it's this mystical kind of land which actually does exist. So I had to. Whenever I had to, when I would say Yang, they're like, where are you going? I was like, yangon. They would look at me personal, but I say Rangu. They're like, oh, you're going to Rangoon? And the reaction will be like, oh, like, I'm probably going to some, like, really, like, fantastical land. Because that's how it's very much used in our expressions and very much even. Even in pop culture and even in our songs. Like Rangoon. Like, it's like a businessman is going there to, like, make a fortune.
- [29:01]
A
So.
- [29:02]
B
So it was very interesting, like, when I told people I was going there. But another interesting, like, the other side of it is, like, whenever I say so, Rangoon has that impression. But when you say Burma, Burma has a very different expression because Burma is then associated with the Rohingya Muslim oppression. And that is the first thing that will come up. They're like, oh, Bilal. Like, are you sure you want to go there? They hate Muslims and everything. And again, I want to. When we discuss further and everything, that's another part of the discussion which is like. Is like, is it all Muslims? How is it? So I was like, you know what? I. I don't know, but when I go there, I'll find out. So I guess when I got there, I think the first thing that hit me was how many Muslims you see openly in Yangon? Because in my head, I was like, oh, this is like a very. Like, there's probably not going to be any Muslims. I'll probably have to hide my identity. Whereas, like, I can't, because my first name is Muhammad. Sounds like it's there. But. But you. But you see women in hijabs. You see all that in downtown Yangon, there's lots of mosques. And I was like, wait, there's much more to this story than I need to, like, understand. So, yeah, that was one thing. And again, the conversations with different Muslim communities, you kind of realize there's more. There's a lot of nuance to this. Again, not to erase what is happening to the Rohingya, because that's another part of the discussion. Yeah, that was there. But Rangoon, when you get there, you're like, you do get a feeling when you look at it. You're like, okay, this was a great city at one time. It was. And you do feel the little, the depression in the air. You do feel it. And it's very sad when it hits you because at night when all the lights are switched off and like, you just see Shwedagon at night lit up, it's like, it's this sadness which I can't put my finger on. But you do get the feeling when you see the buildings, you see the diversity, you see synagogues right next to churches, right next to mosques, right next to pagodas, you're like, so many people were probably here, like, where did they all go? And it is there very much that
- [31:18]
A
in the air, that's powerful. And I think you're also touching upon the post coup reality that many people are living very much. And you know, I haven't, I haven't been to Myanmar since the coup. I lived there 15 years before and despite many of the challenges that people faced, there was always a color and a life and a, and a vibrancy. And I, I have been told by, by my Burmese friends as well as foreign friends who've gone before and after that, the change, and especially in the countryside is stark and just, you know, we can't talk about Myanmar without talking about the, obviously the, you know, the food insecurity and violence and, and the oppression and, you know, so much else that is going along with that. And so, and so as you're, you're talking about this diversity of experience that, that you're finding there's, there's also, we talk about layers. There's also this layer of, of, of the underlying fear and terror. Yes, that is just to survive.
- [32:18]
B
It's very much there. And like, because I also went outside Yangon, I went to this place called Golden Rock. I think it's called Chaitu. That's how they, so I went there. Like, it's a very important Buddhist pilgrimage place. And it's not that far from Yangon, like technically on the map. But it took us like around like four, five hours because there are so many military checkpoints along the way. And at every checkpoint you have to show your passport. Imagine their expression. The minute they see a Pakistani passport, they're like, what is he doing over here? And, and then at the same time, one thing that kind of hits you is, is, is the corruption, is how bad it is. Like at every checkpoint you have to bribe or they won't let you go. Like, he's holding on to my passport. So now I have to like, you know. Yeah, yeah they, they'll. They'll very much just very brazenly and it also kind of is a bit frightening also because all of them are armed, all of these people. So I don't know if they're military, if they're militia. Again I do not speak the language so I don't know what is happening over here. Like on the way to Chaithu I think there were. I counted eight going and eight coming back. And the checkpoints is always. It's like this, it's like this bottleneck. So you just have to wait. You have to wait very patiently. At the same time I went like right now. So the fuel crisis that was very much there. Very bad lines were like, like people would start lining. I think they open up at 6am in the morning and people would start lining up a night before. One thing that really, the one thing that really hits you over there is. Is the massive, the massive gap between the rich and the poor. Like, like it is jarring. In Pakistan we also have a huge gap but in, in Myanmar it smacks you in the face. Like the ones who have. I feel like it is wild. It is wild. Well than the ones that don't have nothing. And from conversations with people that I had, I understood that it's gotten worse post the coup. Like that's how it's gotten. Yeah, that's what really, really hits you over there. Like Yangon I would say is probably one of my favorite cities in Southeast Asia. It has, it has so many layers to it but there is this deep sadness like which I could not put my finger on but. But it is there very much there. And like. And at night time like the minute the sun goes down, you do not want to stay outside. Although like nothing happens but it. You just feel it. You just feel it in the air.
- [34:53]
A
Wow, that's. That's quite a vivid description. And, and I want to go back to you know you referencing being not just a tourist but a Pakistani tourist because you had, you had also referenced and shared in your stories about how when you arrived. Well first you're the only foreigner on the plane. You arrive in an almost empty airport. You and immigration officers as you describe it are, are just baffled that a Pakistani tourist was coming just to see the sights and yeah, because basically I
- [35:21]
B
guess like obviously because like I guess pre cool like pagan and it was the hottest tourist destination. But again the, the picture of a tourist is probably a western tourist, a white tourist And I guess, like, when my plane was full, like, it was coming from Kuala Lumpur. But majority of them were migrant workers. Like, majority of them, like, all of them. Like, I think 99%, I was the only one. They did not know what to do with me because they hadn't seen one, I guess. So, like, they literally looked at my passport. I don't think they'd seen a Pakistani passport in a while, I guess. And then. I guess he called someone. And then they, like, look at my passport under a few lights. They checked my visa. Although my visa, I had gotten it from Islamabad. So, like, in Pakistan. So I was like, it's the most reliable thing that I got it from my home country. So they checked it and they asked me a few questions. And one question they specifically did ask me, they're like, they're like, I. You're. You're not a journalist, right? I was like, no, I'm a doctor. Like, and. Which is my profession, my side profession. And I was like, they're like, oh, okay. And he's like, are you sure you're not. I was like, no, I'm not. Like, obviously. I was like, you can see it on my visa also. And he's like, okay. And then he took my passport and then he came back five minutes later and. And then they asked where I was staying. I was staying at the Pan Pacific. So it's a nice hotel. So, like, I guess you can, like, it was like a decent enough, like, for them to see that, okay, he's. He's not like a regular tourist. And they're like, okay, sure, you can go. And I. It's. It was surreal. I've never come in, like, because one thing you also come to realize, like, the moment you start lining up at Kuala Lumpur is how much documentation regular Burmese citizens require to move in and out of the country. Like, the line from Kuala Lumpur, in fact, before you go to Myanmar, you start realizing that something is wrong here. Like, because at Kuala Lumpur airport is a very efficient airport, everything moves very fast. But that line to Yangon, my God, it was painful because all Burmese citizens require a lot of documents. And they check each and every one of them. And unfortunately, I guess I was the only tourist I had to just bear with that line. And it moves in very, very slowly. And I flew with Myanmar Airlines, so they check everything. And the minute you land over there, the Burmese citizens, they go into a completely separate line. Completely separate line. It like, kind of feels like apartheid. Like, where, where, where, where. Where, like, the locals actually get. Get the worst of everything. And like, like they get, they went into this line where everything was being checked, they were being harassed, and I was like the only tourist that I guess they didn't want me to see that side also, but I guess I was the only one there. Like, I think I took my phone out, I tried to film there. Like, someone came and told me to put it down. So, yeah, it was, it was a very interesting way to enter into the country. But I had already gotten like, you know, like my sixth sense was that, okay, you can tell that all is not well here.
- [38:25]
A
I mean, you're really giving these vivid descriptions of these, these multiple interacting components of society that are, that even as a first time visitor, you're picking up on, you know, the lived reality of largely South Asian and Muslim communities and kind of the, the, the, the historical connections and the, the food and the language and you know, all of those things that are, that are, that are making this really warm connection. And you're seeing this beauty of it. But then you're, you're getting this sense of the sadness of the emptiness and then the restrictions. I mean, then the reminder that like, this is a. And, and you're seeing such a small microcosm of what has been a five and a half war, you know, where you have more landmines in Myanmar than any other country, where the military's bombing its own people seven times a day, where, you know, food insecurity and displacement are at the highest levels in the world and it's bad all of. And you're, you know, you're, you're not encountering that, but you're encountering kind of the ripples, I would say, of those effects. You're seeing just kind of the, the iceberg on the surface of the disaster
- [39:24]
B
that's below you very much. Like, I wasn't there long, was there like for around like a week, 10 days. But you see it like, like, and, you know, it makes you very uncomfortable. Like, like I was staying at a nice hotel and over there, like every night the buffet over there used to be like, it used to cost like, I think around 50 to $60, which is not cheap. Like, and, and I remember this one clear image in my head because that day I had come back from Chaithu, and at Chaitu we'd stopped at a, at this place called Bago, which is on the way back from there. And we stopped at like this little roadside place to eat something. And that's where you understand the food insecurity part. And we Were like, do you have anything? What do you have? She's like, oh, I just have white rice. That's basically it. And we asked. And I asked my, like, guide and my friend, he's like. He's like, oh, no. He's like, they actually don't have anything else. And that's basically it. And he's like, it's very hard to get, like, basic food. And I was like, okay. I was like, kind of makes sense and whatever. I wasn't paying much attention to it until then. When I get to my hotel and everything and this buffet, there was this huge party and they were popping champagne. There was, like, fireworks and everything inside. And I was like, you see these two Myanmars at the same time? There's one woman who literally has nothing to eat. It's just white rice. And she's like, this is all I have. And we asked. We're like, oh, do you have chai tea or anything? She's like, no, I'm too poor. I don't have that much. And. And then there's this other end over there which, like, literally these people. And they had those, you know, those. Those guns which you throw, like, dollars out of them. They were like. I was like, what is happening? And so, yeah, you do see those two Myanmars. And it is very sad and it is very extreme.
- [41:11]
A
Yeah. And I, you know, I think what. What made me appreciate the stories you were telling and made me want to reach out was that you were. I understand that foreigners that are coming in the country can't openly described as honestly and transparently as you are now. But you were going into the historical part and the connections. And yes, to contrast that. One of the things that absolutely drives me crazy and I get into way more trouble online than I should, are these largely kind of young Western influencer videos that are like, you know, I went to a war zone, and this is what I found. Or even worse, and sometimes simultaneously, which is absurd. Is. Is not. I went to a war zone. This is what I found. But the media saying that Myanmar is like this, and it's totally safe.
- [41:49]
B
No, no, it's. No, it's not. And I would. And it's wrong. It drives me livid because these were only my point of references. These. These influences who had watched. And I was. I was like, oh, yeah, it's safe. Oh, no, it's the Western media. I was like, bro, it's not. And either it's your Western privilege because of you, or either. Or either you're blind that you're not seeing it because it's very much there. There's this one picture. Even if you're trying to forget all of this, you will see this again even when you're leaving the country. Because when you're leaving the country, you see two Myanmars. Immediately you'll see two Myanmars. There'll be the one, the regular man who will be lining at the gate. And they will be being humiliated by the security because they'll again be checking their papers, their papers, their papers, their papers. And they won't be let in. And those lines are long. Those lines are long and painful. But they also have a signboard outside which clearly says they're like $150. You can go to the Minglaba lounge. And if you can go to the minglabar lounge, just $150, you pay that, you go in, your immigration will be done. The immigration officer will come to you. They'll serve you a nice coffee, a nice tea. Your bag will be checked in. And you see it there in front of you, like you're like. And like, you see how the common man is being humiliated. But if you have money, you can escape that. And the sign is there. You see it very much there. And it makes you sad. It makes you very sad because the people who are suffering is the regular person who's suffering over here. It's like. And if you don't see it in front of you, you have to be blind, dead in front of you.
- [43:36]
A
Yeah. And this is where I want to get into. What you mentioned a bit earlier is you. You were talking about when you came in contact with, speaking about the Rohingya population and then where that fit in with. I mean, again, when we talk about diversity, we're not just talking about diversity of peoples and backgrounds. There is tremendous Muslim diversity. You know, there's Shia, there's Sunni, there's. There's Indian, there's. There's Pakistani, there's Rohingya, there's Kamal. Exactly. There's all of these different Muslim identities. And there's. But, you know, obviously Rohingya has been by far the most persecuted. And so what was your experience as you started to very carefully speak about the Rohingya population and then learn about the wider Islamophobia in ways that it existed or that in, you know, some of the younger generation has. I don't know if you experienced it, but has been kind of pushing out and speaking out a bit more.
- [44:23]
B
Yes, this. This was like the most interesting part, because the first day I got there, I Was obviously, like, obviously, I'm. I'm Muslim. I have a Muslim name. And like, I guess the first anxiety that I had was I was like, oh, my God. This is probably because whenever you. Again, then there's another tangent of, like, people who post content, they're like, this is the most Islamophobic country in the world. And like, it's terrible. They're going to link you. They say stuff like that, you know, again, for content, for clickbait. And I was like, oh, my God, I'm going. I'm going to Yangon. I don't want to be lynched. Because that's. That's the content I'm seeing out there, right? And I was like, my. And our passport, the Paxi passport is green, so it's very Muslim in your face place. So, like, I was like, I. I did not know what to expect. So. But when I get there again, my hotel was in downtown and like, you see a lot of Muslim life and everything, and you see a lot of women in burkas, hijabs. And then I was like, wait, there's probably much more to this story than if there is over here. And so slowly, slowly, like, as I, like, I think it was like the first hour or two, I just crossed the street from my hotel and I go to Bougyoke Market. I went to Bogyoke Market. There was this uncle, and I recorded the video over there. And he instantly just started talking to me on Urdu and everything. And I was like, how did you know? He's like, all right. He's like, I know. There's enough experience. We see. So then we started chatting. And long story short, he asked me. He's like, oh, are you Muslim? He asked me. I didn't ask him. So. And I was like, yes, I am. And I was like, are you? He's like, yes. And then he says, he's like, by the way, a lot of the merchants that work in this market are Muslim. And then I was like, wait, what is happening here? Because I was told there's no Muslims here. And then slowly, slowly, like, they would all be very comfortable with me talking to me, because they're like, okay. He's kind of like, I don't want to say, but, like, kind of like one of us. So they would give me chai and everything. Then slowly, slowly, I would realize a lot of, like, these little nuances where they were kind of also watching out for me. They weren't saying it overtly, but they would say, they're like, where are you staying? I was like, I'm staying there. They're like, oh, okay. It's good. They're like, do you. Do you. Do you want food recommendations? I was like, and. But. But by that, they were saying, oh, halal food. They wouldn't say the word halal, but they were like, go over there. Then they would. I'd ask them, is it safe? Is everything okay? They would look at each other. They would say it. They wouldn't say it, but I would see that they would be like, why is he asking us these questions? And then. But. But one of them would always. They're like, yeah, yeah, it's safe. It's fine. Just don't wander off at night. You'll be okay. And then I would ask. Then I think I asked one of them. I was like. I just put it. I was like. I was like, what's a good time to go to Shwettagon? Would it be okay? And I think there was a pause. Like, they were like, why. Why does he want to go to Shwetagon?
- [47:08]
A
Like, right there you get those siloed communities, right?
- [47:10]
B
Yeah, you. You get. Exactly. And that's where you sense that it's not as. Interact as much as people interact with one another. Even like the other group of South Asians, like, who I hung out with the other day, like, who I spoke about earlier, and I told them, I was like, okay, we get back to Yangon, like, a bit early. They're like, why? I was like, I want to go for sundown to Shwetakon. And they were so puzzled by that. They were like. I was like, it's the icon of Burma. But. But for them, it was like, but you're Muslim. Why are you going. You know, you get with that.
- [47:43]
A
I wonder if they'd ever been there in their life.
- [47:45]
B
I doubt it. I don't think so.
- [47:47]
A
That's incredible. So I just want to highlight that you have these South. These. These Burmese South Asians. I mean, they've been their. Their South Asian industry, but ancestry. But they've been in Burma all their life for generations, and they've never been in shredding contrasted with the Burmese Buddhist guide, who, like many Burmese Buddhists would have never gone to some of the. The.
- [48:05]
B
The Baadisha Zafar or the mosque side.
- [48:07]
A
Right, right, right, right.
- [48:08]
B
So, like, it was interesting. And then, like, as I got more comfortable because I would regularly go to Bogyoke Market. I love that place. Like, I spent. I spent a lot of money over there. You'll get stuff that you don't need. So I would go there. So. So. So they. They kind of realized that he's. He's a regular. So they would. They would chat me up regularly. And I'd like to, because I wanted to get deeper. I wanted to ask questions. So I think, like, the. The second, third day, I kind of had their trust. So I was like, okay, I can ask the question. So I was like, uncle, what's the scene with the rohingya? How is it? You could feel the air in the room just go still. You could feel it. You could feel it instantly.
- [48:47]
A
And what language were you asking this in?
- [48:48]
B
Urdu. Urdu. I was very careful. I'm speaking in Urdu because I was like, I don't want any. Like, if there's anyone who speaks Burmese to understand what we're saying. So I was like, I'm not even gonna ask us in English, so. And I was like, what is the situation? And I asked it very carefully. I was like. I was like, can you explain to me, like, as an outsider? I was like, I don't know anything. I just hear things. So I, like, I posed it like that. Oh, my God. Like, I felt like I had, like, walked into a minefield over there. And not just a minefield. I felt like I could see it on their face that they felt scared instantly. And one of them, like, just like, I think the senior most uncle, he was like. He was like. He was like. His exact answer was. He's like, but there's just some people who cause problems. And it's just. And it's kind of like how he distanced himself from it. He. Very tactfully, not so many words. He said, it's a they problem. It's not an us problem. Whereas you're Muslim also. And when you read into these things, like the Islamophobia that comes from the state level targets, all Muslims and all of them bear the brunt of it. Because the deeper I ask questions and everything. Because when I had their trust, they would in not so many words say that, yes, there is Islamophobia. It sometimes comes from the top. Like, they would say, well, like, one person or another would slip, like, a little bit of this. And then I would ask them that, oh, how are relations between. They're like, they're okay, but, like, there's some places I would not go to as a Muslim. I was like, where would you not go? They're like, oh, no, Sagain or Sagain. I would not go there. They're like, it's very dangerous. And then I could see one of the uncles say to the other that, oh, why are you telling him? Just don't say this. Just don't say this. You know, the interesting thing is I understood the language they were speaking in also because a lot of them, which is more interesting because, like, I'm going on a segue, but a lot of the people in Myanmar, the argument is that, oh, the Rohingya are Bengali or they're Bangladeshi, they're from there, they're invaders. But a lot of the language that a lot of these Muslims would be talking in amongst themselves would be Bengali. I understood what they were saying, like, because, like, and like, in Bengali, he would like, say. He's like, don't tell him that. Why are you telling them that? Oh, no, this is too controversial. Like, and I'd be like. I felt like there was a lot of, like, you know, like that book, what's it called? 1984. 1984. You feel that? You feel that in Yangon?
- [51:18]
A
You feel that? Well, you know, George, or, you know George Orwell lived in Burma, which is more surreal.
- [51:23]
B
I was like, this is a full circle moment. There's a lot of double speak. A lot of double speak. And when you go in there as an outsider Muslim and you're trying to dig and understand the situation, it's like, they'll say one thing and then five, 10 minutes later, they'll realize, oh, shit, what the hell did I just say? And then they'll completely cover it up because they know there is Islamophobia from the top. They know it happens, but they're like, it's a day problem. It's not mine. I don't want to be affected. Like, even when I went into the. There's so many mosques in Yangon, so many beautiful mosques. I went to all of them. They would all be like, there's no problems in Muslim. This is the conversation. All of them had the same beginning and ending. They're like, this is good. No, nothing's wrong with Muslims. Everything's okay. We all have a good time and everything. Do you want some chai? Yes, sir. Yes, uncle and everything. But then I ask the question. And then you feel like they're like, oh, God, what has he asked? And, and. And some of them, like, which was more jarring for me, would actually say that the Rohingyas, like, get. Are getting what they deserve. And that was shocking for me. I was like, muslims are saying this? Yes. And I was like, I was like, as a Muslim, for you to say this. Yeah. And. And and their argument was like, oh, no, they're causing. If anyone is causing problems with the government, the government has the right to respond to them. And I felt like. I was like, okay, this guy is just trying to be careful. Because I was like, there is no way you can say that. But they would see it. And only a few, very few, I could count on my fingers two or three who actually said that what has happened is very wrong. And I'm not comfortable talking about this point blank. Just said it to my face. And I was like, okay, I'm not gonna ask more. And he said. He's like, what has happened is very wrong. And my heart is very sad for my brothers. That's the word. Like, for my brothers over there. But I cannot talk about this brother. Like. And one of them actually closed the door of the mosque on my face and he's like, just go. Just go. Don't talk more.
- [53:19]
A
Oh, my God.
- [53:20]
B
And I realized. I understood. There is a fear. There is a fear. And I guess as a Muslim, that's when I realized, okay, it's not all. Well, and all Muslims just do not want to be associated with this. So, yeah, that's where you do you understand? And I very clearly understood. Okay. And like, there's one. Like, I asked, I was like, oh, are there any In Yangon any? And like, it's like they looked at me as if, like, are you crazy? Like, just why are you asking these questions? And, you know, I understand because I live in Pakistan. There's also a few red lines and few sensitive questions which. And I understood exactly the parallels what is happening here? So I was like, okay, yeah, so,
- [54:01]
A
yeah, that's the whole interaction, it's really powerful. And I think what. What I'm. What I'm really thinking, as I hear that is you're. You're having these conversations with people that are off the record. They're not being recorded.
- [54:14]
B
No, no, no.
- [54:15]
A
Build up a sense of trust. They're speaking, you know, Muslim to Muslim. And within certain people that are living on the ground, living through this, you're speaking in. In. In. Not in Burmese, but in languages that. That are not. That are where they could speak more freely.
- [54:30]
B
But.
- [54:30]
A
But there's still this hesitation where. Why I'm building that up is I'm contrasting that kind of inside. You know, this is very much inside on the ground dialogue.
- [54:39]
B
Yes.
- [54:39]
A
And the kinds of conversations we've been having this platform are very opposite that they're very much like people that are that. That have. That have been politically activated that are taking stands, that are, that are doing actions and that are describing what it is they're doing and you know, what their views are. And these, these are, you know, Buddhist and Muslim and many other Christian, many other Burmese that we're speaking to. But the contrast is, is, is so massive here and in these two different directions and where they're bifurcating and where gap is becoming and it's, it's so valuable to, you know, as, as I talk to so many Gen Z and, and democratic leaders and activists that are really, that are, are speaking so clearly about not just the problems that Myanmar is facing in terms of the, the, the inner ethnic understanding and coming together, but also the roots of that problem. I mean, really clearly defining where, you know, whether it's Facebook, whether it's the military regime, even NLD or Aung San SUU Kyi or you know, whatever it is they say going deep into where, going back to British colonialism, you know, where these problems came from and how they're living out today. And I'm not talking about like PhD students or you know, people with, with, with, with privilege or great education. I'm talking about people who have lived through a very difficult and courageous life, are still living through it and are coming to speak to us to say this is, is, this is what I understand is the cancer in our society and this is what, this is why we are doing what we're doing. Whether it's you know, actually fighting with, with weapons, we've spoken to those people or whether it's working on a federal constitution or doing work on media or activism or you know, whatever it is, they're, they're, they're coming from that standpoint. And so it's so interesting to contrast that and the direction they're moving with and, and how, you know, for the first time in kind of unprecedented ways, they're really being direct and looking squarely at what these problems are and how to fix them in ways that were taboo and unsafe to talk about previously. But then you contrast that direction and movement with the extraordinary, you know, underlying fear and, and terror and, and, and carefulness that one has on the ground where you know, you're, and again, that's why I set up so much. I mean, how off the record and you know, careful and Muslim Muslim these conversations are. And even with that you're literally getting doors shut in your face.
- [57:04]
B
Yes.
- [57:04]
A
Which is a testament to, you know, the, the on one hand on the ground, the, the in the military controlled areas, the, how much this, this fear and this terror is, is being part of the culture and the psyche and the mindset. While on the other direction in, in the liberate, the so called liberated areas and then outside Myanmar you have another generation or a different group of people that are, are taking this head on in ways they've never had before as others are submerging it greater than they did before the coups. So you really have a lot of energies moving in these different directions.
- [57:37]
B
Absolutely. And there's another thing which I want to touch on is that like, I feel like a lot of people don't know this but, but all the Muslims in Myanmar live double lives. And now I need to explain this. Like all of, all of them have a Muslim name. So like if they meet me, they will tell me their Muslim name. I will communicate with them in like, with that and like, like the name will be Ali, Mohammed, Mustafa and these things. And even amongst themselves that those are the names they refer to them. But by, by Burmese law or something like they have to have a Burmese name. So. And which is kind of, which was very mind boggling, which was a lot of. And, and I asked them this question like, because I was like. And I asked all of them, I was like, I was like, why? And one of them. And you know, the thing is in Burma you have to. A lot of the people, if they're trying to speak freely, they will speak in very subtle subtexts. They won't say it overtly. So one of them just blurted out, and he said it very sarcastically, he's like, you know, as a Muslim, just to make our lives easier, it's fine. And he just said it like that and he said it. And the other one, he's like, yeah, we don't stand out that much. It's fine, it's fine. I'm okay with that. And so they, all of them had Burmese names. So it was kind of interesting how when we were amongst each other as Muslims, we would be talking in our Muslim Muslim names and everything. But then when we went out later in the night, we went to a nightclub and they met colleagues who were not Muslim. They would be talking to them like in their Burmese names. Like they were like. I was like, wow. Like, it's like they live a double life life. It's like there's one life which is just like kind of like a safe zone within the community, but there's one which they have to live if they want to live in the society. So that's how it is. So. And they have to give up that identity kind of that thing, right?
- [59:31]
A
Well, you're pointing to, you know, historically what marginalized groups everywhere have had to go through is the question of assimilation, you know, and to what extent you, you, you, you, in order to gain safety, you, you let go of. You let go or you hide or you live a double life. Certain aspects of your actual identity in order to slip into society. And that's also where like I, I bring in a guest we had. Alicia Turner is an academic on our platform who's based in Canada. And she made the remark that, you know, in Canada we have, everywhere you go, things have to be in English and French. And so even if you're living in entirely English speaking communities, you see the existence of French language that indicate to you and remind you that there's a French speaking population here. And she says, in Myanmar, you, you simply don't see those multiple languages on there. And then that goes into, you know, religious holidays and monuments and everything else we've been saying. We're like, it would be really nice to think and maybe. And again, this is the direction that a lot of our guests point to. The Myanmar they're trying to build is where your Muslim friends can meet their Buddhist colleagues and, and, and, and you know, there's the naming aspect. But then apart from that, you know, if there's a Muslim holiday or something, their Buddhist friends are, are knowing it and acknowledging it and, and, and asking about it. But the, there's simply so much erasure. You know, there, there's simply so much that you can't talk about.
- [60:50]
B
There is a lot of erasure. Like, there's like coming back to like, you know, those subtle subtexts in which you kind of pick up cues of the society. So there's this one, I, this is one like a picture like when I went to Shwe Degon. So I guess I was like one of the, probably the only tourists there that kind of stood out. And there's a lot of people there. And I think I went right before Tinjian, the New year. So like, it was very crowded. There's a lot of ceremonies taking place. And I guess because I was one of the only tourists there, so I was standing out. So like a lot of people were coming take pictures with me and it was very sweet. So there's this one picture which I took and I was showing my like the Muslim friends that I hung out with. And there's this like one family, they literally gave me their baby. And like, it was a very cute child. I was holding them And I took the picture. And one of them just asked. He's like, And I don't know why he asked. He's like. He's like, did they know you're Muslim? I was like. I was like, I don't think we had that conversation. They're like. And one of them just says, he's like, yeah, like, it would be really funny if they knew you were Muslim. They would not give it to you. And you know, just to pass that remark, just to say that, like. And I was like, oh, well, wait, what. What do you mean? Like, is not everything okay? Is it not okay? And it's like, they did not hear me. They did not want to have the conversation, but they made their point through that. So that's where you kind of pick up the subtexts of society. That. Okay, it's there. That is there. It is there somewhere underneath the layers.
- [62:15]
A
That's true. And another thread I want to bring in here is in Yangon, as you're describing in your journey, on your account, you were showing Chulia Muslim institutions built by Tamil Muslims from South India and Tamil plaques alongside Urdu and Burmese South Indian Hindu temples that were sitting right across from mosques and, and commentators that were, were, were engaging with you pointed out there's still Tamil restaurants and entire communities that are there today. And so historically, these weren't small communities. You know, the Tamils came as traders, as dock workers, laborers, money lenders, as entire religious communities, both Hindu and Muslim, and became deeply woven into the life of colonial Rangoon. And you know, as with erasure, they. We might. One might not talk about them or know them, but. But they're still very much there. And so when you were walking through Yangon, how visible was it for you, this specifically Tamil influence? How did that come out to you? And did it feel like a surviving minority trace? Or was it. Did it feel like one of the foundations or community centers itself?
- [63:20]
B
Interesting. Like, it is very much there, but it does very much feel like, you know, one of those communities which is on its last thread. That's what it feels like. Like the Muslim community in Yangon is still pretty vibe. It's still very prominent and very sizable. Like it's a big number. You will see them. But the Tamils, like, you see the odd Tamil temple, but you don't see much life there. As in once you, I think once you step outside Yangon, there's a very big Tamil temple. There is a lot of activity over there. There's Tamil restaurants, also there's DOSA cafes and Everything. But at the same time, you also feel like. You feel like it was much more vibrant before than it is now. That's what it feels like. And you get that feeling all throughout Yangon. You get that feeling that, like. There's one question you keep on asking yourself. You're like, these buildings are here. Where are the people? Where did they go? That is one question. Like, right along, I think, which is very surreal, especially, like, there's one street where there's the Chulia, Tamil Dargah. And as you're walking down the street, you come across the synagogue, the very prominent synagogue. It's on the same street. And as you walk a bit further down, you come across another mosque and you come across another Tamil temple. So the point being, the synagogue is pretty much not that active. The Tamil Temple, you won't see that many people. And the mosques are only strictly open during prayer time. Otherwise they're closed. So it's like you keep on asking yourself, where are. And the Armenian church. In fact, I was staying at the Pan Pacific, so the churches are right across from my hotel. I never saw people there. I was like, but those churches are beautiful. You always go inside, but you're like, where are the people? And you do understand. And when you read into the context, you understand the erasure and you understand how people were sent out, kicked out, and all that stuff. And it's very sad because I feel like. And I want to add over here that when you read into Burma and read into Myanmar, you're like, this country could be so great.
- [65:30]
A
Oh, goodness.
- [65:31]
B
If they embraced its diversity. Just embrace it. Embrace. There is no country like it. I've been to, like, 51 countries across the globe. There is like. I was like, this could be its strength. And that's the sadness you feel over there.
- [65:47]
A
Yeah, certainly. And that's also, you know, coupled with that is the optimism you feel when you start to talk to those that are trying to make those changes and, you know, certainly be interested. Interesting to put you in touch with some of those that are.
- [65:58]
B
Oh, yes.
- [65:59]
A
Are. Are on that other side of it and see that other side of. Are trying to overturn that fear and terror right now.
- [66:05]
B
You know, I felt so happy. And thank God for the Internet is like, when I started putting up this stuff. So a lot, like, the engagement has been wild on some of this. And these are a lot of these Burmese people who live outside there. And they're like. I think I posted a carousel of photos where it was like moving postcards. It's just sounds and you just see people walking across. It's just like regular life. And it has like 7,8000 likes. And it's just regular people that are like, oh my God, I did not realize I missed home so much. I wish I can go back. Oh my God. And that's when I realized, like, there's so many people out there who are connecting with this. Yeah. And, and there's, and there's a lot of people, like, who commented, oh, I hope for better days in my country. I wish I can go back. And that's where you understand, like you, that's that it's much more complex.
- [66:52]
A
Yeah. And I want to return to this, this Tamil thread because on our platform we spoke with Saravanan. He's a Tamil activist from Myanmar. And the one thing he emphasized in his story is that the Tamil presence in Burma, it was not marginal at all. At one point, Rangoon was so heavily Indian that people described it almost as an Indian city. And he described Tamil laborers, merchants, financiers, dock workers, schools, newspapers, temples, entire neighborhoods that were woven into these foundations. And as he walked us through the history, he also described how much of that world was later erased. He first threw the anti Indian riots in the 1930s. Post independence nationalism, name wins, nationalizations. And then decades. And here is where the story comes into the thread that we've discussed of assimilation decades, where Tamhills felt pressure to hide their language and identity just to survive. And so, you know, listening to you, it feels like your trip was almost uncovering the visa. Some of those visible remnants at the surface of that iceberg that were remnants of that older world. Except these are now through the eyes of a Pakistani outsider encountering it for the first time. And so when you met Tamil Muslims or you saw these Chile institutions and started to, to realize how deep this South Indian presence in Burma had been and particularly this Tamil side. What, what surprised you most and how did it change the way you started to look at Yangon as a city and Burmese society in general around it?
- [68:21]
B
Oh, it really did change. And it really. One thing that when I was, when I was leaving, I was like, I feel like I need to come back here. I need to, I need to dig more deeper. I need to. Because. And also I was like, because I have a social media platform. I need to talk about, like, I need to link these worlds together because I feel like we don't, we're not linked at all. And now like, one interesting thing is like when you read a menu in Yangon, like we have a Dish that's called khao sui. But when you read a menu over there, khao soi just means noodles. It literally just means noodles. So you have to specify which kind you're having. So, like, it was like. Like there is familiarity. There is so much familiarity. And like, especially like when I went to the Chulia mosque over there. So the caretaker, again, we spoke in Urdu over there. But then I asked him, where are you from? He's like, oh, yeah. Like, my mom was Tamil. Tamil from like from Hyderabad. And. But my dad is like half from, like, they would not say, I think Bangladesh, I understood was a dirty word. Like, for them. They cannot say that because if you say Bangladesh, you're associated Rohingya automatically.
- [69:25]
A
Right, Right.
- [69:26]
B
So he would. He very carefully said that my dad spoke Bangla Bengali, like in not so many words. He was saying. I was like, oh, so like, are you from like, the Arakan side, the Bangladesh? He was like, no, no, no, no, no. Not that they were always from here. And I was like, okay. But like, I was like in the context of migration and everything, and when you understand could totally be possible that like, his dad probably came from Bangladesh, mom came from South India, and someone ended up in Yangon. That is a very Yangon story where South Asia met over there. But I guess he just didn't want to say that. Which, yeah, like, if you feel a lot of familiarity over there, but at the same time there is this fear also where you cannot even talk much and you don't want to put the people's lives over their danger, which is why I did not put anyone on record. Like,
- [70:23]
A
yeah. And you know, when you talk about assimilation and kind of diverse Muslim identities in Burma, and one of the conversations that stands out to me, I definitely want to. Want to send this to you to listen to after we talk, because I think you'll find it incredible. There's this incredible story of a Rohingya doctor. And of course, you know, Rohingya are prohibited from going to school, so their. Their opportunities are cut off. And so he's. He's able to somehow. He describes how he's able to.
- [70:49]
B
To.
- [70:50]
A
To bypass the restrictions by. By. By not by. By being able to kind of fudge different forms or something. So he doesn't identify as a Rohingya, but he's just Muslim. So he gets his medical degree and then he goes and he practices medicine in Yangon. He opens his own clinic. But. And. And being a Muslim is okay. There's Islamophobia, but it's okay, but being a Rohingya is not. And so he's in the closet, like he's a Rohingya. His Rohingya family is in the closet. And they have to, they could be outwardly Muslim, but within the home, the particular kind of Rohingya aspects of culture, of food, of language, of identity of, you know, Rohingya Islam, which, as with, you know, many different religions would be separate from how it's practiced in other, other sects. All of that he has to keep private. And he, and we talk about how over the years, as he starts to trust different Buddhist friends very carefully, starts to tease out and then open up to a select few. I'm actually Rohingya, you know, that's how careful he has to be with his identity, even though he could be Muslim. But he, you know, this is something that can put everything at risk. And you have to know who can. Especially in this time of the 2010s when you have not just Islamophobia but, you know, anti Rohingya. Yeah, the genocide, you know, exploding up. Who do you trust with revealing, you know, what you actually are in this society? Well, then the story advances further and he ends up becoming a doctor on the front lines of the revolution. So he is actually, you know, in the liberated areas treating the, the leading medical trainings and saving lives and working with fighters and others that are over there. And so we then again talk openly about how he's able to express his identity and, and claim his identity. And he says clearly, he's like, there is no problem here. Like, I, I. The first word out of my mouth is that I'm Rohingya. I'm accepted. My children play with their children. And I was listening to this and I'm like, oh my God. I mean, I can't think, I can't but think of Martin Luther King Jr.
- [72:48]
B
I can't like fathom like a Burma like that because I've seen a different exact.
- [72:52]
A
And that's why I'm saying that that's why these layers are so important. And I think it's so important for our listeners and for me to understand this ground level of terror that you're describing. But then we, you know, as is the case so often with Burma, these, these perspectives are never the whole picture. And so how do you take the perspective of the terror that you des with Dr. K's story of, of, of, you know, being open with his identity and his family and being integrated into every Burmese space and the liberated areas and in Mesa that he finds Being able. You know, children are playing together and families are. Are hanging out. His best friend is a fellow doctor that's a Burmese Buddhist.
- [73:30]
B
And wow.
- [73:30]
A
It's the two of them together that are leading their whole initiatives. As an aside, our nonprofit humanitarian mission, Better Burma, we were able to fund them. And so I want to give a highlight to all of our donors that have given, you know, everything that we do is powered on the backs of individual donors that are. That are. That are believing in our mission and giving to us. And so from the donations that we're getting, we are. We are funding the initiatives that Dr. K and his. His Burmese Buddhist partner, Dr. Sunshine is his name. These are obviously pseudonyms. Both of them have been on the podcast. But. But we are believing in their mission so much that we are, you know, funding the trainings and the medicine and the clinics and, you know, the extreme risk. Risk. I mean, both of them are on the radar of. Of the military and trying to track them down and stop them and, you know, but what they are building, this coalition they are building, which is not, you know, it's just an aside. Their identities are. Are just who they happen to be. That's not how they came together, but what they are doing with those identities and along with that and, and the future that they're not just suggesting it is possible, but that they're actually living out. When you go to those regions of areas and Mesa, you know, this is an extraordinary contrast with having a door closed in your face. But both of those realities are true. You know, both of them are coexisting
- [74:46]
B
and they both very much. Yeah, you're right. They very much exist at the same time and for their own respective circumstances.
- [74:52]
A
Yeah, that's right. And so. And it really, it does blow your mind to think about how, you know, all these different directions that, that the country and society are now going in.
- [75:04]
B
Absolutely, absolutely.
- [75:07]
A
I also want to prompt you because as we get more into this kind of diversity of Muslim identity, you also reference exploring both Shia and. And Sunni communities and mosque. So can you talk a bit about that?
- [75:20]
B
Yes, that was very surprising for me on that, like the. I. Because in. In. In Muslim culture, I expected the mosques just to be like, you know, just a regular mosque mosque. But it was not like that. Like. And that's where you realize how diverse Yangon is or. And I can't imagine what it was like at its peak because there would be a Sunni mosque, but a Sunni mosque specific to the Tamil community, a Sunni mosque specific to the Gujarati community. Now for Context for people who aren't Muslims, that means that the Friday sermon over there would probably be in Tamil or it would be in Gujarati. So, like, and you have to be from a specific Sunni sect, which is mind blowing, because that is how specific the mosque is. I've never been to any mosque like that in the world where it's that specific. And then the Shia mosque was, like, for. Specifically for the Shia community. And when I went there, over there, again, like, they were big fans of reciters, like, Shia reciters from Pakistan, which was interesting. But these people, like, the sermons over there were all in Burmese. Like, I would see all of that. So it was like seeing these multiple layers. Like, I have never been to a city like Yangon or Rangoon in. In my life. And like, I was like, wow. That's all I can say.
- [76:34]
A
Yeah, you reference. And I might be pronouncing the name wrong. Nadeem Sarwar.
- [76:38]
B
Yes, Nadeem Sarwar. Like, they were huge fans of Nadeem Sarwar, and Nadim Sarwar recites in Urdu, but these people understood Urdu.
- [76:45]
A
So what is that to give us context of what a reciter is, who Nadeem Sarwar is, what it means to your community and where you come from, and the fact that this is a known entity in Burma. Can you flesh that out for those that wouldn't understand all that context?
- [76:57]
B
Okay, so, like, in. In Shia culture, they have these popular reciters who recite these lamentations of the tragedy that happened at Karbala. Karbala was one of the biggest tragedies in Islam, but that's also where the split between Shia and Sunni Islam happens. So these people, these reciters, they recite these lamentations, these sad poems on the tragedy, and they'll recite those. And these sad poems really make you feel things. It's like, so, like, Nadeem Sarwar is. Is like, he's like a superstar in that world. Like, he's huge. And even in Pakistan, he's huge. So, like, when I go there and everything, they're like, oh, you're. Where are you from, brother? I was like, I'm from Pakistan. They're like, oh, Pakistan, we love Nadeem Sarwar. I was like, that was the last thing I expected to hear, because Nadeem Sarwar, like, again, you have to be in the Shia culture to know him. Like, you get what I'm saying? Like, probably in the greater Muslim culture, they might not know him, but you have to be in the Shia culture. Then you would understand. Okay, he's pretty big over there. But now like, and he's in the Urdu speaking Shia culture. Now I'm here in Burma, in Yangon and I'm meeting this person who's like from here and they're saying, oh, we love Nadeem Sir. I was like, and then I asked, I was like, do you understand what he's saying? They're like, yeah, of course we understand what he's saying. But then when you are over there and you hear the sermons happening at the mosque, they were all in Burmese and it's like again like, you know, it's kind of like your brain is doing somersaults at the same time.
- [78:27]
A
Yeah.
- [78:28]
B
You're like, how do you like, you know, like that kind of thing you're asking. Like. I feel like one thing which I can take away from my trip was that I have come back with more questions than answers. Like I have. Yeah.
- [78:40]
A
Burma has a way of doing that.
- [78:41]
B
Yes.
- [78:42]
A
Yeah.
- [78:43]
B
How? Why? Like, I felt like I went for more, a lot of questions and but I came back with a lot more.
- [78:50]
A
It has a way of getting under your skin, you know, it has a way of, of, of really being the one place that people can't let go of and wanting to, for, you know, for so many reasons including, you know, the tragedy and the possibility of the greater future that's ahead of them that they're working towards. And as you're, you know, so you're talking about this, these diverse Muslim communities and if we just take the ring out for a moment because we've, we've, we've gone into, you know, their identity and where they fit in. But if you just, if we look at the diversity outside of the, the, the Rohingya, you have, you know, you have Shia and Sunni, but then you also have the regions and the languages where they're coming from. The, you know, whether it's Tamil or Gujarat or, or other places, then you also, but in, in addition there, there are other kind of substrains of, of ethnicities that you identify as well, including Sirtee and mem names that I think for many of us, you know, we, we don't even actually know what these communities are and so can well reference them but then also break down where this kind of Pan Muslim or South Asian identity that you're seeing and communities you're seeing.
- [80:00]
B
But you know, the interesting thing is like when like there's a Surti mosque, there's a Maimon mosque, Suis and Maimons in Karachi are big businessmen. So every, if you live in Karachi, you know, What a surti is. You know what a maimon is? They're big business families with links to Burma. And when you're there in Yangon, you see, oh, the Surti Masjid, the Maimon Masjid. You're like, oh, my God, of course, it makes sense now. And then the deeper I dug. And this is actually one interesting. I don't know how it slipped my mind was I met someone from a maimon community over there. Maimons are big businessmen in Karachi, like a big. And who have roots to Burma. And I actually met this guy who was taking care of the mosque, and I asked him and he was like, yeah, I have family in Karachi and everything. I was like, oh, so, like, you're still here? He's like, yeah, when the long march happened, he's like, I'll. He said it. And then I was like, ah, he knows, he knows, he knows. And then I. I was like. Then I was like, uncle, let's get some chai. I need to eat your brains right now. Because someone. Someone brought this up. He's like, when it happened, he's like, a lot of my family left. And he's like. And he's like, a lot of my family, when they left, they left the Karachi. I was like, it makes sense. Finally, I've gotten one puzzle. One puzzle. And he's But I was like, why did you stay? He's like, oh, I take care of the mosque. And I didn't want to leave it behind. So, like, I'm here to take care of the mosque, and I live and I live, like, right next to the mosque. So. And he's like, he's like, if I would leave then this mosque then. And then I asked him, I took. I was like, I was like, oh, where does your family live in Karachi? And then I kind of got the address and everything. And then we linked up. And some of them were in the comments. Some of them were in the comments section already. And they were like, they were messaging. They were like. They're like, yeah, yeah. Like, I know my grandfather came from there and everything. So now it's kind of like, like us common people connecting history together, which is not written in history books.
- [81:47]
A
Yeah, yeah, that's right. And I mean, but what's so interesting here is that it's not. We're not just talking about one Muslim community as a part of Myanmar. We are talking about many Muslim communities. And so how did you. Again, apart from the Rohingya, because that's. That's an outlier and where this all fits in but looking at all of these diverse Muslim communities of sex, of regions, of languages, how did you feel that there was some. Some kind of overarching connection and community and solidarity among them? Or was those all. Were those also siloed?
- [82:17]
B
No, no, no. They were very connected to one another. That is one thing which I did understand. That, like, all that. It was this silent thing where the Muslims amongst themselves, like, I got that. That, like, guys, we gotta stick together. That. That's like. It's hard for all of us, but if we stick, if we watch out for one another, I think we'll be okay. And you kind of got that. Even, like, when. And this happened each and every place, whenever I had an interaction with any Muslim over there, then they would know I'm Muslim. It's like they would, in not so many words, be saying, okay, buddies, stay careful. Don't ask stupid questions like, where are you staying? Okay, if you need anything, here's my. All of them would give me their number. All of them. And this doesn't happen anywhere in the world. Random people don't give you their numbers. They don't give you their number. See? But they would be like. They were like, here's my number if you need anything, I live on this street. Or like, if this isn't my number, if you can't get through to me, this is my son's number. And, like, it's like, in not so many words, all of them would be like, we got you. We got you. And I feel like the Muslims over there in Burma, they've understood the trick. They've understood the trick. That don't stand out too much. Yeah, we face Islamophobia, that's fine, whatever. But, like, we'll just look the other way. As long as we put our heads down and we stick to one another, we'll be okay. And I think that's the overarching theme. And one thing, another thing which I understood, I guess, which is like, another interesting thing I want to touch upon is that I guess because of how colonialism played out and how South Asians ended up in Burma, the South Asians are the privileged class in Yangon, which is very. And it was very interesting for me to reflect on my own privilege over there as a South Asian, because as a South Asian, you don't feel privileged anywhere, like, where you're traveling. But when I'm in Yangon, when I'm in Rangoon, I'm viewed as someone with money, which is very different. I'm viewed as a dollar sign. They would be like, if we'd go to a restaurant or I'd go to a club or somewhere, I would get the best seats. Like, people, they would talk to me. They were like, oh yeah, sit here. Oh yeah. That kind of thing. It doesn't happen anywhere else in the world. Like, and, and. And even like all the Muslims that I interacted with, again, the ones like, we're taking the Rohingya out of the equation, they were all relatively wealthy or they relatively had shops in bougieokaya Market. They worked in the downtown. Even the guys that I hung out with. This is actually an interesting thing, is like in not so many conversations, like, I brought up Aung Sam Suchi. I was like, okay, we're talking about Rohingya. Let's might as well address the elephant and the other elephant in the room. And I was like, did you guys. I was like, how. How has things been and everything? And one of them just said, they're like, he's. He's like, oh yeah. We had an idea a week before that it would happen. And I was like, I think these guys must be very connected. They must be very like. And this was a group of like, people. And. And again, I did not understand where the wealth was coming from, but they had wealth, they had land. They took me to farm. Farms. It's very interesting how South Asians are viewed there. Yes, there is the racism aspect of it. Like, I guess there is this deep. But at the same time, you're also. There is also an aspect of privilege over there. And I feel like a lot of the South Asians still to this day hold on to a lot of wealth in Burma, which does. Which doesn't make sense, but also makes sense when you look into the historical context of it.
- [85:53]
A
It. And so when you asked about Aung San SUU Kyi and, and, and from the aspect of the promise that she represented and the change from the military, I know that they're from marginalized groups there. There are complicated feelings about her because certainly Aung San SUU Kyi is. Is a far better improvement than the military. No one questions that. And yet, you know, she didn't quite live up to her promise. The many hopes. So did. Did they reference how they felt about her leadership before?
- [86:20]
B
You know, the interesting thing was like, the very interesting thing. Yes. When you talk about Rohingya, people get uncomfortable. They would not all talk openly and everything and all that stuff. If you say military, they kind of dance around it. But you say Aung San SUU Kyi. Everyone Says, oh, no, she was great. Not one person minced their words, even in today's Burma. Like, they were like, no, it was much more better. Or how they would refer to, you know, like how they would refer to history. Like when they were like, oh, yeah, during Aung San SUU Kyi times, things were different. Aung San SUU Kyi times, it wasn't like very long ago, but they talk about it like a golden era, or they'll be like, oh, yeah, we only had democracy 10 years. Oh, it could have been better if they gave her a chance. Not one person, despite the fear there is over there, minced their words. They were like, no, she was much better than what we have right now.
- [87:11]
A
And despite. I mean, that's incredibly interesting hearing that, because Aung San SUU Kyi fell out of favor internationally, largely because of the.
- [87:19]
B
Exactly.
- [87:20]
A
Her. Yep, yep. Her, her role. And, and, and some of the things that she did that made some feel that she was complicit. Although, you know, obviously she did not take part in the operations and, and, and the military did that. But the way that she represented it, that was the, the. By far the biggest reason that, you know, so much of the tide changed about her. And so to then have a Muslim community on the ground expressing this to you, that's, that's, that's quite fascinating because
- [87:46]
B
I, I guess, you know, at the end of the day, I was also looking at, from the point of economics also, and a lot of them, when you talk to them deeper and everything, because a lot of them are businessmen over there, and they're like, business is bad right now. The economy knows that. The currencies know that. During Aung San SUU Kyi times, everything was great. And that's how they would say it all the time. They're like, oh, yeah, Aung San SUU Kyi was great. We had great business. We were trading so well, and it's saying, this is how much the dollar is. And they were talking very much in business terms, and they were like, we were doing. Although they're all doing very well right now also. But I can't imagine how well they were doing during Aung San SUU Kyi times, which was probably much more different. And they had tourists.
- [88:25]
A
And that's really interesting, because if you are able to accept some degree of assimilation and your identity issues, and those are not the driving factor, because Aung San SUU Kyi, during her time, Brahmanization policies didn't really get much better than the Brahmanization narrative. And so if you just are able to kind of compartmentalize and not. And if you're of an older generation where you're not really, you know, idealistic enough to, to hope for a difference along the lines of Dr. K and what he's, what he's up to, then there's a way to just say, okay, we'll leave these, you know, okay, we'll assimilate. We won't show our full identity. We won't accept that the state will really acknowledge and appreciate our diversity. But we're safe and we have economic opportunities. We're not being overtly oppressed. That's about as much as we could hope for. And by those metrics, maybe things are good.
- [89:14]
B
And, you know, I don't think it's changed because. And that's exactly how the Muslims, I think, are today. They're like, yeah, it's fine, it's not that bad. And that's what all of them would say, it's not that bad. Just put your head down. It's fine. Just assimilate, do better. It's fine. But when you're looking at it as an outsider, like, I've just come here for a few days and I'm going to go. But I was like, I like, wow, that is like erasure. And that is like full blown. I was like, how can I live like this? But for them, it's a way of life. It's very much there.
- [89:46]
A
Yeah, right. And I mean, that's something, again, you see with marginalized groups across generations and other contexts that a younger generation is not willing to want to put up with things that the older generation does as necessary to want to survive and keep their head down. So, yeah, there's, there's different layers and, and then a final thing I want to touch on, and you've, you've mentioned it throughout this conversation, but just to hit it head on, and it's a great note to end on. Is, is the food. What did you find of authentic Burmese food and, and South Asian connections in Burma and then how that related to kind of Burmese inspired food that you would have back in Pakistan?
- [90:23]
B
Oh, my God. Like Burmese food. I don't. The cuisine blew my mind because I've never, you know, again, the interesting thing, this is also an interesting thing, is like, I never understood why we have crispy things, why we add crispy things in very Pakistani dishes. Like we'll add spicy chips or we'll add peanuts. But it's not a part of Pakistani culture. Like, it's not. But we're always told, oh, yeah, it came from Burma. Like, that's an answer. But when you start having Burmese dishes, you realize that the crisp is very much a part of each dish. Dish. Like. Like, they will have these crispy fritters. Like, you'll have it in Mohinga. You'll even have it in salads. They'll add. They'll. In la Pete salad, they'll add peanuts over there. So, like. Like in Burmese cuisine, you realize there are layers there. So there's the sweet, there's the spicy, there's the crispiness. Like, a lot of love go. Like. Like, my mouth is watering up right now talking about it, but a lot of love goes into it. So, yeah, I thoroughly enjoyed the cuisine. Like, I would have Mohinga, like, every day. I. And then I realized it's a breakfast dish. I was like, you have this. I was like. I was like. I was like, for breakfast. But I would have it. I would have it for lunch, I would have it for dinner. I'd have it every day. Then the salads were very different. Then there's a tea salad. I was like, how could you have a salad with tea? But somehow it works. It works completely. And the sha noodles. Yeah. Like, Burmese cuisine. Like, I feel like it's a very underrated cuisine, like, all in the world. And I feel like more people should eat and it.
- [91:59]
A
And then how about the. Again, the Pakistan Burma connections as far as cuisine goes?
- [92:04]
B
Khao khaos is like, we have khao soi. But I'll tell you what khao soi is. Khao suh is. It's a very specific kind of khao soi. There's one. I think it's called. Oh, no, Khao soi. I think that's how you. I don't know how you pronounce coconut noodles. Yeah, coconut noodles, exactly. We don't call it oh, no cow. We just call it khao soi. But it is. Basically what we have is. It's coconut noodles, which is cooked in the coconut curry. And it's very much a part of Karachi culture, and it's specifically brought by the maimons, the Maimon community which used to live in Burma. And it's kind of a treat to have it. And now when I go to, like, I go to Burma, I was like, oh, yeah, I want khalse. And the guy looks like. He's like, which one? He's like, khalso is noodles. I was like, oh, okay. Shit. Who. Which one?
- [92:54]
A
That's Hilarious.
- [92:56]
B
And, and, and she, she. She was like, you're wasting my time. Tell me which one. And, and, and like, if. Anyone who's been to Yangon, if the menu is not all, most of the time will not be in English. So you have to, like. So. And then I. Then here I am, like, trying to describe which one I want. I was.
- [93:16]
A
It's. It's hilarious to think about going into a noodle shop and saying, and I want noodles.
- [93:20]
B
Yeah, that's exactly over here. I was trying to explain to people. They're like, no, no. So what I was like, it's literally like in Pakistan, you're saying, I want rice. They're like, they're like, yes, yes, yes. They're like, which rice do you want? Do you want biryani? Do you want Palau? Which one? So that's exactly what it was like. Because she was looking. She. I was like. And you know, like, I felt like I'm like a very cultured person. I'm gonna go like, I got this. I was like, I want cows. So, yeah, she's like, who's this dumb tourist? So then I had to explain. I was like, no, like coconut and all that crispy. And she said, ah, you want. Oh, no, khao soi. I was like, yes, I think that's the one.
- [93:56]
A
And the noodle salad. I don't know if you got a noodle salad, but that's a whole other thing.
- [94:00]
B
It's another world. It's another world. And. And you know, like, I guess it also. It's also like, sorry if I. If I. If this gets a bit like, you know, like, sad or anything, but the sadness is that because permanent history has always been so closed off. And then you got 10 years of democracy and then it's closed off again. I feel like the world doesn't know about, like, this great cuisine because it's. Because of its circumstances. And when you go there, like, even if I was there for a short time, I was like, I wish I had more time just to explore this cuisine. Yeah. Also adding on to this, even the Muslim cuisine over there, there is a familiarity, but it's another world. Like Burmese Muslim cuisine, another world. They have their own biryani. They have something called a goat dosa. A goat dosa. You don't get that anywhere else in South Asia. Dosa comes from South India, Tamil culture. But goat in a dosa, I don't know where that came from, but that's very much there. And they have a dosa, which they put Tea leaves in them. So it's a kind of like a lapet salad, but you mix it with dosa. So it's like the mix, it's like the fusion of Burmese and Tamil cultures meeting in food. So extraordinary. Extraordinary. And then there's, there's, there's a biryani which was cooked in a coconut curry. So I was like, I was like, I understand this, this is South Asia meeting Burma. It's like a Burmese and a South Asian having a child. So, yeah, incredible.
- [95:20]
A
So it's very much, you know, this is reminding me. I want to, I want to reference another episode we did with a, a Burmese chef named Trish. And she has come to use food storytelling as an activism device where she is, she is. And this kind of gets to, you know, what we're talking about how with state controlled mechanisms, they encourage this lack of curiosity and staying in silos. And so she lives in Chiang Mai and she's tried to encourage going and learning all of these different ethnic and religious and geographical dishes that you find in Burma and using them as a way to inspire kind of curiosity in a very low risk and low stakes way of just simply, if you're just curious about someone else's food. Food, if you're just eating their food, learning how it comes. Because again, you live in these such siloed communities there where we're not just talking about religious or historical structures, but also just the various, you know, stalls and restaurants. Often different communities go to their respective places to eat and there's not even much intermixing with that. And so if you just get people to be curious and want to eat each other's food, that is a gr. That's a beautiful grassroots way, as Trish is doing, to be able to then open up wider conversations of saying, oh, so you eat this. Let me learn about where that comes from and take in a way to a new Myanmar.
- [96:41]
B
Exactly. And I think that's the best way to start it. Like, I guess even me, just as an outsider, I just got insight just because I ate different foods. I was just curious. Just ended up at this place. I don't know what it's called. It was DOSA 99 or something. I was like, what's this dosa with this Burmese salad doing? And then you start asking questions, then you're like, what's this biryani cooked in coconut curry? And then you ask questions. And it was a very interesting story, actually. It was a Muslim South Asian man who had a Burmese wife. And they actually did make that Food. I was like, wow. Yeah. So, like, I mean, I hope for a new Burma. Burma that is where like all these cultures can thrive more openly and people can have those conversations.
- [97:20]
A
And you know what's also interesting with that? So we've talked about the Burmese connections of food, how it's influenced Pakistan the other way around. And you also mentioned we're South Asian and food has come to play a role in Burma. But in my own case, you know, when I, When I first started living in Burma, I. And everything was foreign to me and also trying to figure out kind of what fit with what. I remember the first time I encountered Briani and I had. I didn't even know how to pronounce the name. And I. And just looking at the section like kind of on a Noyata road in downtown Yangon where a lot of the Briani shops are, there was just something in that. You're. You're making me recall. There was something in my mind that was like, there's. There's something about the way these shops look and the way they cook their food, the way you look at their kitchens, the way the food is. It. It feels different from this other kind of food I've been eating. And it was just this confusion in me of like, well, well, well, where, you know, and the people that were there seemed different. They seemed to be. They looked and they dressed differently than the people in the other kind of more Burmese shops I was going in. And it took many years to start to realize this strange thing I had never heard of called Bryani and what this was and how I'd go to eat it. That like, oh, this, this was an influence that came from another place and then integrated into Burmese cooking. And it was, or maybe didn't integrate, but was. Was available in Burma. And so I was. Whereas for you, it was this kind of instant recognition, familiarity. For me, it was more of a puzzle that I was like, wait a second. Well, does this go with that? And where. Where's this? And then when I traveled other place, it was like, oh, they have that thing that I would get in that part in Anoyata, like Briani. That's what it was. And absolutely. And. And so, yeah, it's interesting how it all comes together.
- [98:54]
B
Absolutely. Like, and that's the beauty of migration, that's the beauty of culture, like where you put all these foods and everything just comes together. Even the clothing, by the way, like when people, people wear lungis over here also. And when you look at that, that's kind of like the national dress over there. Then I came to realize how different communities have different lungis also. And people wear it in Bangladesh also. They wear it over here also. People just embraced one another's culture more. That would be. Be such a more beautiful society.
- [99:23]
A
So with that, you know, I thank you for sharing this, this real kind of inside look of an experience into Myanmar that I think many of us haven't had exactly in this way. And, and this learning of where it fits into the wider issues that we're seeing.
- [99:40]
B
My final reflection for the audience is that Myanmar, a lot of people see Myanmar, Burma, very much in black and white, like in very much good, bad and everything. But. But the story is much. There's a lot of gray over here. It's. It's a very complex country, but it's also a very beautiful country. And again, like 135 nationalities live there. Different ethnic groups live there. I would say that do not just stereotype it based on the headlines that you've seen. Yes, it is dangerous. Yes, it is a war zone. Yes, things aren't perfect, but I would say talk to a Burmese and talk to someone from there. And that could be your starting point to understanding this complex country. And another thing is also. Yeah. And acknowledge. And also at the same time, to also all the travel influencers who are going there, just stop posting all that content where you're saying everything is okay and because you're erasing the suffering of a lot of people over there.
- [100:59]
A
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- [101:57]
B
Now. This.