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Intelligence Squared
The Courage to Lead, with Sanna Marin, Former Prime Minister of Finland (Part One)
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- [00:04]
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- [03:00]
Mia Sorrenti
Welcome to Intelligence Squared, where great minds meet. I'm producer Mia Sorrenti. Today's episode is part one of our recent live event with former Prime Minister of Finland, Sarah Sana Marin. Marin joined us at the Emmanuel center to discuss what it takes to have the courage to lead and her new memoir, Hope in Action. Sana Marin became the youngest leader in the world when she took office in 2019 at the age of 34. As Prime Minister, she guided Finland through the COVID 19 pandemic, responded to Russia's full scale invasion of Ukraine and led the country into NATO in record time. Let's join our host broadcaster Kavita Puri now with more.
- [03:43]
Kavita Puri
Hello, good evening. It's lovely for you to join us here on a Monday evening. I am thrilled to be here tonight with Sana Marin, the former Prime Minister of Finland. Maureen is a trailblazer in modern politics. She became prime minister and made history. She was 34, the youngest ever, ever leader of her country and the youngest world leader at the time. And her time in office coincided with two major global events, Covid and the war in Ukraine. But among her many achievements in office, she spearheaded Finland joining NATO in 2022. And we'll be talking about all of this and her book, Hope in Action. But there is one thing to say. Sanne, who has already started her book tour, has caught the obligatory comment cold and so she has partially lost her voice. So we are thrilled that she is still with us. But her husky voice is not her normal voice, so she asked that we bear with her.
- [04:49]
So please do give a warm welcome to Sana Marin.
- [05:03]
We're going to talk for 40 minutes, Sana, before we kind of get into the body of the interview. What was that moment like when you were 34 and you were told you were going to be prime minister? Because that wasn't part of your game plan.
- [05:15]
Sanna Marin
Was, wasn't. And thank you so much for having me here. As you can hear, my voice is a bit lower than normally. I also have low voice otherwise, but I lost my voice. We have been traveling a lot and I've been speaking maybe too much, but I'm still really, really extremely excited to be here with you today. So hopefully my voice will carry this evening through. What was it like to wake up then that next morning when I was elected as a prime minister and that evening when we had our party election, they elected me to be the candidate for prime minister. I told my friends, my close ones from my party that was with me when that happened and I said to them, do I really have to do this now? Because that was also a moment of a shock to Me. And actually the same year, in January, I was elected as a Prime Minister. December 2019. But at that spring, January, February, we were heading to the election campaign, and I was the first vice chair of our party, and our party leader, Anterine, got severely ill. He was rushed into medical care, into intensive care, and nobody knew within our party, will he survive or not? Will he survive in general, or will he come back to run the campaign and be our prime minister candidate? So. So I had to take the lead then in early 2019. And I remember I was horrified. As first vice chair, we were heading to election just a couple of months ahead, and then our prime minister candidate was ill. Nobody knew who would be there, Would he be there? Would I have to step in? And of course, I had to run our election campaign. But throughout those months, I thought to myself every single day, I please, Auntie, recover, come back. I don't want to be the Prime Minister. And then when we won the election and I became the Minister for transport and Communications and he had to resign from the Prime Minister position, half year later, I thought to myself, again, do I really have to do this now? So, no, it wasn't my game plan. But when you hit those moments when you have to act, when you have to take the lead, when you kind of just think that I don't want to do this, maybe personally or maybe it's not the right time, then those are also the moments where you have to jump and thought and think to yourself that if somebody else can do this, maybe I can too.
- [08:00]
Kavita Puri
I mean, when you became prime minister, it was remarkable. You were 34, as we said, but not only that, but you were leading a party where some of the other really prominent women. It's correct that there was four out of five women leading those parties were all women. And so actually five, five.
- [08:21]
Sanna Marin
We were all women in charge of our parties, and four of us were under 40 years old. And actually three of these party leaders, ministers, had children while in office. So that tells something about Finland.
- [08:37]
Kavita Puri
It does tell you something about Finland. And it really felt like progress. Having said that, the reaction to the women, like, you know, some of the press reports called you a lipstick government, and the ensuing kind of really sexist comments that you received didn't suggest progress. Did you imagine that when you were told that you were prime minister, that you would get that kind of backlash?
- [09:06]
Sanna Marin
Well, I think at the beginning, of course, because we were handling big crises like Covid, the whole nation was quite unified. But of course, there was since the beginning, there were a Lot of discussions online on social media platforms, quite a lot of of course hate speech, very also misogynist content that we received, saying that we were a girl government or lipsticks government, or that I should go back to a grocery store, work as a cashier, a job that I did when I was studying when I was 20.
- [09:44]
All these comments were just suggesting that we weren't capable enough because we were women. So women go back home. And that was also surprising because Finland is of course known for gender equality. We were the first country in the world that gave full political rights to women. Not only the right to vote, but also the right to run for office. And first 19 members of parliament that were women were elected in Finland and started their work in Finland. So we have worked with this kind of idea that gender equality is something that we should seek and pursue. And we have also built our social healthcare system and our welfare systems, the Nordic welfare model, based on this idea of seeking equality. So of course it was also surprising that in Finland, in a Nordic country also the misogyny, the sexism and the hate speech came with that force. And the amount of different kind of like violent, sexualized content that I had to read about about myself or receive through email or from different platforms, it is so vast that I just dropped count ages ago. And I think that tells something, that we were never there, not in Finland, but not anywhere. The world is still very dominated by the idea. Unfortunately not everybody thinks like that. But also there are people that think like that, that women are not worthy, that they are not as capable, they're not as talented and they shouldn't lead. And I think that is really sad.
- [11:29]
Kavita Puri
I want to take you back to your very early political influences. And in your book you talk about your earliest political kind of moment was when you were eight and you were really shocked that your forest was going to be destroyed. Just take us back to you and being an 8 year old child and tell us about that moment, but also the kind of family that you grew up in.
- [11:55]
Sanna Marin
Well, at that time I didn't understand that that might have been my first like political thing that I ever did. But we had a very unique, nice school just next to where I lived and next to that school we had this big, big forest. And part of that forest was privately owned and the owner wanted to cut the timber and sell the wood.
- [12:21]
Forest industry. And of course me, the children at the school, but also the teachers and actually the whole community was shocked that we were losing that amazing, beautiful old forest. So we didn't know what to do. And there was a big debate in our municipality as well. But of course this person had the right to sell the timber. It was his forest. But us girls, I think we were maybe five to seven girls or something, we thought what to do? How can we make sure that this won't happen? What can we as children do? And then we just thought that we will go to the road next to the school and the forest and then we will sing our national anthem, held Finnish flag high. And of course there were nobody seeing this, so it was just us, like nine year old girls singing the national anthem, nobody else watching. But we thought that we did something. But what was actually beautiful wasn't the defeat that we got because the forest was cut, but the school organized planting trees instead. So when the forest was cut, the whole school participated and we planted new trees. And I think that was also something that was really memorable because then I learned that you will find defeat, but then you can also make something good out of that and you can always also fix things. And we did. So I think that was my first political.
- [14:00]
Moment in life. But I didn't of course understand it at the time.
- [14:04]
Kavita Puri
It was a little victory as well.
- [14:07]
Sanna Marin
Not a victory, but a path forward.
- [14:10]
Kavita Puri
Yeah. You've described your background as. Is it right to say, I think you say in the book, not lower than working class. Is that how you, how you describe it?
- [14:21]
Sanna Marin
I come from a really poor family. My mother was raised in an orphanage and we didn't have anything. She worked as a low paid job since she was 15, so we didn't have wealth, money, that kind of background, where politicians come from. And also my mother found out after she had me and she left my father because my father was severe alcoholic. And few years later she realized that.
- [14:55]
She fell in love with the woman. So I was also raised in a rainbow family. So really poor background that we had. And also raised in a family that wasn't recognized at that time in the 90s as a normal, proper family. We still had the legislation that discriminated people because of their sexual orientation or their gender.
- [15:21]
Gender orientation. So of course that was also something that left a mark in me, but also paved the path for my political awakening because I wanted to work on these issues, for human rights, on social welfare, making sure that everybody has same opportunities in life. And even though my background was really difficult, still I was so fortunate to be born in Finland because we had amazing daycare system, amazing schooling system. I was able to attend to university to have that kind of high quality education. Because of the Nordic welfare model. So when I had my political awakening about 20, I wanted to work with these human rights, gender equality, rights for minorities, and also making sure that we will have that kind of strong Social Security, welfare and service system that the Nordic welfare model is, and also making sure that we will enhance it, not only have it as it is, but enhance it and reform it. So, of course, it did leave a big mark, the way I think and way I see world as the world. And I'm still really grateful because I was born in an amazing country and also had really, really loving family, even though our life wasn't maybe as privileged as somebody else's.
- [16:48]
Kavita Puri
I mean, you say your life was a privilege, but to be born in Finland was a privilege. And I suppose the fact that you could rise to the top of your country at the age of 34 is really testament to that. But when you went to parliament for the first time, did you feel like you belonged there or did you feel like an outsider?
- [17:11]
Sanna Marin
Well, I was always very ideological. I wanted to change the world and save the world, and that's why I joined my party. And of course, I was working politics also before I got elected to parliament on local level as a leader of our city council and city councillor, and within our party as well, I was the second vice chair, I think, when I was elected to parliament. So I had worked in different positions within our party and in politics. So it wasn't totally new to me, but it also was. That was also a bit of shock because then I really noticed what is the political game and what kind of work is it? The work within a political group, a parliamentary group, and even though at that time, and you can read it in the book, but even though it also felt sometimes overwhelming and hard, and the political game that you feel in the parliament, that also taught me many things. And I'm so grateful that I did learn those lessons early, because I needed those lessons when I became the prime minister and had to negotiate constantly with four other parties on many things. Not only Covid all the consequences of the war in Ukraine or NATO accession, et cetera, but we had one of the most reformistic governmental programs, and we fulfilled 98% of that. And that meant a lot of negotiations between five parties. So I learned a lot from our parliamentary group also, maybe if you could say, like the political dirty game. But I'm really glad that I learned those lessons early.
- [18:59]
Kavita Puri
So you were a minister. Minister for transportation and communication for six months when the position of prime minister came up. And actually in that role as minister. You met President Trump, didn't you, at the White House?
- [19:11]
Sanna Marin
I did, and we discussed about icebreakers and also communication networks.
- [19:16]
Kavita Puri
Yeah, I'm sure he loved meeting you.
- [19:22]
Sanna Marin
It was actually the meeting went much better than I anticipated and we had good discussions.
- [19:29]
Mia Sorrenti
Were you worried?
- [19:29]
Kavita Puri
Were you worried about meeting him?
- [19:31]
Sanna Marin
I was a bit worried. I was worried because he's also known to be a person that you cannot always tell how he might act in different situations, as I was, of course, only a minister and I was there accompanying our president, Sauli Niinishta, and they had the meeting and I was there as a minister of transport and communications because the specific discussions were to do with icebreakers, because US don't have enough icebreakers and they need them badly. Russia and China have fleets of icebreakers and US cannot operate in Arctic seas and northern seas if they don't have the same capacity. So I was there as a minister, as an expert to tell about these things. But the meeting went actually really well and I'm really happy that even though it did take a long time, actually, justice, this year, not that long ago, us and Finland were able to agree on a big, big purchase of Finnish icebreakers because we make the world's best. And I'm not only bragging, this is true.
- [20:46]
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- [23:15]
Kavita Puri
And then you became Prime Minister and within three months you had to deal with COVID When did you realize this is going to be a really serious problem?
- [23:26]
Sanna Marin
Well, of course at the beginning I think many politicians and of course experts, also citizens. You remember the time, it was after Christmas, beginning of the New year, when we had the first news from China that some kind of new virus was spreading. And of course we monitored that situation quite closely also within our government and our experts were monitoring the situation, how it will evolve. But then when it hit with full force, because there was a lot of traveling, especially first in Italy, then in Austria, different kind of places where people were, for example, skiing, having their ski holidays. And we understood.
- [24:14]
How fast this virus will spread because of those travelers and also how it acts the way that you don't see it straight away, so you will carry it somewhere and then you will infect other people before you have any symptoms. And I remember when we understood how big of a problem this is going to be and what we need to do. And Finland was fortunate also in this way because we are far up the north and we are quite isolated compared to many other countries. So it hit rest of Europe first and Finland later. So we were actually able to close the down our society quite fully before it came with full force. So we were able to maintain low levels of infections. But it also meant that we had to use the Emergency Powers act for the first time since the wars in Finland. So we did have to make very drastic decisions and we just shut down everything. And I think it was the right thing to do to put people's lives and well being, their health in the center of our decisions because that also protected our economy. So we did lock down our society quite drastically at the beginning, very fast. And then we were also able to open our society earlier than in many other places because we didn't have that high numbers infections and your infection rates.
- [25:50]
Kavita Puri
Were really low and your approval rating was astonishing. It was something like 85%. But it must have been a really stressful time for you. And you talk in the book about the kind of the physical manifestations of that stress. How did you cope? But also what did you learn about yourself as a leader?
- [26:11]
Sanna Marin
Well, it was a hard time. And also because we didn't have the legislation that we needed and also because we have that Nordic Wolverine model that I've been talking so highly of.
- [26:24]
That also means that we have that kind of basic trust within our society that you cannot find in a short term. You need to build it over decades and decades and decades. So we have that very deep trust within our society. So when the government set stands, stay isolated, don't meet people, stay within your own family. Everybody listened. And we didn't have that kind of legislation on place where we could just force people to go remote work, for example. But actually the employee and employer organization, they volunteered and they participate and businesses and companies participated because we share this idea that we are all in it together. And everybody wanted to protect each other and especially the most vulnerable elderly people and people that have some kind of basic sickness, that they were more.
- [27:23]
That they were more at risk when it comes to Covid. So everybody wanted to participate. So we didn't have the legislation on place, but we asked and people followed. And then what it meant for the government, it meant that we had to push like 150 pieces of legislation through the parliament within a month and a half. So it meant that we were working nonstop within the government and every single day felt like one week and every week felt like one month. Because the amount of work and the amount of legislation that we had to push through was so enormous that we didn't do anything else but work. And it also showed later not as a mental stress. I think I was quite focused from the get go. I don't get that kind of nervous in a really hard situation. I just see that there is a task that we have to do and now we will do it. But of course I also was stressed. So I got physical symptoms. Not my voice, but otherwise so ticking. My eye or my stomach was constantly upset. I started to lose weight and at some point later on I actually lost my vision for one day. And that was the most drastic thing that happened. That I couldn't. If we were sitting like this, I couldn't see her face or see any text or anything.
- [28:48]
Kavita Puri
So what did you do then? I mean, did you realize that's actually going to have to stop or I didn't? No, but not stop, but do something. No, I worked but do something differently.
- [28:58]
Sanna Marin
But I did rest for one day because of the vision. And then it luckily came back after a few days.
- [29:07]
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- [29:08]
Kavita Puri
The second massive crisis was the Russian invasion of Ukraine. And Finland is a population of five and a half million people. It's the size of Montana, but it also shares, am I right in saying the longest border with Russia? And so it had pretty serious implications for Finland as well. When did you realize, of course, the invasion of Ukraine was a huge thing. When did you realize that actually this could have implications for Finland as well?
- [29:44]
Sanna Marin
Well, I remember very well the morning that we woke up to the war in Europe. Of course it was horrible. Every single leader in Europe wished for the very second of the hand before the war started that that would only be negotiation tactic that Putin is using because there was a lot of things happening half a year before the war started, Putin started and Russia started, started lowering energy deliveries to European countries, trying to later leverage this that we wouldn't show support to Ukraine. And the situation between Ukraine and Russia was tightening constantly. And Putin was saying in December before the war that there shouldn't be any new countries joining NATO and these kind of statements. So of course the situation was getting more and more severe within the half a month before. And the war in Ukraine started already 2014 with the annexation of Crimea and there have been the Normandy group and different kind of formats trying to find a solution for that. And then we had the intel from US and UK actually saying that it is very probable and it will happen that Russia will invade Ukraine. But every wished until the last second that that would be a bluff, that that would be a negotiation tactic, which it wasn't. And I remember waking that morning to the situation where there's active war in Europe and Ukraine has been attacked. And I realized straight away that that will also mean something for Finland, because we share that long border, longest of all EU and NATO countries, over 1300 kilometers with Russia. And we have had our wars with the Soviet Union, with Russia. And we have lost land and we have lost so many lives and we have to rehabilitate so many people because of that. So we also have that collective memory how it is. And it also meant for us seeking more security within NATO. And I think the mentality of the whole nation shift overnight.
- [31:57]
Kavita Puri
And how quickly did you realize that you wanted to start entry to NATO membership personally?
- [32:05]
Sanna Marin
Straight away, really. And I had become also a Supporter of the idea of Finland joining NATO before this situation. But I thought it will take five to 10 years because before the war majority, vast majority of the parties and also vast majority of the Finnish citizens were against NATO membership because we had been maintaining our security, our independence by having functional relations with Russia. Because we had that collective memory of the wars. And we also had that very difficult period of time where we were independent and soaring, but only in some amount because there was always the aggressive neighbor that was watching what was happening, especially in security and foreign policy. So there was a long period of time where we had that shadow hovering over us. And that was the reason why we didn't join NATO and why we first seeked the membership within European Union. But when the war started in, in Ukraine, the full scale invasion, I think Finnish people in general shifted their way of thinking straight away. Because then we realized that it's not enough anymore to stay military non aligned, to have functional relationship. Because Russia is not only in the history books but today a country an aggressive neighbor that we had that long border that will attack its neighboring countries. And it meant for us applying for NATO membership and having that process discussions within Finland, with all the institutions, with our president, the government, parliament, but also different parties that majority of had been against NATO membership with short period of time and also in a way that was at the same time inclusive and also not very vocal to outside because of the situation in Europe and in Ukraine. But we did accomplish that and together with Sweden because they were also deciding at the same time it would have been extremely problematic with one Nordic country staying military non aligned when all the other Nordic countries would join. So we did have this process also hand in hand together with Sweden and we discussed with our colleague in Sweden almost daily and it was the fastest.
- [34:38]
Kavita Puri
Accession ever in NATO's 74 year history. Were there threats from Russia because you wanted to join NATO?
- [34:47]
Sanna Marin
Well, there were some things happening. Like we can see that there's also many things happening nowadays. There are cables that, that are being caught and there are drone, some kind of like some drone attacked. What are the statement that Russia is saying that they don't know what these drones are? Come on. So there are a lot of things happening. And there were of course the risk that there might be many things happening also throughout that process. And I always thought that there are like two scenarios and our experts thought that there are two scenarios. Russia might have an aggressive input on that. Or then they might just say like why you are joining? Why do you have this process? We are not threat to you. And they actually chose this one. They said Finland has no and Sweden has no reason to join. We are not threat. There's nothing going on. So this is nonsense. So that was more of the reaction that Russia sent then. But of course we knew then and we know now that Russia is not a country and Putin is not a leader that we can trust. And that way we had to seek membership within the alliance to make sure that we are never again alone if the worst things happen.
- [36:10]
Mia Sorrenti
Thanks for listening to Intelligence Square. This episode was produced by Ginny Hooker and it was edited by Mark Roberts. For ad free episodes and full length recordings, you can become a member@intelligencesquared.com membership and to join us at future events, head to intelligencesquared.com forward/attend to see our full program. You've been listening to Intelligence Squared. Thanks for joining us.
- [36:49]
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- [38:00]
Sanna Marin
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