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Dr. Leslie Dobson
Hi, I'm Morgan. I have three kids. I have an IQ of 160. I work with the cops.
Todd Blanche
You're a cop?
Podcast Host/Interviewer
No. They do sign my paychecks.
Ghislaine Maxwell
Kaitlin Olsen returns in High Potential, the number one drama.
Todd Blanche
She was abducted. You knew that already, didn't you?
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Yeah, I thought it'd be nice to let you have this one.
Ghislaine Maxwell
And one of the best new crime procedurals.
Todd Blanche
You're waiting on me to leave so you can poke around without a warrant, aren't you?
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Yeah.
Ghislaine Maxwell
High potential. New Tuesdays, 10. 9 Central on ABC and stream on Hulu.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Hey, it's Karen and Georgia, and we just celebrated our 500th episode of My Favorite Murder. That's 500 podcasts filled with true crime comedy and some light girl math. We're about to podcast for you. Watch this. We have to think of something to say after. Welcome every week. And we're doing it every week for 10 years. Almost 10 years. 10 years. 10. That's what 500 episodes sounds like. New episodes every Thursday. Listen to My Favorite murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Goodbye from the studio.
Narrator/Documentary Voice
Who brought you the Piketon massacre and murder 101? This is incels.
Todd Blanche
I am a loser. If I was a woman, I wouldn't date me either.
Narrator/Documentary Voice
From the dark corners of the web, an emerging mindset.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
If I can't have you girls, I will destroy you.
Narrator/Documentary Voice
A kind of subculture. A hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against women. A seed of loneliness explodes.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
I just hate myself. I don't know why you girls aren't attracted to me, but I will punish.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
You all for it.
Narrator/Documentary Voice
At a deadly tipping point, Incels will.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Be added to the terrorism guide.
Ghislaine Maxwell
Police say a driver intentionally drove into.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
A crowd, killing 10 people.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Tomorrow is the day of retribution. I will have my revenge.
Narrator/Documentary Voice
This is Incels. Listen to season one of Incels on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. It was an unimaginable crime.
Ghislaine Maxwell
It's four consecutive live terms for Bryan.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Kohberger, who killed the four University of Idaho students.
Todd Blanche
The defense are on a sinking ship. It was clear at that point he was out of options.
Narrator/Documentary Voice
Nearly 30 months of silence until bombshell development.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Bryan Kohberger appearing, set to accept a plea deal just five weeks before his quadruple murder trial was set to start.
Narrator/Documentary Voice
No trial, no testimony.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
He has pleaded guilty to five criminal.
Todd Blanche
Counts, one of burglary and then four counts of murder.
Narrator/Documentary Voice
In this final season, we return to Moscow with interviews from those still searching for answers.
Todd Blanche
Why did the prosecution take this? They were holding all the cars.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
How on earth could you make a deal? What message does that send?
Narrator/Documentary Voice
Listen to season three of the Idaho Massacre on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Oh, hey. Welcome back to intentionally disturbing with Dr. Leslie. Today I have the honor of working with Tara Palmieri, independent journalist. And together with Tara's team, we. We pulled the Ghislaine Maxwell audio tapes of her deposition recently with Todd Blanche. So over six hours of deposition and we get a few clips and wow, even in these clips, I wanted to scream while I was listening to them. So who is Ghislaine Maxwell? I'm going to say she's a major con artist. In 2020, she was sentenced to decades in prison because of federal charges. She was a sex trafficker. She was the right hand man, or woman, as we should say, to Jeffrey Epstein. But somehow, recently, she gets to have this really, really long deposition with Todd Blanche and a lot of other people in the room, as you'll see, because you can hear their voices, although they haven't been disclosed to us. I was informed one FBI agent was in the room. So at least we know that she couldn't lie. Or if she lied, then it would be perjury. Well, that. Well, we get into that because she's very careful about that. She goes through all of this and all of a sudden she is quietly moved to a lower security facility. She is no longer registering as a sex offender, and just a few days ago, she is seen with new sneakers on, walking to her Pilates class. Listen in. And I hope you learned something about the truth behind Ghislaine Maxwell and how even your voice can give you away.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
I would love to get your take, Leslie, on what to make of these tapes. But first, I think we need to hear and see what Ghislaine Maxwell is like when she is not in prison, being interviewed by, you know, the number two in the Justice Department, hoping that whatever she says can clear the President and help her move on from a lower max security into possible, you know, ankle bracelet, house arrest, and then being pardoned altogether.
Ghislaine Maxwell
The reality today, though, is that the current law of the seas is based on an outdated mindset. It says that the high seas can be exploited by the few, so long as we all still have the right of access. It's an area that's not governed by a single entity. It's a mess of incoherent laws, unenforced laws and no laws. That's half our planet we're talking about. Activities are largely unregulated and unmonitored.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Okay, what do you make of that? I mean, I hear a very confident woman. She's on a stage talking to a number of people about this ocean charity, Tara Marr, that she used to sort of launder her name after the Epstein. After Epstein was arrested for procuring a minor for prostitution. And it was became known in the press that she was a part of it. But what do you hear or see when you. When you look at that woman?
Dr. Leslie Dobson
I see a completely different woman than we hear in those tapes. And I'm just struck by the irony of her saying that overfishing is dangerous because we. We don't want to harm all of those little precious fish in the ocean. When she handed little precious fish to giant monsters for many years.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Yeah. Actual human beings. So she seems to have more compassion for the fish in the sea.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Exactly.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Than human beings.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
The irony is. Is epic. But I mean, she's. She's speaking fast. She's in front of an audience. She's on point. She's hitting every word. She's. If you watch the video, she's engaging in eye contact, she's animated her body move. I mean, she's confident, she's alive.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
And she doesn't sound like a victim hiding.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Not at all.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
This is something that you do regularly. You interview criminals as part of your work in forensic psychology. Because you want to get down to the heart of what they did. You want the truth. Right. So I just want to go through what her first question. What. What the first question was to Galen Maxwell from Todd Blanche.
Todd Blanche
I'm not. If there's a path that. A question that I'm not asking, that you think should be asked, I invite you to volunteer. Same thing goes to your lawyers. Just to start a little bit, very briefly, can you talk about when you first met Mr. Epstein? I know that goes back a while. And just very generally talk about your relationship with Mr. Epstein from the time you met him all the way up until. Until his death.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
There are so many things wrong with that. I mean, he's setting her up. He's putting her in a frame, telling her where to go, what not to answer. Keep it general. He sounds meek. He doesn't sound like he's in charge at all. And he's talking slower than he would normally talk. The whole thing is just setting up. You know, be careful what you say right now. Yeah.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
I mean, he sounds like he's he knows too, that this is going to be released publicly. Right. That these tapes are going to be made what are going to be made public because he did end up releasing them.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
He sounds nervous. And for a trial attorney to sound nervous in something he's done a million times, that is very fishy to me.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
How would you have set that up?
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Well, you do want to have open ended questions, right? You want them to hang themselves, basically, you know, you're looking for all of these items of the personality to show very, very similar to a psychopathy inventory. You want them to be charismatic, you want them to be boastful, you want to catch them in lies. So I would definitely leave it open ended, but I would say, you know, I'm in charge. This is open ended. Go ahead and speak. I wouldn't say rein it in. Let's be very general, let's be very careful. He opens it as he should, and then he closes it before she even answers.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
I mean, why would you want to be general or open, not specific about a massive sex criminal operation? I mean, don't you want to get down to the truth? If it's Department of Justice, don't you want justice? And if this woman has been convicted of and indicted of being a part of a sex trafficking operation that the FBI says included as many as a thousand victims, why would you want her to be general? I mean, she could have leads.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
And, and as we'll see in the tapes, there are moments where he can take general to specific and he doesn't.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Okay, we'll have to keep listening. Let's listen to Glenn's recollection of meeting Jeffrey Epstein. It's his first question to her.
Ghislaine Maxwell
And so sometime in 1991, now we're in 1991. I met him at his offices in Man Salon. And I think the most memorable thing I can think about is he was wearing a tie, which he didn't often drew me at heavy, a giant tomato ketchup thing. So I was like, wow, okay. And that was.
Todd Blanche
How was your meeting at his office for you to meet him just personally or were you. Were you there for work related reasons?
Ghislaine Maxwell
No, I knew nothing about. I. He just invited me to come and have tea and I was like, tea? That's English. Okay. But what was unusual was in his offices. So I went to his offices and we met and I found him very engaging. And.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
What'D you make of that?
Dr. Leslie Dobson
So much. I mean, the moment he said, okay, he was scared. She was about to say something, he was nervous. He stopped her like okay, okay. You said enough. You said enough. And then the way she starts to take control of the conversation and conclude it with that was that they both are on the verge. They're being so careful. It is uncomfortable to me.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
They're colluding, essentially, is what you sensed?
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Yes. Maybe not. Maybe not colluding in the sense that they actually know what the other person's play is, but they know they can't.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Go somewhere, but they're trying to take care of each other in a kind of. Yeah.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Or someone else. We'll be right back after this break. Oh, hey.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
What did you make of her slopping her hand up and down while she was telling the story? Because you could hear her sort of banging her hand.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
She does. She does seem anxious. She seems unsettled. And I. I think as the more I listen to it, the more I see that, you know, she doesn't want to mess up her agenda. And her agenda is to not perjure herself, but not get in trouble and actually tell the truth, get in trouble with anybody else. So you can see that she's very, very careful. And then as her emotions catch up and her rate of speech, she's talking faster. Here she goes. She's telling the story. She always jumps back to. Maybe I don't remember. That's my recollection. Some kind of soft landing that isn't going to be perjury.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
And then the kind of awkward laughing. Like I said, it's an anxious laughing. Right.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
It's. It sounds to me like an anxious laughing. But still she maintains a fondness of that moment with him in his tie, which is so disgusting.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Right. All right, let's move on to the next one.
Ghislaine Maxwell
All right, first of all, let's just state, I did not introduce him to Prince Andrew. I did not introduce him to Prince Andrew or to Sarah Ferguson. That is a flat untruth. Start with that.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Okay, That's a moment. What did you make of that?
Dr. Leslie Dobson
So that was her being confident. Right? That was her saying, you know, I don't want to get in trouble for this. I know this. I remember this. I'm clear on this. She laid her ground and he let her. He. He didn't control her at all. He didn't press her.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
It's kind of the opposite of victim Galen, which is what you heard from the beginning. Right.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
I don't know why certain clips were released and certain clips were not. But this was the one clip where she was confident. This was the TED Talk clip. This is what somebody wanted us to hear.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
She Was saying it for someone else.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Yes, that the reason that clip was there was because she was very matter of factly saying something. And as we'll see, that changes.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Yep. Okay, so let's play the next one.
Todd Blanche
Prince Andrew himself, who suggested that he met Jeffrey Epstein through you.
Ghislaine Maxwell
I think that's true. So. Well, it's true that Andrew said that. No, I'm sure it's true because I, I'm English and my close friends are all close friends with Sarah and Andrew. And I would not say that I was close friends with Andrew before, but certainly we were friendly and certainly his best friends, some of them very, very close with me. And I think that my friendship, my me being present or me is what made Andrew like Jeffrey Moore.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
What do you make of that?
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Well, who was that other voice that said something like I can't believe you said that or so it was Andrew. Did you hear that other voice?
Podcast Host/Interviewer
I didn't actually.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
There's a third voice and I know her attorneys were present. There's a third female voice. She sounds older and she was genuinely shocked that Maxwell said that. And then we've got Maxwell changing her cadence. She changes the way she talks. She over elaborates because now she knows. Whoops, I up. Oopsie. Now I've got to explain that because I'm English, that's why I knew him. But if you listen very carefully, there is somebody else who is saying hold back.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Yeah. Okay, let's listen to that sound again.
Ghislaine Maxwell
It's true that Andrew said that. No, I'm sure it's true because it's.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
True that Andrew said that. That was not her voice.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Nope, that wasn't her voice. That was somebody else.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
That was somebody interrupting her in this high profile interview because they wanted to guide what she was saying. That does not happen in real life. In a deposition, no one can cut you off. And if an attorney witnessed that, they would be there in a second. Why did you say that? What did that mean? I object to that. Like where the was Todd?
Podcast Host/Interviewer
What would an innocent person sound like?
Dr. Leslie Dobson
They would be consistent, the tone would be consistent. And I think the biggest part for me would be emotions would be relevant to the topic at hand. Her emotions are quite erratic. She's giggling, she's overly confident, she's pretty flat. It doesn't make sense to the topic when the overall topic is, girl, you're in prison, you might be in PR prison for life. You know, you're trying to hide from the world that you know all these big players that were little girls and you're giggling and nothing's consistent.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Also, she's the one who acknowledges that Jeffrey Epstein was involved in sex crimes. She just says she wasn't a part of it. So, like, all. All of this should be very uncomfortable and. And should have a certain reference to it. Right?
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Right. I mean, she should be anxious and uncomfortable or she should be confident. God knows she's had enough time to practice for this. Right? Like, she's a master con artist. She's been trained by amazingly successfully psychopathic people. Why is she flipping and flopping unless she's looking around that room, looking at people's reactions and getting some guidance.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Right. And also, if this person is the reason you are spending the rest of your life in jail or at least the next 20 years, wouldn't you know or try to remember or flip through in your mind every single moment that you had together and how you ended up like this, where you are.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
And. It's time for a break. Hi, I'm Morgan. I have three kids. I have an IQ of 160. I work with the cops.
Todd Blanche
You're a cop?
Podcast Host/Interviewer
No, but they do sign my paychecks.
Ghislaine Maxwell
Kaitlin Olson returns. And in High Potential, the number one drama.
Todd Blanche
She was abducted. You knew that already, didn't you?
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Yeah, I thought it'd be nice to let you have this one.
Ghislaine Maxwell
And one of the best new crime procedurals.
Todd Blanche
You're waiting on me to leave so you can poke around without a warrant, aren't you?
Ghislaine Maxwell
Yeah. High potential. New Tuesdays, 10, 9 Central on ABC and stream on Hulu.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Hey, it's Karen in Georgia, and we just celebrated our 500th episode of My Favorite Murder. That's 500 podcasts filled with true crime comedy and some light girl math. We're about to podcast for you. Watch this. We have to think of something to say after welcome every week. And we're doing it every week for 10 years.
Todd Blanche
Almost 10 years.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
10 years. 10. That's what 500 episodes sounds like. New episodes every Thursday. Listen to my favorite murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Goodbye from the studio.
Narrator/Documentary Voice
Who brought you the Piketon massacre and murder 101. This is incels.
Todd Blanche
I am a loser. If I was a woman, I wouldn't date me either.
Narrator/Documentary Voice
From the dark corners of the web, an emerging mindset.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
If I can't have you girls, I will destroy you.
Narrator/Documentary Voice
A kind of subculture, a hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against women. A seed of loneliness explodes.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
I just hate myself. I don't Know why you girls aren't attracted to me, but I will punish.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
You all for it.
Narrator/Documentary Voice
At a deadly tipping point, Incels will.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Be added to the terrorism guide.
Ghislaine Maxwell
Police say a driver intentionally drove into.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
A crowd, killing 10 people.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Tomorrow is the day of retribution. I will have my revenge.
Narrator/Documentary Voice
This is Incels. Listen to season one of Incels on the iHeartRadio, Apple, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. It was an unimaginable crime.
Ghislaine Maxwell
It's four consecutive live terms for Bryan.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Kohberger, who killed the four University of Idaho students.
Todd Blanche
The defense are on a sinking ship. It was clear at that point he was out of options.
Narrator/Documentary Voice
Nearly 30 months of silence until bombshell development.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Bryan Kohberger appearing sequence.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Set to accept a plea deal just five weeks before his quadruple murder trial was set to start.
Narrator/Documentary Voice
No trial, no testimony.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
He has pleaded guilty to five criminal.
Todd Blanche
Counts, one of burglary, and then four counts of murder.
Narrator/Documentary Voice
In this final season, we return to Moscow with interviews from those still searching for answers.
Todd Blanche
Why did the prosecution take this? They were holding all the cars.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
How on earth could you make a deal? What message does that send?
Narrator/Documentary Voice
Listen to season three of the Idaho Massacre on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Oh, hey, you're here. The only thing I can think of is that if we don't have consistency and we have doubling down or we have this. Oh, I'm not quite sure. It's because we don't have truth.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Okay, let's go on to the next sound.
Todd Blanche
Okay, so the government had evidence that even as late as 2007, he paid you a lot of money.
Ghislaine Maxwell
What was that? What was the.
Todd Blanche
Like several millions and millions of dollars in 2007. $7.4 million, I think.
Ghislaine Maxwell
What was that for? Was it. Was that the head of.
Todd Blanche
That was. That's my question.
Ghislaine Maxwell
I'm sorry. So in 2007, I think that's probably the helicopter. That could have been. That could have been the helicopter, the Sikorsky, those big chunks like that. I don't personally have any memory of receiving a check from him for $7 million. I just don't. But I would have to. I know. So the answer to your question, if.
Todd Blanche
It went into your pocket, I would.
Ghislaine Maxwell
Remember if it went. He never paid me to. For services that you just described $7 million to. For any nefarious.
Todd Blanche
Yeah, I think I understand what you've said about being on the payroll and help him helping you with businesses and giving you a lot of life things along the Way you travel with him, ate with him is, you know, but. But there is the. This, These massive amounts of money, one time payments that I don't.
Ghislaine Maxwell
You'd have to trace that. Right. So I, I don't believe that came into my account or I had any control. I have no memory of that. I've. No, no.
Todd Blanche
Well, but if there's records that show up coming to your account, it sounds like what you're saying is that not putting aside your. You have no memory of that money being yours. Like, you didn't. That money is not.
Ghislaine Maxwell
No, I wouldn't be like, oh, yippee, let me go, I got $7 million. I'm going to go buy myself a yacht. No. Or, I don't know, something else or move it to some other. No, I don't think. I don't think. If you look, you. You'll have to check. Well, obviously you will. I don't think you'll find that money moving in any. To any account other mine or. It shouldn't show. I don't believe. Anyway, as far as I read, it wouldn't show me spending it.
Todd Blanche
Right.
Ghislaine Maxwell
Does that make sense?
Dr. Leslie Dobson
What the Was that?
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Yeah.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Can we tap dance more?
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Also, who doesn't remember getting that much money?
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Well, she does remember because she said that she had two options, that she was gonna go buy a yacht or move it. But then she was like, oh, that sounds a little too much like, I knew I got it. Well, you check if I got it. Oh, let's giggle. Let's join. Let's manipulate the interviewer. Oh, okay. Let's kind of get him off his game a little bit. And let's go back to owning the interview. And I'm not really sure if I ever got that money. I guess you'll find out, right, because you're so big and powerful. It's such a manipulative moment.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
And Todd Blanche is like, string me along, please. Save me. Throw me a life jacket.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
I mean, I would have.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
You know.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
He says 7.4, I think. Why didn't he say 6.8? How does she react? Does she clarify? I mean, why isn't he testing her at all? He's not. He's feeding her information and taking care of her answers.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
That's interesting. And I'm guessing when you interview criminals, you. You never do that. You're never.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Well, a big. A big part of assessing lies is saying the same shit in different ways over time and seeing how people react and how they answer. Right. Because it's really hard to lie to One person. And it's really hard to lie to a bunch of people. And we know several people were in that room. Right. She's also lying to the world. She's lying to documents, she's lying to history. She's lying to her lawsuit. Right. She has to be very careful because her story has changed so many times and so many different ears are on it. And she's trying to speak to everyone at once. So she's tap dancing around and not being clear in a precise answer. Now, if you can remember the name of a helicopter, I'm pretty sure you're going to remember the faces of powerful individuals that you interacted with. And $7 million.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Yeah, that is very true. She knew the name of the helicopter. Very astute. Okay, let's move on to the next one.
Todd Blanche
So there was. There's a list, a list of multiple masseuses that, that is floating around. I think you had new discovery. I think you were just talking about that, that list. Do you know how that list was created?
Ghislaine Maxwell
No. That. All that stuff that came out of that book, I now find suspect.
Todd Blanche
It's. It's far. It's part of the story you just told us.
Ghislaine Maxwell
Yes. Now, I'm not saying it's all fake. I don't know what's real, what's not. I don't know what name is true. Now that it's been to my mind anyway, now that it has been without a doubt contaminated and possibly fraudulent.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Without a doubt. It's painful to listen to. I mean, he opens with, it's just floating around. Let me just lay that out there. And then he continues with this lack of confidence that it even is there. But she.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
It's actually kind of pathetic. Like if I knew someone that sounded like that, I would, I would think they were in a very uncomfortable position. You're the number two person in the Justice Department.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Yes. I mean, at one point he says, I think you were just talking about this. Were you? If not, can you. It's just not how you would interview someone as a psychologist or a lawyer.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Yeah. Because you work with a lot of lawyers. So this is something you actually coach them on sometimes. Right?
Dr. Leslie Dobson
I coach them. I'm always testifying. I'm on the stand. I go through cross. If you want information, there are ways to get it. He did not.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
What did you make from without a doubt? What does it mean when someone says without a doubt or.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
I think there's a cult here. Yeah. There's a cultural component with the language. Because without a doubt, you know means a little. It's just a saying in England and in different countries as well. But I mean, she wanted to make sure, without a doubt that she let the world know that whatever information you are getting about this list, you cannot trust. But again, oh, wait, I don't really remember actually being there or being a part of any of this, so. But without a doubt, it's not true. I don't remember little girl. I don't remember taking her underwear off. But without a doubt.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a really important piece of evidence too, in the case against her, which her lawyers are, by the way, taking to the Supreme Court to try to overturn.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
I'm sure her eye contact was on point with every word she said and where she would take that. And that's why we don't have video of this.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
But we do know she's smashing the table around with her hand.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Yeah. We're gonna take a quick break and we'll be right back. This is an I heart podcast. So do you want to look and.
Todd Blanche
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Dr. Leslie Dobson
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Todd Blanche
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Dr. Leslie Dobson
Feel your best all summer long.
Todd Blanche
Prolon is science backed nutrition that can help change your relationship with food in just five days. Get 15% off plus a $40 bonus gift when you subscribe now@prolonlife.com iheart that's prolonlife.com iheartra hi, I'm Morgan.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
I have three kids. I have an IQ of one hundred and sixty. I work with the cops.
Todd Blanche
You're a cop?
Podcast Host/Interviewer
No, but they do sign my paychecks.
Ghislaine Maxwell
Kaitlin Olson returns in High Potential, the number one drama.
Todd Blanche
She was abducted. You knew that already, didn't you?
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Yeah, I thought it'd be nice to let you have this one.
Ghislaine Maxwell
And one of the best new crime procedurals.
Todd Blanche
You're waiting on me to leave so you can poke around without a warrant, aren't you?
Ghislaine Maxwell
Yeah. High potential. New Things Tuesdays 10, 9 Central on ABC and stream on Hulu.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Hey, it's Karen and Georgia and we just celebrated our 500th episode of My Favorite Murder. That's 500 podcasts filled with true crime comedy and some light girl math. We're about to podcast for you. Watch this. We have to think of something to say after welcome every week. And we're doing it every week for 10 years. Almost 10 years. 10 years. 10. That's what 500 episodes say. Sounds like new episodes every Thursday. Listen to my favorite murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Goodbye.
Narrator/Documentary Voice
On this podcast, Incels, we unpack an emerging mindset.
Todd Blanche
I am a loser. If I was a woman, I wouldn't date me. Out there.
Narrator/Documentary Voice
A hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against women at a deadly tipping point.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Tomorrow is the day of retribution, the day in which I will have my revenge.
Narrator/Documentary Voice
This is Incels. Listen to season one of Incels on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Oh, hey. She sounds oppressed by some type of a desire from someone, like she's not quite sure what she's saying and what she can say, what she wants to say, what she knows. I mean, the overall theme is we do not have consistency out of this woman. This. She's not old. This was her life. She wasn't on substances. She remembers things very clearly, and at times, she has no memory. It doesn't make sense.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Okay, let's keep going.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Were you ever in a massage room.
Todd Blanche
With him, with a masseuse that was.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Naked or giving him any sexual favors?
Ghislaine Maxwell
I never saw that. That I remember. Okay. Did you. Did you ever. Did any of the masseuses ever discuss with you giving. That they gave sexual favors to Epstein? No.
Todd Blanche
Did you ever see an underage girl go into a massage room with Mr. Epstein?
Ghislaine Maxwell
No.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
If you had seen that, what would you have done?
Todd Blanche
Would you have left?
Ghislaine Maxwell
I can't even conceive of. I can't imagine what I would have done.
Todd Blanche
All right, I'm sorry. No, that's okay.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Okay.
Todd Blanche
Did you ever observe Mr. Epstein masturbating during a massage?
Ghislaine Maxwell
Yes. I mean, when I'd seen him on a massage table, I had seen him masturbate. I don't know if there was a masseuse present, but I've seen him on a massage. Okay, Sorry.
Todd Blanche
Did you ever see him masturbate with a masseuse? You know, with. With a naked woman either giving a massage, reporting to give him a massage?
Ghislaine Maxwell
I don't remember seeing that.
Todd Blanche
Did you give him massages, by the way? I mean, there's a photo of you rubbing his feet, and I think I never.
Ghislaine Maxwell
I certainly have been in the massage room with him, and I have certainly rubbed his feet when he would talk, but I was not a Masseuse. And I didn't perform massage on him.
Todd Blanche
Did you participate in sexual activity with him with a masseuse, like, at the same time?
Ghislaine Maxwell
No.
Todd Blanche
And so does the testimony. I don't know if there was testimony, but the women who have said that that happened categorically. That's not true.
Ghislaine Maxwell
That is categorically not true. I just want to say that I have been. I mean, I remember there'd be times when he'd be getting a massage, I would be in the room. I could be on his feet, and somebody else could be on his feet, and we could be talking. So there is that.
Todd Blanche
That's not. You're not talking about something that's sexual. You're talking about literally just rubbing his feet.
Ghislaine Maxwell
Yes.
Todd Blanche
Okay, but I mean, that's not what I'm talking about.
Ghislaine Maxwell
There could be. Sometimes the women might be topless who are giving that. So you could say that was sexual in that context.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
So we end with a topless young girl massaging Epstein while Glain is massaging his toes. Yet we began with. I've never seen anything sexual. I've never been in a massage room. That I can remember. Don't perjure yourself, Glenn.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
That I can remember.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
She said that I can't remember. Yeah.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
That I can't remember. Yeah.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Oh, no. She said, I never saw that. That I can remember. That was the beginning. Then we end with qualifier.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Is what they use often to not purge themselves.
Ghislaine Maxwell
Yep.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
I can't recall. Or that I can remember.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
And she couldn't maintain it. Even as oddly bashful the lawyer was. Why are we bashful? You're sitting in prison as a top person in our government with one of the top offenders, and you're bashful. And who. Okay. So he says at one point about sex, something. And then he apologizes to her and says, I'm sorry. And then there's a third voice again. There is someone else's voice that says it's okay. And then they continue. Who are all these people?
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Sending a woman who's been indicted for trafficking.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Yes.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
And is in jail.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Why is he apologizing?
Podcast Host/Interviewer
He cuts her off at times when she's about to actually speak. Who cuts off a person that you're trying to get information from?
Dr. Leslie Dobson
I would fully understand if this were time limited and he was getting paid by the hour, but this guy's on salary, so we're not worried about that. She's not going anywhere. He wasn't there to get information. If he had, he could have gotten.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Almost felt like he was feeding her Lines.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Yes, he was. He said categorically not true. Then she said it. He didn't just feed her lines. He told her where to go. He told her when to stop. He told her what to say, and so did whoever else was in that room.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
I mean, I know that you've probably seen this Epstein book that has just come out, which is disgusting and depraved and shows that so many of his friends. A book that Glenn Maxwell, by the way, put together has a section called Children, in which there is a sexy girl picture of what looks like a child where they're posing and you see lots of young girls massaging Epstein's feet topless. There's, you know, even a check with a girl, and it says that, you know, she's been sold to Donald Trump or from Donald Trump to Jeffrey Epstein. You know, obviously, so many references to wet dreams and sex, sexual depravity and children and breasts and women and. And there's a picture of Ghislaine Maxwell in the. In the pool with Jeffrey Epstein, topless.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
But, yeah, we're gonna take a quick break and we'll be right back. Hi, I'm Morgan. I have three kids. I have an IQ of 160. I work with the cops.
Todd Blanche
You're a cop?
Dr. Leslie Dobson
No, but they do sign my paychecks.
Ghislaine Maxwell
Caitlin Helen Olsen returns in High Potential, the number one drama.
Todd Blanche
She was abducted. You knew that already, didn't you?
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Yeah, I thought it'd be nice to let you have this one.
Ghislaine Maxwell
And one of the best new crime procedurals.
Todd Blanche
You're waiting on me to leave so you can poke around without a warrant, aren't you?
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Yeah.
Ghislaine Maxwell
High potential. New Tuesdays, 10, 9 Central on ABC and stream on Hulu.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Hey, it's Karen and Georgia, and we just celebrated our 500th episode of My Favorite Murder. That's 500 podcasts filled with true crime comedy and some light girl math. We're about to podcast for you. Watch this. We have to think of something to say after welcome every week. And we're doing it every week for 10 years.
Todd Blanche
Almost 10 years.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
10 years. 10. That's what 500 episodes sounds like. New episodes every Thursday. Listen to my favorite murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Goodbye.
Narrator/Documentary Voice
On this podcast incels, we unpack an emerging mindset.
Todd Blanche
I am a loser. If I was a woman, I wouldn't date the either.
Narrator/Documentary Voice
And a hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against women at a deadly tipping point.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Tomorrow is the day of retribution. The day in which I will have my revenge.
Narrator/Documentary Voice
This is Incels. Listen to season one of Incels on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It was an unimaginable crime.
Ghislaine Maxwell
It's four consecutive live terms for Bryan.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Kohberger, who killed a 4. 4 University of Idaho students.
Narrator/Documentary Voice
Nearly 30 months of silence until Bombshell.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Development Bryan Coburger has agreed to plead guilty.
Narrator/Documentary Voice
No trial, no testimony.
Todd Blanche
The defense are on the sinking ship. This isn't the justice you wanted, but this is justice.
Narrator/Documentary Voice
Listen to season three of the Idaho Massacre on the iHeartRadio, Apple, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
This is an I heart podcast. Oh, hey. I think the best thing that I've seen is somebody. It was online, but somebody said, here's your birthday book. Happy birthday from all your friends, except this one. This one's fake. What? Like, I'm just gonna give you a fake one. You're. This birthday card's fake because we want to make sure that this one was in here. It's just. It's disgusting. If you look at the sketches, they. There is a point where they are drawing the breasts of the girls to be present, but very small. They're drawing bodies consistent with a pedophilic interest. They are prepubescent bodies.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
The school girl thing is a big theme as well.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
On their knees, ready to please.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
All right, let's keep going.
Todd Blanche
There's recently been reports about a birthday book that you assembled for Mr. Epstein, I think, for his 50th birthday in 2020.
Ghislaine Maxwell
That's true.
Todd Blanche
What do you. What do you know about that?
Ghislaine Maxwell
So my mom did a birthday book for my father at his 60th, and when I Epstein, would talk about his 50th, he said, I don't know what I'm going to do. And I said, well, there's a nice thing. So my mum did this book for my dad. He said, I love that idea. He said, can you help coordinate it? And he organized who. He called a lot of the people himself. I coordinated the putting together of the book, and some, in some instances, I called people that asked them to.
Todd Blanche
What was in the book? Like, what was the ask of the. Of the people you called?
Ghislaine Maxwell
It's his 50th birthday. Same thing you want on a piece of paper. Okay. I mean, nothing more.
Todd Blanche
Right? I mean, it was an obvious question. But you. Basically, his folks were invited to send something to you to celebrate his birthday.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Yes.
Ghislaine Maxwell
To say happy birthday with, like, have a wonderful day or something else. There Was no, there was no ask. But I wasn't responsible for everybody in that book. And there were people that he would ask himself to contribute.
Todd Blanche
Do you remember some. Do you remember specific names of individuals who did send letters or who did contribute?
Ghislaine Maxwell
It's been so long. I want to tell you today, I don't remember. I honestly don't remember.
Todd Blanche
The article talks about several names, but including the focus of the article, which is on Donald Trump. Do you remember President Trump submitting a letter or a card or a note?
Ghislaine Maxwell
I don't.
Todd Blanche
Do you think the article. Well, do you remember seeing that book or any portion of the letters in your discovery in New York?
Ghislaine Maxwell
Yes.
Todd Blanche
Okay. What do you remember seeing?
Ghislaine Maxwell
I remember there was. There were some portions of that book, but what surprised me. Yeah. What surprised me was how few there were, because I thought if you had those, where are the rest? There was none of Mr. Trump, in your discovery. In my discovery, sorry, President Trump, there was nothing from.
Todd Blanche
And do you remember. But separate, apart from your discovery, do you remember one way or the other whether President Trump submitted a letter for his 50th birthday?
Ghislaine Maxwell
I do not remember.
Todd Blanche
And the, the article that references the letter talks about like a. Sounds like either naked, a picture of naked woman or something like. Like that. Do you have any recollection of that?
Ghislaine Maxwell
I do not, but just no, I don't.
Todd Blanche
Do you remember. So what do you remember seeing from your discovery around the book? Like you said, portions of it or some of the pages.
Ghislaine Maxwell
I remember there were. Maybe I just want to say about the discovery that I had about. Maybe this is an exaggeration, I'm not sure, but in my mind, it's about close to 5 million pages, 5 million documents. It was a lot. And of that giant document dump that I received, I was only maybe as much as 30 to 35% I was never able to access. And this is documented on at the court. And so I cannot say that I saw everything, because I didn't.
Todd Blanche
Yeah, Okay.
Ghislaine Maxwell
I just want you to know that. And I think that that was by design.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
So now she's throwing other people under the bus. Yeah, it was by design.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
The DOJ knew that Trump was in that book, by the way, even when he denied it because it was in discovery in the case. But I believe that Todd Blanche went into that interview knowing that that book was real and that, that, that that President Trump had, had, had contributed to the book. He says he. That it's fake or he didn't, you know, take it for what it's worth, even though now we have seen it. It matches with the Wall Street Journal reported. But it's interesting to hear him interview when I think we should assume that he knew that Donald Trump was in the book. What do you, what do you make of that? Knowing that?
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Yeah. Again, we, we have a short sound clip, yet we still have massive inconsistencies in so many ways. I mean, we start the clip with a very long pause after his question. All right, let's, let's get our ducks in a row before we go to this one. And then she quickly wants to make herself very lovable. She talks about her mom. I did this. I, because I love people. You know, this is what you do.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
And you love a normal human being. I have a family too. I'm just like everyone else.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
These are also, these are little children naked in a book. But I love my mother and I'm normal. Okay, so, but then he starts with, you know, do you remember? Do you remember? And he's not getting the answers he wants. He's not getting, it's not going the way right. She's shut down. She's saying no. She's saying no. And then he kind of moves to what do you remember? And then he's quick to really cap that off. And she doesn't remember. But at the beginning she remembers the.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Yes or no question, which is like, yeah, you're not supposed to start with yes or no questions. I even know that as a journalist.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Yes. So she, she doesn't remember, but she knows that she did it because of this long late story about the love of her parents. And that we do this right. And then all of a sudden we don't remember what's in it. What I would have done is had very open ended questions for her. So we have this book, we all know what's in it. Nothing's redacted. What do you have to say about that? Where are you with all of this? Look at, like, imagine these graphic pictures now. How do you feel about being a part of handing over this book? Do you have any emotions around this? Are you human? You're talking about your mom. What would your parents think of this?
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Yeah.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Where's the humanity in this conversation? And why are we talking about Trump when we could have talked about anyone? There weren't. Trump wasn't the only person that could have been questioned. There were so many other contributors, allegedly, potentially to this book. Why aren't we asking about them? Why is this so focused on him?
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Because then they'd have to actually do a real investigation into The Epstein files.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
God forbid. God forbid we bring justice to these survivors.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Yeah. I've already been through so much. It's interesting that she started by saying, like, his folks were invited, his family. She really humanizes him. Despite the charges that she knows that he pled guilty to.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Yeah.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Procuring a minor for prostitute. She really, like, you can tell from her answers that she still holds him in high regard. She's not like, I'm. I'm disgusted by it. I. I didn't know how, like, foul it was, but, like, is that weird to you, or is that something that I. That a criminal would do? I don't. I don't understand.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
It's not weird to me, necessarily, because, you know, I know a lot of us don't believe in Stockholm syndrome. Or maybe we do. Maybe it exists. I don't know. When you align with your captor and love them, but when you're away from your captor for such a long period of time and you're seeking mental health therapy, your story should change. Your view of your captor should change. And her peasant. It doesn't sound like an insightful person who was wrongly accused, who is angry that she was put in this position, who was manipulated and trafficked herself. No, none of that is present.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Yeah. No. You think she, though, wanted to sound like a victim, though, at the same time, like that's what she hoped.
Ghislaine Maxwell
Or.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
A victim of her circumstances. Like she's been unfairly accused but not a victim of Jeffrey Epstein.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Yes. I think there's a. There's a meekness and a softness to her voice which she plays with at times, and she alters depending on the content. You know, where's the win for me if I answer it like this? And she has a motive, and I don't think she's always careful to cover the motive, which is, you know, to get out. Right. I don't want to get in any more trouble, and I want to get out. But it's not consistent. There's so many inconsistencies in that clip. But she does mention that she thought the book would be bigger. She has an image in her mind of the book. She was surprised by what she was shown. She's aware that things are left out. She draws upon the numbers and statistics. That is a very good memory. Like, she. She's on point. She knows what she's talking about. But then at other times, remember some things. Yeah, she can remember some things, and that's not how memory works. It's not a consistent portrayal of trauma, altered Memories. She's not consistently inconsistent, as we would see somebody who endured trauma over time.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Interesting. Any last thoughts?
Dr. Leslie Dobson
I mean, my thoughts are that I don't know what this theater. I don't know what this dog and pony show is. It's all over the place. But we have to step back and see the forest for the trees. Why is it all over the place? Why is this happening? What is the point? Why is so much money and time going into just not coming out with very direct answers? Because we're human beings. I remember who I had sex with when I was 16. I'm sure she has a memory of massaging his toes with a naked girl. And they were talking. She said they spoke. Okay. Did that naked girl have breasts? How old do you think she was? Was her voice particularly high or low? Where are all the questions? Where's the information?
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Yeah, it's just like a weird scene, to be honest.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
It's not transparent, and it's not authentic at all. And that's one thing we do know. We have a lot of questions, but we do know that we have not gotten real honest answers.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Leslie, thank you for your time. I've been enlightened by this. Dr. Leslie Dobson is incredible, and she does this sort of forensic analysis regularly on a number of cases. She is a. A wonder woman. I don't know how you do it all.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
I don't get a lot of sleep. But I do it for the justice. And if it brings us closer to the truth, in any case, for any victim, for any survivor, for anybody wrongly accused, I do it to get there.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
I really admire that. And you've been personally, really helpful to me when I've been on the other end of some harassment, and you've sort of made me feel in control in a time when I felt that I didn't have a lot of control in my situation. And your knowledge about what stalkers and harassers do, it was really helpful. So thank you for that.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Good. I'm so happy that we met.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
I know.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Shout out to Rob for introducing us.
Podcast Host/Interviewer
I know it was weird circumstances, but it's a. It's been a great partnership, and I hope we continue to do more shows together.
Dr. Leslie Dobson
Intentionally Disturbing is a podcast from me, Dr. Leslie. It's distributed by I Heart Me Media. Liam Billingham is the senior producer, and he also edits the show and puts up with my. Katie Cobbs does the social media, and she attempts to keep me in my lane. Not always successful. The executive producers are Paul Anderson and Scott McCarthy for Workhouse Media. Who have told me not to text them 247 7. But you know what? I'm still the boss. Thanks again for listening. We'll see you next week for more intentionally disturbing.
Podcast: Intentionally Disturbing
Host: Dr. Leslie Dobson (Forensic & Clinical Psychologist)
Guest: Tara Palmeri (Independent Journalist)
Episode: Ghislaine Maxwell Tapes
Date: October 2, 2025
Duration: ~53 minutes
This episode offers a forensic breakdown of the newly released Ghislaine Maxwell audio deposition tapes. Dr. Leslie Dobson and journalist Tara Palmeri dissect Maxwell’s responses, voice, body language, and the unusual dynamics of her questioning by Department of Justice attorney Todd Blanche. The goal: to unveil the manipulations, evasions, and psychological underpinnings behind Maxwell's testimony, and to question why so little transparency and directness exists in such a high-profile, high-stakes case.
Tone: Candid, darkly humorous, incisive, and deeply skeptical.
[03:11]
[05:28–07:17]
[07:42–09:43]
[10:24–11:48, 13:28–14:19, 14:33–16:05]
[13:28–16:41]
[21:39–28:23]
[25:56–27:40]
[31:37–34:42]
[40:14–47:06]
[47:06–51:36]
“She seems to have more compassion for the fish in the sea than human beings.”
— Podcast Host, [06:42]
“He’s feeding her information and taking care of her answers.”
— Dr. Dobson (on Todd Blanche), [24:38]
“If you can remember the name of a helicopter, I’m pretty sure you’re going to remember the faces of powerful individuals you interacted with. And $7 million.”
— Dr. Dobson, [25:49]
“She’s not consistently inconsistent, as we would see from someone who endured trauma over time…her peasant. It doesn’t sound like an insightful person who was wrongly accused, who was manipulated and trafficked herself. No, none of that is present.”
— Dr. Dobson, [48:53]
“It’s not transparent, and it’s not authentic at all. And that’s one thing we do know. We have a lot of questions, but we do know that we have not gotten real honest answers.”
— Dr. Dobson, [51:24]
| Time | Segment | |----------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:11 | Introduction of Ghislaine Maxwell’s background & significance of the tapes | | 05:28 | Contrasting Maxwell’s public speaking with her deposition demeanor | | 07:42 | Critique of Blanche’s interview style and agenda | | 10:24 | Maxwell’s first recollection of meeting Epstein | | 13:28 | Maxwell’s emphatic denial about Prince Andrew | | 21:39 | Discussion of suspicious money transfers ($7.4 million payment) | | 25:56 | The disputed “masseuse list” and claims of evidence contamination | | 31:37 | Detailed examination of ‘massage room’ testimony | | 40:14 | The ‘Birthday Book’, notable names, and shifting memory | | 47:06 | The podcast’s perspective on systemic justice failures and investigative avoidance | | 51:24 | Closing thoughts on inauthenticity and lack of honest answers |
This summary covers all core topics and notable segments from the episode, with key quotes, insights, and timestamps to equip listeners and non-listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the discussion.