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Insights Unlocked
A magician's take on message testing and marketing clarity
00:35:34
Learn how magician-turned-marketer Jimi Gibson uses empathy, clarity, and message testing to craft unforgettable customer experiences.
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- [00:02]
Nathan Isaacs
Welcome back to the Insights Unlocked podcast. In this episode, I'm joined by Jimmy Gibson, vice president of brand communication at Thrive Agency and a magician who shares how his unique journey from the stage to the strategy room shaped his approach to branding, messaging, and customer experience. We dig into how empathy, clarity, and a little showmanship can turn good messaging into unforgettable experiences. Enjoy the show.
- [00:30]
Podcast Announcer
Welcome to Insights Unlocked, an original podcast from User Testing, where we bring you candid conversations and stories with the thinkers, doers and builders behind some of the most successful digital products and experiences in the world, from concept to execution.
- [00:49]
Nathan Isaacs
Welcome to the Insights Unlocked podcast. I'm Nathan Isaacs, senior manager for content production and user testing, and our guest today is Jimmy Gibson. Jimmy is the vice president of brand communication at Thrive agency. He's a TEDx speaker, Forbes contributor, and messaging strategist with a background that's part marketing, part magic, literally. He spent years helping brands move from confusion to clarity. Welcome to the show, Jimmy.
- [01:14]
Jimmy Gibson
Hey, Nathan. Glad to be here. Looking forward to our conversation.
- [01:17]
Nathan Isaacs
Jimmy, you've had one of the more unique journeys in branding and marketing, starting out as a professional magician and now helping companies create messaging that sticks. Can you share a bit about that path and how it shaped your approach to customer experience today?
- [01:32]
Jimmy Gibson
Yeah, fair warning. It's a little bit of a zigzaggy path. I got a magic kit when I was 6 years old and just was fascinated. I don't know whether it was because it was a cool thing to tinker with, but I had some reason to perform for my relatives. My parents would have a yard sale and I would sell tickets for 25 cents and pull the people from the yard sale. Over in high school, was approached by a guy at an ad agency that I knew through a mutual friend, and they needed a promotional performer to help promote an international brand. And I said, sure. And so through that experience, which lasted 16 years, I learned about business and how something that I loved as a hobby could turn into something profitable. And I guess hanging out at the advertising agency that was sort of at the tail end of those Mad Men days. I just thought that was almost like a backstage at a magic show. Right. And all these creative people were thinking up these cool things to help businesses do better. And that's what I studied in school and started working at agencies right out of school, but also kept performing. I've performed a corporate show at the MGM in Las Vegas. I produced theme park shows. I've had my own theater. Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. We were chatting a little bit about that before the show started. But all the while I was working at agencies, helping craft messaging for mom and Pops and Fortune 500 companies. And I guess I always had this lens of, you know, all businesses, show business, and there's this element of doing things backstage and presenting it to a prospect or a customer. And it's just, you know, sort of the lens I see the world and marketing through. So that's a quick flyby there.
- [03:22]
Nathan Isaacs
The. Your background in magic and stage performance gives you a unique lens on audience engagement. How can marketing and UX and CX leaders bring that same level of intentional, human centered performance into digital experiences?
- [03:38]
Jimmy Gibson
Yeah, I would say it comes from some training I did with a Broadway director in Montreal. I was lucky enough to be included with about eight other magicians. And, you know, we just kind of hung out at this guy's chalet he'd produced. He had been in the original cast of Annie and was the director of 22 Broadway productions, but he was also a magician and he sort of had a heart for helping magicians connect with their audience. And so you were supposed to bring two and a half minutes of your act, and each magician got a segment during the week, and he critiqued you for two and a half hours on two and a half minutes. And it was brutal. Like, I'm not gonna lie, it was humbling. You're in front of peers that you have known in the magic community and he's just tearing you to shreds. All in good love, right? And so what that taught me was why was he spending two and a half hours on two and a half minutes? Because magic isn't real. Sorry to bust the bubble of the audience here, but what we're trying to do as a magician is we're trying to put something that goes against the physical world, right, and make the audience believe that something is magic. And it has to do with the words that you use, the way your body turns, the tilt of your hand. But it's all from the audience's perspective, right? And so we have to think, what does the audience see? What do they feel? Where does their attention need to go next? It's not about the trick, it's about the experience. And so I think when we think about UX and we as marketers and leaders, we need to have that mindset that the digital experience is not from the company's point of view, it's from the customer's point of view. And a great performance on stage is always audience first. I remember I was in a show that had 22 cast members. We had 13 major illusions. We made a corvette disappear. I vanished the entire audience, excuse me. And I did the show five days a week. And there was an understudy that gave me a break when I needed a break. And so I said, hey, I think I'd like to see the show from the audience's perspective this time. And I have no musical abilities. There was a thousand cues that I had to hit. I had to actually count in my head when I heard a little jingle in the music. And I would go, 1, 1,000, 2, 1,000. And I would have to do something with my hand. And. And so when I sat there and watched that show from the audience's perspective, I suddenly understood. When I moved my hand, a piece of scenery came in. When I presented my arm in a different way, a new cast member. And that was very eye opening to me because what I was just doing as a cue that was in the script that the director was telling me to do, actually had meaning and logic behind it. And I performed the rest of those shows in a completely different way because my eyes were opened as to what the audience was seeing. So I think those are all lessons you have to have empathy. You have to put yourself. You know, they say walk. If you could walk a mile in my shoes, well, go walk a mile in your customer's shoes. You know, they say to be a good architect, work construction over the summer because you're going to understand how a building is built. So I would say those are a lot of the lessons that I've learned and how that applies to my thinking when it comes to. Goes into a web design, a landing page design, email sequence or whatever the case may be.
- [07:06]
Nathan Isaacs
The. Well, that brings up two points there. What, what amazing experiences. Those both were. The, that two and a half minutes tear down and then sitting in the audience and, and seeing it from their perspective. And I think both of those kind of, you know, and I, and for me it was, you know, I was in the military, I was on a submarine, left, thought I was going to become a journalist, had that first article that I spent so much time writing and an editor tore it all up with a lot of red marks and all this kind of stuff. And I still think about like, don't get tied to your writing. It's, it's, it's the message you're trying to communicate to your audience. And, and you have to have that, you have to have that sort of humbling experience to just understand that it's, that's not really about you it's about the audience. But you were talking about landing pages there, and we briefly. We didn't go enough into it. Can you just give me a quick idea of what Thrive Agency is and does and. And where are you guys based and who you serve and all that kind of stuff?
- [08:11]
Jimmy Gibson
Oh, sure. Thanks, Nathan. So Thrive Agency is based out of Arlington, Texas. I sit in Charleston, South Carolina. A lot of our folks are remote, which is wonderful. That's the world we live in. Matt Bowman started the company 20 years ago as a website company, website development company. And so he was all happy when a website launched, but then quickly after that, he realized we got to drive some traffic to that website. And so the magic of SEO 20 years ago is much different than it is right now, especially with AI disrupting everything. But over the years, there was a big push after 2016 to grow because Matt had a heart to help as many business owners navigate the world of the Internet as much as he could. So our. We don't spec, you know, we don't niche down to any specific industry or vertical. We work with a lot of different ones. We certainly have some folks and some industries that come back time and time and again and seek us out because we get very good results. But, yeah, I would say we have over a thousand active clients. We have about 175 team members, and it's just a joy to be part of something that sometimes there's a lot of misinformation out there. We just like to tell it like it is and make sure people understand we want to be good stewards of their money. We have a great culture. We, you know, don't. We actually discourage overtime. We count giving and volunteering as a key metric. And so, yeah, it's just a really nice, unique place to. To be part of. Not typical in the agency environment, for sure.
- [09:58]
Nathan Isaacs
Oh, definitely not. Well, that's great. That's such a great story there. The. I was thinking, going back into you were you mentioned the magic, and I think magic's going to be themed throughout our interview. You've created the mag Magic Script to help brands connect emotionally. How have you seen customer feedback enhance or even rewrite that script in ways you didn't expect?
- [10:24]
Jimmy Gibson
Yeah. So somebody asked me a couple of years ago, like, it seems like you talk about magic a lot. Does it ever, you know, bleed over into your marketing? I said, yeah, I think so. And they challenged me to sort of reverse engineer what that was about. And I would say we talked about that training experience that I had in Montreal. Really if you look at a magic trick, the magician walks out on stage, the first thing he wants to do or he or she wants to do is get connection with the audience so that they feel like it's going to be a fun experience. And, you know, that's part grabbing attention, but part understanding who's in your audience. Right. And so who's your crowd? Do you know the room? Can you read the room? That type of thing. And so that connection point actually is a release of oxytocin in the brain, and that can be on stage, that can be in a personal connection at a networking event, that can be again, through a landing page. And that oxytocin is a neurotransmitter that makes you feel like, wow, this is a good conversation we're having. I like this person. Let me see where this is going to go. Right, so now you've basically opened up the permission to put in a little bit of mystery, intrigue, curiosity. And so the magician may have a deck of cards in their hand, and they say, you. What's your name? Oh, Nathan. Nathan, glad you could make it. I know you traveled a long way to be at the show today. I want you to think about a playing card. And so the people around Nathan are going, oh, wow. Usually they get somebody to pick a card there, he's just going to think of one. That's crazy. So they lean in a little bit. So we talk about being on the edge of your seat. Why? Because there's enough curiosity that you want to know what happens next. Right. And that's actually a release of dopamine and dopamine. We've heard about addiction to social media. It's not actually an addiction to social media. It's the expectation of a reward. So when you post something on social media, you want a. Like a share a comment. The same thing happens when you open up that curiosity in a conversation. So if you're talking about a landing page, first paragraph should be about identifying who your target market is, what their pain is, are they seeking some kind of pleasure? You want that audience to go, hey, this person knows me. They know what I'm going through. Right. So now we've given permission to take it a little bit further. You need something to take them to the next paragraph. And so in the magic trick, we can go on with all sorts of, you know, activating curiosity, but at some point, the audience is going to get tired and they're going to go, okay, I only have so much stamina for not having closure, so I've got to get to the conversion or the close. So we've started with connection, we've activated Curiosity. Now we need to get to conversion. And so the conversion is. I'm going to tell Nathan what this card is that he's just been thinking of. And so Nathan, Nathan reels back in his chair and he's like, oh my gosh, how did you do that? And the audience goes, that's amazing. And so that's a release of serotonin. That's everything's right with the world. This all makes sense. Was bought in with the Curiosity and now it's come to this grand finale. Right. And so that's the same thing that you want to have happen on that landing page. And so that's a long setup to say that we were working with a B2B hard surface distributor, basically hard materials for countertops. Some of them were natural, some of them were engineered. And most of their marketing material was around the density of the material, the tensile strength, the microns of, you know, blah, blah, blah. And what happens is if you're not technically minded, you don't care, really. Especially because their marketing strategy was to go to the consumer, have that consumer go to their local big box store and ask for that particular type of material, which is kind of what the pharmaceuticals companies do, right? Ask your doctor about this. And so then that would drive orders from a B2B perspective. Well, we consulted with them and told them, you know, if you're a B2B buyer and a distributor, you want to make sure the product is well made, but that's not what the consumer wants. A kitchen countertop is a transformation of the home. That's really the heart of the home. And they're not buying the countertop, they're buying their friends being able to come over and enjoy dinner, the kids being able to do their homework on the kitchen counter, and they feel, okay, that it's not going to get messed up. Tough conversations over a late night snack between mom and dad, making family decisions, those types of things. And so we actually created a vocabulary that elicited some of these responses so that the copywriters, the social media folks, the folks writing blogs for that company, had this list of magic words, if you will, that would activate these various parts of the brain to make sure that conversation was happening and controlling that in the way. Not manipulative, right? It's understanding what the needs of that company are and how they're going to connect with the client. And yeah, I would say that's what excites me every day is just being able to help businesses put themselves in the mind of the consumer instead of me, me, me. Look at how great we are. Here's all of our features. You know, we've heard sell. You don't sell features, you sell the benefit. But when it comes down to it, like, what does that exactly mean? And so maybe that gives a better example in, in true life.
- [16:14]
Nathan Isaacs
Well, and, and all that, you can't do. I mean, you can't even have an ll, an LLM do that. Right. You have to really slow down, understand your audience to understand what those magic words are. Right. And then, and then you can go fast. You have to, you know, and this is my, my CMO says this to us a lot, which is, you know, let's slow down so we can go fast. Let's really address the problem here or find how the process needs to be built so we can speed it up. You've worked with a wide range of brands on refining their messaging. How do you see message testing, especially techniques like preference testing or first impression feedback, changing the way that brands approach clarity and resonance? From day one.
- [17:06]
Jimmy Gibson
Yeah, so when I used to perform magic professionally, the only way to know if a trick really worked is to test it in front of a live audience. Like, you could sit there in your living room, stand in front of a mirror, rehearse it to death. But until you saw how people reacted, like where they leaned in, did they gasp? Did they look at the right hand? You wanted to look confused. You don't really know if it's landing or not. And so that comes with repetition. They call it flight time. And, you know, I think the same thing happens in business. There's a book by Robert McKee called Story Nomics. If you read anything by Donald Miller, the story brand, it actually came from some training that he did with Robert McKee when they were producing the movie Blue Light Jazz. And part of the framework that Robert McKee talks about is action, first reaction, second action, second reaction. And so what does that mean? That means if somebody's going to interact with your brand, they may respond to a headline. Well, how are they going to respond? What do you want them to do? Are they going to click a button? Are they going to fill out a form? Are they going to call you on the phone? Then what is the second reaction or the second action? So first, first action, first reaction, second action, second reaction. If they call you on the phone and nobody picks up the phone, their second reaction may be, I'm not leaving a message. I'm hanging up. Right. If they click a button and it doesn't work, what are they going to do? They're going to go to your competitor. If they see an ad and they click through the ad and it goes to a landing page, that's a mismatch from the ad they just saw, they're going to go away. Right. And so I think it goes into that forensic analysis of taking a 2 and a half minute performance and critiquing it for 2 and a half hours. You have to be hyper focused on do your forms work, what are you expecting to do when we talk about having clarity? I have a little five finger method that I talk about in the pointy finger is for every message that you're trying to communicate, you should direct that at one audience. You should solve one big problem. You should ask for one thing of them and you should have one call to action. Because if you, no matter how much you think somebody needs it, they don't. They get confused. They're not in your world. You have to keep that conversation very focused. You know, a website is nonlinear. People can click wherever they want. You know, again, if we're starting at the top, where most people start, your goal is to get them to the point where they're convinced. Do they have to get all the way down to the bottom of the page before you allow them to click? No. You should have multiple areas where if they're okay, they can immediately go to contact you. And so I would say there's plenty of platforms that you can do a B testing. If you have a sales team, they can be testing language in front of a customer and see if their eyebrows raise. Do they ask a follow up question that can start to refine your messaging. Do you have somebody that answers the phone in a certain way and people always go, what? I misunderstood you. What did you just say? Is the phrasing too complicated? So again, you can have people from all departments sit down and go, all right, let's map out this customer journey. Let's figure out where we're losing people and let's figure out why we're losing them. And I mean, it's not easy. If it were easy, everybody be doing it. But if you really want to dig into this, there's lots of clues that can surface that you can address and ways to measure them.
- [20:58]
Nathan Isaacs
No, I agree, I agree. You were, you mentioned. We were talking before we started recording and we were talking about you and your background in strategy and, and when I was in MBA school, we talked about that we, we called it the first thirds and fifths. And the idea of like you're, or you introduce a product to a market, then you're going to have competition that's there, that's the response. Right. And then what's your, what's your next move, what's your third move? And, and keep thinking about it that way as. But anyway, it was always something that we, we thought about because, you know, anyway.
- [21:39]
Jimmy Gibson
Well, there's terms in magic called multiple outs and audience management. And so if you call a volunteer up on stage, you don't know what they're going to do. You hope you pick somebody that's going to behave in the way that you want, but if you see them looking or moving in a direction, you have to, you have to be in control if you want this experience for the rest of the audience to turn out in a positive way. Right. And so you have to think through what could go wrong and what am I going to do if they do this? What am I going to do if they do that? And you have to have multiple ways to save the trick. The same thing. Like if you're looking to increase your conversion rate, you've got to know what are the options that somebody has and how are you going to retain them? Are you going to put a pop up if they try to exit the page? How effective is that pop up? You know, da da, da, da, da. On and on and on. So anyway, just a little bit of a sideline there.
- [22:34]
Nathan Isaacs
No, no. Oh, I, I hadn't really thought about that because I'm sure with magicians it's a lot like it is for comedians. You're going to have the heckler, right? Someone trying to show you up on stage in some sort of way. So you have to be able to adapt and overcome into that sort of situation.
- [22:54]
Jimmy Gibson
Right? Yeah. And you have to know how to address those people. If you have a rude comeback, you're going to lose the audience. Why are they saying that? Is there some way that you can defuse that situation? You certainly don't want to bring them up on stage and give them the spotlight. You know, we talk about trolls in social media. What do you do with a troll? Do you ban them from your site? Do you answer them? Do you take the conversation offline? Do you answer them in public? All of these strategies are different for every brand. And you have to figure out what are you going to do to make sure that you keep that relationship with your customers and future customers.
- [23:35]
Nathan Isaacs
Yeah, keep the main thing, the main thing You've championed the idea of clear over clever. And we kind of talking about this a little bit. How do you balance clarity with emotional resonance, especially when the goal is to create experiences and people will remember?
- [23:52]
Jimmy Gibson
Yeah. So I'm going to give you a real cheesy pickup line. I'm not trying to pick you up, Nathan. My wife and I've been married for 20 years, but we've all heard these. You must be tired because you've been running through my mind all day. Now that might work with somebody, but it probably is not going to work 98% of the time. What if we reframe that to hey, would you like to go to dinner with me Friday night? It's specific, it's confident, it shows intent. It's easy to say yes or no to. Most brands are out there throwing out cheesy pickup lines, trying to be clever and cliche. It's loaded with jargon and puns. And what does the audience really, what is your audience or what does your customer audience really want? They want a real ask, they want a real benefit, they want a real reason to say yes. Right. They don't want to have these verbal gymnastics going in through their head. There's a thing called cognitive load. And depending on the situation with the person you're trying to talk to, especially like we deal with a lot of home services businesses, people's roof is got a hole in it, the toilet's clogged, you know, the air conditioning's broke and it's 100 degrees outside in Charleston, those people are frantic to find somebody. If you try to be cute and clever, that cognitive load, they don't have the ability to try to figure out what you're talking about. They want to know that you're going to be there within an hour and they're going to, you're going to fix it without an emergency charge. Right. And so how are you going to talk to them about that? Following that three section framework, you land on a landing page, you know it's 100 degrees outside, you know that seasonality is, is part of your business. You can predict that when the seasons turn and people haven't turned their air conditioning on, especially in Charleston around March and April, you, most of your calls are going to be for people to come get their air conditioning tuned up. So what should you put seasonality on your landing page? You should say, hey, guess what? Summer's on its way last year. You don't want to be stuck with that broken air conditioning and that heat cranks up to 100 degrees in April. We've got a special tune up for $99. But what if you could guarantee that your air and heat doesn't break for the rest of the year? Well, what have I done? I've just acknowledged the fact that I understand them. I've opened up some intrigue, right, to say what? Okay, I can pay $99, but what's this whole thing about? You can guarantee your air conditioners or heat is not going to break the rest of the year. What? Schedule an appointment and we'll come do an evaluation. Okay, there's the conversion, there's the call to action. There's how I'm going to complete that open loop or that story that I've opened up. And so, you know, I think, again, put yourself in the state of the audience. You know, the balance comes from starting with clarity, making sure the message is instantly understood. And that emotion, like, that's just plain simple language. That's, that's not saying a bunch of jargon. You know, we talked about the hard service company, the distributor. So what's the difference between elevated home esthetics via engineered surfaces, Snooze a rama? It's, we help you feel proud of your home again. That's what you want. You want to be okay to invite the neighbors over for a drink because you love your kitchen. You don't want to have excuses and go, no, maybe we go to the place down the street because you're embarrassed, right? That's an emotional thing said in plain language. So again, doesn't have to be complicated. And there's a lot of emotion in a simple phrase like I love you. Right. How are you going to say it any differently? Those are simple words. People know what that means. So.
- [27:58]
Nathan Isaacs
No, I think you have a, a good point. And maybe Weaving should have asked this question earlier because I think we, we kind of talked about the answer earlier in the sense of like, if you understand your audience, then you don't need all the other fluff, right? If you, if you are the H Vac guy and you understand in the spring, people are worried about, they don't want their thing to break because nobody wants to go to sleep in, in a hot home. And, and if you understand that you don't need to worry, all this other stuff, you don't need to show all your credentials. You can just get right to the point. You're here on this website because you don't want to sleep another hot night. And for me, that's worth a hundred bucks. It would Be worth even twice 300 bucks to make sure that my family slept through the night and I didn't have kids, you know, being all grouchy the next day. The.
- [29:02]
Jimmy Gibson
That's the dad math.
- [29:03]
Nathan Isaacs
Yeah, yeah, exactly. It is exactly the dad map. There's a lot of money I'm willing to spend to keep my kids quiet. That's why we call. That's what's called summer camp.
- [29:16]
Jimmy Gibson
Yeah.
- [29:19]
Nathan Isaacs
From. From your vantage point, you know, across. And you've mentioned Thrive works across all sorts of industries. Where do you see the biggest opportunities for brands to rethink their messaging? Through the lens of empathy, insight and clarity. And like, who's getting it right or who's overdue for a shakeup.
- [29:38]
Jimmy Gibson
Yeah, good point. We don't work with them. I would love to, but we purchase things from Chewy. And I've talked with a number of different people that know the brand Chewy. That is basically pet supplies. It's an e commerce company. Their customer service is insane. We had a pet pass away a couple of years ago. We had bought some things. They sent a condolence card. They refunded the things that we had recently purchased for that pet. They send birthday cards to our current puppies, which is amazing. They throw in random treats. They know the puppies names. So if you talk about, you know, pets are like kids to many, many people. They're part of the family. So that is their approach to dealing with a family member. Just like you would if you really cared about them. There's a book that I. I'm kind of a book nerd. And at Thrive, I recommend a book during our company meeting. And one of them that I recommended last year was Unreasonable Hospitality by Will Godot. And that was really taking hospitality mainly in the restaurant industry. And how can you approach that? And it's a great story. I won't give away all the stuff, but, you know, talking about H Vac, Interesting. We use that as an example earlier. You know, client we work with, they got a bad review online. Somebody was not happy with the work that they did. And so instead of just ignoring it, the president of the company responded and said that they wanted to come visit them with the tech who was part of that. Not to kind of call out the tech, but just wanted, you know, he was a new employee, wanted to make sure everything was right. Well, it turns out that the situation had nothing to do with this company. It was bad workmanship from a previous vendor, which was the reason why they called this company. Right. And so they fixed the other person's problem, didn't charge them for it and said, we're so sorry, we want you to be a customer. So like, oh my gosh, this person, what story do you think they're going to tell? The owner of the company showed up, he explained what the problem was. It wasn't even their problem, but they fixed it. You think that company is going to get referrals? Do you think that person is going to go to any other company as long as they continue to satisfy the needs of what that homeowner is wanting out of that company? I mean, yeah, that took some effort, but golly, the, the, the, the value of that in long term brand strength and referral strength. Like, you know, people nowadays, there's a Facebook group for every neighborhood in the U.S. what do you think that person is going to do if somebody says, I'm looking for somebody to fix my air conditioner? Who you think they're going to recommend? They may proactively go out there and post. You're not going to believe this. They may have taken, taken a picture with that owner, right? Like that's just cool, that's all.
- [32:54]
Nathan Isaacs
It's goes back to the dad math, right? I don't want to spend more. And if you, if you did something for like that for me, I would be a loyal customer for 10, 15, 20 years, whatever it might be. And then on our block we have the mom text line, right? So it's you know, 10 or 15 moms and they just like, you know, who's, who knew, who knows, an HC guy who knows this and bam. It gets shared out quickly. Jimmy, thank you so much for being on the show. I really enjoyed our conversation. How does someone learn more about you, your thought leadership and the work you and the team are doing over at Thrive Agency.
- [33:36]
Jimmy Gibson
Yeah, thanks Nathan. It was a lot of fun. Thanks for having me on. I hang out on LinkedIn a lot. I made a profit. Promised I would do a video every day, Monday through Friday this year I think I'm up to 137 videos. I should have done the social media math before I made that challenge to myself. Yeah, just DM me. Be happy to have a chat with anybody who wants to talk about, you know, anything we covered on the show or anything else related to storytelling and Marketing. Thrive Agency.com. go there. If you have some trouble with your digital marketing, be glad to chat with you about that. I write an article on our blog every month which is accompanied by a 20 minute video about something related to marketing or digital marketing. Or, you know, whatever the case may be. So. And again, happy to have a chat with somebody about any concerns or provide a second opinion if somebody's thinking about something that doesn't quite look right with their marketing.
- [34:29]
Nathan Isaacs
So I should have already known this. I apologize for not knowing about the daily videos there. I just made a video. I was like, oh, I'm so proud of myself. And. And it's like the second one I've done in all year and you're doing one every day. Oh my goodness. Jimmy, again, thank you so much for being on the show. I want all the things that we mentioned in the show in the interview will be in the show notes. And so take a look at that and I will talk with you soon.
- [35:00]
Jimmy Gibson
Great. Thanks, Nathan.
- [35:02]
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