The Missing Self

Summary

Insight Myanmar Podcast – "The Missing Self"
Released: July 30, 2026
Host: Joe (A) | Guest: Prof. Pildar (B)

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Episode Overview

In this probing and candid conversation, the Insight Myanmar Podcast dives into the spiritual transformations of India and Myanmar, centering on the Buddhist and meditation movements as seen through the eyes of Professor Pildar. With over 50 years on both the academic and spiritual path, including deep involvement with the Vipassana movement as taught by S.N. Goenka, Prof. Pildar reflects on his journey, the shifting currents of spiritual authority, and the search for authentic liberation. He opens up about cultural, organizational, and personal crossroads—shaped by tragedy, rigorous practice, and deep inquiry into spiritual traditions and their limitations.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Spiritual Foundations and Early Influences

Timestamps: [03:12] – [11:24]

• Prof. Pildar introduces himself as a 77-year-old mechanical engineering professor whose spiritual search began in 1975.
• Early years shaped by the study of Vedantic masters, particularly Swami Vivekananda, Ramakrishna Mission, and a close connection with Swami Sanatan Sri from Lucknow—who emphasized Vedic ritual, deep study of scripture, and a belief in the atman (self).
• Personal challenges, including family health issues, provided both tests and support for spiritual resilience grounded in karma and self-awareness.

Quote:
"I tried to do that. But that kind of practice somehow didn't match with my temperament, I could say. But certainly his Intellectual aspects was very profound." – Prof. Pildar [09:20]

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2. Indian Spiritual Ecosystem: Diversity and Approach

Timestamps: [11:24] – [22:15]

• Prof. Pildar maps out India's spiritual landscape: Advaita (non-duality), Visishta Dvaita (qualified non-duality), Dvaita (duality).
• Four major paths identified by Vivekananda: Karma (action), Bhakti (devotion), Dhyana (meditation), Jnana (knowledge), with traditions overlapping in practice and doctrine.
• Spiritual diversity is both a source of profound wisdom and complex debate.

Quote:
"So devotion is devotion to a God and there is no dearth of deities in India. So you have personal devotion to that deity and you invoke that blessings from there." – Prof. Pildar [17:45]

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3. Encounter with S.N. Goenka & Entry into Vipassana

Timestamps: [22:15] – [36:55]

• First exposure to Goenka’s Vipassana in 1984 through a campus talk; initial skepticism based on claims of "pure Dhamma" over Indian traditions.
• National crises (political violence, personal loss of his son) led to a deep inner search, ultimately prompting Prof. Pildar to attend his first 10-day Vipassana course after confronting immense grief and guilt.
• Reticence due to Goenka's harsh criticisms of other traditions but encouraged to focus on practice rather than doctrine. Reports significant psychological relief and transformation for himself and his wife.

Quote:
"You forget about the talks, you just ignore them, you continue the practice and see what happens. You are a scientific person, so let's do this experiment and see." – Recounting Goenka’s advice [32:54]

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4. Goenka’s Critique of Other Traditions: Motivation and Impact

Timestamps: [36:55] – [61:07]

• The host and Pildar discuss Goenka’s repeated negative references to other Buddhist and Hindu teachers, both in India and Myanmar; speculation about reasons—correctional zeal, organizational purity, cultural context.
• Notable example: Goenka revised his discourses for Tihar Jail after backlash, resulting in more inclusive, compassionate teachings (unfortunately, these revised version were suppressed organizationally).
• Reflection on systemic issues within the organization's leadership and culture: lack of responsive change, dominance of certain voices, resistance to reforms.

Quote:
"I cut out all these portions which were deemed to be objectionable by the people and a sanitized version... became the Tihar discourses. So he did heed to that eventually... But unfortunately, ...they didn’t allow the use of those tapes in the general courses." – Prof. Pildar [50:10]

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5. Quantity vs. Quality, Organizational Growth and Mission Drift

Timestamps: [61:20] – [70:03]

• As Vipassana centers proliferated, Goenka prioritized seed-planting over student retention and depth, with attendant trade-offs.
• Growth in teacher appointments led to dilution of depth, challenges in training, and tension between organizational scale and spiritual substance.

Quote:
"My mission is that... those who have strong intention, parmis, they develop. Others may or may not develop." – Prof. Pildar, summarizing Goenka's stance [63:45]

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6. Practice, Experience, and Organizational Dynamics

Timestamps: [70:03] – [91:57]

• Prison outreach becomes a microcosm of both the miracles and challenges of large-scale teaching (Doing Time, Doing Vipassana documentary).
• Prof. Pildar advances up the ladder, undertakes intensive practice (multiple long-courses, profound meditative experiences, "kundalini" phenomena).
• By the 2000s, organizational priorities shift toward large projects (e.g., Global Pagoda), fund-raising, and infrastructure—diverting attention from practice quality and thoughtful development of discourses.

Quote:
"He started having confidence in me and interesting with me with more and more responsibilities... I could see deficiencies in teachers. Teacher training programs were developed..." – Prof. Pildar [84:50]

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7. The Core Shortcoming: "The Missing Self" and the Limits of Technique

Timestamps: [95:15] – [132:10]

• Central philosophical point: Vipassana as taught by Goenka creates spiritual progress (calm, concentration, ethical conduct) but falls short of facilitating realization of anatta (non-self)—the key Buddhist insight.
• Prof. Pildar grows increasingly concerned that, both in his experience and that of senior teachers, the practice fosters a subtle, reinforced sense of self—evident in hierarchy, teacher appointments, and attachment to achievement.
• Inquiry and study of other Buddhist traditions (especially the Thai forest lineage) lead Pildar to the view that awareness and realization of anatta require not only technique but also investigation, reflection, and alignment between philosophy and daily practice.

Quote:
"The whole practice is based on sense of self. I have to attain this. First I have to attain stream flow, free flow, then I have to attain dissolution... And therefore the sense of self is increasing." – Prof. Pildar [99:00]

• After resignation, studies Pali, early Buddhist texts, and learns from Ajahn Sumedho’s writings ("practice in accordance with the Dhamma"), finding these offer a clearer integration of impersonality and freedom.
• Reflects that the organization’s approach to scriptural study was discouraging; focus was on practice alone, with little incentive to engage with primary Buddhist teachings in depth.

Quote:
"We can't throw it out and practice with Ata and then say, okay, now we'll work on removing Ata. That won't work like that. So the manner in which we practice, we should try to integrate this understanding of impersonality in the process of practice itself." – Prof. Pildar [126:40]

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8. Final Reflections and Advice to Practitioners

Timestamps: [116:23] – [132:25]

• Vipassana as taught by the organization offers a solid foundation and valuable discipline, but is not the "ultimate" as once believed; for those seeking the fruits of true liberation—specifically freedom from self—further study, inquiry, and alternate approaches are necessary.
• Honest reflection on the human limitations of teacher, students, and organizations alike; recognition that institutional priorities often drift from original ideals.
• Stresses centrality of anatta as both insight and practice, and encourages critical engagement with teachings.

Quote:
"As long as the sense of self remains, what happens in the retreat? ... Craving and aversion get reduced... But sense of self is there, is strengthened... and within one month, all that is gone." – Prof. Pildar [129:25]

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Notable Quotes / Memorable Moments

• On Absolutism:
  "You think everybody was a fool and you are the only wise person...?" – Recounting reaction to Goenka's early discourses [32:40]

• On Method:
  "Just ignore them, you continue the practice and see what happens. You are a scientific person, so let's do this experiment and see." – Goenka (via Pildar) [32:54]

• On Organizational Drift:
  "He used to call it intellectual gymnastics." – On Goenka’s discouragement of textual study [121:18]

• On Teacher Ego:
  "If the sense of self remains preserved... you are apportioning more and more flags. You're raising your sense of self constantly by taking them as entities, taking them as achievements. Obviously the progress is in pain, you're stuck." – Prof. Pildar [102:38]

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Timestamps for Significant Segments

• Introduction & Spiritual Foundations – [00:15]–[11:24]
• Indian Traditions Explained – [11:24]–[22:15]
• Goenka Encounter & Vipassana Entry – [22:15]–[36:55]
• Goenka’s Critiques and Organizational Culture – [36:55]–[61:07]
• Growth, Teachers, and Priorities – [61:20]–[70:03]
• Practice, Long Courses, and Organizational Dynamics – [80:59]–[91:57]
• Technique Limitations & Anatta Inquiry – [95:15]–[132:10]
• Impact and Reflections for Practitioners – [116:23]–end

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Tone and Language

The conversation is deeply respectful, earnest, self-effacing, and at times raw. Prof. Pildar maintains a thoughtful yet unromantic tone—balancing gratitude for tradition with clear-eyed critique. The host, Joe, guides gently but persistently, holding space for both narrative and intricate philosophical inquiry.

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Final Takeaways

• The path toward liberation is complex, entangled with cultural, personal, and organizational forces.
• Prof. Pildar emerges as a voice for integrating critical reflection alongside dedicated practice.
• The "missing self" is both the gap in certain contemporary traditions and the unresolved question each practitioner must finally engage.

"The ultimate bondage is sense of self. So to the extent you drop it, to the extent you let go of it, you're free. You let go a little, you are free a little. Let go more, you are free more. Let go everything, you completely free."
– Prof. Pildar [126:54]

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This episode is a must-listen for students and teachers of Vipassana, as well as anyone interested in how spiritual organizations, doctrine, and lived experience collide in contemporary practice.

Transcript

[A]

At Insight Myanmar Podcast, we're dedicated to bringing on guests who can help foster a deeper understanding of the Golden Land, its history, culture and people. Yet to truly grasp the essence of Myanmar, one must also look beyond these aspects and into its spiritual heart. In this regard, each of the country's various religious communities represents a beautiful thread in the country's rich tapestry. In this particular episode, we explore the Buddhist tradition with our guest. For many in the country, Buddhism and meditation are not merely practices, but a way of life, shaping the rhythms of society and offering a path of insight and equanimity. Indeed, I would go so far as to suggest that without properly appreciating the spiritual and cultural foundation of the country, the full spectrum of Myanmar remains out of reach. So with this in mind, join us as we welcome today's guest to explore the profound role that the Buddhist teachings have played in the recent history and current trajectory of the country.

[B]

Sa. I.

[A]

We are happy on this episode of Insight Myanmar Podcast to be joined by Pl Dar, who is going to be talking about his largely his spiritual journey which went through a number of different Indian and Buddhist teachers and traditions and most prominently an extensive time with with the Vipassana Meditation Mission of SN Goenka, which we'll get into. But before we start and go into all of those very interesting stories, I'd like to warmly welcome Mr. Pildar to this episode and I'd like to give you the opportunity to introduce yourself here as well.

[B]

Well, thank you Joe. I'm an old man, 77 years old now and spiritual journey started in 75, which you can see more than 50 years professionally as a professor at Indian Institute of Technology, Delhi, teaching primarily mechanical engineering, but also with passage of time, many other things related to, you can say, science and spirituality. Working in the research also was oriented accordingly and students also personally pursuing the yearning to understand life remain the a very important preoccupation for over 50 years now.

[A]

And in that quest to understand life, as you say, you before you came in contact with Goenka's meditation and became deeply involved in Dhammagiri and the Vipassana mission, you you sought out and you studied under a number of swamis and gurus and other Indian spiritual masters in India. So can you talk a bit about those various gurus that you sought out and what they taught and how that inspired you?

[B]

You see, the Indian tradition, spiritual tradition is very wide and varied because of the family background and the conditions existing at that time. I became and I was introduced by my professor to teachings of Swami Vivekananda, a very prominent Vedantic teacher. So once I finished my PhD and I had joined the institute as a faculty member, I had some time to start my study of the teachings in a formal manner. So fortunately I had a friend who had similar interests. So from 74 onwards, we started studying the collected volume works of Swami Vivekananda, six volumes which basically were his teachings on Vedanta. And then that led to one after another to almost the entire Vedantic tradition of India, Bhagavad Gita, Upanishads. And in order to strengthen that, I used to go to Ramakrishna Mission where every Sunday we'd have a talk by one of the Sannyasis. So we had an opportunity to live discussion, talk and question, answer. Then also I started studying, practicing meditation on my own to whatever extent I could. We had a small shrine in our house and there used to do some puja and also sit silently, do some chanting, recite some mantra. So those kind of traditional things we did for a long time. But I came in contact with these many of the important masters, you know, who used to come, especially during winter to Delhi and give a series of talks on Bhagavad Gita or Vedanta or teachings of Ramana Maharshi. And with some of them we had an intimate relationship. Swami Bhumanandist was one with whom I interacted personally, impersonally. Attending talks is very prominent. Swamijanmayananda. Then his disciples and others, some of my friends were organizing such things so I could easily get information about them. Then some. One of the seats was one with whom I had a personal interaction because we were teaching the course in IIT also. So we used to explain what we are doing and he used to suggest what should be done. We invited him to my institute also for talks. So we had a good interaction with him for many years. But the biggest interaction was with another saint from Lucknow, Swami Sanatan Sri, who was a medical professional before becoming a monk. Very intuitive understanding of Vedas, primary Vedas. So that was very fascinating and very interesting. So spent large amount of time, many years, to go to his ashram in Lucknow and stay there along with my friends and then with my family and study from him the basic Rig Veda especially and understand his explanations of how to practice identification with the divine. So he had his own methodology which involved some amount of auto suggestion, some amount of visualization. I tried to do that. But that kind of practice somehow didn't match with my temperament, I could say. But certainly his Intellectual aspects was very profound. He taught Vedas in a profound manner, taught other scriptures in a very profound manner. So with him I had many years interaction very intense. And to the extent that it gave confidence in the understanding of the Indian tradition as the belief, implicit belief in the existence of an atman ata and that being the, the score of our existence and everything else being around it as peripherals. And then he also used to do these yajnas, you know, fire worshipping or something of that kind. He used to fire, you know, I also used to practice it and feel greatly uplifted because he would explain the mantras which you will chant. He used to explain them in a highly spiritual manner as invoking the utmost reality within us and not identifying with the body, mind and other complexes. So that continued for quite some time. Besides of course other traditional practices in our country. Going to temple and sitting there quietly invoking divine blessings, pleasures. So this continued for about 10 years. So it gave some stability because life in my personal life is also getting difficult. My son had some problems, health problems, had a son and family also there were some issues. So it kept me in good shape in handling all the unpleasant situations in the life. And that too in a very wholesome manner on the basis of some understanding of law, of karma, some understanding of I am not the body, not the mind. So these kind of basic intellectual understanding we could gather from there.

[A]

Right. And your, before we get into your involvement with Vipassana meditation, I wonder if to our audience that may not be so familiar with Indian spiritual traditions and the, and some of the, the, the spiritual arguments that happen, the followings, the, the gurus, the, the philosophies. I mean this is a whole ecosystem of, of a very, very, very intense debates and, and impassioned arguments and you know, various forms of wisdom that are being asserted and, and, and taught and studied. Can you, for those that, that have never been to India or don't know much about these kind of spiritual traditions, can, can you paint a picture of and describe, you know, what, what the environment and the context is like in terms of the, the many teachers that are promoting and sharing different forms and methodologies and theories and the followings and just kind of the, the importance of these movements in India which I think kind of stands out from other countries.

[B]

See, we read every rich tradition which, most of which find their roots in the Vedas, which are supposed to be very ancient, some say 7,000, 10,000 years old or whatever it is. But those Vedas have their, partly they have something to talk about. The what generally is believed to be the ritualistic portion, which is how to do the fire ceremonies, what are called Yajnas and the mantras for them, invoking divine devas for certain blessings. But most of these Vedas also have. And at the end of them, which is called Vedanta, Vedanta means Anta means end. So end of the Vedas there are spiritual books based on inquiry into the nature of reality. So there's large number of Upanishads. They're called Upanishads. Upanishads meaning those which have been delivered by sitting near a guru. So they are of course the whole of the Indian tradition has been oral tradition, sometimes immemorial till modern times when it has been written down. So the. There's a one to one relationship between teacher and the student question, answer. And they basically try to understand what is the nature of reality? Who am I? What is the. What is existing here? What is their relationship of my relationship to the world, to the cosmos? What is the ultimate reality? What is the apparent reality? So these kind of questions have been asked and different reply answers have been obtained. So there are at least, I mean there are very large number of traditions. But I'm just trying to point out in Ballparkman in an overall manner, three, three primary traditions which flow from Vedas. One is the Advaita, which means the whole reality is one and the appearances are different. There's only one universal consciousness, you can say, which permeates everything. They call it Brahman. Then there is Visishta Dvatha which says there is one, but there is a special relationship with the divine. And then there is Dvayta, which is, which is purely a kind of God versus devotee relationship. There's a duality. So we have non duality duality and an intermediate level of duality, non duality. There are three primary traditions. The most popular one obviously is the duality one, which is you have a God and you have. We are here, we as devotees and we seek his blessings through prayer and good deeds and wholesome actions. But that is a. That is a popular one, but the core of philosophical one, which is which the people who are investigative oriented, who are flare for analysis, will go for the Advaita which has gone, which is formulated in modern times by adi Shankara, some seventh century, which is about 1300 years ago. So the Advaita philosophy is essentially saying that everything else, whatever we see, is an illusion. It's not reality. Reality is something which is concealed and which has to be found by Suitable practice. Firstly, which practice of purifying the actions, the speech, the mind through various processes and then meditating to develop strong concentration, Samadhi, and then penetrating into the nature of reality. So in a very great measure, it matches with the Buddha's teaching. But there are very stark differences in terms of the final answer. There are differences in terms of the preparatory steps. It is quite similar. You can say Sheila Samadhi, but Panya here is different from Panya and the Buddha's teachings. Here there's a search for the unifying principle, which is called. So the unifying. The. The ultimate reality in me is called the Atman, and ultimate reality in the world is called the Brahman. So the non duality teaching says Atman is the same as the Brahman. In duality teaching, they are seen as different. That's a very, very rough way of putting it. So this is the generic, very brief introduction to the traditions. What I have been trying to follow was Advanta, where the investigation into the nature of reality is prominently done. The interesting thing is that all of them derive all these three apparently different schools or their origin to the same books. It's a question of how they interpret the right teachings in the books. Same Upanishads interpreted in three different ways. So this is a prominent teaching, a Vedic teaching. But there's another big chunk of Shaivite teaching that is from the place from where I belong, the Kashmir. Kashmir. Shaivism is a totally different branch which is basically advaitic in science, but it has a mixture of variety of things. There is practices of meditation, of intense meditation, of some kind of transcendental practices. What's called the focus more on the nervous systems and the Kundalini Yoga and so many other things. That's another tradition which is very prominent in some areas. So these are the. In my, I mean, brief summary of the Indian traditions, so to say, of course, there are many sects and many, many teachers who have come over last, especially in last 1500 years. And so the various, various acts which evolved. But all of them have similarity in a great extent. Minor differences in, and the appearance in the way they. Importance. What is. What is giving. Importance is given to chanting. Importance is given to mantra somewhere. Importance given to investigation. Some people talk of particular divine, personal God and have a devotion to that. Bulk of the people follow, of course, the path of devotion. Swami Vivekananda classified the whole spiritual panorama of India into four parts. Path of Action, Path of Devotion, Path of Meditation and Path of Knowledge. So that's a very beautiful way of understanding the totality of Indian traditions. And you can put various traditions in each one of them. So devotion is devotion to a God and there is no dearth of deities in India. So you have personal devotion to that deity and you invoke that blessings from there. You understand the qualities of that. And it is mostly for having our worldly life sorted out and ultimately next life we live in the abode of the deity. That is the path of devotion. Path of action is selfless service serving humanity and in the process purifying the mind. So all of them have various methods of purifying the mind. So the path of service is through selfless activity. Then there is path of meditation, various kinds of meditations, yog sutras and others. Then path of knowledge is through investigation. So Vedanta is a combination of knowledge and meditation, so to say. Of course other things are also there, but prominently in each of them. There are all the four are present to some extent in each of them. But what is the most prominent thing I mentioning that. So that's a way of understanding the spiritual horizon of our country.

[A]

I appreciate that that's. It's a, a very clear introduct some of the spiritual paths and thought processes in India for those that would not be acquainted to it and understanding the, the. The. The types of, of. Of spirituality and of practice and of. Of doctrine and, and that sets the stage for then coming from that background and being interested as you said on your long journey of, to that point of being absorbing different doctrines and practices of different gurus and swamis at that time. It's then 1984 and Ascend Goenka comes and delivers a talk at the convocation hall of the Indian Institute of Technology where you are a student and you go and listen to it and think that, appreciate the talk but feel not quite ready for it. Then as life develops, there's both a. Which I'll prompt you to share this story. There's both a, a personal and a political crisis that happens that makes you think about the, the Vipassana course in. In somewhat of a different way and presents a kind of a greater urgent need for it. So I'd like to prompt you to share that story as well as to talk about what where as Goenka is giving this talk on Vipassana meditation coming from a Burmese Buddhist tradition in an Indian college to engineers, people largely like yourself, that are coming from various Indian spiritual backgrounds away from Buddhism. If you could also talk about, you know, the context of how Goenka's presentation of what he was teaching and what these doctrines were. How that fit or contrasted with the. This background of Indian spiritual tradition that you have have just laid out.

[B]

Yeah. See, as I had said after I joined as a professor in IIT in 74, my spiritual this kind of d way, or you can say urgency start rising, becoming larger. So I was able. I was exploring whatever was available. So in the beginning, those 10 years, whatever could be made available. And it's not that I met everybody, but whatever I could find time and meet them. I tried to see them. And in the process I did benefit a lot. And it's definitely much better able to handle the stress, able to live in a much more wholesome manner. Fortunately, my ethical moral precepts are always right from childhood, pretty stable. There was no such issue. But samadhi also I practiced during these 10 years based on the books itself. And I did feel benefited. Especially my concentration power had increased substantially. And the reason I started getting bit skeptical about the meditation practices was that when I practiced concentration on a statue, where one of the casinas, as you call it, is a form which taken of a statue of a God or a goddess you adore. So I had taken one statue and I used to focus on it and then concentrate in a systematic manner. Exactly like what Buddhist tradition is called casino meditation. So I concentrated on it and it became so strong that if I close my eyes, I would see the picture of that God. And then I could see it. I can open my eyes and I could impose it on anywhere. Now once I started doing it, I had a very inquisitive mind is I don't easily accept things. So I thought if it is. If it is just I am doing it, I can do project this image of this deity on anybody. So then I can say this deity is present in everybody. So I am actually creating that situation by my mind. Rather than this being the reality as it is I'm imposing reality on the things. So I got a bit skeptical of things. And many of the teachers who had pointed out that the God resides in everybody based on their meditative experience. I began to be a bit wary of that. That it is probably a kind of extrapolation from their meditative experience. And they really not invest. Not looked at it very carefully. So there was some bit of doubts were coming. But then the general understanding of precepts and samadhi and to some extent intellectual understanding of the body mind complex not being me, that sustained and did a lot of Good. But in 84, you know, we had a lot of Problems in India, there is a lot of violence. Then our prime minister was assassinated. Then there was Union Carbide accident. Thousands of people died. And the mind was quite getting saddened by the things. And then to top it all, my elder son, he got infection in his heart and he passed away on 4th of January 1985. In 84October, Goenkaji came to IIT and gave a talk. And I listened to his talk and he mentioned about pure Dhamma. And he mentioned that whatever Indian tradition does is samadhi work. It doesn't. It's not able to penetrate into the subconscious level. There is a super. There is a kind of superposition of some beliefs on the mind which helps in keeping good mental state. But it doesn't just remove the latent tendencies. And therefore if the mind is stirred up very much then the latent tendencies come up and one gets. Somehow his statement that this is pure Dhamma and others are not. I felt a bit uncomfortable with it. And then I got reflected on what I was doing. So I thought, I'm also doing pure Dhamma. There's no sectarian issue involved in it. I know what I am doing very clearly. And then after the talk I came to know that a course was being arranged from IIT faculty for the teachers of iit. So my friend told come on, you also join. But I somehow didn't feel like joining at that time because I was very much enamored of my teacher. And he seemed to be a very much more. He's a monk, you know, Mr. Nyasi Indian, very radiant face and extremely high Samadhi. Much more charismatic, even more than Venkaj. So I said, okay, at the moment I don't feel need. We'll see. And then after my son died, I could see that my mind could. I could tackle the fallout of that unfortunate event. But family was totally broken. My wife, my parents, everybody was. So I was the only one who was somewhat stable and maintaining some semblance of an order in the family. And this I continued. I mean at the conscious level I wasn't really much disturbed. But I could see that something was stirring up inside. People would come and make some session. Oh, you should have taken him to that doctor. You didn't go abroad. You would have got this medicine, that test. No, I kept on listening to that was not an opportunity. I didn't want to argue with them anything. So I just kept on listening it slowly and slowly it created a doubt in my mind whether I really was responsible for killing my son. As These people are saying. So it really upset me. And by end of three months, that is that my prill was quite mind was getting into spinning, you know, Prabhancha was arising very heavily and I needed to really sort it out because I was getting income, some kind of a psychosis. So I took leave because April is a very busy month in academic calendars. But I took leave for 2 days, 3 days I was sat in my shrine room and reflected on all the teachings which I had done of karma, life and death, whatever governs life, whatever was death and my own intentions. And I became clear that there's no question that I could be responsible for killing a person if he didn't deserve it. That the law of the belief in law of karma was so strong that I could see that yeah, maybe I became a instrument, if it be. But when I saw my intention and I had taken him to the best hospital available in the city or probably in the country, it is a government hospital. So slowly, slowly I could bring some semblance of order. So after the semester ended, I went to. Sat on the banks of Ganges for many days, calming down the mind by meditation and contemplating. And it was there that they thought arvas that maybe Goenka Ji was saying, right, that there is something which our practice is not able to penetrate into the subconscious mind. So why not try it out? So it was in the month of May that this was happening. So then, along with my requested my friend because I was not in good health to join me. And then we both went to Jaipur in July 85 to sit the course. And then of course the course was in the beginning quite tough because in those days the discourses of Gwenkaji are very strident, extremely critical of the tradition, Indian tradition. So, and I have been following that tradition. So I felt it very insulting. And actually after three days I told him, I'm going and what are you talking? You think everybody was a fool and you are the only wise person. And then he laughed and said something about one teacher. I don't want to say all that. And this, this is, this is true then what is that true? Not this true. I didn't want to argue. I don't generally argue with people. I said, but somehow I'm feeling very uncomfortable with your talks practice I am doing. Is it okay? You forget about the talks, you just ignore them, you continue the practice and see what happens. You are a scientific person, so let's do this experiment and see. So that struck me and said, okay, let me do that and not Bother about discourses and whatever you say there, whatever comments you make about others, I just ignore them. So when I continued practice, I could see that at the end of 10 days there was a lightness felt in the mind and the kind of peace which I felt was quite different from which I had felt before. Hitherto at that time, and especially coming from a situation where mind had been very much disturbed, I could see that the practice was doing something good. So that created confidence. And that's how. Then we started practicing more. Of course, immediately when I went home, there's some. I think some fell ill, there was some problem. So my practice was not very regular. And then I had to switch from my earlier practice to new. So it took some time going. Taji said, you can continue to do that and do this after some gap. So I somehow slowly and slowly transited to this practice. And then one of my friends in IIT said, let us organize a course here in IIT so we did it in December 85. And then my wife sat it and I acted as the volunteer and served the course. So she had a very tough course, obviously she was so deeply afflicted. For almost nine days she was constantly crying. Then at the end of the course, I could see she was. For almost one year she had lived in a kind like. Almost like a zombie. She was going to school, teaching students coming back and no idea of our younger son. My parents are looking after him. But after that course she could see there was a quantum change in her mental state. And I could also meditate very in good environment and proximity of a teacher for 10 days. So that gave me a good result and I felt that this must be practiced and that's how the path started. And we started practicing very intensely.

[A]

I find it interesting in your story, you know, mentioning the. The initial kind of resistance to the practice, or maybe not resistance, but a feeling that you. That it wasn't quite so urgent. And then, you know, you have these incidences that I think the word, the poly word, Sam Vega comes to mind of the. The urgencies of life. I mean, the political instability which is. Which, as we know in Myanmar, just kind of makes everything feel a bit uncomfortable. And we're going through that in America a little bit right now. And then, you know, the absolutely tragic, horrific, searing pain that the loss of a child would do. I can't even imagine what going through that experience would be. And the contemplation that, you know, through that which drove you to. To just look for relief or understanding in any form and so, you know, hearing that kind of intensity of suffering driving you to a teacher and a method and an organization and a facility that was promising some kind of answers that would be found internally and through the practice. And that's. That. That parts, you know, it's really wonderful. I want to get to the later years and where you talk about the intensive practice that you. You characterize that was taken on. I just want to come back to one part of your story and pull one thread first, because I found it, you know, first. I thank you for your honesty and sharing the. The. The concerns you had about the negativity that Goenka was expressing about the other largely Indian spiritual traditions that many were doing. And, you know, coming from those traditions and hearing them criticized in that way, I can. I can understand how there was some discomfort with that. I mean, to the extent that you actually wanted to. To leave the course environment altogether. And I think it really speaks to, you know, to the most underlying aspect of what was really important to Goenka, that being the practice, that his answer really hits at saying, you know, if. Leave all these other things aside. If these things are bothering you, if you're having an issue with these, just. Just leave those aside with the practice. The practice is what's going to help you. And he would later coin that into one of the. The. The metaphors that he tells throughout the course about the. The cardamon, that seed that's in the. The. The Indian kier, and the. The humorous story about how a child thinks that the cardamon seed is not good for him. It's a black stone, and says, take the black stone away. I don't want it. And so the adult takes the black stone, even though it's cardamom, and then the child eats the rest of it. And. And in this. And so essentially, you know, Goenka in. In assuring you to not be bothered by some of these critiques and instead just say, stay with the practice that was, you know, the. The metaphorical cure of the liberating practice that would would, as you say, would really reach you and would. Would speak to that. Those depths of suffering that you had and, you know, that priority, that prioritization of practice that Goenka so fervently promoted and so much believed in and so much was trying to bring to people and encourage them to take on. I think that stands out from your story. But what also stands out from your story, you know, the second part. And so that's. That's one part of the balance that I want to get to is just the, the primacy of practice, the belief in practice, how going back to the technique would, would, would help in so many ways and wanting to bring that to the masses, but that can't be separated from the fact. And this is also where I want to ask about that. You know, Goenka was, in your words, I wasn't there. I don't understand Hindi. I don't know the context of these Indian traditions, but in your words, his, the intensity of his critique and the intensity of his negativity in, in characterizing these other traditions while promoting and holding up his technique and his tradition in kind of superlative forms. Well, this also happened in Burma. I mean, he, you know, if, if you don't know about the Burmese traditions, you might not catch them, but you know, Sun Loon or Mahasi or some of the others. He, some of the others of Pashta traditions, you know, he, he made some jokes and snide comments and sarcasm in the, in the discourses that were hinting at the ridiculousness of, of these kinds of techniques and juxtaposing the, the, the so called, you know, correct or pure forms that, that he was teaching and so there. And, and we had a guest on the podcast who was with Goenka in those early days and referenced, you know, this, this guest referenced how they, they really pleaded with Goenka not to be so negative and not to be so critical these other traditions, not to keep kind of going after these other teachers and, and, and, and doing so at an expense of trying to prop up the, you know, again, the purity of this organization. And so, you know, my question is it's this balance of like on one hand, you know, really appreciating that at its core, Goenka really seemed to understand that it was all about the practice and that there should be no barrier to a student walking away from the overall traditions or teachings and an essential practice that could come of it through any other part of the management or administration or discourses or anything else, that that was the most important, important thing. So he really had his eye on the ball in terms of that priority. But it also has to be said that he seemed, you know, both in, in context with Burmese Buddhist traditions, with later Western teachers going back to Indian spiritual traditions, he did seem to have a bit of an animus to want to go out of his way to say things that were very much against and negative and critical to those other traditions, while, you know, also indicating the single purity of this tradition only. And, and one kind of has to wonder, well, why this was a choice. You know, what, why. And even when students were encouraging him to kind of tone down that rhetoric at the, and as you say in your example, you know, it got to a point that you actually wanted to leave the course. It was so extreme. He stayed with it. You know, it was, it was that, that, that, that kind of rhetoric was something that for whatever reason he, he wanted to continue and wanted to, to, to lean further in. And so you know, what, what are your thoughts as to, as you got to know him better as a person, as you got to see the wider tradition, do you have any, any thoughts or insights into why that was something he couldn't really step away from and that, you know, the, the, the, the, the critique and the negativity expressed towards kind of all other traditions and teachers. While you know, juxtaposing that with the, with the, the, the single handed purity of his tradition, why was that something that he was choosing to do rather than just teaching the technique as it was?

[B]

Well, I can answer that question with great length but because I didn't become very close to him and was there for a very long time very close to him and naturally such questions would come and his answer was that the spiritual tradition in India is so strongly based on God and benediction of God and somebody will that if I pray to God enough that God will do something for me. So they were not really geared towards self improvement. They are depending on others. And it's not wrong. Bulk of the people have that feeling because of the devotional aspect. But I must now say having experienced everything that though it was good as a strategy, but to think that devotees are all fools and they have not got it correct is a, is not a very wise thing to say. And maybe I can fast forward and tell you about an incident. In 1993. I was appointed as a teacher and my first assignment was to introduce meditation in Tihar jail. Tihar is in Delhi is a prison which is one of the biggest prisons, if not the biggest in the country. Very hardened criminals are there. So we had, because of various reasons there was a request to conduct meditation course there. And that request was sent to Ram Singh Ji. I don't know if you know him. He was our senior teacher in Rajasthan and Jaipur. A senior administrator, retired administrator. And he knew me because I had done my courses in Jaipur. So he told me he should help me and then we went and did the first course there. After whatever preparations were there during the first course when the discourses were being played and I'm talking of the discourses now in 93. Those discourses in 93 were already tuned down from 85 version. Because Goenkaji had been getting feedback that these discourses are too strident and there is no purpose gained. It only annoys the people and people from other traditions. Those who want to come, they get annoyed and it's not a very good strategy. So he had toned down those strident remarks. But Even then in 93 when the course was conducted in the Arjun there were some remarks about some Hindu gods. They were not remarks about him. He was affectionately talking about it. But they were misinterpreted by the prisoners. And they just blew up on the course. On the. I think sixth or seventh, fourth or fifth, I don't know exactly. They got two or three of them. I mean this was a course being conducted for prisoners. All of those prisoners were life sentences. Which means they had conducted. They had either committed murder or robbery. There are about 40, 30 or 40 of them. And three or four of them got up and they started threatening us. What is this discourse? You are talking so disparagingly about Hindu gods. And you talk Buddha as Bhagawan and you talk Ram as Bichara Ram and this and that. We are going to smash this TV of yours and throw you out of this place. If you don't improve, if you don't stop this threatened publicly. People were really frightened because those people were already under life sentence. If they kill one more person, it doesn't matter to them. And this jail superintendent, others really scared to their bits. They said, sir, please don't come out without our security because we are staying in the same premises. They locked us up and told us to go lock them. Every prisoner. Their night was locked up and they were really worried. But somehow next morning we went. There is Ram Singh Ji and myself. We went. And another person who was a kind of, what should I say, the most, Most dreaded criminal, if I may use that word. He got up and told us, Guruji, don't worry. I have told him that you better behave. You are not going to do anything. So don't worry, nothing will happen. So we went around and practiced Metta. And then on that night at 10 after the session ended we sat and meditated in that improvised meditation hall which is a tent from 10 to 12 we meditated with as you walk in state and meditation and spread Metta so that things can come down. Now this feedback I gave to Venkaji. And then I think in 94 we had a Course in trail when he was Goenkaji came himself and I requested him that all the discourses should be changed. All those trident remarks should be removed. The Indian God should be divine. People should be talked of respectfully. So he gave me the write up of all these discourses, their transcription. He said, better son, you take it and cut out whatever you want to cut. So I cut out all these portions which were deemed to be objectionable by the people and a sanitized version of the discourse was prepared. Is wonderful. Where everything was positive and they became the Tiharajal discourses. So he did heed to that eventually in 94. But unfortunately, very unfortunately in the people around him, they didn't allow the use of those tapes in the general courses. They said no, these are the course, they are tapes outside will continue to use the same tapes. I tried to request him so many times. Guruji, it is not why these are also your discourses. These are your discourses. These are later discourses. They are much more beautiful, much more benign and very much appreciated by people. Why don't you allow them? He said, yeah, use them. But then other people, those who are senior to me in the hierarchy, they didn't allow it so easily. And that is eventually that became one of the reasons for me to resign from the place 20 years later. Very sad.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a lot there as I'm hearing that I'm, I'm struck again thinking about what the motivation was in doing this. And you know, you gave an answer that it was strong language to want to correct, do a course correction on the, some of the strongly held Indian philosophies, kind of shake them up and show them Buddhist, I want to say Buddhist perspectives. But of course Goenka claims it's non sectarian. So you know, it's, I don't know, perspectives according to the Buddhist teachings, I guess we have to say to be, to be accurate to how he might describe it. And, but you know, again we have to look at the pattern that he did the same thing with Burmese Buddhist Vipassana masters. He did the same thing with Western teachers and traditions that were coming and, and West. And as I mentioned, a Western student on this platform from the early days said that she also pleaded with him to, to tone down some of his negativity towards those other traditions. And you know, so I think the, and then I think that story about the cardamom becomes very interesting because it's, it's a very interesting, the metaphor that he's presenting I find very Very complex, because he is. You know, he tells the story about how if there's any. Any. If you think there's any blackstone, take it out and eat the rest. But then he laughs and says, but there's no blackstone. It's only cardamom. So it's actually a joke that the child. And again, this is also important because you have a patriarchal relationship between a. Someone who's mature and who's an adult and a child, you know, in the tradition where the compassionate patriarch is laughing at the child for thinking that the cardamom is a black stone and saying, okay, well, if you don't want it, take it out. You don't have to eat it, but have the rest. But then later, as you mature, you'll find out there is no blackstone and it's only cardamom. And so it's actually kind of negating the agency of however the child feels, because the patriarch knows better. But this story also seems to be functioning in a kind of way that this. This negativity and this criticism and this. This promotion of pristine purity being the one and only. These are. These seem to be black stones that Goenka is intentionally putting in to a very beneficial practice which don't need to be there. And so the story is almost functioning as something of a disclaimer, almost a cover of. Of. Of wanting to. To. To sidestep and claim that the black stones are actually cardamom. And when I kind of argue, no, they're actually black stones. And so I go back to that question again of, you know, we get these two sides of Goinka in this story, this one thread that we kind of keep hanging on to from here, you know, from those first three days you walked out where he has this extraordinary, liberating practice. He's. He's an incredibly innovative master with extraordinary paramis as he's bringing. As he's finding a way to bring this to corners of the world that have, you know, never touched the Buddhist teachings before. Doing all of this in this, you know, really remarkable way that deserves all this credit. But, you know, we're all humans. We're not looking to. To take shots or. Or. Or, you know, find negativity. But we're all humans, and humans are flawed in all their own ways. And when you have a very important leader as the head of an organization or a culture or a country or something, then, you know, I think it is fair to look a little more deeply into their particular flaws and how those flaws have then affected many downstream from that. And so in this particular case, you know, we have this incredible work he's doing, but then alongside this work, he's, as I would claim, putting this black stone of, you know, of constant. Putting down others with the promotion of what he's doing and creating this kind of mythology or this kind of, you know, collective supremacy that. Within the followers of that tradition. And so I'd ask the question again, you know, being around them so much, what, what do you think was driving this need to not just simply teach this very beneficial technique and just say this, this is very good for you and you'll benefit and it'll help in this, in this way, but to present it as a panacea that was far and above all of these other mistaken techniques and teachers that one needed to disassociate themselves with. What, what, what do you think was driving that particular, that particularly strong animus in wanting to put down these others at the, at the promotion of, of. Of his own organization and practice?

[B]

I really can't say for certainty. What I really feel sad is that the discourses of Tehar, which are, I would say, nearly perfect, there was no negative implication about anybody in that actually there were positive leads brought about other traditions. Everything negative I had removed and he agreed with it. And he added on his own many new things about Islam and about other teachers, how they were also promoting SHIELD and Samadhi in some way. So. But, but what intrigues me really is that why were those not being propagated? Why are those not being used? And that's a. I mean, I'm just. It just beats me when I told him, please. And the other. See some seniors, you know, I don't know, there's some. I don't know what, what to say. It's really totally unimaginable. Why should the discourses which are so beautifully done by him, only recorded in such adverse circumstances in Tihar Jail. Nicely done, everything available. Why are they not being used? It is basically the group of people who surrounded him who somehow told him that this is for Tihar, this is for that. And these are wonderful. These. Some people, like P El Dhar and others, they say these are problematic. Why should you bother about them? But I'm sure they must have told him many things that. About the greatness of criticizing others. And he might have accepted that. I don't know really. What totally. I just couldn't understand what was the reason. I personally told him because I'm talking 94. I was there till 2010. So many times he said we should use the course in other also initially he said okay. And then again something happened at the organizational level and they closed group and they said no, no, we should not use them. I said are meant for prisoners and not for others. I mean it beats me totally. I just can't understand even now I don't know what is being done. I have not aware of this going on there now. Even now if those discourses are publicly made available I'm sure any everybody will wonder will understand that they are wonderful discourses. There's almost no negative. I think. I don't think. I think I had removed all negativity. I mean I had completely colored that whole transcript. Like most of it I had cut off. And then he added very beautiful new instances from life as Prophet Muhammad and some other Indian teachers, Indian spiritual leaders which gave the their qualities of moral ethical qualities their ability to withstand criticism, their ability to maintain forbearance. Very good, beautiful examples. I don't know why why those who are not allowed to be used elsewhere. It's beyond me to understand and regarding why this all I would say is we are all carrying with our own anushaik tendencies. Unless one becomes an aranth.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Latent tendencies make us do things in spite of our wisdom.

[A]

Sure. And I think this is where you know one is simply trying to present Goinka in human terms in. In the fully formed human that he was as all of us were that allow us to see decisions that were being made and the effect of those decisions today to simply have a conversation about it. As far as those tapes at T har jail go first, do you know if those tapes still exist anywhere publicly that they could be accessed? And secondly, are they used in t hard still today? Are there still courses going on there?

[B]

Our meditation center is closed. I think I left the place into left the organization in 2010. I think after two, three years they got closed. So I don't know whether it is used in any other jail now because I'm not in touch with anybody. But those tapes must be available. I'm sure there must be an archives. One of the were very young dynamic persons was archiving everything for long term in a micro in electronic system in America. I remember mentioned it that once you when the problem started emerging then he mentioned it and I very much appreciated that. See, if the tradition has to remain pure it should be one to one. The moment you build an organization then complexities come up and the organization has its own dynamics, it demands its own constraints and there are demands of money Discipline and all that creates this complication. It stifles the growth, stifles innovation because of the need to maintain certain sanctity of the teaching. So. Especially in a organization led by lay people who still have worldly ambitions, worldly expectations, the possibility of such kind of things happening, personal interests dominating over Dhamma, there's always there. And you can see most. That's why the chances of such things happening in organizations led by monks are lesser. It's not that it doesn't happen there also it can happen, but the possibility is lesser because there's no family, there's no attachment to some set of those people. Comparatively for a layperson, families are important and families interests have to be taken care of. So all these things make it a very difficult task for a lay organization which has. As it grows, especially you know. One simple thing I'll tell you. As the organization grows, you need large number of teachers. Now if you have a tendency to allow more and more centers to be set up, you need more and more teachers. How do you get such teachers? People are not so easily mature to be able to teach. So you're forced to appoint teachers who are half cooked or quarter cooked. So difficulties are bound to happen in. When the. When we don't remain within our limits, when we are not contented with. When you are not focusing more on quality than on quantity. And Goenkaji had been given by his teacher the mandate that you should try to spread the seed of Dhamma in as many people as possible. He told me personally, because when I asked him that the quality of the meditators is not very good and we are appointing, we are forced to appoint teachers among them, he said that I have been given this mandate and I am following my teachers. So even if say out of 100 people who attend a course, if only 10 people come for the second course and 90 don't come, that seed of Dhamma is in them and someday they will. It will fructify and it will grow into tree. So my mission is that. So those people who are Parmis, those who have strong intention, strong Brahma, some way they practice and develop. Others may or may not develop. When that kind of mission is there, then these problems are bound to happen. So this is how I understand.

[A]

It's really that quality, quantity is something we've explored a lot with western teachers and your. I really appreciate how you're able to give us this direct response right when. When you presented this concern to Gwenka G. And how he responded by saying by by doubling down and leaning into the fact that we're, we're spreading seeds, that's what we're meant to do. And understand the quality of many students may not be very high, but we're, we're planting these seeds so that later in life or in future lives they've had some kind of access. And how I'd respond to that is I actually, I really respect that answer for its honesty. I respect it for its clarity in terms of what that mission is. And I actually don't have a problem with it. I think that if, that, if an organization wants to do that, if that's what their mission is, then. And they understand, you know, as any kind of businessman or leader would. Would do in looking at the decisions they're making, the impact of those decisions. If you're understanding that a lot of the, the students that are coming are, are that, that they, they. They may not be coming back. You're, you're. You're investing in kind of future growth, not just in this lifetime, but later lifetimes. And that's kind of the, the bet and the mission that you're taking on. I think power to you. There's nothing wrong with that. My criticism and my concern comes from the fact that the, the inner mission as you had just expressed really does not align with the outer messaging and the outer messaging and how it's being described and, and what it's being. What's being told to students is functioning very, very differently from at the top echelons. What, how the intermission is being understood. And I think then you end up with a very serious cognitive dissonance of. And that's one of many examples of how what is being done and followed and promoted as a mission is very different than how it's being marketed and presented and sold to students. And that's where you end up with complexes.

[B]

You see, it is being. That is being marketed as the technique has the potential to achieve the highest goal. That's how it is being marketed. We can have a difference of opinion on that also. But the. It is not being said that by attending the course you will become enlightened. That kind of thing is not being said. Constantly suggested that if you work on this path long time, constantly, then this will happen. So if a person comes and attends a course and gives up, he has chosen not to work on the path. So those who work seriously and who take this path seriously and intensely practice can maintain regular practice, attend two, three courses every year and do this seva and all that. Definitely they'll progress. So to that extent there's not a much of a dissonance in them. The dissonance is at some deeper level which I think will come out later when you talk.

[A]

Right. So we'll, we'll bookmark that and, and come back because we are getting quite, quite ahead on these, you know, very interesting and important topics. I, I actually, I want to shift gears slightly and go back to Tihar because we, you, you gave this fascinating story about, you know, the, the reaction these prisoners had to Hindu traditions being criticized and this change Goenkaji made and how that was. You ended up with these really beautiful discourses. But in the telling of that small story we kind of skipped over the miracle that the Tihar was. And there is a film on this, a very, I think a very sanitized documentary that may not really hold up given, especially given some of the, the details you're giving called doing time, doing Vipassana that, that, that, that showed some of these courses.

[B]

Yeah, it was made when I was there. Yeah. See the, one of the warders of Sahar jail had attended a Vipashna course on his own. And since he had benefited, he told the, the boss of the. Which happened to be Kiran Bedi at that time. She's a very dynamic lady. So she was, she genuinely interested in seeing that prison should be not a place of punishment, should be place of rehabilitation. So she was thinking of finding some doing. She allowed so many NGOs to come and teach. Some were teaching language, some were teaching skills, some were teaching drawing, some were teaching music, some teaching Yoga, some teaching physical exercise. So she opened up their heart so that people would come and the prisoners have some positive inputs from the society. And then when this person told her about meditation, she was very much intrigued. And so she said, written a letter to Ram Singh Ji and then Goenkaji sent it to Ram Singh Ji who is the teacher and senior most teacher in that area. And he was a former bureaucrats, very senior bureaucrat. So he had the idea, the basic wherewithal of handling difficult situations. So he came and he, since he had to come to Delhi, he came to IIT to stay and one of my senior colleagues was hosting him. Then the invite called me and said, you are in our teacher so you should help me. Okay, why not? So then I was asked, we went there, I had a talk with Kiran Bedi and all that. And then I was given the task of orienting the selected prisoners. The prisoners who were selected were all as I said, life or simply know Those who have got life imprisonment, so they are, they are all convicts. So they are sure to stay there, they can't go out. So we used to go and orientation of them and tell them what meditation is and all that. And it was a huge experience for us when we went there, you know, we take a small tape of and play that and then help them understand to the extent possible. And then we started getting, collecting the when the course date was finalized, they said, we asked get their background. So we gave them forms and said, please write down your background, whatever extent you can, you can share with us. So nobody wrote anything, why are they not writing? I said we could see that they would not like to share. So the jail supreme tell. No, no, it's not that they are not actually comfortable writing because many of them are not educated enough to even write. So you will have to go and sit with them and get it right. So we sat with them, I think I was the teacher and I had taken three, four more friends, two, three more. So we sat with them and all the convicts around us one by one. Initially, obviously we were a bit wary, you know, going amongst people who have extremely violent behavioral problems. But when we sat with them and asked them what did they do, what they do, they told us everything, what they did and whatever crimes they committed and what was done by them knowingly, what happened inadvertently. So built up the whole background of these, filled up those forms ourselves. And so that process, you could see that these are also human beings, they're not different species, even though they are life convicts. And it came kind of empathy developed for some of them because many of them were victims of anger, just a sheer rage arising. And they found that something was lying in the. In their proximity as a big stone or a big hammer and they threw at the person and the person died. And that's it. So it was a great kind of chastising experience for us. The twenties could see that the difference between them and us is very small. We also get angry, but somehow we don't cross the threshold. They just couldn't control it. And then when we talk to them in that manner, they understood, yeah, it should be helpful for us if we can control our rage and things of that kind. And then the courses started, first courses, every difficult course, as I mentioned, in the very first course we had that incident. But then at the end of the course, many people reported so many good things, changes in their thinking. One of them actually reported that he had for first seven days he was planning how he's going to Kill the judge when he comes out of it, the judge who has imprisoned him. So, and then he said, By 8 9th day, I thought, it's not good, I will get into more trouble. I think I should do forgiveness and practice, since this kind of dramatic results were experienced by a few people. Therefore, after first course, then we had four courses in the four different jails. The hours are complex, with very many jails. So then we arranged courses in each of the jails. Then we had a course for thousand people. So Kiramba, being a grand person, so she said, we'll have a course of thousand going, told her that my teacher had told that you'll have a course in which thousand students will come. So probably it will happen in Tihar. And that's what happened then and there. That's what I told you the other course and there we had a lot of difficulties in that course also, you know, but eventually that they are recorded in that film, doing time, doing Vipassana, the kind of difficulties he faced. But eventually everything went off fine and a large number of people benefited. And then slowly, meditation center was set up. Then we had courses there. There also we had problems. In fact, even a jailbreak took place. Then we shifted to another place at another center. And that center worked for a long time. I was in charge of that center for 16 years, 17 years, till 2010, when I quit the organization. Then I handed over to another person. So for 16 years we had regular courses there. Every month we had two courses, people coming from different jails. And we used to go there, prepare them slowly, slowly. In the first few years we had to go. In later years, the people who had already done the course, they would motivate the rest and they would come. And so it became a very successful intervention which helped the prisoners to calm down. Some of them changed their behavior, some became international stories. So all that happened.

[A]

So as we also talk about your development and path as a, as a practitioner and then a teacher in the going of a passion organization, I, you know, I, I want to get more into what this journey was, because we've kind of skipped over it. We've gone from 84, 85 to 93, 94 to 2010, and haven't talked about a whole lot that was happening in all those years. And what I'm curious about is, you know, you, you come across, and you describe yourself both in your writing and in, in as we're talking, as someone who takes your spiritual liberation very seriously. And, and, and you have it in a kind of, I sense, a kind of calm or quiet intensity, to want to really discover what, what those true teachings are. And, and then submit yourself to that path of, of intense practice going towards the ultimate human realization. And, and, and so, you know, from that first course in 85 and then through your intensive practice and teacher appointments in the organization, I would assume that for many of those years that you really did come to feel that this practice was the ultimate vehicle for where you wanted your spirituality to go. Yet at the same time you, you also come across as a reliable storyteller because you're, you're referencing a reliable narrator rather you're referencing your, you know, the, the, the realism of the, some of the critiques of, of, of challenges with the discourse. So you're, you're not giving us a sanitized or a romanticized version. Your, you know, you're really, you're, you're, you're, you're telling kind of the warts and all story of, you know, of, of a practice that was also extremely beneficial. And so what I'm curious about is that moving from 85 into later years of practice and long courses and association with the principal teacher and teacher appointments and everything else, were, were you, were you aware and did you have concerns about some of the organizational or personality or, or, or, or other types of issues that were embedded as you were also seeing a, a benefit of the practice or did that come later?

[B]

Were, see for first eight years it was intensive practice for me. Every year, of course, regular practice. The morning, evening. Every year I used to go attend at least two courses, two 10 day courses, then 30 days, 20 day course courses and 30 day courses, 45 day course. So I kept on strengthening my practice to see whatever Goenkaji is talking. This can be, this experience, this can be experienced. And by the 93rd, 93 when I had the second 30 day course, I had virtually experienced everything which she teaches. 1 Experiences during meditation and something more which is not a part of actually Buddhist tradition. So in fact my appointment as a teacher in 93 was a shock to me because I was sitting a long course in Jaipur. Gurinka Ji was present himself in that course. Ram Singh Ji was the main, you can say assistant to Goenkaji. And I had a very strong course. Complete dissolution of the body. Everything happened. And then I started working on the spinal cord. And then slowly and slowly I could see the. What is, what I later learned is called the arising of Kundalini. So that whole Kundalini movement arise these opening of all the chakras right from the bottom to the top. One by one, one by one, slowly, slowly, slowly, everything opened. All the seven chakras opened, in fact many more on whole of the body. The spinal cord started moving up and down. I mean whatever is letter I learned from the books, whatever is prescribed as arising of SK in the Kundalini Yoga. Everything I experienced in that. And then I was following the instructions of the Goenkaji. Once you have complete dissolution, then you work on the spine. I worked on the spine. Then you worked on the heart center. Then I worked in the heart center and at the extreme ecstatic experience. And it had a strong fallout. The whole body kind of dissolved from the top of the head. The whole strain of vibrations was coming out as if some water is coming out from the whole body and falling on him. And it was. And a complete. I don't know if you are aware of the Lord Shiva's pictures in Indian tradition. So whatever is this typical shown as Lord Shiva is seen as a great meditator with the Ganges flowing out of his head and coming out. So all those experiences actually had. And then when I walked on this heart center penetrated down into my genital organs and created havoc there. So that was the 29th day. I remember vividly. Next day of the matri. And the next day after I had to go to back to my office and start teaching. And my body was totally blown up. Then I got at 9:30, 9:00', clock, 9:15. I went back, washed myself and lied down on the bed. My whole body was completely illuminated. The sparkles are coming out from my whole body. So I close my eyes. Sparkles will come out from my whole body. So I just observed it equanimously, to whatever extent I could. And now in 10 o', clock, 10:30, there's no weakness, no possibility of sleep in case sleep had decreased substantially. So I thought I have to go to work day after, so I must sort it out quickly. So I went to Ram Singh Ji's home residence and woke him up and told him all the experiences that my whole body is effervescent. There are sparkles coming out of my whole body. And I close my eyes and also the whole body is vibrating. But I have no problem, no fear. But my only concern is that if this continues like this, how will I join my job? Day after I can't get any more leaves. It's so difficult to get leaves. So he said, okay, you take something, eat something. I said, I want to talk to Goenkaji. So he went up to goenkaji's residence and he said he's sleeping, he's close the door so we're meeting in the morning. Said okay. So I met, laid down in the bed. I mean I was I think one of the night I was just experiencing the impermanence of the body, sparkles coming out of the body. Probably might have slept for in the morning sometime. So next time next day when we went finally to K and explained to him what happened he said oh. He said in Hindi something to the effect you have been blessed. Great. I said you say you think. I didn't say him anything but I was feeling I've been blessed but I am in difficulty because I have to go to my office tomorrow. My whole body is effervescent and if I just concentrate for a minute my center starts working and all the body centers start going up and down, up and down. The Skundangi starts working. How will they work? I didn't tell him anything, I just lied down. I told Ram Singh he said take after maitra, things will improve and all anyway and under those conditions Ram Singh ji told me he wants you to be the teacher. I said do you know what is going on with me and you want me to be teachers? And no, no, that's pretty fine. He's very happy. And so that is the I'm giving this idea of the intensity of the practice and that continued in subsequent years also. Then I started conducting courses also and I somehow felt that probably I would be able to do a better job than many others. I mean it may sound immodest but I'm just putting it that but the quality of many of the teachers was not really very good. They couldn't really figure out what is happening in this front end. We had a protocol of answer giving stereotypes standard answers to questions so which was very inadequate in many cases. So I thought maybe I'll be able to help the organization and getting good teachers and making teacher training program and something on that. It was naive on my part but somehow it happened and I was eventually assigned the duty of all these kind of things. So I tried my best to see and then John Luxford from England and others joined together we developed teacher training because we could see deficiencies in teachers. Teacher training programs were developed and for India I was in charge for best. John Oxford was in charge. We did a lot of work, you know, proper protocol, procedures, how to answer questions, how to take care of difficult situations which arise. So very good training program was done for teachers. So in this process naturally I Came in very intimate contact with. And he started having confidence in me and interesting with me with more and more responsibilities. So as I became closer and closer, I came to know about the organizational issues. Till 2001, Goenkaji used to stay in Namma Vini. So he was surrounded by meditators, teachers and other things. Much was easily accessible and you could discuss things. And his health fail started falling. And he moved to home in Mumbai in 2001 or two. And then his access became lesser because he was in the family. And slowly and slowly distance increased between the meditative community, especially the senior meditators and the teachers who had quite access to him and him. That distance increased. And then in 2001 he took up the project of Global Pagoda in honor of that became a huge thing, you know, very huge. Investment was required. Money was required. So Goenkaji all efforts became care towards that. I kept on telling him, we need this in the Satipatthan discourse. You are not adequate. He agreed. We need courses for children, for adult teenagers, we need shorter courses. He also agreed. But all that would happen was teenager courses would be planned again. I have been preparing the discourses, chanting everything so that we have a good set of TN forces available. But in the whole process, the emphasis on Dharma started reducing. Didn't have time, because I must have requested an umpteen number of time personally, as a rescue secretary that we should have revised the Satiputan course. Because those discourses are absolutely inadequate. He agreed on that, but unfortunately couldn't find time to do that. Now. Once he got involved in the block in that global coroda, the amount of money needed was so much. And there were so many difficulties. Firstly, one structure was built, then it was demolished and another was built. So the whole emphasis became in that direction. And as a result the people were involved there. Money collection, all that activity that became dominant activity and Dhamma activity became less attendant. And that started creating difficulty, which eventually manifested in large number of problems, organizational problems.

[A]

I'm really struck by your last line there. Because it's such a contrast to the way we started out the conversation on your. Your experience. Experience in Gwenka Vipassana, where practice is primary and even where there is a difference or a discomfort with critiques of different traditions. Come back to practice, come back to the technique, to the courses. And you're describing a shift in the 2000s that is actually away from and moving further from this, this, this core principle that has always defined, you know, every aspect of how an organization and a center And a course and even a community should be run. Sometimes I would, I would argue, as I have on the past, almost to the detriment that practice becomes something of a closed loop system where you can't have discussions or critical thinking or engagement outside of it. But you know, to, to the credit of, of the way that many teachers and organizations have have prioritized, sometimes I think at too great of expense. The, the practice has always been. Been the, the. The central thing around which everything else revolves and sometimes where things get kind of bypassed or, or put out. But you're describing that at the, the principal teacher, the headquarters of this entire movement that paradoxically practice and both the, the act of practice as in the activity of practice as well as the community of those that were most closest to Goenka were. Were not coming from that same dedicated practice background as before. That as a result that started to somewhat shift the, the. The. The priorities and, and, and movement of the organization started to create some difficulties. Do I have that right?

[B]

Partly. The, One of the reasons for this was also the people around involved with that project. You know, Global Pagoda and members and some very senior teachers, they all gave impression to Venkaji that the teachings which he had prepared, the cassettes which are prepared, they are perfect. They needed no amendment, so they were sufficient to take care of the teaching. He doesn't need to worry. It's only some stupid people like me who keep on telling that some and Satiputta needs improvement, this needs improvement, that needs improvement. Otherwise their teaching is perfect, there's nothing to be done. So he, I think accepted that version of theirs and thought that I am a. Because being a technological, scientifically oriented person, I want to kind of pick too many holes and want perfectionism and therefore I'm trying to, to point out shortcomings and all that.

[A]

This issue of the tapes has been something that we've talked about throughout our interviews going back to the early days from Friedgard Lodermoser, who was the direct disciple of Sea Juba Ken and talked about her surprise that tapes were being used at all to then having, you know, further conversations with current and former teachers the likes of, you know, Jonathan Crowley or, or Elisha Smith or Bruce Stewart or others that have gone into some of the challenges of maintaining those tapes today. And these are in context in the west and where, you know, Internet is more widely available than it was before to be able to kind of check and research a bit of Goenka's claims in ways that weren't happening before. And also Some of the, you know, as. Even though the language may have been toned down in terms of some of the. The. The. The emphasis on pristine purity and criticism of other techniques, the purity narrative as Bruce Stewart calls it, it's still pretty strong and still kind of ties things, ties the tradition in ways it can't get out of. And so this has been a long standing conversation we've had with many guests on this platform. But I'm curious to hear your thoughts when you're talking about concerns with the discourses. First I want to clarify are you talking about Hindi or English? Are you talking about 10 day or long course or Sadi Patana? And then if you can go into some background as to more specifically what were the concerns that you were raising and what were your suggestions as to how they could be improved?

[B]

Regarding Satipatana, my concern was that out of seven days, three days were lost in background. Only the discussions on Chittaanapashana, Dhamma Prashana were almost non existent. So we need to discuss that very strongly. I now conduct courses of 30 days on Satipatthan Sutra. So VIP TA is the a sense of all teaching of practice. And that needs to be done very carefully, very exhaustively. Then the questions which we had mentioned about. There are some other more fundamental questions which my other senior teachers don't easily agree which I had raised. They were about the teaching of Anatta and the practice of Anatta. I used to periodically ask Venkaji whenever I had opportunity to be with him personally. Venkaji I experience of Anitya is perfectly understood. Seeing thoroughly at that time I felt so. I know now that that was not true. But I could at that time I felt that I've known that thoroughly experientially but I the understanding of Dukkha is also there that even pleasant feelings of Dukkha and so. But Anapa is not even in deep. I mean it is a kind of a. Verbal statement made. We are not able to really investigating why, how on what basis do we say and what is the practice to actually experience it? Because real freedom will lie from there. I can understand that. So you always used to tell me don't worry dear sir, keep on practicing as an develops you don't understand. So I took it for that it must be so. And but as the years passed by I could see that it was not happening at least for me. Then I talked to other senior because I had in contact with most of the senior teachers it was not happening for none of them actually I could see that the whole practice actually, I mean, and that I was. I took quite some time. I could. I could see that only after I designed from there. Then the whole practice is based on a making very strong statement. The whole practice. These are my defilement and this is what I learned from aam's teachings. And paradoxically I was given Ajan's books by teacher in my third or fourth course because I asked him question. He said, you asked too many questions, you study this book. I was doing a 20 day course course and the teacher so kindly, he gave me two books of read them, I think you'll get answered. And I did get answers, but I was so caught up in the practice that I didn't study them too much or didn't really put them into practice as much as I did later. The main point he makes there is that when we practice with a Atabhav these are my defilement, these I have to remove, I have to work hard to get out of this. There's the whole practice is based on sense of self. I have to attain this. First I have to attain stream flow, free flow, then I have to attain dissolution, then I have to work on the heart center, then I have to work on the spine, then I'll get enlightened. This is all of the I is constantly being reinforced in my understanding. Now I would say we are adding it as an asset. Upadi Buddha says upadi properties sad go they are assembling Upadi. So the whole practice is becoming like that. And therefore the sense of self is increasing. And I could see it very clearly that sense of self was increasing in many of my senior teachers. So that was quite a revolution for me. And then of course things happened and I quit the organization. Then when I reflected deeply on what I have practiced and studied some other books, I could see clearly see what is happening, what has been happening with me and what has been happening with most of the senior meditators. If the atava remains, if the sense of self remains preserved. I am an assistant teacher. I am a. A senior assistant teacher. I am a dipti teacher. I am a teacher. I am a center teacher. I am a area teacher. You are portioning duties, you are apportioning more and more flags. You're putting forth more and more flags. You're raising your sense of self constantly by taking them as entities, taking them as achievements. Obviously the progress is in pain, you're stuck. I could feel by the later years that I reached a plateau in my practice. And the plateau was I was not in a position to go beyond and understand the Anata issue at all. And this is in my opinion, a shortcoming. Of course many of my senior friends not agree, but when they contemplate this, they see that there is some merit in what I am saying, which actually is what is saying, not me.

[A]

Well, I want to clarify one part of that because you mentioned the ego that can develop with appointments. And I definitely understand that. I think that's a very human thing across any type of organization and not just spiritual, but communist societies. You see, you see something similar with, you know, initial communist leaders proclaiming to want to have bring up equality. But then, you know, Orwell famously said some people are more equal than others and, and that just. It's a way the human society organizes itself. So I'm. I'm wondering what your solution to that is, because I don't think you're suggesting not to have teacher appointments or not to have positions. But it's something in which the way they're being held. But that's a very human trait. It's. And that's a very hard thing to let go of that. I am, I am this person at this station who has this accomplishment. And so what?

[B]

That is the whole practice, dear. That is the whole practice of Anatta for which I am grateful to Jan tradition, especially from Paramita. That is the whole practice.

[A]

So are you saying the practice wasn't effective enough? That it was. It was what it was saying, what it was promoting was not what people were actually learning through the technique is that I'm trying to understand exactly the

[B]

technique was not able, at least in my case and in case of large number of my friends, able to make them see what Anatta means.

[A]

So you think it was more of a case of the technique than the organization or the culture?

[B]

Yeah, it has become a technique, not Dhamma.

[A]

So when you're talking about shortcomings, to be clear, you're talking specifically here about the shortcomings of the actual technique. This, this pristine pure technique coming from the Buddha that was proclaimed what, what where about the technique, where did it fall short? And not allowing a realization.

[B]

Because the. If you study the UD original teachings of the Bandha, you find Anatta is understood through investigation, through enquiry. You study the Anatta Lakhan Sutta, you study. There is suffering. Suffering should be understood. Now what does it mean to understand suffering? There is second Noble truth says Tanha is a cause of suffering. It should be abandoned. How should it abandoned? Those things are not discussed. Yeah, we are there we do chant 4 into 312 bars dwadasha karam pati vartam. We do that, talk it. But how to do it? What does it mean to understand suffering? Because if you understand suffering, the whole path opens up. And I say it on the basis of my experience understanding. When we talk of Anatta, the issue of investigation is totally missing in the tradition. Any discussion, any thinking, any reflection is seen as a barrier to practice which is not true. Read the discourses of Buddha Siyata Lakhana Sutra which led to the five monks becoming. It's all question, answer, it's all understanding. You study, see all the sutras, see the datva. Any sutta which tells in anatta or vision deals with liberation. A deep amount of investigation, reflection, deep investigation, deep reflection, reflection on the experience and deriving conclusions from that, that is Dhamma pichaya and that nama vichya is going to become into samadhi. So this, this method does help us in getting greater samadhi. But in fact when we conducted the first retreat from Vajanamuro and all the meditators, the 30 people who had assembled, all going to. And they kept on asking him, you are not teaching vipassana. You are not asking us to do body scan. You are not asking us to do this. Eventually he told them that you are actually not practicing vipassana in the true sense of the term. Body scan is not vipassana. When you feel the body, you are feeling dhatus, not vedna. Scratching, chants, moving, heaviness, lightness, vibration, tickling. They are not vedanas, they are manifestation of four elements. Vedana is the affective tone of experience, whether it is pleasant, unpleasant or neutral. So we have a fundamental issue there. And of course you can say that the body, when you see heaviness, you can. Heaviness can be pleasant, heaviness can be unpleasant, heat can be pleasant, heat can be unpleasant. So you have to distinguish between them. You have to distinguish between dhatu, manasigarpapam and vedanakrishna. And how do we really understand anatta unless we put it in our day to day life? Unless we are practice is such that it is effortless effort. You observe the breath and you know while observing the breath that it is not me, I am knowing the breath. It's not a question of saying breath is being known, it actually should be happening that breath is being known. Just as an example, I will tell you how I practice and how I give instructions. We just sit quietly, we keep the whole attention on the body. Kayana Krishna means We keep whole body as a Anammana and look at it from a distance as a zoomed out position. So that we have a faint idea of the body. And whenever we want we can zoom in and get the detailed investigation done whenever we want. But we have a faint idea of the body and we just sit quietly and wait for the breath to arise naturally. And as the breath arises, the breath contacts the body. There is this Kaya Vinya arises and Kaya Vinyana knows the breath. It's not me knowing the breath. I am not putting any effort. Oh come on, not the bed. Don't forget it. Don't be aware, don't miss the breath, nothing like that. It's not me who is observing the breath. Breath is being known by Kaya Vinyana which arises naturally when the breath contacts the body. This is what we study in Madhu Pandika Sutta. That's it. Kaya Vinyana knows, not me. Now this has to be practiced accordingly. If at the end we say no, it is actually birth is being known. You are not knowing the breath, you are just saying it. You are putting all the effort in knowing the breath. There is a issue. There's an issue there in terms of Anapta.

[A]

So it sounds like your concern was going far beyond just expressing possible changes to the discourse and the descriptions itself. It sounds like you were getting at the heart of changes in the actual practice and technique itself. Is that right?

[B]

I didn't, I didn't anticipate this. Frankly, at that time my only humble submission to go was please discuss Anatta. That's all. All this insight has arisen after they resigned and started studying the Buddha's Sutta directly, started interacting with the Thai tradition, studying the teachings, meeting them personally, discussing seeing them, seeing their demeanor, seeing their behavior, seeing how they, how they place themselves, what kind of felicity they bring into life. Amazing. And I can see.

[A]

So it started with a concern for the discourses that you especially Saddiputtana that you wanted to have.

[B]

Yeah, basically Sadiputhana then about the. About Anatta was constantly for many years. I must have requested please explain and give some discourse. Anyway incorporated somewhere. The long courses don't add anything to the 10 day course. They're just expansion of that I did 20 day, 30, 45 day, 60 day, 60 day. There is a minor change. If you see the instructions or of Kasna the Ana Pana Pabam, they not following those instructions, they're following that that is being bought to the notice in 60 day course. While like those four instructions can be followed very simply and you can achieve fantastic results. Now all this is of course my discovery or you could only can say understanding development in last 15 years, 2010 onwards. At that time to Venkaji, my humble request was please discuss Anatha more so that we can feel less me self can reduce to some extent. But that couldn't be because he was busy in the other activities.

[A]

Right? So you're tracking your trajectory. You started with a concern to want to see more discussion of Anatta and discourses and through expressing that, you know, by this point Goenka was becoming much more oriented towards the construction of a. Of a large pagoda and was surrounded by family and and individuals who didn't have the same strong meditation background. And so that. So your request or concern of wanting to have an additional element added to the discourses.

[B]

I still had great British towards him. You see, I still have even now at that time I said okay, we'll find it out. Myself I was willing to go along with him and see if we could do some marginal changes. Slowly and slowly. Once the pagoda was built, I was hoping that things will come back to the normal. But then so many other things happened that it became impossible, became impossible to for me to continue.

[A]

So you initially thought that it could be a gradual change of incrementally being able to discuss and examine and bring this in?

[B]

Yeah, I was hoping because my. Yeah, I had a lot of gratitude and lot of hope that Venkaji will be able to attend to these things because once he is free from this pagoda will test. But at purpose Goda business kept on spiraling in and meanwhile the effect of so many other organizational phenomena started. I mean, you know, it would be probably fair for me to go into details of that because they're pretty sordid. There were difficulties. Yeah, there were difficulties which could have been handled with compassion and empathy.

[A]

This is an organization which still is impacting, you know, thousands upon thousands of lives. And many of those lives don't exactly know what happened upstream from their involvement. And so I'm asking it somewhat out of compassion of is, is there a way to gain a better understanding as to how we got to where we are today so that those that are, are questioning their involvement in the organization, are trying to understand some of the issues they're going through that there could just be wider understanding as to the dynamics that have taken place that have led to, you know, where, where a contemporary meditator would find themselves.

[B]

I'm not aware of what is the situation today because I quit in 2010. But of course I do get feedback from friends and what seems to be. When anybody asks me what is your opinion about the tradition? I say it's very good for a beginner to get introduced to the Buddha's teachings and to get introduced to the practice, to discipline, to learn how to poke us Pakistan and develop experiences of samadhi of various levels. That's very good. But please don't think that it is the ultimate, as I tell them very clearly.

[A]

Did you think it was the ultimate during the height of your involvement?

[B]

Yeah, I got that impression, yeah.

[A]

Was that hard to come out of?

[B]

It happened. That coming out happened over so many years, you know, so it had become hard. It happened over many years. When I saw the. Because I was very at the top of the organizational ladder, I was almost at the top of the organizational ladder. So everything, all the happenings were happening around me or with me or with friends. So I could see that whatever is happening, one of the reasons of it is that Anatta is not being given importance, frankly. I am telling you very frankly, yeah, if Anatta was given importance, even intellectually important, and explained intellectually, do this again and again. Try to practice, Try to practice. Don't identify with your degrees, don't identify with your positions. Don't see that this is an obstruction. Buddha's teaching is samba, sankara, samto, sambha, padi, patani, saga, tanakayog, sweet. Focus on that. Don't create a tana out of I want to become a senior teacher or becoming a member of this or member of that. And to me it was quite clear that I had joined it primarily for my spiritual evolution and secondary. When I agreed to be a teacher to help in spreading the Dhammain and to see that whatever I could to improve upon the things, I will do that as I offering gratitude to my teacher. And I tried to do that to the best of my abilities.

[A]

So initially you simply just wanted Anata to be more a part of the discourses and understanding. But then eventually after you left the organization, then you started to go beyond mere discourses and start to feel that there was actually a shortcoming of the technique itself in not addressing not to adequately, is that correct?

[B]

That's right. Yeah. I actually, because I had studied Thai tradition also and some other also, I just stopped all of that. I said I'll go primarily to the teachings of the Buddha. So I studied Pali for one year at their university. After taking voluntary retirement from IIT at the age of 61, I went to the college to study Pali for one year and then I studied the original suttas both in Pali and the Bhikkhuvodi translations and then I interacted with Bhikkhuodi whenever I had difficulty studied Abhidhamma to make sure about some the of. Of the things which are not answered, which are the queries asked in Vedanta, how does Buddhism answer them? So I tried to go to the primary source of the teachings and see that I follow them rather than following tradition A, B, C, D, E. And that actually helped me to see where I could get what different traditions give different inputs Certainly.

[A]

And you were so close to Goenka for so many years. I'm really curious because you mentioned at 61 you then go into studying early Buddhist teachings and Pali and Abhidhamma and so much else. When you were with Goenkaji during all of those years to what degree did he encourage or discourage that kind of independent study in those matters to what degree did you ask him about wanting to study it or having an interest? What were his thoughts about that study aspect?

[B]

He didn't, he didn't encourage because he felt that his teaching was sufficient for liberation and any excessive study is an intellectual level pastime. He used to call it intellectual gymnastics.

[A]

Well but I want to clarify you're not talking about excess study, you're talking about study of any form. There's a difference between excess study and simply.

[B]

Yeah, he felt that, that for most of us the instructions which he had given in 10 day, 20 day, 30 day courses they're sufficient for us but if you want to study. He didn't say that don't study but he didn't encourage it. He didn't say don't study or something. I mean nobody can prevent anybody from studying but he didn't say that it is really important for you to study so that you can understand better at I don't think actually the way discourses in Hindi are there. They seem to suggest to the person that why do you have to waste time and study? You have studied enough in Indian people just study and study and don't do any practice which may be true to some extent but as a result most of the Persona meditators at least in India won't even know know what is an okay. Can you believe it? They wouldn't have studied primary Nama Chakrabotan, Sutta Lakan Sutta, Aditya Sutta or some of the prominent Sutas Saka or Sat Bhutana or others Satan. Of course they record retreat the seven day course Is there, which is highly inadequate, I would say. There it is. It is based on the assumption that people in our country have given too much time to study and not to practice. Right?

[A]

Right.

[B]

On that basis, that that thought process was taken to the extreme.

[A]

And so at the time when, because you you reference how at your height of practice, you really did think it was the ultimate. And so I imagine at that time, believing it was the ultimate have been at the top of the organization, as you say, having Goenkaji explicitly expressing there was no real need to study beyond what he was saying. I suppose you didn't really feel, or I should ask you, did you feel an interest in wanting to pursue your own study at that time, as you did when you were 61 years old? Or was that really not just. Was that off your radar and not of interest then?

[B]

See, I was in active job iit professorship is extremely busy person. And as I told you, I was given two books of Ajahn Sumedo by a senior teacher of the Persona himself. So I did study them. Then I got another book. When I used to conduct courses, I used to keep that book, Kabaja Vedu and during the break time study them and mark out some beautiful sentences which inspired. So I did that. Only that much more than that was not possible because whatever vacation period was there, I I was either meditating or conducting a course. So there was just no time for me to study too much other than the small amount which I could manage in this manner. But considering the seeing the kind of changes which are happening in the organization, the overall environment, I could see that something is amiss. And by the time I resigned, I could see that what was a miss and that what was the deficiency left in me and therefore and also in everybody else as a result to of the practice in this manner, so intensely practicing the technique, benefiting from it, but missing the issue of liberation.

[A]

And you believe that it was Anatta that was that missing link between the practice of the technique and the goal of liberation? Is that right?

[B]

Yeah, certainly, I believe. And I, I, I feel it sincerely even now. And I tell my friends, because large number of my old friends do come and consult me because they thought at that time, they used to think I was a trainer of their trainer and all that. But whatever friendship or whatever they think about me, they do come and consult me and what are you doing? And what is different? And I tell them now that we have set up a monastery, many of the old friends have come to monastery. Also met a person who is highly accomplished In Thailand believed to be an Aranth. So they can see what it means. They can see what it means to be an accomplished master.

[A]

And you mentioned that the key to resolving this gap for you came in the form of Ajahn Sumedo. This is the American monk who's the disciple of Ajahn Chah. So what was it about Ajahn Sumedo's presentation or technique or influence that actually,

[B]

because he was the only representative who wrote in English.

[A]

But what did he offer? What was it that he was able to resolve in you?

[B]

This issue of Anatta was very clearly resolved. Yeah. He says the practice should be in according to the teaching. You know, when you say Dhamma, Dhamma Patipada, it means our practice should be in accordance with the teaching. So our practice should be in accordance with an du. We can't throw it out and practice with Ata and then say, okay, now we'll work on removing Ata. That won't work like that. So the manner in which we practice, we should try to integrate this understanding of impersonality in the process of practice itself. Practice can't be divorced from, you know, this is beautiful word. One of the characteristics of Sutapanna. Buddha points out in one of the discourses, practicing Dhamma in accordance with the Dhamma. This is a very simple ways, you know, which I have written quoted in my mission also that if you, if you take the things personally, this is my anger, this is my lust, this is my fear, this my anxiety then. And that by removing this, I will become enlightened. There's no one who is become enlightened. Enlightenment means that sense of I is gone. There's no one who actually gets enlightened. You have to be free. The more you reduce the sense of self, more free you become automatically. You don't have to worry about freedom. Because the ultimate but bondage is sense of self. So to the extent you drop it, to the extent you let go of it, you're free. You let the teaching of Ajanjana. You let go a little, you are free a little. Let go more, you are free more let go everything, you completely free. Very simple ways of understanding things. Very powerful. If you have the ability to investigate and figure out what is happening within me. For teachers and is not just a teaching, it is practice. You have to practice it and figure out where exactly is happening. Where exactly is the craving arising? Where exactly is the intention to move arising from feeling to craving? There are steps. If you study the sutas, you find those steps. It's not that feeling immediately jumps to craving. Not always. So we have to study the teachings properly. And then you know where you can practice in accordance with the Dhamma. And that freedom arises naturally. You don't have to worry about it. You don't have to make a project out of it. Because as long as the sense of self remains, what happens in the retreat? Typically craving and aversion get reduced because we forbear. You know, we face unpleasant feelings. We face pleasant feelings and we try to maintain equanimity. So craving aversion reduce at the end of the retreat. But sense of self is there, is strengthened. You go home and tell it people. You don't meditate, that's why you're suffering. See, look at me. I meditate. I'm such a good person. You may not say it in so many words, but you mean it in certain way. And within one month, all that is gone. Sense of self has created more and more anger, more and more craving, more and more craving. Mind is again defiled. And then you again want, okay, let me go to the next retreat. I should. This household voice is useless. I should find a time to go to the next retreat. So then plan so that I can go to the next retreat. So from one retreat to another retreat to another retreat, that's what I've seen happening. I in fact pointed out because I was area teacher, I had to sign people's applications for long course. I will tell them. Why are you going after every three months? Said? Because three months is the minimum period. Maximum. We have to stay. Said. But why can't you work in at home? At home there is so much of trouble, so much of unpro. That is is the practice. Unpleasantness in the home is the practice. This is the key thing which you have to be taught. Handling unpleasantness in the home, seeing the occurisha Samutva. Seeing how the sense of self is creating problems and abdicating it, letting go of it. That is the practice. And that's what Ajahn Chah teaches. Everything teaches us life is a practice school education program. Not that you have to go to retreats and retreats every time. Of course you can go should go to sharpen the ax. But if you are not clear about the theory, what do you have to do? It's not that you have to every time sit and observe the body and see sensations. And then only you'll be free. You will get over the unpleasant situation. It's not like that. Understanding is the key thing. Samadhi is the key thing. So these aspects are not emphasized enough. They are talked of. It's not. They're not talked of. Especially for senior courses or long courses. This should be the thing what should be discussed so that people really, at least those who come for long courses, they're the ones who are interested they should get an opportunity to go beyond the very simple body scan.

[A]

And so do you think that this shortcoming was something that Goa himself was not aware of and if that's the case, why do you think that was something that was being missed?

[B]

I really don't know. Answered that question probably as he told told me that if you continue to practice properly and anitya then it will automatically give rise to Natta. Maybe, maybe I didn't practice properly. According to him, I don't know. But I don't see any way 15 years hence I don't see any way just feeling the bodily sensations one can really get into reduce the sense of sight. I don't see how it will happen and I have not seen it happen There a good foundation. Very good foundation. Yeah, very good foundation. Provided a very solid foundation. Adishana working earnestly handling developing kti. You know so much pains we faced developing Ki experiencing the Sankarupeka. I had very used to have very tough courses. One part of the body burning, another part of the body cooling down. So that was very good. I mean to that extent very good. I know minutes but of course it could have been I mean things happen at the right time I believe so probably I was not ready for that at that time maybe I feel whatever I could share I shared candidly. Truthfully of course keeping with the fact that I am old now and my memory is everything is not our memory is also conditions you know. But I hope it will be of some use to somebody. Foreign.

[A]

Thank you for joining us for this meaningful conversation. At Insight Myanmar Podcast we aim to create a space that embodies the quality of generosity, or donna as it is known in Pali, the language of the Buddha. Donna refers to the practice of giving freely with a heart of compassion. On our side we offer these podcast conversations conversations without any barrier or paywall. Modeling our work on the Buddhist principle that compassionate giving benefits both the giver and the one who receives the gift. But while these conversations are and will continue to be offered freely, there are nonetheless costs associated with the production. So if you found these conversations of value, we invite you to consider supporting our work. Visit insight myanmar.org SL donation to learn more about how you can contribute today. Thank you for your generosity your volition and your attention.

[B]

Not. We got a visa. Oba yarana diana yaranaya da yarana but I've got yara naming.