intentionally DISTURBING X Tara Palmeri Show (Ghislaine Maxwell Tapes)

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: Intentionally Disturbing X Tara Palmeri Show (Ghislaine Maxwell Tapes)

Podcast: Intentionally Disturbing
Host: Dr. Leslie Dobson (Forensic & Clinical Psychologist)
Guest: Tara Palmeri (Independent Journalist)
Episode: Ghislaine Maxwell Tapes
Date: October 2, 2025
Duration: ~53 minutes

---

Episode Overview

This episode offers a forensic breakdown of the newly released Ghislaine Maxwell audio deposition tapes. Dr. Leslie Dobson and journalist Tara Palmeri dissect Maxwell’s responses, voice, body language, and the unusual dynamics of her questioning by Department of Justice attorney Todd Blanche. The goal: to unveil the manipulations, evasions, and psychological underpinnings behind Maxwell's testimony, and to question why so little transparency and directness exists in such a high-profile, high-stakes case.

Tone: Candid, darkly humorous, incisive, and deeply skeptical.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Who Is Ghislaine Maxwell and Why Do These Tapes Matter?

[03:11]

• Dr. Dobson sets the stage: Maxwell, long-known as Epstein’s "right-hand woman," was sentenced for sex trafficking but is now in a lower-security facility and no longer registered as a sex offender.
• The tapes are from her deposition with DOJ attorney Todd Blanche and include undisclosed voices, suspected lawyers, and an FBI agent.
• Dr. Dobson: “She’s a major con artist... yet she gets a long deposition where she’s extremely careful not to perjure herself. Now she’s seen strolling to Pilates class in her new sneakers.”

2. The Two Faces of Ghislaine Maxwell

[05:28–07:17]

• Host plays a tape of Maxwell giving a polished speech about the "law of the seas," contrasting it with her demeanor in the deposition tapes.
• Dr. Dobson: Notes the irony of Maxwell’s performative concern for the fish (“She handed little precious fish to giant monsters for many years.”)
• They observe Maxwell’s confidence, animation, and control while public speaking vs. the inconsistencies and anxiousness when under deposition.

3. Critique of Todd Blanche’s Interview Tactics

[07:42–09:43]

• Blanche’s initial question is open-ended but hedging, telling Maxwell to keep things "general."
• Dr. Dobson: “He’s setting her up... he sounds meek, he doesn’t sound in charge at all.”
• The hosts highlight Blanche’s nervousness and reluctance to press for specifics, highly irregular for a DOJ attorney.

4. Analyzing Maxwell’s Testimony Patterns

[10:24–11:48, 13:28–14:19, 14:33–16:05]

• Maxwell’s vivid memory (remembering a ketchup stain on Epstein’s tie) coupled with claimed amnesia on key matters.
• Memorable moment: She’s cut off (“okay, okay”) when she starts to elaborate, suggesting Blanche is protecting her.

5. Deflection and Inconsistencies about Prince Andrew

[13:28–16:41]

• Maxwell emphatically denies introducing Epstein to Prince Andrew. Later, she gets tripped up by a third voice and changes her story, leading to visible anxiety and elaboration.
• The hosts call out this coaching/guidance as unprecedented for a deposition:
  Dr. Dobson: “That does not happen in real life…someone was guiding what she was saying.”

6. Manipulation, Memory, and Tap-Dancing Around the Truth

[21:39–28:23]

• Blanche asks about millions in payments from Epstein. Maxwell first waffles, then hypothesizes (“maybe a helicopter…”), finally asserts she doesn’t recall – but details how she might have spent the money.
• Dr. Dobson: “Can we tap dance more? Also, who doesn’t remember getting that much money?”
• Observes that Blanche is feeding Maxwell answers instead of testing her honesty or memory.

7. Evasive Refutations about Critical Evidence

[25:56–27:40]

• Regarding the infamous list of "masseuses," Maxwell labels it “without a doubt contaminated and possibly fraudulent” while disclaiming specific memories.
• Dr. Dobson: “She wanted to make sure, without a doubt, that she let the world know whatever information you are getting about this list, you cannot trust.”

8. Breakdown of Massage Room Testimony

[31:37–34:42]

• Maxwell repeatedly answers with qualifiers: “I never saw that. That I remember.”
• At first denies seeing anything sexual; then admits topless women gave massages while she massaged Epstein’s feet.
• Podcast Host: Explains these linguistic tactics (“I can’t recall... that I can remember”) are meant to avoid perjury.
• Dr. Dobson: “She couldn’t maintain it. Even as oddly bashful the lawyer was. Why are we bashful?”

9. The ‘Birthday Book’ and Connections to Donald Trump

[40:14–47:06]

• Maxwell describes assembling an Epstein birthday book at his request but claims not to remember who contributed, especially regarding Donald Trump.
• She recalls vivid personal details, but repeatedly states she “honestly doesn’t remember” about contributors now known to be in the book.
• Dr. Dobson: “At the beginning she remembers... and then all of a sudden we don’t remember what’s in it.”

10. Failure of Transparency and Justice

[47:06–51:36]

• Hosts note the focus on Trump while there are many other figures in the book and investigation.
• Critique the DOJ’s handling: “Why is this happening? What is the point? Why is so much money and time going into just not coming out with very direct answers?”
• Dr. Dobson: “We do know that we have not gotten real honest answers.”

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “She seems to have more compassion for the fish in the sea than human beings.”
  — Podcast Host, [06:42]

• “He’s feeding her information and taking care of her answers.”
  — Dr. Dobson (on Todd Blanche), [24:38]

• “If you can remember the name of a helicopter, I’m pretty sure you’re going to remember the faces of powerful individuals you interacted with. And $7 million.”
  — Dr. Dobson, [25:49]

• “She’s not consistently inconsistent, as we would see from someone who endured trauma over time…her peasant. It doesn’t sound like an insightful person who was wrongly accused, who was manipulated and trafficked herself. No, none of that is present.”
  — Dr. Dobson, [48:53]

• “It’s not transparent, and it’s not authentic at all. And that’s one thing we do know. We have a lot of questions, but we do know that we have not gotten real honest answers.”
  — Dr. Dobson, [51:24]

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Time | Segment | |----------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:11 | Introduction of Ghislaine Maxwell’s background & significance of the tapes | | 05:28 | Contrasting Maxwell’s public speaking with her deposition demeanor | | 07:42 | Critique of Blanche’s interview style and agenda | | 10:24 | Maxwell’s first recollection of meeting Epstein | | 13:28 | Maxwell’s emphatic denial about Prince Andrew | | 21:39 | Discussion of suspicious money transfers ($7.4 million payment) | | 25:56 | The disputed “masseuse list” and claims of evidence contamination | | 31:37 | Detailed examination of ‘massage room’ testimony | | 40:14 | The ‘Birthday Book’, notable names, and shifting memory | | 47:06 | The podcast’s perspective on systemic justice failures and investigative avoidance | | 51:24 | Closing thoughts on inauthenticity and lack of honest answers |

---

Analysis & Takeaways

• The deposition tapes reveal a Maxwell who is highly calculating and selective with her memory, often pivoting between confident clarity and vague forgetfulness.
• Blanche’s questioning is criticized for its softness, apparent coaching, and failure to probe meaningfully—a dynamic suggesting the interview’s aim was not to extract truth for justice but to manage public perception and legal exposure.
• Inconsistencies and manipulation run throughout Maxwell’s deposition—at odds with any appearance of remorse or victimization. Dr. Dobson sees no markers of trauma survivor psychology, instead finding evidence of practiced deception.
• The episode is saturated with frustration at the broader systemic avoidance of directness or accountability in the Epstein-Maxwell saga, raising questions about whose interests are being served.

---

Final Reflections

• Dr. Dobson concludes: “Why is so much money and time going into just not coming out with very direct answers…We have a lot of questions, but we do know that we have not gotten real honest answers.” [51:24]
• The hosts urge listeners to “see the forest for the trees” and demand more transparency, truth, and justice—especially for survivors and the broader public.

---

This summary covers all core topics and notable segments from the episode, with key quotes, insights, and timestamps to equip listeners and non-listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the discussion.

Transcript

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Hi, I'm Morgan. I have three kids. I have an IQ of 160. I work with the cops.

[Todd Blanche]

You're a cop?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

No. They do sign my paychecks.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Kaitlin Olsen returns in High Potential, the number one drama.

[Todd Blanche]

She was abducted. You knew that already, didn't you?

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Yeah, I thought it'd be nice to let you have this one.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

And one of the best new crime procedurals.

[Todd Blanche]

You're waiting on me to leave so you can poke around without a warrant, aren't you?

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Yeah.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

High potential. New Tuesdays, 10. 9 Central on ABC and stream on Hulu.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Hey, it's Karen and Georgia, and we just celebrated our 500th episode of My Favorite Murder. That's 500 podcasts filled with true crime comedy and some light girl math. We're about to podcast for you. Watch this. We have to think of something to say after. Welcome every week. And we're doing it every week for 10 years. Almost 10 years. 10 years. 10. That's what 500 episodes sounds like. New episodes every Thursday. Listen to My Favorite murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Goodbye from the studio.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

Who brought you the Piketon massacre and murder 101? This is incels.

[Todd Blanche]

I am a loser. If I was a woman, I wouldn't date me either.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

From the dark corners of the web, an emerging mindset.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

If I can't have you girls, I will destroy you.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

A kind of subculture. A hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against women. A seed of loneliness explodes.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

I just hate myself. I don't know why you girls aren't attracted to me, but I will punish.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

You all for it.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

At a deadly tipping point, Incels will.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Be added to the terrorism guide.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Police say a driver intentionally drove into.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

A crowd, killing 10 people.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Tomorrow is the day of retribution. I will have my revenge.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

This is Incels. Listen to season one of Incels on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. It was an unimaginable crime.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

It's four consecutive live terms for Bryan.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Kohberger, who killed the four University of Idaho students.

[Todd Blanche]

The defense are on a sinking ship. It was clear at that point he was out of options.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

Nearly 30 months of silence until bombshell development.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Bryan Kohberger appearing, set to accept a plea deal just five weeks before his quadruple murder trial was set to start.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

No trial, no testimony.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

He has pleaded guilty to five criminal.

[Todd Blanche]

Counts, one of burglary and then four counts of murder.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

In this final season, we return to Moscow with interviews from those still searching for answers.

[Todd Blanche]

Why did the prosecution take this? They were holding all the cars.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

How on earth could you make a deal? What message does that send?

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

Listen to season three of the Idaho Massacre on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Oh, hey. Welcome back to intentionally disturbing with Dr. Leslie. Today I have the honor of working with Tara Palmieri, independent journalist. And together with Tara's team, we. We pulled the Ghislaine Maxwell audio tapes of her deposition recently with Todd Blanche. So over six hours of deposition and we get a few clips and wow, even in these clips, I wanted to scream while I was listening to them. So who is Ghislaine Maxwell? I'm going to say she's a major con artist. In 2020, she was sentenced to decades in prison because of federal charges. She was a sex trafficker. She was the right hand man, or woman, as we should say, to Jeffrey Epstein. But somehow, recently, she gets to have this really, really long deposition with Todd Blanche and a lot of other people in the room, as you'll see, because you can hear their voices, although they haven't been disclosed to us. I was informed one FBI agent was in the room. So at least we know that she couldn't lie. Or if she lied, then it would be perjury. Well, that. Well, we get into that because she's very careful about that. She goes through all of this and all of a sudden she is quietly moved to a lower security facility. She is no longer registering as a sex offender, and just a few days ago, she is seen with new sneakers on, walking to her Pilates class. Listen in. And I hope you learned something about the truth behind Ghislaine Maxwell and how even your voice can give you away.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

I would love to get your take, Leslie, on what to make of these tapes. But first, I think we need to hear and see what Ghislaine Maxwell is like when she is not in prison, being interviewed by, you know, the number two in the Justice Department, hoping that whatever she says can clear the President and help her move on from a lower max security into possible, you know, ankle bracelet, house arrest, and then being pardoned altogether.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

The reality today, though, is that the current law of the seas is based on an outdated mindset. It says that the high seas can be exploited by the few, so long as we all still have the right of access. It's an area that's not governed by a single entity. It's a mess of incoherent laws, unenforced laws and no laws. That's half our planet we're talking about. Activities are largely unregulated and unmonitored.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Okay, what do you make of that? I mean, I hear a very confident woman. She's on a stage talking to a number of people about this ocean charity, Tara Marr, that she used to sort of launder her name after the Epstein. After Epstein was arrested for procuring a minor for prostitution. And it was became known in the press that she was a part of it. But what do you hear or see when you. When you look at that woman?

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

I see a completely different woman than we hear in those tapes. And I'm just struck by the irony of her saying that overfishing is dangerous because we. We don't want to harm all of those little precious fish in the ocean. When she handed little precious fish to giant monsters for many years.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yeah. Actual human beings. So she seems to have more compassion for the fish in the sea.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Exactly.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Than human beings.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

The irony is. Is epic. But I mean, she's. She's speaking fast. She's in front of an audience. She's on point. She's hitting every word. She's. If you watch the video, she's engaging in eye contact, she's animated her body move. I mean, she's confident, she's alive.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And she doesn't sound like a victim hiding.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Not at all.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

This is something that you do regularly. You interview criminals as part of your work in forensic psychology. Because you want to get down to the heart of what they did. You want the truth. Right. So I just want to go through what her first question. What. What the first question was to Galen Maxwell from Todd Blanche.

[Todd Blanche]

I'm not. If there's a path that. A question that I'm not asking, that you think should be asked, I invite you to volunteer. Same thing goes to your lawyers. Just to start a little bit, very briefly, can you talk about when you first met Mr. Epstein? I know that goes back a while. And just very generally talk about your relationship with Mr. Epstein from the time you met him all the way up until. Until his death.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

There are so many things wrong with that. I mean, he's setting her up. He's putting her in a frame, telling her where to go, what not to answer. Keep it general. He sounds meek. He doesn't sound like he's in charge at all. And he's talking slower than he would normally talk. The whole thing is just setting up. You know, be careful what you say right now. Yeah.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

I mean, he sounds like he's he knows too, that this is going to be released publicly. Right. That these tapes are going to be made what are going to be made public because he did end up releasing them.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

He sounds nervous. And for a trial attorney to sound nervous in something he's done a million times, that is very fishy to me.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

How would you have set that up?

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Well, you do want to have open ended questions, right? You want them to hang themselves, basically, you know, you're looking for all of these items of the personality to show very, very similar to a psychopathy inventory. You want them to be charismatic, you want them to be boastful, you want to catch them in lies. So I would definitely leave it open ended, but I would say, you know, I'm in charge. This is open ended. Go ahead and speak. I wouldn't say rein it in. Let's be very general, let's be very careful. He opens it as he should, and then he closes it before she even answers.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

I mean, why would you want to be general or open, not specific about a massive sex criminal operation? I mean, don't you want to get down to the truth? If it's Department of Justice, don't you want justice? And if this woman has been convicted of and indicted of being a part of a sex trafficking operation that the FBI says included as many as a thousand victims, why would you want her to be general? I mean, she could have leads.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

And, and as we'll see in the tapes, there are moments where he can take general to specific and he doesn't.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Okay, we'll have to keep listening. Let's listen to Glenn's recollection of meeting Jeffrey Epstein. It's his first question to her.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

And so sometime in 1991, now we're in 1991. I met him at his offices in Man Salon. And I think the most memorable thing I can think about is he was wearing a tie, which he didn't often drew me at heavy, a giant tomato ketchup thing. So I was like, wow, okay. And that was.

[Todd Blanche]

How was your meeting at his office for you to meet him just personally or were you. Were you there for work related reasons?

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

No, I knew nothing about. I. He just invited me to come and have tea and I was like, tea? That's English. Okay. But what was unusual was in his offices. So I went to his offices and we met and I found him very engaging. And.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

What'D you make of that?

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

So much. I mean, the moment he said, okay, he was scared. She was about to say something, he was nervous. He stopped her like okay, okay. You said enough. You said enough. And then the way she starts to take control of the conversation and conclude it with that was that they both are on the verge. They're being so careful. It is uncomfortable to me.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

They're colluding, essentially, is what you sensed?

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Yes. Maybe not. Maybe not colluding in the sense that they actually know what the other person's play is, but they know they can't.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Go somewhere, but they're trying to take care of each other in a kind of. Yeah.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Or someone else. We'll be right back after this break. Oh, hey.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

What did you make of her slopping her hand up and down while she was telling the story? Because you could hear her sort of banging her hand.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

She does. She does seem anxious. She seems unsettled. And I. I think as the more I listen to it, the more I see that, you know, she doesn't want to mess up her agenda. And her agenda is to not perjure herself, but not get in trouble and actually tell the truth, get in trouble with anybody else. So you can see that she's very, very careful. And then as her emotions catch up and her rate of speech, she's talking faster. Here she goes. She's telling the story. She always jumps back to. Maybe I don't remember. That's my recollection. Some kind of soft landing that isn't going to be perjury.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And then the kind of awkward laughing. Like I said, it's an anxious laughing. Right.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

It's. It sounds to me like an anxious laughing. But still she maintains a fondness of that moment with him in his tie, which is so disgusting.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Right. All right, let's move on to the next one.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

All right, first of all, let's just state, I did not introduce him to Prince Andrew. I did not introduce him to Prince Andrew or to Sarah Ferguson. That is a flat untruth. Start with that.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Okay, That's a moment. What did you make of that?

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

So that was her being confident. Right? That was her saying, you know, I don't want to get in trouble for this. I know this. I remember this. I'm clear on this. She laid her ground and he let her. He. He didn't control her at all. He didn't press her.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

It's kind of the opposite of victim Galen, which is what you heard from the beginning. Right.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

I don't know why certain clips were released and certain clips were not. But this was the one clip where she was confident. This was the TED Talk clip. This is what somebody wanted us to hear.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

She Was saying it for someone else.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Yes, that the reason that clip was there was because she was very matter of factly saying something. And as we'll see, that changes.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yep. Okay, so let's play the next one.

[Todd Blanche]

Prince Andrew himself, who suggested that he met Jeffrey Epstein through you.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

I think that's true. So. Well, it's true that Andrew said that. No, I'm sure it's true because I, I'm English and my close friends are all close friends with Sarah and Andrew. And I would not say that I was close friends with Andrew before, but certainly we were friendly and certainly his best friends, some of them very, very close with me. And I think that my friendship, my me being present or me is what made Andrew like Jeffrey Moore.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

What do you make of that?

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Well, who was that other voice that said something like I can't believe you said that or so it was Andrew. Did you hear that other voice?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

I didn't actually.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

There's a third voice and I know her attorneys were present. There's a third female voice. She sounds older and she was genuinely shocked that Maxwell said that. And then we've got Maxwell changing her cadence. She changes the way she talks. She over elaborates because now she knows. Whoops, I up. Oopsie. Now I've got to explain that because I'm English, that's why I knew him. But if you listen very carefully, there is somebody else who is saying hold back.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yeah. Okay, let's listen to that sound again.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

It's true that Andrew said that. No, I'm sure it's true because it's.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

True that Andrew said that. That was not her voice.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Nope, that wasn't her voice. That was somebody else.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

That was somebody interrupting her in this high profile interview because they wanted to guide what she was saying. That does not happen in real life. In a deposition, no one can cut you off. And if an attorney witnessed that, they would be there in a second. Why did you say that? What did that mean? I object to that. Like where the was Todd?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

What would an innocent person sound like?

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

They would be consistent, the tone would be consistent. And I think the biggest part for me would be emotions would be relevant to the topic at hand. Her emotions are quite erratic. She's giggling, she's overly confident, she's pretty flat. It doesn't make sense to the topic when the overall topic is, girl, you're in prison, you might be in PR prison for life. You know, you're trying to hide from the world that you know all these big players that were little girls and you're giggling and nothing's consistent.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Also, she's the one who acknowledges that Jeffrey Epstein was involved in sex crimes. She just says she wasn't a part of it. So, like, all. All of this should be very uncomfortable and. And should have a certain reference to it. Right?

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Right. I mean, she should be anxious and uncomfortable or she should be confident. God knows she's had enough time to practice for this. Right? Like, she's a master con artist. She's been trained by amazingly successfully psychopathic people. Why is she flipping and flopping unless she's looking around that room, looking at people's reactions and getting some guidance.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Right. And also, if this person is the reason you are spending the rest of your life in jail or at least the next 20 years, wouldn't you know or try to remember or flip through in your mind every single moment that you had together and how you ended up like this, where you are.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

And. It's time for a break. Hi, I'm Morgan. I have three kids. I have an IQ of 160. I work with the cops.

[Todd Blanche]

You're a cop?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

No, but they do sign my paychecks.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Kaitlin Olson returns. And in High Potential, the number one drama.

[Todd Blanche]

She was abducted. You knew that already, didn't you?

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Yeah, I thought it'd be nice to let you have this one.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

And one of the best new crime procedurals.

[Todd Blanche]

You're waiting on me to leave so you can poke around without a warrant, aren't you?

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Yeah. High potential. New Tuesdays, 10, 9 Central on ABC and stream on Hulu.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Hey, it's Karen in Georgia, and we just celebrated our 500th episode of My Favorite Murder. That's 500 podcasts filled with true crime comedy and some light girl math. We're about to podcast for you. Watch this. We have to think of something to say after welcome every week. And we're doing it every week for 10 years.

[Todd Blanche]

Almost 10 years.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

10 years. 10. That's what 500 episodes sounds like. New episodes every Thursday. Listen to my favorite murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Goodbye from the studio.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

Who brought you the Piketon massacre and murder 101. This is incels.

[Todd Blanche]

I am a loser. If I was a woman, I wouldn't date me either.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

From the dark corners of the web, an emerging mindset.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

If I can't have you girls, I will destroy you.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

A kind of subculture, a hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against women. A seed of loneliness explodes.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

I just hate myself. I don't Know why you girls aren't attracted to me, but I will punish.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

You all for it.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

At a deadly tipping point, Incels will.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Be added to the terrorism guide.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Police say a driver intentionally drove into.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

A crowd, killing 10 people.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Tomorrow is the day of retribution. I will have my revenge.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

This is Incels. Listen to season one of Incels on the iHeartRadio, Apple, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. It was an unimaginable crime.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

It's four consecutive live terms for Bryan.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Kohberger, who killed the four University of Idaho students.

[Todd Blanche]

The defense are on a sinking ship. It was clear at that point he was out of options.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

Nearly 30 months of silence until bombshell development.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Bryan Kohberger appearing sequence.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Set to accept a plea deal just five weeks before his quadruple murder trial was set to start.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

No trial, no testimony.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

He has pleaded guilty to five criminal.

[Todd Blanche]

Counts, one of burglary, and then four counts of murder.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

In this final season, we return to Moscow with interviews from those still searching for answers.

[Todd Blanche]

Why did the prosecution take this? They were holding all the cars.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

How on earth could you make a deal? What message does that send?

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

Listen to season three of the Idaho Massacre on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Oh, hey, you're here. The only thing I can think of is that if we don't have consistency and we have doubling down or we have this. Oh, I'm not quite sure. It's because we don't have truth.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Okay, let's go on to the next sound.

[Todd Blanche]

Okay, so the government had evidence that even as late as 2007, he paid you a lot of money.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

What was that? What was the.

[Todd Blanche]

Like several millions and millions of dollars in 2007. $7.4 million, I think.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

What was that for? Was it. Was that the head of.

[Todd Blanche]

That was. That's my question.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

I'm sorry. So in 2007, I think that's probably the helicopter. That could have been. That could have been the helicopter, the Sikorsky, those big chunks like that. I don't personally have any memory of receiving a check from him for $7 million. I just don't. But I would have to. I know. So the answer to your question, if.

[Todd Blanche]

It went into your pocket, I would.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Remember if it went. He never paid me to. For services that you just described $7 million to. For any nefarious.

[Todd Blanche]

Yeah, I think I understand what you've said about being on the payroll and help him helping you with businesses and giving you a lot of life things along the Way you travel with him, ate with him is, you know, but. But there is the. This, These massive amounts of money, one time payments that I don't.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

You'd have to trace that. Right. So I, I don't believe that came into my account or I had any control. I have no memory of that. I've. No, no.

[Todd Blanche]

Well, but if there's records that show up coming to your account, it sounds like what you're saying is that not putting aside your. You have no memory of that money being yours. Like, you didn't. That money is not.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

No, I wouldn't be like, oh, yippee, let me go, I got $7 million. I'm going to go buy myself a yacht. No. Or, I don't know, something else or move it to some other. No, I don't think. I don't think. If you look, you. You'll have to check. Well, obviously you will. I don't think you'll find that money moving in any. To any account other mine or. It shouldn't show. I don't believe. Anyway, as far as I read, it wouldn't show me spending it.

[Todd Blanche]

Right.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Does that make sense?

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

What the Was that?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Can we tap dance more?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Also, who doesn't remember getting that much money?

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Well, she does remember because she said that she had two options, that she was gonna go buy a yacht or move it. But then she was like, oh, that sounds a little too much like, I knew I got it. Well, you check if I got it. Oh, let's giggle. Let's join. Let's manipulate the interviewer. Oh, okay. Let's kind of get him off his game a little bit. And let's go back to owning the interview. And I'm not really sure if I ever got that money. I guess you'll find out, right, because you're so big and powerful. It's such a manipulative moment.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And Todd Blanche is like, string me along, please. Save me. Throw me a life jacket.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

I mean, I would have.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

You know.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

He says 7.4, I think. Why didn't he say 6.8? How does she react? Does she clarify? I mean, why isn't he testing her at all? He's not. He's feeding her information and taking care of her answers.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

That's interesting. And I'm guessing when you interview criminals, you. You never do that. You're never.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Well, a big. A big part of assessing lies is saying the same shit in different ways over time and seeing how people react and how they answer. Right. Because it's really hard to lie to One person. And it's really hard to lie to a bunch of people. And we know several people were in that room. Right. She's also lying to the world. She's lying to documents, she's lying to history. She's lying to her lawsuit. Right. She has to be very careful because her story has changed so many times and so many different ears are on it. And she's trying to speak to everyone at once. So she's tap dancing around and not being clear in a precise answer. Now, if you can remember the name of a helicopter, I'm pretty sure you're going to remember the faces of powerful individuals that you interacted with. And $7 million.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yeah, that is very true. She knew the name of the helicopter. Very astute. Okay, let's move on to the next one.

[Todd Blanche]

So there was. There's a list, a list of multiple masseuses that, that is floating around. I think you had new discovery. I think you were just talking about that, that list. Do you know how that list was created?

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

No. That. All that stuff that came out of that book, I now find suspect.

[Todd Blanche]

It's. It's far. It's part of the story you just told us.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Yes. Now, I'm not saying it's all fake. I don't know what's real, what's not. I don't know what name is true. Now that it's been to my mind anyway, now that it has been without a doubt contaminated and possibly fraudulent.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Without a doubt. It's painful to listen to. I mean, he opens with, it's just floating around. Let me just lay that out there. And then he continues with this lack of confidence that it even is there. But she.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

It's actually kind of pathetic. Like if I knew someone that sounded like that, I would, I would think they were in a very uncomfortable position. You're the number two person in the Justice Department.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Yes. I mean, at one point he says, I think you were just talking about this. Were you? If not, can you. It's just not how you would interview someone as a psychologist or a lawyer.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yeah. Because you work with a lot of lawyers. So this is something you actually coach them on sometimes. Right?

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

I coach them. I'm always testifying. I'm on the stand. I go through cross. If you want information, there are ways to get it. He did not.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

What did you make from without a doubt? What does it mean when someone says without a doubt or.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

I think there's a cult here. Yeah. There's a cultural component with the language. Because without a doubt, you know means a little. It's just a saying in England and in different countries as well. But I mean, she wanted to make sure, without a doubt that she let the world know that whatever information you are getting about this list, you cannot trust. But again, oh, wait, I don't really remember actually being there or being a part of any of this, so. But without a doubt, it's not true. I don't remember little girl. I don't remember taking her underwear off. But without a doubt.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a really important piece of evidence too, in the case against her, which her lawyers are, by the way, taking to the Supreme Court to try to overturn.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

I'm sure her eye contact was on point with every word she said and where she would take that. And that's why we don't have video of this.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

But we do know she's smashing the table around with her hand.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Yeah. We're gonna take a quick break and we'll be right back. This is an I heart podcast. So do you want to look and.

[Todd Blanche]

Feel your best this summer?

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Well, don't just think skin deep, think cell deep with Prolon.

[Todd Blanche]

Prolon is a plant based nutrition program featuring soups, snacks and beverages that nourish the body while keeping it in a fasting state which triggers cellular rejuvenation and renewal. Target fat loss, support lean muscle and reset your metabolism so you look and.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Feel your best all summer long.

[Todd Blanche]

Prolon is science backed nutrition that can help change your relationship with food in just five days. Get 15% off plus a $40 bonus gift when you subscribe [e-mail] iheart that's prolonlife.com iheartra hi, I'm Morgan.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

I have three kids. I have an IQ of one hundred and sixty. I work with the cops.

[Todd Blanche]

You're a cop?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

No, but they do sign my paychecks.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Kaitlin Olson returns in High Potential, the number one drama.

[Todd Blanche]

She was abducted. You knew that already, didn't you?

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Yeah, I thought it'd be nice to let you have this one.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

And one of the best new crime procedurals.

[Todd Blanche]

You're waiting on me to leave so you can poke around without a warrant, aren't you?

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Yeah. High potential. New Things Tuesdays 10, 9 Central on ABC and stream on Hulu.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Hey, it's Karen and Georgia and we just celebrated our 500th episode of My Favorite Murder. That's 500 podcasts filled with true crime comedy and some light girl math. We're about to podcast for you. Watch this. We have to think of something to say after welcome every week. And we're doing it every week for 10 years. Almost 10 years. 10 years. 10. That's what 500 episodes say. Sounds like new episodes every Thursday. Listen to my favorite murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Goodbye.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

On this podcast, Incels, we unpack an emerging mindset.

[Todd Blanche]

I am a loser. If I was a woman, I wouldn't date me. Out there.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

A hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against women at a deadly tipping point.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Tomorrow is the day of retribution, the day in which I will have my revenge.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

This is Incels. Listen to season one of Incels on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Oh, hey. She sounds oppressed by some type of a desire from someone, like she's not quite sure what she's saying and what she can say, what she wants to say, what she knows. I mean, the overall theme is we do not have consistency out of this woman. This. She's not old. This was her life. She wasn't on substances. She remembers things very clearly, and at times, she has no memory. It doesn't make sense.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Okay, let's keep going.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Were you ever in a massage room.

[Todd Blanche]

With him, with a masseuse that was.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Naked or giving him any sexual favors?

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

I never saw that. That I remember. Okay. Did you. Did you ever. Did any of the masseuses ever discuss with you giving. That they gave sexual favors to Epstein? No.

[Todd Blanche]

Did you ever see an underage girl go into a massage room with Mr. Epstein?

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

No.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

If you had seen that, what would you have done?

[Todd Blanche]

Would you have left?

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

I can't even conceive of. I can't imagine what I would have done.

[Todd Blanche]

All right, I'm sorry. No, that's okay.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Okay.

[Todd Blanche]

Did you ever observe Mr. Epstein masturbating during a massage?

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Yes. I mean, when I'd seen him on a massage table, I had seen him masturbate. I don't know if there was a masseuse present, but I've seen him on a massage. Okay, Sorry.

[Todd Blanche]

Did you ever see him masturbate with a masseuse? You know, with. With a naked woman either giving a massage, reporting to give him a massage?

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

I don't remember seeing that.

[Todd Blanche]

Did you give him massages, by the way? I mean, there's a photo of you rubbing his feet, and I think I never.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

I certainly have been in the massage room with him, and I have certainly rubbed his feet when he would talk, but I was not a Masseuse. And I didn't perform massage on him.

[Todd Blanche]

Did you participate in sexual activity with him with a masseuse, like, at the same time?

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

No.

[Todd Blanche]

And so does the testimony. I don't know if there was testimony, but the women who have said that that happened categorically. That's not true.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

That is categorically not true. I just want to say that I have been. I mean, I remember there'd be times when he'd be getting a massage, I would be in the room. I could be on his feet, and somebody else could be on his feet, and we could be talking. So there is that.

[Todd Blanche]

That's not. You're not talking about something that's sexual. You're talking about literally just rubbing his feet.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Yes.

[Todd Blanche]

Okay, but I mean, that's not what I'm talking about.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

There could be. Sometimes the women might be topless who are giving that. So you could say that was sexual in that context.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

So we end with a topless young girl massaging Epstein while Glain is massaging his toes. Yet we began with. I've never seen anything sexual. I've never been in a massage room. That I can remember. Don't perjure yourself, Glenn.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

That I can remember.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

She said that I can't remember. Yeah.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

That I can't remember. Yeah.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Oh, no. She said, I never saw that. That I can remember. That was the beginning. Then we end with qualifier.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Is what they use often to not purge themselves.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Yep.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

I can't recall. Or that I can remember.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

And she couldn't maintain it. Even as oddly bashful the lawyer was. Why are we bashful? You're sitting in prison as a top person in our government with one of the top offenders, and you're bashful. And who. Okay. So he says at one point about sex, something. And then he apologizes to her and says, I'm sorry. And then there's a third voice again. There is someone else's voice that says it's okay. And then they continue. Who are all these people?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Sending a woman who's been indicted for trafficking.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Yes.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And is in jail.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Why is he apologizing?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

He cuts her off at times when she's about to actually speak. Who cuts off a person that you're trying to get information from?

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

I would fully understand if this were time limited and he was getting paid by the hour, but this guy's on salary, so we're not worried about that. She's not going anywhere. He wasn't there to get information. If he had, he could have gotten.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Almost felt like he was feeding her Lines.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Yes, he was. He said categorically not true. Then she said it. He didn't just feed her lines. He told her where to go. He told her when to stop. He told her what to say, and so did whoever else was in that room.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

I mean, I know that you've probably seen this Epstein book that has just come out, which is disgusting and depraved and shows that so many of his friends. A book that Glenn Maxwell, by the way, put together has a section called Children, in which there is a sexy girl picture of what looks like a child where they're posing and you see lots of young girls massaging Epstein's feet topless. There's, you know, even a check with a girl, and it says that, you know, she's been sold to Donald Trump or from Donald Trump to Jeffrey Epstein. You know, obviously, so many references to wet dreams and sex, sexual depravity and children and breasts and women and. And there's a picture of Ghislaine Maxwell in the. In the pool with Jeffrey Epstein, topless.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

But, yeah, we're gonna take a quick break and we'll be right back. Hi, I'm Morgan. I have three kids. I have an IQ of 160. I work with the cops.

[Todd Blanche]

You're a cop?

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

No, but they do sign my paychecks.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Caitlin Helen Olsen returns in High Potential, the number one drama.

[Todd Blanche]

She was abducted. You knew that already, didn't you?

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Yeah, I thought it'd be nice to let you have this one.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

And one of the best new crime procedurals.

[Todd Blanche]

You're waiting on me to leave so you can poke around without a warrant, aren't you?

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Yeah.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

High potential. New Tuesdays, 10, 9 Central on ABC and stream on Hulu.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Hey, it's Karen and Georgia, and we just celebrated our 500th episode of My Favorite Murder. That's 500 podcasts filled with true crime comedy and some light girl math. We're about to podcast for you. Watch this. We have to think of something to say after welcome every week. And we're doing it every week for 10 years.

[Todd Blanche]

Almost 10 years.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

10 years. 10. That's what 500 episodes sounds like. New episodes every Thursday. Listen to my favorite murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Goodbye.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

On this podcast incels, we unpack an emerging mindset.

[Todd Blanche]

I am a loser. If I was a woman, I wouldn't date the either.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

And a hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against women at a deadly tipping point.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Tomorrow is the day of retribution. The day in which I will have my revenge.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

This is Incels. Listen to season one of Incels on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It was an unimaginable crime.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

It's four consecutive live terms for Bryan.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Kohberger, who killed a 4. 4 University of Idaho students.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

Nearly 30 months of silence until Bombshell.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Development Bryan Coburger has agreed to plead guilty.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

No trial, no testimony.

[Todd Blanche]

The defense are on the sinking ship. This isn't the justice you wanted, but this is justice.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

Listen to season three of the Idaho Massacre on the iHeartRadio, Apple, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

This is an I heart podcast. Oh, hey. I think the best thing that I've seen is somebody. It was online, but somebody said, here's your birthday book. Happy birthday from all your friends, except this one. This one's fake. What? Like, I'm just gonna give you a fake one. You're. This birthday card's fake because we want to make sure that this one was in here. It's just. It's disgusting. If you look at the sketches, they. There is a point where they are drawing the breasts of the girls to be present, but very small. They're drawing bodies consistent with a pedophilic interest. They are prepubescent bodies.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

The school girl thing is a big theme as well.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

On their knees, ready to please.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

All right, let's keep going.

[Todd Blanche]

There's recently been reports about a birthday book that you assembled for Mr. Epstein, I think, for his 50th birthday in 2020.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

That's true.

[Todd Blanche]

What do you. What do you know about that?

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

So my mom did a birthday book for my father at his 60th, and when I Epstein, would talk about his 50th, he said, I don't know what I'm going to do. And I said, well, there's a nice thing. So my mum did this book for my dad. He said, I love that idea. He said, can you help coordinate it? And he organized who. He called a lot of the people himself. I coordinated the putting together of the book, and some, in some instances, I called people that asked them to.

[Todd Blanche]

What was in the book? Like, what was the ask of the. Of the people you called?

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

It's his 50th birthday. Same thing you want on a piece of paper. Okay. I mean, nothing more.

[Todd Blanche]

Right? I mean, it was an obvious question. But you. Basically, his folks were invited to send something to you to celebrate his birthday.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yes.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

To say happy birthday with, like, have a wonderful day or something else. There Was no, there was no ask. But I wasn't responsible for everybody in that book. And there were people that he would ask himself to contribute.

[Todd Blanche]

Do you remember some. Do you remember specific names of individuals who did send letters or who did contribute?

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

It's been so long. I want to tell you today, I don't remember. I honestly don't remember.

[Todd Blanche]

The article talks about several names, but including the focus of the article, which is on Donald Trump. Do you remember President Trump submitting a letter or a card or a note?

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

I don't.

[Todd Blanche]

Do you think the article. Well, do you remember seeing that book or any portion of the letters in your discovery in New York?

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Yes.

[Todd Blanche]

Okay. What do you remember seeing?

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

I remember there was. There were some portions of that book, but what surprised me. Yeah. What surprised me was how few there were, because I thought if you had those, where are the rest? There was none of Mr. Trump, in your discovery. In my discovery, sorry, President Trump, there was nothing from.

[Todd Blanche]

And do you remember. But separate, apart from your discovery, do you remember one way or the other whether President Trump submitted a letter for his 50th birthday?

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

I do not remember.

[Todd Blanche]

And the, the article that references the letter talks about like a. Sounds like either naked, a picture of naked woman or something like. Like that. Do you have any recollection of that?

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

I do not, but just no, I don't.

[Todd Blanche]

Do you remember. So what do you remember seeing from your discovery around the book? Like you said, portions of it or some of the pages.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

I remember there were. Maybe I just want to say about the discovery that I had about. Maybe this is an exaggeration, I'm not sure, but in my mind, it's about close to 5 million pages, 5 million documents. It was a lot. And of that giant document dump that I received, I was only maybe as much as 30 to 35% I was never able to access. And this is documented on at the court. And so I cannot say that I saw everything, because I didn't.

[Todd Blanche]

Yeah, Okay.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

I just want you to know that. And I think that that was by design.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

So now she's throwing other people under the bus. Yeah, it was by design.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

The DOJ knew that Trump was in that book, by the way, even when he denied it because it was in discovery in the case. But I believe that Todd Blanche went into that interview knowing that that book was real and that, that, that that President Trump had, had, had contributed to the book. He says he. That it's fake or he didn't, you know, take it for what it's worth, even though now we have seen it. It matches with the Wall Street Journal reported. But it's interesting to hear him interview when I think we should assume that he knew that Donald Trump was in the book. What do you, what do you make of that? Knowing that?

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Yeah. Again, we, we have a short sound clip, yet we still have massive inconsistencies in so many ways. I mean, we start the clip with a very long pause after his question. All right, let's, let's get our ducks in a row before we go to this one. And then she quickly wants to make herself very lovable. She talks about her mom. I did this. I, because I love people. You know, this is what you do.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And you love a normal human being. I have a family too. I'm just like everyone else.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

These are also, these are little children naked in a book. But I love my mother and I'm normal. Okay, so, but then he starts with, you know, do you remember? Do you remember? And he's not getting the answers he wants. He's not getting, it's not going the way right. She's shut down. She's saying no. She's saying no. And then he kind of moves to what do you remember? And then he's quick to really cap that off. And she doesn't remember. But at the beginning she remembers the.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yes or no question, which is like, yeah, you're not supposed to start with yes or no questions. I even know that as a journalist.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Yes. So she, she doesn't remember, but she knows that she did it because of this long late story about the love of her parents. And that we do this right. And then all of a sudden we don't remember what's in it. What I would have done is had very open ended questions for her. So we have this book, we all know what's in it. Nothing's redacted. What do you have to say about that? Where are you with all of this? Look at, like, imagine these graphic pictures now. How do you feel about being a part of handing over this book? Do you have any emotions around this? Are you human? You're talking about your mom. What would your parents think of this?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Where's the humanity in this conversation? And why are we talking about Trump when we could have talked about anyone? There weren't. Trump wasn't the only person that could have been questioned. There were so many other contributors, allegedly, potentially to this book. Why aren't we asking about them? Why is this so focused on him?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Because then they'd have to actually do a real investigation into The Epstein files.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

God forbid. God forbid we bring justice to these survivors.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yeah. I've already been through so much. It's interesting that she started by saying, like, his folks were invited, his family. She really humanizes him. Despite the charges that she knows that he pled guilty to.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Procuring a minor for prostitute. She really, like, you can tell from her answers that she still holds him in high regard. She's not like, I'm. I'm disgusted by it. I. I didn't know how, like, foul it was, but, like, is that weird to you, or is that something that I. That a criminal would do? I don't. I don't understand.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

It's not weird to me, necessarily, because, you know, I know a lot of us don't believe in Stockholm syndrome. Or maybe we do. Maybe it exists. I don't know. When you align with your captor and love them, but when you're away from your captor for such a long period of time and you're seeking mental health therapy, your story should change. Your view of your captor should change. And her peasant. It doesn't sound like an insightful person who was wrongly accused, who is angry that she was put in this position, who was manipulated and trafficked herself. No, none of that is present.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yeah. No. You think she, though, wanted to sound like a victim, though, at the same time, like that's what she hoped.

[Ghislaine Maxwell]

Or.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

A victim of her circumstances. Like she's been unfairly accused but not a victim of Jeffrey Epstein.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Yes. I think there's a. There's a meekness and a softness to her voice which she plays with at times, and she alters depending on the content. You know, where's the win for me if I answer it like this? And she has a motive, and I don't think she's always careful to cover the motive, which is, you know, to get out. Right. I don't want to get in any more trouble, and I want to get out. But it's not consistent. There's so many inconsistencies in that clip. But she does mention that she thought the book would be bigger. She has an image in her mind of the book. She was surprised by what she was shown. She's aware that things are left out. She draws upon the numbers and statistics. That is a very good memory. Like, she. She's on point. She knows what she's talking about. But then at other times, remember some things. Yeah, she can remember some things, and that's not how memory works. It's not a consistent portrayal of trauma, altered Memories. She's not consistently inconsistent, as we would see somebody who endured trauma over time.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Interesting. Any last thoughts?

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

I mean, my thoughts are that I don't know what this theater. I don't know what this dog and pony show is. It's all over the place. But we have to step back and see the forest for the trees. Why is it all over the place? Why is this happening? What is the point? Why is so much money and time going into just not coming out with very direct answers? Because we're human beings. I remember who I had sex with when I was 16. I'm sure she has a memory of massaging his toes with a naked girl. And they were talking. She said they spoke. Okay. Did that naked girl have breasts? How old do you think she was? Was her voice particularly high or low? Where are all the questions? Where's the information?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yeah, it's just like a weird scene, to be honest.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

It's not transparent, and it's not authentic at all. And that's one thing we do know. We have a lot of questions, but we do know that we have not gotten real honest answers.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Leslie, thank you for your time. I've been enlightened by this. Dr. Leslie Dobson is incredible, and she does this sort of forensic analysis regularly on a number of cases. She is a. A wonder woman. I don't know how you do it all.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

I don't get a lot of sleep. But I do it for the justice. And if it brings us closer to the truth, in any case, for any victim, for any survivor, for anybody wrongly accused, I do it to get there.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

I really admire that. And you've been personally, really helpful to me when I've been on the other end of some harassment, and you've sort of made me feel in control in a time when I felt that I didn't have a lot of control in my situation. And your knowledge about what stalkers and harassers do, it was really helpful. So thank you for that.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Good. I'm so happy that we met.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

I know.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Shout out to Rob for introducing us.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

I know it was weird circumstances, but it's a. It's been a great partnership, and I hope we continue to do more shows together.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Intentionally Disturbing is a podcast from me, Dr. Leslie. It's distributed by I Heart Me Media. Liam Billingham is the senior producer, and he also edits the show and puts up with my. Katie Cobbs does the social media, and she attempts to keep me in my lane. Not always successful. The executive producers are Paul Anderson and Scott McCarthy for Workhouse Media. Who have told me not to text them 247 7. But you know what? I'm still the boss. Thanks again for listening. We'll see you next week for more intentionally disturbing.