Life and Death in the KGB, with The Rest is Classified’s Gordon Corera (Part One)

Summary

Intelligence Squared Podcast
Episode: Life and Death in the KGB, with The Rest is Classified’s Gordon Corera (Part One)
Date: June 14, 2026
Host: Sean Walker
Guest: Gordon Corera
Location: Live at Conway Hall

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Episode Overview

In this compelling live discussion, Guardian correspondent Sean Walker interviews Gordon Corera—co-host of "The Rest is Classified" and former BBC security correspondent—about Corera’s latest book, "The Spy in the Archive." The episode explores the secretive world of the KGB, focusing on the remarkable true story of Vasily Mitrokhin: a KGB archivist-turned-defector who smuggled thousands of pages of classified files from Soviet Russia. Corera and Walker unravel how Mitrokhin’s journey illuminates both the nature and enduring legacy of the KGB, and why its mindset and methods still shape modern Russia today.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Why Write About Mitrokhin? The Genesis of the Book

• Walker introduces Corera as a leading journalist on security and intelligence, highlighting his experience with the BBC and personal connection to Russian deep-cover operations through his own reporting and research using the Mitrokhin archive (02:18-04:15).
• Corera explains his motivation:
  • The evolution of his focus from terrorism post-9/11 to Russia’s increasing significance in global security (04:15-06:44).
  • Recognizes gaps in public and personal knowledge about the KGB’s roots and legacy.
  • Drawn to Mitrokhin’s personal journey: “There was this interesting chap...the details of his life story and how he was exfiltrated from Russia are secret and unknown. And I thought, ah, there’s a secret. I’d quite like to find that one out...” (04:53, Corera)

2. Origins and Ideology of the KGB

• Corera sets the historical foundation:
  • The KGB lineage traces to the Bolshevik Revolution and Lenin’s creation of the Cheka, an institution blending state protection with revolutionary paranoia and brutality (07:20-09:57).
  • Despite shifting names (Cheka, GPU, OGPU, NKVD, MGB, KGB, FSB, SVR), a persistent culture and identity endure—“Chekists”—who justify ruthless means as serving a higher revolutionary cause:
    • "It is rooted in the fear and the desire to protect the revolution...you do whatever it takes to protect the revolution, the motherland...even if it means having blood on your hands.” (08:24, Corera)
  • This worldview, Corera argues, persists in Russian statecraft today.

3. Mitrokhin’s Early Life and KGB Career

• Mitrokhin as insider turned skeptic:
  • Born rural post-revolutionary Russia, rose to become a KGB foreign intelligence officer.
  • Early postings: Ukraine (as a prosecutor, witnessing Stalinist violence), Israel, and the 1956 Melbourne Olympics (07:20-12:19).
  • Ultimately sidelined to KGB archives after a failed foreign posting—a “punishment” that would have unforeseen consequences.

4. Transformation in the Archives: Witnessing the Truth

• Transformation from believer to dissenter:
  • Banished with a grievance, Mitrokhin begins to see the “variance between what the KGB presents...and the truth.”
  • The Prague Spring is a turning point: he observes KGB methods used for repression at home and against dissidents abroad.
  • The archives reveal paranoia and cruelty: “Destroying some files...spying on exiles abroad...maybe it might be a good idea to plot breaking Rudolf Nureyev’s legs because he defected...” (12:19-16:14, Corera)

5. How Did Mitrokhin Gain Unprecedented Access?

• The administrative loophole:
  • In 1972, the KGB's foreign intelligence headquarters moves, and Mitrokhin is tasked with sorting all files—granting him rare total access (19:39-21:38).
  • Meticulously copies secrets by hand, smuggling notes home to be transcribed, then hides them in milk churns beneath the floorboards of his dacha:
    • “He’ll write in tiny shorthand...stick the piece of paper into his shoe and walk out...like taking a stock cube...pour boiling water back on and reconstituting it.” (21:42-22:59, Corera)

6. Obsession and Motivation: ‘Writing for the Drawer’

• Mitrokhin’s lonely mission:
  • For over a decade, he builds an archive, influenced by the Soviet dissident tradition of “writing for the drawer”—preserving truth for an unknown future audience (24:48-29:30).
  • Family members largely unaware; his project is solitary and somewhat eccentric:
    • “I always think this is also a bit weird...he’s the kind of person who goes, I’m just going to the shed, darling, I’ll see you later.” (24:48-25:31, Corera)
  • Lacks any real escape plan for years; the material could have vanished with him if not for the dramatic collapse of the Soviet Union.

7. Soviet Collapse: Seizing the Chance

• KGB’s failed coup and the fall of Soviet power:
  • In 1991, a failed hardliner coup triggers the USSR’s dissolution.
  • The toppling of Felix Dzerzhinsky’s statue outside KGB headquarters signals a symbolic end (28:43-29:30).
  • Mitrokhin finally spies his window to defect and share his archive.

8. Attempts to Defect: Americans Say No, Brits Say Yes

• The Americans’ missed opportunity:
  • Mitrokhin approaches the CIA multiple times, but is dismissed—drowned out by a flood of less-substantial defectors and skepticism (29:30-31:30).
  • Memorable insight: “There was a joke going around the CIA...like another drunk KGB colonel...” (29:58, Corera)
  • Mitrokhin’s unassuming manner, and lack of original files, make him less credible to American eyes.
• British success through serendipity:
  • At the British embassy in Vilnius, a young Russian-speaking diplomat offers tea, reveals interest, and takes his approach seriously:
    • “She says, would you like a cup of tea? ...he pulls out of this grubby shopping bag some of the deepest secrets of the KGB. I mean, what an unequal exchange. But a good deal.” (32:06, Corera)
  • MI6 investigates, confirms the archive's authenticity, and negotiates a rare bargain: Mitrokhin only seeks safety for his family and public exposure of the KGB’s crimes (33:54-35:41).

9. Operation Exfiltration: A Family in the Dark

• Exfiltration details and family dynamics:
  • A small MI6 team orchestrates the family’s extraction, but the son and mother-in-law remain unaware until after departure—having believed the cover story of seeking medical treatment (35:41-36:33).
  • “It’s actually a cover story not just for any border guards they meet, but actually for the son and the mother-in-law. ...the family dynamics are a lot for therapy. Complicated, but yeah.” (36:09, Corera)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On KGB culture and legacy:
  • “All through that history, from then to now, the people involved...call themselves Chekists. There is a kind of ideology which is born at that moment of the revolution.” (08:12, Corera)
• On Mitrokhin’s clandestine copying:
  • “He’s not stealing the file. He’s copying the file...like taking a stock cube, poured boiling water back on and reconstituting it.” (22:30, Corera)
• On the CIA's dismissal:
  • “There was a joke going around the CIA...another drunk KGB colonel.” (29:58, Corera)
• On British resourcefulness:
  • “As often happens, an American mistake is a British opportunity.” (32:02, Corera)
  • “She offers him a cup of tea and he pulls out...some of the deepest secrets of the KGB. ...A good deal with the sausage thrown in as well.” (32:06 & 33:07, Corera & Walker)

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Timestamps for Major Sections

• [02:18] — Introduction of Corera and the Mitrokhin story
• [04:15] — Corera on his inspiration and the importance of the KGB story
• [07:20] — Deep origin of the KGB and Chekist ideology
• [12:19] — Mitrokhin’s transformation in the archives
• [19:39] — How Mitrokhin gained access to the entire KGB archive
• [24:48] — The long, lonely secret chronicling—"writing for the drawer"
• [28:43] — The 1991 Soviet collapse and the toppling of Dzerzhinsky
• [29:44] — Failed approach to the CIA; British Embassy breakthrough
• [32:06] — “Would you like a cup of tea?”—the handoff in Vilnius
• [35:41] — Exfiltration of Mitrokhin and family

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Additional Context & Tone

The discussion is a blend of accessible storytelling, historical analysis, and humor, often dry in the British style. Both speakers mix deep expertise with anecdotes and a sense of irony about the spy world. The tone is conversational, with moments of levity—particularly around spy stereotypes, the oddness of Mitrokhin’s situation, and the quirks of international bureaucracy.

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For Further Exploration

This episode only covers "part one." Corera and Walker indicate that further details—including the impact of Mitrokhin’s revelations, the integration of his files into Western intelligence, and what it all means for understanding Russian power today—will follow in the next installment.

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Summary prepared for those interested in the shadowy intersections of history, espionage, and the lasting influence of the KGB mindset in current geopolitics.

Transcript

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[Mia Sorrenti (Producer, Intelligence Squared)]

Welcome to Intelligence Squared, where great minds meet. I'm producer Mia Sorrenti. Today's episode is part one of our recent live event with co host of the Rest is Classified and former security correspondent for BBC News, Gordon Carrera. Carrera joins Sean Walker at Conway hall to discuss life and death in the kgb. As the main intelligence and security agency of the Soviet Union from 1954 to 1991, the KGB instilled fear across Russia and sought to sow discord abroad. This network of government spies was notorious for the often brutal methods it used to keep enemies, loyalists and common people under the thumb of the state and far from fading as the USSR Old Guard fell from power. The operatives, methods and networks of the KGB remain at the heart of the Russian state today. Putin himself was a KGB officer for 16 years, including six years as a foreign intelligence officer stationed in Dresden, East Germany. Drawing on the stories of spies, defectors and dissidents, Carrera explores how the Soviet Union's most feared intelligence agency operated, why its methods and networks continue to shape modern Russia. Let's join our host, Sean Walker, now live at Conway Hall.

[Sean Walker]

Hi everyone. Good evening and welcome to this Intelligence Squared event. I'm Sean Walker and I'm delighted to be here tonight with Gordon Carrera. Thank you all for coming. It's fantastic turnout. Delighted to be here with Gordon. He's one of Britain's leading journalists on security and intelligence issues. You probably also know him as the co host with David McCloskey of the Goal Hanger podcast. The Rest is Classified. Gordon's been writing about this stuff for years. He joined the BBC in 1997 and in 2004, he was made the security correspondent and since then he's been reporting from all over the world on terrorism, national security and intelligence issues. He's the author of many books and the most recent one, and the one that we're going to talk a bit about tonight, is called the Spy in the Archive and it's about the KGB archivist Vasily Mitrokhin and how he brought thousands of pages of top secret KGB documents out of Russia when he defected to Britain. And for me, I'm really excited to be talking about this. I am a correspondent for the Guardian. I was based in Russia for many years and I wrote a book which came out last year about deep cover Russian spies. And for that book I used many of the documents that Mitrokin had taken out from the archives. So I read all of the documents, but I didn't know much about the man. And it was so interesting to read your book and find out about Mitrokin Gordon. I thought maybe to start with, you could just tell us a bit about what drew you to this character and this story. When did you find out about it? What made you want to write the story of Mitrokin?

[Gordon Carrera]

Yep. Thank you. And first of all, thank you all very much for being here on a very hot evening. Very welcome. Thank you. Also to Sean. One thing Sean didn't mention is that today, this morning, we both found out we'd been shortlisted for the Crime Writers Association Non Fiction Book of the Year award, which is called the Golden Dagger. And so both of our books, but. So we're now bitter rivals, I suddenly realize, and hopefully I was thinking, Sean is not going to produce a Dagger and kind of, you know, try and Stym his rival, but it's going to be a very friendly conversation, I hope, Sean. Yeah, we'll see. We'll see how it goes. Try and put me off, but. Yes. What drew me to it? Well, I have been covering national security and the kind of world of intelligence for about 25 years, maybe even a bit more around that 911 period. And it's been very interesting to see. When it started it was really about terrorism. The main interest was in that post 911 world. And then you could see Russia increasingly emerging as the story. And there'll be points on that journey which we might get to in the conversation where you could see it becoming more and more important. And yet I felt there were some gaps in my knowledge and maybe the public knowledge about where some of those issues had come from and what the origin were. And in particular, there was this interesting chap called Vasily Matrokin, who's I'd remembered as being a young journalist. A book coming out involving his archive in 1999, but not knowing much more about it. And then suddenly when I was researching about Russian deep cover spies, learning about him, and there was also these mysterious references to the fact the details of his life story and how he was exfiltrated from Russia are secret and unknown. And I thought, ah, there's a secret. I'd quite like to find that one out and try and work out the story, not of so much the details of the archive, but also about the man, about why he did it. And I did realize that through that and through the story of one individual, you could actually tell a much bigger story, which is about the kgb. It's about this very famous intelligence service of the Soviet Union, about where it came from, about what it did, and also I think crucially about its legacy and the fact it's kind of still around in different forms. That's, I think, what drew me to it was that you could tell a much bigger story through the lens of one individual.

[Sean Walker]

Yeah. And that's what you do so well in the book, I think, is weaving between chapters between the kind of story of Mitrokin and his escape and getting these documents out of Russia and his backstory. And in a way, the Soviet backstory is kind of a good lens to look at that and the story of the kgb. So, I mean, to set the scene a bit, and I think we'll come to the exciting escape and so on later. But, you know, Mitrokin was himself a product of the kgb. He was in the kgb. So maybe you can tell us a bit about him and about the organization at the time that he joined it.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah, it's interesting because we have come to associate that the name the KGB with all of the Soviet intelligence services through the history. But of course, it was actually just the name that was used really through the Cold War period. And it's interesting because the origins of it lie really in the immediate aftermath of the Bolshevik Revolution, when Lenin realized that there were many enemies that the Bolshevik Revolution faced at home and abroad. And he wanted a secret police force which would deal with those. And it's important, I think, and something not always understood outside of people who've lived under its heel, that actually the KGB and what comes out of that period is different because of its origins from Western spy services. It is rooted in the fear and the desire to protect tech to revolution and the sense of Enemies being everywhere in a certain sense of paranoia, although some of it might even be justified. That was in that revolutionary period where you had white armies, you had MI6 plotting the overthrow of the Bolsheviks. And Lenin creates what's called the Cheka under Felix Dzerzhinsky, who is the first head of the Cheka. And he's not there for very long. But what's so interesting is this Cheka, which is a committee to counter anti revolutionary and sabotage activities, creates an ideology as well as an institution. And it's very interesting that the names will change, the checker will turn into the gpu, the ogpu, the nkbd, then the mgb, then the. And even today you have the SVR and fsb, all these acronyms. But the thing I think to hold onto is that all through that history, from then to now, the people involved in that world call themselves Chekists. It's very interesting and I think that is relevant and important to the story. So there is a kind of ideology which is born at that moment of the revolution, which is you do whatever it takes to protect the revolution, the motherland. And that might mean being ruthless, but it's for this higher moral purpose of protecting. And it might mean having blood on your hands. And there was enormous blood on their hands in those early revolutionary days. And I think that sense of threat, paranoia, ruthlessness, going after enemies is a continuous thread which I'm sure we'll come to, which lasts through to today, which explains, I think, much of what it does now. It's created the Cheka after the revolution. Vasily Mitrokin, this archivist, is born in that post revolutionary period in rural Russia, in a small village. And he will end up, you know, it's an odd story, but ending up, ends up getting recruited into the KGB at the end of the Second World War, having served in Ukraine as a prosecutor, where all he would say through to the end of his life was he saw horrors, and he saw terrible horrors he never wanted to talk about as the Stalinist secret police reimposed control on Ukraine after the Nazis had occupied parts of it. And yet he joins it, despite having seen these horrors, the kgb, because he's a true believer. And I think that's what in a way makes his journey and his witness as to what the KGB is so powerful is because he's not an outsider, he's someone who starts as a true believer in this ideology and perhaps for the other reasons people join secret services. A bit of the foreign travel, the excitement, the sense of having some kind of secret power. But for all those reasons, he initially relishes being part of this institution and wants to be part of this institution. And he's in the elite part of the institution because the KGB has domestic arms which do domestic control, and it has a foreign intelligence arm. And he's in the foreign intelligence arm. The problem for him is he's not a very good spy. Yeah.

[Sean Walker]

And I mean, so that's kind of, I guess often when you look at the different defectors or people who end up going over to the other side, I mean, either they're convinced that they're better than everyone or they're not very good and they sort of harbor this resentment. So he ends up basically failing in this career as being the Soviet James Bond and going to kind of cocktail receptions and recruiting capitalists to the cause. And he ends up being shunted away into the archive, which is not a very prestigious place in the kgb.

[Gordon Carrera]

Right. So he does a couple of foreign postings, one in one in the Middle east, in Israel. Then he does a strange short term posting of all things to Melbourne in Australia, accompanying the Soviet team for the Olympics in 1956. And it's interesting, we've got the World cup coming up, might come back to that. But one of the things that spy services actually do think about these sporting events because they do often send teams of spies along with the sports team teams, partly to keep an eye on their own athletes, that they don't defect, and also to stop other sides playing fun and games. And so he was escorting the Soviet team in 56, and it all goes disastrously wrong. Overall things a water polo match with the Hungarian team which turns violent because the Budapest uprising has just happened in 1956. And so there's kind of fierce antagonism between the two sides and Mutrokin kind of fails to control it. And so on his return, he's deemed no longer suitable for operational work. And what that means is they think to themselves, what do we do with this guy? You know, he's not, he's not really, you know, he's not a James Bond. He's not even a kind of capable spy. He's a bit introverted. He likes files into the archives. And I don't mean to be rude to any archivist because I think being an archivist is a noble profession and I think we both rely on archivists for research. But in his case it was a kind of punishment, a banishment. But also I think what ends up being the worst personnel or HR decision in history because they send someone into the archives with a grievance. And then what's so interesting is what he sees in the archives, because what he will see. So he's there with a grievance, but then what he sees in the archive will change him over time because he will see the variance, the difference between what the KGB presents itself to the world and to its own people is doing and the truth, because suddenly he has access to the files and he can see the truth of what the KGB is. And this is the key aspect of his journey is he can also watch what's happening in the outside world and say, well, you know, you've got all these events like the Prague Spring will happen in 1968, where there's this moment where people hope for democratic or at least a more open liberal form of communism and socialism. And he can see that the KGB's reaction is to send deep cover spies into the illegals, as you know, into the, into Czechoslovakia, to not just spy on, but undermine those hopes for a flourishing. The kgb, sir, he realizes, is a tool for repression rather than, if you like, an intelligence service saving the people. And I think this journey of what he comes to understand the KGB doing is the really interesting aspect of his work because he understands that it's a paranoid organization destroying some files, for instance, all the compromise on its own leaders spying on exiles abroad, thinking that maybe it might be a good idea to plot breaking Rudolf Nureyev, the ballet dancer's legs because he defected, which goes back to the slightest kind of paranoia and the odd mindset, all these things he suddenly is seeing in the files, the truth of what the KGB is compared to the way it presents itself, which is the heroic protectors of the Soviet people against enemies. And it's that difference which changes him over time.

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[Sean Walker]

And explain just how. Cause you know, it's fascinating how I think one of the ways that intelligence services try to minimize the problems that would occur from any potential defection is obviously compartmentalization, right? So you only see the files directly on the cases you're working on. And I Mean, even if you're an archivist, I think in an intelligence service, you don't just have a license to sort of pull all the files off the shelf and read everything. So how was it? There's this remarkable sort of administrative coincidence that basically leads to him being probably the only person in the history of the KGB who's able to read all the KGB files.

[Gordon Carrera]

Yeah. And that's what's amazing about him. And it's this. I did also find it interesting, the sense in which there's a journey for him and it's not a quick journey because, you know, he got banished in 56. By 1968 and the Prague Spring, he's, in his head, decided that the organization he works for is an enemy. And it's worth saying he doesn't. He's quite an unusual person. I don't think a normal person would do what he did and take the risks he did. But he came to see it with a kind of spiritual fervor. And I think this is kind of one of the interesting aspects of it, which took me a while to understand it, which is, I think, quite Russian as well, is that he saw himself, he saw his enemy as a monster, really. As a monster, as a beast, as a dragon with three heads, one of which was the KGB or the Cheka, one the Communist Party and one the nomenclature, who were the elite. And he saw this beast as feeding on his country, kind of like as a stealing the soul of its country. And he sees himself as like a hero in a Russian folk story, a peasant hero who's going to battle this monster. I mean, it's odd.

[Sean Walker]

What you're saying is he has a massive ego. He has a massive ego in some way.

[Gordon Carrera]

And it's all going on in his head, which I think is also quite interesting. He doesn't talk about this to anyone, including his wife, Nina. All going on in his head. But then he still got this idea. But then the question is, what does he do about it? And the answer is in 1972. So already you're 16 years after the first being sent to the archives. He gets an opportunity because they're moving house, the KGB's first chief director, at the bit that spies abroad is moving from the Lubyanka, the famous building in the center of Moscow, out to the forest, the woods by the ring road on the outskirts. If you move, you move your files. And if you move your files, the archivist's job is to go through all. All the files and say, this one stays, this one moves. This one's sensitive, this one's not. This one could be weeded or destroyed. That's what an archivist does. So suddenly, every file in the kgb, pretty much one or two small exceptions, is going to pass through his hands to be moved. And he suddenly realizes, here is an opportunity. Here is a way of fighting this beast that I want to fight. And so he will sit in his office, a file will come in. He's by himself, he'll write in tiny shorthand, kind of hieroglyphics, almost the important bits of the file, and then he'll stick the piece of paper into his shoe and walk out. And he, of course, understands security well enough. I gave a talk at the National Archives once about this story, and I said, this is not advice for how to steal files from the National Archives, because I felt I should warn in case people were getting ideas. But actually, one of the interesting points is he's not stealing the file. He's copying the file, and he takes it home. And in his stature, he'll then take the kind of tiny note. And someone who knew him described it to me as like taking a stock cube, concentrated form of a soup, and then poiling ball, wheeling water back on and re. Reconstituting it into its original form. And that's what he'd do in his dachsha at the weekend and suddenly start copying the deepest secrets of the kgb. And so there he is, this person, learning every secret of the kgb, copying every secret of the kgb, hating the kgb, wanting to destroy it, and building up a copy of its secret archive, which he buries under the floorboards of his stature in milk churns. I mean, without a plan. Without a plan of what to do with it. I mean, it's kind of wild in a way. It's not normal behavior. I think that's the thing to say.

[Sean Walker]

Yeah. I mean, it's extraordinary because he retires from the KGB in, I think, 84, right? And then he's already, for a decade, he's been creating this personal archive, cataloguing it in his dacha, typing it up and hiding it, and then nothing happens for eight years. I mean, did you get a sense of what, you know, if the Soviet Union hadn't have collapsed, he would have died, and that somewhere in a dacha village there would be.

[Gordon Carrera]

Well, that's a fascinating question that he. And it is also back to a kind of Soviet tradition which dissidents would talk about. About. And it's worth saying that he, I think, was quite influenced by the dissident movement in the Soviet Union, which actually kind of reached its peak just after the Prague Spring. 68, 72, when he's starting to do this. And you had some very brave people who would try and chronicle the abuses of the KGB and the state against its own citizens, and the way they were arresting people and the way they were sending people to psychiatric hospitals who were dissidents, claiming they were mad and sending them there for treatment. There was this kind of activity going on, and people were trying to document it. Famously something called the Chronicle of Current Events, which was written by some brave people. And he saw himself as a kind of secret chronicler of the KGB and its abuses, and was influenced as well by some of the other dissidents who. The phrase would be that you write for the draw. And this was one that Bulgarkov has used and Solzhenitsyn had used, which was, you write because you believe the truth needs to be preserved, even if you don't know when it will be possible to publish it because it's too dangerous, but you write it out of a compulsion to preserve the truth that you're seeing for the future. And that, I think, was what he was trying to do about the KGB and about its activities, particularly this aspect of domestic repression or going after dissidents abroad, which, going back to what I said at the start, was what made it different, and which I think wasn't always understood, was how much of its energy, including the foreign part of the kgb, was devoted to domestic control by, for instance, getting rid of dissidents abroad, spying on dissidents abroad, dealing with exiles, and dealing with threats at home which might spread subversion. So that's his kind of desire, even though he doesn't know what to do with it. And so he retires, he gets a lovely letter from the head of the kgb, as people who retire do, saying, thank you very much, here's your pension. You've done sterling service. The head of the kgb, not realizing the sterling services included copying all of their secrets and hiding them under the floorboards. And he goes into his retirement, and what does he do? He still sits there and still works up at his notes. And at this point, you're into the 80s. The Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan. The KGB again, is very involved with military operations and kind of Special Forces operations in Afghanistan. And he's documenting, collecting that information, preserving it. He hopes for something. But I find it so interesting because he just doesn't have a plan. He comes up with some wild ideas, but by the 80s, he's amassed so many files. I'm looking for a comparison, but, you know, it would, you know, you're not talking about a box of files or even a suitcase of files. You're talking about, you know, probably fill half this stage, you know, of files at his dacha, you know, in his dacha, you know, which his wife and his son don't really know about. I mean, I always think this is also a bit weird. He just, you know, he's the kind of person who goes, I'm just going to the shed, darling, I'll see you later. And then he's there doing the vase. And they don't have any clue what he's doing in his shed. I mean, I think, you know, but he's there toiling away, and he just keeps toiling away. And he has some wild plans, which are quite wild. Again, there's a slightly wild element to him, slightly unrealistic. He's quite an introverted, obsessive character about how he might get it out. But they don't really come to anything because you can't walk out with it. It's too much. And then something happens which I think no one expected, which is the Soviet Union collapses. August 1991. The KGB has been watching Gorbachev reform. It fears that is breaking up the Soviet Union. And so they launch the hardliners, launch a coup from the KGB particularly, and that coup fails after a few days. And that actually hastens the collapse and the demise of the Soviet Union into its constituent parts. Famously, I mean, and this is worth referencing, the most powerful symbolic moment of that coup is outside the Labianca when protesters pull down the statue of Felix Dzerzhinsky. Very famous, isn't it? You know, for. You see a crane come down and they pull and topple the statue of Dzerzhinski. Because that for them, because it sits outside the Labianka. Outside, outside the kgb. That for them is the moment we've pulled down the author of the creator of this police state. But it opens up this opportunity for Mitrokin to think, well, now maybe I can get my files out.

[Sean Walker]

So he thinks this is finally my chance to get this to the Americans. The main enemy, that's his dream, to take it to the Americans. So he has the window and what happens?

[Gordon Carrera]

So he walks into the Americans and they turn him away. Not once, not twice, but seems to be at least three times. And I spent quite a lot of time talking to Americans about exactly how many times and how that happened. And it's fair to say They're a little bit. Recollections may differ over how this happened and who is to blame. But it is interesting because, you know, the CIA and KGB had been in the, in this tussle, you know, this kind of shadowy war over intelligence through the Cold War. But at that moment, the CIA is facing two things. One is the fact that they're getting so many defectors, tons of defectors. I mean, people are walking into American embassies which are opening up and literally saying, I'm from the kgb. I've got a load of secrets. Give me a million dollars in the house of, in Florida, you know, and some were really specific. They were like, I want an open top convertible car, you know, and a house which has to be on the coast in Florida. And, you know, there was a joke going around the CIA, which was like another drunk KGB colonel, you know, because they were just turning up. And so he's got a problem because he's this old guy, you know, who's, you know, says he's got a load of secrets and kind of thinking what it is. And the other problem is that actually it's very interesting. The Americans are thinking maybe we're going to make nice with the Russians. Maybe we'll do liaison, as the intelligence services call it, with the Russians. In other words, we'll talk to them, we'll work with them, they're our friends. So on that basis, you don't necessarily want to be taking in too many defectors unless they're really good and they turn him away. And I think he's stunned because he thinks, I've got the keys to the kingdom, I've got every secret nearly that the KGB has and that the CIA would have wanted, and yet they turn him away.

[Sean Walker]

But it's also worth saying, I guess that he doesn't have a single original KGB file. So he's not going in, which you would normally do, right, and say, this is what I've got. He's a scruffy looking guy with his sausage hiding the documents in the suitcase.

[Gordon Carrera]

By this point he's 70 years old. He's dressed down because he doesn't want to draw attention to himself. He goes around wheeling a kind of, of grubby shopping cart with some sausages and bread on top and underneath a couple of files which at the end of the day are just typed up, files that he's typed up. So give some sympathy to the Americans for missing him. But as often happens, an American mistake is a British opportunity in this story because he then thinks I'll try the brick. And, you know, there's actually an interesting history in the intelligence game about the Brits picking up things that the Americans missed and being a bit more nimble. So he walks into the British Embassy in Vilnius and he's incredibly fortunate because there's a young woman there who's still in her 20s, who's not a spy, not an MI6 officer, but is a diplomat who served in Moscow and speaks Russian and just thinks something interesting about this guy. I'm going to talk. I can talk to him. And she does that most British thing. She says, would you like a cup of tea? And I just. I just love this fact that, you know, she offers him a cup of tea and he pulls out of this grubby shopping bag some of the deepest secrets of the kgb. I mean, what an unequal exchange. But a good deal.

[Sean Walker]

It's a good deal with the sausage thrown in as well.

[Gordon Carrera]

I don't think she took the sausage. And, yeah, that's how he ends up saying, I've got this stuff. And of course, for a while, no one is sure.

[Sean Walker]

And I mean, yeah, that to me, was also one of the most fascinating parts of the book because there's plenty of authors who've written about the KGB, there's plenty of authors who've written about the CIA, but you managed to get the story of the MI6 mission to kind of get Matroko. And I mean, without going into all of the detail, but I mean, what's happening in MI6 at this time? Because there's also. There's also a moment of change, right? The Cold War is just over. I mean, this. This embassy in Vilnius is brand new and has just opened up. Are they not also looking in the same way the Americans are? To a sort of rosy future?

[Gordon Carrera]

There's a little bit of that and I think it's interesting on both the American and British side, there might be some people in the audience who know about this. He says, not looking at anyone in particular, but there was. But there were always some who said, oh, no, those Russians, we need to watch out for them. The Cold War was not quite over, but they were definitely the minority. But it seemed interesting enough to send out a small team of MI6 officers to meet him. Very interesting. Unusual pair of officers, one of whom was actually a kind of Russian exile, effectively, but it meant he spoke Russian, actually had a feel for the KGB and how it acted. And the details are in the book. We won't go into all the details of the story, but what's interesting is they first of all work out. He's quite difficult to deal with. Secondly, the secrets are for real. But thirdly, he wants something unusual because he wants two things. He will give his archive over in return for two things. One is he wants himself and his family to be exfiltrated, to be taken out of Russia and he wants the archive to be published. Not something that most spies, you know, classic spies are thinking about. Most of them are thinking, I want that house in Florida in the convertible. You know, you can do what you want with the secrets I'm going to give you. And you might not want even the publicity or you might not want, but this is what he wants because he has seen it as a weapon which he wants to use to destroy this idea, this mythology, this creature that's the kgb. And so eventually they will agree to that. And then in a kind of wild operation, pretty wild, which nearly goes wrong or at least hit some strange bumps, they'll get him, his wife, his son who is in a wheelchair, and his mother in law because his wife won't go without her mother. It's very good of the family. They're really quite interesting family unit. But the bizarre bit of the operation is that they come up with a cover story which is that they're taking the son away for medical treatment out of the country. But it's actually a cover story not just for any border guards they meet, but actually for the son and the mother in law. So as they're approaching being taken out of the country, they do not realize what's going on or that Mitrokin has done this. His wife knows. I mean the family dynamics are a lot for therapy. Complicated, but yeah, yeah. Anyway, back to the kgb, I think.

[Mia Sorrenti (Producer, Intelligence Squared)]

Thanks for listening to Intelligence Squared. This episode was produced by me, Mia Sorrenti and it was edited by Mark Roberts. For ad free episodes and full length recordings you can become a [e-mail] membership and to join us at future live events you can head to intelligencesquared.com attend to see our full event program. You've been listening to Intelligence Squared. Thanks for joining us.

[Gordon Carrera]

Foreign.

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