Tales of the Tape

Summary

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Insight Myanmar Podcast: "Tales of the Tape" – Friedgard Loadermoser, Part VI

August 10, 2026

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Episode Overview

This sixth installment in the highly anticipated series featuring Friedgard Loadermoser delves deeply into the intertwined spiritual, historical, and institutional dimensions of Burmese meditation traditions—especially as they relate to Sayagyi U Ba Khin, SN Goenka, and their transmission to the West. The episode is structured around firsthand recollections, incisive analysis, and posthumous reflections from Friedgard—a German-born scholar, long-term practitioner, and bhikkhuni who lived through pivotal moments in modern Myanmar.

Anchoring the conversation is a nuanced exploration of how Buddhist meditation teachings, particularly Vipassana, were preserved, adapted, and exported, along with the controversies and subtleties that emerged in crossing cultural contexts. Key themes include lineage and purity claims, the use of recorded instructions, gender in Buddhist monasticism, and the responsibilities and realities of transmitting living traditions.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Significance of Friedgard Loadermoser

• Background: Friedgard’s life bridges German academia, the lived Buddhist tradition in Myanmar, female ordination, and the spread of Burmese meditation in the West. Her testimony is emphasized as a rare, living record that challenges official narratives and offers a deeply personal, multi-layered perspective.
  • Host: “Each one adds context, texture and emotional weight... These interviews are not isolated episodes so much as chapters in a much larger story.” [01:25]
• Impact: Through her experiences, Friedgard became a crucial voice in discussions on authenticity, gender, transmission, and the living tradition of Burmese meditation.

2. Commentary and Multiple Narratives

• Host’s Reflection: The series intentionally supplements Friedgard’s interviews with both Burmese and Western perspectives, underscoring the richness of her life strains: gender equality in Buddhism; institutional transmission; political and spiritual tyranny; and the subtle interplay between spiritual progress, history, and scholarship.
  • Host: “It’s... hard to even kind of recognize how they all fit there and how they all fit together.” [13:10]
• Burmese Perspective: Burmese commentators emphasize Friedgard’s unique positionality—having direct experience in the post-coup era— and her advocacy for female monastic revival. There’s appreciation for her respect and care for Burmese people and culture, contrasting with some Westerners who engaged only with technique.
  • Burmese Practitioner: “She act like a Burmese, you know, she care about... our country. She care about Burmese people.” [24:57]

3. Memory, Authority, and Silence

• Host on Oral History: While valuing Friedgard’s direct testimony, the episode acknowledges the fallibility and subjectivity of human memory.
  • Host: “Oral history remains human memory... two people can witness the same event and remember it differently.” [187:28]
• Risk and Modesty: Friedgard agreed to these recordings on the strict condition they not be released in her lifetime, due to concerns over institutional repercussions and her own modesty.

4. Transmission of Lineage & Purity Claims

• Lineage Debates: Friedgard contrasts the fluid, inclusive approach to “lineage” in Burma with the exclusive, codified “pristine purity” claimed in Goenka’s movement abroad.
  • Quote, Friedgard: “If you as a Burmese Buddhist emphasize that you have the lineage of Lady Seaddaw, it would be ridiculous. It’s like if you’re a Lutheran Christian... you don’t have to say I’m particularly saintly because I believe in Martin Luther.” [61:47]
• Historical Context: “Pristine purity” was a phrase widely used to distinguish Theravada from Mahayana, not to claim sole access to unbroken technique lineage.
  • Friedgard: “In the time when I was in Burma under the new government, they were always saying that Theravada is the pristine teaching of the Lord Buddha as he originally taught it... But that is Vinaya law. It is not connected with meditation.” [76:57]

5. Standardization, Tapes, and the ‘Muzzle’

• Goenka’s Influence: Goenka’s transition to standardized taped instructions (rather than live, individualized teaching) is discussed as both a democratizing and limiting move.
  • Host paraphrasing Friedgard: “It was like placing a muzzle on teachers... They were prevented from speaking freely and making full use of their talents.” [32:15]
• Rationale and Consequence: The senior teacher commentary (paraphrased by the host) defends standardization as a practical response to rapid expansion, but acknowledges the risk of fossilized, context-insensitive rules.
  • Host quoting teacher: “...rules becoming fossilized. A guideline created in response to one situation can gradually become an absolute rule.” [187:28]
• Friedgard’s Reflections: While Friedgard was surprised by the efficacy of tapes, she lamented the loss of personal teacher-student adaptability and the suppression of teaching talents.
  • Quote, Friedgard: “All these assistant teachers who are using the tapes... they may have talents... but they have their own talents. And that couldn’t have happened if the technology to have these tapes didn’t exist.” [132:55]

6. Aditanā (Vow/Determination) as Psychological and Spiritual Power

• Friedgard’s personal vows (learning from U Ba Khin, becoming a nun) are highlighted as formative in her Dhamma journey—mirrored in U Ba Khin’s use of determination for societal crisis (the Karen siege of Rangoon).
  • Quote, Friedgard: “I have taken only three vows in all my life and almost all of them got completed... That convinced me really of the... mental power of making a dīṭṭhāna.” [52:38]
• The discussion links these to wider Burmese practice, where vows are integrated into both spiritual and worldly actions.

7. Integrated Life & Engaged Buddhism

• U Ba Khin’s Example: His vow and protective recitation during the Karen insurgency is interpreted as meditation moving into the political/social sphere—though the senior teacher reframes it as natural Dhamma integration rather than “Engaged Buddhism.”
  • Friedgard’s Story of Upatasanti Recitation: “And then what happened? After one week the Karen withdrew and the city was saved. That is the power of Aditana. That was U Ba Khin’s way of making peace.” [43:20]

8. Gender and Bhikkhuni Revival

• Friedgard’s commitment to female ordination (bhikkhuni) is discussed as both personal and principled, argued to be in the spirit of original, practical Buddhism.
  • Burmese Practitioner: “I really admire her to use her popularity or her voice to raise for the woman, you know, kind of thing.” [11:29]
• Her perspective on the loss of full ordination for women is seen as a loss for all of Buddhism.

9. Dharma Transmission, Mythology, and Institutional Critique

• Myth-Making: Goenka’s adaptation and tightening of lineage narratives for Indian and Western audiences is framed as both a legitimatizing tool and a cause of insularity.
  • Host: “The mythology kind of paints over the existence of these decisions or sacrifices happening... It’s almost like manifest destiny.” [120:42]
• Honest Critique & Nuance: Both the host and the senior teacher urge listeners to hold ambiguity: gratitude does not preclude criticism, and respect for tradition need not devolve into silence.
  • Host: “Critics should consider how they hold and express their concerns. Definitely. Teachers and organizations, on the other hand, must also be capable of hearing these concerns without pathologizing the people who voice them.” [187:28]

10. Cultural and Historical Contexts in Meditation Transmission

• Comparison is drawn between how different traditions (U Ba Khin, Goenka, Mahasi, Sunlun, Webu Sayadaw) operated alongside each other with varying degrees of interchange, rivalry, and hybridization.
  • Host: “What I so admire is that she is... dedicated to the practice, but there’s a big place in her heart for the people in the country that she’s in.” [21:15]
• Emphasized is also how adapting to audience and circumstance (pedagogy) is necessary and context-dependent, rather than mere packaging.
  • Host (paraphrased): “Knowing who’s in front of you and preserving the Dhamma in terms that person can understand...”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Friedgard: “If as a Burmese Buddhist you emphasize that you have the lineage of Lady Seaddaw, it would be ridiculous. It’s like... all the non-Catholic Christians are all followers of Luther. You don’t have to say I’m particularly saintly because I believe in Martin Luther.” [61:47]

Burmese Practitioner: “She act like a Burmese, you know, she care about our country. She care about Burmese people... if I know her... personally, it would be like, great because... I will benefit from her, you know, like getting a role model and who care about us...” [24:57]

Host (on myth versus history): “It’s almost like manifest destiny. There was fate and a destiny of one way things could progress, and that’s this pristine purity of a specific lineage that has brought these teachings unchanged until today.” [120:42]

Host (on Aditanā): “Whatever accumulation of good that you’ve done, you recognize that you hold it and you harness it... There’s nothing too small that is meaningful for that.” [152:38]

Friedgard: “I have taken only three vows in all my life and almost all of them got completed... The moment you need is... staking my life. I will do whatever I can. You have to come to that point...” [52:38]

Host: “This is criticism without complete rejection, and gratitude without idealization.” [187:28]

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Timeline of Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Topic | |---------------|-----------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:02-01:25 | Introduction: Initial reflections on tapes, scientific skepticism | | 01:25-06:41 | Overview of Friedgard’s life and context | | 06:41-15:45 | Burmese Practitioner discusses Friedgard’s unique position | | 15:45-24:01 | Role of gender, unique Burmese spiritual context | | 24:01-32:15 | Host and Burmese Practitioner on lived Buddhism, integration, agency | | 32:15-43:20 | Commentary on absence of Goenka teacher’s perspective; editorial ethos| | 43:20-53:07 | Friedgard: U Ba Khin, Upatasanti vow, vows in Burmese life | | 53:07-79:22 | Exploring lineage, Lady Sayadaw, Mahasi, Webu Sayadaw, Sun Lun | | 79:22-100:36 | Purity claims, myth-making, teacher framing, Indian/Western contexts | | 100:36-135:11 | Debate on tapes, teacher capacity, pros and cons of standardization | | 135:11-144:29 | Closing thoughts from Friedgard and appreciation | | 144:29-186:58 | Burmese Practitioner: Top takeaways; role of Lady Sayadaw; meditation history parallels; gender and transmission | | 187:28-205:25 | Host shares senior Goenka teacher’s (withheld) commentary |

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Flow & Structure Recap

• The episode seamlessly interlaces narrative, critical reflection, and commentary from diverse perspectives.
• The tone is respectful, inquisitive, and transparently reflective—often acknowledging complexity and nuance.
• Both direct experience and institutional analysis are valued, with repeated reminders to honor multiple stories.
• There is strong encouragement of “holding space” for both gratitude and critique—a modeling for spiritual communities everywhere.

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Conclusion: Why This Episode Matters

Tales of the Tape is at once a historical document, a meditation on the living transmission of Dhamma, and a case study in how institutions balance preservation and adaptation. Through Friedgard’s testimony, institutional voices, and layered commentary, the listener is exposed to the beauty and challenge of practicing at the intersection of personal vow, spiritual ideal, and the realities of human organizations.

“Her story interrupts the single story with the intervention of a lived experience speaking to us in the present day.” [32:15]

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For meditators, historians, and anyone invested in questions of authenticity, tradition, and personal transformation, this episode illuminates the living, breathing complexities behind the global spread of Burmese meditation practice.

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Transcript

[Friedgard Loadermoser]

They don't want to be Buddhists. For the Indians, it is important that he says, it's not Buddha, it's Dhamma. When I first heard these tapes in Germany, tapes by Goenka, I said, what?

[Burmese Practitioner]

What?

[Friedgard Loadermoser]

And then I listened to the tape and it worked. I was very surprised. I scratched my head trying to find a scientific explanation why the tape worked. Because the person is not there. It's only the sound on the tape. The university never materialized in the end, what they did, they offered an air conditioned course at the Big Pagoda in Bombay. Air condition. Is it necessary? What say Atababa jeevitam in the hands of the teacher? Yeah, you give submit yourself and your life into the hands of the teacher. It's part of the procedure. And that was also used by Ubekin in Burmese. But a foreigner, I never heard it because then I wouldn't have run away on day one of my first course.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

This is the sixth interview in our special series with Freed Guard Loadermoser, and we do encourage listeners to go back and hear the conversations that came before this one. These interviews, which we are now finding is the most anticipated content we've ever worked on on this platform, they are not isolated episodes so much as chapters in a much larger story, and each one adds context, texture and emotional weight to the because the material is so rich, it's layered with history, insight and spirit. We're releasing each episode with special guest commentators who speak briefly before the interview as they share a general reflection on Freed Guard's life and then again afterwards for a deeper reflection on this particular episode to give some background on Freedgard. She was a German born scholar, meditation practitioner, a Buddhist nun and a lifelong friend of Myanmar whose life intersected with many of the spiritual and political developments that shape modern Burma. Born in Germany in 1942, she came of age in the shadow of war and dictatorship there before moving to Burma with her family as a teenager in 1959. What began as a family relocation soon became the defining passage of her life because it was in Rangoon where Friedgaard learned the Burmese language. She immersed herself in the culture, and she gradually entered deeply into the country's Buddhist world. She became a devoted disciple of Seiyaji Ubaken at the International Meditation center, practicing under him for more than a decade and absorbing not only his method of Vipassana, but also the living atmosphere of a tradition that was still largely rooted in Burma itself. She also spent time with revered teachers such as Webu Sayada and Magandion Sayada while pursuing Academic studies in Pali at the universities in Rangoon and Mandalay. Even after the 1962 military coup, when many foreigners were forced to leave the country, Friedgaard managed to remain in Burma to continue her studies and practice. Later, after returning to Germany, she helped support the early spread of Seijubakin's Vipassana lineage in Europe, while continuing her own scholarly work in Buddhist texts and poly literature. In her later years, Freedgard ordained as a seminar taking the Pali name Akinsina. She became a strong advocate for the revival of the Bhikkhuni order not as any sort of political gesture, but as something she believed was rooted in the practical and egalitarian spirit of early Buddhism. For her, the loss of full ordination for women was not only a loss for women, but it was a loss for the Buddhist world itself. Friedgaard also remained deeply bound to Myanmar. The 2021 coup brought her great sorrow and anger, and she saw the military's violence not only political crime, but as a profound spiritual failure. Yet she never lost her hope that the Burmese people could one day emerge from decades of oppression into a future marked by freedom, dignity, and compassion. As a final note, Friedgaard agreed to share her story with Insight Myanmar on one condition, that none of these recordings be released while she was still alive. In truth, it took a long time to convince her to speak at all. She was naturally modest, reluctant to place herself at center of any attention, and cautious about discussing certain aspects of her life and experiences on the record. She also feared that her honest reflections, particularly where they diverge from official organizational narratives, might jeopardize her ability to continue attending long courses in the Goenka tradition. In all, we recorded nearly 45 hours of material with her, including 20 hours of video interviews filmed in person in Sri Lanka shortly before her passing. Taken together, these conversations stand as a rare testament to a life lived in service of the Dhamma and an enduring solidarity with the Burmese people. With that, let's listen to this installment.

[Burmese Practitioner]

Jam.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

Hey, thank you for joining us.

[Burmese Practitioner]

Thank you for inviting me. I first know about Frugard from your, you know, your platform, your Facebook page. And, like, you're right about the opportunity when she passed away. And I, at that time, I was like, you know, like, this is the first time I had her name. And she's something that most of the, let's say that Burmese generation like meditation, like, kind of like who? Like, you know, meditator. Don't really know about that. And I think that her story is, like, very unique because she spent time in Myanmar where Not a lot of foreigner are present at the time because, like, at the time, you know, the 1962 coup, the NE Win is generally kicking out all the, like, you know, foreign people. And even the foreign people who have a Burmese, like, mace, you know, Englo people, they. They are, like, forced to le. So. So, like, making like, Bama, like, cut off from the rest of the world. And at the time, she stayed there and not just like, she stayed, you know, she practiced meditation and the Siaji UBA came. And I think that she also, like, practiced with the Mahagenda in Seattle. So I think that, you know, she have a lot of, like, interesting, like, insight that most of the younger generation didn't know about it. And yes, I think that if she is very special and even like, you know, when we look at, like, you know, try to like, understand the meditation history of, like, Myanmar, not a lot of, like, knowledge. We got it. And. But for her, she, despite. She is not, you know, Burmese and she know a lot of the things that most Burmese didn't know because she. She got access to the U Bah kin and, you know, the system. So I think that, yes, the. Her story is, like, very, like, valuable when we, like, trying to construct the like, about the Ubakin, you know, story and how view himself in this, like, meditation. So, yes, I think that it's, like, valuable for not just for, like, Burmese, you know, for the people who interested about, you know, Bakin meditation, that kind of world.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

I'm curious what you think about Friedgaard's story and her role and kind of what she represents and what you've learned from her. Because. And I asked that in particular because to date, we, you know, every time we roll out an episode of Freed Guards, we always make sure to have a commentary, in this case a double commentary on being able to flesh out some of the deeper parts of what she's saying and, and. And the importance of who she is and what she represents. For the most part, we have been talking to, to. To Western practitioners and hearing their views. As a fellow Westerner who was in Burma for likely much longer and much earlier than they were. And, and that's a fascinating reflection to be able to get. We're speaking to you as a Burmese practitioner, so the, the way that you look at her and the way that you hear her, because I think another thing that's amazing about Friedgaard is based on the person's background and knowledge, they really hear and get different things from what she's saying because she's. She's so detailed and in depth about and exacting about the kinds of things she's sharing that there are things that will really stand out depending on where you're situated and things which you might not really notice as all that unique or unusual. And so I'm really curious to get your perspective particularly as someone coming from the country interested in. In the. The Burmese Buddhist and meditation lineages and traditions. And so when you hear this in these recordings, this elderly German woman describing, you know, in incredible detail this, her. Her life as a very young German at the time trying to fit into, you know, pre coup and post coup Burma under Ne Win and who knew at that time and all the culture and food and meditation traditions and, and Buddhist customs and meditation, everything with that. How does that strike you? What, what, what do you notice? What stands out and what's, what's really interesting and relevant and significant about her from where you're situated?

[Burmese Practitioner]

I, I mean the major like I, I feel like you know, thing that I'm really interested her view is alternation, that kind of thing because like in like as a woman and you know, I'm Burmese and I always feel like that, you know, I've been told like that okay, that you know, bacon alternation if even if we do it now that might probably not valid because you know, the tradition like the lost the continuity. But I mean I think that you know, because like, because not just because of Rika but like I feel that you know, these like younger generation are trying to find a way to get back to that bacon. So yeah, I think that she's very outspoken about that and I, I really admire her and you know, to use her like let's say that her popularity or her voice to, to raise for the woman, you know, kind of thing. So yes, that's, that's what that is like very like because like you know, maybe I'm like I'm from Burma, you know, I feel like that we've been like kind of, you know how to say that women are being treated like inferior in the some. Some way like nuns, you know, like nuns and like Nan didn't get a lot of like equal treatment compared with Mount. So if we can like fully ordain as a bacon it will be the best. And I think that Fruga is like. Would be very supportive if you know, kind of thing. So. Yes,

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

and I think that's so interesting because we referenced before about when we listen to Freed Guard, there's so many stories being told simultaneously, so many threads that sometimes it's Hard to describe. Well, what, what is really the arc of her life? Because we've identified there's at least five or six arcs that if even one person had one of these arcs, it'd be tremendous because you're hitting upon here this arc of. Of gender and gender, overall gender in Burma, but also particularly gender in the monastic traditions and Buddhist traditions in Burma and what's allowed and what's not. And that's a very relevant and very significant arc in her life. That, that is one of those threads. But then along with that thread, you know, of course we have the relationship with Sayaji Ubaken and Webu Sayada, Maha Gandhi on Sayada. This, you know, a passing relation or just taking a course. But really knowing these people over months and years of, you know, at centers, out of centers that is just unparalleled in her memory and how she's able to describe it. We just get these extraordinary descriptions of who these figures are. That's the second one. There's obviously the, the aspect of freedom and tyranny in a political and societal sense. This is someone coming out of Nazi, literally born in Berlin and Nazi Germany, who then nearly goes to the Student Union building when it's blown up infamously in 1962 and, and just manages to. To not go there at the last minute and then spends all these years seeing these military regimes in, in Burma. And that, that, that question of political and societal tyranny and freedom becomes relevant to her as well. Another theme here is that when she leaves Burma, then you have the worldwide mindfulness and meditation, meditation movement kicking off and, and she is well positioned to start, as we'll hear in later episodes and partly in this one, helping out Ruth Dennison and John Coleman and Robert Hover and Goenka to some extent, but really having a lot to say about what happens when these Burmese forums of practice and conceptions start to hit a Western audience. You know, that's, that's certainly another one there. And then we have the academic as well. You know, she was an accomplished scholar. Let us not forget her. Her focus on academia and her and her studies and her thesis and everything else. And so there, There are just so many threads that. And so many arcs that are. Are bound together in one person's life. It's. You have to stand back and it's hard to even kind of recognize how they all fit there and how they all fit together.

[Burmese Practitioner]

Yeah, that's true. She have a, like, remarkable life. And you know, even for like Burmese, like at the time, it's not really like, easy for, you know, to meet with like we busiaro or you know, uo to like, learn from the U Bakin. And she. She was there during the. I think the. Like, how to say that most important time in like, Myanmar history. And like, that kind of like a lot of the things are, you know, happening and like, even in the meditation, like, kind of thing that, you know. So, yeah, I mean, she. She might personally know going. Right. I mean, I remember she. She said that she is not friend with going up. But I can understand because like in Bami's like, you know, setting like me and female, like, it's like more segregation like separation kind of thing. So she might personally not friend with going up. But I mean, she was there, you know, so it would be like very like. I don't know that, like, because I think that in one of your, like, podcast series, like, you, like, you mentioned that, you know, like other foreign, like the American that the Dr. Leon Wright was present.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

Right. She was there after Leon. Right. She never. This comes in a later episode when I ask her. She, she never, she never met him, but they all talked about him and they all remembered him very fondly.

[Burmese Practitioner]

Oh, yes. So maybe that is the woman that. Yeah, yeah, like I remember in the Daughter Leon Wright podcast that, yeah, they, they. She never met her. But like, yeah, like she, like she said how affinity affectionate with that one. And. Yeah. So, okay, it's interesting.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

Yeah, right, exactly. And I mean, you take Friedgaard and Leon Wright, and these are, you know, a young German woman who's been largely left off the historical record, an African American diplomat, cultural attache who's in Burma before even the civil rights movement in America, these, these stories get flattened. And when we talk about Burmese Buddhist meditation and we talk about the early meditation movement of the West, Leon Wright and Friedgard Lodermoser have no place. And yet. And as you know, as are many others we could put there as well or equally relevant. And yet when you check in with their stories and their relevance and their significance, you find, you know, oh, my God, like, this is. How can this person's story not be part and parcel of the story that we tell about the migration of. Of meditation to the West? I mean, this. They're right at the center of everything.

[Burmese Practitioner]

Yeah, that's true. That's. Yeah, that's what I like about, you know, your podcast is that you bring into the thing that I never knew that exists.

[Friedgard Loadermoser]

So.

[Burmese Practitioner]

Yes.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

So another thing I'd like to ask is that another aspect of What Friedgaard provides in these conversations with her extraordinary mind, her storytelling gifts, her ability to, to, to present imagery that, that is immersive and makes you feel that you're standing there with her and she's pointing to different directions you're seeing. What she sees is that in these series of interviews there is a lot of color and a lot of information about late 1950s, early 1960s Burma, Rangoon, Mandalay, Shan ethnic territories. And, and she really paints a picture of how things were like. And so as a Burmese listening to this, what, what is. What has struck you or what, what have you appreciated about this kind of time travel experience that Free Guard is offering you?

[Burmese Practitioner]

I think that she gave us like a lot of like, like valuable information, like confirming, you know, like even the, you know, she talked about the political situation and you know, like civil war and she, she experienced it and now, you know, now look at, when we look at the present situation and we, we found that, yeah, this is, this is not something new. You know, it's like a deep rooted problem, you know, since we got independence and, and, and she offered like, how to say that we, we had that kind of like, that information before, but she is like confirming, you know, that thing that yes, these things are really happening. Like, like, let's say that, you know, at the time, UNO government is called like Yangon government because they only can, you know, govern the Yangon. Right. The whole country is in civil war. And now we look at it now the whole country is in civil war apart from like big cities. So it's not really different. And yeah, a lot of the historical insight, knowledge and yes, and a lot of things that, you know, at the time Anglo people are living and I live in part, and you know, in part there are a lot of like Anglo Burmese community and you know, they left because of Ne Win. Like, you know, so, so it is quite sad situation and we should not forget it and we should like. Yeah, I mean, it makes me feel emotional because I feel like, oh my God, when, you know, our country will be like, stable. You know, is there a time that. Is Myanmar going to be stable? That kind of feeling? Yes.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

Right. And I think what I so appreciate about Freed Guard is that there are other incidences of other teachers, largely, you know, big name Western teachers who have spent very limited time in Burma or Thailand or some other country. And they've really just seen it as kind of like a practice grounds. Like they're going there for their spiritual development and they're, they're not interested in the Wider elements going on with the locals that they interacted with. They just want to get those lessons. And I think what stands out so much about Friedgaard, what I so admire is that she is certain. You know, no one can deny her incredible spiritual dedication and sacrifice and priority that she places. I mean, that goes without saying, but that's not done at the expense of actually interacting and caring about Burmese community and people and history and society and context. I mean, she's deeply knowledgeable and deeply cares. And I think that has to be emphasized because that is in contrast to other examples we see of people who have kind of come to take and then to bring back in some cases even to charge, you know, even to take these teachings free, not credit them or credit them just to kind of boost up a, a teaching prowess and, and, and resume and then, then adapt them into Western contexts and, and not really at any moment know much about what's really going on in Burma aside from just that one strand of, of limited teaching they've been able to get. And I think with Friedgaard, you, you get someone who is so dedicated to the practice, but there's, there's a big place in her heart for the people in the country that she's in. And you know, saying this, actually I just had a thought. I'm emotional thinking this. I, I wish you could have seen that. I mean, I wish you could have met Friedgaard because she would have melted. I mean, she, I saw her when she met Burmese and she was able to slip into Burmese language and especially when she met Burmese women because as you say, with the segregation opened up even further, just this sisterhood connection. And you know, I, I pleaded with her at times to allow me to release some of these episodes. Not because I was in a rush or I wanted the platform to carry it this or that. It was because I wanted her to know how, how loved and, and special she was and what I knew she would mean to so many people if, if they had access to her and there were so few who did. And, and so, you know, I wish you, I'm sure you can imagine it, but I wish you could have just had a moment of, of interacting with her. She would herself to you within seconds and, and, and felt that you, you know, you were long lost family members. And I think that's a really special quality about her that, that comes out in the interviews as well.

[Burmese Practitioner]

Yes, I agree because like, I mean, you know, compare with the, I know that some of the like Western like meditator camp and you know, learn the technique and like, they just like. I mean, but frugal is like she spent a lot of time like you, you know, she spent a lot of time in Myanmar and she is like make like friends with, you know, us. So some people like, you know, might probably just come for the technique. They don't met local people, they don't invest in the culture. I think that in order to understand the Burmese, like Buddha, Zen, I think that you should be interacting with people, how people are, you know, manage the crisis and like, you know, like we do have a Buddhist value and sometimes that how to say that taking part in the culture is the best way to learn the meditation and to learn about the Burmese Buddhist as well. So.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

So true.

[Burmese Practitioner]

So that's why, you know, I think that she is someone that not just speaking Burmese, she act like a Burmese, you know, she care about, you know, our. Our like country. She care about Burmese people. And so I, Yeah, that's why I feel like that, you know, if I know her like, personally, it would be like, great because like, she will be like, yeah, I mean, I will be. Benefit from her, you know, like getting a role model and who care about us, you know. And yes, I really thanks. Thank her, you know, for that. The kind of like the view, not just like a. Burma is a place where that you learn the meditation and later like, you know, you bring back to your country without giving like proper credit to the teacher and the culture presented, but you know, like the kind of. And making essay like, oh, or like saying that, oh, you know, the real like historical Buddha teaching and our way of teaching are different and you know, we should go back to the original not the Burmese style because they. They dilute and they pollute with. You know, they are cultural and you know, they are spiritual stuff like net, you know, that kind of like animism and this kind of thing and basically like downgrading the Burmese tradition. I mean. Well, I'm not saying that Burmese tradition is like perfect. You know, I'm not like no way saying that. But yeah, some people just like that way. So. Yes.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

Yeah, right. And reminds me of a couple anecdotes you saying that one is that. And I think I've shared this before on here, but Fried Guard told me at one point that the reason that she ultimately felt comfortable talking to me was that because I wanted to talk and not just talk, but know about. I wasn't just coming from the strand of meditation and particularly Ubic and Goenka lineage, but I knew Burma and I wanted to talk Burma. And that was very important to her, and that was one of decisions. And in speaking to me, because I think a lot of the other Western meditators she spoke to had very limited access or very kind of assumptions about it, but weren't able to engage at the level of care that. That she was and that I. That I hope I do. But then on the other hand, there's another funny anecdote where when, you know, when I met her in Sri Lanka to record a week of interviews in. In person and on video, so, you know, a teaser. We have about 20 hours of video recording with her high definition video, high resolution, which is just another level from what you're hearing here. But I had been talking to her at that point for about a year remotely, but we'd never met. And I came with my sound engineer, Tharn A, who was just taking, you know, doing the AV and had had no interaction with her beforehand. But when we met her, she looked at me, said a couple words and bypassed me almost immediately to, you know, see Tharnay and say, oh, a Burmese person. Oh, Thargo, and start talking about his name and his background and everything else. And it was just her, her. And that's what I mentioned about her way of opening up. She was so happy in Sri Lanka to be able to speak Burmese and talk about Burma and, you know, and. And then upon leaving, I mean, Darnay was so moved. They had such a special relationship during that time. He said a couple things that really stood in my mind. One was that he said through Friedgaard's tellings of Burma, he had never in his life been so proud to be Burmese. He. He had never felt so warmly and. And powerfully about his country as he did. And his people heard Freed Guard's relation to its history and her time there. And the second was he came to take her as a spiritual teacher. You know, he came to see. He was someone that I think was a bit disillusioned by some of the ways that monks and meditation teachers had behaved and, And. And in some cases said, you know, he refrained from doing the customary bows and two monks because he just simply didn't respect him. And he said with Freed Guard, you know, he. He bowed deeply, he bowed formally, he bowed with reverence, and, you know, held her in a place of. Of. Of really seeing her in a. In a special sacred place, kind of as a. As a spiritual teacher and model for what was possible in. In. In a. In a contemporary landscape where, you know, he had many other examples that didn't really hold up the same way.

[Burmese Practitioner]

Yes, yes, that's true. I can imagine that, like, you know, if I have a chance to meet her in person, I think that, yeah, she will be treating me like a, you know, long lost friend immediately. Within, like.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Burmese Practitioner]

Five minutes.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

Absolutely. And so the last question I want to ask you before we jump into listening to this sixth installment of Friedgaard Lernermoser is that sometimes when we come from a culture and there's an outsider who comes to live in our culture and lives there for a long time and is very astute and very observant, they might, through their reflections and observations, we might learn something about our culture that just by being in it, we never thought of things or never, never learned things, just because everything was, was. Was kind of so automatic and routine that we. We never thought it could be a different way. So in hearing the way that Friedgaard will talk about Myanmar and talk about Burmese culture, Burmese Buddhism, have there been insights about your own country and that. That freed guard kind of helped you to understand and see?

[Burmese Practitioner]

Yes. I mean, yeah, in general, yes, but it's quite difficult to pick which one. But like, I mean, when I listening to your podcast, I kind of feel like that, like, Burmese, like, you know, culture, like Buddhism is like, unique even in the, you know, other terroir, like, countries and stuff. And it makes me feel like, how to say that? I'm like, you know, fish in the sea. So it's like, you know, people like asking me, like, how do you feel? Like, and I won't be able to answer. But from like, her podcast and like, stuff like, you know, that it's just like, understand that, okay, we, we do have a very, like, strongly belief in the, like, commentary and that kind of thing. It's like, I. So I feel like that, yes. And then I eventually know that, okay, other country are not that, like, you know, like, not that paid that attention to that commentary. Like, oh, a bit of mother kind of thing. So, yes, definitely a lot.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

Okay, so with that, let's listen to Friedgard Loadermoser, the sixth installment in our ongoing series.

[Friedgard Loadermoser]

Sam.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

At this point in the episode, we had planned for you to hear from a senior teacher in the Goenka tradition, not from me. That commentary was recorded, but shortly before publication, permission to include it was withdrawn. As many listeners know, Friedgaard's conversations are rich and layered. Her memories touch on Burmese history, meditation practice, institutional development, cultural transmission, and people who have since become almost mythological figures. So, you know, no single listen or listener will hear everything contained within her words. As a result, if you've been listening to the series, you know that we've made a practice of inviting commentators to join us before and after each installment. At times, the observation these guests express will conform more or less to my perspective, yet at other times they complicate it, they challenge it, or they move the conversation in other directions. That dynamic process, it has become a vital part of releasing Freed Guards interviews. For this particular episode, we had invited a senior teacher in the SN Goenka tradition to provide that commentary for this conversation, and we felt that this choice it was especially important in this case, as Freed Guard contrasts the teaching culture around Siju Bekin with the development of the Going Commission. In the interview that follows, you're going to hear her question Goenka's emphasis on exclusive lineage claims and discuss the notion of pristine purity, as well as express some level of hesitation about the standardized system that emerged through assistant teachers and recorded instructions. I obviously have my own perspective on these issues and my own history with the tradition, so I could have easily invited a commentator who had already agreed with me and allowed the episode to move entirely in one direction. But had I taken this route, it would have made me yet another gatekeeper trying to tighten up my own particular agenda in an effort to make my own version of the story more watertight and protected. However, this has never been our intent here at Insight Myanmar Podcast. Thus the decision to invite a senior teacher in the tradition to provide their own perspective and commentary, someone capable of hearing the conversation from within that world world we wanted listeners to hear where my questions might be incomplete. We wanted someone to explain what Friedgaard or I might be missing, and to give the strongest and most thoughtful account of why the organization developed as it did. As mentioned, that commentary was recorded but then withdrawn shortly before publication. While we cannot go into the circumstances regarding its withdrawal, I can share here that the speaker did feel quite satisfied with the final product and was appreciative to be part of the discussion. But of course we will respect their decision. This is a platform based on the agency of people who speak with us, and we would never publish someone's voice if they did not feel safe in us doing so. But respecting that decision, it does not require us to contend that the resulting silence is insignificant. At one point, Friedgaard uses a striking metaphor to describe what she sees as happening. As Goenka's mission becomes increasingly dependent on recordings, she said it was like placing a muzzle on teachers. They were prevented from speaking freely and making full use of their talents and while she recognizes why the recordings developed, she believed that this uniformity, it came at a cost. She notes that this system effectively preserved Goenka's instructions and discourse, but that it also narrowed the living role and agency of those entrusted with teaching them. Friedgaard's own story is also relevant here. She agreed to record these 45 hours of conversation only on the condition that they not be released anytime during her lifetime, because she wanted to continue attending long courses. And she feared that speaking honestly about her memories might place that access in general jeopardy. Although she repeatedly expressed gratitude for the Goenka tradition and and she believed that these courses, they supported her spiritual development, she did not feel sufficiently secure to speak openly while she was alive and have those released. What finally made these recordings possible in the first place, to even put down on tape, was her decision to trust the act of dialogue itself. To believe that our long form conversation could hold the full complexity of her memories with care, and that choosing to share her voice would ultimately be of more value than remaining in silence. I think it's equally relevant here to bring in Bruce Stewart's recent reflections. You can go back and listen to him on episodes 5, 54 and 55 6. Bruce is a former senior teacher who has since left the tradition. And he described in these conversations how the organization culture it acts as kind of a silencing agent. He notes that while there is no explicit command that enforces this silence, people learn where it's safe to speak and where it might be risky. Bruce also goes on to say that those within the tradition, they will observe what happens to those who raise difficult questions or who express doubts. And so one considers accordingly whether speaking might affect relationships or teaching responsibilities, access to centers, as in Friedgaard's case, or eligibility for long courses. This is why Bruce advocates for the courage to take on the hard questions that are found at what he calls, quote, the back of the cave. Yet it's interesting that even with this perspective, Bruce hesitated right up until the final minute as to whether he was ready to talk on our platform, because he knew that that doing so would likely change relationships and bring consequences. But he hoped that taking that risk that it might give other people permission to speak as well. Returning to the commentary that was meant to appear here, this is what makes its withdrawal so unfortunate. Because the loss, it extends beyond this particular episode or even our platform. We believe it's a loss for the tradition itself. We had tried to create this space where a senior teacher could explain and clarify and disagree, bring an informed internal perspective into the conversation. I strongly believe that this would not have weakened or threatened the tradition. On the contrary, it would demonstrate that someone could acknowledge its achievements, perhaps even recognize its limitations, and remain grounded without without becoming defensive or hostile. Now, one of those voices that was best positioned to contribute in this way, it will simply not be heard. However, I will be sharing some of the points that were made so that they can at least remain a part of the fabric of this episode. If I may, I'd like to take a step back for a moment to reiterate some of the principles behind Insight Myanmar Podcast and the theory of change that guides our work Work Our goal was to create a decentralized, democratized and decolonialized platform where different forms of knowledge can encounter one another. In the context of this topic that includes differences between Burmese and Western understandings of practice, institutional and independent perspectives, teachers and students, critics and committed meditators, insiders and outsiders, Insight Myanmar's mission is to resist the narrowing of conversation and the flattening of complex histories into a single, authorized account. We want to make room for what is usually omitted, softened, erased, and to help preserve the tensions and uncertainties that are often necessary for a fuller understanding. We don't believe that knowledge should be controlled by one person or a single institution, and we do not treat dialogue as a contest in which one version of events must defeat all the others. And what is more, we value the diversity not only from who sits in the guest chair, but also who's hosting and what sort of questions get asked. That's why we are intentional about bringing in different hosts into our programs, and why we devote significant resources to training and developing Burmese voices. We acknowledge this doesn't mean that our hosts are neutral. We're human beings. We have our own histories, our own biases and opinions, and of course, our areas of ignorance. We sometimes make mistakes, but we do not believe this means we should eliminate perspective. The answer is to place differing perspectives into honest relationship with one another, which also functions as a kind of checks and and balances in holding every speaker to the same standards. In this way, our work is closely aligned with the Nigerian author Chimamande Ngose Adichie's warning about the danger of a single story. No person, no community, country, or historical tradition can be understood through one controlling narrative. This is especially clear in the case of Myanmar. We would never hope to understand that country's conflict or history or future through one ethnic, political, or religious perspective. And meditation. Communities must also be approached with that same caution in mind. They contain competing memories, unresolved histories, institutional loyalties, cultural differences, and people whose experiences do not fit comfortably within the official account. Friedgaard's voice matters because it interrupts the single story with the intervention of a lived experience speaking to us in the present day day. The commentary of a senior teacher in the tradition matters because it prevents Friedgaard's account, alongside my response to it, from becoming another single story. This is why we've actively sought participation from organizational voices and will continue to do so. But when they choose not to take part or do not feel safe in doing so, this inevitably seeds the ground to those who are willing to engage, which often tends to be those outside the tradition being either scholars or those who have left left. Conversation requires conversation partners, and for our part, anyway, we will keep this space open.

[Friedgard Loadermoser]

So this is the story I've read in the biography of Huberkin, written by his son. So he should know the life of his father fairly well because he was born in Rangoon, he lived in Rangoon, and his father was also in the same city. And that is soon after independence, the Karen insurgents immediately fought against the Burmese government, because the Koran, they were very close to the British and they were in the British army and they had many Christians, and so they didn't want it to remain in the Commonwealth, but the Burmese had the majority. And so there was a disagreement between the Koran and the. And the Burmese. And the Karen insurgency at the beginning stage was very successful. And there was a certain year, I think around about 1950 or so, when the Karen and the insurgents fighting against the government had controlled the whole country except the city of Rangoon. And they stood in the suburb of Rangoon in Insane, which is a place where many Karens live. And the UNO government was just sort of. The Burmese army was very small and very independent, very helpless. So all the citizens of Rangoon was frightened. Now they would be taken over and there would be. It would be very dangerous. So in this context, U Bakin made a vow for peace. And the vow consisted that he would keep eight precepts and could eat only rice and salt. And then he would recite a certain text the whole day, except for the time when he was eating and sleeping and going to the toilet. And he did that for a week. And the text he recited is called Upattasanthi. That is a rare Pali text. It's not an early text, it's a late text. It was written in Chiang Mai, then, the capital of North Thailand, which was also ruled by the Burmese several centuries ago. For quite a long Time So there were Pali texts written there. And these texts are known in Burma as well as in Thailand. And this text, Uppata Shanti is an invocation of all the 28 Buddhas of the past, then of the Pachika Buddhas, then of the two Agamahasavakas, Sariputta Mogalana, then of all the Mahasavakas and then of about 108 male arahats and then about all the female Arahats, starting with the female chief disciples and then all the Brahmas and all the Devas and everybody even including the lower deities and the. Oh, and then also of course the disciples who were human beings, outstanding ones. And I think it even goes down to the Nagas and the lower order, like dragons and so on, and then requesting their protection. It is several hundred verses, this text. And that was recited by Uberkin at the time when I read the that story, I got the book in 2014. I didn't know the text, but then it was published in the Internet. And so with great interest I read it. And then what happened? After one week the Qur' an withdrew and the city was saved. That is for the power of Aditna. That was Uberkin's way of making peace. It really happened. But of course how much the Uberkin's effort and recitation has to do with the withdrawal of the insurgents, we don't know.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

And then of course a more complicated matter is the development of Burmese history and that that force which was repelling the Karen trying to take over Yangon is of course the force that turned into to the brutal Tatmada that initiated the 62 coup and that has been ruling with oppression ever since. Of course the 1950s and even 60s version of that military is not the version we know today. But I mean actually it's funny you mentioned this because I'm recall, I'm recalling a story, I don't know if you've heard of KT Lynn, but KT Lynn was a, a soldier in, in what would become the Tantmada that was, was, is often credited single handedly with taking certain brave and courageous initiatives which ensured that the Quran would not take the city because they were as close as, as Mingaladon and insane, which is just in the, the northern reaches of the city. And he's credited with taking certain actions which really prevented them from advancing further. And he has since said actually after the 2021 coup he came out and said that he now wonders if he did the right thing. That you know, given that he, he took an action which would save this fighting unit which would then become the Tatmada. He's openly reflected. Maybe it would have been better if I hadn't have done that and this whole history would have played out differently. And the Karens had taken the city.

[Friedgard Loadermoser]

Yeah, well, of course I don't think the Karens could have governed Burma because they are only one or several minorities. The Burmese was even, even if they lost and their army was helpless, they wouldn't have been willing to be ruled by the K.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

Right. It's an alternate history that we, we can't imagine. And, and the Karen never, as far as I understand, they never wanted to rule the country. It was more that they wanted their own, what they defined as their own territory, to have that autonomous.

[Friedgard Loadermoser]

Yes. And the, of course the, the Karen insurgents they have fought since independence and that is now 74 up to the, up to the present. It's over 70 years. Yeah, well they, they have the name of Kule for their own current area and that is what they wanted.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

Right. And, and I, I might be mixing up stories here, but I believe that this was the moment where U N was sitting a self 45 day intensive meditation retreat and when the Korans were about to over overtake the city and the ministers informed him that this was happening and that he needed to, needed to, to take action and do something. He said, don't disturb me, I'm in my silent meditation retreat. I'll see what's happening after I get out.

[Friedgard Loadermoser]

This is like the ancient J stories in the Pali literature. The king, the king of Varanasi, who was a Bodhisattva, was meditating and the neighboring king wanted the kingdom. And he came, came and attacked with the army. And the Bodhisattva refused to fight until he was taken and buried in the park because they thought then at night the jackals would come and kill him. And still he hadn't shown a piece of resistance. Only when the jackals actually came and ate and tried to bite into his face. Then he took hold of the jackal's snout and bit him back. And that saved his life because jackal got startled and he tried to withdraw, but he held fast with the human teeth on the jackal's snout with a sensitive part. So the jackal struggled to get free and they pulled the Bodhisatta out of the ground where he had been dug in. But that is of course that's a story in the Jataka. So of course I'm just telling this because I was very Touched with it when I read that story. And sure, it's something that Uberkin has really done. And of course, whether it's because of this or because we as his disciples, we have great admiration for him. Anyhow, the danger of war was prevented. And of course when you see the present Tamado, even the Tan Shui government, you know, who built Naypy Doctors, the new capital, the Tanjri, has built a big pagoda there, as big as the Shagon. And he called it Upatasanti Pagoda.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Friedgard Loadermoser]

So what kinds of spiritual forces are being established? Depends on the mind of the person who is doing, doesn't it doesn't depend on even the text? No, but I was just wondering because I saw the, I saw the text only after I had read the story, and I saw the story only in 2014 that, that is when the book was new. So I, I, I December, so 2015. I read it after the long retreat in Sri Lanka because I was one month in Burma and that time I didn't have so much time to read the books. We were traveling and I was with Uberkin's granddaughter in Engine Bin and all that.

[Burmese Practitioner]

So.

[Friedgard Loadermoser]

But yeah, okay, so I thought it is a very good story because he. That is the power of taking a vow. I have taken only three vows in all my life and almost all of them got completed. Oh. The first vow is after my first meditation course. I said I will do everything I can to learn everything I can from this teacher. This is wonderful.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

This teacher meaning Seiyagi Ubbekin?

[Friedgard Loadermoser]

Yes. This is wonderful. And I mean, considering that I was a school girl who was there because my father got a job there, I had no means of independent action to bring this about.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

You were 17 years old?

[Friedgard Loadermoser]

Yeah, 18. It was about the time of my 18th birthday. Well, half, two weeks before my birthday or a month before it. Yeah, my birthday is on the 13th of April, a month before that and the 2nd. Well, and to my great surprise, this actually materialized. This one. Yeah, because I stayed with Uberkin for 64 until 65 in content contact and then I went to Mendeley. I didn't have close contact with Ubakin, but I stayed in the monastery. And when I had to leave Burma because I got the scholarship and still so many years when I had to leave Burma, that means when I had finished all the education and stayed for one year and couldn't find a good reason to get a stay permit, and then I had to leave and then had already filed the ticket and went to leave, and then Uberkin passed away. So actually the wish to learn from him as much as I could. This was fulfilled because I stayed in Burma as long as Uberkin lived. And the second one was later, about a year later when I was having so much trouble with my parents. I said, oh, now I have to wait until I'm 21. And I was only 19 or 18 and it just was an absolutely long time to wait two more years because my mother was wasn't permitted. But she is my guardian and I'm only a grown up person at the age of 21. Nowadays it's 18, but in those days it was three years later. So I said, okay, I will wait until I'm 21, then I can do what I want. But if I get married, I'll be very careful that I don't get a husband who will stop me meditating. Well, I never got married so no husband could stop me meditated. And the third vow I did much later in Borgara in 1987 when Sakya Dita was founded and there was a big meeting of Buddhist women for the re establishment of the Bhikkhuni ordination in Theravada Buddhism. And I was ordained as a Burmese Thilassin in Bodh Gaya because there were some lands from Nepal and they had had the Burmese list. This Nepalese nun was educated and ordained in Burma, but they came from Kathmandu, not from Burma. The Burmese no one got a passport out of Burma in 87 to join this event. So under the bolit tree I became a Dilechen for the duration of my leave because I had a research job in Germany. So my leave was one month. But under the boditary I made the vow that whenever I had a good chance to become a nun, I would do that until I could become a Bhikkhuni for the rest of my life. So it took me until 2008 when I was 66 years old on my birthday. Then I became a Samani theory. That is not that. That doesn't mean that I never found a man I was interested in. But anyhow I didn't. I managed to avoid the control by another person who would be a further obstacle. So any other. There were many other obstacles, but they were always my own responsibility. Not by another person who had the authority to say I don't permit you to do that. The letters, it convinced me really of the dis. Of the mental power of making a ditana. The moment you need is I'm staking my life. I will do whatever I can. You have to Come to that point, most of the things you decide in your life, you're not so serious about it. You don't put enough willpower into it. But if it is important enough, then you make this vow and you bow down to the well, whoever is the thing you rely on. And then it has the capacity to get fulfilled, at least in my experience. And so I wanted to explain to you that actually Burmese Buddhists, not only uber kin, they work with this power of making a vowel, particularly if they have a wish, then they will say, oh, I will practice so and so and so on. Then they rely on. On that.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

Yeah, yeah, certainly. I certainly found that in my time there as well. And I. I'd like to move the conversation to looking at your experiences at International Meditation Center IMC under the Burmese lay teacher Sayaji Ubaken, and your experiences with this teacher and in this place of practice and understand some of the culture and the teachings. And so my question is, is to what degree and in what way did Seiji Ubakin reference the lineage of teachers before him? The pristine purity of what he was teaching, or the fact that this was a technique which had had been delivered by the Buddha and had now come to us in. In this pristine purity that we were now delivering with no additional or subtractions?

[Friedgard Loadermoser]

You must understand that Goenka was teaching it in India and while Uberkin was doing it in Burma, in Rango. So even though we know Uberkin sometimes mentioned that he had learned meditation on the. He rarely talked about it, really. And about lady theater. If he emphasized the point that this teaching came from ladies, I think Rangoon would have laughed at Uber because the whole country was the disciples of lady theatre.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

What about the Mahasi tradition at that time? Because that was. The Mahasi tradition was really growing at that time and that was kind of in contrast to Leydi, right?

[Friedgard Loadermoser]

That is true. I'm not very knowledgeable about the Mahasi tradition. But what I've heard that he had a teacher who he went to Indonesia and he's a teacher there. But as far as I gather that Mahasi had the same monastic education as other Burmese monks and he knows the scriptures well. So as far as theory is concerned, there can't be much difference. But of course there were other masters. For instance, the Sun Loan lineage that Goenka accepted, but Uberkin didn't think highly of it. They were hyperventilating.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

Well, what do you mean? Goenka accepted it? Because in the 20 day course he openly criticizes and makes fun of the Sun Loon technique he talks about in the. In one of the discourses on the 20 day course, Goenka references how when you approach a certain kind of meditation lineage which is obviously soon loon by what he says next he said he starts to laugh and he says it sounds like a locomotive. It sounds like all these. This hard breathing. It's like a locomotive of people that are trying to take off and go somewhere and kind of laughs and makes fun of it in such a way that it's not a serious teaching. And then indeed he goes on to describe why this hard breathing is certainly not in line with how one should be practicing.

[Friedgard Loadermoser]

Well, the thing is that I went on a pilgrimage tour of Burma with Goenkaji in 2000 with hundred years Uberkin Memorial Pilgrimage and he visited many places that Uberkin would not visit and was telling us to avoid contact. Well, for instance the that we went to Monyua because of Lady Theater it has a connection. But there's a big pagoda about a thousand Buddhas Thambodi in Monua. And we went with all the meditations and had a good look at all of it. But Ubekin never recommended the famous monk who bought this build this pagoda because it's a modern one. I think it was bought in built after independence or something full of Buddha images, very famous.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

And, and how about. And how about Sun Loon? To what degree? What, what. What did Seajubikin think about Sunlun Saida? And what did he.

[Friedgard Loadermoser]

He did not recommend it. But Goenka I thought was sort of. He was. I don't. I have. I don't remember. I've done only one 20 day course and I don't remember this particular thing. But in general I do think that Goyka is fairly close to what Uberkin says, only he puts the emphasis different. And Uberkin never mentioned said that emphasized his lineage because if as a Burmese Buddhist you emphasize that you have the lineage of Lady Seattle, it would be ridiculous. It's like if you are a Lutheran Christian in Saxonanalt where Luther was born and you emphasize that you are following the teaching of Martin Luther. Of course if you're in South Africa then it may be something special. But here in East Germany where it's a home province of Luther, then all the non Catholic Christians are all followers of Luther. So you don't have to say I'm particularly saintly because I believe in Martin Luther. That is I think my opinion is Lady Sarah and Lady he started to meditate. I've seen a big book written by a Burmese scholar who really researched Lady Seatto's life. He is about the same age as myself, but of course he is born from Burmese soil and from Upper Burma. And the Mahagandayan Siadhar told him that it was a very, very good thing if he could write all the details about Lady Siada's life about the time when I came back to Burma in the. About 1970. And so he did that and the book was finished only 35 years later. That means this scholar, he started with learning how to write a proper biography and then he visited all the places where Lady Siora lived and he took pictures and asked for people. And so it is very much full of information. So from there it becomes quite clear that Laodice was at first a scholar because he was educated in Mandalay in a very famous vihara and he got good grades. And then his monastery was burned down. And it was at the point when he was about to write his own book in Pali about Abhidhamma. He had already notes, collected notes, and these notes were on palm leaves because in those days the Burmese wrote on palm leaf with metal incisor. They didn't use paper and pencil yet. And it was all burned. So then Lady Sarah was quite disappointed and he went back to his home village and he thought, well, I better give up studies, I have wasted so much energy and I was well prepared. Now the material I collected is all gone. And then he looked at his village, whether he could meditate there, because of course there his relatives would support him. But he didn't find a place that was really secluded. He thought if he encouraged them to make a place for him there that he wouldn't have any peace there, that would be constant visitors. Then he went to the next big city, Diepein, that of course is now also in the political limelight because it's near the, the big copper, copper, Chinese copper mine. And there he found another vihara. And there he was teaching because he was a well qualified monk. But then he got the, with the help of his students, they built a small building at the edge of the monastery where people, not many people came. And there he started to meditate. And I think he started to meditate not from a particular master, but from what he had learned. Meditation is explained in Visuddhi Magga and so on. It's not mentioned that he had any specific teacher that couldn't be found out. So this Burmese scholar, of course he did the research after 1970 and he said, I cannot say definitely, but my surmise is that he started with four methods which are called Chadu Araka. And that means it's is Buddha, Anusati, Marana, Sati and Marana, Anusati, Metabhavana and Asuba. And I have discussed this with Dr. River Dhamma and Dr. River Dhamma, who has been in England such a long time and in India, you must know him, Dr. Revar Dhamma, that when he said to me, when he was a young novice in Mendeley, they had to recite the third two parts of the body every day, forward and backward. Adi imas mem ka yeke saloma nakkadanta. This is the first five that you have to recite when your hair is being cut. And then you can recite it backwards. But I don't know all the 32 by heart. But these novices had to do it forward and backward. And that is the beginning of a meditation on the 32 parts of the body. So these four methods were known as the most common one. And so he must have tried one of them. And of course he also knew the description of Annapana. And that is then later he escaped from the monastery in Deepen. And it's quite interesting in this book it's described how he came to the forest of Ladi. Then it the actually Ledi, which became later his name, names the word le means rice field. I forget about tea. And it was a wild area where people did come with a lot of forests and a little bit of agriculture. And he went, he prepared it in such a way that he. In a way it was secret because he knew if he was asking leave to go for meditation, they might not permit it. And he was in the company of several lay people. And then they came to the forest and he told them to clean a forest, a place under a certain tree for him to sit down and meditate. And then they did that and he sat down unmeditated. You know, the monks have a leather seat on which they can sit. And then he told them to go home, he would stay here. And these lay people were so upset.

[Burmese Practitioner]

Oh, oh.

[Friedgard Loadermoser]

They thought if they come back from the forest and without the monk after they left with him, the people will accuse them that they killed the monk or this kind of thing. It is said that one of the lay people had tears in his eyes and said, oh, Bundy, Bundy, please do that another time when I'm not there. So that is how he started to do it. But he managed, he insisted. And they went, actually, he's the monk. So they have to listen to what he says. And then he was there alone and with some success. And of course, he knew also all the rules of requirements, how to go and so on. And then other people came to him. But the disciples who came, they came because he had such a fame as a scholar. At the beginning, that was never clear to me how he could do that and why the people ran after him. But it is because he had his fame as a scholar. And then, of course, course, the British conquest of Upper Burma had to do something because then, of course, it's a big upheaval. And Lady Seattle's career as a young man was disrupted twice. The first occasion was when under the rule of King Minden, there was an assassination attempt on the king and the crown prince by some court in intrigue. And they managed to kill the crown prince. But the king Mindon escaped. So the coup was not successful. But it was a big upheaval. And for that reason, Ledi Sarah couldn't go to Mandalay from his home place where he got his basic education. When he was in his early 20s, actually, his teacher had already made the connection to the vihara in Mendeley. And then he could. Couldn't go because there was also some fighting from Srivu and Monyua with the capital in Mandalay, until it had quieted down. He then, after quite a long time of meditation and teaching also. And apparently he tried many methods of Kamatana, not only Anapana with the when he. And you are searching for the situation where he could do meditation. And then he joined with a group of four monks in Lower Burma. And they were seen. They had a layperson who gave them food, brought it to them, otherwise they would never went out. This person had to get the food for these four monks who were meditating. And so one day this layper person went into the room without announcing his arrival. And he saw them that one of them was meditating in the posture, but he was sitting in the air. He got such a shock and pressed. And so later they told him, please always knock at the door, don't do that. And then Lady Sarah went to India on pilgrimage. Quite late also in his life. And after that he didn't. When he was in Rangoon, he didn't return to Upper Burma. Where his home place was was because the Lady Forest had now become a monastery. When he first came, there was a tree under a tree. They had to clear the brush even under the tree. But now it was a whole establishment. So Lydia was thinking, if I go up there I have to teach these people. I better go in a place near, in upper, in lower Burma where no one knows me and where I can continue with my meditation. And he found a place across the river in Syria, and there it is. He must have told that to some people. He did a meditation where he developed light and the Nimitta had appeared. But Lady Israel was not satisfied. He wasn't sure because it was not stable, the sign. So he thought he must have done a mistake and he would try another method of meditation. And then he said, oh, but then I had practiced so much and I had to try another meditation. So I had undo everything that I had to do and it took so long until I could start with another meditation. So in this way he experimented. And when he wrote the instruction how to do Vipassana, that was near the end of his life, around about 1920. And this vipassana, of course it was first written in Pali, then he translated it into Burmese. But it was written in Pali because it's meant to teach the Dhamma in foreign countries. The translation into English was not done by Lady Theodore. It was done by a Burmese government servant who was fluent in English, but I think from the Burmese, not from the Pali. And that is the only book he's written about Vipassana. So he couldn't have practices very well. The first book before that, it's called Pona Deepni. And when you only look at the title, you think it's a book about Brahmanism because Pona means a Brahmin in Burmese. But actually it's a letter to a lady called Mapbone, that is her name from Mendel. And she had known the Lady Theodore when he was still in Mendeley and given alms to him regularly. Then she didn't meet him for quite a while and after many, many years when he had become famous and then she asked him, oh, Bhante, now you are meditating, how do you meditate? And he wrote that for her about Vipassana. But it was actually instruction on how to say prayers to Buddha on the 5K, on the Ayatnas, I mean the Kandas, the aggregates A, the 12 elements, six senses and their objects, the 18 datus, and all that in the form of a Pali text translated into Burmese, the way the Burmese say the recitation when they pay respects to Buddha. And that's my major port. And then at the end of it, about five pages in Burmese house to meditate on Anaduka. And that was how he his explanation to a pious Burmese Woman how to meditate and only five pages in Burmese. That is how Vipassana developed. But now your question is about pristine, a pristine doctrine. Definitely. It didn't mean to do everything exactly the way Ubakin did it, because Du Goinka didn't do everything like Ubakin did it. He adapted it. And U Bakin also didn't do everything like Siyatji did. But of course, Siyadeji would have never dared to start meditation as a teach meditation as a lay person. But ladies and gentlemen assisted because he could see his ability. And he only said teaching meditation at the request of Lady Sara. After he is done 7 years of Anapana and 14 years of Vipassana, 21 years he did meditate. And then he started to teach the monks because. Because Lady Sciata insisted that he should teach the monks and they were all disciples of Lady Sierra. And then he made Stea Cecchi promised that he would teach at least so and so many other human beings in meditation. And because he had done this, given this promise, then he started to go back to his home in Lower Burma and start to teach the farm workers. And the first course, he had to pay them their wages. That means he had to house them, he had to feed them, he had to teach them meditation and also pay them for that time. So how do you say pristine purity and no change? What is meant with pristine purity and no change is actually, in the time when I was in Burma under the new government, they were always saying that Theravada is the pristine teaching of the Lord Buddha as he originally taught it. That is nothing that Ubakin invented. Everyone who was talking about Theravada in Burma in this area was using these words. But I think it is more a phrase that was needing to point out that Mahayana is a later development. But the lineage handing down from such and such on such and such, I think that's more a Tibetan thing. And then in the Theravada you have, you have, you put emphasis on the. For the purpose of ordination there the lineage is important. As a monk, who is your teacher and who is his teacher, teacher and so on. But that is Vinaya law. It is not connected with meditation. And particularly you don't, you don't hand out are secret teachings like in the mantra, and don't tell anybody. That is not Theravada.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

Right. And I think that the way that Goenka uses the phrase in his tradition and the way that meditators understand it is that there is this, this sacrosanct lineage that they are getting a teaching from now. And this lineage descended over the course of generations through these four teachers that we know. And beyond the Lady Seida, we. You know who. The question often comes, well, what. What is the connection between. What do we know about where Lady Seida received the teachings? I think the question itself is kind of problematic because it's assuming that someone actually taught lady something rather than him formulating it. But Goenka has actually answered that question in saying that, kind of vaguely saying that possibly somewhere in the Sagae Hills. We think that there's a possibility that that lady said at some time in his life, may have come across some sage, some monk who taught him this technique, which we now have today. There's one reference to that, but. There is, but, but this use of pristine purity, the way Goenka describes it, is not really talking about, as you put it in the 1950s in Burma, where you have these pristine teachings of the Buddha and you're differentiating Theravada versus Mahayana practices, and you're talking pristine in the quality of a teaching that's leading to full liberation from all suffering. It's, it's a much narrower and, and specific use of that term in the way that he presents it to his tradition. So that's, you know, I, I understand that he might be using the word pristine because that was a word that was being used at the time.

[Friedgard Loadermoser]

It was the age, the age of the six Buddhist signings, and the whole country of Burma was one involved in this event.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

Right. And, and during that council, during that synod, certainly these themes and these feelings would come out. And so it could have. That particular word, I understand, could have come from that context. But I would argue that, that, that Goenka's adoption of that word and his use of it is very different and is describing something very specific, presenting a certain kind of mythology and also something that's kind of closed. Having. There's a. There's a closed quality of this particular closed lineage is the only one that goes back to the original teachings with the correct technique and everything outside of it that claims to be teaching some form or other of a. A Buddhist meditation. He wouldn't call, obviously he called it non sectarian, so he wouldn't call it Buddhist, but a meditation deriving from the Buddha, that they are outside of what this pristine purity lineage is. And so my question is looking at how Seiyagi Ibukin looked at this, this understanding of lineage of pristine purity, not in terms of the Buddhist teachings in general, in kind of a general open way that might have been reflective of the 1950s and the six synod of pristine teachings that are giving the way to liberation, but a very specific form of those teachings that other parties do not have access to, but this particular lineage does exclusively.

[Friedgard Loadermoser]

Well, Goenka has taught thousands of people and he has shaped his stuff. So whatever he says is widely known. Ubakin had a much smaller circle of disciples and of course there were many people who did only one 10 day course. And not everyone who was in a 10 day course taught by Uberkin would be faced with the fact that he shouldn't go and contact other teachers. Because Uberkin had the idea that if he teaches him at least one 10 day course, that's enough for him. If he never comes back back, he will meet the next Buddha and then that's enough. Because Ubakin is not putting the Dhamma on these people. They themselves have to fulfill their paramis. But inside the closer circle, Ubakin was strict. And he certainly would not have accepted someone who went and experimenting with different things. You take the example of ukulele. Ucole was invited by Mother Selma to start the meditation at the imc. And he was a well known person, but he was very westernized. He drank alcohol and all sorts of things, but he had the parami. So he went and meditated at IMC at the special invitation of Mother Zerma for one month. And then after he had done it, Uberkin asked him to stay longer. And then he thought he now knows one month. And though he was now fit to write about meditation because Ucoli also had a hobby as writing, it's not the first book he is writing. He's written several books. And when as soon as Ubakin saw that he was writing on it, say you are just a beginner, don't write about meditation, don't talk about meditation. And for me to. After half a year I started to translate search book into Germany German. And because this is my mother tongue after all, and I had nothing else to do, I had plenty of time and he didn't accept me for causes also. So I did it at home. I typed it in a wax stencil and I made 20 copies when Siaji knew about it. Oh really? He gave me lectures, not just one, repeatedly. Say, you are just a beginner, you first have to establish yourself, you have to meditate. Don't try and teach others this. Actually I was very sort of knocked down by this because I didn't have the intention to teach anybody. I was Just talking about, thinking about this wonderful experience. But he discouraged people to talk about it. He said, don't talk about your meditation even to even just normal way to people if they don't meditate themselves or if they go into another center because it is a mental environment in mental development you have to keep in your mind and the more you talk about it, you become a missionary and that is taking away strength from your inner development. So he said you have to be more mature and more established before you can talk about it. But so I would say when Goinker says that it is not exactly against Uberkin but it was not so obvious. No, because now he sort of. Because for other things also in the tendigos they develop bhanga, they don't develop the unconditioned state that. And that's a vast difference. That's the point I wanted to make. And so in that case, sometimes you don't have to explain things. The people as their meditation progresses, they know by themselves. And then if they don't meditate at home and then their meditation gets weaker and weaker, they forget again. It has to be kept up. So that makes a difference. That means you have to start and you have to be very strong. You have to start with your sila. You have to be very formed with your samadhi. My samadhi is always weak because I'm an intellectual, so my mind is very quick and so on. So then instead of watching Anita, this feeling in my body, I think about the past, I daydream, I say is so and so and so very pleasant. But it's not vipassana meditation and one hour is gone. Gong goes, we share the merits. Yeah. And now look at what Vibhu Siyadha is. I would say that Lady Siyadha is not. Sorry, Vibhu Siadha. I'm now talking about Vibhu Siadha, highly respected Pasiya ji. And Uberkin said to my face that he thinks that he is an arahant. And he said it twice in the same sentence. He says I am considering an arahant. To me that means he is an arahant twice in the same two statements, one after the other. But Vibhusiada is not in the lineage of Laodicea at all because he was born in. In Jin Bin and he was taught in the. He became a novice in the local village and he was taught there. And one of his teachers was a bit learned. So he read the visuddy magga with him and then he left the went back to his hometown to his home because he was the eldest son. So his father expected him to continue the farm and they even found a wife for him. But it is said that in the case of Rebu, on the day when he was supposed to get married, then he discovered he didn't really want to get married. So he jumped out of the window and he just ran away and was not to be seen. But he ran back to the monastery and he asked the monk whether he could ordain him. And then he worked there. And so being in a Buddhist environment, the family couldn't force a liberty, take the police and get him out of the monster monastery again. Vibhusiada in his young days. And then when he was reading the Visuddhimagga for the second time, his teacher said to the students, that means Vibhu Siado and some other young monks, but a small group. He said, you young people, now we are studying this in the book. But these things are true. You have to go and practice there. But I am now too old now, because I'm attached to my teaching and I'm attached to this monastery. I can't go to the forest, but you go. So his teacher sent them. And so Webhousiare and another monk, they went and they went to a place called Bathein. There's a port in Lower Burma that has the same name. But there's a place also, also near Svebu, which is the home district of Vibhu Siada, where there was a famous meditation teacher. So two of them, they came there and they requested to be. To stay there and be taught meditation. But the teacher said, no, we are full. I don't want. I don't. I can't accept any more people. But then they requested to stay just what, the night, Night. And then the teacher watched the two young monks. And when he saw the behavior of the future Vibhu Seyada, he thought, oh, this is a mild and well educated monk. He may have some parami. So he said to him the next day, if you want to stay here and meditate, I will accept you. So then he stayed and he learned meditation from this monk who was in Bethany monastery close to Sveu. And after he practiced a little bit, then later he went to Lower Burma. He went to the Irrawaddy walking. And then he took the train and he came to Jausse. And then in Jauce, he continued practicing alone in a cave by himself. So where is the lineage of Lady Seattle? No, but Ube met him and he was respected him as a True person who has developed without being taught by and Lady Seattle. And that Vibu Seado's development was higher than UGA Kin's own because he always said, I'm the disciple and he is the teacher. So that means you don't have to be taught by Lady Sir. And that Che Chi and um, and particularly Lady Seattle, Webu Seyado had quite a different way to prevent the rise of many schools. Because now it's a tendency not only in Burma, but also in Sri Lanka, I don't know about Thailand, that every famous monk, he has his own school. And the monasteries are all called in this lineage and in this lineage. So at one point, some devotees of Vibhu Siyada wanted to donate a monastery to him and he agreed. Greed. And then they had put up the signboard and called it monastery in the tradition of Vibusyado. So when Vibhusiada saw that, he said, what are you writing there? Tradition of Vibu Seattle. Aren't we all following the teaching of Lord Buddha? Take it down. This is a monastery for. For the teaching of Lord Buddha and not the teaching of Vibu Seado. And they had to take it down.

[Burmese Practitioner]

He.

[Friedgard Loadermoser]

He thought that. That the teaching in this center was very good. But I think that Vibhuada himself is the proof that Bakin was not the only one who could. Who could teach you meditation because he learned it from others, from other teachers.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

But this understanding that Goenkaji has given to his students, that this particular form of meditation has been handed down teacher to pupil, going directly back to the

[Friedgard Loadermoser]

Buddha himself, I can phrase it like this. On one occasion I. After a course, I was full of gratitude. So I went out, I paid down respects to Uberkin, and I said, I'm so grateful. I really want to say thank you for you for teaching me that particular course. It was not my first course, but one of them the other one months. And then he said to me, oh, never mind. I'm only trying my best to follow in the footsteps of Lord Buddha as closely as possible.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

And that's different. I mean, that's actually a very different way to say it, because the way you describe is Ubakin saying it is that his teachings are to as great a degree as possible in line with what the Buddha is teaching. And going back to the Burmese context, we can say, having lived in Burma a long time myself and spent time in monastic and environments, this is a type of framing and discussion which is very common among different Burmese teachers and traditions. Saying whatever it is, they're teaching saying, look, let me show you why this particular method that I'm teaching, why this does not contradict in any way with what the Buddha has said and why it's actually very much in line with it. And when you present, when. When you use language to present it this way, in no ways is it exclusive. In no ways is it promoting a certain kind of thinking that, that this technique and no other, or this technique alone, excluding the possibility of any other formulation, is the only possible way of what the Buddha was teaching. And to. To say nothing of actually re. Interpreting or, or framing a particular lineage. A. A which is a historical thing. I mean, which is a, a historical piece of evidence that you're presenting that there's an actual lineage. Lineage that's preserving a certain formulation of a technique that's going hundreds and thousands of years from teacher to pupil.

[Friedgard Loadermoser]

Well, Uberkin wanted to teach the whole world, even the non Buddhists.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

Sure, sure.

[Friedgard Loadermoser]

So how can he say, you have to come here. Nowhere else you get the true Dhamma. No one would have come. I think Goyka's motivation for emphasizing the lineage is quite different because he is an Indian and he was successful as a meditation in India. But then when he was invited to visit Burma, he would be questioned by the Burmese audience how he can, as an Indian, he can teach the Vipassana meditation, which is so typical of Burmese Buddhism because Burma has many Vipassana teachers, not only Ubakindt, many others. And then to emphasize that Ubakin's tradition came from Lady Sirda, who is so well respected in Burma, Goinka made it a point to make the connection to Lady Siara because then he would be accepted by the Burmese. For the Indians, it doesn't make any difference. They don't want to be Buddhists. For the Indians, it is important that he says, it's not Buddha, it's Dhamma.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

It sounds like you're saying that his choice of words was really a framing technique. It was really just a, a conscious decision, almost marketing, to know your audience and to, to package the content in such a way that will be appealing and, and, and of interest to who your audience is and who you want to bring in.

[Friedgard Loadermoser]

Is that because the environment was different? Look at all the foreigners who came to goinga in the 1970s when he started, they had come because they wanted cheap drugs. That's how they came to India. They wanted hashish and whatever they could get in India. And they came to meditation because it was popular amongst the freaks. And whether they went to A Tibetan teacher or to Goyka or to a Hindu teacher that was all the same to them. And Goyka didn't have his own center. He had what they call these gypsy camps. Sometimes it was a Jain temple and so on. I've spoken to some of these early Western meditators who were set in a temple normally used by another religion in India. They have said, oh yes, the first three days until we had established our meditation as a group, it was very hard because the vibrations of the previous worship was all there. But they were in a group and they were trying hard. So by the end of the 10 days they had had a certain kind of success. And at the time of course also Goy accepted all these people. Then later there came a stage when the crowd was bigger. And then he taught his close disciples not to accept the people who went to Tibetan teachers and all this kind of thing, little by little. But of course he would always accept the Hindus because that was the majority of the Indians who came. If he said them, if he tells them after this doing this Vipassana will be a Buddhist, they would never come. And particularly I've seen so many pregnant Indian women doing meditation because it's supposed to to be a good preparation for easy childbirth. So of course their family, their husbands and their in laws and their parents and so on, they would all be very concerned that nothing happens to this pregnant woman in the 10 day course, particularly not strange men invading her bedroom, otherwise they wouldn't be able to conduct these courses. But you can't always also say that he didn't have a good reason. And you know that what happened is really after Uberkin's death, if he had continued a little more after his, the people he nominated got established then he could have kept them together. He could have said, so you better do a so and so, you better make up your difference. Or you resorted. Or he could even said no, I thought you were a good teacher, but actually in actual practice I don't think you should be my disciple if he wants to do that. But he was no longer alive. And then Mother Selma and the Burmese disciples, they really acted in such a way to split up the whole group. I think that these foreign candidates that were selected by Uberkin also had their reason for appointing them. And the Burmese disciples were too narrow minded because they didn't have the. But on the other hand, Uber had a natural authority. He wouldn't say you should come and learn meditation from me because I'm the disciple of Satyaji. He said I'm a well trained teacher, experienced teacher. If you want to learn, come. But if you come, you have to listen to me. Me. No, that is the. The request he made. So this formulation which they have, when they give anapana and they say I give up my. What is say Atababa jivitam in the hands of the teacher. Yeah, you give. Submit yourself and your life into the hands of the teacher. It's part of the procedure. And that was also used by Uberin in Burmese. But for a foreigner, I never heard it, because then I wouldn't have run away on day one of my first course, even at the age of 17, if someone asked me to submit my. My precious ego and my precious life into his hands completely. But he said, you have to have confidence. If you don't think I can teach you, then you don't need to come. And he. He spared us the ritual. He taught us anabada, he taught us the vipassana. And if there were. That is Uberkin's approach. If there are results, we talk about your own experience. What you experienced. Did you really experience? How was. Is simply because also it was more individual. And how can you imagine in those days, I couldn't even imagine a course with 500 people and from tape. When I first heard these tapes in Germany, tapes by Goenka, I said, what? What? And then I listened to the tape and it worked. I was very surprised. I scratched my head trying to find a scientific explanation why the tape worked. Because the person is not there. It's only the sound on the tape. But it does have a. It does have an effect going back

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

to this framing that Goenka chose. You know, it strikes me in thinking about this, that he may have made this decision to frame it and sell it, to package the contents to the audience in a different way that would be more appealing to them. And, and this might be the reason and the rationale behind it. And that's understood. But very delicately, I have to approach this topic by also noting that if in the effort to package and to present it, to make it appealing to a contemporary audience and different, coming from different cultural backgrounds, mainly as we've seen either Western hippies or, or, or, or Indian Hindus at the time, there does seem to be a. Something uncomfortable about the fact that this framing might not be exactly accurate and there might be challenges with accuracy in terms of the things you're saying, holding up to, you know, historical fact and precedent. And if that framing is not holding up to that truth, then I don't know I think it's. It's something of a problem.

[Friedgard Loadermoser]

Well, it's of course now take the case of IMS in usa Massachusetts. It was founded by disciples of Goa, but they also practiced other other systems. And I mentioned Goldstein and Cornfield who were one of the leading peoples. And it was founded at the time when Goinga couldn't leave India yet. But when he found out that they founded a meditation center without asking his permission out of their own enthusiasm and they didn't even think they need to ask him, then he tried to stop it and they didn't listen and then he cut them off. Was that right or not? Not. But on the other hand, if he doesn't do it, then who will respect him? And I should say that Uchitin and Mothersyama, even though they had only four centers, they will probably not say it in so many words, but they would act up to it. They would not accept people who kept trying different systems except for a few courses. But the other thing is whether it should be done only through tapes. That is a difference thing and that is not invented by anybody. Because only in Goinker's time when he started to train Assistant teachers in 1980s the technique was the device for tapes was in a standard where it could be applied. Well, Goenke himself when he was at imc. I'm now talking about the time when Webu Siadok came to visit in 1960. There is record that he had a conversation with Mr. Hislop who was involved in. In the. The meditation technique called by Mahesh Yogi, the Hindu technique. And this, this Hindu teacher stayed in Gonga's house and taught his whole family. And they had a discussion where they. About whether this Maheshogi and Ubekin caught the same thing or not. And they came to agreement. Yes, they were all the same Goycke in 1960. So that's certainly far away gone from what you're just telling me about the lineage and the pristine thing. The idea that you hand it down like only from the teacher, like you put an oil or you put a secret thing and only if your teacher allows you they can permit is not relevant even it's against Buddhism, I should say because in Buddhism they have Pacheka Buddhas. They are not even taught by Buddhas and they become still enlightened, you know, the. The Pacheka Buddha who arises in. In a time when there is no Buddha and he becomes enlightened by his own practice, no teacher. So it doesn't depend on pristine authority and, and Handing down from the days of Buddha. Because anyone who practices this with true devotion and knows how to do it. But of course you have. If you have a teacher, it's helpful because he can tell you where you make a mistake. In the road of meditation there are many experience where people get stuck, you know, they, they are getting stuck or in such a pleasant state. So I'm. I think they are enlightened. In the Pali commentaries there are many stories. There was a Buddhist monk in Sri Lanka and he thought he was enlightened. So he stopped trying. He thought I've reached the goal. But he had a disciple who was really enlightened and he could see that his teacher was not enlightened. And so he went to visit him. And the elder monk said, now what have you come? What are you doing? And he said, well, I've come to pay respects to you and ask you a question. How is your meditation doing? And then, oh, I'm doing fine. And so. And then the young, the younger monk who was the superior development in meditation, he was an arahat. He asked the elder one, oh, can you create an elephant? Yes, no problem. So he created an elephant. Then he said to him, can you make him flap his ears and come running at you with trumpeting with his trunk? And then he said, yes, of course I can do that. So he made it. And when the elephant was, was running towards him, then he got afraid and tried to run away. Then the young monk said to the elder one, now if you are enlightened, do you afraid of anything? Huh? Then the elder one realized he wasn't fully enlightened. That's a story from the commentaries. So if you have no teacher to guide you and test you and tell you, you get stuck. So a teacher is important and I think the only thing that is you should not change methods. I must say I remember a discussion I had in Mahapajapati five years ago with Goya, meditator American. And she said, what about this lineage? And so on and so on. And I only understood that she was limited. And I have had to be tolerant because I was not able to stay where I wanted. If I had my choice, I would go to India and study with Goynka. But I had no money and I was born in Germany, so I had to stay here. And so I had to stay with Denison. I didn't Ruth Denison. I didn't choose her. But she was the only one with whom I could easily contact. And it was successful. And she made me very broad minded because she was herself also open. But she went back to the basics because she could sense it if the person went wrong. Ruth Stevenson always told me, oh, I know this Hindu saint. He must have been an arahat. Then I had to say to her, Ruth, he's a Hindu. The most he will have is develop this jhana that's different from being Arya. And then she would say, ah, very interesting. But personally she, she, she played tapes where the Pope is and all the different religions are talking about their goodness. Goodness. But then of course she was not so strict as, as the Burmese and even the Indians might like her. But on the other hand, the Indians. Look, I've seen myself the, the teacher who was in charge of the Indian couple, who was in charge of all Europe, Doctors, Gandhi, there are two doctors, elderly people in charge of Europe now they are no longer alive life. And they came to Germany. And then he was talking that now they had contacts in America to the Ramakrishna Mission and that was a very good connection for them to spread Gankas Vipassana meditation in usa. I was thinking, well, Ubakin, would he use the Ramakrishna Mission to spread Vipassana in usa? Definitely not. Not. They did that because they're Indians and the Ramakrishna Mission is Indian. So if Mother Sama and Uchi didn't come, they will go to the Burmese Buddhist Vihara and then they wouldn't reach anyone because the Burmese, they, they don't mix so much with the Americans.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

Certainly it probably had some good effects and consequences for how it was able to reach people and bring them in, in ways that would were acceptable and adaptable for them to learn the practice. Practice. But every decision you make also has a cost. And I wonder if there is a negative consequence as a cost of framing things in a certain way that then become a mythology that don't accord to the historical evidence that we have in front of us. And that this does become problematic for students that are hearing something and believing something, which is not only narrowing their scope and making them more insular.

[Friedgard Loadermoser]

I can see it. But I think that none of the teachers are perfect. The dead Utidin and Mother Shaman. Certainly they produce good teaching and quality of teaching, but they didn't reach many people and they didn't give explanations many things. They had a formal year only they were thinking that it would be taught by the experience unspoken. So I think with the Western mind it works better if you give an explanation because some of the very sincere and devoted students like Mr. Hawa, he was really, he didn't. He was helpless Because Mother Sama didn't explain things and U Bakin would have given an explanation. I think that simply the experience they had worldwide, different cultures and also range in the case of Mother Sama and Uchidin was quite limited. I mean, Uchidda Uchitin had an education, of course, he finished the matric. And I don't know whether he went to university, but he had a training for his job in the Accountant General's office. He had a leading position, but Mother Sama was only a housewife. But she had this inspiration. She could sense these unspoken things that other people could not. And in fact, the name of Mother Sama was not invented by U Ba Kin. It was invented by. By SVE Thay, who was the first president of the Union of Burma, a Shan prince. He called her siama in the 1950s, when she was still quite a young woman. I also wanted to say because we have been talking about the medical side effects of meditation. Hava heard about this and he was so interested, he wrote a book on how to. To how to heal yourself through meditation. Then Goenka came up and said, oh, but he's demeaning the teaching because it's for the Dhamma, for escape from the worldly suffering. But I found out later from other disciples of Hav and from his daughter that they described that he very clearly differentiated this was meditation and this was health. But he specified in the health as a healing aspect of Vipassana enough to write a book on it.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

Well, Sayaji Ubakin himself was known as a healer in his time.

[Friedgard Loadermoser]

Yeah, well, that I didn't hear before. But he did make the point to Goinka himself that he couldn't come here just to get rid of his disease. And the thing is that even in Sri Lanka these things are much more believed. They think that you will be healed if you recite the Parita 100 times or a thousand times. And even when Covid came, if the whole country resides the Rattana Sutta because they were not in a position to give vaccination to 20 million people, but they definitely could make 20 million people recite the Radhana Sutta in a country like Sri Lanka. So they did that. Yeah, I want to make, well, let me see, to be quite definite through my experience, because I wasn't always able to go to the places where the teachers, the best teachers lived, which I had faith in. But I had to do with whatever my circumstances were. I do find out that even this authority, when you're selected as a teacher candidate it is helpful because then the teacher has encouraged you and you feel stronger because he's encouraged you. And if the teacher is Uberkin and you are Ms. Denison or Mr. Coleman or Goinker and he meditates at the same time, you feel it and you feel stronger. You feel that your teacher's influence is supporting you. So if you are not appointed by a teacher, you are that much weaker. But it doesn't mean that you cannot practice and it also doesn't mean that you cannot teach others. It depends. The Dhamma works. The moment the person gets enough concentration samadhi to keep his mind still and direct it inside the body and it becomes sensitive. It can feel the right of forward and follows the right road, then it will happen. I once made an experiment when I was in Upper Burma. And of course I had no permission to teach. I was considered very junior. I only had the benefit of d' Souzu's advice who was more experienced. And I think if I told her, she would offer his old or said Omar, don't do that. But I did it because I met. We met some meditators there in Vibhu Siadha's place. And we really wanted them to do vipassana meditation. But how to send them to Ubakin Center? Because they did develop also in vipassana meditation under Vibhu Siyadha's instruction. But it came much later. And I think most of the people practiced only got concentration. Not so many practiced vipassana. Amongst the monks there was only one or two who were seriously meditating to such a level that Beckham developed saints. But there was a young girl, a little younger than me. And she was there as a. She lived in Srebo and she wanted to go to university. But she had a foreign passport and so the government didn't permit her. So she came to in to meditate. And I became very friendly with her. And I was connected to her, her with her for several years. Even later when I was in Mahagan, I met her family. I met her. I met her younger sister. Two of three of us, she, myself and she and her younger sister, we were at Mahagan taking photographs, taking pictures and wearing the same dress. And so at on one occasion when we were both meditating, I tried to teach every Persona and I asked her her whether she felt anything. So at the point of on day four, when you do the vipassana, you are asked to put your attention on the top of your head. So that is also Uberkin's method. Before that you Put the concentration on the ongoing describes it very clearly as the area where the massage is. So even as a female you don't have a massage, but you know where it is. So that's a very better description than tip of the nose or upper tip lip. It's exactly that spot. And then you can concentrate, you can keep your mind still there. And then you transfer to the top of the head and then you ask whether you get some feeling. Not everyone gets it, but that is the beginning of vipassana. And then you extend it over her body. So I did that with her when we were together at Mahagandayan and apparently she had some understanding. I didn't develop it with her because I'm not a meditation teacher. But that means you don't need an authority and you also don't need a lineage. You only must know how it is done and then you must judge the person. You want to explain the point, whether it is ripe and then you have to try it. That's all

[Burmese Practitioner]

know.

[Friedgard Loadermoser]

But of course, if your parami is not ripe or if your capacity is there, then you get off into fantasy. I mean, said to me, if your special talent is in the field of samadhi, like for instance the Mahamogalana and Upalavana in the days of Buddha, who were the chiefs in samadhi? Then when you've at the time your param is not right, but you get into many wrong roads until you discover it's a wrong road. And so it's a hard work. I don't claim to be very good in samadhi. It's my weak point. My capacity is more in understanding things. But of course I can't understand anything. If my mind is not concentrated, then it is only intellectual understanding. I don't want to blame Goenka in general because he has done quite a good job. And he has done a good thing particularly. He has established sila in so many people to an amazing degree. But not everything he says is literally true. Because I've even heard him say that vipassana is mentioned in the Vedas, which is nonsense. It's historically not possible. Possible. The word vipassana itself is not very old. I've tried to find it in the Pali canon it is found. But in very late books, in the early days, they had a different way word for it. They called it amata, for instance, that means nibbana. In the Machimanikaya, how the body. Buddha describes how as a Bodhisatta he searched for release from suffering. And he at the End of the sutta. He describes the state of neurotransmitt order, but the word of vipassana is not found. But of course, you don't reach that stage without doing vipassana.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

I think one of the reasons why it's so hard to navigate discussions like this is because of the nuance involved. And you referenced how you, you don't want to be overly negative about Go Ankar's teachings because he's done so much good. I want to emphasize that myself and affirm that myself that I have so much gratitude for the journey that I've been on, that has been through his courses and the community that has been established and lifelong friends, brothers and sisters on the path that I have made through that practice. And also I think in some ways we have to acknowledge that we're standing on the shoulder of giants. You know, we right now in this year are able to make these kind of criticisms or refine points or look in examination because these people were, including Ganka especially, were trailblazing a path that there was no road to roadmap for much of this had never been done before. And they were doing this in real time and facing extraordinarily difficult conditions. Everything from splits and schisms to the issue of finance to formulating the teachings and bringing them to new cultures. I mean, you, you can't say enough about the challenges they faced and how they were able to meet them. So I want to be clear in this discussion, it's not focused on a negativity or criticism because there's so much good that can really be emphasized. And I, I would make the argument that, that the, the, the, the, the good that has been accomplished is something really widely appreciated and known. And so I, I, I, I don't, I don't know how to what degree we need to go in the direction of affirming what's largely accepted by, you know, how much he's accomplished and how, how good the practice has been and how it's benefited so many people. I, I would venture to say that's a fairly established fact that there's no need to challenge. However, there's an important, I, I do think that there's something important about presenting this nuance and understanding that in formulating the mission and the teachings and everything else, you have to make decisions. I mean, this is just a, a fact of the world. You, you have to make decisions and you have to, and, and decisions involve a sacrifice. It involves prioritizing this to give up that. And I think one of the challenges. One of the challenges in the mythology as we know it today is that the mythology kind of paints over the existence of these decisions or sacrifices happening. It becomes a mythology where there was no other way that these things could have turned out. It's almost like manifest destiny. There is. There is. There was a fate and a destiny of one way things could progress, and that's this pristine purity of a. A specific lineage that has brought these teachings unchanged until today.

[Friedgard Loadermoser]

And.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

And that's the story and the mythology that has been presented. And I. I think there's a way, there's a very careful and delicate way to navigate this conversation where we can hold appreciation and acknowledge the tremendous positive impact that Goenka himself and the Gonka Vipassana movement has had. You know, let's be clear on the world. I think that. That we can. We can acknowledge and affirm that. And yet, as we're acknowledging and affirm that, I think we can also shift over into looking at some of the nuance of maybe some of the unintended or accidental, harmful or negative consequences of that formulation, as much as that formulation made sense in the day and for the purpose he was doing. And within that context, that still does not preclude that there have not been some problematic consequences of the decisions that were made. And in my mind, one of those problematic consequences is that. That there has been a certain kind of insular thinking come in the form that has also come in the form of a mythology that's being presented that really cuts practitioners off from the greater Buddhist world and also traps them in this kind of mythological thinking that then contrasts and conflicts with historical evidences. I mean, just. There's many examples I can give of inaccuracies. You just gave one about the etymology of a passion. And I think that. That as this tradition has grown, and also, we have to understand this didn't all happen at one time. There was a gradual sense of how these things came along. Even the tapes that you've talked about, the tapes were not a intentional formal decision made overnight. It was the process. It was a gradual process that played out and eventually became codified. So much with the Goyka tradition are informal practices that became formal, became, and then became codified. And, you know, indeed, much of what he has said in. In oral discourses and instructions have become their own kind of scriptures to those people in the organization. Many ways, I would argue the. The scriptures of what Goenka has said is much more important and valuable and significant than the actual scriptures of the Buddha that that Goenka. Goenka's teachings and Persona have replaced in importance the historical Buddha himself. And. And I think that there's. But there's a way to navigate this conversation where you can recognize the difficulties that were being faced, have enormous appreciation for what he was able to do, recognize that we're standing on the shoulder of giants, but still be able to have a nuanced discussion about the unintended, negative and harmful consequences of certain decisions and sacrifices. Sacrifices.

[Friedgard Loadermoser]

Definitely there are certain inaccuracies. For instance, in the publications from the Vipassana Research Institute, Goenka is always presented as the one and only and most important disciple of Uberkin, which is not true. And he is also not the only one who was given the authority to teach. So is it necessary to do that? Does he get bigger because of that? He should. I think he should make an effort to stick to the facts. But the Goyka is faced with the Indian environment. The Indians, when I told them a little bit about how great Uber Kin was, then they said, oh, but are there two Buddhas? Because they don't also know nothing about Buddhism and. And all that. But I think if you go in search of the truth, and the truth is always preferable, so it's not true that. And sometimes some Indians seem to think that now, since they have gone, they don't need Ubakin and Buddha anymore. But that is not Gonka's fault. It is the Indian mentality. He has to, while he was alive, he could stop it now after his death. That's why all the year, I mean, I came back to Goenka's assistant teachers very late. It was in 95, so that means it's 35 years after my first course. And I came to. To meditate with Ruth Denison in 74. So I was with her such a long time. And those times I was not connected to Asia very much because I did my PhD, I didn't have money. And then I went to Burma, but mother Summer was in England and this and that. So I was becoming more tolerant because I had to live in the west and because Ruth Denison taught me. Also she forced me to attend a Zen course and a yoga course, which with my conditioning from Burma, I would have refused to do because they didn't recommend this kind of thing. Thing. But she told me, and of course it was good for me because I'm simply the person who sits and sits and reads and doesn't move about and not liking it. And now in my age, old age of 81. I have the consequences that I can't walk and I have to use a rollator and two sticks and all that because I have neglected sports in my life even before I start to meditate. I wasn't keen on it. But the pristine purity of the teaching of Lord Buddha certainly is not confined to Goenka.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

No, but, but, but to be clear, Goenka is not, he is not using pristine purity to talk about the teachings of the Buddha. He is using pristine purity to talk about the specific formulations and technique that he delivers givers. He's using the word pristine purity to define his technique and his technique only. So he's not using it to talk about the wider teachings of the Buddha and the practice of liberation. And I think this is something that does get confused in the mind of Goenka meditators is he uses, Goenka uses very inclusive and broad language to talk about the Dhamma and the Buddha's teachings. But what's tricky is that, and a little clever perhaps, is that actually when you look at how he's talking about the Dhamma and the Buddhist teachings, he's really only referring to his formulations and his technique and practice of the technique that his tradition is teaching. So when he's talking about the broader Dhamma, he's not talking about, you know, the monkhood or the other traditions or other meditation teachings or practitioners. He's, he's using a broad word to actually mean a very narrow scope of that word. And I think that creates a lot of confusion in practitioners. And I would also respond to something you said a few minutes ago, that the way that Indians especially have held him up, something of the God. And I would argue it's not just Indians. I mean, I know that's more in Indian culture to have a sense of gurudom, but certainly in the west, there are very critically minded people that, critically minded practitioners in the west who turn off their critical abilities when they enter the Goenka tradition. They, they understand that somehow they shut off that critical, critical capacity and follow the, and kind of rest in and, and situate within the mythology that's being presented.

[Friedgard Loadermoser]

Well, it works in different contexts. What I have observed in Sri Lanka, that even the senior teachers, when they talk about go, then they say, oh yes, of course, Goenka is then a great person, but who is he compared to Buddha? That's what the Sri Lankans say because they're Buddhists and that is why they hold up the, the Sangha, because that is their tradition. And then it becomes a problem because the Sangha and the lay people, it was not so easy to set up the first Goinka center in India because the monks objected. And then they had the first goinker center because Mr. Ratwate was an important person, a layperson, and he was more modern. And he wanted something with. Not traditional, but with concrete results. The way Ubakin was saying, if the meditation doesn't produce results, then why should we follow it? Simply because 2000 years ago somebody said we should do it.

[Burmese Practitioner]

That.

[Friedgard Loadermoser]

So that was Mr. Radwater who founded the first center in Sri Lanka. But now the lay Sri Lankans who had been vipassana teachers, they become monks and they think that they should have the lead because they wear the robe. That's most recent development. That, of course, is not found in other centers. But I think in the days of Lord Buddha, it was similar. After Buddha's demise, many things came up. Buddhism reached more people. It became larger. The Viharas became great mansions. They came monastic universities, and the crowds became millions. Particularly when Ashoka made it his mission to use the Dhamma even to conquer the neighboring countries without war, just by cultural influence. But according to Ubat that while after Asoka was dead, the vipassana practice slowly disappeared from India. It was only by word of mouth. They would still know Anitya, but they wouldn't know how to practice it. And even the famous area of pagan. The Raja Bishop has written in the history of Bur a Buddhist history of Burma. Buddhism in Burma or something. Little pamphlet he's written. He's written something like. But of course, in the pagan era, they did not meditate, which is probably true because they started with another variety of Buddhism. The Theravada was introduced later from during the pagan era, but only after they already were Buddhists. And the teachers came from Lower Burma, from the Mons. And they were influenced by Sri Lanka. Then in the Bagan era, they even invited monks from Sri Lanka and it became a sect. Several sections of the Sangha. One section was called the Lanka Sangha. That is written in the chronicles, the a whole chapter of four. You need five monks, and one of them has to be a vineyard expert to ordain a monk. So they invited these five monks trained in. Trained in Sri Lanka, and they founded the Lanka section. And then one of them or several of them left the order because they were worldly people. The king donated an elephant to him. And then this monk wanted to send the elephant back to Sri Lanka and give it to his relatives. But others said if you are a monk. You should release the elephant to roam free. And they had a big quarrel about it. What has it got to do with the Dhamma? Yeah, well, of course. So I think now the master is dead. So after him, even if the movement continues, that's the same even with Aurobindo. He built a. There was a town in India where all the people went after his death, even. But after the master is no longer there, the. The thing, even if it gets bigger, it. The quality cannot be maintained. Well, that is my view of it. And it's not. I am 80. I don't need to worry. I won't be here very long. But I would like to sit courses regularly because it's good for me. I feel better.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

Do you feel it's problematic in any way that your lived experience and memory of being around Sei Aji Ubakan and imc, from which this current, current Goenka tradition derives its whole mission from that there are things in your memory and lived experience which contradict the way that Goenka has framed this mythology. Do you ever feel at odds with that?

[Friedgard Loadermoser]

Well, I don't know whether I should say that on a tape, but I have to tell you the truth. And I feel a little bit that they are putting what you say, a mall cop in German, you know, like you. You put it on a dog if you don't want the dog to bite others. So in Germany, we use this. If you are prevented to speak out and you're prevented to use your talents, and that happens when you use the tapes. All these assistant teachers who are using the tapes, they may have talents and of course they may deviate from what the original teacher says, but they have the. Their own talents. And that couldn't have happened if the technology to have these tapes didn't exist. It's not important which words and which kind of voice the spirit goes. It is not seen. Mental vibration is created by the human being, and that is mainly by the meditator. And the teacher has and influence in guiding it because he is more experienced. But. But if he is not able to explain it in his own words. I have seen that in some senior Indian teachers who teach the long courses. And they asked me to translate for. For a Burmese monk who didn't know English and the teacher didn't know Burmese. So I did some translation. And then this Indian teacher very honestly admitted to me that if he came across a problem in teaching the long courses that was not answered by Gonka's association, then he would go Back to the spiritual practice he had before he knew Vipassana, which was not in any way Buddhist, but he was a very good man. But that is what you have. You have to use your own capacity. And you can only teach as much as your own understanding of the Dhamma is.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

So it sounds like when for you, looking at the Gonka mission and the. The different. The decisions that he's made and the way he's went about it, it sounds like the most problematic and concerning feature for you was the decision to use tapes.

[Friedgard Loadermoser]

Yeah, well. But of course you couldn't protect the uniform environment if you didn't have the tapes. Because the Indians are very creative. Even I understand why Gonge doesn't permit recitation. I had my own private experience. If you ask an Indian to recite, you better be careful. And you see, you first test what he's going to do. If you ask that in Burma or in Germany, it's not so much. But I made a mistake. I was supposed to give a lecture on Metabhavana and it included a taped recitation and the tape didn't work. So I thought we will do a live recitation. And then the person who helped me to find my way from the railway station to the university, he requested me in his over eagerness whether I would permit him to recite it. And I said yes, that was very wrong. I should have recited myself. Because the way he recited it, it really killed the whole lecture. He had a very funny way of reciting it. I don't know who taught him and I also didn't know it. Only when this came out of his mouth, only then I understood.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

Obviously there was a reason why Goenka would do this. There was something. Whatever the sacrifice that this decision has caused, there was an intention and a purpose in why he chose to go this way. Even though, as you've mentioned before, Sayaju Bakin did not and you think would not do that. So just as you've described how Goenka was orienting and formulating his teachings to the audience at the time, in the context, what do you think about the reasons and rationale that went into why he chose to implement this tape system?

[Friedgard Loadermoser]

Apparently it was trial and error because the tapes were there. And when he tried to teach his senior students to teach their own courses because he was getting too many courses and he was also getting older, then it was convenient because it was easy, but it was actually also not encouraged them to develop their own capacity to talk about the Dhamma in their own words. And of course it made it uniform to have the same color of cushion. They even have to have the same color of cleaning utensils in different centers and have the same program for every day and have the same recitation on everything. And for one thing, why didn't he teach, attempt to teach these assistant teachers to recite their own Pali?

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

Do you think a reason for this could have been that there was simply a lack of trust in the development of the teachers he was appointing? It seems hard to think of another possible rationale than, especially when you use the analogy you said of putting the kind of shield on the dog's face to prevent them from engaging that this is. You only do that to a dog. You don't trust you. You put that shield on a dog that you don't trust to not bite and cause harm.

[Friedgard Loadermoser]

If Ubakin had trained his disciples, even his close disciples like Udinyi and Ubapo, he wouldn't have required them to play tapes with Ubakin's sermons. He might have standardized what is done on day one, day two, trade through and how to start the course and how to finish the course and all that and how to answer particular questions. But, but I cannot imagine that he would have had this. You know, there was even a monk who was conducting a course, a Western monk. And he said in the middle of organization, he said, oh, I have to press the button. So. And so this tape takes so much attention. I have no time to meditate in the course because I have to press a button for the correct tape. That is, you're being ruled by the machine. Well, when I first came, Gonga mentioned three projects. They were going to start a private university. So I thought they would invite Goyka meditators from Burma who had experience at the university. But it actually the only concern about buildings for the teachers and giving facilities to the men first. And then the leader, the new leader, the lady, she had no time, but she called me for discussions how to develop this. And she said, well, well, what does Guruji actually want us to do? Because we are supposed to teach Hindi and to teach Chinese and to teach Burmese. And these Indians didn't know how to implement it. So the university never, never materialized. In the end, what they did, they offered an air condition course at the Big Pagoda in Bombay. Air condition, huh? Is it necessary? But of course it will impress rich Indians. And then after that they were taught less and less Pali, but they got a certificate with the Pali here. I'm not at all satisfied because they simply wasted the time of the students, there were some teachers. They taught them one letter a day of the Hindu Alphabet. That's not the effective way to, to learn Pali. You can easily write it in the Roman characters and tell them that there are many different scripts. And if you want to write it in your own script, then you teach yourself. But they should concentrate on grammar and then on reading Dhamma texts instead of that. They use the Pali students to clean the. To clean the meditation hall at the end of the course. Well, okay. Well, when you don't know what you are missing, then you don't know how to improve it. The quality of Pali teaching was absolutely unsatisfactory. They could have, they could have taught them more even if they had only nine months for the year. And that is simply by the Indian teaching method. Little sentences and then takes three sets because the first question, examination questions are stolen and the second one also so to. But you'd actually. The people who learn Pali in there, as meditators, you don't need to examine them because if they don't want to learn it, they wouldn't come because they don't get any material benefit from learning Pali there. But you should provide them with a library. You should encourage them to read. You should encourage them to study their own subjects and then give talks to the audience about this subject and all that. And that was not done. Instead of. They asked the people from the village to sleep on the veranda so the Pali students couldn't enter the library. Yeah, but that's the Indian way to organize things. And the one thing is even that it works because they are large in numbers and, and they keep trying. So there's some certain amount of success that is not found in the west because here the efforts may be better organized, but there are too few people and they don't put enough energy into it. That is my conclusion after spending years in India.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

Well, thank you for another lovely session of sharing your thoughts, insights, background being. You reference how you felt that your strengths and backgrounds were perhaps not properly used as they could have been within the tradition or the practice, but they're being used now. And I really appreciate hearing these things. I'm sure our listeners do. I just. Thank you for taking the time, being gracious, opening up. And I just so appreciate what you've done and what you have to share with all.

[Friedgard Loadermoser]

And I tell you why I stuck to it because the meditation was wonderful and I found that I couldn't do it on my own because there were so many courses I could sit and that was very good for my spiritual development. So I gave up the. The capacities I might have had in. In instructing others. But if I didn't go back to Gonga, of course I could have become a meditation teacher in the west, like some people who open up a practice as a psychologist or all that. But I wouldn't have been happy. That's not what I wanted. Ruth Denison has several disciples who have done that. Too many Dhamma teachers in usa. Different types.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

All right, so a. Having listened to this sixth installment of Freedgard Loadermoser, I know that you've written down some points. Like all of the episodes, it is chock full of details. I think every person hears something slightly different and every time you hear it, you hear something slightly different because she speaks in such layered ways and goes into such rabbit holes. But start us off with what is the first observation or talking point you'd like to reflect on? That really stood out to you from this episode?

[Burmese Practitioner]

Okay, so I think that the first thing is that, that like that I have the uber kin recitation of the text when the k, like trying to control, you know, the Yangon. So I think that she mentioned about the text called Upada Senti text and I don't exactly know about that text like until I, you know, let's listen to her saying. And it was like written in like, I think that in northern text, Thailand, Chiang Mai, Lana like region and which was like controlled by the Burmese for like at least like 200 years under the Burmese control. So I'm really interested about that because like she mentioned that it's about like, like worshipping or paying homage to 28 Boda. And like as far as I concerned that Myanmar is the only country who, who like, like, you know, paying homage to 28 Boda because like the rest of the like, like terror of our country is like only like you know, pay homage to like God Boda. But that is quite hard to say that interesting, like historical. Like, you know, interesting thing about that. And yes, that's, that's the first, first thing I noticed and it's quite interesting to me.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

And, and I think another interesting thing about that is that there's often a pushback when we see monks that start to get involved and Burmese Buddhist monks, when they start to get concerned about the collapsed economy or the poverty conditions or lack of human rights or democracy and say no, no, no, you monks, you're supposed to just be involved in religious things and let the society go. And yet there are so many examples that we Find when we look into it, of where meditation and Buddhism and monasticism has leaned one way or the other in. Into worldly affairs in some, some very strong ways. And you know, this is particularly interesting in a, In a tradition going outside Burma. When you look at the Goinka tradition which you know, strongly encourages non engagement and, and, and. And kind of an insular way of approaching the practice and the theory of change that's based on intensive silent retreats rather than. Than. Than looking at Eng. Bringing that, engaging that into the world. And so I, I think in both those cases, whether you're looking at the way the Guanka narrative and organization frames itself today or whether you're looking at some of the more conservative pushback within Myanmar monastic issues, this is a case in this, in this example you've given where Ubakin is, is. Is is using protective chanting as a way to influence worldly outcomes. I mean this is not an outlier. We should also say there are many examples of Lady Sedera and many who came before him of, of doing just this. But looked at in today's context, it can seem something that kind of stands out or goes against the way we hear about it. So what was your. From both of those perspectives, those modern perspectives, what was your thought about kind of the relevance of. Of. Of Ubakin using his, his meditative prowess and, and his. The. The. The ability of chanting to influence worldly affairs?

[Burmese Practitioner]

Wow, that's a tough question. I mean like U ba Kin is that a lot of like bummies have a, you know, like, I mean in order to do that kind of thing, you have to be like enough power me to. To make it that kind of like, you know like how to say that. Use that power and work it. Definitely have that kind of power and like a daytime and you know, like that kind of thing. And but looking. Looking back now and you know at the time that like basically that civil war is like happening. So he might probably, probably think that that is the best, you know, for him.

[Friedgard Loadermoser]

Right.

[Burmese Practitioner]

But like to control the, like to control the world, to control that, to make it peace. It's not, I mean it is. I feel like that like if we, if he look at it now, I, you know, he might probably like oh, I shouldn't interfere this one. I know that's like my like honest opinion. No, like what about me?

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

Yeah, well, I mean I reference in there the story of K.T. lynn, you know, who's a young soldier in the Bahar army and is credit is credited single handedly with with holding off a number of Karen insurgents that are coming and, and saving the city. He's, he's seen as a hero and he. And KT Lynn is alive today. He's, he's in his 80s and after the 2021 coup he said, you know, I think maybe I did the wrong thing. So, you know, there's, there's this wider scope for sure.

[Burmese Practitioner]

Yes, yes.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

So what's another talking point you want to bring us?

[Burmese Practitioner]

So I think that you know, then Friga, like she made a vow to learn from the U ba Kin and I think that is like really like interesting because like she left when U ba kin like die, right? That kind of this. So basically she fulfilled her like, you know, her like text and you know, that's also like. And another thing is that she want to be. She want to be a nun and that is the third world or something. So she fulfilled that too. So I think that she have a good life because she fulfilled her wishes and you know, she managed to learn from the teacher. She want to too. And yeah, she lived in the Burma and you know, learned from the greatest teacher and she fulfilled her well off being to be picked and nut. So yes, I think that is like very, very good life. She have a very good life. Remarkable life.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

Right. So she takes three Aditans and strong determination. She describes the mental process of how you approach an Aditana and she describes how Ubakin in worldly manners would also bring this concept of Aditan to some of the work he did as well. Just a snippet. There's actually Ubakin, there's so many examples in his life. She just gave a few of them. Can you tell us in within Burmese Buddhist history and context, what role the Aditan has in worldly and spiritual affairs that you've come across?

[Burmese Practitioner]

I think that like in order to make that editan like to actually walk, you need to be like at least like five. Like at least keep the five percept. You know, basically doing married as much as you. You can. And, and how to say that it's. It is like that I will do good deed. I will not hand other people like and then you know, and because of this merit, I may attain this and I may get this. And so it is like very strong determination and because like for Bummy, it's like sometimes that we, we tend to give promise that we didn't keep it. You know, that's why maybe my, my addition never worked and but like, but for her I think that she is like really Dedicated, you know.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

So yes, that, that concept is something that really affected me profoundly when I at looked, lived in Burma, was seen the way that Aditons would, would be utilized. And what, what really struck me was I think as a Westerner, sometimes we come with this idea of, of this perfection that we're aiming for and we're not quite reaching and, and we beat ourselves up because of it. That we, that, that, that there's this idealized version or, or protocol behavior that we want to get to and when we don't, we just kind of think, well there's I've, I've, I failed. And what I was endeavoring to do, where we look at some of our faults and the way it was explained to me is that whatever accumulation of good that you've done, that is something that you hold on to with great pride and great force in terms of what you want to accomplish. And there's nothing too small that is meaningful for that. If you, if you've gone a day without killing an insect, if you've gone a week without drinking alcohol, if, if, if you haven't told a lie this month, or if you have, then maybe it's been, I don't know, five days since you told a lie. But whatever, whatever accumulation of good that you've done, you recognize that you hold it and you, you harness it and you access it. And, and that was quite a powerful antidote for, for this kind of reflection of never being good enough that I think so many of us Westerners have. And, and seeing how there could just be this, this joy and this confidence and this assuredness that, that I have done this good thing. And as long as you're being honest with that whatever, however much or however little it is, and the more obviously the better. But don't diminish that small. You give a hundred chat at a, at a pagoda and you do it with a mind that's full of meta and joy of, of what you're able to offer and that, and you harness that that means something, that accounts for something and that that's a, a practice that I really have not seen carried effectively outside of the culture. You talk about how learning the practice is also learning the culture. And that's an aspect of the culture that is beyond the meditation sittings and, but you know, is cultivation of mind just the same, but really taught me about the power of being able to, to recognize and take joy in the good deeds that you do and to, to, to also acknowledge where you feel short but not to let that get in the way and prevent the, the joy and the merit of what you've done. You can improve those other areas. But you can also recognize that I have done this much and by, by this declaration of truth, I have made a declaration of truth that I have done this. And by that declaration of truth may, you know, whatever happened, happen. And that is, that's a very powerful concept.

[Burmese Practitioner]

Yes. And I think that that concept is like, like how to say that like evolved from a B D MA concept. That that's what I being like told because like the mind is that you know, the most powerful things and we are like multiplying the good deed that we made it. We rejoice this and kind of like so that's why I feel like that, you know, people said that like if you do make a mistake, don't think about it, okay? Just like, okay, learn from it. But don't, don't think about it. Don't like keep thinking about it and regretting it because it's no, no good use for that. But if you do good things, keep thinking about it, you know, keep talking about it and keep remembering about it. And then that's like positive mind will be like, will multiply. I feel like there is like that concept is like unique to like a bit of art like kind of way of thinking. That's what I've been told. One thing I really like interested about is like what UBA Kian said about his lineage. You know, that is like. I mean I think that like a lot of like people outside of Myanmar is like really want to know about Lady Linnae and UWA came because they are the first like especially for the like lady like he, he is the first like kind of like meditation teacher that they can trace back to him. But you know, so most of the Western like meditator like usually like came from like lady or kind of like, I mean she's the fast man kind of like though. So I think that yes, like, so what U Bakin said about his lineage and what Goinka said about you know, his lady. So yes, that is quite interesting topic, isn't it?

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

Yeah, I, I think so for sure. I mean the comment about her joke that you know, walking around Germany and saying that you, you're a Christian in the tradition of Martin Luther, everyone would, would laugh you off the street. And so there was no need for. And you know, again this is so amazing because she's not talking about theory or assumption. She lived in, in Burma in this time. She was, she was in, in proximity of these great teachers and, and understood the background of which they came. And so is, you know, experientially telling us that in, in that particular context, it. It just simply wouldn't make any sense. It would just be ridiculous for, you know, the entire country kind of following in the footsteps and legacy of Labor Lady. For one person to say, well, I am practicing in the tradition of Lady Seda. But then when Goenka goes out, there's a different reason that he has to establish legitimacy by, you know, Goenka doesn't fabricate the lineage. Of course these figures exist. And of course they, they. There's a teacher student relationship. That's all true. But he did create certain kind of containers that tightened and put lines in what the lineage represented that I think is not quite so accurate as the fluidity and the. In the context of what you find in Burma. And, and I think, you know, she gives a good explanation as to how Ubakin framed it and then what Goenka did and how he had to. To then frame it for his own legitimacy and as he then took it out of. Out of Burma.

[Burmese Practitioner]

Yes. I mean, it is true that the whole country, you know, is the student of the Lady Xiao. Because when he was like famous, he is like really, really famous. You know, every household have a Lady Seattle book. Even my, we don't have it now, but even my grandparents, like they have a book written like by Lady Seattle. I mean, I tried to read when I was young, but I didn't understand it. So the. His name, the Lady Seattle name is like a huge name. I mean, I mean even like if you compare with the Lady Seattle and Bingun Seattle and like Mahasi, like daddy name is like a lot bigger, you know. And because like he like how to say, I don't know that you know, about another Seattle called me Seattle. But I think he, he is like 18th century. But before that time, you know, like people think that like meditation like or like being Reya is no longer possible. Even monks, like, they feel like, okay, okay, let's, let's, you know, it's that it won't be easy to be at Arham. So that is. That's what like most like Burmese believe. But me is that like I think that she is like 18th century. Like I kind of guess. I don't exactly remember. But he is someone that, who like saying that okay, meditation is possible. Like being, you know, Arya is still possible being Arahan chemist practice. This. He is the one ended actually. So he is the one who wrote about it and the lady Seattle is like later, okay, I'm going to test it. And you know, he might probably not like, you know, Aria, but he got all the jhana, you know, and if you got all the jhana, you'll be able to see your past life and future life as well. So. So the lady Tarot achieved something that you know and he might probably able to predict like his future life and he. His met, you know, like what is going to be he. So. But you know, I think that is one reason that why people like respect him a lot. Because like ladies Yarrow is that one who popularized like Vipassana. Because in the past people feel like they're okay. That is no. No longer possible, no longer even to get a J because J is like really hard to get it right. So that's why I think as you

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

were saying that I was trying to think of a Western equivalent of Lady Se. I. I was trying to think of a Western example of someone that everyone knows, that everyone refers back to. People have books of this person in their home and that some people know and study more, some people less. But it's just an undeniable presence. And I was thinking who would this be? And the answer I came up in my head for an analogy that I'd like to test out would be William Shakespeare. That I think that the, the influence that William Shakespeare had over drama, over comedy, over movies, over storytelling, over books, over prose, over poetry, over story arcs and character arcs and language. You know, it's, it's profound. It, it. I'm sure that it didn't start with him and I'm sure that there were very important innovations that happened after him that he wasn't capable of or didn't do at the time. But he holds a place that is, is just undeniable in, in all these features and everyone knows him. And I think I was thinking that because when you were talking about when you grew up in your grandparents home and seeing a lady book and wanting to read it. I remember being a kid and seeing Shakespeare on the shelf and kind of. Of wanting to be old enough to read it. And I read it when I wasn't old enough and I was like, I don't understand any of this. You know, this is, this is so confusing and. But it was kind of this pinnacle of, you know, of. Of something I wanted to aspire to, to understand Shakespeare. And you know, I would, I would say whether you know it or not, pretty much everyone in Western culture has, has access Shakespeare in some form. If you've not actually, you know, read the, the plays in college or acted them out or gone to a play or seen it or seen a movie rendition modern day version of, of, of some of the plays or even, you know, something like west side Story, which is a, you know, west, west side Story is a kind of more modern day contemporary version of Romeo and Juliet. And there's so many of those stories that are, that, that, that take those themes and then put them in kind of modern ways. And so Shakespeare is everywhere. And so if you were in a Western, if you, if you were doing storytelling or movies or plays or prose or something like that, and you were to say, well, you know, there's this guy called Shakespeare and I was really influenced by him because you know, I don't know if you know, but he did this and that and you know, people would look at you like you're crazy because it's Shakespeare. Of course everyone knows that, that, that, that everything we do comes and originates from Shakespeare. However, if you were to go to a non Western country that didn't have knowledge or access to the kind of, of storytelling techniques that we've developed here that have originated from Shakespeare, it would be very different to establish your credibility as a playwright or an author or an actor or something by saying, well, what I do is very much in the tradition of William Shakespeare. Because you see, William Shakespeare taught this and wrote this and he incorporated this and this is why I do what I do. So I think it'd be very interesting to kind of look at that example of an outside culture looking at like, oh well we're writing or studying in the tradition of William Shakespeare. That's really interesting. And yet in western societies you would never say that because you know, anything that you do, whether you know it or not, has somehow been influenced by William Shakespeare. And I wonder if that could be some kind of rough equivalent for what we see with Lady Seder.

[Burmese Practitioner]

Yes, yes, I, I agree. Yes, I agree. I think that another interesting talking point will be like what Uber King and going to think about the Sunrong technique. It is like I mean for, well for me like you know, when I heard about the, the like Sun Seattle, it's like at the time like you know, name is like it's quite big and big is like because of that. I mean when he like people starting to, to know about this kind of like how can a man who never, you know, like let's say that study about the priority can be arahant. So a lot of men and laypeople go and test him, you know, to. So I think that there will be a lot of like doubt definitely. So I think Uma can also share that like have that the doubt in the like beginning. But, but now like if we, if you look at now I think that most people believe that yes he is a Arahan and despite his technique is a bit like, I mean you know like fast reading. But at the time a lot of monks and like lay people go and test him and a lot of monks who are like well knowledge in the scripture. And I feel like that you know, if you actually like let's say that if you are educated monk it is more easy to lie or pretend that you are at hand because if you never read about the scripture, he will only explain what he experienced. And the Len man can be like check it right? That's, I mean so that's what I feel because like I think that it is more like easy to get it. Like it's more easy for like you know, to lie if you are landed man because you know all about the scripture. So you know about how a hell will be step by step experiencing. But if you never learn about the scripture like you won't be able to lie. So if I look at now I feel like that someone Seattle is like a real like Erhan and even though like he, he practiced like fast breathing technique and yeah his maybe his mother like stat is a bit different from like the times the Buddha teaching. But I do fully feel that you know, he is a, he is a good man.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

I mean these are really interesting elements you're bringing in because on this particular episode it's not just Sunlun Sayada, it's an. You know, for those not so familiar with Burmese Buddhist figures, this probably went past a lot of listeners. I'm wondering if you caught it. But you know, Tambodi Seda there's. There's also a reference to Ubakin's discomfort with Ambodi Seda. The extent that he told his close practitioners not to have anything to do with that site or that place. And this gets into this concept of where all these different traditions and figures coexist with each other. Because to complicate matters further, you know, Soon Lun said on Webu say that we're good friends. They, they. They met each other practice. They, they inaugurated a Sema hall together consecrated Asima together they. They discussed meditation and technique and practice and, and, and, and Webu Saida was so important to be Kin's story and yet soon Loon was not and that's something we have to figure out. And then we look at, you know, Mahasi was another great figure there, and we could say Ubakin had a bit of a skeptical relationship with him. And this is not to just talk about Ubakin and Goenka. I mean, of course we, we spoke on, on our separate podcast together about some of the persecution and the, the criticism that Pauxed out received. And you know, certainly Pauxeda Anu Pandita in particular had a very public, testy and confrontational relationship. And, and so there's, there's, there's a lot of history of that. And I think what strikes me is that, and I think you said something similar to this on, on our separate podcast interview. From my perspective, when I came in with a Goenka background, I, I learned and I imbibed for years the Goenka world view, the Goena Ubakin worldview and, and, and universe and cosmology. And you know, everything made sense. Everything fit. Everything. It, it, the, the practice and the path and the instructions, the technique, the teaching, everything fit within that, that, that universe that was being described. And not only did it fit, but it seemed kind of hard to conceptualize how another framing could even take place. This had to be the only, the only coherent logic of how it all came together. And then when I came to Burma, I started to understand a bit about the Mahasi cosmology, the, the Utejianiya Shwayumin cosmology and some of the other traditions and the ways that they framed, you know, why they taught, what they taught and why, why and how it made sense and how that universe came together. And I came to realize, oh, wow, this also makes sense within. If I'm just in their framework, if I'm just in their mode of understanding, it makes a lot of sense how this all comes together just as how the, the Goinka and Ubakin world universe come together. And so I think that is something not so much to be skeptical with, but to be aware of that, that there are these silos. Being in a silo doesn't necessarily mean that, that, that the thinking is wrong or inaccurate, but it does mean it's being informed and reinforced and perhaps have maybe having some confirmation bias within fitting into what that silo is. And that's where it does become very interesting to, you know, and if we had more time, it would be very fascinating to take, you know, an hour and move into the Soon Loon universe and talk about, you know, who he was, what his background was, what is Practice. What. And you, you referenced a bit of that, but you know, what his practice was and, and, and how he made sense of it and, and actually come. You know, we have a. On we've, we've been trying for years to nail down an interview with a, a Russian meditator who has become one of the foremost Soon Loon practitioners and teachers and has taught soon across Russia and Eastern Europe and, and, and Western Europe. And, and that would be the person to bring in and say okay, tell us about the Soon Loon universe and how that made sense. And, and we would get a whole different understanding that wouldn't necessarily conflict or contradict what we're hearing from Ubicin and Goenka, but it would, it would be a major contrast in terms of how they're fitting everything together. And I know that that's something that you also as I mentioned you, you brought up what that was like for you growing up and growing up where Mahasi was preferenced. And then you started to learn the way Pauk system was working internally. And then through our podcast you learn more about Goenka Anuba Kin. And so you know, but for, for listeners who have only really situated themselves inside one of those universes, it is hard to understand how a completely different one within that same context is setting up their own facts and stories and narratives.

[Burmese Practitioner]

Yes, I think that. How to say that I feel like that Goinka and like Uaki have like more like better like marketing kind of tactic. You know that's. I think that's like very. And even like I think that you know another thing is that they, they do use like. I mean especially for going up they. He used the tape. So it is more like this the like how to say the tradition is like like more like strong backbone because that they always have the tape. But if you know like like other tradition like the, the tradition can die when the, the lead teacher die and his student can bring like another, another aspect. So maybe a little bit like you know, because like his personal will be like personality can be like display Like. I think that because especially with the like, you know, I really like his teaching because like you know, because like he is more like.

[Friedgard Loadermoser]

Like.

[Burmese Practitioner]

Yeah, I mean for, for like for me personally I, I really like his teaching and I think his teaching show his personality too. So, so the kind of thing. So you know, I think that there's a like how to say that using tape and using this kind of like as a backbone and that also a good thing but also that like constant changing is need like, because like meditation that our society is changing. Right. So the technique need to be changed. I mean.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

Yeah, and not just the technique but the style of instruction and the relationship. Because you know, you look at the, the post war meditation boom first in Burma and then across the world and I mean especially you read like Ingrid Jort's book of the Mahasi revolution in the 1950s and beyond and it's this, you know, she's talking to informants, Burmese informants that are just describing this extraordinary sense of liberation and responsibility and, and personal agency towards their own liberation that just didn't exist before. And so the, the, the, the construct of a meditation center, a meditation teacher, a, A time bound course where you would come to learn things on set days and you would finish at a set period and you would, you, you would also be able to mark in some ways your spiritual progress. You know, these were extraordinary innovations of the time and they also fit into the book Post war Independence World. And then of course when the 1962 coup came along, as we learned from Gustav Haltmann, that then influences what happens. But I've, I've long been curious about, you know, okay, this is a model that was incredibly innovative and, and useful for its time. And it's not to say it's not useful now, but it is to say like do we have to stick with every aspect of how it developed within these different traditions or what are ways that, that we can look at modern society with its technology, with its, with, with, with our interconnectedness, with the way that our, our brains have, have started to mold through you know, Internet and AI and everything else and, and what we expect and you know, are there, what kinds of innovations can we see today? And that's where I, I see, you know, I do see Utasiania as, as, as having an approach that does seem more modern modern in, in, in how he's situating and you know, and it also leaves open the question of what, what further innovation can we see that, that, that maybe we can't conceptualize now, but, but, but how can we not get stuck on one pattern and have an evolving form of practice just as we're saying everything else is evolving.

[Burmese Practitioner]

Yes, I think, I mean, I like how to say that. I would like to know what the, I mean because like you, you know, in the, in, in in the free guy she mentioned about that, you know, IMS is like founded by the people who being like, like training with the going cup at, you know, but he's not like going center. Right. So kind of I mean that's like. I know that a little bit, bit conflict kind of thing said. I mean I, I want to know what is like, you know, like, I mean like opinion like, because like, I mean in the Bami, like kind of like concept this is like tightly controlled that you know, if you want to like establish a meditation center, like you need to get approval from landed man kind of thing. Right. You cannot just like, like, you know, go out and set up the center. But like so, but like, you know, things like, I mean especially like in the America like you, they, they need to make a new system and with the resources they have. Like. So yeah, I think that it's like interesting topic you know, to discuss about it.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

Sure. You know, but at the same time I would push back with an example of imf. It's very, very different from ims, but it kind of fits that model of years ago when I was in the Sagayne Hills, I went to the enormous Patipati Meditation center that Siddhagusada had built and multi million dollar facility. I mean just ornaments and every door, every decal, every statue, you know, every plant, everything was, was meticulous and of the highest level of quality as you would expect with the, the money that Sidgu Saida has. And, and yet Siddhartha is not a meditation teacher. I don't even know if he's so much of a practitioner. Maybe in his early, I think in his early years I did hear that he, he was in the forest and he was practicing, but certainly not, not recently from anything I've heard. And so I, as I was getting a tour of the grounds, I, I asked the rector who was, who was guiding me. I said this is, you know, just meditation halls and dormitories for students and you know, dharma facilities. Just amazing. I asked him, well, what practice is going to be taught here and who's going to teach it? And there was this uncomfortable silence of like, well, we don't really know. We just built a meditation center. We have no idea what kind of courses or practice or technique we're going to have. A little different from IMs in terms of the, the background and the personalities, but similar in the sense and, and actually even Mahasi Sasana Yeta was a little bit, bit like that. It wasn't so diverse. But you know, the idea of building the Sasana Yita preceded knowing that Mahasi was going to come there. They built it. It's kind of like that, you know, Kevin Costner movie feel the dreams. If you know it, if you build it he will come. That famous line. They. They built the center. They built the Sasana Yta not knowing who the primary teacher would be. Just knowing that there had to be a primary. Primary teacher different from IMS because it was one teacher. IMS is. Is. Was. Was founded with a principle of wanting to have different. Different kinds of teachers and practices that were able to be housed under one roof. So the Sidigu example and the Mahasi example are somewhat different. But.

[Burmese Practitioner]

But.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

But you know, also kind of worth holding there in the conversation.

[Burmese Practitioner]

Yes, yes, that's true. And even on like I think that like how to say that like people view on the meditation center, it's like it is that like how to say newer concept than you know, in the. In the like in. In the past that. Because I. I think that the tradition is like more like. It's like more. I think that he might probably be the first one who. Who make it like a meditate. But of course he is the lead, you know, teacher of. But I think that now like maybe better like benefit is like just a you know, meditation center. But all the like, you know, different tradition and different like technique or different teacher can be like. Can come and train. Maybe that is like maybe better concept, you know, these days not to just stick with one tradition and you know, I think but make it like more you know, everyone can learn from different types of teachers. And I think that is also another good aspect with making that center. In the free Girls like interview, she said that like. I mean you know like in Beguin period like the. The Buddhism is like arrived to Burma like during like begin. And like people probably might not like practicing kind of thing, but in the like recent like discovery in the like begin period like stone inscription. There is a word mentioning about period and prepat. So. So we can assume that you know, the both theory and practice are being in the like practice has been like, you know, practice during that begin period too. So that's something that I want to mention it because I think that it's like it's a. Is a history offline meditation. You know, it's really important to trace that when the theory and practice together happening in Myanmar.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

Absolutely. Absolutely. So what did that make you think of it when you heard Friedgaard mention that?

[Burmese Practitioner]

I mean like of course like history is like, you know, because how to say that in. We don't. We still didn't know a lot about history, right. I mean most of the historical like detail we just like rely on that, you know from like oral tradition and kind of thing and the like palm leaf manuscript and the stone inscription and like you know, reading cover dating and that kind of thing are important too. But if you look at it that you know, Pew city state era, we know that the pagoda exists so there will be a Buddhism but not really like the you know, like Tirawara types of the like Buddhism that a king of Naruto wanted. So yes, I think that is like more research need to be done and to understand about the you know, history of the like the like Priyati and Prepati in Myanmar.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

Great Great. Well, thank you for coming on and sharing all of these thoughts and reflections about the sixth installment. I know you have been avidly listening to the first five that led up to this and I know that you'll continue listening to the remainder of the 45 hours as they get parceled out. And in closing I'd like to ask you looking back cumulatively at Friedgaard's life and what she represents. What her her, her hesitation to tell the story but her decision ultimately that it was a story worth telling. And how fortunate we all are that this now exists in the world. Having this foreigner who lived for a dozen years in in Burma some time ago and has these observations to share and her voice is with us today as a Burmese. What what of her story do you want other Burmese to know? Those those that aren't listening that that maybe don't understand English. If you were to to grab some of your family members or your friends or maybe you you've already done it. What about what Freed Guard represents or what she tells us or what her significant is? What stands out as something that you feel is is incredibly important for for for retaining back and keeping back among your your fellow Burmese that you you want to make sure they understand about what she's telling us.

[Burmese Practitioner]

I think that she I think that like she make like I I would I would say the word that your your sound engineer said. She make me feel proud. You know and someone who came to Myanmar, learned the technique and you know fulfill her life and and you know like thanks thanks for the like our like country and the people and the culture and I feel like that we have been like you know sometimes that we've been neglect ourselves just because of all the like unfortunate things happening. But now you know if you look at the history of meditation like worldwide meditation movement and you know that Burma play a very important role and I think that like all by Burmese should be proud and yes like and frugal testimony is that proof and you've Heard

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

a number of other foreign practitioners who know quite a lot about Burmese Buddhism through study or through practice that's there. In what ways does Freed Guard stand out even among those some of the other speakers we've been so fortunate to host that really have. Have been able to share quite extraordinary. Where where would you say Freed Guard is. Is different and special even in that company?

[Burmese Practitioner]

I think that she she have a like student of the you know CG walking and like if you look at the you know like current like let's say that most famous one would be Goinka but other people are just like not really you know word document or was. I mean it's not that very like well known like for example like Robert Harbour. Right and like frugal is like like in one of those and like Dr. Leon Wright. So I think that we should cherish other people as well you know and what they done to this this like the meditation like community. And even though it's not like well recorded and like well documented, they they they equally contribute too. So yes I think that I mean people will know more about other people like Robert Harold like and you know, the true God and Dr. Leon. Right through your podcast and yeah and appreciate more.

[Friedgard Loadermoser]

Sa.

[Burmese Practitioner]

Foreign.

[Insight Myanmar Podcast Host]

I want to share some of the reflections that were originally recorded with a senior vipassionate teacher in the Goenka tradition in response to Freed Guard's conversation that you just heard and which were intended to go into this space here. Although the actual discussion cannot be aired, I want to ensure that the points that were raised do not go unheard of. The ideas that follow provide a counterpoint to parts of my own interpretation and listeners should not be denied the opportunity to consider them for their own merits. Had the original conversation remained available, you would have heard me continuing to engage with several of these ideas. I challenged some assumptions, I asked follow up questions and I clarified where our interpretations diverged. First, it's important to convey the warmth with which this senior teacher received Friedgaard's intelligence interview. They were deeply moved by hearing someone who had practiced so extensively with Seijuba Ken and who could describe the early International Meditation Center IMC from within. They found Freed Guard endearing and transparent and courageous and profoundly human. They heard in her more than a historical source and felt her almost like an elder that was looking back across a long life and attempting to convey what those events had been meant. Her manner of speaking felt less like a detached analysis and more like a soft and layered form of oral history. They were especially moved by Friedgard's Aditan, or strong determination, because, you know, her life was shaped by vows, by sacrifice, by renunciation, and by the resolution to keep developing in Dhamma. Practice was not one interest among many for Freed Guard, but it became the central pillar around which the rest of her life was organized. The senior teacher also admired that Friedgaard did not fall into any sort of bitterness. It's true that she disputed exclusive lineage claims and touched upon potential inaccuracies, questioned the reliance on tapes, and criticized several institutional decisions. Yet she continued to recognize what Goenka accomplished and to remain grateful for the conditions that that his course system gave her. They heard in Friedgaard a rare combination. This is criticism without complete rejection and gratitude without idealization. So their overall impression was that she had lived an extraordinary, rich and beautiful Dharma life. That being said, the first major difference between their response and my own concerns is the authority that we give to Friedgaard's memories. You've heard me repeatedly emphasize that Freed Guard brings us into unusually direct contact with events that later became surrounded by an organizational narrative that I say kind of borders on mythology at times. Yet where I might emphasize here is direct access to what actually happened. The senior teacher would add, here is one deeply meaningful human memory of events. So while they did not deny the exceptional importance of Freedgard's testimony, they regarded it as just one living memory, adding that its experiential qualities cannot be reproduced through books or stories passed down through several people at the same time. They asked listeners to remember that oral history remains human memory. And they caution that stories may shift over time, that two people can witness the same event and remember it differently. In that sense, interpretation can evolve even when many of the underlying details remain stable. Personally, I would place somewhat more weight on Friedgaard's remarkable memory and the concept of consistency of details she provided and the depth of her immersion in this world. Next, the senior teacher was pleasantly surprised by how respectful Friedgaard remained throughout this particular conversation, and believed that there was nothing, at least in the six talk, that should have made Friedgaard ineligible to continue participating in the tradition or sitting long courses were this to have come out in her lifetime. While that may be the opinion of this particular teacher, the fact does remain main that in a previous episode, Freed Guard did recount the rather cold reception that she faced at the German and Indian centers. And she had other concrete reasons to be concerned, which were shared off the record to the point that she did require our conversations to remain private until after her death. Another difference concerned how the senior teacher understands the development of the Goenka organization. You've probably heard where I focused on how the organizational narrative, it provides this kind of conditioning, again, this kind of mythology or cosmology that I describe, and how that then can create these complexes within individual meditators, depending on how they hold it. I often ask how historical choices gradually came to be presented as timeless facts, and how one account of the lineage became authoritative at crowding out alternative versions. The senior teacher, for their part, placed much greater emphasis on the needs of improvisation, civilization. From their perspective, Goenka and the early teachers under him, they were human beings attempting to transmit something they deeply believed in and doing so under extremely difficult circumstances. These trailblazers, they were responding to rapid international expansion to new technologies and the practical problems involved in carrying a meditation tradition across cultures. Goinka, in this view, was not implementing a completed global system with the benefit of decades of hindsight. Rather, he needed to make decisions as unfamiliar situations and new challenges arose. So the use of recordings, the development of assistant teachers, the standardization of courses, and the language that was used to describe the tradition, they all emerged, in this view, gradually in response to real pressures. The senior teacher therefore believes that any criticism should remain attentive to what options were realistically available at the time. And in fact, I readily agree with this perspective. It's one you've probably heard me say on previous episodes. I think it's easy to look backwards with decades of accumulated information and to identify what might have been done differently. This is sitting on the shoulder of giants. It's much harder to reconstruct the pressures faced by people making decisions before anyone knew what the consequences would be. But this perspective also shaped the senior teacher's response to the idea of pristine purity. Friedgaard provided important historical context for that phrase in the Burmese Buddhist setting of the period. She suggested that the term pristine purity was used to refer broadly to the Theravada form practiced in Burma at that time as the preserved teaching of the Buddha, rather than as the dominion of a particular tradition. Here I might add a footnote observation that while it was not used to indicate the supremacy of any distinct lineage or technique, it did express a nod towards Bamar exclusivity. And this is an issue that remains fraught to this day in the wider Myanmar context. Still, as you heard me articulate in the interview, I remain concerned about the way that phrase pristine purity has come to take on a narrowed connotation intentionally used to describe this specific lineage and method. This narrower interpretation can encourage a feeling of superiority and discourage practitioners from taking other Buddhist traditions or historical evidence even seriously. The senior teacher, however, heard this history less as evidence of a calculated narrowing than as an example of how a Dhamma teacher adapts language to different audiences audiences. They pointed to a basic responsibility of teaching knowing who's in front of you and preserving the Dhamma in terms that person can understand. As we know, Burmese Buddhists, Indian Hindus, and Western spiritual seekers, hippies did not approach the practice with the same assumptions at that time, so Goenka adjusted his language accordingly. From this perspective, then, that adaptation was not merely packaging, it was also legitimate pedigree pedagogy. However, the senior teacher stressed that it does not quote, absolve every issue or concern, while again noting that we need to examine the consequences of these choices without forgetting the constraints, intentions, and audiences that shape them. We also differed somewhat in how we interpret Ubakin's vow during the Koren advance on Rangoon. I view this story as a striking example of meditation being consciously directed towards an external, social, and an indeed political crisis. Ubican undertook a vow, he observed strict discipline, he recited protections, and he directed spiritual effort towards solving an immediate worldly problem. To me this complicates Goenka's claim that meditation should remain strictly separate from social action. It to me this also appears Ubican's example as kind of a an early case study of what we might now describe as engage bull Buddhism. But the senior teacher redirected this interpretation. They argued that Ubakin was not taking a meditative tool out of the spiritual context because in an integrated dharma life there is no firm separation between formal meditation and the rest of existence. The point was made that the Dhamma is not limited to the hours spent sitting on the cushion, but also concerns how the remaining hours of life are lived. From this perspective, the vow does not primarily elicit illustrate meditation entering the political or social realm, but it rather illustrates a person whose response to every part of life, including national crisis, was simply being shaped by their experience with the Dhamma. The emphasis here is not on engage Buddhism as a separate category, but on the complete integration of practice into one's conduct, choices, and understanding. Another important counter argument concerned institutional budget boundaries. I emphasize the dangers of excessive boundary making, of insularity, of exclusion from the wider Buddhist world, the suppression of critical faculties, and the elevation of organizational narratives above inquiry. The senior teacher acknowledged these dangers but insisted that the opposite danger is also real. They describe the central tension as one between preservation and openness. If a tradition becomes too rigid, in other words, it may become very insular. But if it becomes too loose, the teaching and the pedagogical structures through which it is transmitted may dissolve, weakening the coherence that allows a recognizable practice to continue from one generation to the next. From this perspective, some boundaries may be necessary, and I agree with that basic point. The question is not simply whether boundaries exist exist then, but what they preserve, how they are applied, and whether people still understand the purpose that they originally served, and of course, how and if they can actually be talked about openly. Continuing on this thread, the senior teacher was particularly concerned with rules becoming fossilized. A guideline created in response to one situation can gradually become an absolute rule. Later generations may enforce it without remembering why it was established or whether the original conditions still even exist. This position does not defend every institutional rule. It calls for examining the history and purpose and present effects of each one. It also places responsibility on people currently working within the tradition. Institutional culture is not only something inherited from Goenko or the first generation of teachers. It continues to be formed through the choices that teachers and trustees and staff, servers and students make. Next, where Freegard expressed concerns about the recorded tapes and standardized instructions and the limitations placed on teachers, this senior teacher placed greater emphasis on the overall practical effectiveness of the course system. And this did in fact mirror one of the concluding thoughts that Freegard expressed just now that whatever her misgivings, these courses did allow her to practice deeply and to a degree she did not believe she could have sustained by herself after leaving Burma and after leaving IMC and after Ubican died. So it was this transformative effectiveness that became central to the teacher's main argument. Whatever the organization's imperfections, the point is that it continues to provide people with food and accommodation, structure, teaching instruction, and and an environment in which serious meditation can occur. Courses continue to run across the world, and people continue to encounter a practice that changes their lives, no matter where or by whom it's administrated. And so, from this perspective, Goenka created a system that has remained functional across several decades and many different cultures. So it can be said that this system, it created conditions in which Friedgaard could continue doing the practice practice she had come to consider central to her life from her first encounter of meeting Seattle at 17 years old, as she describes in the first episode of this series. Interestingly, the teacher did not reject historical or institutional criticism. On the contrary, they encourage practitioners to open up to the stories that Freed Guard and other firsthand accounts provide and to move beyond a single organizational narrative by speaking with teachers, peers, scholars, historians, and gathering as many perspectives as possible. Their caution concerned the manner in which the criticism is pursued. Here, the teacher urged people to remain attentive to their own reactions and to avoid reducing complicated historical decisions to simple judgments of right and wrong, and to approach disagreement transparently rather than merely trying to to win. Critical thinking, in this view, should remain respectful and collaborative rather than competitive. While that perspective is inclusive and sensible, it nevertheless does require a real world counterweight. Across earlier conversations on this platform, meditators guests who have come on they have described having substantive concerns dismissed as negativity, resentment, or evidence of some personal or even psychological logical deficiency. Such responses shift attention away from the issue being raised and onto the character or internal condition of the person raising it. In other words, I believe that respect cannot become another demand for silence, and gratitude cannot make an institution immune from scrutiny. In my mind, responsibility therefore runs in both directions. Critics should consider how they hold and express their concerns. Definitely. Teachers and organizations, on the other hand, must also be capable of hearing these concerns without pathologizing the people who voice them. It was here that the senior teacher heard Friedgaard modeling another possibility. She rejected rigid lineage absolutism while continuing to affirm discipline. She valued the role of a teacher and maintained devotion to practice and kept Sheila, Samadhi, and Panya at the center of her spiritual life until her last breath. She expressed gratitude towards Goenka without accepting every historical or institutional claim made around him. These are the perspectives I don't want to see lost. These perspectives I'm sharing here of the conversation with the senior teacher that we're not able to air. As I mentioned above, I agree with some of what was said, but I remain unconvinced by other parts and were there still an opportunity for a follow up discussion, I would have wanted to explore those parts much further and see where we landed. But in the end, listeners can consider both my arguments and those of the senior teacher equally and take from them whatever you find useful. This is what an open conversation should allow. Thank you for joining us for this meaningful conversation. At Insight Myanmar Podcast, we aim to create a space that embodies the quality of generosity, or dana, as it is known in Pali, the language of the Buddha, Dana refers to the practice of giving freely with a heart of compassion. On our side, we offer these podcast conversations without any barrier or paywall, modeling our work on the Buddhist principle that compassionate giving benefits both the giver and the one who receives the gift. But while these conversations are and will continue to be offered freely, there are nonetheless costs associated with the production. So if you found these conversations of value, we invite you to consider supporting our work. Visit insight myanmar.org donation to learn more about how you can contribute today. Thank you for your generosity, your volition and your attention. Ram.

[Friedgard Loadermoser]

Harm.