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Intelligence Squared
The Intelligence Squared Economic Outlook: Leadership Special, with Francine Lacqua (Part Two)
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- [00:02]
Moderator
I'm not giving up.
- [00:03]
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Francine Lacroix
The restaurant is flooded.
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Advertiser
Everything's either gonna be okay.
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Francine Lacroix
No, stop.
- [00:17]
Advertiser
Or not. We are outgunned and we are outmanned. But we have each other.
- [00:24]
Moderator
FX's the Bear the final Season all
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- [00:59]
Mia Sorrenti
welcome to Intelligence Squared, where great minds meet. I'm producer Mia Sorrenti. Today's episode is part two of our recent Intelligence Squared Economic Outlook Leadership Special. We were joined live at Smith Square hall in Westminster by Francine Lacroix, Editor at Large at Bloomberg TV and the anchor of Leaders with Lacroix. Few journalists have spent more time questioning the people who shape the global economy than Francine Lacroix at Bloomberg tv. She interviews three to four chief executives every day and over the course of her career has cross examined many of the heads of state, central bankers and founders who have shaped our world. This episode is part of the Intelligence Squared Economic Outlook created in partnership with Guinness Global Investors. Guinness Global Investors is an independent British fund manager that helps both individuals and institutions harness the future drivers of growth to achieve their investment goals. To find out more you can head to guinnessgi.com or see the link in the episode description. We're about to join Johnny diamond and Francine Lacroix for part two of their discussion at Smith Square Hall. If you missed part one, we recommend jumping back an episode to get up to speed.
- [02:10]
Moderator
Do you see the political turmoil that drives the popularity of Nigel Farage? Do you see that around the world as well? In particular, I guess in Europe?
- [02:21]
Francine Lacroix
I mean this is a party that's been really campaigning for, you know, it's an anti immigration party for a number of reasons to again, jobs, globalization that is a little bit more inward looking and you see patterns of that emerging starting with the us.
- [02:37]
Moderator
It's an anti system party as well as an anti immigration party, isn't it?
- [02:41]
Francine Lacroix
It's an anti system party that Italy tried three, four years ago and then went Back to a little bit more mainstream. It's a I'm fed up with whatever is coming next feeling. And that goes, I think to the multiple forces that our society is having to deal with. When you speak to leaders, and again we speak about leaders and we talk about chief executive and prime minister, but what is a leader? A leader is someone who makes decisions for people. So you could be a leader of four or five employees and you have to make that decision very well. I think it's very unsettling at the moment to look at where the world economy goes. I mean, 15, 20 years ago there was a much clearer view if you put the, I guess the financial crisis to one side, but there was a much clearer view on I have kids, my kids will become doctors or they'll do this or there's the globalization people believed in. So people went along with what the elite were telling them for a while. And I don't know if it's not worked or with the rise of China and a lot of the emerging markets where they've been doing goods that are much cheaper, it kind of puts the whole business model a little bit on the brink.
- [03:51]
Moderator
Coming back to Nigel Farage, what seems different about him and Reform UK is the very intense focus on him. Unlike say in France or in Germany where the populist party, it has its figures but it seems more broad based. There appear to be alternatives to simply one person. Am I right in that? Do you think that's a fair analysis? Or again, do you think that there is a very heavy focus on personality?
- [04:21]
Francine Lacroix
No, I think the focus on the personality and that's probably because of the advent of social media is probably everywhere. So Italy has Matteo Salvini, France has Marine Le Pen and now Jordan Bardella. And so it's people that crystallize, I guess the imagination of something that is anti system. I mean you have the same in Germany with the AfD. And so it's ideas that suddenly also become, you know what I hear a lot about Nigel Farage because he's also on tv. And so that's, you know, the way that you speak to citizens is much clearer or more direct is that he speaks like them and he thinks like them. And I think again, that's a very powerful tool. And you see the same in France when people speak about Marine Le Pen has a different connotation because of her father and she's been around for a very long time. But it goes back to people can relate to the uneasiness that they're seeing in these World forces, I think.
- [05:24]
Moderator
And in that sense, leadership has changed because of changes in technology, because of the environment having changed around them. The importance of communication then is multiplied over and over again.
- [05:39]
Francine Lacroix
It is, but because of a lot of social media, like I remember 10, 15 years ago, let's say 20 years ago, if you were a central banker, you'd come on Bloomberg to try and give a message to markets. Now, when you speak to central bankers, and it could be the ECB or the bank of England, they feel like they need to speak to the person that takes out the mortgage because they want to make sure that people understand what they do. So there's much more pressure to be understood. Now it's fine to understand about inflation and central bankers. I don't know if people want to understand that. I mean, it's kind of the plumbing. As long as it works. I don't know whether it's. It's. We need to understand exactly the swaps and the guilt market. But a lot of leaders feel that so that they're not misportrayed. They need to speak directly to the consumers, to the people. And I think it's the same for chief executives. I think it's the same for world leaders. I mean, I started doing this funny one minute and a half video where I talk about the five things that I look at every day. And I started doing it for my friend Alexander, who had four kids in Covid and said, I don't have time for news. I'm becoming more stupid by the hour. Fine. Since, I mean, is there a politician that doesn't do that? And so why? Because they feel like they need to connect and it's much better if it's told through their eyes in their own voice.
- [07:03]
Moderator
Given the place that Europe in particular, I guess, Britain, France and Germany find themselves in with their current leadership, do you see a generation of leaders coming up that Europe needs? I mean, Germany is in dreadful struggle. Macron is staggeringly unpopulous. We know about Keir Starmer. Do you see people in the pipeline that are the kind of leaders that will fire up the imagination of electorates and citizens?
- [07:32]
Francine Lacroix
I think less people, and I saw a poll recently, less people want to go into politics. So it means that the number of people that you can choose from is getting smaller. It's also extremely difficult for a politician to be everything to everyone, which is kind of needed. Right. So you have to be able to speak to the media and be good at the media. You have to be able to hold your party together, even if there are various factions and becomes messier. And I think as soon as you show a little bit of a sign of weakness, then other people want to challenge you. And I'm not necessarily speaking about the uk, but there is, you know, we went through it in a lot of countries in Europe, and that if you don't do a good job, your party doesn't give you a lot of time to recuperate. They don't give you the, you know, the time, even two, three years to see where it lands. And with all these external geopolitical kind of world wings, I think it's much harder.
- [08:32]
Moderator
Do you think there is a difference between the leadership cultures of big regions of the globe? I mean, us, Europe, China? Do you think there is a different way of treating leaders, or is it all similarly ruthless and difficult?
- [08:46]
Francine Lacroix
So I've been trying to get into China for an extended period of time, for a long time. And I've been trying to understand exactly what China wants, what China brings, how China views the world. And I've always been told that the smartest students want to serve their country, want to serve their party. So you go into business for a while and then you want to be part of the party to kind of give back. It also means that because there are not elections every three, four years, and I'm not saying this is a good or bad thing, but you can see longer term, which is why their attachments and the way that they think about problem solving. If you have 10, 15 years where you can get to natural resources, where you can get to copper and lithium, it's much easier than if you have to be popular every second of the day because you're worried about seeing votes. So the psyche is completely different. And so having more time means that you can build better foundations.
- [09:45]
Moderator
And between Europe and the US or do you think they are roughly equivalent, the leadership cultures?
- [09:51]
Francine Lacroix
I mean, I think Donald Trump changed everything. I think there's not much dissent in the Republican Party. That means that he's in control and he has support. I've also been told something quite, for me, surprising by a big Wall street banker recently because we were talking about the fact that it's very difficult to know U.S. policy. I mean, it's really difficult to understand whether there's a real deal with Iran or not. The latest is this memorandum of understanding. I think it's the 28th times that the president said that we're going to have something concrete. I mean, you, you've done foreign policy all your life. Ten years ago, the president of the US said, there's a deal, there's a deal. Now it's not, you know, it's not clear. And it kind of goes backwards and forwards. And this big Wall street banker who's been around for 30 years told me, like, no, you're thinking about it wrong. You shouldn't look at policy through tweets. I'm like, so how do. So how do you look at policy? And he says, look at the advisors. You need to have connections in. I mean, the way that leaders communicate. Also, I remember getting a press statement, and sometimes you were able to listen in to, you know, press conferences or even when the President of the United States was speaking to the staff. Now it's different. It's policy by tweets all times of day. And so that, you know, the communication is very different. And I think we're used to it a lot more.
- [11:11]
Moderator
But there's no spillover from that kind of leadership into the business world. There's still a different way of doing things when it comes to the CEOs and CEOs that you talk to.
- [11:23]
Francine Lacroix
Well, I mean, the business world has to figure out what's policy and what's not, right? So they need to cut out what the noise is. And so when you look at these policies, they kind of have to decide whether they believe it or not. And I think there's a huge amount of FOMO in the market. So if the President tells you every three days that they're very close to a deal, well, you don't want to miss out. At the end of the day, the market is there to put the money so to make money. So you don't want to be on the wrong trade, on the wrong side of the trade. You don't want to miss the time where there actually is a deal, which is why the market has been behaving a lot badly. I mean, weirdly, I don't know if there are many markets people, but if you look at oil, I mean, this is a conversation that we have almost every day. It's like, why has it been, okay, so some of the disruption has been priced in, but there has been an optimistic belief in the market that a deal could have been reached, even if all the military folk were saying, like, look, we're not seeing how a deal gets through on nuclear and things like that. And I think it's because you can't really afford to bet against the US President.
- [12:30]
Moderator
Just a reminder, we're going to come to questions from the audience. We have questions coming in from people who are Watching online. Thank you very much for those. And we'll come to questions in about 15 minutes time. Let us talk on something you have touched on, which is AI. And we talk more and more in these gatherings about the impact of AI. Unsurprisingly. Do you feel confident even talking about who will gain and who will lose? Do you have any sense that where you will be six months, 12 months, two years down the line with AI?
- [13:05]
Francine Lacroix
No, and I don't think the people that are building it themselves know. And my favorite question to ask, especially if it's, you know, off camera, is where's China? And all of this. And I'm often told, don't worry, they're six to eight months away. It was like six to eight months away. I mean, that feels awfully close. So I don't think who will be the big winner. I don't think there is one winner. There could be two or three, I have a hunch. But again, it could change that. It is the US And I think the only two people in the race is US and China. I think you do have companies such as Mistral AI in France, that's considered one of Europe's greatest hope for AI. But actually what they do is going to be vastly different because they will integrate, unless there's a big sea change, they will integrate some of these models in enterprise. And so the way I would see it is not everyone can afford Ferrari, not everyone can afford millions of pounds to spend on quote or some of these very expensive digital tokens that a lot of the companies are using now. And so you'll have spinoff models that will kind of take these super sexy models and integrated into their system. So again, when you speak to a lot of the chief executives, especially the kind of, the very sophisticated ones, I mean, we've had and we've reported on instances where you know what a person is spending on digital tokens, which means what they're spending in their day to day job to play around with AI is higher than their salary. I mean, this is not really sustainable. And so when you speak to the people in charge, they say, well, I want them to play around at the moment, but at some point, some point I'm going to have to look at costs and that will have to change.
- [14:47]
Moderator
Do the people that you speak to feel they understand the capabilities of AI?
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Francine Lacroix
I mean, I think the chief executives that are, I guess, the most honest will say I understand it's important and I don't want to miss out, but I don't have a full Understanding of what this will become. A little bit like Amazon. I mean we looked back because of the SpaceX IPO at some of the big moments in time where, you know, in recent times where, for example Amazon, I mean when they IPO people are saying like what books online, I quite like my bookstore. And so you understand that there's something that you can't miss out on. You understand that it's something that will probably change the way we work, that will make us more productive. Everybody thought it was disinflationary, but actually it is definitely inflationary in the shorter term because of the amount being spent in the race. And so they understand to some extent how it can change, but they're also still playing around with it.
- [15:50]
Moderator
What of the regulators? What of nation states? Again, you talk to central banks in particular, I guess. Do they feel they are strong enough? Do they feel they are keeping up with the race?
- [16:07]
Francine Lacroix
Well, I mean for me the big problem, and I hear that a lot from people in leadership position, is that as soon as you talk about regulating, you know, business say well that's a European problem. You regulate because you can't innovate. And so it's almost a dirty word to talk about regulation. So social media is one thing and maybe we can talk about the ban for social media in under 16s, which is completely different. But if you start thinking about these ideas that you would regulate artificial general intelligence or how much you use it or how or the access you can have to it, I think at the moment it's seen as a bad word. I think you're seen as not an innovator as you're seen as backward looking, as a dinosaur. And so apart from a few parliamentaries in Europe that still look at it very seriously, I think businesses really push back against regulation.
- [17:06]
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- [19:33]
Francine Lacroix
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Francine Lacroix
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- [20:37]
Moderator
And do you believe that AI will erode sovereignty of nations? I mean, they may not control the technology. They'll still be the ones making decisions about welfare benefits, about going to war, about where people cross the road, all these kinds of issues. How does AI touch on that?
- [20:57]
Francine Lacroix
So I think there's a problem if you're sitting in Europe at the moment, because you, you could see a world where you integrate your systems and this we haven't really been able to get to the bottom of. But you integrate your systems in the NHS or your warfare or your defense systems. And because it's American technology, do you have fully ownership of that or is there a kill switch that the US government can say, right, that's it, you need to change. So again, the doomsayers will say, you're going to have two to three systems where the US will be much more advanced in kind of driving this. Europe will be left behind somewhere in the middle and China will go out their way. I mean, that is, I think, the big risk for Europe and European sovereignty. You hear a lot of chief executives trying to integrate these systems and saying, I wish I had a European equivalent because that would make my life easier, because I would feel more supported and I'd feel better at ease on this question of sovereignty. I know there's also a huge debate with regulators of banks, be it central bank, ECB or the banks themselves, saying, well, the US have a really unfair advantage because they've been playing around with Mythos and they can't get their hands on it. Does that equalize in three, four years? Do you need, is it really first mover advantage at everything? I'm not sure, but I think Europe really wishes they had some of these big personalities in Europe now. There's Demis, of course, he's uk, he's London based, Google dp.
- [22:29]
Moderator
You've spoken with him, haven't you?
- [22:30]
Francine Lacroix
Yeah, I've spoken to him many times and I think he also did an event here. I think he speaks quite truthfully in saying he is probably now in a race that has so many billions at stake that some of the questions that he would like to think about, which is regulation, which is the future of humanity, don't really come into this right. And we know Dariel Modet is thinking about it. But again, if you're in a race to make money, to be the first, if it's technological advancements that you need to Push through. It's difficult to take time out of that to think about regulation or some of these big philosophy kind of morality questions that we'll be faced with.
- [23:11]
Moderator
What do you make of the. I mean, it's a clumsy phrase, but the sort of cult of the founder that this astonishing elevation of a very few individuals who created these vastly powerful companies.
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Francine Lacroix
So I get asked a lot, is he a good guy? Is she a good person? I don't think it means anything. You can be a good person with the best intentions. I think when you are in charge of companies that make billions of pounds that have a value of a trillion, once you're listed, if you don't deliver that commercial revenue, then you will be get rid of. And so it doesn't really matter if you're a good person or not.
- [23:56]
Moderator
Do these people still have agency?
- [24:00]
Francine Lacroix
People have agency, but at the end of the day, once you're listed, you have shareholders that you have to reply to. Right. And so now is probably the time to think about all of that. But I do see that the zealous regulation that was maybe in Europe four or five years ago has been a little bit lost because of this race that's being accelerated.
- [24:25]
Moderator
Are you confident from what you know about the people who lead these companies, that they are responsible people to hold the fate of humanity in their hands?
- [24:36]
Francine Lacroix
I think it's too big for any person. I don't think it's right, you know, or certainly they probably don't think it's right that it belongs to one single entity. And so I think it'll be tricky.
- [24:52]
Moderator
Let us talk about the questions that we've received. I'm going to do an online question while we get your questions. First, a simple one here. Are people unfair to Keir Starmer? In what way has he actually failed as pm? It's a leadership question.
- [25:07]
Francine Lacroix
It is a leadership question. I think he's seen as not having the right temperament. I think that's probably his biggest flaw. There was the Mandelson saga, which definitely didn't go well for him. And if you analyze that, it was almost a very, I mean, simple leadership problem that he wasn't aware to the extent of how toxic Peter Mendelssohn was. Now, in every good leadership lesson, whether you're a Prime Minister or a chief executive, you have to foster a culture where people kick up real concerns. And the fact that he was unable to do that, I don't know if it's a sackable offense, but certainly it doesn't look great on the cv. I think maybe people expect too much of leaders today, given all of the uncertainty. They want to be led, they want to feel safe. And again, the other leadership lesson is that you have to hold your party right. If people didn't challenge him, he's been having a lot of bad weeks. I know the local elections, they go to plan, but if you don't have your party behind you, then it becomes really, really difficult.
- [26:17]
Moderator
And what people home in on is the lack of the sort of charismatic role in him, which I think is sometimes neglected with politicians because they have so many other things to do as well. But it's pretty critical actually. I mean it is actually a part
- [26:37]
Francine Lacroix
of the job, isn't Is. I don't know if it should be like so I have a very weird relationship with the word charismatic because usually it means that you're upbeat, you know, you get people involved. But if it's not based on substance, then what is it? I think, I think, you know, the fighting spirit is maybe what I would look for. Decisiveness is something that's important in leaders rather than charisma. But you're right, charisma has elected presidents, have failed presidents in all parts of the world, in the us, in the uk, certainly has in France, Italy and even Germany. So you have to believe your leader. Like at the end of the day there's a social contract which was started in the 18th century, which is look, I give this, I work, but the state does this for me. And the does this depends on whether you're right or left. It could be completely deregulate and make you agent of your own destiny. Or it can say, look, I'm going to give you social welfare, Social Security and take care of you in difficult times. And this is what the social contract is. And it again it means different things to different cultures, different countries. But there is an understanding that the leader takes care of you somehow. If you don't feel that in a leader, that's when people feel lost and they want to change.
- [27:53]
Moderator
Let's talk if we could to our audience here. I'm going to take groups of three questions. Gentleman here, gentleman there, and lady here.
- [28:00]
Francine Lacroix
I just wanted to ask you about
- [28:03]
Moderator
question to do with public private partnerships and I want to compare for example NASA and SpaceX. They can be seen as innovative in terms of the success and here in London I can think of the success of the Elizabeth line and how it's been successful. So at the moment I feel there's too much doom and gloom and do you think that they need needs to be some kind of innovative communication, bringing the public and private sectors together, like Mariana Mazukatu has suggested. What's your take on that, please? We'll take the other two questions and then come to you. Just reflecting on the poll results earlier, do you think over the next three years the consequences of Brexit will begin to turn the tide on that expectation of a sort of strong farage showing in a future election? Thank you. And the lady at the front here,
- [29:05]
Francine Lacroix
thank you so much for this. God, there's so many questions I want to ask, but I will try to restrain myself. The first one is, do you see any leadership coming out of the middle powers, so to speak, right now? Because this is one of the big kind of mega trends at the moment, is what are the middle powers going to do? And especially when it comes to AI and digital sovereignty and some of the topics we've raised here. The second little question is just what do you see amongst all these powerful people that you see as a megatrend amongst them? What do you see consistently as you interview them that stands out as a pattern, let's say.
- [29:45]
Moderator
Thank you very much indeed. The first question about public private partnerships, the need for innovation as a way of escaping some of the doom and gloom there is at the moment.
- [29:56]
Francine Lacroix
So it's a great question and I've spoken to Mariana Matsukado a lot about this. She looks at it a little bit differently from some of the global institutions. So, again, the IMF is very open to public part, you know, public private partnerships. Brookfield Asset Manager also does quite a lot of public private partnerships, especially when it comes to infrastructure. Now, Professor Matsukada's main points, which is difficult to disagree with, is that when you have a public private partnership and you get money from a state actor, you need to make sure that you get something back. So she says in the contract, if I'm the state, you're private, I give you money for innovation. I need to get something back. This is not free money that goes. And then you go to the US or somewhere else. And I have a lot of sympathy for that.
- [30:43]
Moderator
Right.
- [30:44]
Francine Lacroix
There's a lot of the public private partnerships, especially in the us, where the founders were locked in to explore some of that with universities. The UK has, for me, the most amazing universities in the world. They compete with MIT and a couple in the us. You've had innovation, you've had a lot of vaccines. Vaccines, and that was useful. And that was public private money that worked together in a lot of the other places. You need to make sure. That there's a mutual understanding that this is a business, that we go in it together, and I, as a state, reap some of the rewards because otherwise, then it goes to different parts of the world. And this, I think, is more relevant to innovation. So if you look at some of these people, partnerships in the past, they were on infrastructure. So on infrastructure, okay, we come together, we do a road, we do an airport, and we share the profits. There's not much of the innovation that has to go anywhere. But as we look to the future and some of these new technologies that has to be baked in. And I tried to ask, actually Marina Matsukaro, if this was because we weren't good at thinking about these contracts between the government, because they're not used to it, and innovation at this level, the US has just been much stronger on it because from the start, 40, 50 years ago, this was a matter of political influence. So if you look at the space race, I mean, this was really a matter of getting your allies hooked to some other technologies. And so it was treated just like a trade policy. And I think Europe for a long time failed to see that.
- [32:28]
Moderator
Thank you. The next one was about the poll which we held and the sort of rather hefty lead that Nigel Farage had there as the consequences of Brexit play out, the economic consequences, I presume the gentleman is talking about primarily. Do you think that affects the popularity of Nigel Farage? Does it change people's minds?
- [32:49]
Francine Lacroix
So we did a brilliant report last week, actually, because it's 10 years of Brexit. And so we looked at, you know, some of the median deviation on growth. I think what, what we'd said from the start is that it's very difficult to untangle the effects of Brexit compared to the rest of the world. Right. So there's an energy crisis, there was trade. And so I think even if there's a poll that says that some people would like to rejoin, I think it'd be very difficult to actually prove at the end of the day exactly what kind of effects this had, because it all gets muddled into one.
- [33:24]
Moderator
Right.
- [33:24]
Francine Lacroix
So is my energy cost higher because of the trade, because I wasn't allowed to trade with Europe, or was it because of everything that's been happening in Ukraine and the Central Bank? So I think hindsight is a beautiful thing, but I think it's very difficult for this to be placed, played out and for politicians to say, you see, this is because of Brexit and if you can't pinpoint to Something voters don't tend to agree with you. I mean, people, voters have a nagging feeling about something not right. They just don't feel good about the economy. So when we look at charts, sure, it's affordability, it's housing, it's education, it's inflation, but sometimes they're not able to really explain why. And I think the relationship between the UK and the EU was, is very difficult. I mean, you can put it into numbers, but the Brexit vote was a bit more of a feeling than numbers. And so, I don't know, you know, we've seen it play out. It's been 10 years. If Nigel Farage is popular now, I don't think there's going to be a big switch because of Brexit. Maybe there's a big switch switch because of something else, but I don't think Brexit will be the one that changes people's minds.
- [34:43]
Moderator
Leadership from middle powers, in particular on AI and digital sovereignty. Do you see it?
- [34:49]
Francine Lacroix
Yeah. So the middle power, look, Mark Carney is a little bit of the beacon of. And he called Canada middle power. And I was in Davos, actually. He gave an incredible speech where he really was very honest about the fact that we're not going back to, to the old world. And I do think it's a human trait to want to hang on to what you've known all of your life. So the benefits of globalization and things like that. He hasn't been able really to form an alliance. I mean, I remember from, you know, I don't know if it was January 20th or 21st. We were kind of on the watch out and saying, well, could you see a kind of alliance with, you know, so Canada, the uk, maybe Finland for some kind of trade bloc that would somehow be, you know, the David and Goliath masterful fight with the us that hasn't really been proven. I don't think it means it won't happen because I think maybe under closed doors there is a lot more organization and countries will want to help themselves if they have the same beliefs because we are seeing trading blocks change depending on whether you're an ally or not in terms of thinking. But again, it will take a long time to play out. I don't think it's something of tomorrow. I think Mark Carney maybe would have wanted more countries to say, oh yeah, I mean, let's do this together. And that hasn't really quite played out because even decoupling from the US or disinlining is very tough at the moment. I mean, the US has a very strong economy. No matter what you think about the President and his leadership style, the innovation is coming from the us. Productivity is coming from the US And I'm hearing more chief executives saying, well, actually I'm thinking of listing in the US rather than say, oh, you know what, I don't really want to do business in the U.S. so it's quite, yeah, it's complicated going forwards, but something to think about.
- [36:47]
Moderator
And there was a second question as well. To see a sort of mega trend amongst the leaders that you speak to. Is there anything you could point to where you say, this is how they act, this is how they speak? This is exactly.
- [37:02]
Francine Lacroix
I mean, what drives them, I think, is success. And it usually works if it's success for, I mean, I don't know if it's great or good, that's a little bit like rose water. But if it's something that says, look, we're in this together and will do better. There's a pattern which I've been seeing in people how they problems or how they see problems. And a lot of the people that are most successful look at data. And this is not for politicians, I'm speaking about chief executives, but they look at data and they're able to see in the data pattern where it doesn't work out. And this is where they're able to either spot opportunities, then I see a lot of just common sense. Right. I mean, one of the. So I do a leadership podcast with chief executives and the one that really resonates with our viewers is where someone says, well, you know, what's really important is not promoting the wrong kind of people. I mean, it doesn't get more basic than that. But if you have large organizations, that gets lost. And so it's having common sense and kind of going back to, to leading in the same way, if you had 10 people than if you have 100,000, that kind of usually gets them a little bit ahead.
- [38:17]
Moderator
We're going to have to wrap it up there. Thank you very much. Thanks to Guinness Global Investors. Thanks to Intelligence Square. But most of all, thanks to Francis.
- [38:24]
Advertiser
Absolutely brilliant.
- [38:24]
Francine Lacroix
Thank you.
- [38:25]
Moderator
Congratulations. That was lovely. Thank you. Thank you very much.
- [38:28]
Francine Lacroix
Thank you.
- [38:34]
Mia Sorrenti
Thanks for listening to Intelligence Squared. This episode was created in partnership with Guinness Global Investors. It was produced by me, Mia Sorrenti and it was edited by Mark Roberts. For more information on Guinness, just head to guinnessgi.com or see the link in the episode description. For ad free episodes and full length recordings, you can become a member@intelligencesquared.com membership and if you'd like to join us at future live events, you can head over to intelligencesquared.com attend to see our full program or buy tickets. You've been listening to Intelligence Squared. Thanks for joining us.
- [39:25]
Advertiser
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Francine Lacroix
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