Anthony Scaramucci on Trump and the Threat to American Democracy (Part Two)

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Anthony Scaramucci on Trump and the Threat to American Democracy (Part Two)

Podcast: Intelligence Squared
Host: Emily Maitlis
Guest: Anthony Scaramucci
Date: October 7, 2025
Location: Union Chapel, London

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Episode Overview

This live discussion, part two of the Intelligence Squared event, features Anthony Scaramucci, ex-White House Communications Director and prominent Trump critic, in conversation with journalist Emily Maitlis. They examine the fallout from Trump’s second presidency, the dynamics of American political culture, the rise of authoritarian tendencies, and threats to US democracy. The episode navigates Trump’s political strategies, his hold over the Republican Party, challenges facing Democratic opposition, and the role of recent high-profile tragedies in shaping America's political landscape.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump's Projected Authoritarianism and Narrative Control

• Projection & Scapegoating: Scaramucci underscores Trump’s habit of accusing opponents of that which he himself does (“He’s projecting. Right. [...] You find scapegoats. You divide others. You project what you're doing. You accuse the other side of doing it.” – [03:25], Scaramucci).
• Comparison to Nazi Playbook: Drawing on Lawrence Rees’ book, Scaramucci relates Trump’s tactics to 1930s authoritarian strategies.
• Dehumanization: Trump is described as profoundly detached, treating individuals as “objects in his field of vision” ([05:18], Scaramucci).

2. The Dilemma of Naming and Shaming: Is Trump a Fascist?

• Futility of Labels: Maitlis asks if calling Trump a fascist helps or hurts. Scaramucci argues his core base is “immune” to such terms and that Democrats’ own weaknesses have contributed to his power ([05:46], Scaramucci).
• Democratic Failures: Criticism of Democratic candidate choices is highlighted as a key factor in Trump’s electoral successes ([06:20], Scaramucci).

3. The Kamala Harris Challenge: Risk Aversion and Missed Opportunities

• On Harris’s 2024 Run: Scaramucci details Harris's disadvantage in the 2024 race—limited time, inherited staff, and a more famous opponent. He describes Harris as “well-prepared” but lacking willingness to take political risks essential to win ([08:17], Scaramucci).
• Quote: "Her biggest issue was not wanting to take the risks that you need to take if you want to be president. So if you want to be the American president, guess what? You gotta take risks. You gotta throw the ball." ([08:48], Scaramucci)
• Debate Performance: Harris’s debate performance and her reluctance to appear on adversarial media (like Fox News) are discussed as signs of political caution ([09:37], Scaramucci).
• Importance of Bold Choices: Critique of Harris's supposed reasoning for not picking Pete Buttigieg as VP; Scaramucci emphasizes the need to “take the risk” and choose the most capable partner over identity concerns ([10:28], Scaramucci).

4. The Limits of the Progressive Left, and the “Culture War”

• US Political Middle Ground: Scaramucci warns that a sharp leftward turn (with figures like Mamdani or AOC) would render Democrats “out of power for three decades” because of the religious and conservative orientation of key US states ([12:17], Scaramucci).
• Trump’s Mastery as “Napoleon of the Culture War”: Trump is praised for his unique ability to read and manipulate political culture, especially around issues of religion and identity ([10:55], Scaramucci).

5. Trump’s Rule-Breaking and Immunity to Accountability

• Media & Lies: Scaramucci explains how Trump thrives by repeating falsehoods, creating a narrative immunity among supporters ("Trump has figured out, and he said this to Leslie Stahl on 60 Minutes, if I say the lie and I say it again over and over and over again, there's a group of people that are going to be with me." – [15:03], Scaramucci).
• Lack of Shame, Lack of Checks: Trump’s apparent immunity to embarrassment or contradiction is critical to his political dominance ([14:20], Scaramucci).
• Challenge for the Media: Interviewers struggle between insisting on fact-checking every lie or letting him misinform unchecked ([16:50], Scaramucci).

6. Scaramucci’s White House Firing: A Story of Ego and Insecurity

• Personal Anecdote: Scaramucci recounts that his firing was due to him correcting Trump on veto power in front of others, thus wounding Trump's ego, not for public comments about Steve Bannon ([17:47], Scaramucci & Maitlis exchange).
• On Steve Bannon: Scaramucci delivers a memorable, profanity-laden critique of Bannon's influence and ideology ([17:12], Scaramucci).
• Loss of Restraint in Trump’s Inner Circle: He notes the absence of moderating influences like General Kelly and Jared Kushner compared to Trump’s first term, making the 2025 White House more extreme ([21:56], Scaramucci).

7. Jeffrey Epstein Files and Political Risks for Trump

• Epstein Connections: Scaramucci admits knowing Epstein socially, noting how widespread such connections are in New York professional circles ([25:19], Scaramucci).
• Trump’s Handling of Epstein: Trump’s base remains loyal regardless, convinced he’s their champion in the culture war. Recent tragedies have distracted from the Epstein story ([26:00], Scaramucci).
• Elon Musk’s Role: Trump was reportedly “scared” by Musk’s public insinuations about the Epstein files but successfully neutralized Musk as a political threat ([26:44], Scaramucci).
• Suppression Tactics: Trump and allies have worked to keep the most damaging Epstein records from public release, including leveraging political deals with legislators ([28:09], Scaramucci).

8. The Aftermath of the Charlie Kirk Assassination

• Use as Martyr: Kirk’s death is already being politicized; whether his wife Erica can sustain his movement is uncertain ([29:20], Scaramucci).
• Quote: “Her message was a healing and forgiving message. And her message was, hey, guys, we got to figure out a way to dial down the rhetoric. We're Americans. And then Trump goes on, and he's taken lighter fluid into the situation.” ([30:04], Scaramucci)
• Political Impact: Kirk’s death has reinvigorated Trump’s base and fundraising, potentially influencing the upcoming midterms ([32:00], Scaramucci).
• Fleeting Attention Spans: Scaramucci remarks on the rapidity with which political scandals fade, referencing the “2weeksoldnews.com” site ([30:30], Scaramucci).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Trump’s Narrative Genius:
  • “Trump is the Napoleon of the culture war. He can see the battlefield... and that’s why he was consistently a victor on the battlefield.” ([10:55], Scaramucci)
• On Democratic Leadership:
  • “The best thing that Donald Trump has had going for him through his political journey so far are the Democrats because they put up Hillary Clinton... she was a weak candidate.” ([05:46], Scaramucci)
• On Risk and Leadership:
  • “If you want to be the American president, guess what? You gotta take risks. You gotta throw the ball.” ([08:48], Scaramucci)
• On Trump’s Media Strategies:
  • “He has immunized everybody to him... Through his lack of shame, he has steamrolled everybody.” ([14:20], Scaramucci)
• On His White House Firing:
  • “You can’t tell him stuff that he doesn’t know in front of other people because he’s so insecure. He’s gonna think that you're gonna be in the chapel someday telling people...” ([18:04], Scaramucci)
• On Steve Bannon:
  • “God made him so motherfucking ugly to save the civilization from Steve Bannon.” ([17:12], Scaramucci)
• On Kirk as a Martyr:
  • “What Trump wants from Kirk is to last long enough into the midterms... they are galvanized again and they're raising a lot of money.” ([32:00], Scaramucci)

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Timeline & Timestamps

• [02:50] Trump’s projection and narrative after Charlie Kirk’s murder
• [05:16] Trump’s detachment from human suffering and treatment of allies
• [05:46] Challenges for Democrats: past candidates and the culture war
• [07:14] Kamala Harris: strengths, failures, campaign limitations
• [08:17] Importance of risk-taking for presidential candidates
• [10:07] Kamala Harris’s VP dilemma and the pitfalls of “wokeism”
• [12:17] The risk of moving the Democrats to the far left
• [14:20] Trump’s immunity to shame, manipulation of the media, and lies
• [16:51] Scaramucci details the true reason for his White House firing
• [17:47] Scaramucci’s Steve Bannon story and critique
• [21:56] Consequences of losing moderating pressures inside Trump's White House
• [25:19] Scaramucci on Epstein files, New York elites, and club membership
• [26:44] Musk’s challenge, Trump’s suppression tactics
• [29:20] Kirk’s death: potential as martyr, Trump’s reaction, and political implications
• [30:30] Fleeting nature of scandals and public attention
• [32:00] Kirk’s legacy and impact on the midterms

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Conclusion

This episode offers a candid and biting critique of Trump’s political methodology, the tribulations of Democratic opposition, and the evolution of American political conflict into an entrenched culture war. Scaramucci’s insider stories provide a rare window into Trump’s White House, while his warnings about the erosion of democratic norms carry an urgent, personal tone.

Listeners gain a nuanced understanding of why Trump’s tactics are effective, why the opposition keeps faltering, and what risks loom over American democracy heading into another turbulent electoral cycle.

Transcript

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[Anthony Scaramucci]

You do you listen to.

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[Anthony Scaramucci]

Or.

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[Producer Hannah Kaye]

Learn [e-mail] TradeSmart welcome to Intelligence Squared, where great minds meet. I'm producer Mia Sorrenti for this episode. We're rejoining for Part two of our live event with Anthony Scaramucci. The former White House communications director turned outspoken Trump critic joined Emily Maitlis on the Intelligence Squared stage in September for a straight conversation on the fallout from Trump's second presidency. If you haven't heard Part one, we recommend jumping back an episode and getting up to speed. And if you'd like to listen to this episode in full and ad free, why not consider becoming an Intelligence squared [e-mail] membership or tap the IQ2 extra button on Apple. Now let's rejoin the conversation with Emily Maitlis and Anthony Scaramucci live at Union Chapel in London.

[Emily Maitlis]

Following the murder of Charlie Kirk, Trump has been on a mission to shut down what he calls a radical left terrorist network. And he says that the left is full of people using words like racist or fascist or Nazi. So it's no wonder that people Keep getting attacked. This has become a real conundrum, I guess, for people who think that he is acting in authoritarian, fascist way, but don't know how to call that out without then becoming a target for his aura.

[Anthony Scaramucci]

So that's part of his genius. Yeah, right. Unfortunately, it is. He's projecting. Right. I have a, you know, in addition to the rest is politics us, I have a smaller podcast called Open Book where I interview authors because I'm a little bit of a bookworm. And there's an author by the name of Lawrence Rees, and he wrote a book called the Nazi mind the 12 characteristics of what the Playbook Was for the Nazis To Create Their Rise in Germany. And what do you do? You find scapegoats. You divide others. You project what you're doing. You accuse the other side of doing it. And there's a whole list. There's 12 characteristics. And if you look through the list, you know, these guys are, I mean, 10 out of 12, 11 out of 12 on the list. So you're in that conundrum. And they're, you know, these poor people were killed in a Mormon church over the weekend. I don't know if you guys saw that. Rather than, you know, offering sympathy to the victims, Trump put out on Truth Social, more white Christians assassinated, you know, from the leftist hate. In the meantime, the person that shot them had none of that profile or none of that configuration. So Trump is going to double down on that narrative. You know Charlie Kirk, and I know Charlie. I can tell you my stories about him if you want to hear them. But Charlie Kirk is killed. One of the reporters turns to Trump and says, sir, your friend died. He was assassinated. How are you doing today? Trump says, fine, fine. Did you see the ballroom that we're building over here on the side of the White House? The level of detachment towards other human beings is remarkable.

[Emily Maitlis]

But just go back to this whole question.

[Anthony Scaramucci]

He doesn't think of you as a human being. You're an object in his field of vision.

[Emily Maitlis]

But is it helpful to those who oppose what Trump is doing now to give it a name, to call it fascism, to call it authoritarianism, to say, you know, this is the kind of behavior of the 1930s or whatever? Or do you think. Do you think we're just numb to that now? Do you think we're kind of immune to that? I mean, the way Trump phrases it, you then become part of the problem.

[Anthony Scaramucci]

So I think his base is immune to it. But remember, he's polling right now at 37%. That's his approval rating. If we're going to get into Vice President Harris at some point in the conversation, understand that the best thing that Donald Trump has had going for him through his political journey so far are the Democrats because they put up Hillary Clinton. She was in a big fight with Bernie Sanders. They rigged it for her. So much so that Debbie Wasserman Schultz got fired on the eve of the Democratic Convention. You remember all this?

[Emily Maitlis]

I do. I also remember the part that Russia played in leaking the emails at the time. Right.

[Anthony Scaramucci]

The leak of the emails and obviously the big fight over that. We can talk about that as well. But she was a weak candidate. He was not a popular figure, but she was a weak candidate. And remember, she got the popular vote, but he beat her in the swing states and won the Electoral College second time around. Joe Biden, who beat him, was clearly impaired. He was clearly sunsetting. There's a lot of documented evidence. Why don't you come out of the race in September of 2023? Why are you waiting? Okay. He has this disastrous debate where he doesn't know where. And Trump had a great line in that debate. Trump said, I don't know what he said and I don't think he even knows what he said. And that was a. I mean, that was a death blow to Joe Biden's political career.

[Emily Maitlis]

You were helping Kamala Harris.

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[Emily Maitlis]

Debate with Trump last time around.

[Anthony Scaramucci]

I spent six hours with her and her team.

[Emily Maitlis]

Did you feel.

[Anthony Scaramucci]

And I went to the. I was in the spin room for her after the debate with Gavin Newsom.

[Emily Maitlis]

And what did you feel when you were approaching her? Did you. Did you think this is somebody who could do it? Or do you think this is somebody who's not going to do it, but I'm going to help them.

[Anthony Scaramucci]

So the. Well, here's what I would say. The assassination attempt at Butler and the visual photography from that definitely helped Donald Trump. You just have to accept that it did. And then secondarily, she's entering the race with 107 days. When Hillary Clinton ran against Donald Trump, he was one of the top 50 to 100 most famous people in the world. When Vice President Harris ran against him, he was by far the most famous person in the world. She was at such a material disadvantage and she wasn't an incumbent president. And you gave her 107 days. And then, Emily, the other thing you did to her was she had to use Joe Biden's staff. She didn't have any time to pursue.

[Emily Maitlis]

She fired a few.

[Anthony Scaramucci]

I think she did, but she was operating the campaign headquarters out of Delaware, not her home state of California, with her people. So this was insurmountable odds. But when I met with her, I did think she could do it because she's very well prepared, she's very well organized, despite the rhetoric about her. She was attorney general in California. She was the senator in California and the sitting vice president. And she was a very well prepared, very organized person. And I thought she did a great job in the debate. But her biggest issue was not wanting to take the risks that you need to take if you want to be president. So if you want to be the American president, guess what? You got to take risks. You got to throw the ball. Jack Kennedy. You guys are telling me I'm Catholic and the Pope is going to run America. Let me give a controversial speech to refute that. People in this room may remember Reverend Jeremiah Wright. He was Barack Obama's reverend. He had said some very bad racist things in the church. Obama had to go out and address the fact that he was likely going to be the first black president of the United States. He took an exogenous risk. You have to take these risks if you want to be the person.

[Emily Maitlis]

So spell that out. Are you just talking about the Joe Rogan podcast?

[Anthony Scaramucci]

No, it's a lot of different things. So she needed to go on Fox News. She had 107 days to campaign. She needed to be on Fox News 108 of the 107 days.

[Emily Maitlis]

Let me ask you something.

[Anthony Scaramucci]

And she wouldn't do it because she didn't want to be pinned by them.

[Emily Maitlis]

So in her book.

[Anthony Scaramucci]

But Pete Buttigieg was doing it every single day and just beating them left and right. And she had the. Trust me, she beat Trump in that debate. She had the verbal dexterity to beat those guys.

[Emily Maitlis]

So in her book, she admits that she wanted to pick Pete Buttigieg. If she could have picked him as her vp, she would have done. But she says that America wasn't ready for a black woman and a gay man. Is she right?

[Anthony Scaramucci]

No, but she may be right. But let me tell you why that decision making is wrong. That's the risk.

[Emily Maitlis]

Right?

[Anthony Scaramucci]

Okay. You gotta take the risk. Cause he's the best player on the field. Okay, Think about what she just did. She just fell into the trap of wokeism for Donald Trump. So wait a minute. You're gonna pick somebody that's inferior and less talented than Pete Buttigieg so that you can fill the box as it relates to the stuff that we're talking about in the culture war. Remember this, ladies and gentlemen, Donald Trump is the Napoleon of the culture war. He can see the battlefield. If you remember your biographies of Napoleon. He could see the entire battlefield. He could anticipate where the moves were. He was anticipating moves even before the generals were thinking of the moves. And that's why he was consistently a victor on the battlefield. Trump is the Napoleon of the culture war. He can see what they're doing. He knows how to trigger them, and they flail every time they respond. So she should have picked Buttigieg. That would have been an example of good risk taking for her.

[Emily Maitlis]

Right. So I don't want to litigate 24. But if you're looking forward, who is that person now? Who is the match for that now? I mean, Gavin Newsom has kind of reinvented himself as the sort of chief troller, the sort of guy who will take the thank you for your attention tweets to Trump. I guess you've got Mamdani, who looks like he's going to win New York as mayor in November, who's just taken trying to take the whole party to the left. Very kind of punchy, very upbeat, very unapologetic. I mean, I know somebody who put a five quid bet on Clooney, which is either too little or too much, depending on, you know, whether you think there's any chance of that, of him coming into or somebody coming into the. Where do you think the threat comes in?

[Anthony Scaramucci]

There's a couple things there. So I would say that if they go with Mandani or the AOC crowd, they'll be out of power for three decades because the United States and this is unique.

[Emily Maitlis]

But isn't that the risk? Isn't that the kind of risk you're just talking about? Like, he feels wildly popular, but he.

[Anthony Scaramucci]

Feels wildly popular to attract segment of the population. But to win the presidency, you've got to win those swing states. You've got to go into those states and remember something about the United States which is different from Europe and the uk this is a church or a former church. They don't use former churches for conferences or presentations in the United States. It's a very religious country. And you know that. You've traveled the United states. I did 71 campaign stops with Trump. We have a Bible Belt and then we literally have a buckle of the Bible Belt. And these are the most intense, fanatical orthodox people. And they are conservative, even if they have gay family members and even if there's a lot of hypocrisy and the orthodoxy of their Christian conservatism. They are conservative. And so those people. Trump is right about this. Trump said, I hope Mondami wins because he'll be the greatest gift that the Democrats can give to the Republicans. But you can see it's a different case.

[Emily Maitlis]

None of this applies to Trump. I mean, that's the, this is the thing, right? So, you know, Kamala's got to take risks. Mamdani's kind of two left the country. They weren't like somebody who doesn't understand the Bible Belt. And yet none of those rules apply to Trump. Like, how does Trump get the Bible belt? How does Trump get the buckle? How does Trump managed to be the person, you know, just going back to her book, she's like, I'm the one that gets accused of word salad. Like, have you listened to one of his speeches with the sharks and the windmills and the, you know, escalators? And I'm the one that gets accused of word salad. And she's got a point, right? That somehow the rules are completely different for him.

[Anthony Scaramucci]

Well, okay, so they're not completely different for him, but he's done something which people will be writing about 50 years years from now is he's immunized everybody to him. So when Emily Maitlis or George Stephanopoulos or Jake Tapper, you pick, the journalist went after Trump and accused him of the word salad. And the Washington Post said Trump is on track to tell 40,000 lies in a four year period of time. This term he told 34,000 lies, according to the Washington Post, in the first term. And so Trump has figured out, and he said this to Leslie Stahl on 60 Minutes, if I say the lie and I say it again over and over and over again, there's a group of people that are going to be with me and are going to believe the lie. Moreover, Trump has also figured out that the culture war for the people that I'm describing and the people I visited on those 71 paint stocks is real. When Fox News gets out there and says, you're not allowed to say Merry Christmas anymore, you can only say a Happy Holidays. This explodes the mind of these orthodox Christian conservatives. In the meantime, I've never heard anybody say Happy Holidays. Everyone says Merry Christmas to me. But that's a narrative that comes off of Fox. When they play these cultural tropes, Trump understands every piece of the music, every musical score that's being played. Trump is the conductor. He can lie with impunity. You guys in the media, me, we call him out on the lie. He doesn't care. He keeps moving. People like Kamala Harris who have like a shame gene like normal people, or have like a self reflective gene, like normal people are like, oh, wow, maybe I said a word salad on the View, not Trump. So you have to understand what he did. Through his lack of shame, he has steamrolled everybody. You have colleagues that you used to work with, or there's people in America. When I'm interviewing Trump, what do I do? He's going to. I'm going to ask him a question, he's going to say a lie. Do I counterfactually check him? And so now I spend the entire interview counterfactually checking him, or should I let him speak?

[Emily Maitlis]

Could you do.

[Anthony Scaramucci]

Caroline, what's going on?

[Emily Maitlis]

Could you do your old job? Would he be, would he be able to stand up in the West?

[Anthony Scaramucci]

That was the big problem. See, people don't even remember why I got fired, right? They think I got fired.

[Emily Maitlis]

Oh, I.

[Anthony Scaramucci]

Do you think I. Oh, yeah, no, no. You think I got fired for the New Yorker thing, right? You think I got fired because I said Steve was. I can't say it in a church, but I said some bad about Steve.

[Emily Maitlis]

Which was, you know, what we did.

[Anthony Scaramucci]

Steve Bannon was like the worst guy on the planet, by the way. Do you know why I believe in God? We're in a church. You guys want to know why I believe in God? Because Steve Bannon is articulate, he's charismatic, he's a historian. But God made him so motherfucking ugly to save the civilization from Steve Bannon. You've never met a worse person than Steve Bannon, okay? He's worse than Trump because he actually understands what he wants to do with the white supremacy. Trump really doesn't fully understand it, but I got fired. You guys think I got fired for the New Yorker magazine?

[Emily Maitlis]

No. It was Trump, wasn't it?

[Anthony Scaramucci]

What was it?

[Emily Maitlis]

I thought you fell out with Jared and Ivanka, wasn't it?

[Anthony Scaramucci]

No. The reason I got. Well, the reason I got fired, Jared is the one that told me I was getting fired is I was in the Cabinet Room with Trump and Trump wanted to veto the Russian sanctions bill. You remember all the stuff that happened, all the Russian nonsense, the email that were divulged, Trump wanted to veto the bill. I was sitting in the Cabinet Room with him with three other people, and I said something to him which I thought was a normal thing to say. I said, Mr. President, you can't veto that bill. He said, what are you Talking about, I'm the president, of course I can veto the bill. The Russians didn't help me, and I'm going to veto the bill. I said, well, you can't veto the bill because Paul Ryan is on your team. He passed it in the house, and Mitch McConnell on your team passed it in the Senate. If you go to veto the bill, they're going to call Chuck Schumer. They're going to get the 17 votes necessary to override your veto. He looked me straight in the face. They can't do that. I'm the president, okay? That's eighth grade social studies, ladies and gentlemen. So I looked at him, I said, well, they can do that. He then picked up the phone and called Don McCann because he didn't believe me. He was the White House general counsel. McCann told him that he could, you know, that they could override his veto. He looked at me, hung up the phone, didn't say a word to me. An hour later, he signed it. He told Jared Kushner that I embarrassed him in the Cabinet Room and he wanted to get rid of me. And Jared said to me, you can't tell him stuff that he doesn't know in front of other people because he's so insecure. He's gonna think that you're gonna be in the chapel someday telling people, okay, and you're gonna be really upset about it. You can't tell him. So I said, you gotta be kidding me. I'm trying to help the guy out. He said, listen, it's touch and go here. He's probably gonna fire you. So the weekend came, and I was still good. Can I tell everybody how I knew I got fired? So in the White House, they issue you a bat phone, which is this, like, super encrypted phone, because it's got all kinds of anti spyware on it. And you're supposed to only call people like Mike Pence or the president from the bat phone. I mean, Pete Hegseth obviously did not get that memo. Okay? So now I've got the bat phone in my hand. It's 6:00am in the morning, and I turn the bat phone on. It goes on, but there's no text messages coming into the bat phone. I said, okay, let me see if I can call out on the bat phone. Can't make a call from the bat phone. They cut my air supply at the White house. So at 6:00am I knew it was fired. I got fired at 9:30. And General Kelly, by the way, who, you know, I'm very close friends with Kelly fired me. It was a brutal session meeting and him and you know, I still socialize with them. I just made a donation to the Marine Scholarship foundation on behalf of his wife. General Kelly is a four star general, 40 year Marine veteran. He's also a gold star family member. He lost his son in the golf wars, stepped on a landmine and died instantaneously. His son, I mean, American hero. 18 months as the White House chief of staff and you've interviewed him and you know him and you know General Kelly did more in those 18 months to protect the country than anybody. And now we're in a situation where there's no General Kellys in the room. And by the way, even though I fell out with Jared Kushner, you're correct. Jared Kushner was like a hockey goalie or a football goaltender blocking insane shots coming in from Donald Trump. All of these policies that Trump is imparting today are things he wanted to do in 2018. He wanted to do these things in 2019. They were stopped by rational, more establishment oriented Republicans.

[Emily Maitlis]

Funnily enough, I was down to interview John Kelly in November of 2019. I was just about to head off when I got a call from the palace. So that interview never happened. Apologies to John Kelly. We have got half an hour and I'm very.

[Anthony Scaramucci]

Who did you interview from the ballot?

[Emily Maitlis]

Oh my God, I forget now.

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[Emily Maitlis]

I want to get lots of questions in. I'm going to start with the ones that are coming in from online. Let's. So let me just start with Sophie's, because this is something that we would have come onto. But let's say from Sophie, what do you make of the latest on the Epstein files? You've met Jeffrey Epstein?

[Anthony Scaramucci]

Yep. I knew Jeff Epstein and most people in New York that are at a certain level. I'd interacted with him at some point. I told Emily backstage he was actually a member of a social club that I was the membership chair of when he first went to jail. And so there was a big hullabaloo about whether or not he could stay in the membership. And so we made a decision to have a five year sort of suspension to let him stay in the membership. But he ended up getting rearrested, you know, shortly thereafter.

[Emily Maitlis]

So just explain why is Joe battling this so badly? It seems to be the one real kind of weak spot that he can, he cannot.

[Anthony Scaramucci]

I don't think he thinks he's handling it badly. I think he's decided that his base has nowhere to go. He's won the culture war with a good 40% of the country. And so when he says he could choose somebody on Fifth Avenue and they'll stay with Him. It has to do with the culture war. They see him as the last great white hope for them. And so he feels that he's the leader of a full on personality cult and he can do whatever he wants. It can be arbitrary and capricious. It doesn't matter.

[Emily Maitlis]

What do you think he's scared of now? I mean, genuinely, what do you think he's scared of? We've seen the birthday, but we've seen the illustrations.

[Anthony Scaramucci]

He was scared of Elon Musk, but Elon Musk put out that tweet that you're in the Epstein files. Have a nice day, djt. Okay? He was shitting a brick, okay? That diaper that he wears definitely had some remains in his underpants because he knows that Elon Musk knows he knows, okay? And he knows that a lot of people know. But the question is, can he contain it? And so not well reported. He sent J.D. vance out to see Musk and said, please don't start the America Party. And J.D. mans is the quote, unquote, heir apparent to MAGA. And you'll be back in with me and MAGA. And Trump is promising not to go after your businesses or do anything untoward to you or X or SpaceX or anything that you're working on. And so if you notice, the America Party, which was filed for, there's been no action on it. So. So Trump has got Musk contained. He's also gone to the Department of Justice, so he's got Marjorie Taylor Greene and a few others, I think, Nancy Mace for that matter. These are hardcore MAGA women in the House that have gone through the file and they've left the room in tears because of the accounts of what went on with the victims. And so what's at issue is how deep is Trump in the media mix with Epstein? And it's pretty clear that he's very deep in the mix, but he's done a very good job of suppressing those files. And while Charlie Kirk, unfortunately, this great tragedy with Charlie Kirk, when they had the week of Charlie Kirk's mourning and the eventual funeral, and Emily knows this, The Senate passed 51 to 49 that they would not divulge the Epstein Epstein files. The Charlie Kirk thing has moved the zeitgeist away from the Epstein files for Trump's base. Where the problem was going to happen for Donald Trump is the divergence from his base. But he's done a masterful job of keeping them in line. Okay, we're not going to have any more wars. No more forever wars. But we're going to drop bunker buster bombs in Iran. You see what I'm saying?

[Emily Maitlis]

Yeah.

[Anthony Scaramucci]

So he's done a great job of.

[Emily Maitlis]

Keeping just on the Charlie Kirk one. There's another question that's just come in. How much will Kirk be used as an effective symbol and martyr? Will that last or fade?

[Anthony Scaramucci]

So it's a great question, and it will depend on Erica Kirk, and it'll depend on what she's able to do with that movement. Coretta Scott King was a very nice person, but she did not have the evangelical qualities. Martin Luther King's way of Martin Luther King Jr. So when he was assassinated, they said, well, she's going to take the mantle of leadership. But the movement faltered as a result of not having the right leader at the top. So I thought her speech, you know, my heart goes out to her for that speech. I don't know if. Did you see the speech? I mean, she gave a very good speech. And of course, Trump gets on after her. So I disagree with everything she says.

[Emily Maitlis]

I hate my opponents.

[Anthony Scaramucci]

And then everybody starts laughing. And that. That's Trump. That's the personality cult of Trump. But her message was a healing and forgiving message. And her message was, hey, guys, we got to figure out a way to dial down the rhetoric. We're Americans. And then Trump goes on, and he's taken lighter fluid into the situation. So. So it will last longer than people think. There was a great news site. It died during COVID but there was a great News site called 2weeksoldnews.com. And if you went to the website, you could see what the hysteria was two weeks ago. Oh, wow, that was setting my hair on fire two weeks ago. Now, I don't care about it. The website died during COVID But the point that I'm making is that two weeks from now, there'll be another thing that we're talking about, right? Like, you know, we're probably not going to talk about Peter Manelson, but I would not have fired Peter Manelson. That would have blown over. And he was tight, he was key. Had gotten himself. And this is a very hard thing to do because I know these people. He had gotten himself in the inner sanctum with Trump. He could call Trump and he could get into the study off of the Oval Office to have lunch with Trump like that. And that was valuable to the UK Government. I would not have fired him. I understand the pressure of.

[Emily Maitlis]

Would you put him in there in the first place?

[Anthony Scaramucci]

Well, you know, I know Peter a long time. I don't know I don't know the answer to that because I'm not the Prime Minister. I can only assess his role from the start date of him as the UK ambassador and the effect that he was having. He was very effective. He also got, with Starmer's help, a tariff deal done before everybody else at a 10% levy, which was better than the rest of the European Economic Union, better than most countries. But he had the inside track. I understand why he got fired, I understand the fury around it and I understand all that. But it's two weeks later and people are not as focused on it as they once were. But Kirk will last longer. What Trump wants from Kirk is to last long enough into the midterms because Trump was looking at the big beautiful spending bill. If you had said to me, february, is Trump going to win the midterms? Likely yes. Then they dropped the big beautiful spending bill. And then if you asked me the same question, likely no. But now after the Kirk assassination, they are galvanized again and they're raising a lot of money. So Trump is going to, with his team, try to figure out, to lengthen the arc of that narrative into the middle terms. I don't think it'll get that far, but I think it'll get farther than people think.

[Producer Hannah Kaye]

Thanks for listening to Intelligence Squared. This episode was produced by Hannah Kaye and it was edited by Mark Roberts. For ad free episodes and full length recordings. Become a [e-mail] membership and to join us at future events head to intelligencesquared.com attend to see our full live events program. You've been listening to Intelligence Square Squared. Thanks for joining us.

[Jimmy Fallon / T-Mobile Advertiser]

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[Jimmy Fallon / T-Mobile Advertiser]

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[Emily Maitlis]

Nice.

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[Jimmy Fallon / T-Mobile Advertiser]

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[Anthony Scaramucci]

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[Jimmy Fallon / T-Mobile Advertiser]

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