The Hidden Flock

Summary

Insight Myanmar Podcast – “The Hidden Flock”

Date: July 23, 2026
Host: Insight Myanmar Podcast
Guest: Reverend Peter Saiful

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Episode Overview

This powerful conversation features Reverend Peter Saiful, a Rohingya Christian leader living in Bangladesh’s refugee camps, exploring the rarely discussed plight of the Christian minority among the Rohingya – a minority within a minority. The episode provides a first-hand account of religious persecution, communal violence, displacement, and the hopes and deep resilience of Rohingya Christians. Reverend Saiful describes the complex interplay between faith, identity, survival, and inter-communal dynamics in both Myanmar and refugee camps in Bangladesh, all set against the backdrop of ongoing regional conflict and statelessness.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal and Community Background

• Reverend Peter Saiful’s Story:
  • Born in a refugee camp; family fled Myanmar in 1992 due to escalating violence ([02:53]).
  • Pastor at the Rohingya Christian Fellowship and human rights defender.
  • “I was born in the refuse camp ... My family forced to play Bangladesh in 1992. I've been living ... as a refugee in Niapara” ([02:53]).

2. Rohingya Christians: History, Identity, and Survival

• Hidden Identities:
  • Before 1992, Rohingya Christians concealed their faith, fearing retribution from both the broader Buddhist society and radical elements within the Rohingya community ([04:00]).
  • Christians pretended to be Sufi or “Bandari,” participating in local traditions to disguise their beliefs ([04:00]).
  • “Our identity was likely hidden because of threat ... we have to worship hideously even in Myanmar to our village” ([04:00]).
• Demographics:
  • Approx. 3,000 Rohingya Christians currently in Bangladesh, possibly more hidden ([07:30]).
  • Out of 1.3-1.5 million Rohingya in Bangladesh ([08:38]).
• Ancient Roots:
  • Claims that Christianity existed among Rohingya long ago, predating widespread Islamization, but remained secret due to persecution ([09:16]).

3. Religious Coexistence and Persecution

• Pretending for Survival:
  • Rohingya Christians often pass as Muslims, attending mosques or Islamic events for safety ([10:59]).
  • Discovery can lead to abduction, violence, ransom, and torture ([12:48]).
• Rumors and Distrust:
  • Widespread rumor among Muslim Rohingya that conversions to Christianity are for material gain; often used as justification for attacks ([13:29]).
• Rise of Extremism:
  • Wahhabism increasingly influential, with a minority of radical armed groups targeting Christians and sowing disunity ([15:40]).

4. Extreme Risks and Violence

• Minority Under Attack:
  • “Only 10 to 15 people ... have been controlling the area ... abducting, killing people ... recruiting armed groups” ([17:09]).
  • Majority of Rohingya Muslims are themselves in fear and do not support the violence ([19:35]).
• Gang Influence and Security Concerns:
  • Radical groups have disproportionate power through organized violence and weaponry ([19:35]).

5. Camp Administration and False Promises

• No Safe Separate Camp:
  • Despite promises by authorities, there is no distinct Christian Rohingya camp for safety ([21:49]).
  • Attempts to create separation have sometimes increased targeting and isolation for Christian families ([21:49]).

6. Details of Violence Against Rohingya Christians

• Repeated Attacks:
  • Attacks before and after 2020, including arson, mob violence, vandalism, and sexual assault ([27:46]).
  • 2020: “400 youth ... set fire, vandalized ... 25 Christian families’ shelters burned, 7 women abused, 12 Christians injured” ([27:46]).
  • Religious leaders and family members have been killed; minors forcibly converted and married to armed group members ([27:46]).

7. Systemic Difficulties and Discrimination

• No Access to Care:
  • Barriers for refugees in accessing hospitals and fair services regardless of religion ([36:39]).
  • “When you are a refugee ... they say though refusee cannot do anything ... We left them behind” ([36:39]).
  • Severe resource shortages, with food and medical aid cuts ([38:53]).
• Wider Prejudice:
  • Broad social bias against Rohingya and especially against Christians, sometimes exacerbated by false accusations from block leaders and others ([36:39]).

8. No Realistic Path to Repatriation

• Return to Myanmar is Not Safe:
  • Rev. Saiful sees no prospect for Rohingya return due to ongoing civil war, continued violence, and manipulation by all armed factions ([41:22]).
  • “I cannot see ... that within five or ten years ... we will be able to go back to Myanmar” ([41:22]).
• Strong Connection to Myanmar:
  • Despite grave suffering, Rohingya Christians retain a deep identification with Myanmar and hope for genuine citizenship and return ([45:46]).
  • “We belong to Myanmar. We are part of Myanmar ... Our citizenship should be restored” ([45:46]).

9. Conditions for Safe Return

• Guarantees Needed:
  • Calls for international monitoring, guarantees of equality and movement rights, religious freedom, and human rights protections ([48:08], [49:04]).
  • Does not endorse a separate Rohingya state, emphasizing equal citizenship within Myanmar ([52:01]).

10. Community Relations and Interfaith Harmony

• Most Muslims Not Aggressive:
  • Most Rohingya Muslims are constrained by fear of armed groups, not motivated by hostility ([52:41]).
• Efforts at Reconciliation:
  • Saiful actively works to promote peace, educate both Christians and Muslims, and spread unity via social media and community schools ([53:28]).
  • “We are like a boat in the middle of the sea ... the boat is about to sink. So now we need to protect each other” ([53:28]).

11. Living with Constant Threat

• Personal Risk:
  • Two assassination attempts; constant fear from hitlists and armed groups ([59:30]).
  • “If they find me alone ... anytime they can kill me. So we have to be a lot always ... in a fear always inside of being killed. But we are not stopping” ([59:30]).

12. Call for Support and Solidarity

• Final Appeal:
  • Heartfelt gratitude to Bangladeshis and international donors.
  • Plea to continue supporting the Rohingya community until return is possible:
    • “Please don't forget the Rohingya community, please extend your helping hand ... until we return to ... our motherland” ([61:50]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Our identity was likely hidden because of threat ... we have to worship hideously.”
  – Reverend Saiful ([04:00])

• "If you live in a separate camp, more troubles will come ... But in 2020 ... because we refused to go, we have been attacked."
  – Reverend Saiful ([21:49])

• "Only 10 to 15 people ... have been controlling the area ... abducting, killing people."
  – Reverend Saiful ([17:09])

• "We are like a boat in the middle of the sea ... now we need to protect each other."
  – Reverend Saiful ([53:28])

• "I cannot see ... that within five or ten years ... we will be able to go back to Myanmar."
  – Reverend Saiful ([41:22])

• "We belong to Myanmar. We are part of Myanmar ... Our citizenship should be restored."
  – Reverend Saiful ([45:46])

• "Anytime they can kill me. So we have to be a lot always ... in a fear always inside of being killed. But we are not stopping."
  – Reverend Saiful ([59:30])

• “Please don’t forget the Rohingya community, please extend your helping hand…until we return to…our motherland.”
  – Reverend Saiful ([61:50])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:53 | Reverend Saiful’s personal background and early life | | 04:00 | Hidden Christian identity among Rohingya before 1992 | | 07:30 | Size and demographics of Rohingya Christians | | 10:59 | Pretending to be Muslim for survival in camps | | 12:48 | Discovery and violent consequences | | 13:29 | The rumor of “conversion for money” | | 15:40 | Wahhabism and religious extremism in the camps | | 17:09 | Minority armed groups control camps through violence | | 21:49 | The myth and reality of Christian-only camps | | 27:46 | Detailed account of 2020 mob attack on Rohingya Christians | | 36:39 | Healthcare discrimination and hospital access issues | | 41:22 | The question of repatriation to Myanmar | | 45:46 | Identity, belonging, and hope as Myanmar citizens | | 48:08 | Conditions needed for safe return and citizenship guarantees | | 53:28 | Interfaith relations and promoting education, unity, and peace | | 59:30 | Threats to Reverend Saiful; perseverance despite constant danger | | 61:50 | Final appeal for solidarity and support |

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Tone & Overall Message

This episode blends deep sorrow, courage, clarity, and hope. Reverend Saiful speaks with candor and emotion, giving voice to experiences of trauma, discrimination, and daily survival. Yet his message is also one of hope for unity, the necessity of interfaith solidarity, and a continued belief in peace and equal rights for all Rohingya, regardless of faith. The conversation is urgent, honest, and a rare window into a community almost entirely invisible to the world.

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For listeners seeking a true understanding of the Rohingya’s layered struggles – not just as Muslims persecuted in Myanmar, but also as minorities within that group, facing compounded marginalization – this episode is essential, urgent listening.

Transcript

[A]

I would like to caution listeners that the upcoming interview touches upon various topics that some may find upsetting. In an effort to tell the real story of what's now happening in Myanmar, we encourage our guests to share as they feel comfortable doing, affirming that this platform is one that could bear the weight of their story. As traumatic as the events have obviously been for a guest, they can affect even those of us listening from a distance as well. I'll be honest, every member of our team has shed a tear at some point or another in the process of bringing these interviews to you. And similarly, you might find yourself affected by this story. If you feel that some of this content may be upsetting in what follows, maybe consider listening in stages or whatever works for you. But please listen. Please bear witness to what this guest has to say.

[B]

Sam Sa.

[C]

My guest today is the Reverend Peter Saiful, and the topic that we will be discussing is one that I don't think any of our guests have touched on. On this program, we will be looking at the plight of the Rohingya people, but most specifically, specifically the plight of Christian Rohingya people who are a minority within a minority. And the good Reverend has unfortunately experienced many of the negative effects of this reality. So Reverend, thank you very, very much for joining us and for sharing your wisdom and for sharing your experiences with the audience. I'm sure many in the audience are not familiar with you. If you could share a little bit about who you are and your background, we would appreciate that.

[B]

Thank you sir, for having me and giving me a chance to share the situation of myself and my community here in Bangladesh. My name is Peter Saipul. I'm originally from Myanmar, living in Bangladesh. I was born in the refuse camp as well as in 19. Yeah. My family forced to play Bangladesh in 1992. I've been living in the refusal game as a refusee in Niapara. So currently I am serving as a pastor at the Rohingya Christian Fellowship, Pathenshaw's Rohingya Christian Fellowship. And beside this, I am a human right defender and serving as a representative of the Rohingya Christian community living in Bangladesh camps.

[C]

So there's so much that I want to unpack and so much that I want to understand. But I think we should start with before 1992. You say that you and your family were forced to flee and go to the refugee camp in 1992. Can you tell us what it was like living as a Christian within the rohingya community before 1992?

[B]

Yeah. So what I know that My father, the Christian communities actually they never been able to express their identity because we have believed it all together. You know, among us there have been radical group among the Rohingya since beginning. We have heard about the Furikyasoka unarmed group like an extremist group. So before 1992 we have been living in Myanmar. My family's. My father have been living in Myanmar. And when they've been living here they are in Myanmar. No we have been Rohingya. We did not have a separate camp. We didn't have a separate area for the Christians. So we have been living in mix altogether Muslim and Christians. And our identity was likely hidden because of threat because of the. Yeah. So we have been. My families the Christian families have been pretending to be as a Supi. You know those who are like folk they play music. We call them Bandari in our. In our local language. In our language. So we believe in there as a Bhandari pretending to be hidden Christians. And there are also some Christian Just recently It is after 2020 in Putidang there are some Christian has been visible in Butidong. But they were tortured by the. Some of our Rohingya brothers because of the. Because they exposed their identity being a Christians. So and also the. In every decades in Myanmar among us there there were some fanatics group. There are some fanatics group that. That they they act that they are trying there they are for faith based group. And they call. They are known as a furqya. The Furiqya they persecute the everyone both Christian and Muslim. So they are kind of fanatics or armed groups or they try to control the Rohingya using the name of religion. So back in Myanmar our identity was kind of hidden. And also after coming back in Bangladesh we were forcing. So we became visible in the camps and yeah but our identity. The family sends us paper family census or Gossaram. We say so in the identity. In that identity we are approved by the government Myanmar government as a Christian. So even though we have identity written identity paper as Christians but because of our family our. Because of the threat because of the security concern we were not able to express ourselves. We have to worship hideously even in the in Myanmar to our village. I'm originally from place called Bolivazar. It is under the Mondo district. So we were hidden. That's. I remember that we have to. We were worshipping in a. There is likely a home church in our home. So we gather on Sunday for the worship.

[C]

And so because it's hidden I assume it would Be difficult to know this but do we have any estimates for how big the Rohingya Christian population is?

[B]

Yeah. Currently here in Bangladesh so far I know there's still some Rohingya still remaining in Myanmar. But currently here In Bangladesh around 3000 Christian individuals. Systematically so far I know according to my ndb, my survey. So. And also there are some hidden Christians maybe some hidden Christian that maybe I don't know as we have come to know this Christmas, last Christmas that some Christian who have been hidden they were away from the. Because of the explit. Because of the influx in 2027. They were away from the community. They were not able to reconnect with their families. So since they've been living in. In a remote area, you know there camps in the 27 and 28 camp now in Bangladeshi camp. So estimatedly I would I know that 3,3000 individual Christian families here in Bangladesh now. So maybe there are some more in Myanmar left there.

[C]

Okay. But as I understand the the population of Rohingya currently in Bangladesh is. Is 1.5 million. Is that correct?

[B]

Yes, that is. There's. There's that. Yeah. Yeah. According to the unis year it is like 1.3 million. So there are some more few thousands that unlisted or unregistered yet. Yeah.

[C]

Okay. This is good to understand for context and from a historical perspective. I'm curious to know. Do you know anything about the history of Rohingya Christians? How long have there been Rohingya Christians? Is this before the Islamization of the Rohingya or did this come later? What is the time period to your knowledge?

[B]

Yeah, what I heard that they have been Christians but it was. They have been totally hidden. They never exposed their identity. Long ago, long ago before maybe Islam is Islam. Islamism. They have been Christian in Myanmar, Christianity among the Rohingya. But because of threat, because of the problems, because of the security concern, they never exposed themselves. Even though some Christian here in the refuse camp now they are going to mos that pretended to be Muslim. There is a big this is happening. This is because of the security concern since they are not all the Christian are not in one camp. Even though the ex government who are Bangladesh those who not on rolling they said that we have a separate camp. But the reality is there is no separate camp. Those. As a result all the Christians are escalated in many camps. So they are not able to practice their faith openly. They have to pretend to be Muslim. They have to pretend. They have to hide their identity. So also in Myanmar they have to hide their Identity because of security issues. So far I know this is what I heard, that they are big Christian, but they were totally hidden.

[C]

Okay. I mean, that's very interesting to understand. I mean, we've seen very similar things in. In European history as well. When people have to hide their religion. I do wonder, is it possible to pretend to be Muslim? Do Rohingya Christians understand enough from their community, from the Muslims around them to be able to pretend to be Muslim? Or is this a very dangerous risk that they are taking?

[B]

They are pretending to be Muslim. The Christian are pretending to be Muslim because of they. Since they are alone our family around. Around our family. In a block, you know, a camp is separated in 10 to 7 to 10 blocks where in each block there are few thousand individual leaves. So since, for example, in one camp there are several blocks, in one block there is a family and 99.99% almost Muslim. So because of. They cannot express. They cannot say I am a Christian because of the surrounded their neighbors are Muslim and the Muslim when. When they heard the other Muslim heart that there is Christian, they know that there is a. Rumors spread all over the camp that some Rohingya Muslim converted into Christianity because in. Because of facilities, because of money. But this is not true. This is not true. As a result, we lost. We have faced several attacks. We will come there. So since the several attacks happened, several attacks led by the fanatics group, the faith based fanatics group, they attack. So because of this threat, because of life at the sick risk. So the families cannot say I am a Christian. They have to pretend to be Muslim and they have to go to the mosque. They have to go to Tabligh just to. Just because of their life at the risk. But occasionally he. Daily they come to the church. They come to the Christmas, they come to the gathering occasionally, of course, but.

[C]

So my previous question is, do the Muslims ever discover that a Christian is pretending to be Muslim?

[B]

Yes, yes, yes. There are several histories that some people discovered that she was a Christian and she was abducted, beaten, tortured and taken ransom. And then the family was. Later we were even with the help of the government, with the help of the camel treaties, we were able to relocate him in different camps.

[C]

Wow. I mean, so this is. So this is a terrible situation. And I want to understand how this happened. So first of all, you said that the Muslims had a rumor that you convert to Christianity for money. Why would they believe this?

[B]

So because of the. They believe that Rohingya is a nation with Sufism. Now Wahhabi, you know, in Islam there Are two, three different groups. So Wahhabi is likely. They claim that they are pure Islam. And they claim that the most of the Rohingya. They've been claiming that the Rohingya nation is a nation of like, there is no Hindu, there is no Christian, there is no atheist. There's nothing. No Sufism. So. But according to my experience, according to. I know that there are some Hindu, there are some even atheists in the Rohingya community. And there are Christians, for example. I am a Christian. And there are Sufism. There are those who. Bandari, we call a lot of boundaries. But I know that they have been. Even they have been attacked. The boundary has been attacked by the other Rohingya. This is what I experienced. I have seen. I am an eyewitness. And this is why some other. Some groups, fanatics group. They said we are working to protect Islam. We are working. But in the name of. They are using the name of this religion and they are creating complete division among the Rohingya, disunity among the Rohingya. As a result, they spread the rumors that these people are living Islam. They win religion in search of facilities or money. That's why we cannot even say that we are Christians. Most of the people cannot say that we are Christian. Even though they will be abducted. They will be. They think, no, he has a lot of money. If we kidnap him, we may get a lot of money. This is happening in the camps now.

[C]

I see. And so this is fascinating to me that you mentioned Wahhabism. And for those in the audience who might not be familiar, Wahhab was an Islamic scholar. Wahhabism is the variety of Islam that rose to prominence in Saudi Arabia. So are you saying that Wahhabism is. Is very common in Rohingya Muslims?

[B]

Yeah, they say 100% are Wahhabi among the Rohingya, no Christian, no Sufism. But they're lying. They are lying because. I don't know why they are lying, but they're lying. This is. They're lying because we know that in the camera in the Rohingya refusing camp, there are around 500, 500 Rohingya Hindu and Christians, around 3,000, including the new arrivals and new arrivals in 2024 and 2025 and many more maybe on the way. I don't know, because of the current situation in Myanmar. And there are. At this atheist. I know there are feminism, there's some. Some women. I know that they, they. And also in the. In. In a conference like, you know, Dr. Jakir Nayak, he hold a conference about religion and in the conference there is a man who claimed that I am an atheist. I don't follow any religion. Yeah, so there are atheists as well as.

[C]

Yeah. And so what I want to understand then is this culture. Because you said that there were extremists and that there are these really aggressive groups. But I wonder what is the percentage among the Rohingya Muslims? What percentage do you think are aggressive towards Rohingya Christians, are negative to Rohingya Christians and what percentage? Don't care

[B]

what I know what I experienced during my childhood. Morgan is very welcoming nation. Very welcoming, very peaceful nation. So far I understand. I know because my neighbors was very. They've been helpful each other, to each other. They are peaceful, very loving to others. But currently, so we see some. Maybe it is because of outside influence or I don't know. But very few, very few. I cannot say that about the percentage. What I say is a very few people, a very few people are controlling the Rohingya, whole Rohingya because they have access to the weapons that we cannot imagine. And because of very few. For example, in our camp where we live, where we have been living in the camps, Camp 2 East. So we have good relation with every Rohingya Muslim and they love us. But after 2027 influx only in our blocker there are only 10 to 15 people individuals. They become as a group and that they have been controlling. They have been controlling, they've been trying to control. They have been abducting, they have been killing people. So very few people. In my blog there have been likely more than 1 10,000 people in our camp. In one camp. So only 15, 10 to 15 people have been controlling the area. And they've been recruiting the groups. They have been recruiting you, they have been forcing you to join their armed groups. So the percentage is very low. Very few people are controlling the other Rohingya. Peaceful Rohingya as a result, because of threat, because of their security concern, because of the. If they move outside. So they may be okay. They say okay, let it go. We may not. We may fall in trap if we go against these people. Since they have access, they have access to weapons, they have access, they have power. But the truth is very few, very few.

[C]

So. Okay, but. But these, these groups, it sounds like they are quite powerful. So would you say that the majority of the Rohingya are afraid of these groups? Or are these groups so small that. Oh really? So they are afraid?

[B]

Yeah, the majority Rohingya are afraid of this group. As a result, they cannot speak out against this Group against the armed groups against the powerful group. This is the problem.

[C]

Okay. Okay. So is there anything that can be done? I know for the security situation we're not going to name any specific group but is there anything that can be done? If these groups are small, is it not possible for the other Rohingya to unite to push these groups out of power?

[B]

Yeah, this is now compared to the last year, I mean 20 before comparing to the change in the situation of political situation here in Bangladesh. And that situation is now more improved in the camps the security concern. Because why? Because the Rohingya understand that we need unity. We need to speak out against injustice, against this. Those who are killing, those who are abducting, those who are creating conflicts inside the camp, fire in the camp, setting fire to the camps. So comparing to that other 2021, 2022, 2023. So. So now in 2025 and 20, the 25th. So it is likely improving the situation, security situation. As government is taking take the issue very seriously and the situation is improving. The camp situation is improving and unity is. It is Rohingya is being united with these issues because they said we need to speak out.

[C]

Okay, well that's a very good thing to hear. And I want to go back to what you said. So the idea, if I understood correctly the idea was that there would be a separate camp just for the Christian Rohingya. And you said that this has not been done. Is there any particular reason why this has not been done? And do you think it is possible in the future to establish a Christian Rohingya camp for safety?

[B]

Yeah. Thank you for this concern. Just to highlight about what the government of Bangladesh says during the influx the four year ministry they said that we have camp separated. During the interview by the Indian media when they have been talking they questioned the media question that whether about the camp separate camp for the Hindu and Hindu and. And the ministry, the min. Foreign Ministry said that we have camp for a separate camp for Hindu and Christians and Muslim. I don't know why he spoke why he mentioned that. But in the. I have the video. I can. I can send it maybe later. But he said that we have scam separate and now this did not happen. And that time in 2021, 2020, 19 and 2020. Some of the CAM authorities they have been requesting us to for a separate. Even though they have been requesting to go in a separate camp. And but because of. We thought that if we go to the separate. We go in a separate camp. We will be. Maybe we mess up. We may get more. More troubles, more attacks from the groups. But we. So we refuse to go back. As a result, we have been attacked by the groups and two. Two Christian has been killed. And after that in 202020 20-01-27, the massive health attack happened towards my sh. And two, two, two two men including a Pastor Taher has been killed and a minor daughter was converted. And we have been relocated to a place called transit center lead by the UN UNHCR. And they now this year, last year December, we have meeting with them with the UniCR team and they said we have to go back to the camp. So we said if they can ensure the protection, if they can make a separate camp and bring in all the Christians together in a separate camp and give access like education, church, the church they're building facilities for omen. And if they are ensuring all this, then we said that we will go back. We are ready to go back, but there is no hope. They said if you live together, if you live in a separate camp, more troubles will come. But in 2020 we experienced that because we refused to go in a separate camp. We have been attacked. And Muslim majority Muslim they demonstrate against us that we don't want this Christian in the amount with the Muslim because they said that the Christian are making Muslim into Christianity. The rumors. Wow. So. So. So there is no. There is uncertainty about separate camp. But they are. They've been pushing the Ionesia stuff. There is an appeal officer, maybe I don't know his full name, he was likely up there, I forget the name. So he said that and also other protection officer was there at the meeting and they said that okay, you have to go back to the camp. Even though we are in the. In the transit center with the protection was about six years. And because of this discrimination, because of the discrimination and false information provided by some fanatics group, the Krishna has been left behind in the transit center and other Muslims they get very, very short result as a resolution as a recycle man within three, four months. Three or four months. But the Christian left behind for six years. After six years, they are now pushing us to go in a separate camp as in the. In the camp that we come back, we were kicked out. So as a result we requested for the separate camp, but there is no assurance. There is. They said we have to go back to your own camp.

[C]

I mean, this is. This is crazy to hear who. Who is actually in charge of. Of the camps and who is in charge of the decisions for which camp a person can Go to.

[B]

Yeah. For example, you have been living in Camp 2 East which is in Kutapalong. Since we come from Myanmar for the second time in 2007, we have been living in Kutapalong now known as M2 East. And from that camp we have been relocated to the transit center which is next to the Camp seven. And that the. The in terms of the CAM is triple RRC who is in the. In Cox's buzzer. But each camp has a separate assistant CIC which is CAM Insurance. But the triple RC Rohingya Refuse Repartation Commissioner. He lives in he. His office is in Costasbazar. He lead all the other in common chairs. So mainly the chem insures are the decision maker with the coordination of UNHCR site management and other NGOs. NGOs and INGOs. But UNHCR has the separate. They have the power. They have the capacity to make decision as well as those who are faced with the protection issues. Bangladesh government, with the help of Bangladesh government. I mean the local authorities. So in this year and local authorities together take the decision.

[C]

Okay, so it's quite a complicated situation, but you're certainly suffering very much. And I wonder if you can go into a little bit more detail. You mentioned 2020. You mentioned that your community was attacked, your church was attacked. And unfortunately some of your brethren lost their. Lost their lives. I wonder if you can explain a little bit more about what happened exactly in that 2020 attack.

[B]

Yeah, the 2020 attack is not the fast attack. Before that we have been. Our people has been arrested randomly in the middle of the night. Some of the. Because of the misinformation given to the. To the police or to the officers. And they came in middle of the night. In 2014, some school teacher who has been. Who is our. Who is late now, the pastor who has been killed now killed. He was arrested. My father has been arrested with the false accused as an illegal immigrant. He was sent to the prison. And then. Yeah. And again in 2017, during the service, a lot of justice happened. A lot of people came from to our block and attack us. After the service on Sunday. It was in May. It was in May, in 2017 and again in 2018, we have faced attacks. Our children. Our children were sniped because of the just. Our children receive every day. Mockery, false accusation. Your people, your father you converted to Christianity money. They've been abusing because of hatred. So in 2019, in December, during the celebration, we have been celebrating the Christmas. You have a cultural program as well as Beside the worship service. So we gather all the Christian gathering in the church in Camp 2 East and some fanatics group they drown the human dust to the. To the. To all the pastor house and the church member house in Camp 2 we east and we called to the police. They. They tried to attend and the police went there and they. All the sheriff's pastor's house was rubbed away. All the belonging had been taken away by the groups and we had complained. And in 2020, 2020 January probably it was the. It was the. You know Ms. Yangili, the UN special reporter. She was. Her entry was denied in Myanmar so she came back. She. We have been reporting all these sufferings all the years that we received we have been passing to the UN agency including the unhcr, all of the human rights organization and as a result especially put also was aware of the situation and she came back. She came to visit and heard our stories the Christian stories. She visited our church in 2020 January. I think probably the 2020 January 20222022 January she visited us and she highlighted the situation during her press conference in Dhaka. So after her visit on 26th the move the alert of Bruhanga around 400 estimatedly what I have seen 400, more than 400 youth they come together and they've been starting. They set fire. They have been cutting down and taken all our properties church properties have been vandalized. Our charge computers device, my university certificate, all our school college certificates have been taken away burned down all our documents and everything. 25 Christian families shelters were burned down, cut down and 7 women were abused and 12 Christians were injured including myself. We have been taken away from our camps to a CIC office which is camping office. And then the next day I was taken. Those remaining Rohingya Christians they have been in the office and even in the office the Muslims, the Rohingya they actually been stoning them to the office towards the office. It was early morning and it was winter. The season was winter so it was cool. And my son was only one month. I have been the NGOs people has been taken in MSF hospital, UK hospital and some of them Cox House. BUZZER AND COX BUZZER as you know when you are. When you are Rohingya the local hospital don't care about them so we have been taken there. I was senseless when I was taken to the UPIA of hospital. Then the hospital said we cannot, we can. We have no treatment for Peter or other families here so their condition is very serious. You have to take so the Upesala Hospital refer us to Cox's Blazar City Hospital, Coxbaza Chadhar Hospital. And since our situation was worse and we were taken to the Malangat Christian Hospital, we have received treatment there. And then on the 26th, 27th January morning, we have been taken to the transit center because of the protection issues by the UNICR and the UNICR and the local block came authorities. So after that we have reported about the Christian the abduction. The pastor Taher and his daughter was abducted in the mid of the night. It was likely morning time, early morning. And also another church member, his name is Kadero Sen. Because of. Because of his. Probably he was a barber. So he was. He just to pretend after their attacks he went to the mosque, as I heard. So he was taken away from. He was taken away from the. From the. From the. From the nearby the Mocks. And he was killed. And the Tahir was killed. And the daughter, the minor daughter, who. Her name is Mizan. She was married away. A minor daughter. She was only 14. She was 14 years old. She was married with an ARSA member commander armed group Commander. He was married away and we were never able to speak with her. But now we are hearing that she divorced. She was able to flee away from the. From the commander now living in a remote, remote place for her security concern, which is. I just heard, I was not able to speak with her.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So she's living in. Far away from. From the camps. This is what I heard. So the situation, the current situation is still origin and recently of a Christian from Camp 27. He was abducted by the. It was not from. Maybe not related to camp, but you know, abduction happened every day in. In Tecnab camp. So he was abducted and he was said that your people, your godfather has a lot of money. So give him, tell him to give money. So after a ransom, he was free at the middle of the night. This is what happened in the Christians. We are for myself the Christians. Those who are in the transit center, they are not able to move. They are not able to go inside the camps. They are not able to meet their relatives by going to the camps. As a result, we are restricted. We are confined in a restricted area about six years and the future is uncertain. We don't know what's going to happen. As the UNHCR said that they don't have money to support, to feed. And now we are four days. Now we are without food. No ration, no food. They are supposed to provide food here in the transit Center. But they said we cannot provide any food. The transit center will vandalize, we will break the transit center will be. Yeah, we are no more supporting the transit center. As a result they did not provide any food, any ration. They said we have to go to. We have to go to the middle of the camp to receive the man to receive the ration. So because of our protection issue the Christians and some more Muslims they were not able to go to the inside the camp. He said they came received the ration from WFP and Case LPG case.

[C]

And I'm trying to understand why this is. Is there a prejudice against refugees? Is there a prejudice against Rohingya? Is there a prejudice against Christians? What is the reason for this?

[B]

Yeah, specifically with some of the armed groups. You know, in the. In Bangladesh in refusing camp there have been a lot of armed groups among the Rohingya. When the many people try to use misuse the Rohingya since they don't have job, they don't have access to the money or resources. So they are in desperate. We are in desperate. So anyone try to control. Anyone try to misuse the Rohingya for their own benefits. So. And as a result there have been some several groups among in the Rohingya camps. But and also the detective they have the information about the camp. And when the those detective came to charge the bad people criminal gang some those gang. The block leaders they redirect from gang to Christian. They accused the Christian as a gang as a criminal. So as a result police has a bad experience. So this may be the people. That's why. And at the same time we cannot do what we want. So. But after the verification justification the police or the detective found nothing. But still the police everyone the rumors spread it and they think oh, these people may be dead people. That so we should not take care of these people. And about the hospital in general, when you are a Rohingya it is not about Christian, it is not about Muslim, it is not about Hindu in general. And when you are a Christian, you are a refugee. They say though refusee cannot do anything. They don't know the system, they don't know the rule. So we left them behind. Priorities. Those okay. Those who are educated, those who are fresh like well clothed. Yeah. This is how they take care that most of the hospital treat behaviors towards the refugees.

[C]

So I mean this is terrible. Is there an alternative? I know you were talking about the Christian hospital. Are there specific places that refugees are able to go to receive proper medical care?

[B]

No, no, no. My I Am the eyewitness. I have experienced a lot and I saw that because of the. I called at our delivery time a pregnant woman. Her delivery time it is, it was delivery time and they called to the hospital ambulance. Ambulance declined and the child died even in the transit center. It is, it is maybe 2023 at home and delivery time. Say it was delivery time. It was mid of the night. We called to the ambulance. In the transit center there is a basic treatment hospital but not for the delivery. And it was. The woman covered the area and the baby was born. But unfortunately, because of the lack of caring, lack of treatment, lack of the child died. So he deserved to be to leave. The child deserved to live, but because of treatment the child died. So this is everyday incident for the refugees here in the camp. There is no special care, there is no special hospital for the refugees. And among them in 2025, many clinic hospitals and facilities has been closed. So in the fund card. So in the shortest fund shortage and this year it is huge now in every sector they are showing this region. Fund shortage, Fund shortage.

[C]

Yeah, of course. So I mean this is a very bleak situation that you're talking about. And I know this is not a solution at all. But this is something that we need to discuss, something that we need to understand. And this is the possibility of the Rohingya returning to Myanmar itself. I know that there has been some discussion about this. I know that Bangladesh is very keen for the Rohingya to return. I know the Arakan army have been making some statements saying that they would welcome the Rohingya returning and so on. And the National Unity government also has made these statements. From your perspective, is it realistic for the Rohingya to return to Myanmar either today or in five years from now? Is that a potential solution to any of these problems?

[B]

Yeah, we have been hearing, for example, I am a refusee from 1992. We are known as older Rohingya. But we have been reported in 2003 by the local authority, so around 30, 33,000 older Rohingya who are known as a registered Rohingya have been waiting for the reputation. It is 33 years, 34, five to five or 36 years now. And this did not happen. And the situation of Myanmar is very worse now. There is a civil war ongoing still now. And we've been hearing that the Archan army or the Janta, they both of them are trying to get attention from international by welcoming them. And we know that both of them are using the Rohingya as a human shield. So. And at the same time they are trying to welcome the Rohingya refugee to the country. And this is actually not. I don't think this is actually going to happen because still within 24 and 25th, 25th within two years around 2 or 300,000 Rohingya fleet to Bangladesh. And still every day Rohingya is trying to flee from Myanmar to Bangladesh to escape violence. So this is happening every day the borders and yeah, so we don't. I personally from my opinion, personal opinion I cannot see that we have. There is a way we can return and you know there is. I. We have been reading about the election, ongoing election there. So I don't know how they are making this happen. Even majority of the citizens are denying protesting against Janta. At the same time they said that we are. They are making the election day hold the election. So we cannot see the ways. But we are really hopeful. We are really we the majority Rohingya. The Rohingya went to return home as it is 20 independent day today also Rohingya have been celebrating the Independent day as we are. Since we are part of Rohingya we have the right to celebrate and to like remember the day. But in this day we are away from our country. We have been living in. In another country as a refusing. So we are really hopeful that whether Janta, whether Akan army they should stop. They should like they must ensure citizenship and like restore all our rights. That's been snake taken away and I don't think they will do as soon. So there is no possibility, There is no. We cannot see. I cannot see any that within five or ten years we are, we are, we will be. We really. We will be able to go back to Myanmar.

[C]

Yeah, I mean I understand that but it's. It's fascinating to me the way that you identify with Myanmar because the Rohingya obviously have been persecuted within Rakhine State by the Arakan. And what we saw in 2016, 2017, 2018 was obviously this concentrated deliberate operation on the part of the Tamado, the Burma military to go in and to exterminate the Rohingya and to force the Rohingya off their land. Myanmar as a country has. Has hurt the Rohingya very greatly. And yet you continue to identify with Myanmar. And it sounds to me like a very large percentage of the Rohingya who are living in Bangladesh continue to identify with. With Myanmar. What is your. Your feeling about the country of Myanmar? What is your. Your hope for a future Myanmar with the Rohingya population in it?

[B]

Yeah, we belong To Myanmar. We are part of Myanmar and we are very hopeful that we are likely a football. Now when we are going back to the. When we are in Myanmar they call us Bengali. When we are here in Bangladesh, they call us Burmese or Rohingya or Burmese people. This is true. We belong to Myanmar and Myanmar our government must welcome us. They should not kick us as food. They should not kick us. They should not call us color. We are the same people. We are the same citizen as other. So as. As other people enjoy the freedom or citizenship we there is we. Our citizenship should be restored and all our properties that been taken awareness away should be given and we have been treated as a citizen and we should be given the facilities to contribute to the country, to the economics as a. Yeah. As a good citizen. This is what our Rohingya deserve and I deserve. I hope.

[C]

I mean I completely agree with you. I am curious though and I know that this is outside a little bit of the scope of our discussion, but it is something that I think it's useful if we discuss this. Obviously with these fake elections happening now in Myanmar and also with the statements that the Arakan army has made and the statements the national unity government has made, there's a lot of question about what would be necessary for the Rohingya. Obviously because you have been oppressed and attacked for so long, you would want a guarantee of safety. You would want a guarantee of your legal rights and citizenship. And I'm curious, what do you think would be necessary for the Rohingya people to feel that they can return to Myanmar safely? Would you be happy with a guarantee by the central government in Naypyidaw? Would you require a guarantee by an international observing country or organization that would that would stay in Rakhine State and continue to monitor the situation? What do you think would be enough to guarantee the safety of the Rohingya people?

[B]

Yeah. Thank you. You know, currently there is no the outside country like international media. They cannot cover the situation before. Before the reputation start or before they welcoming us. You know, they should. They should give it access to the those who monitor this security situation. Like like and also the situation about the. They. They should. They should. I'm actually lost about from your question. Please repeat.

[C]

So it's what what would be necessary or what would be enough for you to feel that your safety and your rights are going to be guaranteed and protected?

[B]

Yeah, as I said they should ensure. They should. Whether government or whether Archon army or Janta. They should give an access to the the those who are who Work for the rights Human rights are monitored the human rights. You know the currently the the Rohingya Mazruti what I experience what I am hearing they want a separate estate Rakhine state as a separate estate for Rohingya. I am not agreeing. I am not going to be agree. I'm not going to to echo this this into this agreement into this. But the access to the religious freedom must be ensure and they they. They they should behave same equally equally the Burmese Buddhist or whatever the citizens should be behave equally give access to education higher education movement to the freedom freedom movement. We have we are not given freedom movement freedom. Even we were not able to visit one one village to another village those past years and many investigator mechanism or yeah they are not able to go inside and deep research about the situation or they they restricted where they highlight the situation. For example, you know about the Reuters reporter they have been detained. Two of the reuter reporter has been detained. Why they have been covering the areas or they've been highlighting the persecution or. Yeah, so also I have. I have heard that RTR2Pmust be ensured this majority of the Rohingya have been demanded that R2P has been must be ensured there before we go there so that a UN agency or UN can monitor can they can ensure protection for the Rohingya citizens. But still I don't believe I that even though Atapi is there if the government prosecute, you know this is my home and I am the owner of the home and I will do whatever I want. So even though if there is RTP they cannot but the government must ensure that okay. Welcome as a child the way we welcome our children by the misunderstanding when someone go away. So if they ensure they welcome as a children of the home the country then that is possible that we can live there again. Otherwise it will be like we have been repatriated in 2003 and my family has to come back in 2007. So it will happen we will be treated as a football.

[C]

Yes. Yes, I think that makes a lot of sense and I find it very interesting that your position is that you do not endorse the idea of an independent Rohingya state. And I think that's probably a conversation that in another discussion we can jump into later. But it's certainly very interesting and I completely agree with this. The question that I want to pose though is in the current situation in Bangladesh in these camps, obviously the majority of the Rohingya are Muslims. Like clearly from the numbers that you were giving 99% at least are Muslim.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

And you say that the majority of the Muslim Rohingya are not aggressive towards Christians. They are just afraid of these extremist groups. Is there anything that you think you can do to reach out to them, to try to educate them, to try to build a sense of community? Because even in Islam, in theory, Christians are supposed to be protected. In Islam, they're called ahl al Kitab. And this is not being respected. They are making, as you say, false accusations against the Rohingya. That the Christian Rohingya, that you are getting money, that you are converting the Muslims and all these things. Do you think there is anything that you can do to raise awareness of the Christian Rohingya community safely?

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. This is what we have been seeking for years now. We have been requesting the leaders, the activists that we are Rohingya. First of all, we are Rohingya. Our religious identity is coming in second, second, second time. So first of all, we are Rohingya. We have to be united. And as you said, we are actually. Even though we cannot go directly to our. To the people now because of security issues. But I am actively working for the peace, to restore the peace, to restore the unity among the Rohingya. And the good thing is that there the Rohingya. The Rohingya were 99. 0.99% are being illiterate. No education. There was no education. No access to the digital. Digital materials like Internet. No Internet, no social medias. Now they're both in the social medias. Both there are some bad impact and good impact are happening. For example, in 20. The 2024 December, some Rohingya Islamic scholar like a growing young man he was. He. He has issues against me and my brother Emmanuel and another church leader in Camp 13 to issue the photos to kill us. And they have attested and they have circulated photos with of me, my photo, my brother and another Michael who has been accused with the blasphemy. He was in the jail for seven men. Seven months in he was later he was granted bail on from the high court in Bangladesh. So. And they now the social media spreaded. At the same time NSCR and other agencies they launch a imam meeting. Imam meeting which is to counsel the imams to counsel the. To restore the United. To stop the bullied on Facebook, on social medias, to stop the spreading rumors or false information. And at the same time, I am my youth from the Rohingya Christian community. They are also trying to send message. But both the offline and online that we Rohingya we. Everyone has the religions they rights they have religious is, religion is a basic rights. And anyone can be whether a Christian or Muslim or Hindu or Buddhism or atheist. It is hishar personal right. And the Rohingya as I was mentioning about education there there was no education but now the currently the there are some community school like private school that run by the educated, educated men and women, older people and also some people are in touch with the western people. They are providing education, quality education by the home base or community based. So I can see some improvement, some changes among the Rohingya. Even though there are still a lot of abusive words towards me and my community. But in response we say God love you, we love you. Even though you can mock me, you can abuse me, you can hit me. But my scripture says love your enemies. So we don't mind if you inbox me with a bad word with bad clips. We don't mind. So this is what I teach the growing generation here in my school, in my congregation. And also we are trying to build good relation. Even though they hate us, we love them. We say we love you. We have to be united. We are in a desperate situation. We are like a boat that in middle of the sea. When the boat sank we have no time to waste. Like oh he's a Christian, he's Muslim. We are in that situation. We are in the middle of the sea. The board is sang about to sing. So we now we need to protect each other. So we are trying and we can see a little bit that changes are coming among the community. It is because of education. So the international community must give access to the higher education to the Rohingya so that the chances are come into among the Rohingya community.

[C]

Well I think that's a very, very impassioned statement. I think you paint an optimistic picture that there are these things that can be done, that there are these options that can be taken if only the international community will listen and will take the necessary action. The potential to save lives, very literally the potential to save lives is there as we are coming to towards the conclusion. I also just want to understand a little bit about your current situation. I won't ask you exactly what your situation is and where you are located and how many other Christians are with you. Because I understand the security situation is very serious. But I want to understand how serious and how dangerous would you say life is for you and for other questions. I mean you say this. A fatwa was issued for the audience.

[B]

That's a.

[C]

That's an Islamic ruling that is not binding. Strictly but is binding on the followers of a specific cleric. That could be a very serious security threat to you. Your image was. Was published. People know who you are. They could be targeting you. How. How serious do you consider the risk to yourself and how serious do you consider the risk to your community to be right now?

[B]

Yeah. Here in the transit center. I have been attempted twice to choke me. But I was escaped. And the situation of myself. If any time in anything could happen since I am and my family, my brother, they are targeted. And armed groups are always behind us. Armed groups. Those who are targeted. So you know, they kill in a second. And now the Rohingya, some of the Rohingya fanatics group, they have access very well organized like powerful weapons. They have access since they are. Yeah. So anytime anything can happen. So if they find me alone, they find me in a. Yeah. In. In camps or in nearby. They can. They can. Anytime they can be, they can kill me. So we have to stay away from. We have to be a lot always in. In a situation like desperate situation in a fear always inside of being killed. But we are not stopping. We are not stopping here. Serving. We will keep serving. We will fight for the rights for the Rohingya Christian community. Since no one is speaking about this community. They are lost. So I am calling everyone to work for the peace. Work to restore the peace, to spread the peace message. Regardless of our religion, regardless our religious identity, we are Rohingya. We must protect our Rohingya community. We must protect human being. We must work for the human being, for the peace.

[C]

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think without. We've covered quite, quite a lot of territory. And I think we are helping to bring awareness to this very serious issue that might not be familiar to much of our audience. Of course, when we think of the Rohingya, we think of the Rohingya as a Muslim minority or group within Myanmar who are persecuted. But we have to recognize that within the Rohingya community there are non Muslims who are themselves minorities again and being persecuted. And so I am deeply grateful Reverend for you coming in and sharing your experiences. As dangerous as the security situation is for you and for your people, we are grateful to be able to raise awareness.

[B]

Thank you so much. What I want to say is we are Rohingya. We are living in another country. Bangladesh is already a overpopulated country. We are very grateful to the people of Bangladesh and we. The Rohingya relies on your donation. So since we don't have access to. We don't have access to the workplace or earning money to support our family. So we rely on you on your donation. So please don't forget the Rohingya community, please extend your helping hand. I request you to stand in solidarity and speak out about the Rohingya rights to restore and until we return to the to our motherland, please not stop your support for our people so that we, we can build our future. We can build, we can help our children to build their future so that they can be. They can contribute to the society. This is what my message is. Thank you for having me. Once again,

[A]

What a great conversation that was. You know, every so often, listeners share with me how deeply they've connected with a guest they heard on our podcast. Sometimes they've shared being so profoundly touched by what they've heard. They tell me they just wanted to reach out and hug the speaker when the episode ended. Hearing this kind of feedback, it's always real motivation for me and for our whole team because it shows that even in this virtual space, we've been able to foster true heart to heart connection with this global community of listeners. Indeed, many of our guests have made extraordinary personal sacrifices in their efforts to create a better future for their society and continue to do so every day despite the many challenges they face. And so, if you've been touched in this way yourself from hearing a past episode, you might consider supporting the work of one of our guests directly. Such contributions not only provide material help, they also send a powerful message of solidarity and of shared humanity. To get involved, send us a message with your intention. Of course. You can always make a general donation@insight Myanmar.org donation.

[B]

Foreign.