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Insights Unlocked
From Velcro to glue: Designing workplace connections that stick with Stephen Baer
00:36:08
Rethink employee engagement strategy and its impact on customer experience. Stephen Baer shares how belonging drives loyalty, performance, and long-term growth.
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- [00:02]
Nathan Isaacs
Welcome back to Insights Unlocked. In this episode, I'm joined by Steven Baer, author of the book Stickology, to explore why engagement isn't just a nice to have. It's the foundation of great employee and customer experiences. We dig into what most companies get wrong, how to spot early signs of disengagement, and what it takes to build real, lasting connections. Enjoy the show.
- [00:25]
Podcast Host / User Testing Announcer
Welcome to Insights Unlocked, an original podcast from User Testing, where we bring you candid conversations and stories with the thinkers, doers and builders behind some of the most successful digital products and experiences in the world, from concept to execution.
- [00:45]
Nathan Isaacs
Welcome to the Insights Unlocked podcast. I'm Nathan Isaacs, principal Content Marketing manager for User Testing and our guest today is Steven Baer. Stephen is the author of how to Build Unbreakable Connections with Employees and Customers for Life. With more than 30 years of experience spanning gaming, corporate leadership, and behavioral science, he helps organizations build cultures of belonging that drive lasting employee engagement and customer loyalty. Welcome to the show, Stephen.
- [01:16]
Steven Baer
Thanks so much for having me. I'm looking forward to our conversation today.
- [01:19]
Nathan Isaacs
Excellent, Stephen. To kick things off, can you just tell us a bit about your background and what led you to focus on your work on engagement, belonging, and building stronger connections between employees and customers?
- [01:32]
Steven Baer
You bet. You bet. So I started my career in the video game industry where engagement really isn't an option, right? If players aren't, like, emotionally invested, then they kind of leave instantly. So that's kind of like the foundation of where I started, right? And then in the years that followed, as you kind of said, I moved into the corporate world where I saw the exact opposite, right? Talented people were disengaged, and not because they, like, lack drive, right. But because the systems weren't there to engage them. They weren't designed for connection. So I really became obsessed with this question of why do we design products or other things for engagement, but not workplaces? And so over the last 30 years, I've seen the. The same pattern pretty much everywhere, right? When employees are engaged, there's better customer experiences, and when there's better customer experiences, there's stronger, stronger financial performance. So technology is kind of the culmination of that. And it's. It's the realization that engagement isn't fluff, it is infrastructure that's really critical for any business.
- [02:37]
Nathan Isaacs
Well, and as we're getting into that and just really that's. My next question is, can you dive deeper into that and kind of tell us, you know, it's 30 case studies, can you kind of just give us an overview and Just kind of like why it's not just an hr, sort of like check the box program and go from there.
- [02:58]
Steven Baer
Yeah, yeah, certainly. So one of the things I talk about a lot is how businesses are either built with Velcro. Velcro or glue. It's kind of a silly analogy, but you know, in my mind, Velcro is, you know, the equivalent of connection and glue is the equivalent of engagement. So Velcro, it sticks fast and it, and it's really convenient and it works until pressure is applied and then kind of rips apart really easily, right? Glue takes time, it requires chemistry, but it holds when things get messy. Most organizations are built with Velcro, right? And they're surprised when people peel off during moments of stress or change or uncertainty. When engagement becomes a strategy instead of just like a human resources campaign, lots of things change, right? It moves from survey results to operational design. Leaders stop asking how do we motivate people? They start asking things like how do we design systems for our people? Right? Two very different questions. Hiring becomes more about values alignment, not just is this person skilled. Product decisions are considered like the emotional impact, not just the feature sets. CX isn't optimized for convenience, it's optimized for connection. And then metrics expand beyond efficiency to include things like trust and advocacy, which is really important for any brand. So engagement becomes really a growth lever, right? It becomes risk mitigation, it becomes a competitive moat. And what I find is that great engagement directly results in great performance, right? That's employee performance, customer performance, customer performance, company performance. When you take the time and you don't cut the corners, the impact is so much greater. And so I wouldn't look at how do we just build a really good HR program or campaign, but really how do we make this part of the infrastructure of our business?
- [05:00]
Nathan Isaacs
Well, and you know, follow up on that. You know, you write about this, you posted even you know on LinkedIn about it. Is that your CX or your customer experience will never or your customer experience score will never exceed your employees experience. What are the blind spots that leaders are need to keep an eye out for when you're trying to address that?
- [05:25]
Steven Baer
It's a great question. So there are a lot of them, right? The biggest blind spots in my mind, leaders invest in brand storytelling externally, but internally, maybe there are employees that are feeling ignored and there are signs for that. You can tell when someone is disconnected or disengaged. In fact, there's a Gallup study from just last year that showed that worldwide 79% of employees are disengaged or very disengaged. So any organization only has 21% of their employees engaged. That's really not very, not something to be proud of. Right. But other signs, right, Maybe they're optimizing for speed and automation, but there's human connection that's eroding. Maybe they're, you know, they add CX tech while ignoring the frontline employee frustration. So those are certain things to think about. You can't script warmth, right? You have to automate and you can't automate care, right. You can't market authenticity internally if the culture doesn't support it. So like, it all has to connect, right. When employees feel replaceable or unheard or over optimized, it goes right to the customer. Customers feel processed, they feel upsold, they feel managed. I think that emotions are infectious, good or bad, right. And so, and when, when it's bad, it has a real impact on your business. If your employees don't feel good, your customers aren't going to feel good and your bottom line's not going to feel good as a result.
- [06:59]
Nathan Isaacs
Yeah, I think about, I mean, just even my time in the service when I was in the navy on a submarine. And just like what got me going, it. And it wasn't that I had leaders that were my buddies, but they were just honest about what they needed from me to get the work done. And so then, and I, you know, I bring this into the work world that we, I live in today. When, when I feel engaged, when I feel like I understand what, you know, the big direction or the big picture or whatever, then I'm putting a little bit more effort in. If I'm disengaged, I can just, I can just quickly edit this podcast and push it out, right? And all of our ums and ahs are there. And it's not a polished thing, nobody's going to listen to it, but we did check off the box, you know, and, and maybe that's how, what happens in the world, right? You know, they just kind of like make their widget, but they don't make that widget with love. And, and, and I don't mean to be over emotional about that, but it's just, I'm, I'm wondering, there's, I hear about all the scores, right? And, and I work in a, for a company that this is what we do. We connect, you know, our customers with their customers and, and we score everything and we measure and we get all sorts of research. I'm just Wondering, are there the non industry metrics, but are, are there indicators where you can, there's something up, there's something to miss it maybe. And, and it could be with our customers, you know, like, we're really worried about our renewal rate. But are there signs even before that becomes a problem that you may be, you know, a year from now that might be a problem? Are there, you know, you are there. You see your employee scores or whatever metric you're using, not really high, but is there a sign, you know, six months earlier that you should have paid attention to and that could have gotten you going?
- [09:06]
Steven Baer
Yeah, I, So it's a great, it's a great question. I think that, well, first of all, I don't think engagement collapses overnight. So yeah, there's definitely signs up front. There's signals, if you will.
- [09:15]
Nathan Isaacs
Right.
- [09:15]
Steven Baer
And there's some signals, I think, both on the employee side and on the customer side. On the employee side, things like newsletter open rates, being in the single digits, that should be a red flag when you have optional programs for employees and really low participation. Another red flag when you see that you're in a meeting and no one's disagreeing because no one really cares. Another red flag. Or when overall innovation is dipping or slowing down. These are all things that should give you some pause and concern as a leader. On a customer side, there are certainly things like community channels that are dominated by the brand, not by the consumers. Right. You want your customer to be an advocate. You want them to be out there talking on your behalf. So if, if you're doing all the talking, who cares? Right. Referral rates dropping, repeat purchasing, dipping, even if, and you know, the, the thing is, is even you can have high engagement online in theory, but low emotional language, that's a sign too. Right. You want to be thinking about not are they engaging, but how are they engaging, what are they saying? What, what are they, what are they putting out there? The key signals, high interaction, low emotional investment. That's connection without commitment. And that's the BELGR that we were talking about earlier. Right. Like, yeah, they might be there, but they're going to peel off eventually and you should be looking for that, no doubt.
- [10:44]
Nathan Isaacs
Right, Right. Yeah, you can. And, and also, like, you may be benefiting from factors outside your control. Right? Yeah, the, the macro environment. Right. No one's going to leave their job right now because they're worried about getting the next job, but they hate your, their current place of employment and as soon as things get better. Right. This is what I learned back in My dating days is that my girlfriends would keep me around until they found their next boyfriend, right? I was like, oh, okay.
- [11:21]
Steven Baer
But eventually someone swooped you up and they, you know, and. And they call you theirs, right?
- [11:25]
Nathan Isaacs
I just celebrated my anniversary and she still regrets that day, so.
- [11:32]
Steven Baer
Well, at least someone celebrating, that's all that matters, right?
- [11:35]
Nathan Isaacs
Exactly. The I am. When we talk about belonging, I'm just wondering, the listeners to this show, these are people who are designing the products out there in the world, right? You know, big brands to small brands, whatever it might be in between, how do they build that belonging into the products that they're building? Is it. Is there. Is there a path for that or, you know, how can they think about that?
- [12:07]
Steven Baer
Yeah, that's a really good question to me. I think that most UX teams design for usability. They design for efficiency. They design for maybe friction reduction. But belonging is a really important part. And so the things that I think you should be asking yourself is, you know, when someone is engaging with your brand, think about representation. Do you know, are they asking themselves, do I see myself here with this product? Right? Think about voice. You know, can. Can. Can you influence them with it? Think about recognition. Do they feel like they're acknowledged by the way that you've designed something? And back to. I think something we talked about really early on was values, right? That's not just about when you're hiring somebody, that's also about, you know, they're your end customer. Does. Does what you're designing align with what they believe? Right. And so I think that, you know, representation, voice recognition, shared values is really all important things. Designing for belonging means asking things like, where does this experience signal identity, right? What does it create? Where does it create participation? Where does it invite contribution, not just consumption, right? So, I mean, I think those are important things for us to be thinking about. To me, belonging happens when someone feels like this was made with them in mind, right? Not just that it works. And so, you know, getting beyond just features and functions and really thinking about how do I emotionally connect with this person and make sure that it's designed, that they look at and they say, these guys knew I needed this. Right? Way easier said than done, but a really important thing to be thinking about as you're designing.
- [13:51]
Nathan Isaacs
You know, as I'm listening to you, the campaign that popped in my head, a marketing campaign, was the Dove Real beauty campaign, right? They pivot away from the. The traditional everyone. And this is a subject. I have no idea what I'm talking about. So I apologize in advance. Right. But you know, they pivoted from the, you know, beautiful models to just real bodies. Right. And, and the beauty of you. And they focused on this and they just said this, what our values are. And, and it was been wildly successful, right. We're in 20 odd years since then, since that campaign first launched and they're still running strong with it. I think of something more recently and there'll be a couple months now when this show goes live, but the, the gamble, we'll, we'll see what happens. But I'm thinking about Anthropic's decision to, you know, push back on the Pentagon and say, you know what, we'll go, we'll forego that 200 million because we think sticking to this value is going to give us more money with, you know, a different audience later on or something like that.
- [15:10]
Steven Baer
And well, we're even, we're even seeing. I know it's short term, right, but you're seeing all these people respond to it. How many posts have I seen where someone has said, I've spent the last year getting Gemini or getting, you know, chatgpt or you name it, to really understand all my information, all my context, all my approach. And I'm abandoning shit because I believe in what those guys just did, right. And so they're, they're tapping into that, that emotion and that's really critical.
- [15:38]
Nathan Isaacs
Now.
- [15:38]
Steven Baer
I, I do believe that it seems like that is core to their values and who they are and they, you know, they are trying to tap into others who have similar values. To your point, we will see in a few months or a year or two whether they win or lose with that strategy, but I think it's the right one.
- [15:55]
Nathan Isaacs
Yeah, yeah, no, I think you're on the right lines there. Well, I am a contrarian in my DNA, so I, I applaud anybody who pushes back against a man. So we will see, we will see you talk, you know, and about the book and, and you say like, hey, let's move beyond mission statements and, and, and kind of what we're talking about here is to integrating purpose into our daily operational decisions. I'm just wondering, what does that look like? You know, can you just, you know, for. How do we do that in our product roadmap or in a customer feedback program or, or whatnot?
- [16:39]
Steven Baer
Yeah, it's a great question. So I believe that, and certainly some of the case studies in the book and stuff I just talk about outside the book align with this. There's a really big disconnect in most Companies between the purpose, the mission, the vision, the values that are kind of articulated in the boardroom by executives and what the day to day worker does or knows. And I would imagine in 99% of, you know, situations, if you ask a frontline worker, hey, can you talk to me about the mission or the vision or the purpose of your business? They'd say, yeah, I don't know, we sell this. And that's not, that's not the mission, the purpose of the vision. That's, you know, that's so, so I think one is making sure there's alignment between the two. And, and I, I'm sorry, I'm going on a tangent. I'll get back to your question one second.
- [17:29]
Nathan Isaacs
Go for it.
- [17:30]
Steven Baer
Yeah, there was a, There's a ex CEO chairman emeritus Gary Ridge from WD40 who I love what he talks about. He talks about changing all managers into coaches and really helping those individuals at that mid level be responsible for being the bridge between that mission, vision, purpose, value and the day to day work of their employees and helping understand how they can really make that part of their day to day, you know, actions. So I think that that's really important and missing for most companies to, to better answer your question, I, I think when, when purpose is real, right? When you see it in the small, everyday decisions, it shows up when someone says something like, yeah, I, we could ship this feature, but it doesn't really actually feel like us, right? Like you want people to be thinking it. Does this feel like who we are? Does this match that kind of back to what you just talked about with Anthropic, Right. It shows up when you choose the harder supplier because it aligns with your values. My cost more, but it aligns with who you are. Right. It shows up when your marketing team doesn't promise something that your operations team can't deliver. So making sure that that alignment is there. It shows up when customers complain and instead of logging it to a spreadsheet, you actually call them up on the phone and say thank you for your feedback and put a plan in place to actually implement a solution against it. Right? So purpose is not a slide in a deck like. Right. And I think that most companies think, well, we've articulated, we've defined it great, well, how do you roll it out? Right? It's this, you know, it's the reason that someone in a meeting says, wait, who are we? Right. Kind of going back to does this align with who we are? Right. And if no one's asking those questions, then the Mission or the purpose or the vision is probably just a piece of art on your wall, right? So what are the things that we can do? Right? So I think that to really make sure that there's alignment, I think we can be thinking about how do we approach our pricing decisions, how do we approach our supplier choices, how do we approach our feature prioritization, how do we communicate both to our employees and to our customers. And it's not just about being perfect, right? Because God knows none of us are right. It's about being consistent. And if we define that this is our purpose thinking about on a regular basis, how do we make sure it shows up in our everyday work? And that takes a lot of work. So once again, it's great. I can stand here and say this stuff is easy and we should do it, but it's not. But the reality is it's important. And the companies that are doing it, well, they are outpacing everyone else. So I gave you a long winded answer and I'll give you just one more thing if it's okay.
- [20:31]
Nathan Isaacs
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [20:33]
Steven Baer
There's the best places to work study that comes out each year and the companies that are on there typically are really good at what we just discussed. And not only they're really good and they have really amazing customer advocates as a result and longevity with their employees. But there are three stats that stick out in my mind that showcase that those two things happen. One, they see that the companies that are really taking this approach to building best places, human centric and are sticking to their values have one third the turnover that, you know, their competitors have. Number two is they have eight times more revenue per employee than their competitors. And number three, they're outpacing the S&P by three and a half times. So to me, it's like, you know, you could take the shortcut and just say, we're going to put this piece of art on the wall or you can do the hard work and say we're going to make sure it get everyone understands it and we're going to implement it. And as a result you're going to see some really good, you know, quantifiable results, you know, you know, afterwards.
- [21:40]
Nathan Isaacs
And it's a, it's an ongoing conversation that you have. You talk about turning those middle managers into coaches. And that reminded me of a. And I apologize to all our listeners, I, I really don't live this way. But it's another submarine reference. It's a book called Turn the Ship around and it was about a Captain who really just. And I was on a submarine, you. It very, very hierarchical organization. You do everything your senior person tells you to do. But where he found success, this Navy submarine captain, was that he pushed. He said, I don't need to be responsible for every single decision of interpreting what our mission is. All right, I'm going to push that down to you. You can decide if these three guys go on vacation, that means we have nobody to stand to watch. That's a decision that their supervisors should be able to figure out. It doesn't need to come all the way up to the XO or something like that. And so you work for a technology company and this is your mission, your frontline people, your customer support people. How do you interpret that mission in your day to day, taking a call, reaching out to a renewal meeting or something like that? Am I. And just have that conversation, Right. You can just have it with a peer or with your manager and just say, like, all right, this is our mission. How does that apply to. For Nathan Isaacs, creating a podcast or picking the guests on the podcast, whatever it might be. Right? Am I, am I wrong?
- [23:23]
Steven Baer
Yeah. So, yes, I think that's really important is making sure that you act as the connective tissue between. This is what we're told from the C suite we need to do. Nathan or Steven or whoever. How do we make sure that you do this successfully? And you know, to that point, I talk about often how I think most companies would run better if they were designed like video games. And what I mean by that is if you think about it, right, as a player for a video game, we know what the rule sets are, we know what the objective is and we're set off to explore, right? We're set off to just try stuff. It's a safe place to fail. We get constant feedback. We, you know, get when, when and when something goes wrong, we can try again. And when something goes right, we feel a sense of achievement. And you know, the reality is, is that one, we don't know the rule set normally in a work space. Two, when we make a mistake, it's not often acceptable. Right. And three, we rarely get feedback. Right. You know, an annual review is not sufficient. Right. Like, people need to hear regularly, like, you're doing great and here's why you're doing great. Keep it up or hey, you might want to tweak this and keep going, you know, and that's the coaching that we're talking about that's missing from so many organizations.
- [24:49]
Nathan Isaacs
Well, and two, also in these you know, the most successful video games, you know, you. How do you. Next level, right? Give people direction. This is what you're trying to get to create a place where they can have conversations, right? The video gamers. Oh, my gosh, this is a pain in my butt. But my, you know, kids watch the video game videos of people playing video games, right? I don't approve of any of that, but they are learning how to. How to hack Mario or whatever it is, so.
- [25:20]
Steven Baer
Well, I tell my kids that they're all, you know, their. Their brains are all rotting as a result of doing the same. So, you know, I, I let them enjoy that and then feel bad about what their dad says.
- [25:28]
Nathan Isaacs
You know, it's good to hear that we say the same exact things. I've never met you before. Oh, my gosh. And that's why all kids roll their eyes at us. The. You make a distinction, a distinction about good and bad friction in a customer journey. Can you tell us more about that and. And why finding a balance matters?
- [25:50]
Steven Baer
Yeah, yeah. When we think about friction, I think we often think about bad friction, right? So like, you know, a confusing checkout flow, long waiting times, bureaucracy, red tape, hidden fees, all that stuff. But there's also good friction, right? Moments of intentional pause, transparency, disclosures, thoughtful onboarding, purposeful storytelling. Right. Community participation. That is required. So the difference between the two is bad friction feels like incompetence. Good friction feels good. It feels like someone cares. And if everything's optimized for speed and nothing is optimized for meaning, companies will lose their employees and their customers over time, no doubt. Right? So I often encourage companies to just slow down, focus on their people who, you know, who both work for you and buy from you. Make them feel good, make them feel seen, make them feel heard, and the results will be greater trust and a lot more loyalty, a lot more advocacy. All the stuff that we want, right? But sometimes there is that good friction to accomplish that, if that makes sense.
- [27:06]
Nathan Isaacs
No, you're right. I'm another former gig. I used to be a newspaper reporter, and we were taught from the get go is you ask a question, you just wait, have that friction, right? Don't just answer the question for them. Don't just move on to the next question. Wait. And they will create that friction, create that awkwardness of silence, and they will just start talking.
- [27:35]
Steven Baer
That's it. Because no one wants that silence, right? So they'll fill it. They'll fill it for you and you just.
- [27:41]
Nathan Isaacs
And I would just stare at one man. I have. Yes, it was, that was one of my successful things I could do is just be patient with these people and you wouldn't know that because I'm a loudmouth. But anyway, I, I do, I, I also think I've been in those meetings where, you know, the, the boss is saying, this is what we're going to do. Any, anyone have any questions and everyone's just silent and, and the bosses, oh, no one said anything. I'll just move on because I want to end the meeting when you know,
- [28:16]
Steven Baer
but that, you know what that's a sign of? Right? That's a sign of. Well, it's probably a sign of two things, possibly. First one I was going to say is it's a sign of a really disengaged workforce. Right. People who are checked out that just don't care. The second one potentially is a fearful workforce. Right. And neither of those are good. Right, Right. So.
- [28:38]
Nathan Isaacs
Right. And the boss should just be like waiting or encouraging, you know, get some feedback, get those questions rolling. Yeah, I've often thought like instead of the boss leading the meeting every time, have the junior person lead a meeting, you know, and, and get them engaged or something like that.
- [28:58]
Steven Baer
So to that end, there's a terminology, a term of servant leadership, something I really believe in. And Bob Chapman, who is a CEO in, actually he's now a former CEO in industrial business, 12,000 employees. Barry Waymiller is the name of the company. He talks about servant leadership being critical to his company and something that, that they are hyper focused on. And he goes a step further. Right. He talks about how employees are everybody's son or daughter, mother or father, brother or sister, husband or wife, and that you need to think about them that way and think about the fact that they are in your care for 40 hours a week. Right. So not for you to talk to them, not for you to, not for you to tell them what to do, but for you to encourage them, coach them and let them, let them loose to actually be successful. Right. And so part of that, to your very point, is stepping back and saying, I trust you. Right. Let's do this. Who's going to run this meeting? It's not me. Let me let you know, Nathan, this week I want you to run it and you know the rules of what the meeting is. Go for it, take your approach and let's make this successful and let's all learn from you, you know?
- [30:17]
Nathan Isaacs
Right. And it opens up opportunities for others to get involved in that conversation. Right. If we're afraid of challenging the boss and the Boss's ideas. We, we, we definitely are not afraid of Nathan and, and challenges his ideas even though they may be the same talking points as the boss. It's, it's now an opportunity for people to kind of like, hey, push back and say I don't really understand how that I do that. You know, when we go to market or whatever it might be. I am wondering, you know, we, we have leaders that are listening to the show, whoever they may be. CMO head of Product Design leader and they're realizing that they on the spectrum, they are more velcro than glue. What should they do here in the next 30, 60, 90 days?
- [31:05]
Steven Baer
Yeah, so if, if you realize that your product is not as sticky as you want it to be, I would approach it probably in these three different buckets. So maybe the first 30 days I would just take time and listen, Listen to as many people as you can. Don't launch anything, don't rebrand anything, don't announce any culture initiatives. Just ask people questions. Sit down with maybe 10, 15, 20, 30 employees. Ask them, when are you most proud to work here? Right. Do the same thing. Ask things like when do you feel most frustrated? Understand the good and the bad, right? Do the next same thing with customers. Ask them, why do you choose us? Hopefully why do you choose us first? And what's made you leave or almost leave, right? Like I think that's really important to understand. Just understand. And with every answer you need to look not for data, look for emotion, right? The more you can tap into emotion, the better, right? Then look at your touch points. Where are people interacting with you a lot but not feeling very much, right? So that's a big red flag and you need to understand that that's the first 30 days, maybe the next 30 days. I would focus on fixing a few and I want to emphasize a few real moments, right? Try not to fix everything. That's not how you're going to make change, right? So maybe pick two employee moments, maybe onboarding or performance reviews or team meetings and pick maybe two customer moments, checkouts or support calls, post purchase emails, whatever it is, and ask how could this feel more human? Where are we rushing? Where are we hiding? Where are we over automating?
- [32:51]
Nathan Isaacs
Right?
- [32:52]
Steven Baer
It's something that we're all quick to do, but maybe not for the good, right? And then make some small but visible changes. And when someone gives you feedback, close the loop and do it publicly. Right? Nothing builds trust faster than when you say out loud, you told us this wasn't working and we changed It, Right. That taps into people saying, they're listening to me. So, great, so you've listened, now you've made some changes. How do you make it stick? And I think this is the last part. Think of those last, know, 30 days. So you got to build the structure. So how do you reward behaviors that actually, that you want to see, not just revenue? Right? Because revenue will come and will come in, in. In volume if you are able to align with the behaviors that you, that, that, you know, your employees need to do and your customers want. How do you tell stories to people inside the company who, who have lived the values, Right. How do you tell them, the people who are there, both internally and externally, about those values and make sure that it's not just a poster on the wall, but it's, here's how we're actually making that happen. And then how do you help managers understand the ways that, you know, when they walk into the room, that's going to really change the temperature? Kind of what we were talking about earlier, right? It's not just about what they say, it's about how they say it. So here's the biggest shift though, I guess. Nathan, stop treating engagement like an initiative or a quarterly exercise. Right? It's not a campaign. It's not a morale boost. It's not a theme for the year. It's how you design your company. Right. And I think that that's all of us need to be in that mindset of, I'm not trying to do something short term. I'm trying to change the way we do business. If you wouldn't treat your product temporary, you know, with some experiment, well, then you shouldn't treat your culture that way either, Right? So I think you got to kind of go through this whole process, but with that in mind. Right? Which we are, we are making changes for the long haul.
- [34:59]
Nathan Isaacs
I love it. I love it. Stephen, thank you so much for being on the show. I really enjoyed our conversation. How does someone learn more about you? How do they buy a copy of the book and just follow your thought leadership?
- [35:12]
Steven Baer
Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you for having me. Once again, my website is Steven Baer.com that's S T E P H E N B A E R dot com. Books are sold anywhere. Books are sold. And I hope you'll be able to check out steakology. And if you're looking for someone whose brain you want to pick or someone who you'd like to have talk, please get in touch. I'd love the opportunity.
- [35:34]
Nathan Isaacs
Absolutely. All right. Hey, I appreciate it. Thank you so much.
- [35:37]
Steven Baer
Thanks so much, Nathan. I appreciate it.
- [35:39]
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