How staff designers can lead without being managers with Catt Small

Summary

Podcast Summary: Insights Unlocked Episode Title: How staff designers can lead without being managers with Catt Small
Date: February 23, 2026
Host: Jason Giles (VP of Design, UserTesting)
Guest: Catt Small (Staff Product Designer, Game Maker, Author of The Staff Designer)
Producer: Nathan Isaacs
Duration: ~43 minutes

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Overview

In this episode of Insights Unlocked, host Jason Giles delves into the nuanced role of the staff designer with guest Catt Small, author of The Staff Designer. The discussion explores how senior individual contributors (ICs) can drive organizational influence and critical change without moving into management roles. Catt and Jason discuss the mindset shifts from hands-on craft to broader influence, how to make invisible work visible and valuable, strategies for managing energy and impact, and advice on navigating design’s evolving landscape—especially in the AI era.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Catt Small’s Career Trajectory and Motivations

• Catt’s path blends art, technology, and games. From programming dress-up dolls as a child to organizing conferences for game developers of color, Catt’s experience has always sat at the intersection of creativity and technology. (02:02–05:29)
• Primary driver: Fascination with people—how they think, work, and communicate. Catt’s work, both in games and design writing, often originates from self-inquiry and a desire to start conversations within the community.
  • “I’m just so fascinated by people and how they think and how they work.” —Catt [05:47]

2. Defining and Demystifying the Staff Designer

• The staff designer role is often misunderstood or mystified, yet crucial.
  • Catt realized the lack of clarity around this role when seeking progression beyond management.
  • Early influences included observing and learning from peers like Jessica Harley at Etsy. (07:37–10:59)
• Influence ≠ Management: Staff designers lead by influence, not authority. The conversation surfaced the industry’s lack of language and resources around this.
  • “Managers knew what influence was to them, but I didn’t know what it meant.” —Catt [07:37]
• Invisible work: Contributing beyond visible output, engaging in “glue” or “relationship” work that holds teams together but is often undervalued. (11:56–15:28)

3. The Reality and Value of Invisible Work

• Intentionality: Staff design impact often comes from energy invested into cross-functional relationship building, understanding stakeholder fears, and tailoring communication to priorities.
  • “There was a period in 2021... [where] Brian Lovin... interviewing people... was the only resource that I had had at any point that actually talked about staff design.” —Catt [10:59]
• Staff designers must strategically choose which “invisible” work moves the needle for the business and their own professional visibility.
• Mindset Shift: Moving from executing tasks (“being told what to do”) to diagnosing what truly matters, and shifting the manager-employee dynamic to that of a partnership.
  • “My manager is kind of my partner.” —Catt [11:56]
• Notable Anecdote: Catt describes connecting colleagues from separate teams after overhearing related challenges—demonstrating the real value in broad relationship networks. [15:28]

4. Navigating Organizational Politics and Power Structures

• From “allergic to politics” to understanding its necessity: Designers must reframe “politics” as the art of aligning stakeholders and managing “vibes”—emotions, fears, and perceptions. (17:04–21:11)
  • “Politics are part of the process... how can I learn how it works and figure out a little bit more in detail about ways that I can still operate with integrity and transparency?” —Catt [17:04]
• Communication as design: Catt used improv, books on feedback, and leadership coaching to improve how information is received and embraced within teams.
  • “A lot of politicking is just managing people’s emotions.” —Catt [21:11]

5. Managing Personal Energy and Time: The Energy Audit

• Awareness of energy cycles: Staff designers must recognize their own rhythms and structure their days accordingly for both meetings and focus work. (23:09–26:51)
  • Use of calendar color-coding and meeting “chunking” strategies (attributing to Lara Hogan) to manage energy drain.
  • Advocates for proactively discussing workload balance and energy distribution with managers like trusted partners.
• Designing your own workflow: Treat your time and calendar as a design problem—identifying what gives versus drains energy, and advocating for the right balance.

6. Coaching Others: The Fidelity Trap and Shared Understanding

• Leading other designers: Catt warns against jumping to high fidelity solutions too early; instead, use the right artifact fidelity for the conversation’s phase. (28:59–34:33)
  • “Directing the energy of the room to the right thing is key; if you go high-fidelity too soon, you narrow the conversation and can distract from the real problem.” —Catt [28:59]
• Visualization beyond UI: Sometimes, the clearest way to create a shared understanding is with abstract diagrams, not saturated interfaces.

7. The Staff Designer in the Age of AI

• AI as a tool, not a replacement: Treat AI as a “powerful intern” for efficiency, but always be the creative director—retaining critical it-based and discerning decision making. (35:13–37:42)
  • “AI is a great tool... to help us experiment and learn potentially faster. Sometimes it’s also slower.” —Catt [35:13]
  • Cautioned against letting AI drive the creative or critical process without human oversight.

8. Mindset Shifts, Confidence, and Final Reflections

• Biggest surprise writing the book: The centrality of trusting one’s intuition and stepping into discomfort—senior ICs must build and lean into inner confidence.
  • “The more that you trust yourself and put your perspective forward, obviously in a respectful way, that’s when people see, ‘Oh, wow, this person’s a leader.’” —Catt [39:04]
• For managers: The book helps leaders better understand, support, and champion staff-level ICs.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [05:47] Catt Small: “I’m just so fascinated by people and how they think and how they work.”
• [07:37] Catt Small: “Managers knew what influence was to them, but I didn’t know what it meant.”
• [15:28] Catt Small: “There’s essentially an investment of sorts in relationships so you have information from across the company...”
• [17:04] Catt Small: “Politics are part of the process... how can I learn how it works and figure out a little bit more in detail about ways that I can still operate with integrity and transparency?”
• [21:11] Catt Small: “A lot of politicking is just managing people’s emotions. I just thought it was stabbing people in the back and that, I don’t like."
• [23:09] Catt Small: “We have waves of energy that ebb and flow... you need to start to understand about yourself to make sure your calendar is designed in a way that makes you most effective.”
• [28:59] Catt Small: “Creating artifacts at the level of fidelity that reflects the fidelity of your current thinking.”
• [35:13] Catt Small: “AI is a great tool... to help us experiment and learn potentially faster. Sometimes it’s also slower.”
• [39:04] Catt Small: “The more that you trust yourself and put your perspective forward, obviously in a respectful way, that’s when people see, ‘Oh, wow, this person’s a leader.’”
• [42:01] Catt Small: “You can get the Staff Designer on Rosenfeld Media’s website... there’s a code where you can get 20% off of the book. And it’s just ‘usertesting’.”

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:02–05:29: Catt Small’s early journey, learning, and passion blend of arts and technology
• 07:37–10:59: The origin of her realization about staff designer gaps & learning from mentors
• 11:56–15:28: What “invisible work” is, the power of relationship-building, and the intentionality behind it
• 17:04–21:11: Navigating organizational politics, learning to communicate and manage with empathy and curiosity
• 23:09–26:51: Energy audits, calendar design, and workflows for sustained impact
• 28:59–34:33: Coaching others on design fidelity and aligning teams via the right artifacts
• 35:13–37:42: AI’s role for designers—tool, not threat; keeping human authority and creativity central
• 39:04–42:01: Reflections on writing the book; developing intuition and confidence as the core of staff-level leadership

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Resources Mentioned

• The Staff Designer by Catt Small (Rosenfeld Media)
• Brian Lovin’s “Staff Design” interviews (staff.design)
• “The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership” by Jim Dethmer, Diana Chapman, and Kaley Warner Klemp

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Connect with Catt Small

• LinkedIn: Catt Small (C-A-T-T S-M-A-L-L)
• Website: catsmall.com
• BlueSky: @catsmall

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Takeaways & Actionable Insights

• For aspiring staff designers: Success hinges less on technical craft, more on developing influence, relationships, and organizational insight—without sacrificing personal authenticity.
• Intentional “invisible” work matters: Prioritize activities for influence and impact, and learn how to communicate their value to peers and supervisors.
• Self-awareness and self-trust: Be proactive in designing your routines, workflows, and engaging in high-impact conversations.
• For managers: Support senior ICs by helping them clarify goals, recognize their invisible work, and move from directive to partner-based relationships.

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For more show notes, curated clips, and future episodes, visit usertesting.com/podcast.

Transcript

[Nathan Isaacs]

Welcome back to Insights Unlocked. In this episode, Jason sits down with product designer and author Kat Small to explore what it really means to grow your impact without becoming a manager. They unpack the mindset shift from craft to influence, the power of invisible work, and how senior designers can lead through communication, clarity, and confidence. Enjoy the show.

[Podcast Narrator]

Welcome to Insights Unlocked, an original podcast from User Testing where we bring you candid conversations and stories with the thinkers, doers and builders behind some of the most successful digital products and experiences in the world, from concept to execution.

[Nathan Isaacs]

Welcome to the Insights Unlocked podcast. I'm Nathan Isaacs, senior manager for content production and user testing. Joining us today as host is Jason Giles, User Testing's Vice president of design. Welcome back, Jason.

[Jason Giles]

Hello, everyone. And hello, Nathan. It's nice to be back.

[Nathan Isaacs]

And today's guest is Cat Small. Kat is a staff product designer, game maker, and author of the recently published book the Staff Designer. She spent her career shaping impactful digital experiences at companies like SoundCloud, Asana, and Etsy. And she's here to share how individual contributors can lead, influence and. And drive change without becoming managers. Welcome to the show, Kat.

[Kat Small]

Hey, happy to be here. Thanks for having me, Kat.

[Jason Giles]

I was really looking forward to this conversation. It's actually very timely because I've been having career conversations with my own team, so this is great. Before we begin, you've actually had a really fascinating career. Etsy to Asana, a bunch of cool stuff in between, even some game design, just to kind of ground us. Can you walk us through your journey and kind of how those. Those experiences shaped your. Your perspective?

[Kat Small]

Yeah, I think that it's been a really fun career to have. I. I honestly got into design and technology at a pretty young age. So I have been playing games my whole life and around the age of 10, really weir. This must have been like 2,000. Oh, no, 1999. Oh my God. I remember, like I learned. I taught myself how to essentially like make these dress up dolls because I was a huge fan of anime like Sailor Moon and I just wanted to experiment with fashion and I found out that, you know, if you essentially like program these dolls, you could like change their clothes and you could have your own original characters. And I was like, wow, technology is magical.

[Jason Giles]

These are physical dol.

[Kat Small]

It was digital. It was all like a digital dress of doll kind of thing. Yeah. So it was like a really good, wholesome period of time. And yeah, you know, me being like a 10 year old, I was like obsessed. You know, you could literally like illustrate as many clothes as you Wanted to. And I, I just felt like that showed me the power of what technology could be. And so then fast forward a couple years. I was in high school and I ended up taking, I went to this high school that was focused on like the visual arts, performing arts, like different kinds of creativity. And I was an art student there. So I specifically was focused on mostly fine arts. But then there was this one class that was called, I think it was computer graphics. And then I learned, oh, graphic design's a thing. Like what's that? And so then I ended up diving really deep into that. But that was also around the same time that blogging was getting pretty big. And so I had always been learning about visual art and technology at the same time. So like I was learning the fundamentals of design, but also how to program. And so I was like, okay, cool. Like I like both of these things. I don't know how these are going to combine in the future. And then fast forward to college. Then I did actually go to school for graphic design, but then I noticed while I was there that a lot of the other students weren't like the greatest at understanding interaction design. So I was like, okay, I think I'm going to go for that. And then I was also doing volunteer work with some friends of mine to make art for their games. Kind of like flexing that other kind of creative part of myself. And so there's always, again, it's been this like intersection. So by the time that I was out of college, I did actually have a junior web design position lined up. And then I also had a lot of understanding of how games worked. And then essentially as I built my career in design, I've also been building like a partial career in the gaming industry. So I've done a bunch of things on the gaming side. I've made my own games that have been shown in different museums and at different shows. I've also taught people to make games. I currently organize a conference that actually celebrates the creativity of game developers of color in particular that's been running for like 10 years. And then, yeah, I have my 16 year career as a digital product designer at this point. And yeah, it's really been fun to kind of balance all of those things.

[Jason Giles]

There's, there's so much diversity and experiences and influences on that. Are there some specific aspects, whether it's the game design or your writing ability that you feel like it's really kind of shaped what is uniquely you about your perspective?

[Kat Small]

Oh, that's so wonderful. Thank you. I, I do think That, I mean, I guess underpinning all of it is I'm just so fascinated by people and, like, how they think and how they work. And so a lot of, I mean, even the book itself is something that I, I wrote because I wanted to understand, you know, how everybody kind of thinks about this, this role. And I think a lot of my work, my games are definitely like a reflection of kind of my own lived experience. And a lot of the things that I write on my blog are very much that as well. So I think I'm, you know, I'm often putting myself out there to kind of see, you know, what resonates with other people, how do other people think about this? And I just want to have a conversation with everybody. So, yeah, that's why I also really like public speaking. I think that, you know, you kind of put a signal out there and then kind of see, you know, who. Who is drawn in and maybe is interested in having more conversation about some of these topics.

[Jason Giles]

I, I really love that. I love the bravery of inviting the conversation. And I. You mentioned the book, so, you know, let's get right to that. The book is called the Staff Designer and it explores this role that actually often flies under the radar or has lots of kind of mysticism around it. But it's super critical, I know, to my team and to every team that I've run. But what I think is unique about this is that, like, I guess my first question is, what first made you realize that there was this kind of gap in understanding around how we talk about both defining, but then also supporting the this senior level individual contributor, particularly within indesign.

[Kat Small]

Yeah, I remember feeling like there might be a gap while I was working at Etsy. I saw a couple of people in this position and I really admired their work. I want to call out specifically my now friend Jessica Harley. She was the first staff designer that I met that I felt like, oh, maybe I could do what she does one day. Like, you know, I feel like we think really similarly about the work. She's also a prolific blogger and I definitely recommend checking out her writing. And for a little bit, she was a mentor of sorts when I was working with her at Etsy. And I would just kind of ask her, like, you know, what made you not want to go into management and, you know, to kind of like, take this level up and, yeah, just getting to kind of pick her brain on things a little bit, like, opened up the idea that maybe I don't have to become a manager to progress in my career. And at that point, I had actually tried management and found it. There were parts of it that I really liked, but then there were parts of it where I just felt like I was really struggling on the, like, HR side. And I'm, like, very, very empathetic, which can be really good. But I think that to be an effective manager, sometimes you have to learn how to create a little bit of distance. And so I think I really struggled, but I wanted to figure out, you know, some. Some what career progression would look like for, for me. And so while I was at Etsy, you know, I started advocating for myself to potentially be put into that kind of staff position. But I think the language at the time was really unclear. And I think that basically, like, I think managers knew what influence was to them, but I didn't know what it meant. And it was hard to explain the. Those kinds of terms. And so they would say, you know, you have to build your influence skills. Like, you have to build these certain kind of mushy skills. And I, I just really, literally didn't understand what they meant. And that's when I realized, okay, something is here and nobody's really. Like, there was a book called, like, the Staff Engineer, but there wasn't anything for design. There was the Making of a Manager, but, like, that's about management. So I was just like, okay, I'm going to keep this in the back of my head. And then eventually I did, actually. So basically about a year passed and I was like, okay, I don't know what's going on here, but I'm going to kind of start looking around for a new job. And then I did get a staff position at Asana. And so then I was like, okay, now I've got the role. And it was very quickly apparent what my manager meant by influence. And so I was like, okay, now I can understand in a little more detail what they were saying now that I'm experiencing it. So I'm going to take notes and then if nobody else has written a book on this in a couple years, then I will contribute that because I. I do think that this is something that's missing. So it's honestly like my lived experience of struggling and not really finding very many resources. There was a period in 2021 where Brian Lovin, who did write the forward for my book, he had been interviewing people for his website, staff dot design. And that was a lifeline for me, but that was the only resource that I had had at any point that actually talked about staff design.

[Jason Giles]

When I, when I Saw the title of the book, I was. I was. Two reactions. One, I was like, awesome, finally. And then, oh, thank you. You go. Because even as a leader who is trying to help somebody through these transitions, you know, we're describing it to your point, right? When we talk about influence, impact, those concepts, you know, it's kind of. And even as leaders, sometimes we don't have the language to really articulate in a way that, you know, someone will understand. So I'm really excited about that. One of the concepts that you introduce in the book is this idea of invisible work. And, I mean, it's just so timely because I literally had this conversation today. Can you talk a little bit more about what that is and how somebody who's moving into this role might think about that or come to terms with it?

[Kat Small]

Absolutely. Yeah. I think a lot about the concept of, like, these. The different types of work that we do, essentially. I think when I initially started trying to build influence, while I was still a senior designer, I was taking on a lot of team culture work, which is really valuable and critical work. But that tends to fall into the category of what Tanya Riley called glue work, where, you know, you're kind of like, filling in the gaps. Gaps. But if you are doing things that are outside of the realm of what's defined in the career ladder as valuable, then you can end up in a situation where you are making an impact, but it's not the kind that will actually get you promoted or be seen as particularly valuable. And so a lot of the things that I reflect on in the book do touch on how you prioritize your energy to actually put in the kind of work that will result in building that influence and to actually result in the kind of impact that you want to make. So being more intentional and what that does look like is relationship building. It's a lot of understanding the fears and the concerns of your teammates, of your leaders, and being able to essentially angle your communications to adapt to what those people are prioritizing while still delivering the message that you intend to get across. And that is the kind of stuff that I think that we tend to right now or before this book. I think a lot of senior designers didn't really have a resource to understand how much of the transition is communication based and based on mindset. So one of the other things that you have to do, for example, is to kind of transition from being told what to do to essentially diagnosing what is important. And that was something that I partially struggled with myself because I had viewed my Manager as kind of, you know, someone above me. But then when I became a staff designer, actually, my manager is kind of my partner. And, you know, now I kind of. I approach the conversation more around, like, how do I get. Give you the information that you need to make good decisions? And, you know, I want to propose things and kind of have you be a thought partner instead of, you know, having kind of potentially an adversarial work relationship. So I think that's like a lot of the. The. The effort. I, I meet with a lot of people from across the company to kind of stay aware of what's going on. And then you just. You kind of never know when that is going to come in handy. But, for example, you know, like, semi recently at my current employer, I was. I was talking with this brand designer, and, you know, she happened to mention, like, oh, hey, you know, we're kind of working on this one project in particular. And then I was in a design crit with several other people on a completely different team, and they mentioned, you know, oh, like, our colors are a little bit discordant in this particular way. And I could be like, oh, hey, like, I actually know that there's conversation about these things right now, and I can connect you with those people. And, you know, the design director who's running that crit saw that, and those are the little things. So I think there's essentially an investment of sorts in relationships so that you have the information from across the company and then you can utilize that at certain points in time.

[Jason Giles]

The. There was a couple things, some words, specific words that you use that I want to really. I really appreciate. The first one was intentionality. Right. So you're doing this invisible work, and, you know, we all do it, but even at like a, you know, a more junior IC level. But I think that mindset shift of, like, I'm doing it but for a purpose, and that provides more kind of direction and meaning. And probably I'm projecting. But I remember this when I was a staff designer, more fulfillment in that work, in actually valuing. I am doing this, and I'm making these connections, or I am doing. Taking this effort for a purpose. It's. It's.

[Kat Small]

I've.

[Jason Giles]

I'm designing the process, and that kind of mind shift, I think, is. Is really, really powerful. The other thing that you touched on was the importance of kind of understanding the environment and making a lot of the relationships, understanding kind of the power structures that are at play. That can be a really difficult transition. Particularly, you know, I. I'll Speak about myself, you know, I was like, it was about the craft, man. Yeah, I just want to, like, do great work. Like, this is. Starts to feel like politics and that kind of stuff for you. What was your experience and. And what kind of skills did you have to develop to help with that kind of transition?

[Kat Small]

I totally empathize with that feeling of potentially, I like to describe it as being allergic to politics. So I also was at certain points in my career, especially early, like when I was a senior designer, I would say the same thing. Like, oh, I don't want to be political about stuff. That stuff's annoying. Like, I just want to do the work. But then I realized that to do good work, to actually get work shipped, a lot of the times you do have to understand the priorities of the people who are especially above you. And you have to treat them as a sort of customer and figure out the right way to convey information to them so that they actually hear you. And then you have to, of course, you know, gather information from them and make sure that you're prioritizing and, you know, appropriately integrating them into the process. So when I realized that if I actually wanted to get good workshop, that I would. I would have to figure out how to politic, it kind of changed my mind a little bit and made me recognize that it is there. I can't. I can't change that. Politics are part of the process. So how can I learn how it works in and figure out a little bit more in detail about ways that I can still operate with integrity and transparency? But, you know, to actually benefit my customers, I do need to figure out a way to navigate the system. So that was the big thing for me, was just accepting that I can't change politicking and that I need to. Yeah, like, if I still want to be a designer and I want to have more impact, then I've got to figure that out. So the things that I started working on, it was all communication, investment, for sure. One thing I started experimenting with was, okay, if I say something in a particular way, how does it change the way that it's received? So I started looking into, like, improv techniques, for example, because I remember taking this one workshop at work, and I believe it was essentially about the difference between, like, a clear no and then like a yes. And, you know, like, let's modify the idea somehow and how, you know, that kind of change actually led to, you know, more openness and more conversation. So it was little things like that. I did also start reading some books on the Subject. So I read some books about feedback. I read some books about just, like, being a more conscious leader. I will shout out my now friend, former coach, former manager, and like, coworker Sarah Kramer for sending me a copy of the 15 commitments of conscious Leadership. Because when I was in my first staff design role, working with Sarah, that book actually really helped me before Brian Lovin's website came online. And it had a lot to do with the concept of not being right and focusing more on being curious. And so I was like, okay, I'm going to try being curious instead of, you know, coming into conversations and being like, I'm right, I'm right. I'm correct all the time. And then I noticed, like, oh, if I am not defensive, and I'm like, oh, where are you coming from when you, when you say that? Critique manager or leader, then people will actually just explain how they think. And then they're like, oh, Kat heard me, and, you know, I actually feel like she cares. And then I realized over time, like, how much of our work is mostly like, vibes, driven to use, to use, for lack of a better language. But yeah, yeah, I, I, I realized, like, a lot of politicking, quote unquote, is just, like, managing people's emotions. And when I understood that, then I was like, oh, okay, cool. Like, I can work with feelings. I just thought it was, like, stabbing people in the back and stuff. And that part I don't like. Like, I, I really am not interested in, like, that kind of drama. But if it's just, oh, this person's scared, so they're, you know, lizard braining, then we can work with the lizard brain and figure out how to, like, you know, kind of turn that off and get to a place where they're seeing clarity again.

[Jason Giles]

I, I love that. Oh, you're such a designer. I've always said that, you know, designers have all these special capabilities that if applied in different contexts, it can unlock magic. And what you talked about first was empathy, like, lizard brain, fear. Oh, here's what could be going on. Curiosity, right? Like, what's really going on? Asking open questions, like, getting curious about this and then experimenting. Well, I'm going to try this approach and see if, like, if my language changes. And I think, I think that when young designers particularly understand that they've got all these tools at their disposal that can be applied into their career, into how they manifest or create or the outcomes that they're trying to do, they just, they got, they got so much power. Just, it just needs to be Directed in the right way and it's not in it and it's framed in something they're familiar with.

[Kat Small]

Yeah.

[Jason Giles]

And I think you've done a really good job of kind of articulating that which I, I really appreciate.

[Kat Small]

Thank you.

[Jason Giles]

Let's talk about. So a lot of this particularly invisible work, the influencing, making connection, framing the work for others, that takes an incredible amount of, of energy and time. In your book you talk about energy audits. I think that's very interesting. And, and thinking about how to manage energy in effective ways. What would you advise to designers who want to balance doing this great craft while driving meaningful customer centered change? Understanding that there's this other thing at play which is just energy.

[Kat Small]

Absolutely, yeah. As people, we have a certain amount of time in the day and we also have waves of energy that ebb and flow. And so it is really important as part of this work when you're oper operating at this level, that you recognize when you tend to be at your best or what kind of environment you need to be in to be at your best. And a big part of that is looking at your calendar, for example, and understanding, okay, I tend to, you know, be the most clear headed at 3pm so I'm going to try to have my meetings, you know, either after three or before three, depending on your logic there. Maybe you want to have more focus time so you can actually, you know, like deliver work so you want to be the most clear headed for that kind of effort. Or maybe you want to be your most present self in crits so you want to, you know, have credit three or something like that. Those are some of the things that I kind of think through and recommend that people consider. I also recommend this practice shout outs to Lara Hogan for this one. Color coding your meetings and understanding how combinations of meetings can result in how you feel and, and how well you can function as a designer. That's also really valuable for again being able to recognize shifts you need to make potentially. So one thing I realized for example, was that if I had, you know, a 30 minute meeting and then a 30 minute break and then another 30 minute meeting and then another 30 minute break, if you just do that the whole day. For me, I'm exhausted and I don't ever have enough time to actually progress and, and so I actually ask people now to chunk meetings with me. So it seems maybe counterintuitive, but I actually usually will set a one to one, for example, to be 25 minutes long instead of 30. So if I need to get Water or anything like that, then I've got my break. But then I want to have those meetings right after one after another. And I can do that for probably three hours, you know, and then I need focus time after that. And I usually try to have blocks of two hours at least for my focus time. I think, you know, if you go three to four hours, then it can be kind of a lot of focus time. So there, you know, you might want to have a break in between. But these are the kinds of things you need to start to understand about yourself to make sure that your calendar is, you know, designed in a way that makes you most effective. And then you can start to think about, okay, what's the allocation of my time? So how much time do I want to spend on, you know, forward looking, you know, one year out, two year out kinds of work versus thinking about immediate priorities? That's another way that you can also manage your energy as well. And so you can do things like, you know, consider how you want to do that and then you can go talk to your manager and say, hey, I propose that I spend, you know, 70% of my time on immediate work shipping right now and then 30% of my time thinking about what's coming next or auditing the existing product, et cetera, to make sure that we're just capturing any potential new work. And again, if you're treating your manager like a partner and you're treating your PM like a partner as well in terms of how you spend your time, then they will understand what matters to you and they can help you prioritize appropriately. So those are some examples of the way that I think about energy management. And the only reason I can do the amount of work that I do is because I do put in a little upfront effort to make sure that I'm spending my time appropriately.

[Jason Giles]

There's the mindfulness there of spending it and being aware of how you impact. So you've designed a program for you. Like, hey, I figured out, like, if I do this chunking of this way and this way, I think that's critically important. I think the other aspect too is having an understanding of and just an awareness of what types of activities or conversations or whatever it is are energy giving versus draining. And like, look, let's be real, like we all have to do things that we don't enjoy or that don't give us a bunch. But how do you spread those out throughout your day without your week? Do you group them all together and get them all done with? Do you get them out of the way first. But again, using your design brain to design your day, your weeks, and knowing that your energy is a resource that has to be managed and again, it can be used in your context. I also love the fact of, again, this is a very staff level thing to do of like, as I look at the time that I'm spending, here's where I think I should be spending it. Manager, do you agree? You know, and do you have that support, like that reframing of your manager as a partner in how to make you successful and for everybody to achieve the outcomes that they're wanting. So I just. Yeah, I love it. Kat, why am I only meeting you now?

[Kat Small]

I know.

[Jason Giles]

Okay, so let's go down and let's drop into some gritty stuff with, you know, the role of staff designer. A lot of times you're directing the work of others and, you know, we see lots of habits that, you know, young designers will have. Let's just talk about, like, some basics, like how do you caution designers around getting into high fidelity too fast? What is your approach to that type of, of coaching?

[Kat Small]

Yeah, I, this is something that comes up a lot in the course that I run about the same topic. We, we talk a lot about managing the energy of other people, essentially by creating artifacts at the level of fidelity that reflects the fidelity of your current thinking. And a lot of times what I've noticed is that designers will go from essentially having a conversation with their product partners, for example, and then they will just start making everything in high fidelity. But if you are still figuring out the concept behind the, the solution, like, you may not even fully know what the problem is. If you're solving the right problem directionally. You know, if, if the broad concept is the, is the way that you actually want to implement the solution. If you're still exploring, then working in high fidelity can kind of pin you down a bit too soon. And it can also lead to a situation where your leaders and conversations are focused on the wrong thing. So sometimes what I will do is I will literally just make diagrams that are like, here's like an icon of a person and here's an icon of a team. And let's talk about the relationship between these objects. Like, I just explain all the objects and how they relate to each other. And sometimes I'll do that even in this, even in the context of, like, here's the first milestone. Okay, a user can do these things. The second milestone, a user can do these things. The third, a user can do these. Is this right? You Know, like, let me just show you at the level of fidelity that we are currently thinking products, like, what we're thinking of doing. You know, this is my reaction to these things. And so because I'm removing a lot of the interface, we're able to focus the conversation at the right level. And so I, I do understand that some leaders struggle unless they can really see the visuals of an interface. And so I, I do think there are ways to get around that. And so that's something I end up talking a lot about with people. And I do have some suggestions in the book as well. I believe they mostly boil down to figuring out ways to clarify that, like, certain parts of the UI are for placement only. So, for example, can you redact text? Can you use, like, a different color and kind of overlay a different color to make it clear like, this is just an idea? Like, even if you do have to use a relatively moderate level of fidelity because, you know, your audience needs that kind of thing to understand a concept, you can still make it clear what they should be focusing on. And that is actually the point, you know, like, we are directing focus as designers. And essentially the book. And like, the way that I work, I'm trying to encourage people to use the same skills they use, as you mentioned before, for their customers. Use that for how you operate in the role. So, you know, leadership is an audience. They're your customers sometimes, and you have to figure out how to essentially solve the problem of the communication issue that's at hand. And, yeah, if you have to redact some text, but you need to still have the UI look pretty nice, you know, that kind of nets out at like, a moderate level of fidelity that explains or communicates very quickly. You know, we're just being hypothetical here. So that's what I think about a lot. Like, how do I make sure that I'm focusing my audience's energy on the right things so that we can make the right decision?

[Jason Giles]

Well, in the, The. The additional benefit of that, particularly at the staff level, is so much of that role is ensuring that other people that you're working with have a shared understanding, that foundation, and that ability to abstract and simplify the little diagrams. Here's. Here's how this object relates to this, or here's, you know, the key dynamics or the jobs to be done that this person has to be do to be able to communicate, tell a story in that context for that audience of designers that then have to go off and really, like, work through all these things. That is just an, again, Another skill. And so to spend the time developing that, both to executive audiences or other stakeholders, but also in your role as a staff designer. So it all kind of fits together.

[Kat Small]

Yeah, it's been awesome, honestly. Yeah. Like these diagrams that I've created. For me, a lot of the times when I create those kinds of diagrams, it's initially just for me to process my own understanding of what people have written in document form. So PMs will often, you know, they. They like docs, and I love. I love docs as well. I love writing. But sometimes when you write, you're. You have the definition of everything in your head, and you read the doc the way that you wrote it, but then other people can interpret it completely differently. And I find that, you know, it is helpful to have some kind of a visualization to make sure that you actually understand. But I think a lot of people assume that the visualization needs to be actual interface design, when in fact, sometimes traditional. This is the graphic designer and me talking. But like, traditional communication design can often be just as good. So if you have a diagram outlining the different concepts, then, yes, you can show the relationship of objects without having to actually start talking about how you treat the user flow, which is a whole different conversation in my mind.

[Jason Giles]

Totally. Totally. Well, Cat, we can't have a podcast episode these days without bringing up AI as a. You've just written a book, you've coached, you mentor, you know, you're a leader in your own right. What are you telling designers these days around how to be thinking about AI, you know, how you see it impacting the future of their work, and then maybe, you know, what should they be thinking about investing in in order to stay ahead? But also, don't lose that. That human connection.

[Kat Small]

Yeah, I think my. My hypothesis, because we're all still learning, is that AI, for me, feels like it is another tool in the toolkit that we can use to convey information. So it can be really helpful for doing research. For example, I definitely encourage people to, you know, use it as an. A kind of, like, light research assistant that you then review afterward. It's a really powerful intern. Essentially. I think that my. My preference and my experience has been that, like, you should always be the creative director, as people have said, because I don't think it should be doing the thinking for you. And this is definitely me parroting a bit of, like, you know, talking points and stuff, but essentially, like, as far as I know, my understanding of how it works is it's kind of like summarizing a bunch of things. So if you are using a tool that summarizes and kind of, like, creates like, an average, then you, if you're trying to use that to create new ideas, I mean, like, maybe it'll create, it'll do weird things that are maybe sometimes fun and interesting. But I'm not. I, I still feel strongly that designers are there because, like, we, we are part of this industry because we think critically and we, we take what we learn from people and we, we try new things, we experiment. So I think there's always going to be room for that, and I think that AI is a great tool that exists within our toolkit to help us experiment and learn potentially faster. Sometimes, sometimes it's also slower. So I do want to also call out, like, sometimes I've just given up and just like, you know, made a prototype the traditional way, because it actually is faster than, like, rewriting the prompt, like, seven times and being like, this is still wrong. Like, I feel like I'm like, I got the robots, you know, head in, in my hand, and I'm just like, look at it. It's wrong. And so, I don't know. I, I, I think it's, like, helpful. And I always encourage people, especially staff and above designers. We need to be at the forefront, like, learning how to incorporate these tools into our toolkit and modeling what good design looks like and what good process looks like for other designers. But to me, it's just like auto layout. Like, when auto layout came out, I was like, all right, I gotta figure out how to use this one. You know, like, they're the same to me.

[Jason Giles]

That's really funny. You are. I give you much more credit because I'm just detached. Detached, detached. I'm afraid to say that I've gotten to that point in my career where it's like, I just don't have the time to learn this particular thing.

[Kat Small]

I get it.

[Jason Giles]

I, I get it. The, one of the things that's interesting as you talk about it in context of, you know, you're being an art director and it being your intern is just that, the, the importance of maintaining the discernment, you know, and so when I talk to folks, it's like, anything that is going to feed your point of view and your criticality. Right. Like, we can't lose that. And so, you know, there's lots of interesting applications of that, of how we can actually mold it into for good.

[Kat Small]

Yeah.

[Jason Giles]

And not diluting our experience. Okay, I am going to one last real question. This whole experience of writing a book around this transition into, into staff, I would not be surprised if you had some surprises yourself. And in reflection as you went through this journey, would you. Do you have anything like that that you'd care to share?

[Kat Small]

Gosh, yeah. I mean, it was a really cool experience getting to spend the past year and change, you know, reflecting on 16 years of my career and like, speaking with so many incredible people as part of this process as well. Like, it's not just me blogging, it is in fact, you know, I also interviewed almost 30 people, some. Many designers who are individual contributors and a lot of people who manage them as well. And yeah, I think, I think the mindset shift is really the thing that I would want to underscore for people. It's the number one thing that I see when I am also teaching in the course and when I mentor people. I think a lot of people feel they, I wish the industry worked this way that they want. They wish that, for example, their manager was able to really coach them and they wish that they had, like, you know, like they were just told what to do. But the, the reality is that one of the reasons that I have been consistently successful is that I've pretty much had to trust in myself and figure out how to, you know, kind of build my intuition so that I trust that I will just figure it out. And, you know, you will be able to partner with the people around you and you can communicate and be transparent about the decisions that you're making. But the more that you trust yourself and put your perspective forward, obviously in a respectful way, that's when people see, oh, wow, like this person's a leader. So if you want to be a leader and if you want to be at the staff level, like, you do have to step into that. It is really uncomfortable at first. It's really overwhelming. And honestly, like, I was in the room with these directors and I was like, y' all trust me? Like, that's weird. Like, I'm. I still felt like a, you know, like a 12 year old. I was like, I'm a teenager. Like, why am I here? But in fact, you know, I was like 30. But yeah, I, I think that, you know, it's. It's very normal and natural to not trust your intuition, but over time, you know, once you get to that senior level, you do have a fair amount that you can pull on and you need to start making that move. So, yeah, I would really, I really just recommend, you know, considering how to build your own confidence essentially in your work and your experience. And I Do talk about part of this as well. Kind of like battling that humility and like how you make that shift in the book. But yeah, that's a big. That's one of the biggest things when I reflect on my career that I'm

[Jason Giles]

really proud of myself for doing that is amazing. Well, I congratulate you on your journey because it just, it's really inspiring. We've talked about the book a lot. It's called the Staff Designer. Where would our audience be able to pick up a copy?

[Kat Small]

Yes, you can get the staff designer on Rosenfeld Media's website. You can also, if you must, you can also get it on Amazon. I guess, you know, it's what it is. If you do get it there, please leave a review. But I definitely encourage you to get it directly from the Rosenfeld Media website. And then I believe until the end of February there's a code where you can get 20% off of the book. And it's just user testing.

[Jason Giles]

Amazing. And where would folks learn more about you should they want to connect or just get a little bit more behind the behind the scenes?

[Kat Small]

Yeah, so you can find me on LinkedIn, Catsmall, C, A T, T S, M A L L, like the adjective. Or my website is catsmall.com same thing, two T's, two L's and the first name starts with a C. And then I am also on Blue sky, but that's pretty much the only Internet stuff that I do.

[Jason Giles]

Okay. Amazing. Kat, it has been a real pleasure. It's really nice to speak to you, get to meet you. I'm incredibly excited about the book. I think this is a really valuable tool, not just for those out there that are growing their careers, but for the managers and how to support them and really help with the the challenges that those folks face. So thank you for that, thank you for spending the time and yeah, we'd love to have you back on the show sometime.

[Kat Small]

Thank you so much. I'm also a huge fan of your products, so this was really fun.

[Nathan Isaacs]

Great.

[Podcast Narrator]

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