← Intelligence Squared
Intelligence Squared
The Intelligence Squared Economic Outlook, with Robert Peston (Part Two)
00:36:31
Loading summary
Transcript51 lines
- [00:01]
Progressive Insurance Advertiser
Insurance isn't one size fits all, and shopping for it shouldn't feel like squeezing into something that just doesn't fit. That's why drivers have enjoyed Progressive's Name your price tool for years. With the Name your price tool, you tell them what you want to pay and they show you options that fit your budget enough. Hunting for discounts, trying to calculate rates, and tinkering with coverages. Maybe you're picking out your very first policy, or maybe you're just looking for something that works better for you and your family. Either way, they make it simple to see your options. No guesswork, no surprises. Ready to see how easy and fun shopping for car insurance can be? Visit progressive.com and give the Name your price tool a try. Take the stress out of shopping and find coverage that fits your life on your terms. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law
- [00:54]
Indeed Sponsored Jobs Advertiser
when you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit@ Indeed.com podcast. That's Indeed.com podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored
- [01:23]
Mia Sorrenti
Jobs welcome to Intelligence Squared, where great minds meet. I'm senior producer Mia Sorrenti. Can Britain's next Prime Minister restore confidence in an increasingly uncertain world? In this episode, we return for Part two of our recent live event with journalist, broadcaster and author Robert Peston. Peston joined us recently at Smith Square hall to discuss Britain's political and economic future under Andy Burnham. Peston was in conversation with BBC broadcaster Johnny Diamond. This episode is part of the Intelligence Squared Economic Outlook created in partnership with Guinness Global Investors. Guinness Global Investors applies the same spirit of inquiry behind Intelligence Squared to the search for investment success for your portfolio. With funds in the regions and themes driving future growth, Guinness Global Investors uses discipline and conviction to help you achieve your investment goals. To find out more, just head to guinnessgi.com or see the link in the episode description. Now, if you haven't heard part one of this discussion, we recommend jumping back an episode to catch up. But now let's return to the conversation. Let's live at Smith Square hall in Westminster.
- [02:29]
Johnny Diamond
I've got very large letters on the screen in front of me. Let's move to the vote results next.
- [02:34]
Robert Peston
Why not?
- [02:35]
Johnny Diamond
Which I slipped Away. We can see the results up on the screen. You can see them here. This was. Does Andy Burnham have what it takes to restore confidence in Britain's economy? Fairly thumping majority for no. Just to kick off with a confidence or lack of it. No. The problems are bigger than one leader says, let's say 40% of our audience. Do you think our audience are being perfectly sensible there?
- [03:01]
Robert Peston
Look, I'm an optimist, okay? I mean, you know, Keir Starmer himself said, and I thought he was very gracious about this. I mean he, you know, he said in terms, I was just in Turkey at the NATO conference and he came over and had a chat and he said in terms that he felt he'd done what he could, as it were, for the Labour Party. And you shouldn't underestimate, I mean, I remember the 2019 general election genuinely doesn't feel six years ago extraordinary when Boris Johnson came in with that 80 seat majority and I said overnight that the likelihood is that with that sort of majority the Tories would be in for 10 years. Right. And you should not, despite the incredible self harm the Tories did to themselves, you shouldn't underestimate the work that Starmer did to sanitize the Labour Party for many voters. Now it is also true that their, you know, the actual numbers of votes that they got in the last general election was actually fewer than they got in 2019, but you know, they were more efficiently spread, to use that bit of jargon. So. But that was an achievement. But he, you know, has said, and he said in this little meeting that we had that he, you know, he recognized that this was no longer his moment, that, you know, essentially his colleagues and much of the country had lost confidence in him, in his ability to, you know, fix these problems in the run up to the election. Therefore he felt it was, you know, perfectly appropriate to go. And I genuinely, you know, as I say, I think he is a decent man and I've got a lot of time for him, even if I still wonder why he wanted to be Prime Minister. So it probably was the case that in order to get the kind of revival we all think hope for, you needed a new leader. We talked a bit about the importance of the cabinet and I'm not going to get into who the best Chancellor would be, but it is, if you look back at the history, certainly the post war history, right, this is not the moment where you want another sort of technocrat who's going to listen to treasury worries about fiddling around with the fiscal rules on the margin to keep the markets happy. The most important job of this government is to present a credible. I keep saying this growth path, right? And you need somebody in the treasury who has a view about how the economy works. And, you know, I mean, actually, it's as simple as that. Okay? And we haven't, you know, you may, you know, opinions will be divided on Jeffrey Howe, Nigel Lawson, Gordon Brown, George Osborne. Very different chancellors, all really important chancellors, because they had a coherent view about what you needed to do to fix the economy. Not everything they did was good, but they had a coherent and consistent set of policies. And we haven't seen any. Anything like that since 2000. Well, since Brexit, in fact, we've had a whole succession of effectively technocratic chancellors who were more or less captured by treasury officials who, if they're not being led broadly, just focus on all sorts of tinkering things to do with the public finances. You never. If you're going to fix this country, you need leadership. And now I'm not going to tell you who among Burnham's colleagues can provide that kind of leadership. But if you can't find somebody to provide that leadership, we are in trouble.
- [07:37]
Johnny Diamond
When we were downstairs before we started, you were talking about what was not being talked about with some vigor, and that was AI, artificial intelligence, about which you appear to think that almost no politician seems to have any ideas about. And you were quite excised about it. You've heard nothing from Andy Burnham.
- [07:58]
Robert Peston
So I'm now going to do the plug for the book, because the book, the sort of tension and jeopardy in the book is all about artificial intelligence, and it's all about whether, you know, it's this whole issue of how malevolent AI can be. Now, broadly, my view about AI is it can be. Is simultaneously a force for tremendous good and potentially a force for absolutely extreme harm. Right? And, you know, there are various different versions of this. One of them is the most basic, the most unbelievably ordinary of all of this is AI is now replacing jobs now and, you know, will, you know, replace more and more jobs, not just, you know, in law and accountancy and those services, but if you've looked at the latest state of AI fueled robotics, you know. You know, and there are so many robots now in Chinese factories, you know, just on the economic front. I mean, one of the. You know, if we're gonna. You know, one of the people thought I was absolutely crazy during the 2024 general election, because every night on News at 10, when I was talking to Tom Bradby. I would round up my assessment of the day by saying, but the big scandal is nobody's talking about how we're going to adapt to artificial intelligence. And more recently, the government, they've now got an AI minister and they've got an AI safety unit. Safety unit and they've got an AI jobs unit. So they are beginning to at least do the work. But they're way behind the curve, particularly compared to countries in Asia and the Middle East. But the big questions are if people lose their jobs, what is the welfare system that's going to be in place to protect people's living standards as they retrain? How are we going to adapt? How are we going to adapt our schools again? You know, people, schools are so. Well, I do think the Department of Education totally blinkered about, about the challenge this is gonna pose for the way that kids learn for this new
- [10:09]
Johnny Diamond
world.
- [10:09]
Robert Peston
If all these jobs are eliminated, where are tax revenues gonna come from that are gonna pay for our public services? This is really big stuff given the scale of fortunes that are accruing to the owners of and investors of these services. I mean, Elon Musk, a trillionaire. I mean, most of us can't get our head around quite how much wealth that is, right? You know, again, you know, basically if all the added value is being sucked off by a tiny number of people, you know, this is a challenge to democracy. It's a challenge to, as I say, where we get the revenues to, you know, fund our states. Right? This is massive stuff. And I'm not, and I haven't even begun to talk, you know, about the existential risk of, you know, self improving artificial general superintelligence, where when you, you know, when you talk to people like, you know, Dario Amadei and you know, Denis Hasabis and these are bonafide, they're not any financial geniuses. These are, you know, super brains as human beings, right? And they talk about the meaningful potential for this godlike AI to escape from the guardrails that these companies put in place to keep them benign. Because when you are a self improving, writing your own code AI, of course you can undo anything that humans have put in place to protect humanity. So there is genuinely a part of this AI revolution. It is a revolution changing what we think of as life changing culture, everything. But there's also a part of it which is like nuclear weapons, right? You know, there is a, you know, when you talk to these people, they say demisisabis, Dariamadis, there's a meaningful risk that AI will wipe out humanity. They don't say it's. They don't say it's nil, but they say it's real. And yet we don't talk about any of this stuff.
- [12:15]
Progressive Insurance Advertiser
Right.
- [12:16]
Robert Peston
Which is sort of astonishing and rather, you know, rather worrying, which is what the book's about.
- [12:24]
Johnny Diamond
And I should say there will be a signing session for them as wants it briefly, I think, after we finish. Briefly, only because there is a football match looming. I want to get questions from you, if we could, both from those watching on the live stream. Do send your questions in. And from people who are busy fanning themselves in the audience here. Sir, shall I go first? Yes, please.
- [12:49]
Robert Peston
Yeah.
- [12:49]
Johnny Diamond
So the government has set a lot
- [12:51]
Robert Peston
of store by what can be achieved
- [12:53]
Johnny Diamond
through changes to the planning system to get house builders, building and development going. And my question to you, Robert, is, is the government or the current government placing too much faith in what development can achieve for the economy? Thank you, sir. And we'll get the microphone to the lady almost at the back there with her hand up and then we'll bring it forward to the gentleman here as well.
- [13:18]
Robert Peston
Thank you, Adam.
- [13:19]
Audience Member 1
Hello. I am actually not based in London, I'm based in New York. And I'm kind of curious who is the public sector for? And I see that some companies in the private sector seem to be helping more people than the public sector.
- [13:36]
Johnny Diamond
Thank you. Just bring a microphone here. Gentleman here, sir.
- [13:39]
Robert Peston
If you were in charge, what three things would you do that would make the biggest impact? And how do we get better politicians?
- [13:47]
Johnny Diamond
Right, that was, in case you didn't catch it, that was, if you were in charge, what three things would you do? And how do we get better politicians? Which suggests we don't have good ones at the moment. So I'm not going down that path. Right. First of all, planning. Too much emphasis on it, too much weight on it.
- [14:03]
Robert Peston
Look, obviously house building is not the only answer, but, you know, we need a lot more housing in this country, particularly, you know, housing that young people can afford. I mean, and, you know, the rate of development, despite the fact there have been some planning changes, is still pathetically low. And we'll wait and see whether Andy Burnham could do better. There's only one thing I would actually do, if I'm honest with you, and it sounds tedious, but it's a process thing. Right. I would have a rule policed by, I mean, ultimately by the Prime Minister himself. Right. But with, I don't know, we've got this new job of what is it? Chief Secretary, the Prime Minister, which is the Darren Jones job. But anyway, you basically would have a rule that almost no significant announcement or policy could be made, announced without assessing whether it was going to make basically people richer or poorer, what it was going to do to the group growth rate of the economy. And then there would be a judgment made in Downing street by the Prime Minister about whether the other benefits of whatever it was outweighed. For example, there's quite a lot this government done that has been negative for growth, like for example, the rise in employers, national insurance. Right. And I think if we'd had that kind of rule, that just would not have happened. They would have to have found, you know, they might even have ended up breaking the manifesto, which possibly might not have been such a bad thing. Right. But what, you know, what you need is this sort of ruthless focus at the center because it just, it just, you know, if basically you say to ministers, if it's bad for growth, you can't do it. I mean, this is true, this should be true of every department. If it's bad for growth, I'm not saying you do it permanently, but you do it certainly for the first few years of a government. And that given that actually there is a natural momentum in the economy and given that there are enormous things that are amazing about our economy, we are getting really significant spin outs of amazing businesses out of universities at the moment. We, we have a huge problem in terms of scale up finance. And another thing that I would do, tagged onto what you're saying is I would just make sure that the provision of finance for companies, particularly with great growth prospects, allowed them to stay in the uk, keep the jobs in the uk, keep the tax revenues in the uk. But that's a sort of second order thing as far as I'm concerned. I mean there's a ton of stuff that you can, could do. I mean, you know, one of the things that is an absolute, you know, genuine the cost of capital of British companies is very high because nobody wants to list on the London Stock Exchange for a whole variety of different reasons. Again, there's a whole load of sort of technical little things that basically ministers think are deeply boring, but are absolutely, you know, and if you had this ruthless focus that basically says if it's not good for growth, don't do it, I actually think it would have an enormous, it would have a genuinely significant impact. And then I think yours felt like a very philosophical question which is basically, are you basically saying we don't need a Public sector. Because I wasn't quite clear what you were saying. I think you were saying quite a lot of what gets done that's good for people is by the private sector. And I think you were asking me what is the point of the public sector?
- [17:57]
Audience Member 1
I guess I'm kind of just curious, like, what is the short term point versus a long term point? And we have this whole crisis with immigration as well. But human beings, we like naturally also want novelty or we want to travel. And you're who?
- [18:15]
Robert Peston
I mean, I broadly take the view that, you know, we need thriving state schools, thriving health service, you know, thriving public transport. I don't think these things are optional. I think the issue for any government at the moment is are they efficient enough? One of the things that is a worry to me is not only the low productivity of many of these services, but also the collapse of confidence in really vital public services, like the collapse of confidence in the police that we've been going through. I mean, one of, you know, I sound like a, you know, a one theme person, but I mean, you know, one of the things that, for example, artificial intelligence can help with, undoubtedly is improving productivity is a terrible word. I don't just mean in a financial sense, outputs. I just mean the performance of so many of our public services. I mean, for example, one of the things that is quite worrying about, you know, crime detection and the police in this country is that we have, I don't know how many, you know, basically silos of information on bad people, but it's incredibly difficult for anybody trying to access, you know, information on a single individual across all these different silos. And artificial intelligence is something that can absolutely revolutionize that, so long as you can get over the, obviously the privacy concerns around that. But, you know, the potential in so many public services for improvement is really vast.
- [19:56]
Johnny Diamond
I'm going to take a live stream question, bearing in mind you said you didn't want to speculate about who was going to get what in the Cabinet. You're not going to have to look at the questions too. Get me out of a job. First question came from Stephen. Do you think Miller Band Ed. Presumably not David, will be Chancellor? If not, who will be?
- [20:15]
Robert Peston
I mean, I don't. I mean, the honest answer is, I don't know. There's an enormous amount of speculation that he is not now going to be Chancellor. But I genuinely, I mean, what I do know is what I'm told is that Andy Burnham has already decided who he wants in certain jobs that he is appointing on the basis of who he thinks is the right person for the job. And it's not favors. You know, there are various ministers who definitely did him a favor by telling Keir Starmer to go. You know, Ed Miliband was one of those. So there were lots of people who thought, well, Ed's bound to be Chancellor. I just don't know. I mean, you know, if, you know, Edmund Bound is what you might call a person who divides opinion. I was quite struck that somebody who one wouldn't think of as being a sort of raging lefty, a bloke called Nick McPherson, who was permanent Secretary of the treasury, said that he thought Miliband would be quite a good Chancellor because unlike most people in the Cabinet, he understands the Treasury. He worked there for many years and would show the kind of leadership that is needed. That was one view. Lots of trade union leaders hate him because they want the North Sea opened up, Royal and Gas, and Ed has been blocking, obviously, the exploitation of Rosebank and Jackdaw. And then obviously there are quite a lot of people in the City who hate him because they think that he would pay fast and loose with the public finances. So, you know, their opinions are divided and it'll be. You know, one of the things I said earlier is that of all the appointments that Burnham makes, that is the most important people who've been talked. I was told weeks ago that it would be Shabana Mahmood and then I was told it was not. Not going to be Shabbana Mahmoud. And then if you read all the speculation today, it is again, Shabana Mahmoud. Who knows? I mean, the only thing I would say about Shabbana, incredibly impressive politician, right? I have never heard her talk about the economy once. I mean, so it's a slight. Would be a slightly intriguing appointment. It may be that she's been reading up on it for the last 20 years and just kept it all secret. But she. She's a lawyer by training. We'll see.
- [22:50]
Johnny Diamond
I want to come to the audience
- [22:51]
Robert Peston
again in a moment.
- [22:52]
Johnny Diamond
We have just a few minutes left, but I've got a question here that caught my eye from the live stream. Thank you very much for all your questions that have come online. It's from Ed. Is it possible that the dominant narrative about Britain being broken is actually wrong? Is this not a comparatively wealthy, decent, energetic, entrepreneurial country, part of which is also quite good at football? Leave the football out for the moment. If you.
- [23:16]
Robert Peston
I don't think we're broken. I mean, sorry, of course I don't think we're Broken. Right. I think, you know, we are rich, we have incredible strengths, but we are going. But we have done ourselves quite a lot of harm. Right? I mean, it's no secret because I said this night after night, you know, during the Brexit referendum, I said on itv, if we leave the eu, we will be poorer. We have made ourselves poorer as a result of leaving the eu. The kind of hate that we see in political and social discourse is awful and doing us terrible damage. I mean, you know, I feel lots and lots of people will have disagreed with the views held by Ann Widdicombe about big public policy issues, but she was polite, respectful to anybody, whether they were opponent or supporter, and courteous. Right. And she was a sort of. I mean, we need. That's what we need back in our public life. And the fact that she may well have been. The police have raised this possibility, you know, murdered because of her political views, takes us to a. You know. Well, obviously we saw the murders of David Amos and Jo Cox, but I always had confidence that Britain would avoid the culture of violence that has been endemic in America long before Trump. We are a very different political, social culture from America, and I'm really fearful that we're heading in that direction. So, no, Britain is not broken, but there is an enormous onus on all of us, A, to stand up for decency, but also to say, not to sugarcoat or pretend that we do have problems. If we cannot give hope to people in poorer parts of the country that their lives and their children's lives are going to improve, then this fracturing of our society will get worse. So, no, we're not broken, but we have an opportunity to fix things and we haven't got long.
- [25:45]
Johnny Diamond
Right, last couple of questions from the audience. We've got a lady right at the front here and I've got a lady at the back there. Forgive me, sir, I'm going to hang on and then we'll come to you. We'll take a third there. So, lady here, lady there, gentleman here. Thank you very much. We'll do these quick, quick, quick. Thank you.
- [26:01]
Audience Member 1
So I just wanted some clarity on something. I got a bit mixed up when you were speaking, so you said that you anticipate that the new government that's going to come in is going to be very cautious, which makes sense, because when you look at the mini budget and basically everything that's happened in the past few years, Britain has kind of lost their confidence. But at the same time, you come back time and time again to this grand question of whether Burnham is going to be able to construct a narrative that restores British expectations of the growth plan. And so essentially my question is, how do you. Where do you know? What's the criteria for knowing? What is overreaching?
- [26:54]
Audience Member 2
Madam, Hello. I read your book and it seemed to me you had two issues about AI. One that you mentioned about being able to control it so it didn't run off in its own direction, and the other one seemed to. To be about the safeguarding of our data. Do you think it will be possible to safeguard our data, like NHS data or whatever, in the future? That it won't at some point be taken into for the greater good, but to be used by AI, and therefore may be sold or used by foreign power?
- [27:40]
Johnny Diamond
Okay, thank you very much. We can race the microphone just round to this gentleman here. Yes, that's right. Thank you very much, sir.
- [27:46]
Progressive Insurance Advertiser
Hi there.
- [27:47]
Robert Peston
Mine's just a quick opinion from you. Do you think we'll see another Prime Minister in this Labour tenure? Okay, right. I mean, the answer is, this is not in any sense a party political point, but I blooming well hope not, because we're an international bloody laughingstock, right? I mean, you know, what is it? Seven prime ministers since 2016. I mean, it's a joke, right? You need stable leadership, you need step. So I hope not. I mean, as it happens, a very senior member of the Cabinet said to
- [28:22]
Johnny Diamond
me
- [28:25]
Robert Peston
during some of the recent mayhem, just, you know, because I'm assuming this is what you fear, but senior member of the Cabinet said to me, you know, if Burnham comes in, we will have another leader before the next general election. But I don't know if this bloke is right, but it's interesting that he felt he had to say that to me on your question. Sorry, I probably wasn't clear precise enough. What I meant was, so we're going to get the Cabinet on Monday and then. I'm assuming not. I'm assuming I sort of know that Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, we will get a series of what you might call retail offerings of various sorts, probably to do with the cost of living and that kind of thing. That doesn't mean. That just means in the short term, I don't think we should expect him to come in and, you know, announce, you know, absolutely sort of sweeping, enormous things. But he and his people are promising, you know, genuinely significant changes, some of them which we've not talked about, like electoral reform or different kind of relationship with the eu. I don't, I'm afraid to say, have a grasp on his economic approach. I wish I did, but I don't really. Other than some of the things I've already talked to you about to do with things like devolution. I mean, he's got this. He keeps. They all. Everybody around Burnham keeps talking about how the biggest driver down of living standards has been. And there's some, you know, this is certainly, you know, an important contributor to the driving down and down has been significant increase in the cost of housing, whether it's rents or houses becoming unaffordable for young people, the rising cost of energy, rising cost of transport. And the mantra from them is he will somehow take control of all of this and drive down the costs. But that's all the details we've got. We don't know whether that means state ownership, we don't know whether it means different kinds of regulation, we don't know whether it means a mixture of the two. So these are quite ambitious ideas in principle, but they might turn out to be less ambitious in practice. We just don't know. I think that his ambition is, in the course of the next few months to lay out some big changes. Whether it might be things like electoral reform, might be big economic changes of various sorts. One of the things that's in my mind is whether he would be significantly constrained by that very cautious manifesto
- [31:12]
Audience Member 2
that
- [31:14]
Robert Peston
he's inherited from the last election and which he said he will stick to. So there is certainly a world in which, you know, he maps out a whole series of more ambitious plans. It would also be a world, if things went his way, in which the erosion of support for Farage and reform continued. And, you know, there have been some polls that already show that a Burnham led laborer is ahead of reform in the polls. We'll see whether that's sustained. I think it is possible that we would spend the next few months laying out how he would change Britain and then we'd have, I mean, whether you like it or not, another general election, possibly next spring.
- [32:02]
Johnny Diamond
But
- [32:05]
Robert Peston
that's what I would regard as a sort of reasonable scenario rather than a forecast at the moment. But I certainly wouldn't rule it out.
- [32:13]
Johnny Diamond
There was another question was about the safeguarding of data.
- [32:16]
Robert Peston
Oh, yeah, look, I mean, if you hit on, when it comes to AI, one of the things about data, you know, we own, I mean, this book actually, you know, early on, one of the issues, the Prime Minister gets murdered at the beginning of the book. And you know what, you know what one of the possible motives is that she was blocking the sale of unbelievably valuable NHS data to an AI company. And so there are, and we do have unbelievably valuable data. And I mean, I've got sort of a number of views about this. One is we should never, any of us jeopardize our personal data. And we've all got to be aware, you know, one of the things we've all been way too relaxed about is the way that our data has just been mined by digital companies for the last 15 years, right, for which we've got, you know, we might think we like the services we get from them, but, you know, we are creating trillionaires out of their exploitation of our data. And so one of the things, if you want to revive the public sector, you've got to be absolutely clear that the data that the public sector owns can't be given away. That's important. The privacy issue is also important. But the fundamental. But the other thing, though is if, like. So I was talking about this bloke, Demis Asabis, you know, he is, again, you know, he's a Nobel Prize winner, he's British. I mean, one of the things he talks about is how, as a result of some of the developments that he's doing, he's actually set up a sort of. He works for Alphabet Google, but he set up a side company that is massively involved in essentially understanding our diseases, our illnesses, and then coming up with revolutionary treatments and preventions. And he believes, and he says, if it were anybody else, you'd laugh, but he has a track record in this space. He says it is theoretically possible that within 10 to something years, pretty much all disease will be eliminated. Now, I suspect he's going some with that statement, but he's right that nonetheless, you know, for all the terrible dangers of AI, there are these amazing benefits, right? Amazing benefits. And again, the thing that, you know, I say almost just really infuriates me because both the amazingly good and the amazingly bad are there. This should be the stuff.
- [34:44]
Audience Member 2
Why?
- [34:45]
Robert Peston
That's what we should be talking about now, right? That is the stuff that should be exercising all our brains and those of our leaders.
- [34:53]
Johnny Diamond
Robert, we are going to have to leave it there. Thank you very much, Robert Peston. Thank you to everyone who's come out here as well. Ginny's Global Investors.
- [35:00]
Robert Peston
It's really kind of you all to come out tonight. I'm very, very grateful and thank you, Jonny, you were brilliant as always.
- [35:06]
Mia Sorrenti
Thanks for listening to Intelligence Squared. This episode was created in partnership with Guinness Global Investors. It was produced by Margarita Volpatto and it was edited by Mark Roberts. For information on Guinness, just head to guinnessgi.com or see the link in the episode description. If you'd like ad free episodes and full length recordings, you can become a member@intelligencesquared.com membership and if you'd like to join us at future live events, you can find our full program or buy tickets over@intelligencesquared.com attend. You've been listening to Intelligence Squared. Thanks for joining us.