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- [00:00]
Dr. Leslie
This is an Iheart podcast.
- [00:05]
Jalbum Advertiser
Let's talk photos. Not just storing them, showcasing them. You've got images that matter, whether you're a photographer, a business updating your followers, or just someone who wants to share life's moments the right way. So why hand them over to Big Tech's one size fits all cloud? Big tech companies are the fast food of photo sharing. Quick, easy, but not exactly gourmet. And what about your data integrity? Jalbum.net is the photo sharing solution that puts you in control. Want to host images on your own server? You can want a layout that actually reflects your brand or style. Jalbum's customizability is unmatched. And if you're a business sharing regular photo updates with your audience, this tool was built with you in mind. But don't just take our word for it. Over 230 million web pages have been created with Jalbum, and it's got stellar reviews on Trustpilot to prove it. So head to jalbum.net to download your free software and try it out. When you're ready to upgrade, use the code PODC for 20% off your photos, your layout, your rules. Jalbum.net.
- [01:05]
Podcast Host
So what happened to Chappaquiddick? Well, it really depends on who you talk to.
- [01:09]
Ted Kennedy Expert
There are many versions of what happened in 1969 when a young Ted Kennedy drove a car into a pond and.
- [01:15]
Kennedy Family Commentator
Left a woman behind to drown.
- [01:18]
Ted Kennedy Expert
Chappaquiddick is a story of a tragic death and how the Kennedy machine took control. Every week we go behind the headlines and beyond the drama of America's royal family.
- [01:28]
Kennedy Family Commentator
Listen to United States of Canada on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [01:38]
Stonewall Historian
Maybe you've heard that Stonewall was a riot where queer people fought back against police, or that it's the reason pride is celebrated this time of year.
- [01:46]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
It was one of the most liberating things that I have ever done.
- [01:50]
Stonewall Historian
Legend says Marsha P. Johnson threw the very first brick started banging on the.
- [01:55]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
Door of the Stonewall like one. Boom.
- [01:57]
Stonewall Historian
This week on Afterlives, we'll separate the truth from the myth in the life of Marsha P. Johnson. Listen to afterlives on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts from.
- [02:10]
Alan Berg Biographer
Iheart Podcast before social media, before cable news, there was Alan Berg.
- [02:16]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
He was the first and the original shock shock.
- [02:19]
Shock Jock Expert
That scratchy, irreverent kind of way of talking to people and telling them that you're an idiot and I'm Gonna hang up on you.
- [02:26]
Alan Berg Biographer
This is Live Wire, the loud life and shocking mur of Alan Berg.
- [02:30]
Alan Berg Commentator
And he pointed to the Denver phone book and said, well, there are probably 2 million suspects.
- [02:35]
Alan Berg Biographer
Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [02:50]
Dr. Leslie
Oh, hey, you're here. Welcome back to intentionally disturbing. I'm Dr. Leslie, and today I had the honor of interviewing Rob d' Amico. Otherwise as fucking d' Amico. Rob worked for the FBI. Rob was in the military. Rob has seen decapitated people and brains coming out, and then chickens eat the brains. I can't even tell you these stories. They're incredible. And yet he remains humble and completely unable to take a compliment from me. I look forward to you hearing this episode, possibly seeing it if you're on YouTube and just getting the inside scoop on what our military guys are really doing, what they're like, and how incredible a lot of them are, especially fucking d' Amico. Oh, hey.
- [03:43]
Alan Berg Commentator
You'Re here.
- [03:44]
Dr. Leslie
I was really excited to have you on because of your work history, but also your humor and just your view on life after all of the work and shit and shenanigans that you've been in. So I want to start with a question. Oh, go ahead. Oh, okay. Now, you know, I have tons of Botox. I want to challenge you to tell me something disturbing you've experienced that would actually make my face move.
- [04:19]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
So I have to compete against Botox. That could be tough. Disturbing. There's so many. There's things that are disturbing in general that most people find disturbing, and then there's things that affect me differently because, as you probably know, when you start seeing a bunch of it, you have an ability to deal with it. You know, if you put it in a box or if you do like. I find dark humor to be one of the more relevant, you know, ones that helps me. I would say one of the most disturbing was. And. And we talked about it. I talked about it on the Surviving the Survivor podcast about the pirate case where we intercepted some pirates, 19 of them, out in the middle of the ocean. I was with The. The. The SEALs trying to rescue four Americans, and. And it didn't work. They end up killing them. And then the SEALs boarded the sailboat, and then they shot two of the pirates. And then we actually had to let that sailboat float in the ocean for about eight or nine hours. The Americans were all medevaced off trying to save them. The seals had left. I'd left two FBI guys on that sailboat for Eight hours in the, in the, in the red, in the ocean, in the sun. And then we finally, after about eight hours, got permission from FBI headquarters to process the scene and the dead pirates were still on board. So there was four dead pirates, two FBI guys. And I brought another FBI guy with me on a Navy ship, Navy boat. And we had to process it like it was a crime scene. So we had to take pictures of the victims, you know, the, the, the dead pirates as they laid because some of them were on weapons and this was going to go to court for the ones that were alive. And during the, the assault, the SEALs had, had come on the back of the sailboat and the first, the first SEAL on a pirate that jumped on his back and the SEAL behind him, it was coming up, like, took out his pistol because he was so close, and then realized, like, if I shoot him even with a pistol, it's probably going to go through the, the pirate into my buddy who's, you know, he's on his back. So he put his pistol away. And I'm looking at this from probably. I was on the, the Navy ship looking down at about 30, 40ft watching this happen. And the SEAL takes his knife out and kills him with his knife. And when we got sailboat neck. Yeah. So when we got to the sailboat, like, we, we started processing from the bottom and there was of course, the, the fat p. There was one fat pirate. I didn't think pirates were fat, but there was one fat one that was at the bottom that was on, you know, and as we roll him over, we're taking pictures because he's on top of weapons. And then we had to put him in body bags and, and pitch him over to the, the, the smaller Navy boat that was there to take them to the morgue. But the last one, because I'm kind of like, oh, I wonder which one was the, you know, the knife victim. So the last one's kind of on the back of the sailboat and as I, I grab him by the hip and the hair to roll them over so that my buddy could take pictures of what was under him. Basically I grabbed the hip and as I rolled him over, grabbing his hair, his head basically came off. Now it was held on by maybe a 2 inch strip of, you know, skin, but that SEAL literally almost cut his head off. And like, we, we kind of laughed. It was one of those things. Now that the Navy folks that were there weren't used to seeing this, but the FBI guys that I was with were, were pretty, you know, well versed in overseas operations and stuff. And, and we just started laughing. I'm like, I guess I, you know, we know which one's a knife victim and stuff. And I think the, the Navy guys started vomiting because it was, you know, decapitation's pretty, pretty nasty.
- [08:40]
Dr. Leslie
What, like. But what, what is decap? What's nasty about it?
- [08:47]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
Well, it just, I, I think anytime you see a human head removed from a body, we'll talk about another thing. It's one of those, it's beyond being able to comprehend. If you looked at the ISIS videos where they're, you know, actually decapitating, you know, people. And as you know, I'm part of the Foley foundation, and unfortunately, you know, he was decapitated on tv and his, you know, his parents have to live with that, so to speak, but it's just not a natural thing.
- [09:17]
Dr. Leslie
Share with people what. In case they don't know Foley, let's tell them.
- [09:22]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
Yeah, James Foley was a reporter that was kidnapped by isis. And then when ISIS started doing the public executions of, of the Americans, they cut him, they basically decapitated him with a knife in on video and then sent it out. So there were several of them. James was one of them. And then Diane Foley started the Foley foundation, which really was a way to get the government more involved in these kidnappings and these hostage situations, especially overseas. She's done amazing things and just a very strong woman. She wrote a book about it because she met the person who actually decapitated her son and she talks about that. And it's really one of those kind of amazing things. And unfortunately, in the FBI, we'd have to watch those videos because there's clues, there's all kinds of things in there you're looking for. And you get to a point where you just, just, you kind of, you gloss over what you're seeing, so to speak. But you know, in, in real life, it's one of those things that again, the, the removal of a head from a body is, is something that is just not natural. And what most people see it, it's, it's, it's one of those things. You see it enough times, though, then you, you kind of know how to override it. But one of the most important, I would say the most disturbing things I've actually seen all are the ones that have a relationship to me. So things that were more disturbing to me always had a, a touch point in my life. So one time we were in Iraq, and before we go into building, you sneak up on a building in the middle of the night. And a bunch of guys. There's what we call a breacher. He's one who, like, puts explosives on the door that's going to blow the door off, that you can make entry. While he's doing that, everyone takes a position looking into the building through windows to make sure that someone doesn't get up, like, hear something, doesn't get up. And, and like, starts to go to, to the door where they're. They're kind of exposed, putting the charge on it. And you're there to eliminate, you know, if there's a threat. So I'm. I'm looking into the one room and it's. It's a bedroom. You can see people sleeping on the ground. I'm on night vision goggles, so I can see very clearly in there. And all of a sudden, someone hears something and starts to get up. And then I realize it's. It's a. Probably a teenage girl because you can see. So I'm. And. And I can tell she's here, something, and she's kind of like looking to maybe walk. And I know if she goes into the hallway outside that bedroom, that that charge is on the door is going to blow the door in. And that's a dangerous place to be. And I'm like, thinking to myself, don't. Don't go out. Don't go out the door. Don't go out the door. And sure enough, she, she hears enough. She walks out into the hallway just as the explosive breach blows the door off. And I can see her get knocked down. So then once that happens, though, the assault force goes into the building. You go to secure all the rooms to make sure that there's no, you know, threats in there. And she's laying on the, on the floor, and she, she's in, you know, medical distress. Now the corpsman comes in and the unbelievable Corpsmans. This was a Navy SEAL corpsman comes in and she basically has a sucking chest wound. And he starts doing what he does best. I mean, he does great trauma. And, and when I looked down, I had the. By then we had the lights on, on our helmets and stuff, and I looked down and she was my daughter's age. She was probably, you know, 12, 13, 14 years old. And immediately I have four. Four kids. And I'm trying to think. I think it was. My oldest was probably around that age. I was probably 2006. And that's where, like, you're, you know, that's the ones that hit, like, closer to home because it, it has a connection to you. You can't. You can't disassociate with it as much. And then sometimes the bombings that we saw, like the UN building was bombed in 2004 in Iraq, and. And you're just literally, you know, it's. It's human pieces and stuff like that, and you can deal with that to. To a point until you see, you know, a young child that's just. Is just like a rag from an explosion that's on that, you know, blows an entire building block up. And. And then you always think back to, you know, how that relates to you, and those are the ones that are tougher than the other ones that you see out there. So I always think that there's, you know, when you have a connection with it, it's one of those things that. That grips you harder. And it's harder to disassociate than you can with. With other ones that you use black humor and all kinds of things that cops and, you know, soldiers and special ops guys do to. To make that go away.
- [14:45]
Dr. Leslie
So you. So there were times where it hit home and you had to really feel it, but you stayed in the job for a long time. So how did you. Where do you put.
- [14:56]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
I would say I had a way of putting you separate yourself. So it's odd. I did two years undercover against the mafia, and I went against the guy they wrote Sopranos about. And if you look at the TV show the Sopranos, what I. What I always say that he got so right was the duality of their lives, that in home, they have the same, like, family problems. You have their kids doing well in school and all this other stuff that comes up. And when they walk out that door, they flip a switch and. And they don't ever connect the two, because when they walk out the door, they're. They're dealing heroin, they're. They're trafficking young girls, or they're doing all those things that are horrible, and meanwhile, they have a family of the same type of people, but they never connect the two. And it's the same way in, like, special Ops. Like, I would be doing homework on the sat phone with my kids, they'd ask him math problem, and I'd be trying to help them solve it with it. And then, like, you hang up, and then you put your kid on, and then you fly in a helicopter to this place, and then you do things at sometimes can be horrible, and. And you never try to link the two together. You always kind of separate the two. And I thought I thought it was pretty good as mature, though. I wasn't young when I was doing this. I was in my 30s. And I think some of the PTSD that you see, like, if you're 18 and you're not able to. To make those distinctions and stuff, it can get really tough, especially when you see your friends die and you can't do anything about it. But anytime that those two worlds connect is when you start, I think, having issues now. I always say, like, I kind of put it in this Pandora's box and someday that box may open. And I think you see that with a lot of service members nowadays where those boxes get open or they never get shut to a point or they didn't deal with it in the same way. Same thing with cops. You see a lot of first responders. I think some of the really tough ones, like highway patrol and the EMS folks that see car accidents with kids. God. Like, you just. Those are the ones that really kind of take you to a point where you see your own family that way, so to speak. And those are really tough to deal with.
- [17:25]
Dr. Leslie
I mean, that's what you're touching on is so important because that's why I left working for the government. I left because I couldn't keep putting on the armor to show up and work with these people and then taking off the armor to be at home with my kids. I couldn't. I was too exhausted by having to change my clothing. Metaphorically.
- [17:49]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
Yeah.
- [17:49]
Dr. Leslie
And it just like I couldn't compartmentalize it anymore and it became too taxing. So I'm curious, like, you know, what, what's it like for you now? Now you get to be just kind of the same person in all settings now that you've left?
- [18:06]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
I do. It's. It's one of those things. And it's funny when you talk about that, because when you looked at, I mean, the horrors of like World War II and World War I, I think were a bit different. I. I've probably the same, but a bit different. But, you know, when you, when you have 30 days to sail home or, you know, takes time to, to. To get out of that war zone, to, to come back to reality, so to speak. I remember one time we. We were coming out of Iraq and we had to get from our area in the Green Zone over to the airport. We were flying at that, that time. We were flying a CIA, CIA flight out from, from Baghdad to Jordan. And then we' aircraft and going away. And it was a rough day in Iraq. It was. I'm trying to think what year it was. 2004. Five or six. One of the, one of the three. Azerbunch. And I remember as we were going out of the Green Zone, the secure zone, there was a helicopter with a minigun just literally firing on a bunch of terrorists. And the shells were just falling on our vehicle. And we, we drove out into the streets and we got over to the other side and got to the airport and we, we jumped on this airplane. The next thing I knew, I was in the Ritz Carlton in, in Amman, Jordan. And we were at the bar and, you know, I don't know if I was drinking bourbon at time or scotch, you know, but I probably had a McAllen, you know, 25 and two hours before there's literally rounds like, you know, falling on your, you know, your vehicle. And it was one of those things like getting that, that, that quickness of. From this to that was always, it was always kind of odd. And then one time I flew home is. I was in Afghanistan. It was 04. Been gone about four months. And I'm flying the FBI G5 home. We had a FBI senior executive fly over to, to look how things were going. And I managed, it was at the end of my tour to get on this G5. So I jumped at the chance we fly and I think we did a remain overnight in, in Iceland. And then I was flying into. I was living up by Virginia by a Dulles airport about an hour from there. And, you know, I text my wife and I said, hey, I'm probably going to be in at 9am but don't tell the kids just in case something gets delayed. And so I land in Virginia, get my vehicle. And I mean, I had a big moolah beard. It was like down to my, you know, middle chest that probably. And I, I parked on the street. It's Sunday morning, it's like 9am and I park on the street and I run up to the door and I ring the doorbell. And you know, my wife knew it was me. So she tells the kids are all, you know, all four of them. I think the youngest was probably 18 months. Oldest was maybe five. And they're like, she tells him to go down and say, hey, who's at the door? And we had a glass, you know, front door, and the kids come running down and there I am with the beard. And they look at me and they all ran back upstairs screaming, you know, like. And then my youngest and the second youngest, Jude, they were. They didn't talk to me for like two Weeks. And they were the one that was most affectionate towards me at the time. And they didn't talk to me for, like, two weeks until finally. I mean, I'd shaved the beard that day, and. And I don't know if it was because I was gone or if it was that. That thing. But, yeah, those adjustment periods get really tough, and I. I'd done them so many times that I kind of understood them, understood the stress back on my family when I came home, especially my wife, because they were in a routine, and I would break it up. I would come home and, you know, they wanted to see dad, and there was a routine that was going on. It was really tough. And I started giving advice to guys that I deployed with later that was, like, their first or second deployments. I said I would give them advice like, hey, when you get home, your wife's been with the kids all the time. Like, you think you've had it bad, but trust me, you know, three, four kids, you know, and you have no break is a lot worse than a firefight. I always said I always knew where the enemy was in a firefight. Bath time with four kids. You don't know that. And I tell them, like, you know, spend the time with your kids. Let your wife be alone. Let her do things, and. And, you know, get back into it. But those. Those were always rough periods, and. And it took a number of deployments coming back and forth to get used to it. And then I remember another time I was out, A buddy of mine with the Army Special Missions Unit had been in town, and. And Mike was his name, and him and his wife came over, and we had dinner. And then after dinner, we were on the. You know, the deck, and we were talking, and me and Mike were joking about things that we joke about, like having. Once you're over there with someone, you kind of have this, you know, camaraderie, understanding. So we're. We're laughing. And Gina was over there with his wife, talking. And. And I think at one point, they. They left. Gina went up to put the kids down, and I was on the computer, and I'd just gotten back from a deployment, and I had. And I was moving my pictures from the deployment over to my hard drive, and. And Gina came down, and I quickly shut off the computer. And, like, you know, like, she's like, what, are you looking at porn or something? I'm like, no, actually, it's like deployment pictures. And. And she kind of. She saw me talking with Mike, and I think was, you know, like, why don't you ever talk to me about, like, why don't, like, you never, you know, show me the pictures? Never. I said, okay, you want to see them? And I remember going through them and I. I came. This one picture, and it was this green grass, and there was like these four or five chickens on it. And I. And she kind of looking at me, I said, look, that picture is really funny. And she's just like, well, why do. Why do you say that? I said, well, those chickens, I said, they come out of nowhere. And she goes, why is that funny? I said, well, it's like I said, anytime we shot someone in the head and the brains would go out, the chickens came out of nowhere to eat the brains. And we just thought that was really funny. And I said, do you want to see any more pictures? And she said, no. And I think at that point she figured out that there's something that goes on that you're just not going to understand. Like, it's like one of those things that until you're there, because we. We thought that was really funny because you want to see chickens forever. And then you do that and chickens come out of nowhere. And I think at that point, she never asked again to talk about it, to look at it, to. To. To get into that world. Because I think that at that alone just proved like, you're never gonna understand what was going on.
- [25:14]
Dr. Leslie
We're taking a quick break from Rob because I need a drink. See you soon.
- [25:20]
Jalbum Advertiser
Let's talk photos. Not just storing them, showcasing them. You've got images that matter. Whether you're a photographer, a business, updating your followers, or just someone who wants to share life's moments the right way. So why hand them over to big tech's one size fits all cloud? Big tech companies are the fast food of photo sharing. Quick, easy, but not exactly gourmet. And what about your data integrity? Jalbum.net is the photo sharing solution that puts you in control. Want to host images on your own server? You can want a layout that actually reflects your brand or style. Jalbum's customizability is unmatched. And if you're a business sharing regular photo updates with your audience, this tool was built with you in mind. But don't just take our word for it. Over 230 million web pages have been created with J Album, and it's got stellar reviews on Trustpilot to prove it. So head to jalbum.net to download your free software and try it out when you're ready to upgrade Use the code podcast for 20% off your photos, your layout, your rules. Jalbum.net.
- [26:21]
Podcast Host
So what happened to Chappaquiddick? Well, it really depends on who you talk to.
- [26:24]
Ted Kennedy Expert
There are many versions of what happened in 1969 when a young Ted Kennedy drove a car into a pond and.
- [26:31]
Kennedy Family Commentator
Left a woman behind to drown.
- [26:34]
Podcast Host
There's a famous headline, I think, in the New York Daily News. It's teddy escapes, blonde drowns. And in a strange way, right, that sort of tells you the story really became about Ted's political future, Ted's political hopes. Will Ted become president?
- [26:48]
Ted Kennedy Expert
Kappaquiddick is a story of a tragic death and how the Kennedy machine took control.
- [26:53]
Kennedy Family Commentator
And he's not the only Kennedy to survive a scandal.
- [26:56]
Ted Kennedy Expert
The Kennedys have lived through disgrace, affairs, violence, you name it. So is there a curse? Every week we go behind the headlines and beyond the drama of America's royal family.
- [27:06]
Kennedy Family Commentator
Listen to United States of Kennedy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [27:16]
Alan Berg Biographer
From. Iheart Podcasts, before social media, before the Internet, before cable news, there was Alan Berg.
- [27:24]
Alan Berg Commentator
You dig what I do. You have a need. Unfortunately, you have no sense of humor. That's why you can't ever enjoy this show, and that's why you're a loser.
- [27:31]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
He was the first and the original.
- [27:34]
Shock Jock Expert
Shock jock, that scratchy, irreverent kind of way of talking to people.
- [27:38]
Alan Berg Commentator
You're as dumb as the rest.
- [27:39]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
That's.
- [27:40]
Alan Berg Commentator
I can't take anyone. I don't agree with you all the time. I don't want you to. I hope that you pick me apart.
- [27:44]
Alan Berg Biographer
His voice changed media. His death shocked the nation.
- [27:48]
Shock Jock Expert
And it makes me so angry that he got himself killed because he had a big mouth.
- [27:53]
Alan Berg Commentator
KOA morning talk show host Alan Berg reportedly was shot and killed tonight in downtown Denver. He pointed to the Denver phone book and said, well, There are probably 2 million suspects. This guy aggravated everybody.
- [28:05]
Alan Berg Biographer
From iheart podcasts, this is Live Wire, the loud life and shocking murder of Alan Berg. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [28:17]
Stonewall Historian
Maybe you've heard that Stonewall was a riot where queer people fought back against police. Or that it's the reason pride is celebrated this time of year.
- [28:26]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
It was one of the most liberating things that I have ever done.
- [28:30]
Stonewall Historian
But did you know that before it went down in history, the Stonewall was a queer hangout run by the mafia.
- [28:36]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
The voguing at Stonewall was unbelievable.
- [28:40]
Stonewall Historian
In the summer of 1969, it became the site that set off the modern movement for LGBTQ rights, started banging on.
- [28:48]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
The door of the Stonewall like one. Boom, boom, boo.
- [28:52]
Stonewall Historian
Legend says Marsha P. Johnson, a mother in the fight for trans rights, threw the very first brick. She was really, like, scrubbed out of that history. This week on Afterlives, we'll separate the truth from the myth in the life of Marsha P. Johnson. Listen to afterlives on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [29:18]
Dr. Leslie
So would you eat those chickens if they had eaten brains?
- [29:23]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
Never thought of that. Would probably.
- [29:25]
Dr. Leslie
Are those chickens, like, would they be then like, served and cooked up or.
- [29:29]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
No, there were just chickens out in the. In, like, you know, in. In Iraq, people have chickens around that lay. Lay eggs and stuff. Like, it's not like we took the chickens back to the chow hall to cook.
- [29:39]
Dr. Leslie
I'm just wondering what you ingested.
- [29:42]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
Well, I mean, we never know what the chow hall had. I did eat local food, you know, at times, too. I probably wouldn't have thought twice to eat those chickens, though, frankly. I mean, you're the first one that's asked that. So I'm like, if someone had cooked it up, I probably would have ate it.
- [29:58]
Dr. Leslie
I mean, that's the problem with me, though, is somebody asked or somebody told me that somebody had passed away, and my immediate response was, is it going to be an open casket? And that's not a normal response, but again, it's like the shit we've seen and done.
- [30:17]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
Yeah, I mean, it's like one of those things, like. And everyone deals with death differently. It's one of those. Sometimes I feel guilty because I deal with it totally differently than most folks. When I've had so many people that I know and loved and was friends with die in the wars, and all I can think of is, did they die doing what they love? Because I had no problem if I had gotten killed because I thought I was out over there protecting, you know, the. The homeland, United States. That. And I love being with those guys and stuff like that, that if I died that way, like, well, I died doing what I loved. And then it's one of those things. I think only folks over there doing it really kind of understand that, or dying and, you know, trying to save your. Your, you know, the brother next to you or right of you, even if you like them or didn't like them. That had no bearing on it at all. And that's what I think.
- [31:19]
Dr. Leslie
So I have a. That's a really good question is, why did you do this job. Why? Why would you be willing to die for this job when so many people would never enlist? So many people in America want nothing to do with the fucking government. They feel no debt. Why you?
- [31:39]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
I, I don't, like, I don't know where it came from. I, I do remember my mom. I, I trying to think what year it was. She'd found something I wrote in second grade, what do you want to be? And it said U.S. marine and FBI agent. I don't, like, I probably saw a Marine movie. I don't know where FBI came from. And then even an FBI volunteering for SWAT and then volunteering for the hostage rescue team. And then every time I, I feel some guilt because every time an OP came up that I could go overseas and do something, I volunteered for it. And I don't know if I'm sure my wife kind of knew that it wasn't that I volunteered for. I always said, oh, I have to go. Like, you know, it's my turn. But it was me raising my hand, saying, I'll go.
- [32:24]
Dr. Leslie
Why?
- [32:25]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
And I don't know. I, I, what's that?
- [32:28]
Dr. Leslie
Why?
- [32:29]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
I, I don't, I don't know. Like, I just one, I want to be in action. I want to be where it's going on, you know? What is that thing my oldest said? The fumo. FOMO being. Yeah, fomo. Like, you know, I want to be like, right where the, like, and, and you ask any of these guys that are on SWAT teams or HRT or the special ops, like, they all want to be the number one guy in the door. Like, they want to be in the stack. They don't want to be left behind. They want to be where it's going on. So that, that's always where I've been. And, and part of it's selfish because when you look at it and the love of your children that you, you really can't love anything more than your, your child, like, that's one of those things that you just don't get until you have one. But every time I left them to go do this was one of those things. Now, I, I always say I, I justified it, saying I was protecting them by going over and doing this. But I, I think deep down I just love to, to do this. And, and then once you get into that adrenaline, it is like there's no life after.
- [33:48]
Dr. Leslie
Until you do you identify as an adrenaline junkie?
- [33:55]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
No, Like, I, I don't, I, I don't like bungee jumping. Like, I don't go bungee jumping. Because one, I don't trust the dude who, who hooks you up. I don't trust that they inspected the bungee line. Now I, I have skydived a bunch, but I check my gear. I, you know, if I go into.
- [34:16]
Dr. Leslie
A firefight, bungee jump because of trust. But you skydive.
- [34:21]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
Well, because I, I packed the shoot. I, I like, I do all that myself. Like it's one of those things, but also like, like when you go into like a firefight like you, you trust your buddies, that they're going to be there for you and you trust your own ability to, to do things. I don't have a lot of, so I don't have a lot of risk in. The hardest thing for me right now is I end up leaving the job I'd gotten out of the FBI for. It was a horrible, toxic place.
- [34:56]
Dr. Leslie
What's like thinking back over your career, what's one of the sweetest kind of most epic moments that, that you remember that really just hit home for you and felt like this is why I'm here.
- [35:15]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
I mean there's several. And I think part of it is maybe later in my career I was dealing with a lot of overseas kidnappings and, and hostage related things and, and part of it was involved in some of the negotiations for exchanges of them. I remember I had lunch a couple times in Afghan prisons with the Connie warlords. And you know, it's one of those to be able to sit down with, you know, an enemy that literally for, for decades that you've been with that are, you know, pretty, you know, some of them are pretty, pretty badass warlords that have done things and, and you sit down with them and you, and you come to an agreement with them to release some of your folks and, and they release some of yours. And to be able to do that in a, in a, in an environment, a mature environment like where you're not putting personal things in. Some of those things were very rewarding. I think part of it is I met some of them after I got out. I actually ended up meeting Jessica Buchanan was, was kidnapped by pirates and I was involved in finding her. And it was a crazy kind of story type of thing and talking to her about what she went through. And then a couple of the guys that had gotten released out of Afghanistan or helped help get released out of Afghanistan and talking to them and, and hearing them later on about their lives and some things like that, that was really rewarding and involved in certain ops that, you know, you, you catch some, some really Bad people. And those all mean things, you know, to a point. But it's one of those, you know, as. As I get mistaken, some of these podcasts, I get, you know, I get called a bully or arrogant type of thing, and I'm not. I'm confident I'll go after them. But, you know, it's funny, is like, you better be somewhat humble, because the folks that I hung out with, several of them are Medal of Honor winners. The quietest guy in the rooms probably killed the most people. And they're never going to tell you their story. Someone else is going to tell you their story. They're not going to tell you what they did. Someone's going to say, hey, that guy over there, you know what he did, right? And I'm like, yeah, no, what? And they tell me this unbelievable story of what they did. And you're like, wow. And he's just quiet about it. So you. But you have to. You still have to be confident when you deal with those folks, because they're used to a certain level of what you deal with, and they're great people. And, you know, when we get together, it's funny. We talk and we all tell stories, and no one's trying to one up each other. It's one of those where you meet a guy from this. Some of these units, and they've done incredible things, and. And then you tell them the story about when you went undercover against a mob, and they think that's incredible. I'm like, well, what you did was incredible. And it's just a true appreciation of each other in that. And it's like, they're just great people to be around. And they're out there and they're. They're quiet. Like I always say, the guy talking the most is probably not. Is probably the guy who's done the least, so to speak.
- [38:25]
Dr. Leslie
If you could commit a crime and get away with it, what would that be?
- [38:32]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
Oh, like I always say, like, if. If I ever get diagnosed with, like, terminal cancer, there's going to be. There may be a lot of dead people out there.
- [38:43]
Dr. Leslie
Okay, so we have Hit List that's kind of running through here.
- [38:47]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
Yeah. And half of them, though, just me driving to the gym in the morning in. In Miami that I. I always like, I always say if I won the lot. Well, it's funny. Director Comey was a friend of mine, and at one point, I. I mean, I love working for the Bureau, and I told him one time, I said, yeah, I said, if I went. There was like a. You know a 500 million dollar lotto or something. I said, look, if I win that, I'm still going to be an FBI. I'm just going to tell a lot more people to off when I'm in FBI if I got 500 million. But it's like if I won the billion dollar lotto, I'd probably have a truck down here with like, like railroad trusses as bumpers. And the people that tried to just cut me off, I would have cameras on my car so that I could film it and put it to my ignition that I just run these people that's like right off the road type of thing. And I'd, I'd have to be self insured, but I probably would make enough on IG to pay for it.
- [39:47]
Dr. Leslie
Little road rage?
- [39:47]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
Yeah, a bit of road rage, yeah.
- [39:51]
Dr. Leslie
Tell me about, tell me about the UN bombing.
- [39:57]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
That was early on. That was when we first got to Iraq in summer of 03, just after like it was probably June or July. I forget what month it was. And it was just like you're sitting in a building and, and you, you feel an explosion and, and you know that it's significant. Like it, like, and it was I don't know how many miles away and it still like knocks stuff off your shelf. Like you know it's going to be bad and responding there and not even understanding what happened or you know, where to go at that point just to get there and start doing something. And then you start coming across the carnage that is just multiple layers out and trying to figure out well what do I do? Like what. And it was just if you came across someone and they, you know, were alive that you just tried to do some medical intervention to possibly save them or you know, some of them that you knew weren't going to make it and trying to get to like that's, you know, the triage is tough. Being old, like this person's not going to make it. I, I got to get to someone who, who actually has a chance, so to speak. And then trying to, well, what do we do? Like how, how can we even affect anything? How can we contribute to what, what is the success in that? Like you know, to a point, like, so there from the FBI point of view is trying to figure out who did it, trying to save who you can along the way, but trying to gather evidence to be able to put that back on a group so that, you know, something with, you know, American diplomacy or you know, military intervention can, can, you know, take retribution so to speak. But it's overwhelming when you come across something like that.
- [41:52]
Dr. Leslie
Yeah. I'm really curious about the triaging. How do you triage a. Setting a situation like that?
- [42:00]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
Well, you have to actually go back to a civilian incident. So I was coming home from Virginia beach to the house in North Carolina is probably a few days before Christmas. So it was like my final. I was gone, I was coming home. And I come over the intercoastal over this bridge. And as I'm coming down the bridge, I see a van. And I'm looking and it's on its. The van's upside down on its top in the middle of the road. And. And there's only like one other car there. So I'm like, I'm trying to figure out what. What happened. So I put on. I have my FBI, you know, Tahoe. I put on. I have red and blue flashing lights. So I throw them on and I block. I block traffic so that nothing can go into the van. And there's two, two guys in there. It was one of the, you know, a van that FedEx rents during the holidays that carry extra packages. There's two FedEx guys in there, and they're literally strapped in there in their seat belts. And I, I do a quick. I was a. A medic on hrt, so I do a quick assessment that they didn't have any spinal cord injuries and stuff like that. So I basically pull out. I. I always have plenty of my McGaver tools. I pull out my, My knife that cuts seat belts. So I, I cut that and I lower the one down and I, I slide him out and then I do it to the passenger, slide him out and. And the one guy's got some. Some serious medical issues. So I have. We call Sam Splinter. Very flexible, but they, they can, they can stabilize things very quickly. So I put them around their necks just for. For C spine and, and I'm dealing with them and I'm trying to think where. Where's like the, the actual medical attention. And I look down, down the road and about 400 yards down the road I see fire truck, I see ambulances, I see police, you know, flashers and stuff. And I'm like, why isn't anyone coming down this way? So I end up running down and I see a car and it's. It's basically flipped on its side in the trees. And everyone in this group is. Is. Is dealing with this car. And I go over to the car and it's the. It turns out it's a Marine. Marine off duty Marine who Caused this accident. He was drinking. His, his girlfriend was with another guy. He was drinking. He's drunk. He's going to go, you know, and he, and he tried to pass and he hit this van head on and the van flipped there. And then he careened into these, these trees. And, and I, as I finally go over there, all these firemen and EMT folks are sitting there and he has a wound that is like, I'm, I'm seeing his brain. He's not going to live. Like, this is a catastrophic injury and they're all caught up in this. And I'm like, hey guys, like, he is not going to make it. I have two viable patients down the road that need medical intervention. We probably need to get a life flight. Why are you sitting here staring at someone who does not have a chance? And, and I kind of yelled at him, said, hey, get on your game, guys. There's. So I brought them all back down to there, like, hey, look, I get it, try to do something, but you know, you got to take what, what you know is, is a non survivable wound and, and go to the people. Like if no one else is around, fine. But if you got people that can survive something, you need to do that. So it seems harsh at the time, but it's one of those things that you got to just, you know, again, take your. If it's the first time you're seeing something, sometimes you get overwhelmed with it. But after you've seen it a number of times, you're like, all right, look, I, I get it. It's. It's horrible. This, this person probably going to die. But there's other things that we can be doing to save other people that you need to get on.
- [46:04]
Dr. Leslie
I mean, that's why you were the go to FBI guy.
- [46:07]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
Well, like I said, it's just a matter of the first time you see it. It's so different from when you see it 20 times later, what you end up doing just because you, you understand all the things that you, you go through and, and be able to deal with, to put what really is a priority, deal with the priorities and let everything else just happen thereafter.
- [46:30]
Dr. Leslie
But I have to say, you're unique in your ability to do it. Because I've worked with so many people who after 20 years, they crumble and they don't get better at it, they get worse. And I know you're like the most humble person, but you, you also need to recognize that it's a gift that you could do that well.
- [46:49]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
But you say that, but I'm used to, so I'm used to being around people that, that's what they do like. So again, it's, it's where you come from and, and, and when you, you're. There's so many mentors out there that, that you look at like I was the FBI, Eleanor, to, to jsoc, the Joint Special Operations Command. It's, it's where all the, the special, really special units are all embedded in and they do as, as General Thomas used to say, he was a four star. He was, he went from JSOC to, to socom, and he was a Phillies guy, which I was. You know, he liked the Philadelphia Eagles. I'm a New York Giants fan. But he always said, hey look, we get the wicked hard problems because we can solve the wicked hard problems. And, and he was right because like you would take this problem that was, seems unsurmountable and then you break it down with guys that are used to doing this stuff and they, and they put it into, and it, it's, it's funny. The guys that you deal with, they're, they're now three and four stars. And, and you see them going up and, and you, and you remember them when they were younger, but they still had this unbelievable ability to, to do certain things. And they, they, some of them are just amazing people. Like, I remember trying to think if it was Admiral McRaven who again, they all have the same traits. They could, they could get intel briefs for weeks and weeks and they would sit, they would stop in the middle of an intel brief and say, wait a second, didn't that, that guy you just talked about, didn't he call so and so last month to talk about this on this? And you're like, out of all the briefs you get, you literally remember one phone call like, and that was like General McChrystal, Admiral McRaven, General Thomas, General Votel, Chris Donahue, who's a four star now, just amazed. Like they would amaze me on what they could do. And then their interpersonal relationships and the ability to, to, to deal with people and you, and you mentor from them. You look at them and you see how they do things. And then you kind of like, okay, when you think you're, you know, you know, up to your knees and, and stuff, like you kind of like, hey, what did, what did, what do you remember them doing? And they're just, that's where you know, the mentorship comes in.
- [49:12]
Dr. Leslie
This conversation is making me hungry. I'll be right back. I'm going to grab a snack. See you in a minute.
- [49:18]
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- [50:18]
Podcast Host
So what happened at Chappaquiddick? Well, it really depends on who you talk to.
- [50:22]
Ted Kennedy Expert
There are many versions of what happened in 1969 when a young Ted Kennedy drove a car into a pond and.
- [50:28]
Kennedy Family Commentator
Left a woman behind to drown.
- [50:31]
Podcast Host
There's a famous headline, I think in the New York Daily News, it's Teddy Escapes, Blonde Drowns. And in a strange way, right, that sort of tells you the story really became about Ted's political future, Ted's political hopes. Will Ted become President?
- [50:46]
Ted Kennedy Expert
Chappaquiddick is a story of a tragic death and how the Kennedy machine took control.
- [50:50]
Kennedy Family Commentator
And he's not the only Kennedy to survive a scandal.
- [50:53]
Ted Kennedy Expert
The Kennedys have lived through disgrace, affairs, violence, you name it. So is there a curse? Every week we go behind the headlines and beyond the drama of America's royal family.
- [51:04]
Kennedy Family Commentator
Listen to to United States of Kennedy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [51:14]
Alan Berg Biographer
From. Iheart Podcasts. Before social media, before the Internet, before cable news, there was Alan Berg.
- [51:21]
Alan Berg Commentator
You dig what I do? You have a need. Unfortunately, you have no sense of humor. That's why you can't ever enjoy this show. And that's why you're a loser.
- [51:29]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
He was the first and the original.
- [51:31]
Shock Jock Expert
Shock shot, that scratchy, irreverent kind of way of talking to people.
- [51:36]
Alan Berg Commentator
You're as dumb as the rest.
- [51:37]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
That's.
- [51:37]
Alan Berg Commentator
I can't take anyone.
- [51:38]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
I don't agree with you all the time.
- [51:39]
Alan Berg Commentator
I don't want you to. I. I hope that you pick me apart.
- [51:42]
Alan Berg Biographer
His voice changed media his death shocked the nation.
- [51:46]
Shock Jock Expert
And it makes me so angry that he got himself killed because he had a big mouth.
- [51:51]
Alan Berg Commentator
KOA morning talk show host Alan Berg reportedly was shot and killed tonight in downtown Denver. He. He pointed to the Denver phone book and said, well, There are probably 2 million suspects. This guy aggravated everybody.
- [52:03]
Alan Berg Biographer
From iheart podcasts, this is Livewire. The loud life and shocking murder of Alan Berg. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [52:14]
Stonewall Historian
Maybe you've heard that Stonewall was a riot where queer people fought back against police, or that it's the reason pride is celebrated this time of year.
- [52:24]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
It was one of the most liberating things that I have ever done.
- [52:27]
Stonewall Historian
But did you know that before it went down in history, the Stonewall was a queer hangout run by the mafia.
- [52:34]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
The voguing at Stonewall was unbelievable.
- [52:37]
Stonewall Historian
In the summer of 1969, it became the site that set off the modern movement for LGBTQ rights.
- [52:45]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
Started banging on the door of the Stonewall like one. Boom, boom, boo.
- [52:50]
Stonewall Historian
Legend says Marsha P. Johnson, a mother in the fight for trans rights, threw the very first brick. She was really, like, scrubbed out of that history. This week on Afterlives, we'll separate the truth from the myth in the life of Marsha P. Johnson. Listen to afterlives on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [53:13]
Dr. Leslie
If you were gonna die because you had to death penalty, how would you want to go?
- [53:22]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
I'm not sure I can say that, like, on the, you know, okay, if.
- [53:26]
Dr. Leslie
I was going to kill you, how would you want it to happen?
- [53:29]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
I always, like I said, like, I'm like, if I, if I had to go, like, I mean, I think hookers and cocaine may be in there, so to speak, because I've never done that. So I'm like, well, you know, but it's one of those, like, when you say that, like, I. It's funny, I actually, when I was working the FBI's counter drone program, we had to go out to Indiana because they're doing, they. This started federal executions again, and they were worried about protesters flying drones over the. The area that they were going to execute these guys. And I remember sitting there on the road and seeing the guy that was going to go get executed in a Van drive by me at a very slow pace. Like, I mean, I looked at him in the eyes, I'm like, holy. Like, this dude is going knowing to get killed. But I would always say, well, and I tease people, like, I'd have to still be 15 minutes early to my own execution because I can't stand being late to anything. I literally would be like, hey guys, like, we might hit traffic, we need to leave now. Like, so to speak. But it's one of those things. There's a couple times I remember skydiving and I was having issues getting my parachute out. And I always remember sometimes though, like, people that have like 10,000 jumps end up, they get so fixated on the problem that they, they forget some of the things so they think that they can, they can fix what's going on and they, they fall right through their altitudes of when they should just pull their reserves. They get to the point where they're not situationally attuned to where they are. So I remember though, I was having an issue and I, I took my like, left wrist that has out my altimeter on it and I stuck it literally right in my face. So if I go through the 3,000 foot mark, I. I'm going to rip my reserve. So as I'm trying to fix it, I'm looking at my, you know, altimeter. And. And then it's kind of funny, like what goes through your head, like, like if you're not going to make it, so to speak. And you know, I'm like, I don't want to, like, I don't want to be like, oh, he blew it. He should have done this, that, the other thing. And then finally, like, I, you know, I, I got it fixed and you know, my shoot came out and I said, my, my wife always said, like, I had like 10 lives that I've gone through, so to speak. And you know, it. Some of it's lucky. I think some of it should make you luck. I think some of it's, you know, fate. It's a combination, all of them, so to speak. But I've. A couple times I thought, well, this, this isn't going to turn out so well. And I'm like, I'm good with it. I live my life the way I wanted to be sad on some things. But, you know, it's, it's, it's what happens.
- [56:42]
Dr. Leslie
So you're skydiving and you're thinking, I'm not gonna make it. And then you think to yourself, cool.
- [56:50]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
No, no, it was, you know, I had Confidence I was gonna fix it. I, you know, and I like, like I said, I was very situation aware of my altimeter that I was going, like I was not going to go trying to fix it all the way into the ground. But as you're going through it, it's kind of like the, the funny things that go through your mind as you're, you're trying to fix it. Thinking about that same thing. I had a couple things when I was doing some scuba diving and got pinned under a ship at one point. Like so it's one of those, those things that you kind of, when you look at your mortality and, and stuff like that, what kind of goes through your mind is, is actually kind of funny may black humor sense of thing, you know. But you start kind of laughing to yourself about some of the, that you think about when you think you might not make it.
- [57:40]
Dr. Leslie
Were there. So were you scared at times when you almost lost your life and then that fear changed?
- [57:48]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
So I don't think I scared at losing my life. I, I, I, it's not that I haven't been scared. Like there's some things like you're like, like I was, was scared that I didn't have control over it. Like if I'm in a helicopter that goes down, like, you know, I'd rather be the pilot trying to, you know, be able to fix whatever's happening. I just want control over it. So I, you know, I never minded. One time we were walking, we were walking to an objective in Iraq. I was with the seals and the, the lead guy says gives the, not only the halt but the like stop what the you're doing. Like don't make another step. And he figured out we were in a minefield. So at that point like we, we have to kind of back out. And, and I didn't mind that because like, okay, like this is on me. Like I, I can, you know, figure this out. Like I, I didn't want to go and be in a helicopter that just got shot with a missile where you're, you have, you know, because you have no control. Like I liked having control even if it was, you know, something, you know, like walking back out of a minefield as opposed to being a helicopter, get shot down. You have no chance to, you know, engage the enemy or do anything back to him. So that's probably me being a control freak. But it's, it's the funny things that go again that go through your mind when you're doing it.
- [59:16]
Dr. Leslie
You're a very unique person.
- [59:20]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
There's plenty of me out there. There's plenty of guys that, like I said, there's tons of them that I know there's a whole team that was in that minefield with me.
- [59:30]
Dr. Leslie
But you're still in that 1% of the capacity to navigate and think and compartmentalize your emotions.
- [59:39]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
But you know what's funny is when we look at a lot of people.
- [59:43]
Dr. Leslie
Oh my God, you just can't take it. You cannot take a compliment. Where does it go? Is it like, does it land on one of those badges behind you? Because it's not landing on you.
- [59:55]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
I was going to say, though, when we look at like these hostages that are taken and that they, they go through captivity for 2, 3, 4, 5 years in Haqqani jails and other places, we, we train soldiers to go through the same thing and we think that the training's gonna help. And then what we find out is a person that was not trained at all, Their instinct to survive is so great that they do the right things when they need to. So it's one of those things. Like a lot of people haven't done it because they've never been in the situation, but they're very capable of it. They just don't know it. You just don't know. Again, sometimes when we do like hrt, the hostage rescue team and FBI, the selection that we do is two weeks long. And it is really a very mature selections based on delta selection, you get no feedback of how you're doing. Like you go on a five mile run, one, you don't know how long the run's gonna be. You're just told to run. So you run and then you have a current operator running with you and he's not saying anything to you. Like in the Marine Corps, if they never said you were doing good, but you knew if you were screwing up, they yell at you. So you had that feedback. But in HRT selection, you have no feedback. You don't know how. So I remember when I was going through selection, I'm running and there's a guy running next to me that's already on the team and he's just looking at me like, he's, he's literally looking at how much I'm putting out. Like, am I holding back? Am I, am I, am I going 100% so that I like collapse in a mile? Or am I doing 80, 90% or at 50%? He's, he's kind of understanding where, where I'm at and. But you get no input from him. You get no feedback on how you're doing. And we had guys that were unbelievable athletic people that were tremendous athletes and they would fail because in selection, we make them fail. Like, even if we know the whole process. So if we have a guy that runs a five minute mile, you know, for forever, we stack a guy like every mile to run that five minutes, you know, mile with him. But at one point we put him in a situation where he has to fail. Because someone who's never failed in life, when they first fail, some of them just collapse and they're done. We want the guy that fails, that basically fails hard, gets up, brushes himself off and starts going again. Because that's who you want in a situation. So it's one of those things that, that like, we don't want the five minute mile runner that, that's never failed in life. We want someone who runs a, you know, six or seven minute mile that fails, fails again, fails again. And this keeps going because that's, that's the mindset that you want in units like that. Like, you know, okay, I'm one of those things. And you get, guys, what's that?
- [63:08]
Dr. Leslie
I'm gonna tell you something and you can't respond right away. You just have to like, breathe. I think you're incredible.
- [63:19]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
Well, thank you.
- [63:23]
Dr. Leslie
You look so uncomfortable. I really do, though. What is the emotion you experience when I said that?
- [63:32]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
Embarrassment. To, like. Because I know so many people that are out there that, that just are the same or better that you know, there's a ton of people out there that, that, that are like that.
- [63:50]
Dr. Leslie
No, there's not. You have been around them and experienced them. The majority of people are quite ignorant and really, really boring. And that's like, who I spend a lot of my time with.
- [64:02]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
Well, you're a therapist, so like, you know, that is, that is part of your job.
- [64:09]
Dr. Leslie
Okay, I have one final question for you.
- [64:12]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
Okay.
- [64:14]
Dr. Leslie
Tell me a government secret.
- [64:21]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
I can't. If it's still secret. I can't, I can't tell you. Let me tell you something. If someone says, if someone ever comes up to you and says, well, I, I'm secret and I can't tell you what I do, that's the last thing they are. Because the people that really live secret lives, they have an entire cover story to tell you so that they don't stand out. So if anyone says, like, I'd have to kill you or it's too secret, whatever, they're just bullshitting anyone who says that. Like when I, when I lived two years undercover I had an entire cover story that I talked about who I was, what I did, and it never touched on anything, quote, secret. I never got out of my character and told anybody. So all the people that are in covert or, you know, classified things that they can't tell you, there's an entire cover story that they're going to tell you that you're never going to connect to it. So it's the guy, like I said, the quietest guy in the rooms killed the most people. And the guy who's the loudest in the room probably hasn't done anything. And it's the same thing with all that. So if people come up and say, oh, you know, I'm a secret agent, I'm, you know, I'm Agent Orange, you know, from whatever, most likely they are just bullshitting. And there's nothing like when I was, like, most of the time when I was in the FBI, I tell people I was in FBI like, like, you know, unless you're in some type of program that you're, again, you're covert, you're not going to tell people. You can say, I'm in the FBI and you can say a lot of things that you did in FBI and it's not against the law. You're not going to reveal cases, you're not going to reveal, you know, classified things, but you can still say, I'm an FBI and I do this or whatever. So it's the ones that, that make up that whole, you know, secret agent thing. And if you go, what was that? Arnold Schwarzenegger and true lies, when the guys like the car salesman goes out and, you know, bullshits everyone, that's, that's what you're dealing with when you get someone who's like that. So can't tell you any secrets because I'm still, you know, bound to that. But there's many things that you can talk about. Like we talked about the pirate thing and all these other things that we do. None of that stuff is classified. I know where to, to, to the draw the line of what you can say and what you can't say. But you can still tell a story that happened to you without giving away classified information.
- [66:54]
Dr. Leslie
Oh, it's fascinating. It is fascinating. You are amazing. And no, this is not a common conversation.
- [67:05]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
Well, I'm kind of glad because I, I thought, you know, thinking of this, I was thinking like, well, how many? I have tons of gory, like kind of just gory stories, you know, I'm like, how many gory stories am I going to tell in this. What's the name of this? It's intentionally disturbing. Yeah. So I have many disturbing things.
- [67:27]
Dr. Leslie
For me, one of the most disturbing parts of us talking right now is that you don't see how incredible you are and how incredible your mission and your devotion to your career in this country has been. We talked about chickens eating brains and you possibly eating those chickens. But the most disturbing thing to me really is how you, the government does not teach you also how special you are in doing it.
- [67:58]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
I don't even know where to go to.
- [67:59]
Dr. Leslie
I'm sorry, do you have any final thoughts or, like, where can people find you? You're gonna get. You're starting your own podcast, which I think, God, for hours.
- [68:14]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
Still working through that, trying to negotiate that. I'm gonna call it Inside the Line with Rob, Be it with. With that other podcast or I'm gonna. I'm gonna try to do something at one. I think I do a lot of news presentations, a lot of news commentary on all the major networks and stuff. And what I found, though, is like, when I do like a live event like New Orleans or some school shooting, and. And when you're doing the interaction, it's either the. The anchors asking you questions or the. The production crews, you know, giving them the questions to ask. The audience is only getting one perspective of those questions. And when. When I did like Surviving the Survivor, we did a couple, like, live events, like the CEO shooting and stuff, and what I found is that we're eyes on like three or four people on there. And when I wasn't speaking, I would look at the comments and I'd see questions people are asking and then I would answer them. And I think that's where news is going because right now, media is dictating what you hear and how you hear it from the experts. And I think people want to ask their own questions, and I think that's where it's going. So I'm working with some folks there. I'm working on writing, helping write a TV series. We'll see if that sells. There's a potential movie on the pirate thing. If you haven't seen the pirate thing. Surviving the Survivor. I did a one hour podcast on chasing these pirates down. Even one hour wasn't enough in itself, but it's a crazy story about a whole bunch of, like a team of people that really did unbelievable things to do that. It definitely wasn't just about me. It was a team of folks that did it just through my eyes. You can listen that on Surviving the Survivor and then Sierra One Consulting's one of my companies that do security consulting and do, you know, technical advising type of thing, so to speak.
- [70:18]
Dr. Leslie
Awesome. And we'll link everything to this. So thank you so much for doing this, for taking the time to talk to me.
- [70:25]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
Yeah.
- [70:26]
Dr. Leslie
And we will eventually meet in person and drink bourbon.
- [70:30]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
Bourbon. Yes.
- [70:35]
Dr. Leslie
Thanks for watching this episode. I hope you enjoyed it and I hope you gained some insight into what fucking d' Amico does, what he did, and what guys like him do. And women and the incredible people that are inside of our government and our military. And also learn to take a compliment. If someone's offering it to you, you really should let it hit home. See you next time on another episode of Intentionally Disturbing.
- [71:12]
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- [72:13]
Podcast Host
So what happened to Chappaquiddick? Well, it really depends on who you talk to.
- [72:17]
Ted Kennedy Expert
There are many versions of what happened in 1969 when a young Ted Kennedy drove a car into a pond and.
- [72:23]
Kennedy Family Commentator
Left a woman behind to drown.
- [72:26]
Ted Kennedy Expert
Chappaquiddick is a story of a tragic death and how the Kennedy machine took control. Every week we go behind the headlines and beyond the drama of America's royal family.
- [72:36]
Kennedy Family Commentator
Listen to United States of Kennedy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [72:45]
Stonewall Historian
Maybe you've heard that Stonewall was a riot, where queer people fought back against police, or that it's the reason Pride is celebrated this time of year.
- [72:54]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
It was one of the most liberating things that I have ever done.
- [72:57]
Stonewall Historian
Legend says Marsha P. Johnson threw the very first brick, started banging on the.
- [73:02]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
Door of the Stonewall like one. Boom.
- [73:05]
Stonewall Historian
This week on Afterlives, we'll separate the truth from the myth in the life of Marsha P. Johnson. Listen to afterlives on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast from.
- [73:18]
Alan Berg Biographer
Iheart Podcast. Before social media, before cable news, there was Alan Berg.
- [73:24]
Marsha P. Johnson Advocate
He was the first and the original.
- [73:26]
Shock Jock Expert
Shock Chuck, that scratchy, irreverent kind of way of talking to people and telling them that you're an idiot and I'm gonna hang up on you.
- [73:33]
Alan Berg Biographer
This is Live Wire, the loud life and shocking murder of Alan Berg.
- [73:38]
Alan Berg Commentator
And he pointed to the Denver phone book and said, well, there are probably 2 million suspects.
- [73:43]
Alan Berg Biographer
Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [73:48]
Dr. Leslie
This is an iHeart podcast.