Lena Dunham: Famesick, with Dolly Alderton (Part Two)

Summary

Intelligence Squared
Lena Dunham: Famesick, with Dolly Alderton (Part Two)
Date: April 28, 2026

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Episode Overview

In Part Two of this lively live event at the Hackney Empire in London, Lena Dunham, acclaimed creator of Girls and author of Famesick, joins writer and broadcaster Dolly Alderton for a candid, humorous, and heartfelt exploration of fame, creativity, British and American culture, and the personal costs of living publicly. The conversation is both sharp and playful, blending party games, intimate Q&A, and reflections on personal growth, illness, and what it means to be seen.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Britishness Quiz & Cultural Differences

[03:04-10:28]

• Dolly tests Lena’s assimilation into British culture with a lighthearted quiz.
• Lena's Deliveroo go-to: vegan sausage sandwich from Black Sheep Coffee—a “private food.”
• On Spice Girls: "Ginger" (Geri Halliwell) is her favorite, with anecdotes about meeting her and her sincerity.
• British slang: Lena loves “cunt,” marveling at how the word’s acceptability and usage varies between cultures.
• On comparing British and American men:

  "American men talk a big game and then shrivel in the moment. British men… there's a little switch that happens." — Lena Dunham [08:14]

• Dolly quips about pandemic journaling and quirky psychic readings.

2. Playful Sleepover Party Games

[10:28-19:59]

• The stage becomes a sleepover revival, with Lena, Dolly, Charles Fox, and Louise Felber playing "Fuck, Marry, Kill" and "Would You Rather."
• Charles Fox on games:

  "I'm a slender boy… Am I going to kill shopping? Yes, I am. We should all be consuming less and mending our clothes and rehoming dogs." — Charles Fox [13:14]

• Lena’s playful naughtiness about the infamous Jane Hotel:

  "If you don't think that I've gotten fingered at the Jane Hotel with an Olson walking back in front of the door, then you got another thing coming." — Lena Dunham [15:01]

• Louise Felber opts to “fuck” his libido, “marry” his connection to a higher power, and “kill” guilt, noting, “I’m turning myself into a Bond villain.” [17:01]
• hypotheticals about embarrassing social media posts and shameful essays for CNN.

3. Q&A: Writing, Autobiography, and Creativity

[20:28-28:49]

• On blending autobiography and fiction:

  "Even if something is really outside of my experience, I have to find something in it that feels personal to be able to go for it… In my memoir, I didn't blur the lines at all." — Lena Dunham [20:34]

• On her relationship with Nora Ephron:

  “She had a perfect response to everything… After she died... I understood that she felt a deep concern and desire to protect people.” — Lena Dunham [21:46-23:54]

• On Girls and social media:

  "I don't think there would be a show because no one would hang out with each other… The entire premise of going somewhere together, going to the same place so you can fight." — Lena Dunham [24:37]

• Improvisation in Girls: reveals lactate powder snorting on set for realism, which led to “snorting vitamin B powder… I think it supercharged my mind.” [26:31]

4. Chronic Illness & Personal Growth

[28:49-31:29]

• On Ehlers-Danlos syndrome and its effect on relationships:

  "One of the big lessons for me of chronic illness is we're all headed in the same direction… It's been very freeing to realize I'm having this profound experience of my body." — Lena Dunham [28:58]

• Honest talk about illness, resilience, and how it challenges social norms.

5. Pop Culture, Music, and Millennial Identity

[31:32-34:10]

• Lena and Dolly swap favorite Taylor Swift songs (“Hey Stephen” and “Would’ve, Could’ve, Should’ve” respectively).
• Soundtrack to Lena’s 20s vs. 30s:

  "20s is like, I'm alone… but I'm with you… Then you get into your 30s and you're like, you know who's great? Joni Mitchell." — Lena Dunham [33:09]

• The prospect of her 40s: bracing for more “Great American Songbook” influences.

6. Reflections On Age, Career, and Theater

[34:10-36:50]

• Turning 40: Lena jokes about wanting a “giant crib” as a birthday theme, echoing her lifelong self-examination.
• On writing plays:

  "I like… a multitude of experiences one time, and not one experience a multitude of times. So sue me." — Lena Dunham [35:55]

7. Audience Qs: British Meal Deals

[36:50-38:04]

• Lena’s favorite is Leon’s vegan chicken nuggets and waffle fries.
• Dolly’s is the classic Boots prawn cocktail sandwich, which Lena admits she’s “still wrestling with.”

8. Sincere Tributes & Closing Meditations

[38:10-end (43:54)]

• Dolly credits Lena’s work for reflecting real experiences:

  “Your work is the first time that my experiences were reflected in culture.”

• The event closes with Lena leading a comically dark meditation:

  "Every part of your body will one day be food for the worms unless you're lucky enough to be cremated by someone who's not tired of you… Let's let that fade away… Remember, you are capable of great things, and you're also capable of being a nasty little slut." — Lena Dunham [42:54]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "The thing that was amazing about [Nora Ephron] was that after she died…I met 60 women, young women, to whom she'd given that kind of attention. And I thought, fuck you." — Lena Dunham [22:44]
• "Doing it for the story will only take us so far. But that idea she had—which is, everything that happens to you belongs to you." [22:22]
• "If a guy messages you on Facebook, it means he doesn't like you at all. If he messages on Instagram, he likes you a little more and if he texts you, then you know what's really happening. And it feels so quaint." — Lena Dunham recounting early Girls dialogue [24:37]
• “Meditating’s hard. It doesn’t have to look one particular way… you are capable of great things and you’re also capable of being a nasty little slut.” — Lena Dunham’s closing meditation [43:30]

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Important Timestamps

• 03:04 – Britishness Quiz
• 10:28 – Sleepover party games begin, Charles Fox joins
• 16:02 – Louise Felber joins for party segment
• 19:59 – Festival “Would You Rather” for Dolly & Lena
• 20:28 – Audience Q&A: writing, autobiography, and Nora Ephron
• 24:37 – Reflections on Girls and social media
• 28:49 – Chronic illness and relationships
• 31:32 – Taylor Swift, music soundtracks
• 34:10 – Turning 40, end of Girls
• 35:55 – Thoughts on writing plays and theater
• 36:50 – Favorite British meal deal
• 38:10 – Dolly’s sincere tribute to Lena
• 42:54 – Lena’s offbeat, darkly comic guided meditation

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This episode brims with Lena Dunham’s trademark blend of raw candor, neurotic wit, and acute self-awareness. The interplay between Lena and Dolly Alderton is both entertaining and deeply moving, as they reflect on public life, private pain, illness, and what true connection looks like in an age of relentless visibility. The sleepover games, improvised banter, and audience questions make for a rich, communal listening experience.

Transcript

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[Mia Sorrenti]

Welcome to Intelligence Squared, where great minds meet. I'm producer Mia Sorrenti. In this episode, we return for part two of our live event with award winning actor, writer, director and producer Lena Dunham. The creator of hit series Girls and Too Much joined us at the Hackney Empire in London to discuss fame, creativity and the personal cost of success. She was in conversation with author, screenwriter and columnist Dolly Alderton. If you haven't heard part one, we recommend jumping back, an episode to catch up and a brief content warning for this episode. This episode contains some strong language and adult themes, but let's return to the conversation now live at the Hackney Empire in London.

[Dolly Alderton]

Before we move on, can I do my transatlantic quiz? I'm so excited because this is your hometown and you are now officially British, by the way.

[Lena Dunham]

She is writing this in a notebook where she also found a Covid gratitude list, which is one of the darkest things that can happen to a person.

[Dolly Alderton]

It was so awful. It's so many pages. One of them was what I value today, my commitment to self worth.

[Lena Dunham]

But when she says it, it's.

[Dolly Alderton]

Some of them are a bit lighter. Saturday, 18th of July. Today I'm grateful for waking up without a hangover. I also found I was like, what's this page? And it just said Brenda. And then underneath it said a lot of past lives. And I realized it was a reading I did with a psychic during COVID and I made some notes. Okay, so I want to ask you some questions about NOW about how British you now are. What is your deliveroo? Go to.

[Lena Dunham]

That's a great question. I love to eat a.

[Dolly Alderton]

We are hanging on your every word.

[Lena Dunham]

I'm at this. I thought you were about to be like, what's your Deliveroo? Code 86. It's sausage. It's a breakfast sausage sandwich, but it has vegan Linda McCartney sausage on it. And it comes from Black Sheep Coffee. And it's fucking perfect. I don't know what to say.

[Dolly Alderton]

Wow.

[Lena Dunham]

It's perfect. And it's one of those things that's humiliating to eat in front of another person. It's even humiliating to men. It's a private food.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, yeah, I know those.

[Lena Dunham]

But you. So that's my delivery. Go to order. I missed it the whole time I was gone.

[Dolly Alderton]

Who is your favorite Spice Girl?

[Lena Dunham]

Ginger.

[Dolly Alderton]

Me too.

[Lena Dunham]

I met Ginger and it was like I hadn't thought about her in a long time. But you know, when it hits at something. It was like the fifth grader in me that wanted to go home was also the person that was seeing Ginger. And I just. I lost my mind. And she is as luminous, maybe even more so.

[Dolly Alderton]

She is like a little Doll with a Disney face.

[Lena Dunham]

She's a little doll with a Disney face. And I love her pivot into like NASCAR wife.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, I interviewed her and I went to her house and she made me a cup of tea and it was like royal china. Like, like coronation china. And I was like, oh, is this ironic or is this real? And she was like, what do you mean? And she was like. I was like, oh, because some people aren't like, like aren't really into the royals. And she was like, are you not into the royals? Like, really upset. And I was like, not really that much. And then she said to me, can I tell you why? I've read your memoir and I think you don't like being left out. I was like, yeah. Also all the Commonwealth stuff, I don't know, there's.

[Lena Dunham]

There's that too. But also, like the sincerity of that read. But also that it's like a vicious burn.

[Quince Brand Narrator]

I know.

[Lena Dunham]

Like, it's like.

[Dolly Alderton]

And also read me for filth. Absolutely true things.

[Lena Dunham]

You'll never be invited to the coronation.

[Dolly Alderton]

Yeah, no, she's wonderful. Great answer. Favorite Take that member.

[Lena Dunham]

Wait, okay, I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. Is Take that the one where there was the one guy and he was gay and they made a documentary and it was hard for him to.

[Dolly Alderton]

No, that's Boyzone.

[Lena Dunham]

Fuck. But that's my favorite one. Okay. I love Stephen Gately. Yes, we can take that. I love Stephen Gately. I thought his story was tragic and complex and I basically. If there's a gay member. Yeah, I'm there.

[Dolly Alderton]

Jury's out on Take that.

[Lena Dunham]

Take that. The one that was married to Kerry Katona.

[Dolly Alderton]

Take that is Robbie Williams. Gary Barlow. Jason Orange.

[Lena Dunham]

I like Gary Barlow.

[Dolly Alderton]

Wow.

[Lena Dunham]

I just said it. I never thought it before. I just said it right now.

[Dolly Alderton]

There's a headline.

[Lena Dunham]

My entire tour goes fine. And then they're like. She mentions Gary Barlow as her favorite. Take that. Member,

[Dolly Alderton]

what's your favorite British word or phrase?

[Lena Dunham]

British word or phrase? I'm, you know, cunt.

[Dolly Alderton]

Do Americans not say that?

[Lena Dunham]

If you hear cunt in America, it's because you've done something naughty, you've broken, you've burnt dinner. You know, that's the energy. If you hear cunt in America, it's a casual cunt. No, the joke. I made up some. You know when you like, just make up a little stand up joke in the shower, even if you're not a stand up comedian. And I was like. And I was like, oh, cunt's a bad word. I thought it was just the nickname that some of my exes called me.

[Dolly Alderton]

Very good voice of a generation. That's why. What is the main difference between British men and American men? Having now been amorous with both.

[Lena Dunham]

Okay, I'm going to throw. Real talk coming right at you.

[Dolly Alderton]

Go on.

[Lena Dunham]

Cover your ears, Luis. Okay. American men talk a big game and then shrivel in the moment. Like, I've literally had an American man say, I'm sorry, I'm feeling very overwhelmed. Because you have a Wikipedia page. Like, can I roll over for a moment? That kind of thing. British men, you go, what's going to happen? Where is this going to go? He's kind of a little bit holding back. And then you see, like, you're like, there's a vampire in the bed with me. Like, some. They, like, transmute and something happens. I don't know. I've only had sex with one British guy, you guys. I just. I'm talking a big game now. But that's what it came to me immediately, is I feel like there's a little switch that happens.

[Dolly Alderton]

Okay.

[Lena Dunham]

There's an American cockiness that is not always backed up with the reality of what you're about to get.

[Dolly Alderton]

Last question.

[Lena Dunham]

Okay. You're so good at this, you could host a quiz show.

[Dolly Alderton]

Tell me what you think the following things are. Branston pickle.

[Lena Dunham]

I think it is a pickle that has been sitting in the brine so long that it has grown brown and gelatinous. And then you spread it over toast.

[Dolly Alderton]

Well done.

[Lena Dunham]

Is that what it is?

[Dolly Alderton]

That is what it is.

[Lena Dunham]

Oh, my God. That came from somewhere that. I don't know. I transmuted that.

[Dolly Alderton]

That may not be its specific fermentation process, but that is definitely the final product. What do you think an S Club Junior is?

[Lena Dunham]

Was it the younger group of S Club 7 members who are gonna be the reason? I know this is because I came to England for one week when I was 13, and all I watched was S Club 7, and I went back home. Like, I was the first person ever to hear the Strokes. I was like, you cannot believe the kind of music that they're making over there. I was like, fuck the mercy beat. Like, they've got something so good.

[Dolly Alderton]

And my last is. Do you know what it is to be chuffed and gutted?

[Lena Dunham]

Chuffed is like, you're delighted things have gone exactly as you hoped. I'm chuffed with this audience.

[Dolly Alderton]

Perfect.

[Lena Dunham]

Gutted is when you're sad. Like, how I'm gutted that we have to move on to the Next section. Okay. That was. We didn't even plan that. That's my girl. Okay. So we thought because it was a sleepover party, that it's not complete with sleepover games. Up till now, we've been inviting women to the stage. But since we both talked about how we had some trouble bagging men back in our sleepover days, I thought we'd bring some boys to the stage tonight. And we are going to start with one of my favorite British boys. He's an incredible writer. Everybody go home, Google him. Read everything he's ever put into the world. He's got a craven and miraculous mind. Ladies and gentlemen, Charles Fox.

[Louise Felber]

Hello,

[Lena Dunham]

Charles.

[Charles Fox]

Am I allowed to move your jacket?

[Lena Dunham]

Of course you are.

[Charles Fox]

You gave me permission to do this.

[Lena Dunham]

What you guys should know is one of my best friends, Alyssa, we're so obsessed with Charles, we have a group with him called Charles Fox Supremacy.

[Charles Fox]

I did not give it that name. I just wanna say.

[Lena Dunham]

And then we have another group called the Charlie Fox Incident that he's not on. Oh, my God.

[Charles Fox]

That's gonna be the name of my band.

[Lena Dunham]

Yeah. And we're gonna be the girls that stand. The Palmer Girls that stand behind you. So do you know the premise of Fuck, Marry, Kill, Charles?

[Charles Fox]

I'm familiar with that game.

[Lena Dunham]

I hear some Monica taught me that here. Sometimes they call it so Snog, Mary Avoid.

[Charles Fox]

Oh, yeah. There, that's the more PC version.

[Lena Dunham]

Yeah. No, we're not.

[Charles Fox]

We're not going to play that version.

[Lena Dunham]

We're not going to. Although in Philadelphia we called it Mary Reform. So Dolly is going to present to you our categories.

[Charles Fox]

Okay.

[Dolly Alderton]

Okay. Marry, Kill, Sex, Food and shopping.

[Charles Fox]

What? So I could fuck fucking. This is a possibility. I could fuck food.

[Louise Felber]

I.

[Charles Fox]

Or I could shopping. I mean, I'm gonna say I'm incredibly hungover.

[Lena Dunham]

You're hungover now.

[Charles Fox]

You're a devil, Lena Dudham, for doing this to me, messaging me this morning. You're gonna be my. One of my little guests. And now I'm here.

[Lena Dunham]

Little guests ruin.

[Charles Fox]

Yeah. Enormous guest, Huge guest lusting after supremacy.

[Dolly Alderton]

Does that mean if you're hungover, you're basically only thinking about food and. Because.

[Charles Fox]

Yeah, of course. Always. Well, I mean, I've gotta. Come on. Yes, you have to. Because that would be. That's like a sort of beautiful, like, Cronenberg situation. Like, that's going to be so juicy. And then I'm going to marry food. Because then I'll always have food. Yeah, I think that's like a good, logical situation. And I'm. You Know, I'm. I'm a slender boy, and then I would. Am I going to kill shopping? Yes, I am. This could be, like, a progressive thing that I'm going to say for the evening. I'm going to get rid of that. And we should all be consuming less and mending our clothes and rehoming dogs.

[Dolly Alderton]

Perfect answer.

[Charles Fox]

Doing beautiful things.

[Lena Dunham]

Do you say rehoming dogs?

[Charles Fox]

Yeah, rehoming them. You know, troubled dogs.

[Lena Dunham]

Are you here trying to get a girlfriend, Charles? Because that was really good. Okay. We love that answer. Okay, so now I'm gonna. You're familiar with what a would you rather is?

[Charles Fox]

Yes, of course.

[Lena Dunham]

Okay. Would you rather have to show your ex all of your texts from the six months immediately after your breakup? The ones that are about them so good. Or parade fully nude back in front of the Rose store on New York's Madison Avenue during rush hour?

[Charles Fox]

Parading.

[Lena Dunham]

I mean, you have to walk proudly.

[Charles Fox]

What's the Rose Store? You have to tell me as an English person.

[Lena Dunham]

It's the Olsen twins. Quiet luxury shopping mecca.

[Dolly Alderton]

If you want to buy a pair of socks for around two grand, that's

[Charles Fox]

where you go, oh, I've got to do that. I'm not sharing the text. That would be horrible. It would be so degrading to have to, like, go.

[Lena Dunham]

Degrading to you or degrading to them?

[Charles Fox]

Degrading to everyone. Be one of those things. Just the room would be embarrassed on my behalf. The chair would cringe just to be like, what are you doing? This is a nightmare. I mean, parading. I could get into it. Am I allowed to have drugs when I'm doing it?

[Lena Dunham]

Yeah, you can have anything you want as long as you walk proudly.

[Charles Fox]

Oh, fantastic. Yeah. I would be singing and have some, like, Donna Summer something. And I can. If I can be. We. I can be nude. But if I could have, like, a wig would be great. Something like, with, like, mirror ball vibe.

[Lena Dunham]

Yeah, we can allow a wig.

[Charles Fox]

Do some acid. Yeah, that'd be great. Much rather. And then, like, high five the Olsens. And they come in. What's up, girls? I remember when they were going to arrive at the Jane Hotel. Remember the Jane Hotel was where they would go. And it was like, ah, the Olsens are coming.

[Lena Dunham]

If you don't think that I've gotten fingered at the Jane Hotel with an olson walking back in front of the door, then you got another thing coming.

[Charles Fox]

Come on. Like this. It was. It was a great institution. It's sad that it's not there anymore. Well, it is there, but they don't go there anymore.

[Lena Dunham]

No. Because they're at the row store on Madison Avenue waiting for Charles Fox, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you. Thank you for doing this. I'll come to see you right after. I wanted to bring out. I wanted to bring out my most special boys. I loved his answers.

[Louise Felber]

Yeah.

[Dolly Alderton]

And by the way, I agree with all of them.

[Lena Dunham]

Me, too.

[Dolly Alderton]

That sounds like a fun day out for me on Madison Avenue.

[Lena Dunham]

We're gonna do it together and let all those girls that we had the bad sleepovers with see what they were missing. Okay. Our next guest, he's a close and personal friend of the podcast. Ladies and gentlemen, Louise Felber.

[Dolly Alderton]

Hello.

[Lena Dunham]

Hi, Bunny.

[Dolly Alderton]

Thank you.

[Lena Dunham]

Hello. What are you trying to prove?

[Dolly Alderton]

Prove away my feelings.

[Louise Felber]

Just saying. Hi.

[Lena Dunham]

Okay.

[Charles Fox]

Hi.

[Dolly Alderton]

Fuck, marry, kill.

[Charles Fox]

Whoa.

[Louise Felber]

Straight in there.

[Lena Dunham]

Yeah.

[Dolly Alderton]

This one gets. This is quite philosophical. Your ability to feel guilt, your connection to a higher power, or your libido. Fuck, marry, kill. Your ability to feel your connection to a higher power.

[Louise Felber]

I love how me and Charlie both started with what?

[Lena Dunham]

We fuck. That is, by the way, literally every woman who's come out here has been like. Even though the order is fuck, marry, kill has been like, okay, I'm gonna marry. Yeah,

[Louise Felber]

I'm not hungover as well. Maybe it's just a Sunday thing. I would. I would fuck my libido, because why not?

[Lena Dunham]

Charlie fucked fucking. You fucked your libido.

[Louise Felber]

I'm copying Charlie.

[Lena Dunham]

You're not breaking any stereotypes up here.

[Louise Felber]

I'd kill my ability to feel guilt. Wow, that'd be pretty crazy. I'm turning myself into, like, a Bond villain, and I'd marry my connection to a higher power.

[Lena Dunham]

That was a good answer, my love.

[Louise Felber]

Thank you. That's a great question.

[Lena Dunham]

Okay. Would you rather get on Instagram and post, I'm really suffering, you guys, with just a picture of butt cream? Or write your most shameful masturbation fantasy as an essay for CNN.com that has to end with the sentence, I will not be silenced. And you can't ever explain to anyone why you did either.

[Louise Felber]

What would I do if I was asked about the CNN thing? I just change the subject.

[Lena Dunham]

You'd be like, this is my work. I'm here to break taboos. You have to stand behind it for the rest of your life.

[Louise Felber]

I think I'd have to do the CNN one. It's just too, you know, vast and something fun might come out of it.

[Dolly Alderton]

You definitely find community.

[Lena Dunham]

You mean like us splitting up?

[Dolly Alderton]

You would definitely find some community. You'd find your people.

[Lena Dunham]

Yeah.

[Louise Felber]

At Least the community.

[Lena Dunham]

You know what I feel? At least it would be honest. Whereas the butt cream. You might get messages from people that were like, me too, dude. And you'd feel so guilty.

[Louise Felber]

Yeah.

[Lena Dunham]

Luis, thank you for bringing me to London and to all these beautiful people.

[Louise Felber]

I'm so proud of you.

[Lena Dunham]

Love you.

[Louise Felber]

Thank you for this wondrous book that we all have now. It's in our psyches.

[Lena Dunham]

My honey.

[Louise Felber]

Am I over now? Can I go?

[Lena Dunham]

Ladies and gentlemen, Louise Felber. Okay, I'm going to chuck one at you because you're just too much fun.

[Dolly Alderton]

Go on.

[Lena Dunham]

Okay. Would you rather have to go to Burning man and livestream the whole thing? Totally. Seriously. Like, make. Create one of those camps, form alliances, or go to Coachella with one of those headbands across your head like that, like it's 2010 and sit on a guy's shoulders.

[Dolly Alderton]

I mean, the amazing thing about being millennial now is that we are so deeply cringe. Everything about us is so appalling to every other generation that I have completely abandoned any. I'm fine with wearing the headband and maybe even feathers in the hair, maybe.

[Lena Dunham]

Yep.

[Dolly Alderton]

I'm absolutely fine. A bit of neon around the neck.

[Lena Dunham]

Yeah, I don't.

[Dolly Alderton]

I could deal with that. I think. I can't do Burning Man. What would you do?

[Lena Dunham]

100% Coachella and maybe enjoy it. Burning man is a UTI waiting to happen. So now we get to do more connection. We are going to move to a little Q and a portion of the evening. You guys have been submitting questions via the QR code. Dolly is going to read them out, and then we are going to. We have a professional agony in the house. I'm just an intern.

[Dolly Alderton]

Holly asks, how often do you blur the lines between autobiography and fiction?

[Lena Dunham]

Thank you for that thoughtful question, Holly. I would say, and I'm sure there are many writers. Even if something is really outside of my experience, I have to find something in it that feels personal to be able to go for it. So, for example, when I was directing industry, I went. I don't know what any of these people are talking about. I've never spent time with a man in a fleece vest. But what I can connect to is that the idea of ambition and the idea, like, what is the cost of ambition? And you find that thread that you can hold onto. In my memoir, I didn't blur the lines at all. Every one of those memories is exactly as it happened. And if anybody tells you otherwise, then they're misleading you.

[Dolly Alderton]

Rachel asks, what do you Think Nora Ephron would have said to you about the writing of and the final work of fame? Sick. For people who haven't read the book, there is beautiful sequences with Nora Ephron, who watched Tiny Furniture, fell in love with it, fell in love with you, took you out for a series of lunches, told you what fridge to buy, told you what boyfriend to have told you how to live your life. And it sounds like just the most wonderful friendship that you had with her.

[Lena Dunham]

She was the most remarkable friends, funny wise. I mean, everything she said was like. You were reading a line from her book. Like, there's a part in the book where I talk about a kind of like, gay super producer had written me some scary emails and I thought, I'll never eat lunch in this town again. And she said, lena, if he was straight, we all would have fucked him and we all would have wondered why. And I just, like, she had a perfect response to everything. And the thing that is oft quoted of hers is this everything is copy idea, which I feel like we're taking. We're using as an. Like, everything is copy is sort of like bleeding into, like, I'm doing it for the story, which doing it for the story will only take us so far. But that idea she had, it's a little bit like Alyssa said, which is, everything that happens to you belongs to you. And, like, what are you going to make out of it? And she was really. The thing that was amazing about her was that after she died, I felt like, okay, I have this special, private, anointed relationship with her. I met 60 women, young women, to whom she'd given that kind of attention. And I thought, fuck you. It was this amazing thing where I could not believe the capacity she had. And looking back where I am now, I understand that she felt a deep concern and desire to protect people because of everything that she had experienced. Being the only woman in a, you know, in a big bullpen of guys at the New York Post and making movies at a moment when, like, being a female director was like being like a fucking cheetah walking through Manhattan. And she wanted to make it easier for people. And. And it was a real gift.

[Dolly Alderton]

She would have loved Fame Sick. I think she's someone who was so unafraid of examining the kind of rawest and most painful things that has happened to her and then repurposing it into something that is entertaining and relatable and moving. She would have absolutely adored it.

[Lena Dunham]

I'll never forget I was telling her something about a breakup and I was feeling stressed about it and I was like, I hope I never run into him again. And she said, well, I managed to avoid my ex husband for 30 years and then last week I ran into him and he was getting a pedicure next to me. And she said, and if you survive long enough, you'll get to see them again in a situation that is so embarrassing.

[Dolly Alderton]

Wonderful. Camilla says Girls captures this moment just before I should have worn my glasses. Social media and smartphones became so ubiquitous. Have you ever thought about what ways those characters or the tone of the show would be different if it was set in today's hyper visible, social media driven world?

[Lena Dunham]

You know, this just came to me. I don't think there would be a show because no one would hang out with each other. Yeah, they. The show would be four women resting their phone on their boobs, being like, you really haven't been there for me lately. Like the. The entire premise, Sex and the City, is the same way. Like the entire premise of going somewhere together, going to the same place so you can fight. And it was so funny because at the time we were trying to capture this sort of like rising sense. And I remember I have not watched the Girls pilot basically since we made it, but somebody reminded me, Alison Williams reminded me that we were like, here's the totem of chat. If a guy messages you on Facebook, it means he doesn't like you at all. If he messages on Instagram, he likes you a little more and if he texts you, then you know what's really happening. And it feels so quaint. I'm always amazed that young people aren't just like, don't, like, turn it off. Like It's Miracle on 34th Street.

[Dolly Alderton]

Speaking of girls, I found out something yesterday that has chilled me to my core, which is I heard you in an interview say that my favorite ever line from Girls was. Was improvised. Which is. I'm sure you will know it when Hannah takes cocaine for the first time and gives a speech to Marnie saying that she's actually not the bad friend, not the good friend, and you're not the bad friend. And Hannah lists all the things that she doesn't want to do anymore as part of being friends with Marnie, one of which is get a frozen hot chocolate at Serendipity with your uncle's girlfriend, who is a stewardess named Elodie, is the answer.

[Lena Dunham]

Elodie?

[Dolly Alderton]

How can that be improv? I just. For me, that's like King Lear. How did you do that?

[Lena Dunham]

You guys? The only thing I can say is that we had been snorting originally lactate powder. And then Andrew was honest on stage the other day. We both got diarrhea because you can't snort that much milk. It's going down the same hole, you know?

[Dolly Alderton]

And by the way, it's much like taking cocaine.

[Lena Dunham]

Correct. And so we switched to vitamin B powder. And I think it supercharged my mind. That's what I think happened for one day. It supercharged my mind.

[Dolly Alderton]

But I was surprised, reading in the book, that Judd really enjoyed improvisation.

[Lena Dunham]

It's one of his great passions. I mean, he'll have you just improvise. He'll just have you go and go and go. He'll shout lines at you while you're going, and you have to keep it up. I remember once being on set with him, and he was shouting lines at someone. He was shouting lines at Albert Brooks, and then someone was being really noisy, and he said, what the hell is going on in here? And Albert Brooks went, what the hell is going on in here? Because he thought it was another line, but Judd was just angry.

[Dolly Alderton]

And how is your. As a director and writer, how. How is your relationship to improv with actors?

[Lena Dunham]

I love it because I think that even if you just get one little moment, often it's like the most honest moment. I mean, we have a king, my friend. One of my favorite improvisers, Leo Rake, is in the house. And I'm lucky enough to have a. I play the resident millennial in his excellent new show, It Gets Worse. And I feel so proud to have come to an age where. Where I can just, like, go in for a day and be incredibly embarrassing. Like, he gave me a line that's like, as a strong feminist, white woman in power, and I was like, just put these repulsive lines in my mouth. Boo. I live for it. I would never say something like that in real life. I'd never even think something like that. But I think that if you have confidence in your writing, then you can give people freedom to go off peace and then know that you can bring it back. I never know when people are, like, so covetous, because it's like, at the end of the day, you're editing it like you've got the power. And so to bring people in in a way that is hopefully feels generous is always really nice.

[Dolly Alderton]

Anon from a fellow EDS powerhouse. How has your EDS affected your relationships with others and the relationship to your own body?

[Lena Dunham]

Great question for people who don't know, and it's in the book. EDS is Ehler Danlos syndrome. It's a group of inherited connective tissue and soft tissue disorders. And I think one of the big lessons for me of chronic illness is we're all headed in the same direction. Unless Elon Musk is able to pull through and give us those cyborg casings, we're all heading in the same direction. And I think we have a real Western terror of our bodies failing or changing. I mean, the lengths that we go to. And the thing about chronic illness, is it challenge, especially in young people, is it challenges all these social norms. It makes you less reliable under the capitalist machine. It means that you are maybe, like, not as fun at a moment when people really want fun. It means sometimes you are going through things that mean that you can't sort of have that, like, youthful joie de vivre. And I think coming to terms with the fact that other people's responses to that may not actually be about you. It may be. I mean, you never know if, like, someone had to live with illness in their house when they were a kid and it makes them feel scared or if they feel that there's, you know, something like a little shaky in them that it touches, or maybe you're spin a whiny fucking bitch and they don't know I'm joking. But I think that the experience, it's actually been very freeing to realize that I'm having this very profound experience of my body. And if I can really tap into it, there's actually something quite beautiful about sort of starting to get a sense of this very circuitous life journey that we're on. And that some of my relationships have. There's been, like, distance, and then there's been conversations about that distance that have been really healing. There's been people where I suddenly realize, like, I don't fit into their sense of what their lives look like anymore, and that's okay. And then there's also been people who've showed up in ways that are so unbelievable and beautiful. And I hate saying, like, everything happens for a reason. We know that's a lie. That being said, there is a real. And you had someone who'd been through a lot say to me, you will come to be grateful for every part of your experience. And I really have.

[Dolly Alderton]

Thank you.

[Lena Dunham]

Thank you.

[Dolly Alderton]

This is a great one. Lucy asks, what is your favorite Taylor Swift so song?

[Lena Dunham]

Do you have a favorite Taylor Swift song?

[Dolly Alderton]

So I'm a Latter Life Swiftie. Can you believe I discovered Taylor Swift at Midnight? At which point I was like, this is really something Special.

[Lena Dunham]

This girl, she's really got it.

[Dolly Alderton]

She's got it. I predict very big things for her. And I continue to be a Taylor Swift contrarian because my favorite song is Wood. It's so good, that song.

[Lena Dunham]

I love that song, too. And my father cannot stop quoting it out around and about the house. He thinks it is just the best little pun in Texas. And I. I love that song, too. I love Wood. I think it's got a John T beat. My favorite song. I'm an early adopter, like, when, you know, like, Ryan Adams started, like, covering 1986 or whatever. And I was like, some of us have been here since the beginning. And I love hey Steven. And something embarrassing that I did is at the beginning of Girls, when I really, like, was going overboard with preparing. Like, I was trying to prove to people like, I'm a serious director. This is how you do it. I made a mixtape for Adam Driver as Hannah to Adam.

[Dolly Alderton]

I love that.

[Lena Dunham]

That contained hey Steven. And that's something I'm gonna have to live with till the day I die.

[Dolly Alderton]

Rihanna asks Hannah's soundtrack in Girls is Robin's Dancing on My Own. Lena, what is the soundtrack to your 20s versus your 30s?

[Lena Dunham]

Oh, my God, that's such a good. I mean, I feel like the soundtrack to your 20s is like any. Any one of those songs. It's like, I'm alone, but I'm. But I'm still out here, and you guys are gonna find me dancing in the light by myself. But I'm with you, you know, like that. That genre. We all know the sort. And then you get into your 30s and you're like, you know who's great? Joni Mitchell. You know what I love to do is Pat around the house listening to Blue.

[Dolly Alderton]

What's gonna be your 40s soundtrack, I wonder.

[Lena Dunham]

I mean, I'm so afraid that it's going to be my mother's, which is like her walking around the house belting Great American Songbook, that it's going to. It's just going to be a Cole Porter a thon till the day I die.

[Dolly Alderton]

How do you feel about. It's so. It's so interesting that this book has come out a month before you turn 40. In the same way that I think Girls closed at the exact moment your 30s closed, didn't it? Around the same time it did.

[Lena Dunham]

We wrapped just a few months after I turned 30.

[Dolly Alderton]

Exactly. So how is that. How do you feel about the end of your 30s in comparison to how at the end of your 20s felt?

[Lena Dunham]

Well, I Remember finishing the show and being like, well, I guess I'm just going to go pop out six or eight kids and pack it in. Like, I just had. I had no idea how much was still coming. Whereas now I pitched to my family, I was like, I've got a great idea for a 40th birthday party. I make a giant crib. I dress up like a baby. You guys come in and say, she's beautiful. She's going to have the most amazing life.

[Dolly Alderton]

I hate to admit this, but I actually do have a giant baby costume. Because when my best friend Folly, who I wrote a memoir about when she had a baby, I had a breakdown about it. So I decided to get drunk at her baby shower and surprise her with a drunken dance dressed as a baby. That outfit's somewhere and I'm willing to.

[Lena Dunham]

Did she like it or was she like, we have to talk about this later.

[Dolly Alderton]

I think all my best friends here who are here can say that it was a very bad day for them and that no one really enjoyed the baby dance other than me. And I danced to Justin Bieber's Baby.

[Lena Dunham]

Anyway, I love everything about it. I also once had a brief. We can't call it an affair, but with a guy who said, let's FaceTime. And then he said, hold it up like that. And then he said, crib cam. And then he pretended like he was saying hi to a little baby through the crib cam. And I said, you're blocked. You're blocked forever. Okay, last two cues.

[Dolly Alderton]

Clara, I feel like theatre is in again. Have you ever thought about writing plays? I actually was going to ask you this.

[Lena Dunham]

That's such a great question. I mean, when did theater go out, guys? But I do think people. I'm seeing a lot of youths going to the theater. It's not just. It's not just people on oxygen anymore. It used to be in New York, you just heard like a full. Like the place would have if someone had dropped a match. What had happened with my nightgown had happened. Whole place up in flames. Just. Just old couples sucking on their oxygen. And I do see the youths going back to theater. You know, I love the theater, but the thing that I love about making movies is that you only have to do it once. I like. I want to have a multitude of experiences one time, and not one experience a multitude of times. So sue me. Yeah, but I love the question. And I can't wait to see. I can't wait to see all the chicest new plays this year.

[Dolly Alderton]

I'm Obsessed with this being the last question.

[Lena Dunham]

I know, because it's like, you think the last question is going to be the question with the most depth, and this is the one with the least depth.

[Dolly Alderton]

Do you have a go to meal deal? So good.

[Lena Dunham]

I like Leon. Any Leon fans in the house, we have to be proud. And I like the vegan chicken nuggets at Leon with waffle fries. And then you can have a Carma Cola with that.

[Dolly Alderton]

Wonderful.

[Lena Dunham]

What about you? Does that count? What I just said, does that count?

[Dolly Alderton]

Yes. I'm gonna go more classic. My meal deal favorite is from Boots. It's a prawn cocktail sandwich. It's salt and vinegar squares. It's a bottle of sparkling water.

[Lena Dunham]

A prawn cocktail sandwich is still something that I'm wrestling with.

[Dolly Alderton]

Really.

[Lena Dunham]

It's. I. Every time someone starts to eat one in a room with me, I think of a reason to go, okay, thank

[Dolly Alderton]

you for warning me.

[Lena Dunham]

But I thank you for warning me. I love you so much that I could probably find something cute in it. I remember once a friend of mine was dating a girl and she said, I knew it was over when she ate a tuna sandwich in front of me. And that's a little bit how I feel about this.

[Charles Fox]

Okay.

[Dolly Alderton]

I'm glad I know.

[Lena Dunham]

But I. You could do. You could do fucking anything to me. Dolly and I would just take it

[Dolly Alderton]

well before we end because.

[Lena Dunham]

Yeah, it's not fully over. We have one more. No, no, we have one more little bit after this. I don't want you guys to freak out, but.

[Dolly Alderton]

But before we end, I just want to say something really sincere for a minute. Your work is the first time that my experiences were reflected in culture. And I feel like we're having a real moment with this book of recognizing that and appreciating it in a way that maybe we didn't before because it was drowned out with all other sorts of noise, but it was the first time I saw in culture, me and my friends bodies, me and my friends conversations, the experiences we were having, the mistakes that we were making. Unfortunately, the sex that we were having. This book is phenomenal because it's about surviving the extremities of unthinkable sickness, in health and in fame. And I think we can all say we are so glad that you survived it, because a world without the promise of so much more. Lena Dunham. Art is not a world that I want to live in.

[Lena Dunham]

I love you very much and that. I'm not gonna fight that. I'm gonna take that in. Thank you, babe. Thank you. Love you. Thank you all so much. All right, so because we're having an evening, we thought we would end with a little meditation. How does everybody feel about just meditating together? So we're gonna bring the lights down. We're gonna bring them back down. We're gonna bring on some nice, soothing sp bomb music. Thank you, darling. You know, it's been. Since COVID it's been so hard to find community, and we just have to take it where we can get it, right, guys? So let's slow it down. Okay? I want you all to close your eyes, and I want you to really focus on where you are right now. I want you to let your legs sink into the floor, and I want you to consider that every part of your body will one day be food for the worms unless you're lucky enough to be cremated by someone who's not tired of you. Actually, let's release that. We don't need to think about that. All these thoughts, these intrusive thoughts, they're just like, you know, influencers walking by in cute outfits. You can just let them go, guys, because we're here in community. And what is community if not a chance to experience, at very best, deep annoyance and judgment towards people you'll never really know, and at worst, profound rifts that define the rest of your life. Let's let that go. Let's let that fade away. Let's think about the chance that you have to wake up tomorrow and start again. You can do it differently this time because the sun always comes up until the day it doesn't, and it feels like we're pretty close to that. But who you are, this illusion of insert your name here, who's defined by their Netflix cue and their preferred cut of denim that will follow you around for the rest of your time on this planet unless you figure out how to change your name, do away with your Social Security number, and like that girl in the documentary who stole her sister's passport and got plastic surgery to look more like her so that she could escape a murder. Have you guys seen that one? Yeah. You have? It was number one we saw. But you wouldn't murder anyone. Or would you? How far could you be pushed when it really came down to it? Cause statistically, you guys, someone in this room is going to. To commit a murder. And when the time comes and they make the documentary, they might ask you, did you see it coming? You'll say, no, they seemed great. But let's not think about that. Let's focus on our breath. Let's focus on the in and the out and the steady pumping of oxygen to your heart. But what percentage of this air really is oxygen anymore? And what percentage is a mark by Marc Jacobs, body splash and the flop sweat of people just hoping to be perceived. You know what? Meditating's hard. It doesn't have to look one particular way. We are so grateful that you joined us here tonight. I want to thank my beautiful friend Dolly Alderton, Intelligence Squared, the historic Hackney Empire and Waterstones Waterstone Girly in the house. And I want you all to remember that you are capable of great things and you're also capable of being a nasty little slut. It is an absolute honor. You have made my life. Thank you.

[Mia Sorrenti]

Thanks for listening to Intelligence Squared. This episode was produced by Margarita Volpato and it was edited by Jasmine Davies. For ad free episodes and full length recordings, you can become a [e-mail] membership and if you'd like to join us at future live events, you can see our full events program and buy [e-mail] attend. You've been listening to Intelligence Squared. Thanks for joining us.

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[Lena Dunham]

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[Lena Dunham]

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