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Intelligence Squared
How Sex Scenes in Film Can Reshape Real Intimacy, With Intimacy Coordinator Ita O’Brien
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- [00:01]
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- [01:20]
Mia Sorrenti
welcome to intelligence Squared, where great minds meet. I'm senior producer Mia Sorrenti. How has the way we depict sex on screen changed the way we think about intimacy, off it? And in an age of AI companions and increasingly digital relationships, what does genuine human connection look like? On today's episode, Eta O', Brien, the UK's leading intimacy coordinator, joins Olivia Petter, journalist, author and broadcaster, to discuss o' Brien's new book, Intimacy, and how her work has transformed the portrayal of sex on screen while opening up wider conversations about consent, trust and physical connection. Let's join our host, Olivia Petter, now
- [01:57]
Olivia Petter
with more hello everyone. My name is Olivia Petter. I am a journalist and author and I am thrilled to be here with Intelligence Squared to speak to the wonderful ETA o', Brien, the pioneering intimacy coordinator behind some of the most groundbreaking pieces of pop culture we've seen. I'm talking about I May Destroy you Sex education and Normal people shows that completely revolutionized the way that we talk about and think about sex and intimacy on screen. And that was down to Eaters. Completely revolutionary. Like I said, work. This wasn't something that people were doing very long ago. It's still a very recent creation. Very recent Very necessary creation. And now she has written a book, a field guide to finding connection and feeling your deep desires. So I am thrilled to be talking to ETA about it today. So let's begin, I guess, eta. Can you start us off by explaining why you decided to write this book and I guess in a short summary, what you hope it offers people.
- [03:04]
Eta O'Brien
Lovely. So, first of all, Olivia, I want to say it's an absolute pleasure to be here, and it's a delight to be invited by Intelligence Squared to talk with you and to share both the intimacy coordination work and the inspiration behind the book Intimacy. So, yes, I was offered to write this book. And what I loved was the Penguin sort of what they asked of me was to share what was behind the intimacy guidelines and fundamentally my movement practice. And I was absolutely delighted to open this out and bring this to the world, because that's what I do in the work. You know, I come from being a dancer, an actor, movement teacher, movement director. And actually, what underpins all of the development and the creation of a really good intimate scene is supporting an actor to be in their body, to be articulate, to be listening to their body, to have tools, to be able to transform and then to bring that into relationship. Relationship. And that's what I'm able to share through this book. But also in the sharing of the intimacy guidelines on set. That realization that the fundamental tenants, open communication, transparency, agreement and consent, clear choreography and closure actually are wonderful, is a wonderful structure for us to bring into our everyday lived lives. And just that very first one, open communication around our intimate content. It flips the. The coin completely and opens out how we consider our intimate lives as something that's an open and important and considered part of our lives. And that's such a shift where so many come. So many. So many of us come from either religions or cultures or just an upbringing where there's secrecy and shame and that sort of aspect of expectation that you should know how to do it. And. And you know that that question of how isn't really opened out and. And. And thought about. And so that's where everybody sort of does it sort of in. In the background, in. In the shadows. Whereas actually, if we open out that com. That communication, open out, what do I want? What's right for me? What do I desire? Yeah. How does that work for me? What's working for me still? What's perhaps not working for me anymore? And having those conversations and bringing that into our intimate expression, then we can really start being exciting and really having wonderful intimate times. With each other, not just when we first get together, but right the way through our lives.
- [05:31]
Olivia Petter
I mean, it's so important this work, not just on screen, but like you say, off screen too. And I think we're really seeing that with the development of this sector of the industry and the impact it's having on people and the conversations that are being started that like you say, were previously shrouded in shame and stigma. I guess it sounds like quite an obvious question, but to those outside of the film and TV world, can you explain why getting intimacy on screen is so important? And not just to the actors themselves filming those scenes, but also to the crew and the people who are watching back home.
- [06:05]
Eta O'Brien
So first of all, people have said to me, do we still need intimate scenes, sexual scenes on screen? And my response is, it's a fundamental of who we are as human beings. Our fundamental are, can I survive and can I procreate? And in that place of procreation, then it's not just. It is a beautiful physical act. And if you choose to just have a hookup that's purely physical, great with two consenting adults. But actually it's also the core of who we love and who's our partner through our lives, if we're lucky enough to have somebody in a long term relationship, how we love, how we express that loving to each other, how we can keep nurturing that loving throughout our lives. And that's such a fundamental part of are who we are as human beings. And I truly believe that our art should reflect humanity back to itself. And so therefore, you know, that depiction of our loving should be a really important part of the storytelling. And but the madness was before now is that, you know, obviously with two people in a loving storytelling, you might have the first moment that they lay eyes on each other and then that frisson of that dance of fancying getting closer and then you come to the first touch and then through to a culmination of intimacy, sexual content. So it is a physical expression. You know, it has to. Once you go from, from gays conversation, you know, the dance of getting closer, then it is a physical expression. And so we need to support our actors in order to be able to create that physical choreography. And in the past, you know, if there was a fight, then you had a fight director or a stunt coordinator. So fight director for theater and stunt coordinator for TV and film. And again there's somebody who's going to listen to the director's vision in place, really good rehearsal process so that someone can learn to throw a Punch safely or, you know, learn to do a tumble safely. And then that stunt coordinator will choreograph serving the director's vision, teaching the really good choreography that's telling us what is happening in this, in these beats of this scene with these characters who are angry with each other and fighting with each other in some way. And then once that's rehearsed, you put it up in front of the camera, you create a brilliant fight. So it's completely supported by this physical artist, this physical practitioner in the role of the stunt coordinator or the fight director. And then same with the brilliant dance again, you've got. I always use Baz Luhrmann's Moulin Rouge just because I love it so much. But what a fantastic moment it is in Moulin Rouge. It tells us so much about these characters. And again, this elevated moment of expression, that's physical expression. So Baz Luhrmann would have spoken to his choreographer, she'd have rehearsed with her dancers, she'd have with Ewan McGregor and the other main cast. They'd know what they were doing. And then you put it up in front of the camera and all that emotion explodes, doesn't it, in the hugeness of what that tango is offering. But in the past, with intimate content, there was no person or no professional structure or no practitioner to support exactly the same way the physical journey through to creating a really good scene. And that's what we bring as intimacy coordinators. We're exactly the same as the stunt coordinator. We'll speak to the director, listen to their vision, and then once we understand what the creative vision is, then I make sure the directors speak to the actors so that they know what it is. Then I'll speak to the actors and then the idea of agreement and consent. So we're bringing in, tell us, know what your requirements are. So yes, we want this lovely, sexy scene in the shower. But the actress might say, I've just had a baby. So I'm happy for the influence of my character to seem to be naked, but I want to be wearing a halter neck swimming costume. I'm happy for my back down to the small of my back to be seen. If I have my hair down, the halter neck can't be seen and it can jump to the top of my thighs, you know, and, and so it has the inference of complete nakedness. But that, that, but I feel completely listened to and heard. I feel completely personally comfortable. So artistically I can give the best of myself. So that's now what we bring in that bit of agreement and consent. So we share that back with the. With the director, with the cinematographer, with the costume department so that all those departments can get ready, prepare the modesty garments, prepare the shot list. Understand, you know, how we're going to tell this beautiful story, and then we'll rehearse it the same as a stunt or a dance before the day on set. So again, in front of the camera, the actors know what they're going to do, that we've agreed and consented, where they're going to be touched. They know what their degree of nudity is that they've agreed to. And it means, again, everybody can create the best intimate scene and. Yeah, and everybody can have a. Can be joyous and be the best of themselves and at the end of that scene can honor themselves for having done a really good day of work.
- [10:59]
Olivia Petter
And it's so insane to me when you talk about what you do that this wasn't standard procedure on sets before because it just seems so bonkers that actors and crew members were sort of just left to their own devices in terms of figuring out these deeply complicated psychologically and emotionally scenes to film and to choreograph. So what was it like before? Were people being put in harm's way? I mean, I suppose we know that the most sort of extreme examples of what can happen on these film TV sets in that sense. But I suppose just from your side of things, why is it so important? What kind of safeguarding are we doing here? And the harms, what kind of harms are we preventing? That used to just be happening all the time.
- [11:48]
Eta O'Brien
This is it. And it's so sad, but it's also so joyous that it shifted. And it really is that, you know, whenever I do a workshop, I always start with, when have you engaged with intimacy? When it's been done well, when it's not being done well. And what do you want to get out of this workshop? And I promise you, Pre Weinstein, everybody has a story. You know, when someone says, oh, the intimate scenes are awkward, to feeling harassed, to feeling abused, that language, all of that is actually something not right. Is happening something outside someone's boundaries? It's been asked of them and. And before there was a professional process. There was just the expectation and as I said, around sex and intimacy, this sense of not talking about it openly. So it became the elephant in the room. It was, well, you've read the script, as in, you know, what's coming up, so you should be ready for it, you know, and, you know, the costume department invariably have, you know, absolutely fabulous in preparing all the modesty garments. But invariably, when there wasn't that conversation, the actor invariably, on the day on set would be in the costume department going, what's happening today? You know, what have you got for me? And in that place of personal trepidation because they don't know what's going to be asked of them. It's just the sex scenes there. And, you know, and again, the director so many times, as I've said before, the directors, you know, are equally going, well, you know, they haven't got someone, you know, artistic or they haven't got a practitioner, or they didn't have a practitioner who was a physical, you know, artist who understood about rhythm, physical choreography and then the anatomy of arousal in order to bring detail to it. And so they were left also without that support that they would do in any other part of the physical storytelling. And then the aspect that, yes, the injury that comes from it, from being asked to, oh, just take your clothes off, just go into that room and just make out, you know, that injury can be physical, but actually it's fundamentally emotional and psychological. So that was also just the awareness of the mitigating that injury was. While it was gradually being spoken about, it was truly understood once the aspect of the, you know, the Weinstein allegations and the understanding that that emotional and psychological injury is as much something to be mitigated as a physical injury and the subsequent possibility of, in the acknowledgment of how, you know, how much it can break someone and how much of an injury it is that then it's. It's a. It's an offense that you can take someone to court around. But I've, you know, spoken to cinematographers who've told me stories that they were, you know, the director was so, so nervous about it that they just had the two actors in a room. They said, oh, they're going to get on with it. And the DOP is just thrown into the room and said, they're going to get on with it. You just film it. And he said he would. And the directors shut the door on them. And so these two people are just making out the. Doing the best that they can while the cinematographer is trying to capture the best that he can, but he doesn't know what they're going to do. So. And he said he felt so awful and like a fly on the wall. And then, you know, sound, you know, practitioner who's holding there with a boom again, when there wasn't, you know, really good understanding of a good closed set. Then again, everybody's confronted with something that they don't know what's going to happen. The aspect of an actor being supported, that nudity is from action to cut. And all other times you're covered. So again, you know, it's not suitable for anybody in their workplace to just be encountering someone's nakedness. So again, before those clear protocols that actually, that nudity is only for the camera, for the storytelling, and of course you should be covered up. You shouldn't be just running around naked, because that's incredibly confronting to anybody. If it wouldn't happen in office, it shouldn't happen on set.
- [15:40]
Olivia Petter
Yeah, exactly. That's what people seem to forget is that these are workplaces. And I think even if nothing is going wrong objectively, like to just be put in a room with an actor and be told, film a sex scene, film an intimate scene with them. And I've spoken to actors who I've interviewed about this and they've said, what's so jarring about that is then you sort of naturally just do what you would do if you're going to have sex with someone, which is a very vulnerable, exposing thing to be doing in your workplace. And it's not information that you should be sharing with someone who is essentially a colleague. And then in front of a team of people, like, it's so horrible to be told that this is what you just have to do at work. And so I think it's just a really strange thing to me that this was just a widely accepted truth of the job before people like you came and started doing this really incredible work. So. So, I mean, it's just. It's so wonderful. And I suppose one of the other things that I'm interested in is how you think the conversations around intimacy coordination have changed in the last few years since the sector has become more established. I think there are maybe some misconceptions and the ways that certain actors have spoken about it publicly is not the most positive. And I just wonder what you make of some of that and how that's changed. You know, the approach to. To everything you're doing and the feeling around it.
- [17:07]
Eta O'Brien
Yes, that's. That's right. That's right. It's incredible. You know, when I was first speaking about the work in 2017, I was saying, my hope is that in five years that this might become established and, oh, my goodness, what a shift there has been. So it's both incredibly positive, but as you said, sort of the lack of understanding. And, you know, there are so many good trainings out there. I train people. So my training is that, you know, you learn the techniques, you know, for six to nine months, but then you're under mentorship. And for work on TV and film, my practitioners have to do a minimum of 50 days of work over a minimum of five productions with a maximum of 25 days, only one production. And that's the amount. Because that's the amount that if that it. That gives time to embody this practice. Just like any good skill, that is an embodied practice where you're understanding about bodies, choreography, relationship, listening into the body and then sharing that. It takes time to. To, you know, to integrate that embodied practice and to become competent enough so that then you're ready to be fully accredited. And, you know, what happened was that so many trainings got set up when we were in Covid, because it was particularly those productions that came out during lockdown, which was in a sex education season two. Normal people, I may destroy you. It's a sin that suddenly the audience and the industry could really see the benefit and the impact of really beautiful and artistically considered intimate content. And then the impact that they had both on elevating the quality of the production and on an audience really feeling, you know, that the character's truth of the journey, that journey, to really understand how you are present on set, how you serve the producers first as their ally, how you put in place best practice across the whole of a production that as you use for your were aware of, you know, that's not just about the cast. It's about all the crew. It's about a whole production's day of work. And when someone isn't supported under mentorship to gradually develop a really robust professional practice, then that's where bad practices happen. And then also it's that thing of really understanding that, you know, you are absolutely serving the actor director's process. You're not trying to interrupt it or get in the way. You're basically offering the eye that as the intimacy coordinator, you're facilitating that open communication so that everything can be understood and known before the day on set. So that actually the actor is back to being free and just do what they do and what they're employed for, which is to act about these characters. And then that goes back to answering your question. And it's so wonderful, Olivia, that you have these conversations with other actors, because it is exactly that. And my heart goes out to anybody that's just said, just make out. And as you're saying, invariably each actor is trying to take care of each other. They're trying to do their best. But if they haven't had time to artistically and creatively with their director, talk about, well, why is that scene there? How does it push the storytelling forward? What does it tell us about each of these characters? And then that's where, you know, the aspect of supporting the actor to really be in this embodied character, that's not them. And again, that's what keeps the actor safe. You're making sure that the physicality. They're stepping into, their physicality of the character and then going, and what are the rhythms of this character? And that's exactly also how they protect themselves from not feeling exposed about who you are in your personal lives and how you express yourself with your most precious, loving relationships. It is really important that's kept sacred. And again, through this process, you know, your clear choreography, considering character then and then choreographing and everything's known before the day on set. Then again, what we want is to give the actor freedom. And as an actor said to me, oh, it's just like any other scene. And it is just like any other scene, but includes touch and possibly nakedness and simulated sexual content. But that's known and choreographed, which is why that's so important. And the process and the preparation is so important so that the day on set, they can be free. So, for example, there's, you know, somebody who said, oh, stand back on set and give me space. Well, the thing is, she's absolutely right. You should. The intimacy coordinator should be giving the actors space on set because all the work should have been known. So those kind of misconceptions about actually what good practice is and. And what the. What the. How the role can support the actor, not get in the way. Who can support the director and honor the director's vision and help elevate it, not get in the way. And there was somebody else mentioned or said something about, I don't need an intimacy coordinator because my co star isn't a pervy person.
- [22:11]
Olivia Petter
Well, that was Jennifer Lawrence who said that.
- [22:15]
Eta O'Brien
Okay. And while that sentiment is absolutely good, of course you want your fellow actor to behave, you know, respectfully. But, you know, if you were doing a fight, you know, would you say, I don't need a fight director, because my fellow actor isn't an angry person. It's like, well, great, that's a lovely given for how we work respectfully on set. But actually, that doesn't mean that suddenly you don't need all of those skills that the stunt coordinator is going to bring, you know, understanding what the techniques are that are wanted, teaching those techniques to the actor so that they're, you know, within their nervous system and really well known. And then choreographing so that the beats of the scene are really serving the character and the director's vision. And so everything's choreographed so that the day on set runs well. Again, it's lifting the lid and helping people to understand that's what we can do. You know, that is what we do is we really make sure the choreography and the physicality is exactly serving character and serving, serving director's vision. And so that again, you don't have to worry where you're going to be touched or you don't have to worry what degree of nudity might suddenly be asked of you. That that's all known. And then it allows freedom from everybody, but also better creativity for everybody.
- [23:32]
Olivia Petter
Which is ultimately what this is about, right? It's about expressing creativity. And it's about, you know, doing that in the safest way possible.
- [23:42]
Eta O'Brien
Allowing this is it sort of, you know, again, with a stunt coordinator, you know, they're there to support everybody and create a really brilliant stunt or fight. They're not, you wouldn't say they're there to keep people safe, as in that's their main focus. No, their main focus is they're there, you know, to create a brilliant piece of art that elevates this production. And inherent in the process is safety. Well, it's the same with us, you know, a really well trained intimacy coordinator who is an embodied physical artist who has all of those skills, you know, in their tool bag, you know, will come to set to again be exactly the same. And we bring technique. So some of the techniques that we might bring is like making sure that if they're simulated sexual content, you don't want pubic bone to pubic bone. So we bring in genitalia cushions that are sort of akin to the stunt coordinator crash mats. We're bringing in techniques of understanding about anchoring and body parts, you know, sort of connected that are good. So like, you know, and the same as a good fight, if you, if you're throwing a punch and the camera's on one side, you'll see that never the, the fist and the, and the face meet. But when you have it in the right camera angle, then it looks like there's a really good punch. And of course, it's all sold by the person that's receiving the punch or the Same with the intimate content. You know, we're making sure there's good physicality, good, good physical connection. And then, and then it's selling this, the, the physical story on where the camera is. But if you brought the camera around the other side, it wouldn't work.
- [25:26]
Olivia Petter
I want to ask you about AI because I think there's a lot of people who are raising questions and concerns around how AI is changing the way that we talk about intimacy, particularly in the context of people who are getting these AI girlfriends and boyfriends and are kind of seeking to remedy their loneliness by communicating with these so called sex bots. I suppose. I think there are quite obvious ramifications to that, but there might also be some benefits too. How do you navigate that? How do you think about that? Because I feel that this kind of thing is only going to become more prolific as this technology develops and these AI services become more intelligent, to use that word in quotation marks.
- [26:13]
Eta O'Brien
So it's such a concerning development, isn't it, in how we relate to the tools that are out there for us to use, isn't it? So here we are, I'm sat in Kent, you're sat in London, and we're able to communicate on this, you know, incredible, you know, technical technology and that's fabulous and you know, our phones and our computers and everything, all of it is there to serve us. What I'm writing about in the book is just bringing awareness about who we are as human beings. And for me, part of the, you know, work that I love is just reminding people, oh, you know, part of the really crucial work is coming back to the essence of who you are as a human being and how we operate on this earth. And so what I'm really offering through the book is a reminder to be in the body, to live a life in the body, you know, and, and it's not vilifying our screens, but it's, it's, it's just a reminder to go, just take step, a step away, just drop into the body, listen to the body, you know, and in order to really engage with your desires, your, you know, your sensuousness, your juiciness, you need to be in the body to listen to that. So doing things that, that allow you to connect with the body. So you know, for me, one of the things I offer is just walking barefoot in the grass every morning if you can, massaging your feet, going for a walk in nature just connects you up. It's, it's so important. And then, and then what are your desires and how do you take that into your relationships? The thing is, we're living on our screens and we're now becoming so much more disembodied. We're in our heads and we're playing games or connecting people on a game on the computer. So all was happening is our hands are twitching and everything. And now we've got our AI Google homes that we're talking to going, hey, Google, do this. So as then we're living at home and then these AIs are coming into our home and we're able to talk to them and interface with them. And that sense of the desire for human connection is so fundamental that then we're bringing that desire and that connection to this, you know, disembodied, you know, robot, you know, that is, that is in our homes. And then we're developing relationships with them in the sense, and it's serving a very needed function. But it's not a true lived person. You're not being engaged with actually the reality of the jeopardy, in a way, the uncertainty of how do I negotiate what I want? How do I negotiate what they want? How, how. What am I learning from this person? What are they living, learning from me? How am I loving this person? How are they loving me? And that's the aspect, isn't it, with an AI, they're not loving you.
- [29:13]
Olivia Petter
No, you're essentially, you're loving yourself because it's a projection of you.
- [29:17]
Eta O'Brien
That's right. And then, but, and again, developing a relationship with something like that, so long as you keep that overview, great. But it's so easy. And I've, you know, in my research, people have got sucked in so completely to, to then just believing that this is utterly real. And then that confusion in our emotional psyche. And then, as you say with the, with the cyber brothels and you know, and then that, then taking that a step further and wanting that physical release and then going to places that again, aren't asking you to interface with another human being. Not, not, not asking you to, you know, to, to in a way having that complicatedness of, of a, of another human being either that they're there in, as a professional to be of service if there's someone from the adult industry, you know, giving a service of sex and sexuality, which is absolutely fine if there's two consenting adults, but that choice to then go to a robot instead, again, as you're removing your, who you are as a human being and what that human connection. And again, okay, if you want to have a play with it, it's a toy, it's a, it's a tool. And if you're keeping that awareness that it's a tool. But I, my concern is that this, this confusion of, of someone loving something that actually isn't loving back or an, or a interchange with something that is just an inanimate object. Yeah, it's, it is concerning because I think people are just falling into it without really realizing what they're losing in these kind of relationships.
- [30:47]
Olivia Petter
Absolutely. We only have a few minutes left, but I suppose before we go, it would be great if you could offer listeners a few of the brilliant, tangible exercises that you go through in the book. When you're talking about the anatomy of arousal and you're talking about things that people can do to actually engage with their bodies and really feel grounded in themselves. And I suppose in a non sexual way you talk a lot about dancing and about just, you know, waving your arms in a certain way to kind of bring you back to yourself and how that can really benefit you in a sexual context. So if you have a few exercises that you can articulate without having to demonstrate to people that they could do at home, what would those be?
- [31:29]
Eta O'Brien
So the first one that I start the book with is the first thing you can do before you take any step on any journey is to start from where you are now, right now. And a really wonderful tool is 20 connected breaths. Breaths is such an easy tool and you can do it throughout the day when you want to finish one thing and resettle and set your mind before the next thing. Just literally sitting and connecting 20 breaths just gives you time to drop in, to release. And 20 connected breaths is enough to just change your fundamental nervous system and settle it and allow it to be calmer. Yeah. And just that quiet time to connect with the breath just gives you a release, a connection, a letting go and then like coming back to nothingness that were. And then you can go, and now what? Or a lovely place to start again to start questioning yourself and listening to yourself. So that's a fundamental, like I say, walking barefoot, massaging the feet is an absolutely wonderful one in order to really help you to be present again. The feet actually reflect the whole of the body and this is just an overall general massage and they're going to talk you through it. But that a really great tool again just to connect you, to remind you of, of that your physical connection with your own body and. Or you can do that foot massage to a partner, which is a lovely, beautiful, sensual thing. It was things like just a body Scan again is such a beautiful one. Just sitting, go. How am I right now? I'm feeling really stressed. Just sitting back, you know, body scan down the body. Where am I tense and following the impulses of how do I. Well, how does my body want to move me? Doing those stretches and then coming back. Yeah. To just going, oh, okay, great. Now I'm refreshed. Now I'm really present with myself. And then another one that's a fundamental sequence that I've Learned back in 1995, I think is the eight silken movements that are a very ancient sequence of movements. And they're so simple, but they're so profound. And I again offer those. But then as you were saying, just offer that understanding that just dance, just put piece of music on and just move to it. It's such a gorgeous thing reminding you of that joy, that impulse in the body. My partner and I, you know, one of the best places is dancing in the kitchen. You know, any time of day, whatever or night. Just to have that connection. As I say, throughout our. Throughout the ages, people connected through dance. And there's fact in, you know, before the 1960s, it was the main way that people could come to touch with each other. That's loosened up now, but it's still understanding that that dance is beautiful. And then to finish up what you're saying, what. It was so lovely that you mentioned the sections about the anatomy of arousal. So that's the other aspect in that whole section. I really, truly believe that really good education about, you know, our bodies and our arousal helps us to understand again who we are more and then have more successful encounters. And the thing to understand that someone with the penis, their journey to arousal is more linear. It has a. An arousal phase. It actually has a plateau phase, then arousal again to orgasm and then resolution with the female cycle. It's cyclical. So you can perhaps you can start a sexy encounter not feeling particularly sexy, and then you'll get aroused and then you're journeying on that cycle through. And I loved, I didn't know this as a mid-50s woman, understanding about what's happening internally as a woman's getting aroused and what happened with the womb. So the womb is actually lying flat over the bladder and it is also getting engorged, as is the clitoris, which again is this beautiful Y shaped organ that's mostly inside around our labia. All of that is getting engorged. There's as much, if not more engorging tissue in the woman's clitoris and vagina and womb as the penis. So to know that. But actually there's a different cycle and time. So a woman takes about 20 minutes to get fully aroused. But knowing that. And as you become aroused, the womb lifts so it's almost vertical. And then. And as it's doing that, it's opening out the vagina. So I'm waiting to that point of really being ready to invite someone into you. Is a wonderful thing to know both for men and women. And I really believe that all of this should be taught in our. In our schools. You know, we should be teaching, you know, about menstruation as a normal and natural thing. Something that's not a curse or something. It's disgusting. But again, it's a natural part of half the population. So understanding the cyclical nature of that. And I talk about the Red skull, which is really fabulous in and educating people about the gift of our cyclical nature as menstruating women. The anatomy of our arousal, the anatomy of our dysfunction, again. So up to 40% of people will experience some form of dysfunction. And again, there's such shame about it. But let's lift the lid and let it be something that can be spoken about and therefore people can get help that's needed. The anatomy, or what happens to us in our menopause, again, is so important. And how the body shifts and changes, rather than it being the secrecy thing. And again, it should be taught in our secondary schools in positive sex education, along with teaching our kids. Like two of the plates that I love is things that you don't see in mainstream porn and things that you wished you were taught in sex education. Drawn by the amazing Hazel Mead. So what I'm a real call to arms for our sex education to lift the lid and shift it to positive sex education so our young people can have positive sexual awakening. Awakening. And they've been taught all of this. So the understanding of respect for themselves, our young boys and young girls are really wonderful language for consent, you know, but, you know, and understanding consent, you know, comes from what people say, how they say it, what language is that they're saying it. But also what's happening in the body language and helping all of our young people to understand, you know, that. That freely given consent is what they're looking for. And anything other than that is not about love or. Or sexual nurse or consent. It's are. And what you're taking from somebody and. And helping all our young boys and girls to. To love and respect themselves, listen to their impulses, and then take that into their sexual awakening and also to help them to know that it's okay not to know.
- [38:04]
Olivia Petter
Thank you so much, Isa. Honestly, everything you're talking about, I think is is so integral to how we develop a healthy relationship with sex and sexuality, but also how we just develop a healthy relationship with ourselves and our bodies. And as you say, that is the key to experiencing pleasure, I think, both inside and outside of the bedroom, just in our day to day lives. So thank you so much for the work that you do and for chatting to me today.
- [38:26]
Eta O'Brien
Thank you Olivia. Amazing. It's been gorgeous to prepare this conversation with you and thank you so much for your insights and for your interest.
- [38:35]
Olivia Petter
Thank you.
- [38:36]
Mia Sorrenti
Thanks for listening to Intelligence Squared. This episode was produced by me, Mia Sorrenti and it was edited by Mark Twain Roberts for ad free episodes and full length recordings. You can become a member@intelligencesquared.com membership. If you'd like to join us at future live events, you can find our full program or buy tickets@intelligencesquared.com attend. You've been listening to Intelligence Squared. Thanks for joining us.
- [39:08]
Eta O'Brien
Sam.