Intelligence Squared — "The Courage to Lead," with Sanna Marin, Former Prime Minister of Finland (Part Two)

Date: December 7, 2025
Host: Kavita Puri
Guest: Sanna Marin
Location: Emmanuel Centre, London
Episode Focus: Sanna Marin, former Prime Minister of Finland, reflects on the challenges of leading during crisis, public scrutiny, sexism in politics, and her vision for democratic engagement and hope.

Episode Theme and Purpose

This episode centers on leadership under intense pressure, the personal and gendered challenges Sanna Marin faced as a young female prime minister, and her thoughts on societal progress, democracy, and hope. Marin discusses scandals, media scrutiny, double standards for women in leadership, her decision to leave politics, and offers perspective and advice to the next generation.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The "Scandals": Media Scrutiny, Sexism, and Double Standards

[03:01–06:37]

• Overview of Scandals: Marin details the so-called "blazer", "breakfast", "phone", and especially the "dancing scandal", all of which were largely focused on her private behavior rather than abuse of power.
• Media Frenzy: The scandals exemplified a "moral panic" and illustrated the different standards applied to women, especially young female leaders.

Quote:

"Nobody ever asked a male politician questions like: How can you be a leader when you have a small child at home? Or, how can you be at work today and be a professional when yesterday you went to a bar to watch football?"
— Sanna Marin [05:48]

2. Personal Impact and Double Standards

[06:37–12:56]

• Emotional Toll: The scandals, particularly the "dancing", frustrated Marin because they detracted from substantive work and required her to take a drug test to address baseless rumors.
• Support and Societal Issues: Despite negative media, Marin received significant public and international support, highlighting the disconnect between media narratives and societal sentiment.

Quote:

"I don't want to see a world where politicians have to pretend that they're not people...then they are so isolated from the reality where people live."
— Sanna Marin [10:18]

• Problem of Online Hate: Marin emphasizes that toxic online content and targeted abuse, especially toward women and marginalized groups, threatens democratic participation.

Quote:

"If we have a younger generation, women, people from different backgrounds, thinking that they cannot participate within our democracies, then we have a huge problem. So it's a societal problem, not a problem of individuals."
— Sanna Marin [11:48]

3. Authenticity and Honest Leadership

[12:56–15:59]

• Writing with Honesty: Marin's memoir is intentionally candid, describing her feelings of doubt and her experiences as a breastfeeding new PM, to show realism in high office.
• Mercy and Imperfection: Admits to periods of insecurity and argues that leaders need not be perfect; growth happens through challenge and failure.

Quote:

"You learn when you are not ready. If you are ready and know everything already, then what can you learn? Nothing."
— Sanna Marin [14:35]

4. Decision to Step Down

[15:59–17:48]

• Transition from Politics: After her party came third in the 2023 elections, Marin chose to step back to prioritize time with her young daughter—a rare display of family-oriented decision-making by a high-profile leader.
• Reflection on Priorities: Sees value in rebalancing life, though acknowledges this choice is sometimes viewed skeptically.

5. Hope in Dark Times

[17:56–20:11]

• Philosophy of Hope: Despite global crises, Marin urges continued engagement, activism, and political participation as antidotes to despair.
• Historical Perspective: Draws hope from past progress and believes individuals can still affect change today.

Quote:

"There's always hope when there is action. And I trust people that they can do amazing things together."
— Sanna Marin [19:36]

6. Q&A: Insights for the Next Generation

[20:27–35:14]

• On Youth Engagement and Political Systems:
  • Finnish politics allows easier, grassroots entry for young people compared to more exclusionary systems elsewhere. Marin advocates for lowering barriers worldwide.
  • "We need to...adjust our political systems to be more friendly towards the younger generation and towards people from different backgrounds." [21:08]
• Maintaining Optimism:
  • Collective action, community, and social bonds are essential for optimism and avoiding individual despair.
  • "We are social beings and we need each other...we can find something positive when we work together." [23:48]
• Advice for Change-Makers:
  • Encouragement, especially to young women, to believe in themselves, seize opportunities, and not be deterred by self-doubt.
  • "You are more talented and capable than you give yourselves credit for...When you feel that you're not ready, then do it, because then you will learn and you will be ready." [25:06]
• Finland’s Happiness:
  • Explains Finnish happiness as societal contentment and humility rather than exuberance.
  • "We are a bit more humble in our dreams and hopes and then we are a bit more content what we have." [26:15]
• Future Plans:
  • No set five- or ten-year plan; values unpredictability and continued work on gender equality, human rights, and climate change. [27:28]
• Gender Equality and Leadership:
  • Achieving breakthroughs requires reaching a critical mass of women in leadership.
  • "When you have a critical mass, then you will see real change." [29:25]
• On Measuring Impact in Climate Policy:
  • There’s a gap between declarations and real impact; comprehensive, stable policy and investment in technology and education are needed.
  • "We are not doing enough as nations to stop climate change...we need so different kind of technologies to tackle these big problems." [31:41, 33:52]

Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

• On the unrealistic expectations for women in power:
  "Women are not viewed as whole persons, as people that have many sides...They shouldn't be diminishing themselves because of these standards that nobody can meet." — Sanna Marin [09:27]

• On leaving office for family:
  "Now was her time. And I wanted to spend more time with her. So I was able to decide also...from her perspective to take a step back." — Sanna Marin [17:09]

• On sustained progress:
  "We don't have to accept that it is this way. Everybody can engage in their own way and we can make a brighter future together." — Sanna Marin [19:10]

• On critical mass in leadership:
  "It's not enough if there are one women on a board...You need enough to make that shift and change." — Sanna Marin [29:25]

Important Timestamps

• [03:01] Introduction to Marin’s scandals and public scrutiny
• [04:45] Discussion of "moral panic" and double standards
• [06:38] Marin’s feelings about the media firestorm and its impact
• [09:27] Societal reflections on women in politics
• [13:36] Marin on showing vulnerability and the reality of political leadership
• [15:59] Stepping down from politics and prioritizing personal life
• [18:08] Marin’s message of hope and agency
• [20:47] Youth engagement and differences in political systems
• [22:53] Maintaining collective optimism and mental health
• [25:06] Encouragement for young women and aspiring leaders
• [26:15] Answer on Finland’s global happiness rankings
• [27:28] Marin on her lack of a defined career plan
• [29:25] The need for critical mass to effect gender change in leadership
• [31:41] Addressing the gap between climate talk and impact

Conclusion

This episode of Intelligence Squared offers a revealing look at Sanna Marin’s experiences as a groundbreaking young female leader. Marin addresses the pressures of modern leadership, the gendered lens of media scrutiny, and the importance of inclusivity in politics. Her emphasis on realism, collective action, and hope resonates as a call to action for listeners to engage in creating a better future, no matter the obstacles.

For more inspiring conversations and debates, listen to Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts.