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- [00:04]
A
Welcome to Intelligence Squared, where great minds meet. I'm Coco Kahn, journalist, author and host of Podsave the UK. And on today's episode, in partnership with WaterAid, we're celebrating the world's most vital resource, the starting point for health, education, livelihoods and the environment. WaterAid's mission is based on the fact that clean water is the most powerful way to build a fairer, more sustainable future. And, and since 1981, they have reached 30 million people. Because when water flows, so does opportunity. In the second episode of our two part series, we dig into what it takes to build climate resilient water systems. From on the ground initiatives to the policies needed to create a more equitable water secure future for everyone. To help unpack this, I'm joined by two guests. First up is Helen Rumford, WaterAid's lead policy analyst for climate policy and campaigns. She focuses on inclusive sustainable change and climate justice. I'm also joined by Vera Klotchin, WaterAid's Climate and Environment lead, who brings over a decade of experience working on climate resilient water systems around the world. Welcome, Helen and Vera.
- [01:15]
B
Thanks, thanks for having us. Great to be here.
- [01:17]
A
When I was thinking about interviewing you guys today, my mind was reminded of that phrase of water always finds the lowest point. And so people talk about it a lot on Instagram in the wellness spaces, in this idea that we retreat to, to our most basic needs. We retreat to our most low selves at times of struggle and stress. And actually when we're thinking about water, we have to think about struggle and stress. There is mounting pressure from climate change, from population growth, from global development, and there it is, water sitting at that lowest point. So it sustains communities, it powers economies, it determines who thrives. So really what I want to do is understand how climate resilient water, sanitation and hygiene systems, AKA wash, are essential for survival and why investing in this water is one of the most powerful ways to secure a sustainable, equitable and water secure future for everyone, AKA for water to find us at our highest point. So let's just start off, how dependent is modern life? You know, I'm thinking from households to hospitals, to livelihoods on clean water.
- [02:20]
B
Yeah, it's a great starting point and I mean, name me anything, Coco and I could tell you how it relies on water. It is really like the foundation to pretty much all life on earth, all systems. It regulates our climate and our weather, it powers our trade, our industries, we get our energy from it. It's the foundation of all our natural habitats, it maintains biodiversity. So it really underpins absolutely everything. It's the blue thread that connects it all. It's vital not just for our drinking, for our cooking, our cleaning, but it's also essential for preventing and fighting diseases. So if you look at something as simple as diarrhoea, diarrhea caused by unsafe water toilets, hygiene kills a child every two minutes. And yet when you have that water, that's so avoidable and so easily avoidable, and yet, despite this, 1 in 10 people currently don't have water close to home.
- [03:12]
A
It's always fascinating when you have conversations like this because water, like air, is so, you know, it's ubiquitous. We experience it every single day. And because it's so abundant and we have the privilege of living here, we have clean water coming out of our tat. In many ways, it's unseen. We don't dwell upon it, we don't think about it, but it's in our homes, it's in our cities, it's in our farms. I suppose I would expect that when people hear this conversation, they think, okay, but what's the climate got to do with it? Why do we need to think about that? The water is the climate. The water's from the climate. Vera, perhaps I could ask you, why should we be talking about water? Why does it matter to our conversations about the future?
- [03:47]
C
Thanks, Koko. And pleasure being here. Water actually sits at the heart of our future. It sits at the heart of life. So there can't be any conversation without talking about water, especially when we think about climate change, because we know the climate crisis is in fact a water crisis. We already know, and we can experience it, that droughts, floods, storms, they all increase, they intensify, they lengthen, the sea level is rising and we have glacial melt happening. And this all disturbs the water cycle and has severe impacts for people and their lives. Last week, I celebrated my 10 years in Kenya. And when I first came to Kenya in 2016, I worked with a water utility just outside of Nairobi. And they supply water to over 100,000 people. Obviously demands exceeds supply. And then shortly after, there was a severe drought that hit East Africa. It led to famine, it led to loss of life, and the utility was relying on service, surface water. They were not prepared at all. It had never happened before that they ran out of water. But rainy season after rainy season failed and their optimism came at a high price. By the time when the disaster response plans were developed and actually approved, there was no more drop of water. And so hospitals, schools, businesses, anyone was without water. So that was my starting point in climate resilience. Because as a young technical advisor these days, I really learned my lesson. Like you have to plan in climate resilience from the start, from the beginning, from the first letter you write in any project design. And yeah, that's what I still do now at water 8.
- [05:29]
A
Do you think some of the issues is that who is responsible for ensuring that the water system, you know, not just that you can access it, how is it shared, how is it protected, how is it sustained? All those maintenance, I suppose you would call it, is it that there's an issue about who is responsible for that, A kind of sector confusion, if you will.
- [05:46]
B
Yeah, I think that that's a really good point, Coco. And it gets to the heart of how WaterAid approaches these things because it's really easy to think, oh, water's for everyone, why are we not doing it? Especially when the fact is that actually we know a lot of what works and we know how to bring water and to ensure that water is there even when a climate crisis hits. But it does kind of fall between the cracks. And different government departments, different actors, don't necessarily think it's their responsibility or they can focus only on one particular water user group. So maybe they're thinking about how to manage water use for farmers or for industry or for households or for hospitals. But actually what you need is to take that really holistic approach that looks at all the different needs, all the different sources and supplies and all the different kind of points across a system where something might be going wrong and bring all of the different people together, which is obviously a much harder job because know, you've just got more people and more feelings involved, but is really what we've seen works in the long term. And once you've got those systems in place, that means you're not just dealing with the climate situation that we have right now, but actually you've got that kind of flexibility built in, in that system that means that as it changes and as the droughts get worse, or maybe suddenly you're having floods where you've never had floods before, they know how to collectively identify the solutions and implement the solutions that need to happen.
- [07:10]
A
What you just explained there about, oh, okay, having a methodology to enact if there's drought, but also having a system in place if there's floods. I feel like that that sounds really complicated. Is it really complicated?
- [07:24]
C
In fact, yes, it is quite complicated. It's a very complex problem. In fact, it's a whole system that depends on it. Because if you try to find the answer to why does a community not have water? You have to ask so many questions. There's no answer. It's because there's no infrastructure. Okay, you can fix this, but are there people maintain, are they there? Do you have the investment to bring this infrastructure, do you have the healthy ecosystems upstream that ensure that water is actually coming into these pipes? Do you have policies in place? Do you have the government being accountable? So it needs all this together. And what was Helen describing earlier with the systems is the key approach we are following? It's like analyzing the system and to make the system very strong. And making it strong is looking that all these things are in place. This is like the gold standard in sustainability to ensure that a system is functioning so that the people who receive water don't have to think about, they just open the tap, water is flowing. So you don't want to think about where is it coming from, has it been cleaned? It should all just be in place. And to do this, we need to make the system very strong to ensure it is flowing.
- [08:32]
A
Do you think there's a sense that when you're dealing with countries and communities that are rapidly developing that they, they just might not be interested in clean water? Maybe they're thinking about something that sounds jazzy, something that is innovative with new technologies, for example. I mean, it's not the same at all. But, you know, here in London, as I sit now recording with you, the conversations are always about artificial intelligence. And increasingly environmental campaigners are saying, we do not have the water and the, the power to run these systems. I wonder if that is seen all around the world.
- [09:04]
B
I think that is true to a large extent. You know, and definitely when you think about climate change or anything, I think people always flock to the new shiny thing, right? And the new technology. And that is probably universally true. And that's why a lot of water aids work is not just working on implementing, but also talking to governments, talking to all sorts of different people with power and change makers to try and help them understand why they should care about water. But I also think water is actually, you know, it can be exciting and we can make it glamorous. You know, it underpins, as you were saying, Coco, it underpins a lot of the technologies, a lot of the things that governments are interested in. And if they want to have this particular trade sector set up, well, it will need water. If they want to be a science and technology hub, they will need water and they will need a healthy workforce as well, who need water. So the argument is always there. And that's why we work a lot with different leaders to identify what it is that they need to change so that their political objectives can be served in a way that also ensures everyone has the drinking water, the decent toilets that they need.
- [10:12]
A
Let's have a think about what's working already. So innovations in how water and sanitation are delivered are currently already changing lives, many lives. But in communities on the front line of climate change, it's local knowledge and leadership that drive the change. So really what we want to find out is how local resilience being built and why the policy matters so much in this mission of securing a future with clean water for all. So, Vera, I'll start with you just from a community perspective. So far we've talked a lot about what we think things should look like, but it's hard to imagine what that actually is in practice. So perhaps you could tell me what does climate resilient access to clean water, safe toilets and good hygiene actually look like?
- [10:54]
C
Let me take you to Ghana. In Ghana, we implement what we also implement in other countries. We have over 20 countries we work in and the main goal of this is to bring access to water and to bring access to good toilets and good hygiene. But in times of climate change, that means you bring the access, but you need to consider there's still a hazard, there's a climate risk happening. So you need to ensure whatever you bring really continues the service is there, no matter what happens. So what we do in Ghana, in addition to the project that's supplying access to water, we have come up with a new financing mechanism. We call it the Climate Resilient Wash financing mechanism. And it's a community led financing model. So it puts the community in the driver's seat and the community is designing the intervention. It's thinking through. Wait, what is our biggest problem that we want to solve right now? We call this locally led adaptation to put the community into the driving seat. And when I talk to the program manager on site, Richard, engineer Richard, when he tells me about so how is this financing model going? He tells me that it brings a lot of ownership. Communities don't have the feeling there is an organization coming that tells them what their problem is, that tells them what their solution is, and then builds or implements something. But it's the community who says, well, we need this right now, this is our biggest problem. But he also tells me it's not easy. In the beginning, the communities had so many ideas of what they needed to do and so many challenges to solve and it needed lots of support, but not the support that we usually bring to like build infrastructure, but support in like trying to identify what's the best solution for the climate change impact that will happen in future. On the ground in this community, what is the best thing you can do to ensure that there's long term resilience? You have water not just tomorrow, next year, but also in 10, 20 years.
- [12:58]
A
And did you find that actually the community has all of that knowledge? Because that's often the thing that people trot out. This idea being like, well, it's very complicated and we don't really have the solutions. However, oftentimes certainly while I've been speaking to you find people at WaterAid, it appears that, well actually a lot of these communities already know what to do and know where the pinch points are. But what is lacking is sometimes political will or finance or things like that. Does that sound right to you?
- [13:23]
C
It definitely does. So we need to work on all levels at the same time. And as the community might know what's happened seasonality wise we have, especially in sub Saharan Africa, we often have dry seasons, wet seasons and it's like a changing cycle. But they also know that there has been droughts and floods in the moment. I often have the feeling that the optimism is very high and reality sense that it's just getting worse is so, so hard to believe that what people and communities have known since hundreds, thousands of years is going to change. It's not going to be the same anymore. This realization is very difficult. In Ghana, Richard told me that one of the biggest challenge was not the knowledge, it was the articulation and it was one of the things where text heavy proposals just didn't flow very well with the community because reading through it understanding was super difficult. So what they did is just to try new methods, use videos, voice notes, pictures, just to have a very easy and accessible approach to find in a co creative way what really needs to be done.
- [14:34]
A
I have to say that's quite touching to hear about the optimism. There is always something that can be done and where there's a will, there's a way. Right? So Helen, let me ask you, so at a policy level, what is climate policy missing when it comes to water? What does it really need to get right?
- [14:50]
B
We talked somewhat about it earlier in that paradoxically, because water is relevant to everyone, it falls between the gaps in policymaking. So at a very basic level the first step is policymakers, politicians, finance contributors need to recognize that that's what's happening so far and Put it at the center. So bring all the different actors together to think about the policy making and stop this working in different silos. You know, don't just address one management approach for farmers, one for AI, one for industry. Vera talked then as well around not ignoring the voices of those who are most impacted. You know that they have the solutions, they know a lot of what is needed. And I think it comes back to your previous question, Coco, on the hopelessness. I think it's really lazy and it's really frustrating to say we don't know what to do because actually people do know what to do. They're just not being listened to. And so ensuring that kind of community leadership and those voices are shaping what actually needs to happen. And then the other one is finance. We have a huge finance gap at the moment. And so we do know what needs to happen, we know what works. But if there's no money, then it just can't happen. And so really increasing the range of different financial mechanisms that are pushing money towards water and making sure that that comes in a way that doesn't exacerbate debt for the people who are already the most disadvantaged, the political will, the finance are the big unlockers. And then also looking at this at multiple kind of geographical scales at once, you need to work really locally to understand what are the behaviors that are at play here, what are the cultural practices that mean the water, that water will be used or won't be used for whatever reason. But also alongside that, look at the basin level, look at the ecosystems that are in place. And then also at the international level and the regional level as well, to understand all of the different trends. And that, that is really complicated, but it is also very doable.
- [16:50]
A
What we've been talking about is human beings, human lives impacted by the climate crises. And quite often we're thinking about climate resilience or policy level, organizational level, you know, workforce level, whatever. We're kind of thinking about a. I suppose I'll just say like non human entity, right? Like the AI or whatever it might be. And so quite often this fair criticism has said that sometimes when we're thinking about climate future proofing for countries, we don't actually have climate justice at the center of it. A lot of these terms can feel quite elusive. And I just wonder, do you have an example of that? Of how actually a climate seemingly climate focused initiative lacked climate justice?
- [17:31]
B
When you ask about examples of work that isn't, you know, that is almost a climate injustice or that doesn't bring climate justice, there are lots of occasions when people have really well meaningly tried to do things to bring water, but that actually it's made it worse. So there are times when people have built dams that provide water for a city upstream, but forget about all of the tiny small communities lower downstream who are being impacted or when perhaps they bring in new irrigation methods for farmers which are really great and ensure that there is water for those farmers. But again, forget about the hospital or the school that are relying on that watering as well. And why this is a justice issue is that what you will see is often it is the people who at least listen to maybe they don't have the cultural capital or the access to be able to go in and say, hey, we need water here. My needs are important too. They're the ones that get not listened to. And so at Water Aid we actually work really closely with the people in rural communities to make sure that they're not left behind either.
- [18:33]
A
Just a quick bit of stats for our listeners. So the UN has estimated that for every dollar invested in water and sanitation there is a return. I don't run a business, but I feel like that is really giving you some serious returns. And that's in the form of reduced healthcare costs for individuals and societies around the world. Innovations in clean water and hygiene will define the next wave of global health equality. And every donation to Water Aid will help accelerate that change. Now, looking ahead, the question becomes how we build them, what works, how will it last and why? We need to do it right now to achieve a water secure future for everyone. So Vera, I'll start with you. Water systems, how can we rethink them? What does it mean to rethink them? Is it really big and scary? Is it a case of minor tweaks? Is it a project that you know, requires year on year change in adaptability and there's not going to be a solution that we can say yes, that will last for 20 years.
- [19:28]
C
Thanks Koko. And yeah, the numbers are always shocking when you, when you think about it. If it's such a valuable investment and should actually be a no brainer for governments, like it's not a question, should I invest in, in health and education, in water? If you invest in water, it has really core benefits for health and education. Yet we have a challenge. So when we look at the solution side, right, first of all we need to do our job well. There's no easy. We have talked about it earlier. There's no easier way to say drill a well, put a pipe and it's going to work. It needs absolutely more than this. It needs the whole system to function. And when we look at climate change, it needs to function even better. We have three adaptation goals that we follow that should really help us solve this problem. And these are first, to have resilient infrastructure, really robust infrastructure that will still be there when a flood happens, when a drought or extreme heat impacts, for example, pipes or storage units. The second thing we need to do is to have dynamic service management. So what this means is to be able to react. The example I gave earlier, was the utility able to react, the dumb becoming more and more empty? No, they didn't. They didn't react at all. Because they were like, well, it will just rain, it will just rain. Our problem will be solved. And being able to adapt means you need to be flexible, thinking ahead. You need to have systems, actionable plants in place. And this can be for utility. This can also be for a health center. A health center, if they know thanks to early warning systems, for example, that is disaster, a drought is going to happen soon. They need to know where am I getting water from in case my borehole runs dry? Where am I closing the tubs? Is it the birth ward? Am I really closing tubs there? Or am I trying first to close other tubs to ensure that the most important places, for example, where surgery happens, you still have running water. And then the third goal is healthy ecosystems. You cannot supply water when there's no water where it's coming from. So utilities know this since evers communities also know this. They know that the source of water being at a spring that's coming out of the hills or an intake like a little river or a stream. They know that they need to protect this catchment area very well. This catchment area needs to be intact to ensure that water can actually come. And these healthy ecosystems obviously have multiple benefits, but a key one is to continue supply water because most of our water is coming these ways. Same for groundwater. Groundwater is water that's flowing underground and then pumped up through a well or extracted somewhere, but it's recharged somewhere and that's usually at the same place at the ecosystems that recharge this groundwater. So we need all three together to add on our already sustainable approach to make sure it can persist when climate hazard hits.
- [22:33]
A
When you said the word ecosystem, it was like a penny dropped in my brain because quite often I'm probably guilty and maybe the listeners are, maybe others are of thinking that, you know, there's preserving nature and then there's extracting from nature and Those are the two pathways. But actually what you described there is that that's not how it works. That in preserving the ecosystem, in supporting the ecosystem, part of that is actually, yes, we can get more water from it. Is that the case then? So when we're thinking about future water systems, it's about working with nature rather than extracting from it, rather than putting pressure on it.
- [23:05]
C
I would actually say yes, because it's really a dream team. If you do work with nature, you protect the long term water supply, you obviously protect many things, you protect biodiversity, you protect cool air, you ensure that rain patterns keep continuing as they are. And this dream team of protecting for long and supplying right now, now is really key to have water throughout. There's a way that you can build with nature. We call it nature based solutions or nature positive solutions. That means you don't just go, extract, do whatever profit you will gain from it, but you build in a way that nature also benefits or that nature is the least impacted as possible to ensure that it continues thriving. Because it has a function. It has a function that goes beyond just serving humans. It has a function in itself. And this function we need to preserve for the nature, but as we know, also for our own benefit. So our first goal is really to mitigate climate change, to reduce global warming, reduce carbon emissions, reduce biodiversity loss. But at the same time, we really need to adapt to what's already happening. And this needs to happen in the best way possible, in harmony with nature.
- [24:26]
A
Well, it certainly sounds like, you know, require ambition, focus. Helen, let me ask you, if clean water was treated as non negotiable. So we've discussed how actually this is somewhere between accidentally overlooked or willfully ignored. Imagine it wasn't like that. And everybody understood, everyone involved in this, in this community building, industry building, running countries and communities. If everybody agreed that the foundation is water and it's non negotiable, paint me a picture of the future. What could that look like? What is this optimistic goal we could find in touching distance?
- [25:01]
B
Yeah, and it really is in touching distance. Like we could achieve this. I think a world where clean water was prioritised. It's a world where everyone, everywhere is thriving. You know, communities would be happier, they would be healthier. We wouldn't be losing people to really preventable diseases and wouldn't be seeing women die in childbirth. Also, you mentioned earlier, Coco, economic growth and that would be, you know, countries and communities would have far more secure and far more thriving jobs. Globally, two thirds of jobs rely on a clean water supply and when you tune into low income countries, that's 80%. So 80% of jobs rely on having a clean water supply. So it's not just the health and the education, but also the jobs would be far more flourishing as well. Deadly diseases such as cholera would be virtually non existent. And without the burden of having to spend hours collecting water from unsafe sources, children would be able to stay in school and complete their education more fully.
- [26:03]
A
So you said it was in touching distance, so I expect there must be a source of frustration there to know that we could turn this around. Do you still feel optimistic about this? Do you still feel optimistic about the timeline in which we can change things?
- [26:16]
B
I think you have to be. And I think that isn't naive optimism and that isn't insensitive optimism. You know, when you work on the climate crisis, I always say you have to hold hand in hand both hope and anger. Anger that this is so wrong and the people who have contributed the least to climate change are suffering the most. But also optimism. You know, since 2000, more than 2.4 billion people have gained access to clean water close to home. And we know there is enough water for everyone on earth. So it is just a question of ensuring everyone has access to it. And so at Water Aid, I mean, we see things every day that give me hope. This year we partnered with 18 young leaders from around the world who championed the fight against the global water and climate crisis and are advocating to their politicians and signing open letters which they handed into the COP presidency in Brazil. So there's so many inspiring change makers who are determined to make a difference. And ultimately, I guess it is, it is the staff and the communities that we work with that really give me hope. Because we, through that work, we see people gain access to water that never had it or that wouldn't have necessarily been able to keep having it in response to a climate change impact. And these people give me hope. You know, they're demonstrating what persistence, what determination can achieve.
- [27:36]
A
Something that I often return to when I'm thinking about hope is change is inevitable, as in it simply cannot keep going on like this. It just cannot. It doesn't work. Is that something that you've seen in your, in your career, in your time, that, you know, change, although frustratingly slow, is the direction we have to go in?
- [27:52]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Things are always changing, you know, and I think people often make the mistake of thinking we're talking about water, so we're talking about static, you know, taps, and we're talking about infrastructure, but ultimately we're talking about people and people's behaviors and people's relationships and those are always changing. So that is. That is a huge opportunity for us to build on that and bring water and support water access for everyone.
- [28:18]
A
Well, that does seem like a perfect place to end our conversation today. Thank you so much to Helen and Vera for giving us some of your time. Now, we all know that water is important, but this conversation has shown just how much is at stake. Investing in clean water benefits everyone. It's a reminder that water is not just a resource, but a responsibility. It requires climate consciousness, community centered systems, policy and action. Right now, 1 in 10 people still live without clean water close to home. And every pound one invested in water and sanitation returns up to £4 in increased productivity in stronger health and resilience. With your support, clean water can change lives. If you'd like to help WaterAid reach even more people with clean water, sanitation and hygiene, you can donate today. Even a small contribution goes a long way in building a fairer, healthier, more sustainable future for us all. And just £5amonth over a year can buy five standpipe taps in Madagascar, meaning communities can have clean water for decades to come. Thank you so much for listening. And a huge thank you to Helen and Vera for sharing their expertise to their stories and decades of experience working alongside communities to make clean water a reality for everyone.