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The Courage to Lead, with Sanna Marin, Former Prime Minister of Finland (Part Two)
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- [00:01]
Sanna Marin
I'm Alex Honnl, professional rock climber and founder of the Honl Foundation. I wanted to let you know about a brand new season of the Planet Visionaries podcast in partnership with the Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative.
- [00:11]
Podcast Advertiser/Host
This is the podcast exploring bold ideas.
- [00:13]
Sanna Marin
And big solutions from the people leading the way in conservation.
- [00:16]
Podcast Advertiser/Host
Join me in conversation with the likes of climate champion Mark Ruffalo, biologist and photographer Christina Mittermeier, and one of the most successful conservationists of our time, Chris Tompkins.
- [00:26]
Sanna Marin
Join us on Planet Visionaries.
- [00:27]
Podcast Advertiser/Host
Wherever you get your podcasts.
- [00:35]
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- [03:02]
Kavita Puri
Welcome to Intelligence Squared, where great minds meet. I'M producer Mia Sorrenti. For this episode. We're rejoining for part two of our live event with former Prime Minister of Finland, Sanna Marin. Marin joined us recently at the Emmanuel center to discuss what it takes to have the courage to lead and her new memoir, Hope in Action. She was in conversation with broadcaster Kavita Puri. If you haven't heard part one, do just jump back an episode and get up to speed. Let's rejoin the conversation now live at the Emmanuel Center. So you dealt with the COVID crisis. You dealt very skillfully with NATO membership. But you also talk in the book about some and a number of scandals, and you give them names like the blazer scandal and the breakfast scandal and the phone scandal. But I think that the scandal that probably people may have heard about in the room is the dancing scandal.
- [04:03]
Where.
- [04:04]
You have the temerity to go to your mate's house and drink and dance and someone put pictures of you dancing on a private Insta account which somehow got leaked to the press. You talk about it in the book as it was a kind of like a moral panic that that then ensued. And the crime was that you were behaving in a way that people, politicians, people in Finland felt was not becoming of a leader. It was very clear that the rules were different for you and for male politicians.
- [04:45]
Sanna Marin
Well, I do have a whole chapter about my scandals that are not very political as the name can.
- [04:55]
As you can read from the name. So nothing to do with political corruption, misuse of public money or power, but more like this moralistic scandals, me wearing a blazer, showing too much skin on a photo shoot, and it didn't show actually anything except this part here. And then breakfast scandal, phone scandal, where I did bring only one work phone with me to a night out and not to worry about when we had dinner with our friends. And then the dancing scandal, me dancing in a private apartment, friend's apartment, and singing at the same time, having fun. So of course that was scandalous. But I think there is also, of course, more deeper story behind that. And I think that is that nobody ever asked a male politician questions like how can you be a leader when you have a small child at home? Or how can you be at work today and be a professional when yesterday you went to a bar or a pub to watch football game with your friends and you drank beer. How dare you. So of course there was also this kind of like moralistic and sexist view. And for some, of course, it was outrageous seeing a woman of that age, a prime Minister, a leader of a country, an image that wasn't maybe normal as such, of a young woman holding that position, but also acting like a young woman with her friends having a free time. So there was a big, big media storm and media frenzy over this.
- [06:37]
Kavita Puri
Were you angry?
- [06:39]
Sanna Marin
I wasn't angry. I was frustrated with the situation because it took so much time from the actual work, because that happened during my summer holiday. So it wasn't when I was working, I was having free time. And then it leaked a few weeks after I had returned to work from my holiday. And we have tons things to do. So I felt really frustrated that I had to focus on this private thing when I wanted to work and focus on the matters at hand. And it took a lot of time from me and also from my advisors that had to handle this situation. Situation. And there was also very serious allegations combined that evening saying that we must have been using drugs because in the footage wasn't shown enough alcohol bottles, and they were having that fun. It cannot happen otherwise.
- [07:39]
Kavita Puri
There must have been drugs. But you had to do a drug.
- [07:41]
Sanna Marin
Test, and I had to do a drug test, not because somebody was asking, but actually because a leader of an opposition party said that she should do this to clear her name, because we otherwise cannot know what has happened. And that was serious. Not only an individual parliamentarian or somebody saying this, but a leader of a party. So of course I took it seriously. I had nothing to hide. So I did take that test, but of course I felt frustrated. It took my energy away from the work. And it was topped with this.
- [08:20]
I think, out of proportion and very false allegations. And that frustrated me. Yeah.
- [08:27]
Kavita Puri
And we should say the drug test was negative.
- [08:30]
Sanna Marin
Yeah, it was negative. Yeah. I wouldn't been prime minister after taking a positive one.
- [08:36]
Kavita Puri
But you gave a speech in response to all of this, and I watched the video of it, and you get really emotional, you break down, and I suppose the question is, you know, what kind of politicians do we want? Do we want humans or not? And I think the whole crisis actually raises pretty serious questions about how we treat our political caste, but particularly how we treat women, young women who want to be politicians. And there's a clip of you and Jacinda Arden where you're asked this crazy question about are you two meeting because you're the same age and you have a lot in common? And you say, no, we're meeting because we're prime ministers of our country? And I just think these kinds of questions just. Were you taken aback by them?
- [09:28]
Sanna Marin
Well, first of all, I Think many women can relate, not only politicians, but many women can relate to that. There are still double standards. And women are not viewed as whole persons, as people that have many sides. And it might be sometimes difficult for us to understand that women can be extremely tough, professional, good at their job, and that is true. And at the same time, they can be mothers, daughters, sisters, good friends. They can have free time and have fun, and they can be 100% of themselves. And they shouldn't be diminishing themselves because of these standards that nobody, nobody can meet. Nobody can be just one part of you. You are your whole person. You always have different parts of yourself. And I don't want to see a world where politicians have to isolate, to pretend that they're not people, to pretend that they are not individuals that also have free time and have friends and have fun. I don't want those kind of politicians to run our countries, because then they are so isolated from the reality where people live. And I think it was also so important that I had the support from the people. There was an international support supporting me, and a lot of people joined. And also in Finland, in that square, people came to me, very genuine and saying, what on earth is going on? This is so out of proportion. What is the press writing about this still? So there was a lot of support and I really appreciate that. And I could feel their warmth. And that meant the world to me. And we need to support women in different positions, not only politicians, but women in general, because women are still unfortunately facing the double standard in their lives, and that also prevents them to actively engage in politics. And this is really worrying. And it's not about only the scandals, it's the hatred that comes from online. It's the social media platforms that are filled with. With so horrible content that women have to face. And people, especially women and people from minority groups and different ethnic backgrounds that they are really worried nowadays. Can they join? Can they raise their voices, can they have an opinion, can they engage in politics? And many people are thinking about this. And we need to understand that this isn't a problem of individuals, this is a societal problem. If we have a younger generation, women, people from different backgrounds, thinking that they cannot participate within our democracies, then we have a huge problem within our democracies. So it's a societal problem, not a problem of individual and that how we should treat it. And that's where we need to find also the solutions to have enough, sturdy, enough legislation to treat this kind of violence as violence in general are treated. And also Put the big tech companies and social media platforms to make sure that this content cannot exist. So we need to demand actions from them as well. This is a matter of democracy, so I think we need to take it seriously.
- [12:56]
Kavita Puri
With that in mind, when you were writing the book, it's a very honest book. I mean, you talk a lot about your achievements and I do wonder if perhaps a male politician was writing this. They would just talk about their achievements. But you also talk about how you sometimes felt you weren't ready to take the next position, or you sometimes felt overwhelmed or intimidated. You talk about breastfeeding when you just became prime minister.
- [13:25]
Was that intentional? Were you trying to inject some realism into a job that is as lofty as the Prime Minister of a country?
- [13:36]
Sanna Marin
Well, I have worked in the top level of politics and I have of course worked with other prime ministers and presidents and leaders of countries and governments. And I can say that people are just people and that's also very comforting. And I also felt, for example, that kind of collegio atmosphere in European Council where we work together to notice that people are just people, whether they are politicians, whether they are business leaders, they are just individuals like everybody else. So I think it's also very good for everybody to understand that there's no extraordinary people out there that have the great plans for the future and for our world. So somewhere out there, and then you can also feel, maybe I can also personally do things because nobody is. Well, maybe some astrophysics are, or maybe some astronauts are extraordinary people, but many times people are just ordinary, normal. So we can have that room for everybody to join and engage.
- [14:49]
And after being a prime minister almost four years and understanding that I'm much more merciful to myself. And also those moments when I found that I felt that I wasn't ready or was I good enough? Can I do this? Asking my friends and colleagues then at the night when I was elected, do I really have to do this? Looking back now, I can say that those were the moments that were extremely important. Also to jump and to seek that. Because then you can learn the most. You learn when you are not ready. If you are ready and know everything already, then what? What can you learn? Nothing. So I can also send that hopefully merciful message to everybody here and in general that you don't have to be perfect to take a lead, you don't have to be perfect to succeed. You can also fail sometimes, get up and continue. It doesn't kill you. So I think we need to be a bit merciful from each other. And ourselves. And then we can also make better decisions together.
- [15:59]
Kavita Puri
But were you being merciful to yourself when in 2023, when your party came third, you decided to step down from politics with was that self preservation? Had you had enough? Were the attacks too much? What was behind that?
- [16:14]
Sanna Marin
I had also the opportunity then to evaluate my life as a party leader, as a prime minister. The job always comes first, always. No doubt about it, because that's the job. But I also had a small child at home. My daughter, who was just under two years old when I was took the office. And now when we had elections, we didn't enter first. My party also gained more support and more seats in the parliament. But we came third and the opposition parties won. That is usually the case in Finland actually. And now we are in the opposition. I'm sure our party will win the next elections. But when we didn't enter first, I also had that personal right to evaluate my life. And I realized and understood that my child.
- [17:09]
That had been there for the whole time of COVID and the war and NATO and the endless negotiations and I hadn't seen her enough. Now was her time. And I wanted to spend more time with her. So I was able to decide also. So from my family's perspective and from her perspective to take a step back. And I'm really happy that I did it because now I can also spend so much more time with her. I'm not sure, is that like sexy answers nowadays that I want to spend more time with my child? And not only no, but you're probably not here.
- [17:48]
Kavita Puri
Oh.
- [17:57]
Sanne is going to be 40 this weekend, so you've got time is on your side. You can go back into politics. Your book is called Hope in Action. Give us some hope.
- [18:09]
Sanna Marin
Well, I will, I will give you some hope. And I think the hope is there because we can all see that the world is quite dark place nowadays. The big problems that humanity is facing, climate change, loss of biodiversity, all the things that that will cause cause more wars, more conflicts everywhere, rising geopolitical turbulence. Entering this world of strong men where the international rules based order is being questioned. War in Europe as we speak. So the world looks very, very ugly place sometimes and very dark place. But it doesn't have to be like this because it wasn't pretty. Also in the days when we look back, but there were so many people that fought for equality, for human rights. We built together the rules based order, international order. After the second World War we in the Nordics, we built our welfare societies. And everywhere we have Also taken so much progress and taking step forward. And that didn't happen to just out of somewhere out of the blue, there were people that were fighting and acting and engaging in politics. And that is my hope also today, even though the world might look very ugly and very nasty and very dark, sometimes we can do things. We don't have to accept that it is this way. Everybody can engage in their own way and we can make a brighter future together. So there's always hope when there is action. And I trust people that they can do amazing things together. And I won't leave politics as such. Even though I don't have political position anymore, I also want to work for these issues. And I'm doing that from different positions and in different ways. And everybody can do something. And I think together we can make things happen.
- [20:11]
Kavita Puri
Thank you. Sana.
- [20:20]
How's your voice?
- [20:22]
Sanna Marin
My voice is actually great. Watching is okay.
- [20:24]
Kavita Puri
I think talking helped.
- [20:25]
Sanna Marin
Maybe talking helped.
- [20:28]
Kavita Puri
If the lights could go up, that would be really wonderful. And we'd love to hear your questions. I'd really want to hear from the school kids here, here as well, the next generation. If you've got any questions for Sana, do put your hand up. Thank you.
- [20:44]
Sanna Marin
What do you wish more young people.
- [20:45]
Kavita Puri
Understood about how government actually works?
- [20:48]
Sanna Marin
Of course, in different countries, governments work differently and we have different political systems. What is great about Finland and Nordics is that of course we have different parliamentarian system. We have more parties within our parliament, and you don't have to have that great amount of money or that kind of background and heritage from your side to run for office in local level or in national level. So it's much easier for young people to engage and to get elected and then to also delete your nation. And I only wish that we would have those kind of paths for young people elsewhere. It's much harder in nations like us where you have to have massive resources in two party system and massive machinery behind you before you can be elected anywhere. And of course, that kind of system also puts the people on the side that doesn't have those resources and that kind of background. So I think we need to also adjust our political systems to be more friendly towards the younger generation and towards people from different backgrounds and not to only say to them that, like, try your best, we need to make the systems better for everybody to be able to join. Thank you.
- [22:27]
I have a question about optimism, so it can feel with the news that we have in the world today that there's so many difficult, negative things happening. Multiple wars Going on the economy in a difficult place, potential looming recession. And it can feel hard to imagine that one person can really make a positive difference.
- [22:46]
Kavita Puri
So how do you keep your optimistic.
- [22:49]
Sanna Marin
That we can individually make a positive.
- [22:52]
Kavita Puri
Impact on the world around us?
- [22:54]
Sanna Marin
Well, that is true. Not a single individual, even a leader of a country, can do great things just by him or herself. We need a lot of people making that change. And that gives me hope and that gives me the positivity that I can also see that I can do my part. It's not all that is happening. There are also other people that are doing their part. And together, like I said before, together we can make things happen. I do worry about people nowadays because people are also quite depressed and they feel defeated, they feel quite alone. And I think this is also because we live in a society that is so individualized and we don't have that collectiveness and togetherness anymore. And if we don't have that, then we feel alone and we feel quite lost. So we also need to understand and remember that we are as humans, we are social beings and we need each other and we need groups where they belong and groups where we can work together. So I think that gives me the idea where we can find something positive or something bright when we are together and when we work together. Thank you.
- [24:18]
Kavita Puri
Can we have just the lady at the back over there with her arm? Oh, hi, Ms. Sana. Yes, hi, Sana. You're really, really inspiring. You're one of the most inspiring women I've ever known, and you're my role model. But other than than that, I wanted to ask you two questions. First of all, what makes Finland the happiest country in the world?
- [24:46]
Why is everyone laughing?
- [24:48]
Sanna Marin
It is true. We have reached the top level like nine years in a row or something.
- [24:54]
Kavita Puri
And what would be your message to me as a person who would want to change the world and wants to make the world a better place?
- [25:06]
Sanna Marin
Well, first of all, I will answer this last one, this last one first. I think you are more talented and capable than you give yourselves credit for. This is something that I have noticed with so many people, especially women, that they are so much smarter, talented and capable that they ever give them themselves granted for. So I would just say that seize opportunities and when you feel that you're not ready, then do it, because then you will learn and you will be ready. So I want to encourage you all to do things that you feel passionate about and don't let other people drag you down. And why Finland is the happiest country in the world. Well, if you ask Finnish people, they don't get it because we are not cheerful. But of course it tells you much deeper kind of happiness. It tells you the contentment of your society that you have within your society. Do you feel that you have possibilities in your life and that you can seek the way of life that you want. And maybe Finnish people, the way we are more happy than maybe some other Nordic countries that have that kind of same societal structure is that maybe we are a bit more humble. I hope I did show some humbleness also today here on the stage. But maybe we are a bit more humble in our dreams and hopes and then we are a bit more content what we have, because we don't think that we have to have everything, that if your neighbor has bigger car than me, I have to have the same car. And if your neighbor has bigger house or better job, I have to have the same. So maybe we are a bit more content what we have and we don't need that much more than maybe in somewhere else. And maybe that's why we are happy. But it's not the weather and it's not this time of the year. I can tell you that we have.
- [27:15]
Kavita Puri
Time for two more questions. There's a lady there at the back that had her hand up in a kind of brown top just there.
- [27:21]
Sanna Marin
I'd like to know what would be your next step and what is your long term ambition?
- [27:28]
What is my next steps? I don't know. And that's the beauty of it. I have never planned or ever had any kind of five year or ten year plan because I don't believe in it. I believe that life needs to be a mystery. I only know that I want to work with the same matters that I joined politics in the first place. Gender equality, human rights, making sure that everybody has those possibilities in their lives, that we have those kind of social structures on place. What will be my next jobs or passion? Well, if I could stop the climate change, that would be perfect. But I don't think I can do it by myself. But I want to work with the same matters and issues. But I don't have a plan for my career because I don't want to live predictable life, I want to live unpredictable life. Go ahead.
- [28:22]
Kavita Puri
Good evening, Sana. Sorry for the little bit of chaos. It's so lovely to hear you speak.
- [28:27]
Sanna Marin
My name is Diya and I'm a.
- [28:28]
Kavita Puri
Law student at Queen Mary and I'm also the president of their students union.
- [28:33]
Sanna Marin
Something that I wanted to ask is oftentimes when women lead, especially in positions where they're often the first to become prime minister or first to become leader, or even pioneers of sport, a lot of times they're seen as exceptions. But what. For example, in my country, we've had.
- [28:51]
Kavita Puri
A prime minister who was female in.
- [28:53]
Sanna Marin
1966, and we haven't had a female.
- [28:56]
Kavita Puri
Prime minister ever since.
- [28:57]
Sanna Marin
So what do we do as female leaders or. Or what should other women who are in positions of power do to make sure that they are not exceptions, but pioneers of change to extend the table to other women and make sure this is continued? Well, there have actually been a lot of studies done from this. You need a critical mass. When you have a critical mass of gender.
- [29:26]
At the table, whether it is a company table, a business table, or a political table, when you have that critical mass, then you will see the real change. It's not enough if there are one women on a board of a company or two women on the board of the company. You need enough to make that shift and change. And there have been a lot of studies also made from this. Finland has had three female prime ministers. I was the longest serving one. The first one had to resign very fast. The second came late on the term, served a year. And we have also had a female president for 12 years. So it's not a new thing in Finland that we have women on leadership positions. And of course, our government was led by five women. That was very exceptional. That happened. But still in Finland, I wouldn't say that we have reached that place where it is as normal to have female leader as male leader. But we have been getting there because of the work that has been done for decades and decades and the kind of society that we have been building. But when we look globally, there are not many women on those top positions, not in politics or not in business. And we need that critical mass to make that change happen. And that can be also done with legislation changes.
- [31:01]
Kavita Puri
Thank you. Can we go to this gentleman over here with his hand up?
- [31:05]
Sanna Marin
Thank you. Hello, my name is Ritwij. I am the editor of the Broad. My question to you is, in this work world, we often talk about thought. I mean, we often do thought leadership on several issues like climate change, sustainability, but the impact is like very minimum. We can see, like I come from New Delhi and I can see the level of pollution and the air quality index over there. And we can't even just stop talking about how much we are doing to combat climate change. But in general, the impact is very limited. So what can we do? To measure the gap between thought, leadership and impact.
- [31:39]
Kavita Puri
Thank you very much.
- [31:42]
Sanna Marin
I think we are not like. I will give you a general answer, not only answer this, this question, first of all, we are not doing enough as nations to stop climate change. We haven't reached those agreements that we all agreed in Paris. UK has actually done a lot compared to many other nations. And you have put on a legislation that also puts a price.
- [32:12]
To polluting and to emissions. And that's very good thing. And we would need those kind of models also elsewhere. But the fact is that we are not doing enough and we are already in that kind of pace where even though we would all put all our actions together now and make those decisions, the world temperature has risen already to that critical level where we will see the outcome of climate change anyway. So we have to also discuss and talk about medication and we need to talk about how can we deal with the consequences that we will anyway have and how we will share that burden between countries that are unfairly shared now and will be unfairly shared in the future. So the climate discussion that we are having should be much more complex because the situation is so much more complex than we might think about. Finland set one of the world's most ambitious climate targets within our legislation to aim to be climate neutral already in 2035 and Cliven negative soon after that. But we didn't do that only because we thought bright headedly that we can change this and we can tackle climate change in Finland and we can stop it. Of course not. But we also saw a big business opportunity. There are a lot of needs for climate solutions out there and we need a lot of climate solutions, new technological solutions because we need to take.
- [33:52]
Those emissions CO2 from the air. We cannot leave it there or otherwise we will have the kind of future that we don't want to see. And we need so different kind of technologies to tackle these big problems. So of course we saw also great, great business opportunity. And when we have that kind of see to the future or view to the future, where the businesses and companies can trust that the government won't shift every four years, then they can also build their development and their innovation based on that. And at the same time when we put this climate target, we also agreed parliamentarily together with all parties, also with the opposition, to raise our research and development funding up to 4% of our GDP. Because this is part of this tackling climate and also part hopefully of our economic success in the future. Well now we have a different government that is doing different economic policies and I won't go within domestic politics as a former prime minister, but I think these are the two things that we should focus climate and then education, research and development and new technologies.
- [35:15]
Kavita Puri
Thank you. It's been lovely talking to you and honestly, your book and the conversation tonight is hugely inspirational. Sanne's book is on sale in the foyer. I highly recommend it. Thank you for coming tonight and please thank Sana Marin.
- [35:40]
Thanks for listening to Intelligence Squared. This episode was produced by Ginny Hooker and it was edited by Mark Roberts. For ad free episodes and full length recordings. You can become a member@intelligencesquared.com membership and to join us at future events, head to intelligencesquared.com for to see our full program. You've been listening to Intelligence Squared. Thanks for joining us.
- [36:20]
Sanna Marin
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