Podcast Summary: Insights Unlocked

Episode: Why Brand Matters and How CMOs Are Playing Out of Position
Date: September 15, 2025
Host: UserTesting (Johan Reed, CMO; Nathan Isaacs, Principal Content Marketing Manager)
Guest: Joe Chernoff, B2B Marketing Leader and Executive in Residence at Battery Ventures

Episode Overview

This candid 40-minute discussion explores the evolving role of the CMO, the enduring value of brand in B2B organizations, the challenge of balancing pipeline generation and long-term strategic work, and the implications of AI for marketing leadership. Joe Chernoff, a seasoned CMO, shares career highlights, personal stories, and actionable advice for marketers feeling stuck, pressured, or disconnected from their core strengths. The episode delves into why brand work remains pivotal and how AI could help marketers break their biases and operate at a higher level.

Key Discussion Points

1. Joe Chernoff’s Marketing Journey: From PR to Content to VC Advising

• [02:04] Joe Chernoff recounts luck, relationships, and positioning as decisive factors in his path from public relations to content marketing.
• A pivotal moment: being asked about Twitter followers in a PR interview and realizing the shift to digital and social media was underway.
  • Quote: “We would all be really spooked if we knew how much luck played a role in our lives… I started in content marketing when I was trying to get out of public relations.” [02:04]
• Early advocacy for using content to drive PR coverage and credibility, leading to broader influence in marketing.

2. Marketing’s Changing Landscape: The Shift from PR to Social, Now to AI

• [04:59] Both host and guest reflect on how the move from traditional PR to social media changed marketers’ work — and how we’re now undergoing another transformation with AI.
  • Quote: “It’s changing all over again… we have another tectonic shift with AI and arguably a bigger one.” – Joe Chernoff [04:59]
• The initial impulse towards self-preservation: “Am I in the right career? Is this threatened or augmented by AI?”

3. CMOs as “Underpaid CROs” and the Pressure to Prove Value

• [06:35] Joe discusses how modern B2B CMOs tend to act like underpaid CROs (Chief Revenue Officers), focusing narrowly on revenue-adjacent KPIs like pipeline.
  • Quote: “If you show up and you live and die by exactly the same numbers as a CRO, then you essentially are in a CRO role without getting that hazard pay… Your role should be broader than that.” – Joe Chernoff [07:24]
• Root cause: Desire for credibility in front of the board; the CRO is compensated more due to hazard pay/risk and getting replaced faster if targets aren’t met.

4. Measuring Brand: The KPI Dilemma and “Spirit of the Role”

• [09:01] Why brand is hard to quantify, and how some organizations only recognize its value through indirect metrics—like changes in cost per click when a brand campaign is paused.
  • Quote: “I haven’t had to do a lot of that convincing. In fact… the best companies I worked for had a CEO who believed in brand and didn’t need the value proven to them.” [09:28]
• Memorable moment: Joe’s CEO at Pendo, Todd, calls him out for focusing too much on pipeline and losing sight of why he was really hired.
  • Quote: “‘I hired you to be focused on our brand, our story and the future of this business, shaping who we’re becoming. And you’re worried about leads. I hired you to be creative. Are you even creative?’” – Joe Chernoff [12:12]
• Insight: Marketers must balance KPIs and the broader mission — the “spirit” of the role, not just the letter.

5. “Playing Out of Position”: Why Marketers Drift from Their Strengths

• [15:15] Joe reflects on how marketers—even at high levels—self-sabotage by focusing on KPIs that aren’t their core strength or job purpose.
  • Quote: “The dirty little secret… I was playing myself out of position. Todd wasn’t playing me out of position… If I would listen to this podcast, if I'm playing out a position, am I doing it to myself?” [15:15]
• Analogy: Similar to founders trying to prove themselves in their areas of weakness to investors—focus instead on your unique strengths.

6. The Myth of the “Full-Stack Marketer” and the Two-Peg Rule

• [17:19] Joe’s advice to founders hiring a CMO: You can’t find someone great at brand, product marketing, and demand gen all at once. Pick two out of three “pegs” — the rest must be owned elsewhere.
  • Quote: “Somebody can be good at two things… But there's not three pegs.” [17:19]

7. AI’s Role: Augmenting, Not Replacing, Marketing Strategy

• [18:45] Will AI make marketers more “full-stack”? Not necessarily; it’s about augmenting the team, not the individual.
• Example: AI can make persona development more data-driven, helping marketers overcome long-held biases and assumptions.
  • Quote: “Persona development is way more art than science. It’s a bit of a guessing game… Along comes AI that can provide much more scientific ways of knowing who your ICP is.” – Joe Chernoff [18:45]
• Potential: AI could help B2B marketers understand their customers at the emotional depth that consumer brands (like Mr. Clean) have achieved.
  • Story: “Your house is clean, but for other people’s dirt.” — Joe’s example of a nuanced consumer insight rarely achieved in B2B [24:14]

8. The Limits of KPIs and the Power of Anecdotes

• [28:13] Joe argues against chasing elusive brand KPIs; instead, ensure pipeline is in place, then use stories and anecdotes to capture brand value.
  • Quote: “If pipeline is in place and you talk about brand and the role brand is playing… that’s the prerequisite… If pipeline is not in place but you have this big brand audit, people are going to call BS.” [28:13]
• Memorable story: Sending Pendo-branded sneakers to influencers leads—serendipitously—to a major account, exemplifying the unexpected ROI of brand investments.
  • Quote: “Someone said, ‘How are you going to prove this worked?’ … I said, ‘Well, I’m not. [But] by the way, I’m a size 10.’ … A month later, that person helped source a massive deal.” [30:06]

9. Maslow’s Hierarchy of Marketing Needs

• [34:49] Discusses the concept of a hierarchy, with pipeline at the base, and more sophisticated brand work only possible after repeatable pipeline is established.

10. Closing Advice: Escaping the “Pipeline Loop” and Longevity in the CMO Role

• [38:10] Joe’s hard-won wisdom: CMOs who focus only on demand gen are usually buying 18-24 months in their job, but not long-term success. Sustainable impact comes from investing in brand and vision beyond immediate pipeline needs.
  • Quote: “Even I did my best work when I wasn’t afraid of getting fired… If you want the job for five years, 10 years, you have to do [the long-term brand work].” [38:10]

Most Notable Quotes & Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote/Story | |-------------|------------------|------------------------------------------------------------------| | [02:04] | Joe Chernoff | "We would all be really spooked if we knew how much luck played a role in our lives… I started in content marketing when I was trying to get out of public relations." | | [04:59] | Joe Chernoff | “It’s changing all over again… we have another tectonic shift with AI and arguably a bigger one.” | | [07:24] | Joe Chernoff | "If you show up and you live and die by exactly the same numbers as a CRO, then you essentially are in a CRO role without getting that hazard pay… Your role should be broader than that." | | [12:12] | Joe Chernoff | "'I hired you to be focused on our brand, our story and the future of this business… And you’re worried about leads. I hired you to be creative. Are you even creative?'" | | [15:15] | Joe Chernoff | “The dirty little secret… I was playing myself out of position. Todd wasn’t playing me out of position… If I would listen to this podcast, if I'm playing out a position, am I doing it to myself?” | | [17:19] | Joe Chernoff | "Somebody can be good at two things… But there's not three pegs." | | [18:45] | Joe Chernoff | “Persona development is way more art than science… Along comes AI that can provide much more scientific ways of knowing who your ICP is.” | | [24:14] | Joe Chernoff | "The challenge they faced was selling a cleaning supply to people who didn’t want to acknowledge their house was dirty… so the campaign was, 'Your house is clean but for other people’s dirt.'" | | [28:13] | Joe Chernoff | “If pipeline is in place and you talk about brand … that’s the prerequisite… If pipeline is not in place but you have this big brand audit, people are going to call BS.” | | [30:06] | Joe Chernoff | Story of branded sneakers influencing a major account, despite lack of direct KPIs. | | [38:10] | Joe Chernoff | “Even I did my best work when I wasn’t afraid of getting fired… If you want the job for five years, 10 years, you have to do [the long-term brand work].” |

Segment Timestamps

• [02:04] – Joe’s origin story: Luck, relationships, and the move from PR to content
• [04:59] – PR to social to AI: Changing tectonics in marketing
• [06:35] – The “underpaid CRO” trap for CMOs
• [09:28] – Proving the value of brand to boards and CEOs
• [12:12] – On playing out of position; the “creative” confrontation
• [15:15] – Self-sabotage and the importance of playing to your strengths
• [17:19] – The myth of being “full-stack,” and pegs-holes analogy
• [18:45] – How AI changes persona development and CMO impact
• [24:14] – Lessons from consumer brands: “Your house is clean but for other people’s dirt”
• [28:13] – Why most brand work and KPIs are less tangible; power of stories
• [30:06] – The branded sneaker anecdote and serendipitous value of brand
• [34:49] – Maslow’s hierarchy of marketing needs: pipeline to systems to brand
• [38:10] – On escaping the short-term “pipeline loop” for true marketing leadership

Takeaways for Marketers, Product, and CX Leaders

• Recognize the limits of what you can prove. Don’t sacrifice the “spirit” of your role as a marketing leader just to chase immediately measurable pipeline metrics.
• Don’t let yourself be boxed in. Many leaders “play themselves out of position”; it’s up to you to assert what unique strengths you bring.
• Brand is a long game. When pipeline is stable, brand investments—not just campaigns—drive future growth and personal longevity in the CMO role.
• AI is an amplifier, not a silver bullet. Use it to round out your team, test your biases, and gain new insights, especially for persona development.
• Stories resonate more than spreadsheets. Anecdotes and real relationships often move the business more than any single KPI can show.
• Systematic approaches inspire trust. Consistent, repeatable systems for pipeline free you to pursue long-term work and earn brand trust.

Where to Connect

• Joe Chernoff: Find him on LinkedIn at Joe Chernoff
• Show notes & resources: usertesting.com/podcast

Tone and Style

The conversation is candid, thoughtful, and often self-deprecating—offering honest wisdom gained through wins and mistakes alike. Both host and guest use memorable stories, practical takeaways, and direct talk to demystify the CMO role and the challenges of modern marketing leadership.