Annie Elise (2:02)

I often ask myself now, did I know the true Rian at all?

Dr. Leslie (2:08)

Listen to Hot agent of chaos on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Oh, hey, you're here. Welcome back to intentionally disturbing. This week, I get to speak with Annie Elise. This is actually not a new interview, but we recorded this as my first ever podcast episode. We actually recorded it in order to use it to pitch the show so that someone would pick it up. And Annie was nice enough to be my trial run, but it turned into one of my favorite episodes because Annie is an extremely successful true crime podcaster. She was actually in fashion and then decided that this was her passion and she went for it. But what we discuss is actually something extremely disturbing that happened to her in her own life. So as a professional woman, my plan going forward with this podcast is to have more people like Annie on the Show. Annie is smart, professional success, successful. She is a take no kind of woman like me. You'll be seeing a lot more guests like this in the future. I hope you enjoy this blast from the past episode for the first time on iheartradio. Oh, hey, you're here. My name is Dr. Leslie. I'm a forensic psychologist, and I have spent over 20 years working with psychopaths, serial killers, pedophiles, you name it. And what that has done to me has given me a low barometer for bullshit. So when I interview somebody, I want to get straight to it. I want to hear their quirks, their darkness, and their disturbing thoughts. This podcast is called Intentionally Disturbing, and I'm really excited to introduce our guest, Annie Elise. Annie has a YouTube called Tend to Life and a podcast, which I'm going to struggle saying, seriously, everybody, Serialistically serial.

Annie Elise (4:24)

Yes.

Dr. Leslie (4:25)

Where Annie talks about murder, true crime, and absolutely horrible, dark, dark things. So what I'm really excited about is that Annie's never been interviewed before about her life. Not these stories or these cases. And so I'm hoping what we can do in this conversation is show a part of you that no one has seen, but also that deep, dark side I know that's hiding in there.

Annie Elise (4:49)

Great.

Dr. Leslie (4:50)

Can't wait, I guess. Let's start with, like, how you came to California. I don't even know how you got here.

Annie Elise (4:57)

Who are you? Where are you from?

Dr. Leslie (4:59)

So. Because you reached out on Instagram, Right? And then I got to do your show.

Annie Elise (5:03)

Yeah.

Dr. Leslie (5:04)

And then I just adore you.

Annie Elise (5:05)

Thanks.

Dr. Leslie (5:05)

And then we go to crimecon. I know, but how did you get to California?

Annie Elise (5:09)

Well, I was born in California. Okay, So I was born in California in 1987 in Newport Beach.

Dr. Leslie (5:15)

Oh, my God. I'm so old.

Annie Elise (5:16)

Four years. No. I was born and raised in Orange county, and then I moved to New York in 2015 because I was in the fashion industry.

Dr. Leslie (5:23)

What were you doing?

Annie Elise (5:24)

Trend forecasting.

Dr. Leslie (5:25)

Okay.

Annie Elise (5:26)

So I worked with, like, all the buyers for different department stores, different boutiques, things like that. And I would basically research and tell them what the trends were going to be in two or three years from now, and then they would know how to buy their assortment for the masses. So, like, everything you see in Nordstrom or whatever right now is something we would have worked on two years ago with the buying team.

Dr. Leslie (5:44)

I feel so manipulated.

Annie Elise (5:45)

It is very. It is so manipulative. And now I don't even enjoy shopping because it's like, it's. It was work.

Dr. Leslie (5:52)

I just. Whatever pops up on, like, the front page of Nordstrom.

Annie Elise (5:56)

I just buy that's because you are what we like to call an easy target. Like you are easily influenced. I love people like, you know. So that's what I did for Gosh. I was in. I was in the fashion industry for 15 years about.

Dr. Leslie (6:11)

Oh my God.

Annie Elise (6:12)

So that's why I moved to New York. And then I was doing that in New York and loved it. And then Covid hit. Everything was obviously put on pause. So then I just had a lot of time at the house. We need more space. We were living on top of each other during COVID because you're not going to the office. You're just in a tiny New York apartment in Brooklyn. And then so we decided to move back to California. So then I moved back in end of 2021. End of 2020.

Dr. Leslie (6:37)

And then of course, you focus your life on murder.

Annie Elise (6:40)

Yeah, that started still in New York.

Dr. Leslie (6:42)

Oh, it did?

Annie Elise (6:43)

Yeah.

Dr. Leslie (6:44)

Wait, can I ask you, is, is BTK your favorite killer?

Annie Elise (6:48)

I don't have a favorite killer.

Dr. Leslie (6:50)

Because he made clothing.

Annie Elise (6:53)

No, no.

Dr. Leslie (6:54)

Out of people's.

Annie Elise (6:55)

I am fascinated with him for definitely other reasons. Not that, no.

Dr. Leslie (6:59)

Well, he made furniture too.

Annie Elise (7:00)

Yeah, yeah. No, but I am fascinated with him. No, I don't think I have a favorite. The person that got me into true crime, I would say is Casey Anthony. I've always been fascinate true crime since I was younger. And like I've watched Dateline, 60 Minutes, all the things, but I remember vividly still exactly where I was when that verdict was read. I was like on a vacation, sitting in front of the tube tv, like old school tv, watching it all go down. And I remember just feeling like this deep rooted feeling of rage and just like unjust. And I remember that's just been the case that always stuck with me. And then when I started getting into true crime, years and years and years later, I would say that was probably one of the cases that was like what spearheaded me being like. There's a lot of cases that feel like they weren't handled properly or that need more awareness. So I'm gonna start talking about them. So that's what I did. I just started going on tick tock. It's like strictly a hobby. Never any intention to monetize anything, to do anything as a career. Nothing like that. I didn't even know that there were true crime creators out there at the time. So I just started talking about these cases and within a couple weeks it was like over 250,000 followers. They were asking for like Longer case deep dives. They wanted to know more information. So I was like, okay, well, where can I upload longer cases? My mind, I go to YouTube because I'm old and I'm like, that's where I watch music videos and like Britney Spears videos from the 90s and all of these things. And so poor Britney. So, yeah, so I started doing like 10 minute case recaps, uploading them to YouTube, hence the channel name 10 to Life. It was like a play on a sentence. But 10 minutes, that kind of just started spiraling. People wanted longer deep dives, factories opened back up. I was juggling the full time job, still doing all of that, and then did that for about two years and then it just kind of skyrocketed. And so September 2022, I quit and I decided to pursue content full time. You took a huge risk for me. I had this senior executive position in this company, which I cannot name, but like a very well known, established billion dollar company and had the benefits, had the great salary, all of these things. So then to walk away from that and go into this space that not only is unknown, but also could go away at any given moment, it was definitely scary. Especially with two kids at that point.

Dr. Leslie (9:12)

Yes. So what was the driving force?

Annie Elise (9:15)

I just really had a passion for it, honestly. And that sounds so cliche and lame, but I felt like what I was doing was impacting a lot of people at that point. I was having a lot of victims, families reach out to me, thanking me for the awareness, for the coverage, for things like that, wanting their case heard because nobody was covering it. And I just felt like this tug in me that that's what I wanted to be doing. It's something I've been fascinated with my whole life and been interested in. And so it didn't sound like the right decision.

Dr. Leslie (9:40)

You listened to yourself.

Annie Elise (9:42)

I did.

Dr. Leslie (9:43)

Okay, So I want to ask you about the car accident that you had talked about.

Annie Elise (9:48)

Okay.

Dr. Leslie (9:49)

Because I. I find this really interesting. I want to hear more about it because, yeah, I had very life threatening surgeries. You did? When I was about 20 and I signed away my organs.

Annie Elise (10:01)

Oh my gosh.

Dr. Leslie (10:02)

My parents were like. We said goodbye.

Annie Elise (10:03)

Wait, what?

Dr. Leslie (10:04)

Yeah.

Annie Elise (10:05)

What was the surgery for? What?

Dr. Leslie (10:06)

I had a. I had a nicked bowel from a cyst and it was all these errors. I had it in London and then I had it in California because it grew back. It was like tumor. I was in a coma and I had a colostomy for a while. Holy shit. And I was so septic. They had all the medical students holding my organs, trying to figure out where the perforations were.

Annie Elise (10:26)

And you were 20?

Dr. Leslie (10:27)

I was 20, yeah.

Annie Elise (10:28)

Wow.

Dr. Leslie (10:28)

And then I went back to school with staples in my stomach to Colorado. But, you know, this, like, you know, the feeling of literally life or death, like, understanding the pain of the tragedy and the fucking trauma.

Annie Elise (10:45)

Yeah. Well, now, as a parent, and I'm sure you can relate, like, looking back, you think of, like, what your parents were experiencing in those moments, like, seeing their kid go through that, and it's heartbreaking. Yeah. So I was 16, 15, about to turn 16. Yeah. Because then I turned 16. I couldn't get my license because of all the seizures. But I was at my friend's house, and we were. She had driving school that day, so her older sister was like, hey, Annie, come with us. We'll drop her off at, like, Drive It Driver's ed or whatever it is. We'll go get breakfast and then we'll pick her up and you guys can, like, have the day. I was like, cool. It was like, nine in the morning, and so I don't know why I did this. Like, I was young, I was stupid. But, like, I was still tired that morning. I think we went out the night before, and so I was, like, laying down in the back seat of the car and didn't have my seatbelt on. And I was like, oh, just like, wake me up when we get there. I'll come to the front seat and then we'll go get breakfast or get pancakes. Ashley, the driver, there was, like, a turn in the road, and she didn't have her seatbelt on, so she was turning to go put her seatbelt on. And then as the turn was going, instead of hitting the brake, she hit the gas. And so she jumped the curb, hit a light pole. The light pole came down on us. I was in the backseat like a sedan windshield and went into the front. And when the ambulances came, because the car was so crushed by the light pole, they brought body bags out, thinking that it was going to be fatalities all the way around, which we all survived, thank God. I blacked out. I don't really remember anything. The first thing I remember is being pulled from the dashboard to the backseat by a paramedic. I'm assuming it was a paramedic. And they were, like, cutting my clothing off in the backseat. I remember. I, like, my mouth was full of something. I had knocked out my teeth. And not all of them, but, like, two of them on the bottom. So they rush us to the Hospital, they're asking me all these questions in the ambulance of like, where do you live? We want to contact your parents. That was before cell phones, really, anything like that. So it took them a very long time to what felt like forever, to find my mom and get in touch with her. She, of course, then rushes to the emergency room. They show me a mirror, which was like the scariest thing I've ever seen because I was so swollen. I was bruised, I was like black and blue, missing teeth, like, horrible. But we still didn't know that anything was like, wrong internally at that point. So they end up taking me home. I like, I'm recovering and I go for a follow up appointment with my pediatrician because I saw a pediatrician at the time.

Dr. Leslie (13:00)

Yeah. And 16, 15, 15. Oh, my God.

Annie Elise (13:04)

So she's like just doing these, like, normal tests, like, look up, look down. And I start sniffling a lot. And she's like. I was like. She's like, have you been sniffling a lot lately? I was like, I think I have a cold. Like at this point, it had been like a week and a half or something. Something must have raised alarm bells with her, which I don't even know how, but she's like, I want you to go to chalk hospital right now and I want you to get this fluid that's coming out of your nose tested.

Dr. Leslie (13:27)

It was cerebral fluid. Holy shit.

Annie Elise (13:29)

Yeah. And so I go to chalk that night again. I don't really understand the severity of it. My mom is, and she's, I think, trying to calm me down and like, not tell me how serious it is. So we go into the emergency room and they put these, like, cotton pledges all the way up, like through my nose into, like, my forehead almost to where then, like, they're attached to threads and they like taped the threads on the side of my face so I looked like I had, like, whiskers. It was like. But they had to, like, put those in there because then they gave me a spinal tap. And in that had like a D. A colored dye. And basically the thought process was. And again, I don't know the medical term, but once they removed those the following day or two days later, if there was dye on the pledges, then I had openings and that's how the fluid was escaping. So they removed them. It tests positive for that. And so that was on a Friday. And they said that Monday I had to have emergency brain surgery. And so we went into St. Joe's and chalk that Monday. Shaved the head, not the whole head, but to about here. Shaved my head, opened me from ear to ear, pulled everything down with my face, patched all of this, pulled me back up, sewed me and stapled me shut. And going to high school with a half shaved head with, like, went back to school. I will after. It took me quite a while to recover from the surgery itself. But then eventually I had to go back because I had to complete my year. And that's when I turned 16. I couldn't get my driver's license because I had had seizures in the hospital. And I had. Was now on medication for that. I was on Dilantin. And so they're like, you can't get your driver's license. So I had to wait for that. But when I went back to school, it was like, my head was half shaved. I had, like, this gnarly ass incision that was, like, horrifying to look at. And the people at the school, the administration said, you can't. You have to cover that because it's distracting. And, like, so I'd wear, like, bandanas and beanies. And it was like springtime, summertime in California. And, like, I remember one day being in class and, like, my head was itching because of, like, the beanie. My hair trying to grow back, all these things. I was like, it. And I, like, just ripped it off. And then I got in trouble and got sent to the office. Yeah. And I'm like, you motherfuckers. Like. But yeah, it was. It was rough.

Dr. Leslie (15:37)

Okay. Holy shit.

Annie Elise (15:39)

That was a long story. Sorry.

Dr. Leslie (15:40)

No, but I can recognize it, because when people ask for my story about the colostomy, I can just tell it.

Annie Elise (15:47)

Yeah.

Dr. Leslie (15:48)

And they feel the impact. I don't feel the impact anymore. But I'm always wondering, like, where did the impact go? Because it's somewhere in us.

Annie Elise (15:56)

I don't know. It's probably somewhere compartmentalized with the rest of my shit. I think I'm just, like, numb, like, everywhere. I don't know. Like. I don't know.

Dr. Leslie (16:03)

You're not numb.

Annie Elise (16:04)

I don't know. Well, I guess not. I cried on stage, right? Yeah.

Dr. Leslie (16:08)

I find you to be very poised.

Annie Elise (16:10)

Thank you.

Dr. Leslie (16:11)

And professional.

Annie Elise (16:12)

I like that word. Let's go with that. Thank you.

Dr. Leslie (16:14)

And graceful.

Annie Elise (16:15)

Thank you. I love all of that. Just keep talking.

Dr. Leslie (16:17)

I mean, I think it's amazing, though, because what you talk about is, like, heavy, heavy stuff.

Annie Elise (16:23)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe that's my outlet. Talking about other people's lives like these, like, not, like, the victims, but, like, the perpetrators and, like, how awful they are. And maybe that makes me feel better. I don't know.

Dr. Leslie (16:36)

I can see that.

Annie Elise (16:38)

Maybe I'm just. I just made it up. So I don't know if it's true or not.

Dr. Leslie (16:41)

I can see that. Okay. I probably do that too.

Annie Elise (16:44)

Yeah.

Dr. Leslie (16:45)

Like living the emotions out in other people's stories. Yeah, I know.

Annie Elise (16:50)

I don't know.

Dr. Leslie (16:51)

Okay. Do you ever have any dark or disturbing thoughts?

Annie Elise (16:55)

Yeah, all the time.

Dr. Leslie (16:55)

Oh, my God. Tell me something.

Annie Elise (16:57)

Yeah, I mean, I. I just. I had like a really rough couple relationships when I was younger. My first experience with anything. I lost my virginity when I was 17 to a 27 year old. And I thought it was totally normal. Now I realize it was not normal.

Dr. Leslie (17:13)

These are like the legal, legal cases I take on.

Annie Elise (17:15)

Yeah, yeah. My dad, when he found out, he wanted to call the police and I like, of course begged him. I'm like, please don't, please don't, please don't. Then I like romanticized the idea of like, oh, I'll end up with the guy I lost my virginity to. So then like years later when I was 23, we like rekindled something and I realized again how toxic that was because he wanted ultimate control over me. He didn't even want me working. It was just like.

Dr. Leslie (17:37)

How did he get to you when you were 17?

Annie Elise (17:39)

I was in cosmetology school and so was he. Which, hello, that should have been like a red flag number one. Yeah, like, and he like introduced me to drugs. And when I, when I was 17, like drinking all of these things.

Dr. Leslie (17:52)

What kind of drugs?

Annie Elise (17:53)

Coke. And like, I didn't do it all the time, but like, enough with him to where it just became a bad dynamic. Like it was just a very unhealthy relationship.

Dr. Leslie (18:02)

And so a 27 year old is giving coke to a 17 year old taking your virginity, man, he was, he was manipulating you.

Annie Elise (18:11)

Yeah, it was very bad.

Dr. Leslie (18:13)

So how did it end?

Annie Elise (18:15)

Well, he was like having sex with everybody else at the time too. And like, I was just like an idiot. And like, obviously, like he was gaslighting me. I hate that word. But that's really what was happening.

Dr. Leslie (18:25)

Yeah.

Annie Elise (18:26)

And I forget how it ended. I think it just kind of fizzled out after a while. And then I jumped into another relationship which was not only equally unhealthy, probably worse. And he was, I was a little bit older at this point. I was 19, he was 26. Still a little too old, in my opinion, to be with a 19 year old, but I was an adult. But he was like a whole different Level of toxic and abusive and not good. And I just kind of had this pattern of going to like, unhealthy relationship, unhealthy relationship. And then finally I started to just like move away from that. And I think that's probably a reason why I talk about a lot of the things I talk about too. Because I feel like if I could tell my younger self a lot of things and like things to look out for. I wish I could.

Dr. Leslie (19:13)

You know, I wonder if it is linked to the accident and the trauma.

Annie Elise (19:18)

Maybe. Maybe it's like a healing because mechanism.

Dr. Leslie (19:21)

So quick, so quick after, like. I wonder. I'm curious about the link.

Annie Elise (19:27)

I definitely think it could have stemmed from that in my mind and I don't know clinically like how all of that works. You would know better than me. I feel like my interest in true crime may have stemmed from that, but I also think like my passion for it and my reason for talking about cases, some of the cases I should say that I do is more of like my past relationship history that has affected me and that I wish like, I could talk to myself, that version of myself or like educate and warn other people. And not that that. Not that I was ever murdered or like attempted to be killed. Not quite, but like, I don't know, I just feel like awareness in general about sensitive topics. Like that is why I'm drawn to true crime, if that makes sense. If there's like a link there, maybe. Yeah.

Dr. Leslie (20:11)

And then you marry someone younger.

Annie Elise (20:14)

Younger, which. How did that happen? I know I've always dated older, either healthy or not, but older. And married somebody younger.

Dr. Leslie (20:24)

Yeah. When did you get married?

Annie Elise (20:26)

2017.

Dr. Leslie (20:27)

Okay. Did you have like a big wedding?

Annie Elise (20:28)

It was pretty big. There were like 200 people. It was in like the San Diego area.

Dr. Leslie (20:32)

Okay.

Annie Elise (20:32)

And we were the first ones in our families to get married. So a lot of it, I think, like a lot of the stuff that was involved wasn't for us or like by our choice as much as it was to like make the family happy. So like a lot of their friends invited rather than our, like, things like that. But it was great. It was a beautiful wedding.

Dr. Leslie (20:51)

We eloped.

Annie Elise (20:53)

That's smart.

Dr. Leslie (20:53)

We didn't tell anyone we went to Kauai.

Annie Elise (20:55)

So if I were doing it over again, I think I would either do like something like that where we would elope or it'd be a much smaller wedding where it's like it's destination, 20 people are invited, come or don't, and like that's it.

Dr. Leslie (21:08)

Yeah. My issue was that it became so much more about everyone who was invited.

Annie Elise (21:12)

Exactly.

Dr. Leslie (21:13)

Us.

Annie Elise (21:13)

Yeah. And it goes by like that to where it's like you don't even know why you're doing this.

Dr. Leslie (21:18)

And it's so expensive.

Annie Elise (21:20)

So expensive.

Dr. Leslie (21:21)

Like, looking back at how much quoting. I mean, how much was yours? Oh, should I not ask?

Annie Elise (21:28)

I mean, I. I don't remember exact amount. My dad, fortunately helped out quite a bit, but it was definitely, like, up there. I mean, it was. It was under six figures, but it was up there.

Dr. Leslie (21:39)

Mine was $300.

Annie Elise (21:40)

See? Yeah, I like that. I am way more on board with that.

Dr. Leslie (21:44)

But we had the awkwardness of the night before going for a walk and me being like, I'm not sure I want to marry you, but I don't have anyone else else to talk to.

Annie Elise (21:51)

Wait, what?

Dr. Leslie (21:52)

Like, you know, I got cold feet.

Annie Elise (21:55)

Oh, see, I didn't have cold feet.

Dr. Leslie (21:56)

I had total cold. And I was like, wes, that since there's nobody else here and I'm not going to talk to a waiter, I'm just going to tell you I don't know if I want to marry you anymore. And he was like, well, I feel the same way. We can just get divorced.

Annie Elise (22:06)

Oh, that's fair.

Dr. Leslie (22:07)

Yeah. And so we got married, and then it's been like 15 years or something. I still really like him.

Annie Elise (22:11)

That. I mean, I think that's great. You could always do a post snap if you need. Yeah, who cares? Sometimes it just works out.

Dr. Leslie (22:18)

Yeah.

Annie Elise (22:18)

And like you said, there's always divorce.

Dr. Leslie (22:20)

There's always divorce.

Annie Elise (22:21)

There's always divorce. Don't murder somebody, just divorce them.

Dr. Leslie (22:25)

We're gonna take a quick break and we'll be right back.

Enrique Santos (22:29)

In 2012, 16 year old Brian Herrera was gunned down in broad daylight on his way to do homework. No suspects, no witnesses, no justice.

Dr. Leslie (22:40)

The call was horrible. I replayed over my head all the time.

Enrique Santos (22:44)

For years, Brian's family kept asking questions, while a culture of silence kept the case cold.

Dr. Leslie (22:50)

Snitches get stitches. Everybody knows it.

Enrique Santos (22:54)

Still, they refused to give up.

Dr. Leslie (22:56)

I would ask my husband, do you want me just let this go? He said, no, keep fighting. I told her I would never give.

Enrique Santos (23:02)

Up on this case. And then, after a decade of waiting, a breakthrough.

Dr. Leslie (23:06)

We received a phone call that was bittersweet, because it's a call that we've been waiting for for a very long time.

Enrique Santos (23:12)

I'm Enrique Santos. This is Cold Case Files Miami, a podcast about justice, persistence, and the families who never stopped fighting. Listen to Cold Case Files Miami as part of The My Kultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Dr. Leslie (23:31)

Jan Marsalek was a model of German corporate success.

Annie Elise (23:35)

It seemed so damn simple for him.

Dr. Leslie (23:38)

Also, it turned out, a fraudster. Where does the money come from? That was something that I always was questioning myself. But what if I told you that was the least interesting thing about him? His secret office was less than 500 meters down the road.

Annie Elise (23:53)

I often ask myself now, did I know the true Rian at all? Certain things in my life since then have gone terribly wrong. I don't know if they followed me to my home.

Dr. Leslie (24:05)

It looks like the ingredients of a really grand spy story because this ties together the Cold war with the new one. Listen to hot agent of chaos on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Enrique Santos (24:28)

From. Iheart Podcasts. Before social media, before the Internet, before cable news, there was Alan Berg.

Annie Elise (24:36)

You dig what I do. You have a need. Unfortunately, you have no sense of humor. That's why you can't ever enjoy this show, and that's why you're a loser.

Enrique Santos (24:43)

He was the first and the original shock jock.

Dr. Leslie (24:46)

That scratchy, irreverent kind of way of talking to people.

Annie Elise (24:50)

You're as dumb as the rest. That's. I can't take anyone. I don't agree with you all the time. I don't want you to. I hope that you pick me apart.

Enrique Santos (24:56)

His voice changed media. His death shocked the nation.

Dr. Leslie (25:00)

And it makes me so angry that.

Annie Elise (25:02)

He got himself killed because he had a big mouth. KOA morning talk show host Alan Berg reportedly was shot and killed tonight in downtown Denver. He pointed to the Denver phone book.

Dr. Leslie (25:12)

And said, well, There are probably 2 million suspects. This guy aggravated everybody.

Enrique Santos (25:17)

From iheart podcasts, this is Live Wire, the loud life and shocking murder of Alan Berg. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

Unknown Host (25:29)

Maybe you've heard that Stonewall was a riot where queer people fought back against police, or that it's the reason pride is celebrated this time of year.

Annie Elise (25:38)

It was one of the most liberating things that I have ever done.

Unknown Host (25:41)

But did you know that before it went down in history, the Stonewall was a queer hangout run by the mafia.

Annie Elise (25:48)

The voguing at Stonewall was unbelievable.

Unknown Host (25:51)

In the summer of 1969, it became the site that set off the modern movement for LGBTQ rights.

Dr. Leslie (25:59)

Start banging on the door of the Stonewall like one.

Annie Elise (26:02)

Boom, boom, boom.

Unknown Host (26:04)

Legend says Marsha P Johnson, a mother in the fight for trans rights, threw the very first brick. She was really, like, scrubbed out of that history. This week on Afterlives, we'll separate the truth from the myth in the life of Marsha P. Johnson. Listen to afterlives on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Dr. Leslie (26:27)

Oh, I had a really good question for you.

Annie Elise (26:29)

Okay, hit me.

Dr. Leslie (26:30)

Marry, fuck, kill. Who would you marry? Fuck or kill?

Annie Elise (26:33)

Okay. Fuck.

Dr. Leslie (26:34)

Okay, here are your options.

Annie Elise (26:36)

Okay.

Dr. Leslie (26:36)

Drew Peterson.

Annie Elise (26:38)

Okay.

Dr. Leslie (26:39)

Chris Watts.

Annie Elise (26:40)

Okay.

Dr. Leslie (26:40)

Jodi Arias.

Annie Elise (26:42)

Okay, first of all, I am beyond annoyed right now. Kill, kill, kill. Let me think. Okay.

Dr. Leslie (26:50)

Jodi Arias killed her boyfriend, stabbed him 27 times. His head was kind of hanging off. And then shot him in the head, took pictures of him, and then chucked him accidentally. Accidentally. And then chucked it in the washer.

Annie Elise (27:00)

Yep.

Dr. Leslie (27:01)

Yep. Chris Watts murdered his two young children and his wife and stuffed their bodies in. Was it an oil tank? And what I heard from you was that it was an 8 inch opening that he had to stuff the kids in.

Annie Elise (27:17)

He buried Shanann in the shallow grave, and then he stuffed his two daughters in an 8 inch Diane diameter opening of an oil tank.

Dr. Leslie (27:23)

Yeah. So one of the most gruesome crimes I've ever heard. And Shannon was pregnant and Shannan was pregnant, so three children.

Annie Elise (27:28)

Yeah.

Dr. Leslie (27:29)

Andrew Peterson was not successful with winning a date with Drew, one of our most notorious narcissistic killers, killing his wives. One is still missing and just absolutely in love with himself. Loves himself and a police officer.

Annie Elise (27:47)

Mary.

Dr. Leslie (27:47)

Kill.

Annie Elise (27:48)

Let me think. There's no way in hell I could ever Drew Peterson. So I. It's got to be something else. And I don't want to marry him because he kills all his wives. So let's put him on the kill list. Okay. Although I would like to kill Chris Watts because of what he did. But okay, let's think. Jodi Arias. I'd marry her because I feel like she would, like, paint me some nice pictures, sing me some songs. Like, she would take care of me. She'd cook for me. I just would never betray her because then she would kill me. So I'd marry her.

Dr. Leslie (28:18)

Right. And you, I mean, you'd watch for knives because she stabbed him 27 times and then decapitated him and then shot him in the head.

Annie Elise (28:24)

She wouldn't be allowed in the kitchen.

Dr. Leslie (28:25)

Or the laundry room or the bathroom.

Annie Elise (28:27)

Yeah, anywhere.

Dr. Leslie (28:28)

Okay, well, she's life in prison. Actually, that would be a good marriage because she's life in prison.

Annie Elise (28:31)

Oh, yeah. Okay.

Dr. Leslie (28:32)

Okay.

Annie Elise (28:33)

But then that leaves me fucking Chris Watts, and I don't know how I feel about that to.

Dr. Leslie (28:37)

So you'd rather kill Drew Peterson over Chris Watts?

Annie Elise (28:42)

Because I just. Because I can't ever imagine having sex with Drew Peterson. Not that I can imagine having sex with Chris Watts, but, like, I don't.

Dr. Leslie (28:50)

Know if, like, if I could kill Chris Watts, I think I'd take one for the team and do Drew.

Annie Elise (28:54)

That's a good way of looking at it.

Dr. Leslie (28:56)

Yeah.

Annie Elise (28:57)

Okay, I'm gonna read you my answer.

Dr. Leslie (28:58)

Okay.

Annie Elise (28:59)

And then I would marry Drew Peterson because he's in prison for the rest of his life anyway, so I never have to see his face. And I would just fuck Jodi Arias and. Okay. Little girl on girl action. That's fine.

Dr. Leslie (29:08)

Okay. Yeah, I mean, something exciting I'm sure she gets. What are they called, those visits?

Annie Elise (29:13)

Conjugal.

Dr. Leslie (29:14)

Conjugal visits.

Annie Elise (29:14)

Yeah.

Dr. Leslie (29:15)

That's great. She's probably got lineup.

Annie Elise (29:17)

Worst question. Because now I want to change my answers, like, four different times, so can we never play that game again?

Dr. Leslie (29:21)

Yeah, Okay. I want to hear, like, funny stories about the kids.

Annie Elise (29:25)

About the kids?

Dr. Leslie (29:26)

Yeah. Well, okay, maybe like, about flying with the kids.

Annie Elise (29:31)

Well, I refuse to fly with my children. Now I've done it, and I will never make that mistake again. Absolutely not. My son is finally a normal human being. But my daughter, we literally gave her the nickname Baby Dinosaur because she is just chaotic. I will never fly with them.

Dr. Leslie (29:47)

It's horrible.

Annie Elise (29:47)

It's excruciating.

Dr. Leslie (29:50)

Do you feel like if the nanny sits in the back of the plane and you're in first class with your husband, that that's wrong?

Annie Elise (29:57)

Well, so when I flew, I didn't have a nanny, and I was in.

Dr. Leslie (30:00)

Coach, so I want to be when.

Annie Elise (30:03)

I grow up, but I feel like that would be more pleasant. Yes.

Dr. Leslie (30:06)

I think so. Right? But.

Annie Elise (30:07)

No, but. No, but I'm such a crazy person that if the baby's crying in the back, whether they're with the nanny, the grandparents, whoever you're in that situation with, I would still, like, you know that, like, innate, like, pit in your stomach, you get to where it's like. Not that you feel like you're called because you want to sue them, you want to be a great mother, but you're like, I need to get this kid to just, like, quiet the fuck down. And, like, that's. I wouldn't be able to even relax. Even if I was. Even if I was on a private jet adjacent to them in the sky, I wouldn't be able to relax. Yeah. So I now I just don't do it.

Dr. Leslie (30:36)

I love this dance.

Annie Elise (30:38)

I just won't. I won't. My son is finally, like, normal now, so he would be fine. He's five. Or he's gonna be five on Saturday, so he'll be normal. But, like, Emmy. No way.

Dr. Leslie (30:46)

It's too much.

Annie Elise (30:47)

It's way too much. And she has got an attitude on her now.

Dr. Leslie (30:50)

One of my last flights, my son shit his pants and, like, full blowout, you know? But he's too tall for the changing tables on the airplane, right?

Annie Elise (30:58)

Because they're for, like, down and dirty in it.

Dr. Leslie (31:00)

Well, so I was trying to distract him until we landed, but so I gave him a really big, like, king size Kit Kat bar. So then he was covered in chocolate. So I clean up.

Annie Elise (31:09)

Why you would do that? I honestly don't know.

Dr. Leslie (31:11)

It's just all melt, right? I didn't really think it through because I was, like, having a panic attack.

Annie Elise (31:15)

Give him your phone.

Dr. Leslie (31:17)

He was. He didn't want it.

Annie Elise (31:18)

He wanted, like.

Dr. Leslie (31:18)

He knew there was chocolate. So I cleaned up all the chocolate. But by then, like, the airplane stunk like, shit.

Annie Elise (31:24)

Well. And, like, what's the difference? You see shit and chocolate, it's all the same.

Dr. Leslie (31:27)

Exactly. So he started throwing the wipes at people. Oh, God. And they immediately were like, this is shit on me.

Annie Elise (31:35)

That's horrible.

Dr. Leslie (31:36)

We had to go around and, like, get the wipes and be like, I'm sorry. It's not. It's a Kit Kat bar. Although it smells like.

Annie Elise (31:43)

That is horrible.

Dr. Leslie (31:44)

That was the last time I flew with them.

Annie Elise (31:45)

For what airline were you on? I'm just curious.

Dr. Leslie (31:47)

I think it was America.

Annie Elise (31:48)

I was gonna say Frontier. No, I'm just kidding. That would have made the experience way worse.

Dr. Leslie (31:53)

I don't know that doctors play spirit. No.

Annie Elise (31:55)

Yeah. Fair. Fair. Sorry.

Dr. Leslie (31:59)

What's something just horrendous that they've done?

Annie Elise (32:04)

Let me think. Theo is actually an angel. He's like. And I know every mom says that, but he is. He's like the smartest little angel. He does. He's five years old. He's been doing division since he's three years old and multiplication. Like, he's like, literally a little genius. So he's very well behaved. He's great. Emmy is not. We have nicknames for her. If she's being cute that day, we call her Emmy Lou. If she's being a beast, we call her Emmy Sue. And she's more times than not, Emmy Sue.

Dr. Leslie (32:33)

Well, you showed me that picture of her, like, gnawing, on a chicken nugget.

Annie Elise (32:36)

Oh, this girl, she was, like, got appetite like nobody's business. Like, she looks like she is just out and belongs with, like, the Hills have Eyes people. But no, she. I mean, she's cute and sweet, but she's just, like, a beast and chaotic. And both kids sleep in bed with us. They refuse to sleep in their own beds. We also have our dog who sleeps in our bed. And you know how it is. It's just chaos.

Dr. Leslie (32:58)

Yeah.

Annie Elise (32:58)

Like, you're never having an easy day.

Dr. Leslie (33:01)

Yeah.

Annie Elise (33:02)

Yeah.

Dr. Leslie (33:02)

How do you unwind?

Annie Elise (33:04)

Wine.

Dr. Leslie (33:06)

Me, too.

Annie Elise (33:06)

What kind of wine? Wine and reality tv.

Dr. Leslie (33:09)

Yes.

Annie Elise (33:09)

Yeah.

Dr. Leslie (33:10)

What's your favorite wine and show? What's the best combo?

Annie Elise (33:12)

Anything on? Not anything on Bravo. If I'm watching Bravo, it has to be like, Vanderpump or right now, the Valley. But right now, I'm on a very big kick. Love island is about to start, so. Love Island. And I like that because it's, like, new episodes every single day. So it's like, get my red wine. Get my trash food that I'm gonna order, and let me just, like, don't talk to me, ignore me. Just pretend I'm deceased. Yeah.

Dr. Leslie (33:34)

Vanderpump is very good.

Annie Elise (33:35)

It's very good. It's kind of gotten boring the last two seasons, but it's still very good.

Dr. Leslie (33:39)

I mean, Ariana, I think, is a rock star, but also, it's crazy how she has.

Annie Elise (33:45)

Well, she's now the new host of Love Island.

Dr. Leslie (33:47)

Yes. It's pretty amazing what has happened.

Annie Elise (33:49)

I know. She came out on top for sure.

Dr. Leslie (33:52)

So there's an actual scientific study that says that the dumber the TV show, the better to calm down a female brain. Great. Because we have overactive brains.

Annie Elise (34:01)

That makes me feel way better. It used to be Dateline that I would watch to unwind, but now I'm like, I'm living this all day long. I need something else. So now it's trash tv.

Dr. Leslie (34:09)

So Bravo is scientifically a healthy coping skill for a woman.

Annie Elise (34:12)

Can we get that printed on, like, a bumper sticker? Honestly, I'll find the article. I just feel like more people need to be aware of that.

Dr. Leslie (34:19)

Yes.

Annie Elise (34:20)

I love that.

Dr. Leslie (34:20)

I love that.

Annie Elise (34:21)

For me. Yeah. What airline were you on? I'm just curious.

Dr. Leslie (34:24)

I think it was America.

Annie Elise (34:25)

I was gonna say Frontier. No, I'm just kidding.

Dr. Leslie (34:28)

Okay. So you said you were watching true crime at 14?

Annie Elise (34:33)

Yeah, 14 or 15.

Dr. Leslie (34:34)

Okay. How do you feel about your kids? Like, how. How are you going to introduce them into this world of crime?

Annie Elise (34:41)

I think the first way I'm going to be able to introduce them is probably, I would imagine, when they're maybe, and I don't know, maybe the aunt, this is not the right age, but, like 10 years old, I would imagine they're gonna ask me, like, what do you do for work, especially for like, career day with your parents? And I'm gonna have to explain, like, okay, so Mommy tries to do this to try to help people or try to raise awareness. And I think that will probably be the initial point of, like, introducing them into that world before they start, like, seeing things on the news or watching things on their own once they're much older. But I think a big part of the reason too, like, which goes hand in hand with that of why I do this, is because so many of these kids weren't protected. They were either exploited, they were murdered, they were abused by their parents. And as a mom, I of course feel like all I want to do is protect my children. So if these children, who unfortunately are victims in these cases, weren't even protected by their own families, I feel like I can almost like, by proxy protect them in a way by having their voices carry on their stories, be told, hopefully educate other people on warning signs to look for if children are being abused or exploited and, like, protect them post mortem, if that makes sense. And I don't think that I am necessarily doing that. I think in my mind that's kind of the hope. And I feel like, okay, I want to protect my children. I wish these children were protected. Here's how I can, by proxy. And I think that I try to do that a little bit.

Dr. Leslie (36:04)

It's going to be hard.

Annie Elise (36:05)

Yes, right.

Dr. Leslie (36:06)

I think about it too. Like, how do you gauge the nuance of too much information?

Annie Elise (36:13)

Because, yeah, I don't want to share with my kids how evil the world is and like fear monger. But I also definitely want them to be aware. And we have our passwords for if somebody ever comes to the school saying they're picking you up. I don't put any sort of names or initials on their backpacks, their clothing, anything like that. I have other secret little techniques I use for how I would track them and do things like that. So it's like, I don't want to instill fear in them. But I also. It's not the same day and age where when I was younger, I could go outside, ride my bike all around the city until the street lights come on, or go door to door at my neighbor's houses. You can't do that anymore. You can't even have sleepovers anymore without something happening. And the dad putting roofies in your friend's smoothies so that he can like touch them when you all fall asleep, you know.

Dr. Leslie (36:59)

Exactly.

Annie Elise (37:00)

And like, luckily that's not the standard and the norm, but it's moving that direction. And so I don't know what that conversation is going to look like yet.

Dr. Leslie (37:10)

But I do feel like we can teach them a lot about what we do while empowering them.

Annie Elise (37:17)

Absolutely.

Dr. Leslie (37:18)

And I think that's. It's going to be hard. So my daughter is. My daughter's seven now and she's asking, and she's asking about death. What happens to your body? So many questions.

Annie Elise (37:31)

Yeah.

Dr. Leslie (37:31)

And trying to explain them because I don't know about you. Like, I've never really known a seven year old before.

Annie Elise (37:36)

No, I, I haven't known many. No, no.

Dr. Leslie (37:39)

Like, I don't know children. Like I had my kids and I was like, you're gonna let me take this home.

Annie Elise (37:42)

I know.

Dr. Leslie (37:43)

All right. But I hope I'm doing a good enough job.

Annie Elise (37:48)

I'm sure you're doing a great job, but it's hard learning as we go.

Dr. Leslie (37:53)

Yeah. Like, and how much, how much do we share.

Annie Elise (37:57)

Yeah.

Dr. Leslie (37:57)

Of the reality of this world without scaring the shit out of them?

Annie Elise (38:00)

I feel like luckily there are a lot of books out there. Like not books for us, but like even children's books that help them know what to look for or what is a problem and identify it. Such as like a good touch, a bad touch, things like that, which you have to start talking about as young as like five even now, which is horrifying, especially with what goes on in the daycares and things like that. But it's like you have to have these important conversations because you don't want to miss something and you don't want them to feel like they can't come to you if something feels wrong.

Dr. Leslie (38:29)

So how does your awareness of all of these crimes play into your protectiveness of the kids and maybe in comparison to the other moms who are, you know, Tweedledee and Tweedledum?

Annie Elise (38:41)

I don't know. I don't really know the answer to that. I feel like I am hyper aware. I'm not going to let them just go over to strangers houses or do things like that. I mean, they don't really. They're pretty much with me as it is and, and I've been very lucky so far. Knock on wood. The two preschools that my kids have been in, they know what I do for a living. So I don't know if that would deter them from anything. But, like, they're very well aware of what I do. And so hopefully that is reflected in, you know, decision making. But I think there are great schools. We vetted them very carefully. But I am more aware, I am always looking around if my son, if we're in the bath and he like, says something hurts or if I see that there's a mark, I like, don't overreact. But I'll ask a question and say, like, hey, so like, does anybody ever, like, when you're going to the bathroom, does anybody ever, like, come and assist you or help you? And I just, like, try to ask little questions to where he wouldn't feel like he couldn't tell me the truth and he would say something. Or if, like, he says something that does raise a red flag for me, I'll like, probe a little further and ask more questions just to get a little bit more clarity. And I've reinforced with my oldest, my son, who's now going to be five. I always tell him, like, we have the words he's not allowed to say and like, bad words. But I always say, if you're telling mommy a story, if you're telling me something that happened, you can always say whatever words you want to say. And so, like, he'll tell me ahead of time, like, mommy, I'm going to tell a story. Can I say a bad word? And I'm like, sure. And so he'll like, tell me, like, I was here and this guy, this kid said he was going to kill me or like, something like that because they were just like playing on the playground. And he'll like, tell me because I told him kill is a bad word. And so he'll tell me these things. And so I think just like, the more conversations we can have with them.

Dr. Leslie (40:14)

Yeah, the open communication. Yeah. And you, you're not judgmental?

Annie Elise (40:18)

No.

Dr. Leslie (40:19)

Right. So they can come to you.

Annie Elise (40:20)

I mean, I'm definitely judging in private. And I'm like, okay, you're never fucking hanging out with that little kid again. But like, yes. Yeah.

Dr. Leslie (40:27)

I mean, sometimes I tell my daughter a little bit, like, stay clear of her, but okay, I like that. So it's informing your experience is informing your parenting, but not fear mongering or scaring them. And there is a level of empowerment and independence that you're building in them.

Annie Elise (40:42)

I'm trying because I believe the more information they have, the better decisions they will be able to make. Yeah.

Dr. Leslie (40:48)

Yeah.

Annie Elise (40:49)

Even as they're tiny little humans.

Dr. Leslie (40:51)

Oh. But at 5, I mean, they said they're impressionable. Yeah.

Annie Elise (40:54)

And they retain information. And my son is so smart and retains so much information. So it's like, I definitely need to be having those conversations now.

Dr. Leslie (41:03)

How do you feel about them being old enough to see you on YouTube and what they'll think it's kind of weird.

Annie Elise (41:10)

He. So he has all of the kids settings on his tablet, so he only gets YouTube kids, which he obviously then can't see my content. But there's been times where we have YouTube on the smart TV in the house. And like, because it's in our feed or our account that we're signed in, like, mine will come up as a suggested video. So he'll be like, mommy, look, you're on tv. And like, I don't think he quite understands what that is yet. And then there's been a couple times where he's come by the studio and he just thinks it's fun. He'll like jump up, sit and talk in the mic and like, he just plays with it. But he only watch kids. He watches kids shows, obviously, so I don't know if he fully understands that yet.

Dr. Leslie (41:43)

Like, when they're 20 years old and.

Annie Elise (41:45)

They'Re like, by then they're gonna be like, okay, mom, YouTube's like archaic. You're such a boomer. What, like, what were doing?

Dr. Leslie (41:51)

They're gonna be like, my mom is a badass.

Annie Elise (41:54)

Hopefully. We'll see.

Dr. Leslie (41:55)

I think so.

Annie Elise (41:56)

The jury's out. We'll see.

Dr. Leslie (41:59)

Oops. Commercial time.

Enrique Santos (42:03)

In 2012, 16 year old Brian Herrera was gunned down in broad daylight on his way to do homework. No suspects, no witnesses, no justice.

Dr. Leslie (42:14)

The call was horrible. I replay it over my head all the time.

Enrique Santos (42:18)

For years, Brian's family kept asking questions, while a culture of silence kept the case cold.

Dr. Leslie (42:24)

Snitches get stitches. Everybody knows it.

Enrique Santos (42:28)

Still, they refused to give up.

Dr. Leslie (42:30)

I would ask my husband, do you want me just let this go? He was like, no, keep fighting.

Enrique Santos (42:34)

I told her I would never give up on this case. And then, after a decade of waiting, a breakthrough.

Dr. Leslie (42:40)

We received a phone call that was bittersweet, because it's a call that we've been waiting for for a very long time.

Enrique Santos (42:46)

I'm Enrique Santos. This is Cold Case Files Miami, a podcast about justice, persistence, and the families who never stopped fighting. Listen to Cold Case Files Miami as part of the Mikeultura Podcast Network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your Podcasts.

Dr. Leslie (43:06)

Jan Marsalek was a model of German corporate success.

Annie Elise (43:09)

It seemed so damn simple for him.

Dr. Leslie (43:12)

Also, it turned out, a fraudster. Where does the money come from? That was something that I always was questioning myself. But what if I told you that was the least interesting thing about him? His secret office was less than 500 meters down the road.

Annie Elise (43:27)

I often ask myself now, did I know the true Jan at all? Certain things in my life since then have gone terribly wrong. I don't know if they followed me to my home.

Dr. Leslie (43:39)

It looks like the ingredients of a really grand spy story, because this ties together the Cold War with the new one. Listen to hot agent of chaos on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Enrique Santos (44:02)

From. Iheart Podcasts. Before social media, before the Internet, before cable news, there was Alan.

Annie Elise (44:09)

Bur you dig what I do. You have a need. Unfortunately, you have no sense of humor. That's why you can't ever enjoy this show, and that's why you're a loser.

Enrique Santos (44:17)

He was the first and the original shock jock.

Dr. Leslie (44:21)

That scratchy, irreverent kind of way of talking to people.

Annie Elise (44:24)

You're as dumb as the rest. That's. I can't take anyone. I don't agree with you all the time. I don't want you to. I hope that you pick me apart.

Enrique Santos (44:30)

His voice changed media. His death shocked the nation.

Dr. Leslie (44:34)

And it makes me so angry.

Annie Elise (44:35)

Angry that he got himself killed because he had a big mouth. KOA morning talk show host Alan Berg reportedly was shot and killed tonight in downtown Denver.

Dr. Leslie (44:44)

He pointed to the Denver phone book and said, well, There are probably 2 million suspects. This guy aggravated everybody.

Enrique Santos (44:51)

From iheart podcasts, this is Live Wire. The loud life and shocking murder of Alan Berg. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

Unknown Host (45:03)

Maybe you've heard that Stonewall was a riot where queer people fought back against police, or that it's the reason pride is celebrated this time of year.

Annie Elise (45:12)

It was one of the most liberating things that I have ever done.

Unknown Host (45:16)

But did you know that before it went down in history, the Stonewall was a queer hangout run by the mafia.

Annie Elise (45:22)

The voguing at Stonewall was unbelievable.

Unknown Host (45:25)

In the summer of 1969, it became the site that set off the modern movement for LGBTQ rights.

Dr. Leslie (45:33)

Start banging on the door of the Stonewall like one.

Annie Elise (45:36)

Boom, boom, boom.

Unknown Host (45:38)

Legend says Marsha P. Johnson, a mother in the fight for trans rights, threw the very first brick. She was really, like, scrubbed out of that History. This week on Afterlives, we'll separate the truth from the myth in the life of Marsha P. Johnson. Listen to afterlives on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Dr. Leslie (46:01)

I have a different game.

Annie Elise (46:02)

Great.

Dr. Leslie (46:03)

Okay, since we're talking about killing people, let's build a crime scene.

Annie Elise (46:08)

Okay.

Dr. Leslie (46:09)

Okay. I'm gonna say a sentence, and then you say one. And we'll go back and forth until we finish our crime.

Annie Elise (46:16)

Oh, we're building, like, the actual crime.

Dr. Leslie (46:18)

Okay.

Annie Elise (46:18)

All right.

Dr. Leslie (46:19)

Knowing we aren't gonna get caught.

Annie Elise (46:21)

Okay.

Dr. Leslie (46:22)

Okay, so I'll start. I did something bad.

Annie Elise (46:27)

It was to my husband.

Dr. Leslie (46:31)

He wasn't expecting it, but the was cheating. I used something surprising.

Annie Elise (46:43)

I found it in my kitchen. It was from Lowe's, and it had a greater edge.

Dr. Leslie (46:54)

It should have been in the yard.

Annie Elise (46:58)

So I bashed his head with it.

Dr. Leslie (47:03)

And he fell to the ground.

Annie Elise (47:06)

And I literally smiled.

Dr. Leslie (47:10)

And his last words were, I'm sorry.

Annie Elise (47:14)

I fucked up. You did.

Dr. Leslie (47:18)

So then I. So then I had to do something.

Annie Elise (47:22)

I knew I needed to hide the body.

Dr. Leslie (47:25)

I had a plan.

Annie Elise (47:27)

I was gonna get away with this.

Dr. Leslie (47:30)

I decided to hide the body at the. In this very precise location.

Annie Elise (47:42)

So I used one of those drill bits on the driveway, and no one noticed. I said I was doing a remodel.

Dr. Leslie (47:53)

It was really hard to get the body out into the hole.

Annie Elise (47:56)

But then I started mixing up the fresh pavement.

Dr. Leslie (48:01)

And I realized I had to chop up the body because I couldn't carry it.

Annie Elise (48:07)

So then I put all the pieces in the torn up driveway.

Dr. Leslie (48:12)

And covered.

Annie Elise (48:13)

It up with the fresh pavement. And now I feel excited every time I park my car in the driveway.

Dr. Leslie (48:25)

Oh, my God. This is epic. We're gonna. Our husbands will be scared for life.

Annie Elise (48:30)

They better be. Wandering eye. No, thank you. No, thank you. I'll chop it right off.

Dr. Leslie (48:37)

So if you could go back and talk to 15 year old Annie, what would you say?

Annie Elise (48:44)

Just like. Like, overall, what? I would tell myself.

Dr. Leslie (48:47)

Yeah, like this just happened at 17. You're gonna be in a relationship with a nitwit.

Annie Elise (48:54)

Yeah.

Dr. Leslie (48:54)

And now you coming in as your adult self and mom, with all your experience, what would you tell her as she's recovering from brain surgery?

Annie Elise (49:03)

I would say, don't worry about fitting in with crowds. Don't worry about trying to, like, make friends and fit in with people and impress them and, like, you know, throw your standards and values away to try to impress them or try to, like, make somebody like you or want to be around you. Like, stay strong in who you are. And I would also encourage myself to go. To go away to school, to, like, broaden my horizons. Like, meet new people, live dorm life, do things like that. I really want that for my kids. But, yeah, it would be mainly of, like, don't sacrifice your own values. Don't let people influence what your decisions are. If something doesn't feel right, it probably is not right. And the right person who actually cares about you isn't going to force you to do drugs, have sex, physically hurt you, put you into other situations that you should not be in because they don't care about. Like, I would just try to really drive that idea home.

Dr. Leslie (50:01)

I love that.

Annie Elise (50:03)

Yeah. Thanks.

Dr. Leslie (50:04)

If it doesn't feel right, it's not right. And no one's gonna put you. No good person should be putting you in a situation.

Annie Elise (50:09)

No.

Dr. Leslie (50:10)

That is high risk or uncomfortable or.

Annie Elise (50:12)

Dangerous or where you're questioning yourself. Or, do I need to do this to make this person like me? Or if I say no, what's going to happen? Absolutely not. There should never be any sort of questioning like that.

Dr. Leslie (50:23)

And fuck the judgment.

Annie Elise (50:24)

Fuck the judgment. The judgment doesn't matter.

Dr. Leslie (50:27)

Yeah. That's amazing.

Annie Elise (50:30)

Thanks. Let's put that on a bumper sticker. The judgment.

Dr. Leslie (50:35)

But you have this beautiful thread of confidence.

Annie Elise (50:41)

Thank you.

Dr. Leslie (50:42)

I mean, stemming from understanding the true crime as a kid to gaining mastery over this horrific accident, and then carrying through with shitty relationships and just being this powerhouse of a woman.

Annie Elise (50:58)

Thanks. I definitely don't feel like I've come out on the other end yet. I feel like I'm definitely still going through stuff, but hopefully it's getting better and better as we go.

Dr. Leslie (51:07)

It is.

Annie Elise (51:07)

Yeah.

Dr. Leslie (51:08)

Yeah. And you never. I mean, I personally, I don't really know anybody who feels mastery in life.

Annie Elise (51:13)

No.

Dr. Leslie (51:14)

When the kids are this young.

Annie Elise (51:15)

No. I feel like it's normal to kind of, like, look back at the last few years and be like, oh, I wish I would have done that differently, or I wish I would have changed my opinion or mind about something a lot sooner and things like that. So you're always learning, I think.

Dr. Leslie (51:28)

Yeah. I really appreciate you doing this.

Annie Elise (51:31)

Yeah. It was my pleasure. I had fun talking with you. Thank you for having me.

Dr. Leslie (51:34)

Yeah. I know you spend most of your life on the other side.

Annie Elise (51:39)

It's nice to be on this side for a change.

Dr. Leslie (51:41)

Yes. And I find you to be so interesting.

Annie Elise (51:45)

Thank you.

Dr. Leslie (51:46)

And I know you focus so much on other people and other crimes and people are drawn to you, but I hope it's helpful to them to now see more of you.

Annie Elise (51:59)

Hopefully. Hopefully it doesn't scare them away. Or hopefully cancel culture isn't still a thing. I don't know. We'll see.

Dr. Leslie (52:05)

I think that was great. I think showing more of you will make your. Your narrative for your podcast and your show even stronger.

Annie Elise (52:17)

Great. I hope so. Hopefully they get to know me a little bit better. Thank you for having me and allowing me to share more of my life.

Dr. Leslie (52:22)

Yes. Next step is drinking wine and walking kids.

Annie Elise (52:26)

Amen.

Dr. Leslie (52:27)

Okay.

Annie Elise (52:27)

Sign me up.

Dr. Leslie (52:28)

Let's just drink wine and sit.

Annie Elise (52:29)

Yeah. Can we? Yeah. Can we? Let's get a babysitter and like, get the babysitter. Yeah.

Dr. Leslie (52:34)

Okay.

Annie Elise (52:34)

Thank you.

Dr. Leslie (52:35)

That's a plan, actually. Bourbon. Okay.

Annie Elise (52:37)

Perfect. Even better.

Dr. Leslie (52:40)

Okay. Thank you for tuning in to Intentionally Disturbing. I had a wonderful time interviewing Annie. We covered so many topics like true crime, parenting, our little rascals, and some of the trauma that's happened in her life. And what I love the most is that Annie is a badass. And it's a lesson for all of us to learn that no matter what happens in our life, whatever takes us down, we can carry that thread of our badassery through life and we can be empowered, strong people. Thanks for listening to my conversation with Annie, Elise. I'll see you next time.

Enrique Santos (53:34)

In 2012, 16 year old Brian Herrera was gunned down in broad daylight on his way to do homework. No suspects, no witnesses, no justice.

Dr. Leslie (53:43)

I would ask my husband, do you want me to stop? He was like, no, keep fighting.

Enrique Santos (53:48)

After nearly a decade, a breakthrough changed everything. This is Cold Case Files Miami. Stories of families who never stopped fighting. Listen to Cold Case Files Miami on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Unknown Host (54:03)

Maybe you've heard that Stonewall was a riot where queer people fought back against police. Or that it's the reason pride is celebrated this time of year.

Annie Elise (54:12)

It was one of the most liberating things that I have ever done.

Unknown Host (54:16)

Legend says Marsha P. Johnson threw the very first brick.

Dr. Leslie (54:20)

Started banging on the door of the Stonewall like one.

Annie Elise (54:22)

Boom.

Unknown Host (54:23)

This week on Afterlives will separate the truth from the myth in the life of Marsha P. Johnson. Listen to afterlives on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Annie Elise (54:36)

How could a beautiful young first grade teacher be stabbed 20 times, including in the bat, allegedly die of suicide? Yes, that was the medical examiner's official ruling. After a closed door meeting, he first named it a homicide.

Dr. Leslie (54:54)

Why?

Annie Elise (54:55)

What happened to Ellen Greenberg, a huge American miscarriage of justice. For an in depth look at the facts, see what happened to Ellen on Amazon. All proceeds to the national center for Missing and Exploited Children.

Dr. Leslie (55:16)

Did it occur to you that he charmed you in any way?

Annie Elise (55:19)

Yes, it did. But he was a charming man.

Dr. Leslie (55:24)

It looks like the ingredients of a really grand spy story because this ties together the Cold War with the new one.

Annie Elise (55:31)

I often ask myself now, did I know the true Jan at all?

Dr. Leslie (55:38)

Listen to Hot Agent of chaos on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart podcast.