Sherri Papini, Clayton Echard Pregnancy Scandal, Deceptive Mental Health TikToks, and More w/ Forensic Psychologist, Dr. Leslie Dobson!

Summary

Summary of "Sherri Papini, Clayton Echard Pregnancy Scandal, Deceptive Mental Health TikToks, and More w/ Forensic Psychologist, Dr. Leslie Dobson!"

Intentionally Disturbing
Host/Author: iHeartPodcasts
Release Date: July 1, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of Intentionally Disturbing, hosts delve deep into the murky waters of human behavior, current events, and personal anecdotes with the expertise of forensic psychologist Dr. Leslie Dobson. The conversation is marked by sharp satire, sarcasm, and an unyielding pursuit of truth, as Dr. Dobson dissects high-profile cases and broader societal issues.

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Sherri Papini Kidnapping Case

[04:06] Host 1:
The episode opens with a detailed examination of the Sherri Papini case, where Papini allegedly faked her own kidnapping in 2016. Dr. Dobson provides a psychological analysis, stating, "She comes off to me like she has some personality disorders" ([05:35]).

Key Points:

• Inconsistencies in Papini's Story: Dr. Dobson highlights the irregularities in Papini's accounts, noting, "She's consistently inconsistent and so you look for that in psychology. If it smells fishy, it's a fish" ([07:13]).
• Influence of Media and Fiction: The hosts draw parallels between Papini's actions and the plot of the novel Gone Girl, suggesting that Papini may have emulated fictional narratives ([06:30], [07:40]).
• Ethical Concerns with Media Support: Dr. Dobson criticizes the documentary's portrayal of Papini, asserting that support from paid sources like her therapist and lawyers undermines her credibility ([05:29], [07:38]).

Notable Quote:

"Her story is too unbelievable to be believable. It seems a little more volitional, like she's enjoying the clout from it." — Dr. Leslie Dobson ([08:46])

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Comparative Analysis of Similar Cases

[15:26] Host 3:
The discussion transitions to other cases of fabricated kidnappings, such as Carly Russell and Hannah Kobayashi, emphasizing the emotional toll on families and questioning the motives behind such deceptions.

Key Points:

• Emotional Impact on Families: The hosts explore the devastating effects on families, highlighting Hannah Kobayashi's case where the father's suicide followed her disappearance ([23:27]).
• Psychological Motivation: Dr. Dobson suggests that these actions stem from a desire for attention, notoriety, or financial gain, often without a coherent plan ([16:21], [22:26]).

Notable Quote:

"People are looking for simple ways to get attention, notoriety, and to get money. But again, they're not thinking it through." — Dr. Leslie Dobson ([21:31])

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Clayton Echard Pregnancy Scandal

[25:29] Host 3:
The episode shifts focus to a scandal involving Clayton Echard, a reality TV star from The Bachelor, and his partner Lara Michelle Owens, who was federally indicted for faking pregnancies.

Key Points:

• Manipulative Behaviors: Owens fabricated pregnancies, sent fake ultrasounds, and engaged in stalking behaviors, leading to Echard blocking her after receiving over 500 messages ([26:46], [27:48]).
• Psychological Profiling: Dr. Dobson discusses Owens' potential erotomanic delusional disorder, characterized by obsessive love and manipulation ([28:21], [29:43]).

Notable Quote:

"If she can move on, he would probably feel a lot better." — Dr. Leslie Dobson ([30:37])

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Deceptive Mental Health Advice on TikTok

[42:44] Host 3:
A critical segment addresses the proliferation of misleading mental health advice on TikTok, where 52 out of the top 100 videos were found to offer detrimental guidance.

Key Points:

• Misinformation Risks: Dr. Dobson warns about the dangers of non-expert individuals dispensing mental health advice, leading to misdiagnosis and self-medication ([44:29], [44:58]).
• Algorithmic Impact: The platform's algorithms exacerbate mental health issues by continuously exposing vulnerable users to negative content, deepening their struggles ([46:07], [47:17]).

Notable Quote:

"If you are going to get medical advice from social media, get it from somebody who's credible, has degrees and a license, and is referencing their scientific-based articles." — Dr. Leslie Dobson ([48:05])

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Pedophilia and Social Media's Influence

[55:28] Dr. Leslie Dobson:
The conversation delves into the dark realm of pedophilia, examining how social media platforms inadvertently facilitate the grooming and normalization of predatory behaviors.

Key Points:

• Terminology and Stigmatization: Dr. Dobson emphasizes the importance of proper terminology, advocating for "paraphilic disorder" to accurately describe predatory actions without softening their severity ([62:46]).
• Behavioral Patterns: The hosts discuss the psychological profiles of pedophiles, including their manipulation tactics and the escalation of their desires ([64:03], [66:45]).
• Preventative Measures: Dr. Dobson highlights California’s approach of civilly committing sexually violent predators, ensuring they receive treatment and are contained to prevent further offenses ([67:04], [68:14]).

Notable Quotes:

"These are sadistic fucking crimes. They are horrifying and they are brutalizing children." — Dr. Leslie Dobson ([64:56])

"They misconstrue signs or they're hallucinating." — Dr. Leslie Dobson ([31:07])

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Dr. Leslie Dobson’s Viral Safety Campaigns

[51:08] Host 3:
Dr. Dobson discusses her own viral videos aimed at raising awareness about personal safety and the predatory behaviors of individuals online.

Key Points:

• Shopping Cart Video: A 17-second video where Dr. Dobson refuses to return her shopping cart if she perceives a threat, emphasizing personal safety over societal judgment ([51:29], [52:52]).
• Child Safety on Social Media: Highlighting the dangers of posting children's images online, Dr. Dobson illustrates how predators exploit such content for malicious purposes, including creating deepfakes ([55:28], [60:05]).
• Public Reception and Backlash: While her videos have garnered millions of views, they have also attracted significant negative attention, including death threats and legal harassment from detractors ([54:59]).

Notable Quote:

"I just don't want to risk that safety. It's fucking fine." — Dr. Leslie Dobson on not returning shopping carts ([52:52])

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts

The episode concludes with reflections on the intersection of mental health, social media, and societal safety. Dr. Dobson emphasizes the critical need for credible mental health resources and the dangers posed by misinformation. She also reiterates the importance of protecting vulnerable populations, especially children, from predatory behaviors facilitated by online platforms.

Notable Final Quote:

"We need to say a paraphilic disorder, we need to say that somebody is a predator towards the youth. We can't make it sound nicer." — Dr. Leslie Dobson ([62:46])

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About Dr. Leslie Dobson

Dr. Leslie Dobson is a seasoned clinical and forensic psychologist with over 20 years of experience in severe mental illness, violence, and sexual offenses. Known for her viral social media videos and her podcast Intentionally Disturbing, Dr. Dobson leverages her expertise to educate the public on complex psychological issues with a blend of dark humor and incisive analysis.

For more information, visit her website at drlesliedobson.com or follow her on Instagram and TikTok.

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This episode of Intentionally Disturbing offers an unflinching exploration of some of the most perplexing and disturbing aspects of human behavior, guided by Dr. Dobson’s expert insights. It serves as both a cautionary tale and a call to action for greater awareness and proactive measures in safeguarding mental health and societal well-being.

Transcript

[Host 1]

This is an I Heart podcast.

[Host 2]

Maybe you've heard that Stonewall was a riot where queer people fought back against police, or that it's the reason pride is celebrated this time of year.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

It was one of the most liberating things that I have ever done.

[Host 2]

Legend says Marsha P. Johnson threw the very first brick, started banging on the.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Door of the Stonewall like one. Boom.

[Host 2]

This week on Afterlives, we'll separate the truth from the myth in the life of Marsha P. Johnson. Listen to afterlives on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts from.

[Narrator 1]

Iheart Podcast. Before social media, before cable news, there was Alan Berg.

[Narrator 2]

He was the first and the original Shock Chuck.

[Host 1]

That scratchy, irreverent kind of way of talking to people and telling them that you're an idiot and I'm gonna hang up on you.

[Narrator 1]

This is Live Wire. The loud life and shocking murder of Alan Berg.

[Narrator 2]

And he pointed to the Denver phone.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Book, said, well, there are probably 2 million suspects.

[Narrator 1]

Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Narrator 3]

How could a beautiful young first grade teacher be stabbed 20 times, including in the back, allegedly die of suicide? Yes, that was the medical examiner's official ruling. After a closed door meeting, he first named it a homicide.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Why?

[Narrator 3]

What happened to Ellen Greenberg? A huge American miscarriage of justice. For an in depth look at the facts, see what happened to Ellen on Amazon. All proceeds to the national center for Missing and Exploited Children.

[Narrator 4]

Did it occur to you that he charmed you in any way?

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Yes, it did.

[Host 3]

But he was a charming man.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

It looks like the ingredients of a.

[Narrator 1]

Really grand spy story because this ties together the Cold War with the new one.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

I often ask myself now, did I know the true Jan at all?

[Narrator 4]

Listen to Hot agent of chaos on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Host 4]

Explore the winding halls of historical true crime with Holly Fry and Maria Tremarki, hosts of Criminalia, as they uncover curious cases from the past. The legend of the Highwayman suggests men dominated the field, but tell that to Lady Catherine Ferrers, Known as the wicked lady who terrorized England in the mid-1600s, her legend persists nearly 400 years after her death. Highwaymen are in the hot seat this season. Find more crime and cocktails on Criminalia. Listen to criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Mother Knows Death, starring Nicole N. Jemi and Maria Q. Kane.

[Host 3]

Hi, everyone. Welcome to Mother Knows Death. Today we have some great stories we will be discussing with a special special guest. You may have heard of Dr. Leslie Dobson, who is a clinical and forensic psychologist with over 20 years of experience in severe mental illness, violence and sexual offenses. She's been a guest on Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, one of our faves. She's also author of the book the Friend Cleanse and she hosts the intentionally Disturbing podcast. But she's probably best known for her viral social media videos. Hi, Dr. Leslie. Welcome to Mother Knows Death.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Hi. Thanks for having me.

[Host 3]

We're so excited to do this episode with you. We had a couple stories in the news recently about people who just faked their kidnapping and things like that, and we've been saving it aside for you. So, Rachi, you want to get into the first story?

[Host 1]

Yeah. I've been dying to talk about this Sherry Papini docu series that came out a couple weeks ago because we've covered the case a lot and you were coming on. I was like, we have to have to have to talk to Dr. Leslie about this. So for our listeners that aren't familiar with this story, this happened back in 2016 where this wife and mother mysteriously vanished. One morning her husband got a call from the daycare that the kids never got picked up. When he got home, she wasn't there. She was missing for all this time. Her family was pleading on the news for her to come back or where was she? Nobody knew what happened. They thought she was abducted. So all of a sudden on Thanksgiving, she returns home. Her hair has been chopped, she has this brand on her back. She claimed that two Hispanic women had kidnapped her. It ended up turning out that she was staying with an ex boyfriend at this time and she got arrested for faking her own kidnapping. So now this docu series has come out where she is a new side of the story, which I'm going to argue is even worse than the original story. I don't know. What do you guys think about this? Like in the docu series, she was giving the producers a new story. And by the end of the four episodes, I feel like they were calling her out on having even more inconsistencies. And I realized by the end of it that the only people that claimed she was telling the truth were people she was paying, meaning her therapist and her lawyers.

[Host 3]

Can therapists be paid off like that? I don't. That's kind of sounds really unethical.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

There are a lot of stupid therapists I don't like. You know, they can be manipulated she. She comes off to me like she has some personality disorders. And so I would imagine, you know, she takes pride in being referred to as a master manipulator, but yet she has this meekness to her and this, like, this youthfulness. And it reminds me of so many notorious women who were capable of doing horrible things, but they would kind of draw you in with this almost like this delicateness.

[Host 1]

Yes.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

And it was like a mask for the maliciousness that they were capable of. No, I don't know what she was doing for 22 days, but I believe her boyfriend.

[Host 1]

Yeah. It's kind of crazy because our listeners are not going to believe this, but I've never seen the movie Gone Girl. I just read the book last week, and I was, like, laughing to myself at how she seriously, three years after this book and movie came out, took every detail from this novel and implemented it in real life. I mean, she just lost her job, just like the main character in Gone Girl lost her job. She's sitting around the house with a rocky marriage. She's having this affair. She meets up with this ex boy boyfriend who she basically, in my opinion, sets up to has committed this crime because she wanted to run away. And then in the middle of it, decided she made a huge mistake and returned. It's exactly the plot of the book.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

It's interesting to me because it's hard to differentiate delusion from, you know, a purposeful lie. And that's where I would do so many psychological assessments on her and, oh, I would just have a field day with her. But, you know, there was a movie that came out with, I think it was Channing Tatum and he was drugging people, and they were. It Blink, Blink Twice.

[Host 3]

Is that the movie?

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Okay. So so many people have referenced Blink Twice as they. As what they experienced from Sean Combs, and they are referencing it to the T. And so there are three people I can think of that have quite a big following now and have reached out to me and I've spoken to. They are straight up delusional or they are lying. And it is because of the similarities and the references to the movie and the linear fashion of how the movie played out. And that is how they are saying their experience was. They weren't trafficked. They never met the guy. These stories aren't true. And so when it comes to Papini. Is it Papini? Yes, Papini. It's just. It's. It's. It's too unbelievable to be believable. She's consistently inconsistent and so you look for that in psychology. You look for like the linearity of the story over time and the elements and the components. If it smells fishy, it's a fish.

[Host 3]

So wait, so this is for the. Let's go back. Cause I'm not sure I understood what you said about the, the P. Diddy situation because I haven't heard this yet. So you're saying that the witnesses that are describing their stories are describing stories that are similar to a movie and may not be what they actually experienced.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Not the witnesses in trial.

[Host 3]

Okay, so other, Other people though.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Yes, other people who have substantial followings and have reached out to me because they want to be on my podcast or, you know, they want me to advocate for them. And you know, once I like, I'm never going to have a mentally ill, severely mentally ill person on my podcast. I'm not going to take advantage of that state of mind. Um, I don't agree with all of the interviews soft White underbelly does because he will go out at 3am to Compton, offer someone 50 bucks they're on crack, and he'll interview him. And I think that that's a really poor use of our platforms. And so people reach out and I could easily interview someone who says they were trafficked by Diddy and fully be aware that they're delusional because they are literally stating scene by scene, the movie blink twice. But I just, I don't. Ethically, it's just so wrong to me. So, no, the people on the stand testifying, I truly believe them. And I think that when, when the defense is going at their credibility, I think that's the only way they can, they can really fight back in this case. But you can't really go against someone's credibility when they're high as a fucking kite all day and all night on a million substances as well. So their lack of consistent memory on the stand in trial right now, I do not think is a lack of credibility or truth. I think it's like a substance induced crazy nightmare they lived.

[Host 3]

It's interesting that you're saying that because I was thinking like this Sherry Papini person has done interviews and it's like these people, is it that they're lying and they're just good at lying, or do they really believe their stories? That that's like. I guess that's something that you would do is figure that out.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Yeah, we have a lot of psychological assessments that can figure that out that look for delusional disorder, paranoia, a desire to fake good. You want to look more sick than you are. You know, we can look at all of that. We look at that through a variety of tests that are very different and they're normed on samples of people just like you and me. So you look for similar people, same ethnicity, same age, same gender, and you compare answers and the tests will be like, whoa, this is like super extreme for somebody like this. This doesn't make sense. And it lines up everything. And then we have tons of different tests. And then I look at each test and I compare all the results. It's really, really fucking tedious. Sherry is too inconsistent. These stories are too bizarre and ever changing for me to think that it would be delusional. It seems a little more volitional, like she's enjoying the same and the clout from it.

[Host 1]

Yeah, I would agree. Because, you know, obviously everybody has a right to tell their side of the story, but they're sitting there criticizing her ex husband for doing the Hulu documentary about her when she's doing this other documentary, making accusations about him stealing her children away when I don't really think it's that far fetched that, you know, might not have custody after going to prison. So I think it's. I think it's kind of outrageous to sit there and say that he stole her kids away. And I mean, I'm not saying he's a perfect guy either. Clearly their marriage wasn't great. His sister was even in the docu series, you know, on Cherry side for most of it, which I thought was strange. But, you know, you did go to prison and you did admit that you lied and your story continues to be inconsistent. So what I thought was most pivotal part of the documentary, not pivotal, but a great part of the documentary, was it ended with her asking the production team, do you think this is going to be better or worse for me? And I would say as somebody that's followed this case for almost 10 years, I think it's way worse for her. She seems even more guilty, in my opinion.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

I can totally see her branding herself. Like, it's just I can see her coming up with what she thought was like this epic story and plan didn't work out. Okay, go to prison. Oh, I've got another one for you. Here's my new story and plan. Oh, we've got thirsty producers who need airtime. Okay. They're willing to give me, what, 1500 bucks to do things.

[Host 3]

Okay.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Because how is she making money now out of prison and exactly like I think she thought she was going to be this next gone girl. But the difference between her and the main character in that book is she does not have the same intelligence level. And we have to remember that's a fictionalized book. So she clearly didn't line everything up as perfectly as she thought she was going to.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

And intelligence is so interesting. Right, because it's based on so many different facets of the mind. So she could be very, very emotionally manipulative and intelligent in that way, but lack intelligence with like forethought and future oriented thinking.

[Host 3]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. Like I'm just like, okay, I get your plan, but like what did you think was going to happen next? There's not like any plan after week one or something of like, how are people going to look at this and take this and like what's going to happen next of it? It's really like, it's kind of weird, honestly. Remember there was a girl, maybe it was like a year or two ago, a young woman named Carly Russell who did the same thing. She, she said that she got, she pulled over to the side of the road because she saw this toddler walking on the side of the road in a diaper. And then she, she claimed she was kidnapped and then she ended up at her parents house like two days later. And it obviously the whole story didn't check out. You don't think from a cop's perspective that they're going to look into this a little bit and then like, what was the point of that? Like what is going through these people's minds? It's so weird.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

I mean, I don't know if like they couldn't get a job at Starbucks. I. People are weird. As a therapist that I like, I'm always just coming to the conclusion that people are really weird. If you find good people and you have a circle of like three friends, that's super amazing. Yeah, because people have darkness inside them. People have secrets and even your closest friend, you don't know her dirt. And being a therapist, I get to find out. But also being a forensic psychologist, I get to do these psychological assessments and I get to manipulate these psychopathic people in order for them to show me higher levels of their psychopathy. So there's this manipulation present where I get like some good tea that other people don't get.

[Host 3]

I know, it's so juicy. Like I want to hear. I know you can't talk about patients, but are you allowed to like tell general stories? As long as you don't give away who it is. Right. Like why? Why not?

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

And a lot of court cases are. Are public. So we all. You see my name listed as the expert or I'm. My testimonies out there. But I've worked with, you know, thousands of the most mentally ill, severely violent, mostly men. I have to say, I don't have like a huge. I don't have a lot of experience with women because the facilities were largely men. And I think women are just a little better at getting away with their crimes.

[Host 3]

So.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

But yeah, I know where a lot of bodies are buried. You know, these men would tell me much more than they were in for. And depending on my role, I could either report it or I could not. So as a therapist, you know, unless you're going to kill someone, I can't tell people that you've killed someone. So there's that protection. But in forensic psychology, if I'm an expert, then I would add that to the report. Lawyers would just read it and be like, oh, wait, you said there's 13 people under this bridge.

[Host 1]

Oh, my God, that's so interesting.

[Host 3]

You know what another question that I had is like, we're talking about this woman's husband. And there's always. Obviously people have husbands, family. Like, is there a certain type of person that's attracted to a person like this? Because maybe the person that does these types of things knows that they're manipulative and they look for a weaker link almost, because sometimes it seems like the family or the husband. It happened with the. What was that woman's name? Susan? With the car, with the kids back in the day. Why can't I think of what her name is right now? You know, the one that faked that she got carjacked and the. The car went into the water with the kids still in the car. And she said that she was kidnapped.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

I vaguely remember it. Yeah.

[Host 3]

Well, her husband believed her at first. What is it about these family members that are completely. Just have no idea that their loved one is capable of coming up with a lie like this? They believe what they're doing.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

People are ignorant and simple. And, you know, I think the. The real truth is that we can barely manage our own lives. And to be able to shift our paradigm and change our perspective of a human being so close to us, it's cognitively difficult. It takes energy, it takes time, it takes commitment to. To shift that mindset. And, you know, who knows if that's happening in the Sean Combs trial with his kids sitting there watching, talking about dad ejaculate or. No, he wasn't ejaculating, playing with Jack.

[Host 3]

That's weird that, that the children are there and I don't care what age they are. It's fricking weird.

[Host 1]

Yeah, I think they are like, Are.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

They like, oh, we knew about this. Are they going to shift their paradigm? Do they love dad less? Because they should. But it's. It takes a while for people to not be bamboozled, I guess. And it happens in good ways and bad ways. But I also think that, you know, narcissistic men. So people with narcissistic personality disorder often find relationships with women who have borderline personality disorder. And these women who are faking cases all have this flair for borderline Personality Disorder. Now, the narcissist sees it as someone they can easily control. Right. And the borderline is. The relationship begins with the borderline being very flattering. Right. They're all in. They're very devoted because a borderline doesn't have an identity. So they're going to be whatever the narcissist wants until they're not. Until they start to fall apart and become fragmented again, which is their natural state. Then the narcissist can't handle that person. The borderline starts to freak out, and then again, you know, disappears for 22 days and stamps her back with something. Is this not diagnosing, just assuming?

[Host 3]

No, I. I understand that. I. I was curious if this is a similar personality to people who. Like the Munchausens by proxy or just Munchausen's in general. We had a story of a woman last week who faked having sickle cell anemia. And I know a lot of people do these things because they think they could get money from it. And I'm not sure if it's an attention thing all the time, but also you have stories of people doing this on their kids. And then we had another story this week about a woman who faked a pregnancy. It's just very like. It seems like it's all along the same lines of just very weird things for people to make up because they could easily be proven wrong.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Yeah, I think, well, there's a cash grab, right? I think especially during this. Well, with this economy, people are terrified and they're. People are getting more mentally ill because they're freaking the fuck out, which is understandable. And they're looking for simple ways to get attention, notoriety, and to get money. But again, they're not. They're not thinking it through. Munchausen's. Munchausen's is a very severe disorder and it shows itself over many, many, many years. So if there isn't a history of it, I would assume the person is more borderline or there's a different diagnosis. But with Munchausen's you're gonna see illnesses for a long, long time. And of course we have the most severe case that I think we've really had televised was oh, Gypsy Rose.

[Host 1]

Yeah, right.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

And how many years did that go on? That was her entire life that her mother had Munchausen's by proxy.

[Host 1]

Oh yeah.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

So if it's just one of these one off instances, then I definitely look towards more of a borderline, psychopathic, manipulative, just spontaneous attempt at a money grab.

[Host 1]

Well, I'm curious your thoughts on this other case we have about Hannah Kobayashi. So we had talked about her last year she had flown from Hawaii to lax. She was supposed to take a connecting flight to New York. She never got on that flight. Her family ended up declaring her missing and then her father went to LA to look for her, ended up dying by suicide, only for her to turn up in Mexico a couple weeks later. So I think this case is really interesting because she's not this article saying she's speaking out for the first time and she's not really saying much, but. But it seems like she just wanted to kind of disappear for a little bit and didn't realize how damaging it was going to be to her entire family.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Right. That her dad was going to off himself.

[Host 3]

Yeah, like that's nuts. Right. But I understand that as a parent, like if my kid was missing, like I can't even fathom what that would feel like. Even if it was you, Maria, an older kid, like, would be like the grossest feeling ever. I can't imagine.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Yeah, but I, it's all bizarre to me because I would still, I would look, I would keep looking. Right. There was no, there were no remains found. There was no proof of death or anything. So it makes me think, you know, why. Why did he kill himself so quickly? Is there something he didn't want seen? Was he feeling guilty? Did he think that he had led to her running away? Why did she. There's so many questions about why this was so severe in so many ways and drastic.

[Host 1]

Yeah, because her family seeming to say that she was in some sort of danger. And it's come out that her and her father had an estranged relationship. So if they were truly estranged, it is bizarre he would take such a dramatic step. And was he involved in that danger? Why are they not rushing to clear it up? I Mean, I guess it's kind of none of our business, but when it reaches the public and people are searching for her, then it is kind of their responsibility to let us know.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Yeah. I don't. With her case, I don't immediately place blame on her. I lead with curiosity because of how quickly her father did that.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

So I think we're missing a lot. And I would imagine. I would imagine we may never know because it's her story to tell, you know?

[Host 1]

Yeah. And I want to circle back to another story we have about this fake pregnancy scandal with this bachelor star. So I don't know how familiar you are with this case. I've been following it for over a year, but it's just been escalating like crazy. So I know, mom, you're, like, not super familiar with it because you're not the biggest bachelor.

[Host 3]

I just don't. I don't know. Like, she told me about. Oh, there's this thing that. And I was like, yeah, people have been faking pregnancy since the beginning of time. Like, whatever. Like, I don't. I. I think it.

[Host 1]

It's.

[Host 3]

It's a little weird. It's weird, for sure. But, like, I'm just kind of like. And to me, I look at it like, okay, he's. He has money, and he's somebody, and she was trying to get money off of him. Like, that's how I look at it.

[Host 1]

So to give the listener some background, this guy, Clayton Eckerd, that was on the Bachelor, he, after he was on the Bachelor, started working in real estate. This woman, Lara Michelle Owens, reached out to him to help with some real estate. He fully admits that the day they met up, that they hooked up and only had oral sex. So he was really surprised when 11 days later, she said she was pregnant. So first it started with that because, you know, of course, they're the only two people in the room. He said. She said, we don't really know what went on. But he is, this entire time, maintained they never had vaginal sex at all. So, of course, this starts spiraling, and then it starts coming out that, you know, she was trying to pursue a relationship he didn't really want anything to do with that. The story starts escalating. She says she's pregnant with twins. She's sending him ultrasounds. She's sending him medical records. She's taking him to court over custody. Wearing a fake pregnant belly in the court meetings.

[Host 3]

Yeah, that's weird.

[Host 1]

That's what I'm talking about. Like, she's taking it to the extreme. And then he ends up finding out she's done it to a couple other guys and now she's been federally indicted for it. It's just nuts.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

And she has like a million phone numbers. He's had to block her. She's full on stalking him.

[Host 1]

Yeah. Over 500 texts and emails from various different accounts. I mean, we talk about cases where, you know, people have sex and men refuse to admit that the result of sex could be pregnancy, but if they really didn't have sex. If they really didn't have sex. And you know, he's surprised by this in general. And she has a history of it. I just think it's really bizarre to take the extra steps. First you're lying, which is just really weird, and then you're taking the steps to Photoshop fake documents. You're buying a fake belly on Amazon and wearing it in court meetings. I mean, how do you think you're getting away with this? She just said, oh, I had a miscarriage. No big deal. It's not how that works. People have to look into everything.

[Host 3]

Well, what would really be the point of there being a fake pregnant belly for sale anyway? Like, why would.

[Host 1]

For movies and stuff.

[Host 3]

Okay, well that should be like a movie prop website. Why can you just buy that on Amazon? That's seriously, like, that's no good's going to come of that.

[Host 1]

Well, when I worked on the movie, we had ordered various pregnant bellies and different skin tones and textures to see which one was the most realistic. So I imagine this woman doing them too for her own personal. I assuming she was doing it for financial gain or. I don't know, it just, it's such.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

A. I mean, she, she seems ill though. I mean, like, how rich is this guy? What do you get, like 30 grand?

[Host 3]

That's what I'm saying.

[Host 1]

Like. Well, I don't think he's that rich if he had to go into real estate after being on reality television and she's the daughter of a famous radio host.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

So you want to assume she comes from some wealthy situation. I don't know if this is just some sick mind games she likes playing on guys that reject her or.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Well, you know, it's, I would say like erotomanic delusional disorder, which is stalking. Right. She's. It's, it's a love based, sex based infatuation based obsession with somebody. And you can't. They don't know that it's not reality. And there does come a point where it switches to other people and other Objects, and then oftentimes it switches back, which is scary. But if they're not stalking you, they're stalking someone else. So at least you can be relieved that they're stalking someone else. So if she can move on, he would probably feel a lot better.

[Host 1]

Oh, yeah. I mean, there's an entire website devoted to victims of her. There's multiple guys on there with their whole stories of what she put them through. And he was very gleeful when the indictment came through because he had been living in this absolute hell for, I guess, two years now. This has been going on.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

It's kind of like baby reindeer. Ish. Like, it does. It gives that vibe of, you know, he gave just enough. He did engage with her, and then that when somebody is mentally compromised, it doesn't take much for them to misread signals and cues. And I would imagine he replied to her at the beginning. You know, he kind of, like. He didn't probably set a really firm boundary. He was probably trying to be kind. It continued, and then he was like, whoa, my God, this is getting fucking insane. Just kind of like how baby reindeer played out. And that's how a lot of delusions and stalking scenarios play out.

[Host 1]

It is so scary to think you're just having a casual hookup with somebody one time, and then it just ends up following you for the next couple years of your life and maybe forever.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Right. I mean, she could just continue to try and find ways unless she's imprisoned.

[Host 1]

And that is so scary. Oh, my God. Yeah.

[Host 3]

Like, when you hear some of the stories about it, it's just like, there. There was this. I think it was on. Nancy Grace was talking about it, actually, like an actress that was having a stalker and stuff, and. And like, having your children involved and just being scared. And I can't even imagine that it's what. Like, what causes. Is it the same thing you were just talking about? That's what causes people to. To do that?

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Yeah, I think they. You know, they're not in the right mindset. They. The delusions are false beliefs, but these people really believe them. We see them as false. These people believe them to be true. They. They misconstrue signs or they're hallucinating. So we would look towards something like schizophrenia, where you're having hallucinations. Visual, you know, you think he's coming to visit you. You know, like auditory hallucinations, where maybe a lot of the times they think they're getting phone calls from the individual, and then I'll ask to see the client's phone and there's no phone calls coming in.

[Host 3]

Wow.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

And then the delusional belief then plays off of that. Well, you know, I just saw him. He just called me. He must want me to go to his house. Yeah, no, he does.

[Host 3]

Wow, that's really interesting. So that. So, yeah, so it's almost like, I mean sometimes you want to just like make fun of these people and be like, oh, that chick's, that chick's a psycho. Like, you know, we've all had a friend that's. That had that, that woman. It's usually, it's sometimes a guy, but it's usually a woman that's like, you know, and, and like you. But then I feel bad because if they're really like, they really think it's happening, that's kind of scary for them too.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

100%. They think it's happening. I feel bad for a lot of female celebrities who have had very, very severe stalking cases. And what one, it's not very recent, but it was Natalie Portman and I think the guy thought he was in the Matrix. And he like came to her house so many times, like dressed like Keanu Reeves and he had like semi automatic weapons and he took out her security. I mean she was utterly terrified. There's like her 911 calls were out there during the case and like he, he was wanting to either take her life because of some delusional belief that it would free both of them, but I mean he was, he got armed and ready. And this went on for years.

[Host 1]

Yeah, I mean we talked. Remember when we covered the Dr. Amy Harwick case? She had been in this really bad relationship years. She hadn't seen the ex boyfriend in a really long time, ran into him randomly at some convention, and then a week later he murdered her. It just, it like set his mind off and he stalked her, hid in her house, was lying in wait and it was horrible. So it is crazy how these really little encounters can just trip somebody up and cause them to just go over the deep. Ed?

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Yeah. When I was driving to my office this morning, I needed to make a right turn and I knew I wasn't gonna make a right turn and get past a car. I had to wait for the light to turn green and the car to move forward. The person behind me didn't grasp that it's like eight in the morning and she's blaring her horn, honking at me, and I'm like, I carry a gun everywhere I go. I'm like, you do this to the wrong person. And you don't know how much pain, how much misery, how much psychosis this person has. They will justify just turning around and shooting you in the fucking head. And it's. You cannot never overestimate. I'm sorry. Underestimate people's capacity to be triggered by your behavior. They put the blame on you. They're not grounded in reality. And at the end of the day, your life is threatened and your family's life is threatened. Like, we really have to tread lightly right now, especially, especially with this administration, especially with just how much divisiveness and contention there is in America and all over the world. People are carrying this around with them all the time, and they're more easily triggered. I have more work than I've ever had before.

[Host 3]

Yeah, I think. And I mean, do you think that the. That it's got. I mean, you're not really that old, so it's not. Not saying, like, I'm 42. Well, I'm saying like, you're. You're younger than me, but you're still like around my age. But I'm saying, like, you haven't been practicing that long. I should say that there's been a transition. I'd like to talk to older psychiatrists and psychologists who. Who have seen the transition before social media versus after. And then even, I mean, even when Maria was a teenager, there was Facebook, I guess. Right, Ray?

[Host 1]

I mean, I didn't really have Facebook though, until I was like a sophomore or junior in high school. It was just getting popular.

[Host 3]

It was just different until. Because Instagram was even a certain way. And it started really with like Snapchat probably, I would say, like with the videos. And then Instagram started copying all those ideas off of TikTok and Snapchat. But like the introduction of those other apps, I feel like, is when shit started getting really weird. And it's like. So you wouldn't have really. I mean, you've been practicing really since then. So it's like hard to see if there's been like a significant transition for. For older therapists. You know what I mean?

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Yeah. It would be really interesting to. To ask a bunch of them their perspective. And you know, my perspective is also biased because people can't have cell phones in prison. So a lot of my. Well, they could. That was just a problem. But they didn't have access to the outside world. And so a lot of my training was not people manipulated by media.

[Host 3]

Yeah, that is interesting.

[Host 1]

This episode is brought to you by the Gross Room guys.

[Host 3]

The Gross Room is on sale for only $20 for the whole entire year. And we don't do this often, but let me tell you what you're going to get. I just looked today. We have over 3,000 posts in the gross room that date back to 2019. So if you're not a member yet, you will have, like months to look through all of this stuff. There's thousands of pictures, videos that go along with all these posts. And this week, our high profile death dissection was on Frances Glassner Lee. Right? Do you want to talk about that one a little bit?

[Host 1]

Yeah. So Frances Glessner Lee, she is considered the mother of forensic science. She is this badass older woman that started making these crime scene dollhouses to better educate homicide detectives and death investigators on how to just really sit there and observe a scene. So in this dissection, we break down all of her dollhouses, her history, her contributions to forensics. She is truly the coolest lady of all time.

[Host 3]

Y really, like, way ahead of her time. So check all that out and more at the Grocery room.

[Host 1]

Yeah, head over to the grocery room.com to sign up.

[Narrator 1]

From iHeart podcasts. Before social media, before the Internet, before cable news, there was Alan Berg.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

You dig what I do?

[Host 1]

You have a need.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Unfortunately, you have no sense of humor. That's why you can't ever enjoy this show, and that's why you're a loser.

[Narrator 2]

He was the first and the original.

[Host 1]

Shock, that scratchy, irreverent kind of way of talking to people.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

You're as dumb as the rest. That's. I can't take anyone. I don't agree with you all the time.

[Host 1]

I don't want you to.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

I. I hope that you pick me apart.

[Narrator 1]

His voice changed media. His death shocked the nation.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

And it makes me so angry that he got himself killed because he had a big mouth. KOA morning talk show host Alan Berg reportedly was shot and killed tonight in downtown Denver.

[Narrator 2]

He pointed to the Denver phone book.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

And said, well, There are probably 2 million suspects.

[Narrator 2]

This guy aggravated everybody.

[Narrator 1]

From iheart podcasts, this is Live Wire. The loud life and shocking murder of Alan Berg. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Host 2]

Maybe you've heard that Stonewall was a riot where queer people fought back against police. Or that it's the reason pride is celebrated this time of year.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

It was one of the most liberating things that I have ever done.

[Host 2]

But did you know that before it went down in history, the Stonewall was a queer Hangout run by the mafia.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

The voguing at Stonewall was unbelievable.

[Host 2]

In the summer of 1969, it became the site that set off the modern movement for LGBTQ rights.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Started banging on the door of the Stonewall like one. Boom, boom, boo.

[Host 2]

Legend says Marsha P. Johnson, a mother in the fight for trans rights, threw the very first brick. She was really, like, scrubbed out of that history. This week on Afterlives, we'll separate the truth from the myth in the life of Marsha P. Johnson. Listen to afterlives on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Narrator 3]

How could a beautiful young first grade teacher be stabbed 20 times, including in the bat, allegedly die of suicide? Yes, that was the medical examiner's official ruling. After a closed door meeting, he first named it a homicide. Why? What happened to Ellen Greenberg? A huge American miscarriage of justice. For an in depth look at the facts, see what happened to Ellen on Amazon. All proceeds to the national center for Missing and Exploited Children.

[Narrator 4]

Jan Marsalek was a model of German corporate success.

[Narrator 1]

It seemed so damn simple for him.

[Narrator 4]

Also, it turned out, a fraudster.

[Host 2]

Where does the money come from?

[Narrator 4]

That was something that I always was questioning myself. But what if I told you that was the least interesting thing about him?

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

His secret office was less than 500 meters down the road. I often ask myself now, did I.

[Host 1]

Know the true Rian at all?

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Certain things in my life since then have gone terribly wrong.

[Host 5]

I don't know if they followed me to my home.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

It looks like the ingredients of a.

[Narrator 1]

Really grand spy story because this ties together the Cold War with the new one.

[Narrator 4]

Listen to Hot Money, Agent of chaos on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Narrator 2]

A murder happens, the case goes cold. Then, over a hundred years later, we take a second look. I'm Paul Holes, a retired cold case investigator.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

And I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a journalist and historian.

[Narrator 2]

On our podcast Buried Bones, we reexamine historical true crime cases using modern forensic techniques.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

We dig into what the original investigators may have missed. Growing up on a farm, when I heard a gunshot, I did not immediately think murder.

[Narrator 2]

Unless this person went out to shoot squirrels. They're not choosing a 22 to go hunting out there.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

These cases may be old, but the questions are still relevant and often chilling.

[Narrator 2]

I know this chauffeur is not of concern. You know, it's like, well, he's the last one who saw our life, so how did they eliminate him?

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Join us as we take you back.

[Narrator 3]

To the cold cases that haunt us to this day.

[Narrator 2]

New episodes every Wednesday on the exactly right network. Listen to Buried bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Host 3]

All right, so there was recently an article out about. This is going on just a totally different topic about mental health and social. So it's interesting because that's kind of your thing, which it. It's really interesting that they did this particular study. So they looked at a hundred from. On TikTok, the top hundred videos that had mental health tips. And they got a bunch of psychiatrists and psychologists to look at these videos and say, hey, are these accurate? Or what kind of information are people putting out? And they found that 52 of the hundred videos were actually bad and giving terrible advice. So I just. I'm just curious what you think about that. Like, my particular stance on it is that just because a video has a lot of views doesn't necessarily mean that people are taking the advice of it. It just means that someone had a catchy hook and it got shared and. And that could just be it. But also, I guess, in theory, so many people are seeing it so they could take the advice seriously.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

That's. It's terrifying. But no, I. I do get people coming into my office and just being like, I've been on TikTok for a while. I think I have ADHD. I think I'm borderline. I think I'm a psychopath. I'm like, wait, wait, wait, tell me why? What are the symptoms? And what they tell me has absolutely nothing here. I have right here, the diagnostic manual. No, you don't all have bipolar. You don't all have adhd. It is sexy to think you do. And no, you're not all autistic right now.

[Host 3]

That's. I. I swear to God, when I was reading this, I was laughing because I'm like, I just sent my husband, like, five videos that. That said that I was autistic. So are all of my children. All three of my children. And he is, too, just based upon all of the things that it was saying. And then I was just thinking, like, who. Like, everyone I know is like, this actually, like, what's the difference? I don't understand. It is. And it's always like, just a regular person putting out these videos, too. It's not someone, like, in your field, for example.

[Host 1]

I don't know. Like, I don't find it that surprising that the information is incorrect because I feel like once a week on the show we have a Story about people doing totally dumb stuff they've seen on TikTok and landing in the hospital or in severe cases, they end up dying. And it's like, why are we listening to a total stranger on the Internet that says this is a good idea?

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Yeah. What was that trend where people were like breathing in like cocoa powder or something?

[Host 3]

Oh, yeah. Taking spoonfuls of the cinnamon sugar or cocoa powder. Yeah.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Making them really sick.

[Host 3]

It's every. We have, in one of our episodes this week, we have a social media influencer who was eating cosmetics on, on. And. And she's dead. She's 24 years old and she's dead. So I'm sure the two have something to do with one another.

[Host 1]

Well, their family's saying there's no connection, but we'll talk. We talk more about that on another episode.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

You know, it's good and bad. TikTok started as a dance platform, Right. But now it's got this, the strongest algorithm I've ever seen where if you are depressed, it's just going to throw depressing videos at you in all these different layers and the nuances and it's timing when you stay on videos. I mean, the, the natural language processing, there's so much going on for each video to get to you. And so if it is interested in mental health with you, if you are looking for coping skills, if you're looking to end your life, it's going to send you things to continue watching the video, which is fucking horrifying. It eventually it does not become a healthy deep dive right in the algorithm. So you end up getting coping skills that may be popular, but they're not going to treat whatever mental health symptom you are experiencing. Then you're going to be berated with people who also have whatever mental health symptom you think you have to just concretize these views in your mind. So then you start doing things to treat things that you don't have and you're missing what you actually do have, which means that you just become more ill. It's just a horrible, a horrible mental health problem with social media.

[Host 3]

I know. And I, I don't do TikTok. I think that we have a TikTok, but.

[Host 1]

We have a TikTok, but Maria's gone.

[Host 3]

Because I just, I'm just like, I've heard, because I've been hearing these things and I'm like, I don't need another thing to give me a problem, you know, in my life and another thing to check and all that. But I'm, I do worry. I mean, my kids don't have it and I don't plan on ever letting them get social media. But I worry about young people having to do with. Exactly. You're just saying. And you hear it with, especially with, with, with girls. It's worse because of the dieting and just the unrealistic beauty expectations and the filters and all this stuff. It's so, it's really scary.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Right. It's not healthy. If you can try to keep it healthy. I mean, I tell people all the time, you know, you can restore or refresh your settings to default and start over on TikTok so that they don't keep building on negative things you're searching for. Because, you know, scientifically we sit on negative videos longer than positive videos. And so then you're going to load more and more negative videos. But if you are going to get medical advice from social media, get it from somebody who's credible, get it from somebody who has degrees and a license and is referencing their scientific based articles that they use to come up with their opinion. Right. So even if somebody has a doctorate, if they're not referencing actual science, who knows what, who knows their opinion, they may have lost their license. They may not actually be a doctor.

[Host 3]

Yeah. And that's scary because you don't really know anybody.

[Host 1]

Yeah. And it's funny because we had gotten a review a couple weeks ago basically saying we were spreading misinformation about gluten being inflammatory. But the awesome thing about your job, mom, is that you're able to cite all the scientific articles.

[Host 3]

I went right on Instagram and uploaded 10 papers saying, no, it's actually totally a thing. You know what I mean? This isn't, this isn't some quack science. I'm trying to say it's, it's a thing and it's, you know, I just, I get annoyed with the word misinformation because I think that, because there are a lot of things that people have called misinformation in the past that aren't. And that's throughout time, not just with social media, but like.

[Host 1]

Well, I think you forever. So I think you could argue like the words narcissism and psychopath in your field, people just misuse it so often that it starts taking on a whole new definition and they don't really understand what the true meaning of it is. Which I.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

What, what's been interesting for me is that when things are televised like these trials, everybody wants to diagnose the person. And you got People diagnosing the person, one, they've never met the person, so they're just basing it on what they're seeing, which is manipulated information from lawyers. And two, they don't understand diagnosing. Like you can't diagnose someone as a psychopath. That's not a diagnosis, that's a character trait. That's a personality disorder. It has components of what we would use to diagnose someone. But what's spreading around is just people trying to stay relevant and trying to understand what they're seeing. Like with Sean Combs, it is so incredibly bizarre what he's been up to. Let's just say that. And everybody wants to figure out what is wrong with him. Fine, it, say it for me. But it's, we can't, we don't know enough so we can't clearly understand it. And you know, we always have that hope. We have to be okay with also not knowing and trusting that the process will show itself.

[Host 3]

So let's talk about some of your viral videos that have gone, that you've done. Because I know that you do videos all the time, but obviously like some of them catch on and, and one of them like, so let's talk about this one first. The shopping cart one was, was a big one. What. Tell everybody about that.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

I made a 17 second video in my car where I said I wasn't going to return my shopping cart if my kids were in the car and I'd already gotten my groceries in and I told the whole world to off and not judge me. And it was purposefully, very sensational, provocative. Because what I fight for is just building awareness in people and people are so ignorant, it drives me crazy. People are so unaware of their surroundings and they don't want to think that they're going to be harmed. You know, I don't care if you live in a nice neighborhood. Like a 13 year old just used her jujitsu and took down a guy in a parking lot in Carmel by the Sea, the most quaint, beautiful town in Northern California. She broke his ankle. Like she's a badass child. Yes, I love the story, but like the naivety of people. And so I wanted to do a video where I was just like, no, you aren't choosing not being judged by fucking strangers over. You're trusting your intuition and being aware of your surrounding and surroundings and saying, you know, I'm not going to turn my cart if potentially there's a threat, if I see a threat, if I feel a threat, if I, if My kids are in the car, and I just don't want to risk that safety. It's fucking fine. I.

[Host 3]

It's so funny that you're saying this because I. So my kids now are. My little ones anyway. They're 10 and 12 years old, right? So now they're. They're capable of like, being little people. But back in the day, I mean, they're only a year and a half apart. I would bring both of them to the grocery store and I'd have like a two and a three year old or a three and a four year old, like little kids. And I recall putting them in their seat, in their car seats and being nervous about that. Not like, I mean, you deal with criminals, so your mind automatically goes to getting a criminal. But I would think, like, when I'm pushing this cart back, if somebody person comes raging down in the car and runs me over, are people gonna know that my children. Or there's children in a car that are strapped in and the doors are shut? Because I would shut and lock the doors if I was walking away at least. But then I'd be like, they're in there cooking because it's the spring or something, you know, like, that kind of stuff would always go through my head. And we really should not really care what people think of us. Like, okay, you think I'm a douchebag for not putting back the car. Okay. Who cares? You know what I mean?

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Yeah. And I, you know, cart nercs or whoever this guy is, Sebastian Davis, this guy who can't get an acting job, did like this extensive video on me, and I was like, thanks. I got so many legal cases after I.

[Host 3]

Right.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

He put my website out there. I was like, damn, my website looks good right now. Yeah, you're like my merch on it. I think he was trying to level up by using it. It didn't really do much for him because it's not about the shopping cart. There's a greater message. And when. I think another key thing here is that many men have said the same thing, they've done the same video, and they don't. They didn't get the response I got. I mean, I got death threats. The FBI's involved, they're still involved. They're following people. I had some fucking nitwit drop off a handwritten letter to my office saying, I don't want to help your algorithm, but I hate you and I hope you die.

[Host 3]

Well, that, that's just.

[Host 1]

It's weird because of a.

[Host 3]

Because you said you won't put back a shopping cart. Like, just think about that for a second.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Yeah, I mean, I, I know the hook of fuck you didn't help, but it helped me.

[Host 3]

Right. All right, so what about. So the other one you have is also one that's really good about kids. Posting pictures of your kids in, in like bathing suits and things like that.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Yeah, yeah. The shopping cart video, I want to say, had over 100 million re shares and reposts. That was insane. And then not putting your children on social media and understanding the mind of a pedophile and a predator, I think those videos are, are 30, 40 million like shares and views right now, which is kind of insane because people, people don't like to think about the mind of a pedophile. How does a pedophile think? How does he, how does he groom people? How does, where does it start? Right. It starts online. It starts by looking at, Well, I think it starts by looking at bathing suits and magazines because that's safer for a pedophile. But the stimulation needs to increase for these individuals. They want to see live videos. They want to see the kids dancing. They want to see potentially maybe a glimpse at some kind of sexualized object or something near the child. That account with Wren and Jacqueline was horrifying to me. She was purposely putting her little beautiful girl next to phallic images and posting those pictures. And then comments were fucking disgusting. Why, why do a million people need to save a video of your 4 year old sucking on a hot dog? Like, it was just horrible.

[Host 3]

I don't even know about this.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Oh my God. I think, well, I think her account was taken down after I, I went viral with a video about that and she sent me some fake cease and desist. I have like 17 lawyers. I don't know what you're doing, idiot. But so what was she do?

[Host 3]

Like, did she act like she wasn't purposely doing that or. No, she was just trying to go viral. That's disgusting.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

It's disgusting. And so you've got people purposely using phallic images. Like she would have her do the straw test where she would suck on different straws to guess the flavor of the drink. Like everything was a phallic image or it was her, you know, sitting crisscross applesauce in a skirt with her body showing. And this is a baby, this is a toddler. Horrifying. But so my videos where I'm really explaining that, you know, I've talked to pedophiles, I've worked with them, I gauge their violence. Risk. I assess them. I keep them locked up. I keep them away from all of you. I can speak to how they are looking at you as prey, how they are picking children, how they're standing outside of schoolyards hoping that somebody does something on the monkey bars. That's stimulating to them. You know, they take this masturbatory stimulation from images on the Internet that you're providing from kids they see in grocery stores everywhere. They take it home, they masturbate. What's next? The next thing is that they want a real life child. They want to do it, and then they focus on getting one.

[Host 3]

Yeah, that's. And I'm glad that these videos that you're doing are going viral, because really, I know people that do this all the time. And my. And you know what? I'm like, shout out to my mom. She's been on this from day one, which. And she isn't in any field or anything like that. She just always would be like, so. And so is posting pictures of their kids, like, in their bathing suit and in their. In their dance class and this and that. And it. It is. It is interesting that my mom would always just be like, I. I think that somebody's gonna be a pervert. And look at this. Like, you shouldn't post pictures like that. And I think this is a really.

[Host 1]

Important conversation to have because we're often talking about safety on the show with, you know, so everyone I know that's just bought a house, post the front of their house with their address, and all you have to do is screenshot it, Google, reverse it, and it's right there on Zillow. Right. So I think it's dumb. We've also recently talked about how people are live posting when they're on vacation. And it just. It's either like, you're not at home, so I could rob you, or I could follow where you are. I know exactly where you are. But as somebody that's like, you know, thinking about hopefully going into motherhood soon and everything, I do think these videos are important because I'm sitting here questioning, am I gonna upload any pictures of my children on the Internet? Because I feel it is so unsafe anymore in this environment. And everyone is refusing to accept that because it doesn't fit their perfect little Facebook page with their perfect little family photos. I think it's not smart to show kids faces anymore.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

And, you know, I hate to say it. You know, I would post my kids on my private account all the time, and I only had, like, a handful a Few hundred friends, followers, everyone I knew, everyone I had spent time with. One of the guys is in prison for looting, lascivious acts against a 12 year old. And I, he liked every single picture of my daughter I posted. I knew him, I worked with him day in and day out for years. And I didn't know like I. That horrified me. So you've got that aspect, but then you've also got, you know, hackers can see your private accounts, they can access your accounts and get images of your children. Even if your account is set to private, it's not common. But it only takes one time. Yeah, you know, it only takes one time for that to be morphed into some kind of deep fake on AI and put on Pornhub. And now you're 16 year old, now you're, I don't know, 10 year old, looks like she's in a sex tape. That's what's happening.

[Host 1]

It's really horrible. I mean we even had a story a couple months ago where they were considering making child size sex dolls for pedophiles to use and how horrific. Like in my mind that's a horrific idea because they're always going to want to escalate from that.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Exactly. And some dumb fucking politician was trying to push that forward, saying that that.

[Host 3]

Would that lady so bad.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Yes, it was like, like it's going to appease them. No, it's not. Hello. Look at Sean Combs. Nothing appeases a sex drive. It builds it, it grows it. They hone their interests, they hone their crime. Just like a serial killer. They get cleaner, they get better at it, they streamline what they want to do.

[Host 1]

Well, how do you feel about people using the term maps to try to make pedophilia sound better?

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Well, I mean, some of it, some of it I understand. Like we want to be able to say these things so that we can say it on social media and people can learn. So there's a positive side to it. Also, the people who are like super rigid about diagnosing pedophilia has very specific criteria. Right. So it has to be a pre pubescent child, there has to be a theme, it has to be six months. And so if we want to get away from the very rigid criteria of pedophilia, we do need other terms. Right. But what we need to say is a paraphilic disorder, we need to say that somebody is a predator towards the youth. Right. We, we can't make it sound nicer.

[Host 1]

Yeah, that's my problem with it. Because you know, we have somebody we know in our life that truly thinks that's a way to put it because she believes it's a sexual preference. Which extremely is bothersome to me because to me it's like, why are we sugarcoating what it is? Because when we stop addressing it like it's something that's bad, that's when it starts becoming something that's more accept and our kids get hurt more. And I just be okay with that, you know?

[Host 3]

Well, I think it could be both. Like, it is, it is this. I think that more people need to realize that it is a sexual preference. So, like the way I want to have sex with my husband, like these people feel like they want to have sex with children, right. It's kind, it's kind of like an attraction, but it's not like it's not good. It's, it's nothing that we should ever try to be like, oh, well, they're sick. It's kind, I don't know, like, I look at it like they're sick and they need to be eliminated off the planet kind of thing because I just, I can't tolerate that. But I think it could be both.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Yeah, I wouldn't say it's a, like a sexual preference though, because that implies positivity and choice. I think it's a pathologically deviant, disturbing, sadistic form of stimulation and entertainment for individuals who are sick in the head. Right. And so that's what I do a lot when I testify to juries is lawyers. Lawyers are bashful when it comes to a grown male's erect penis, went into a two year old's vagina and led to this tearing. And here's the imagery and let's talk about what, like, lawyers get bashful a lot of the time and they don't want, then they don't want the jury to hear that. But the reality is that these are sadistic fucking crimes. They are horrifying and they are brutalizing children. And the images of the children after these men have harmed them, I'll never get them out of my mind. I never want anyone to ever have to endure that, to find their child like that. To sit through a court case having to talk about this and see these images. Why not just prevent it?

[Host 1]

Exactly.

[Host 3]

Do you think that there's a way, like, so you're saying it's not a sexual preference? So is there a way that these people have, like, they're married and they have like normal kind of sex lives with. I don't want to Say normal, but they have like a normal kind of sex life with their husband, their wife, and then. Yeah, and then is that what you're saying? That they could like have that, but then they also just have this deviant behavior as well. Like it, like are they are. If they're attracted and want to do this to children, like do they have attraction towards adults too or. No. Do they enjoy having normal, like, like adult sex?

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

I think they, I think there's a beginning to it where there's a confusion. You know, I have these desires, do I act on them? Because they are illegal and horrendous. And so there is an element where it becomes a choice. They choose to act on the disordered thinking. I like to explain it like a grown man has a grown man's sex drive, but an attraction emotionally and intellectually to a child. So, you know, what is it like Talking to a 6 year old, right, or a 4 year old? They're really, they make you feel good. They're really happy, you know, that they're happy little beings and they think you're funny and you can do very little to make them giggle. Right? That's what the pedophile is misconstruing as, as this child is interested in me. And then they're overlaying that with this adult sex drive and diluting it to think like, okay, they want me to have sex with them.

[Host 3]

Do you think that there's any. Like this is your honest opinion, like, do you think that there's a way to fix these people's. That, that thought that's in their head that makes them act on that consequences?

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

I, I think keeping them away from what they want is the only thing that we can do.

[Host 3]

Because I mean, that's scary because when someone gets accused of it, obviously they don't really, a lot of them don't get that much punishment and they, they're able to do it again. So what, what's the solution? Just to put them on an island somewhere where they just can never have? I mean it, it's just.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Well, people like to make fun of California, of course, everyone does. But in California we have a welfare and institution code where sexually violent predators are held as patients. They are held, they're civilly committed and they're held in a place called Coalinga State Hospital and other places. But the, the whole thing with that is that unless they engage in treatment in a meaningful way and change is seen, they can't get out. So they don't have a prison time. There's no Clock ticking. It's a life sentence unless they, as a patient, improve and no one does. So we're not killing them all. We can't, right? In California, I think they. We figured out a pretty good way to lock them up for life.

[Host 1]

That is really interesting. I was going to make a bad joke that was like, that's how we should have transformed Pedophile island, perhaps, instead of another hotel conglomerate buying it to make a resort on. But I think that's really interesting that you guys do that in California, because I. We're always talking about how, you know, these people get convicted of these horrific rapes and they're only going to jail for four years. And we always are arguing that that's just as bad as killing somebody. You're taking their entire life emotionally, and there's only so much work a victim could do to get over that. And a lot of victims are able to move forward and everything, but it's still always there. So why aren't these people getting convicted as such?

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Right? And so, like, you know, I have a case right now of a very similar case. Will he become a sexually violent predator or not? It takes extensive psychological testing. So much collateral information. How is he in group therapy when he's in the state hospital? Is he engaging in a meaningful way? How do you gauge that? Like, there's so many different components. What's their violence? What's their sexual violence? Recidivism rate. We use all these statistics. There's so much that goes into it. But when you just lock a guy up with a sentence and then he gets out and has to register as a sex offender, I don't think it's enough.

[Host 1]

No, I agree 100%.

[Host 3]

Do they. When you talk to them, do they feel bad about this, about themselves? Do they wish they weren't like this? Or. Or do they not think that there's anything wrong with it?

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

I think I'm biased because I do work with the most severe. But I think there are individuals early on who still have that insight and that cognitive dissonance where they know it's wrong and they. They don't want to have this. This drive. And they. If they do act on it, sometimes there is a bit of remorse, but usually it is so exhilarating for them that they continue to act on it and they lack insight, they lack remorse, they lack the ability to. They don't care for the most part. But there's that small percentage. And I've seen people message me on Instagram or even TikTok just saying like, you know, I really like anime. I really like the youthful characters in anime. Does that mean I'm in danger of being a pedophile? And my response is always, go see a therapist. You know, I'm not your therapist. If you're questioning if you're going to be a pedophile, go see a therapist, get help, get support, prevent it. And it's wonderful that they are even questioning it because maybe we have a chance at intervention at that point before it becomes an all encompassed view of sexuality for them.

[Host 3]

Yeah, it's kind of cool that people feel comfortable. I mean, they, they should get a therapist, but it's cool that they feel comfortable like emailing you to question something that they feel they may not have ever thought of if you didn't bring it up.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

I know, I get so much hate, but also I'm actually quite helpful.

[Host 1]

Guys, you have an awesome sweatshirt too that says, I'm not your fucking therapist.

[Host 3]

Which is.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Yeah, that's my liability.

[Host 1]

No, that's. It's an awesome sweatshirt. It's like a beautiful black sweatshirt with this hot pink writing. It's very dainty.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

It's embroidered. I love it.

[Host 1]

No, it's so great. Well, on this dark Note, I guess, Dr. Leslie, please tell everybody where they could find you.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Oh, gosh, I'm everywhere. So, Dr. Leslie Dobson, mostly on Instagram and TikTok is kind of where I put my efforts and where I will respond to your messages and comments. My website is drlesliedobson.com if you need me as an expert, as an expert witness, you can reach out that way. And then I have a group of assistants that will respond to you. You know, I do get a lot of crazy messages, so there's a team behind me. And then the. The new podcast is intentionally disturbing with iheartradio and that's everywhere you listen to podcasts, right? I don't really even know. And on my YouTube if you want to see the people I'm talking to.

[Host 1]

Thank you so much for coming on. This was an awesome conversation. I think our listeners are really going to love it.

[Host 3]

Yeah, thank you so much.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Thanks for having me. I'm glad we. We covered quite an array of topics.

[Host 5]

Thank you for listening to Mother Knows Death. As a reminder, my training is as a pathologist assistant. I have a master's level education and specialize in anatomy and pathology education. I am not a doctor and I have not diagnosed or treated anyone dead or alive without the assistance of a licensed medical doctor. This show, my website and social media accounts are designed to educate and inform people based on my experience working in pathology so they can make healthier decisions regarding their life and well being. Always remember that science is changing every day and the opinions expressed in this episode are based on my knowledge of those subjects at the time of publication. If you are having a medical problem, have a medical question, or are having a medical emergency, please contact your physician or visit an urgent care center, emergency room or hospital. Please rate, review and subscribe to Mother Knows Death on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or anywhere you get podcasts.

[Host 3]

Thanks.

[Host 2]

Maybe you've heard that Stonewall was a riot where queer people fought back against police, or that it's the reason pride is celebrated this time of year.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

It was one of the most liberating things that I have ever done.

[Host 2]

Legend says Marsha P. Johnson threw the very first brick started banging on the.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Door of the Stonewall like one. Boom.

[Host 2]

This week on Afterlives we'll separate the truth from the myth in the life of Marsha P. Johnson. Listen to afterlives on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts from.

[Narrator 1]

Iheart Podcast before social media, before cable news, there was Alan Byrd.

[Narrator 2]

He was the first and the orig original Shock Chuck.

[Host 1]

That scratchy, irreverent kind of way of talking to people and telling them that you're an idiot and I'm going to hang up on you.

[Narrator 1]

This is Live Wire, the loud life and shocking murder of Alan Berg.

[Narrator 2]

And he pointed to the Denver phone.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

Book and said, well, there are probably 2 million suspects.

[Narrator 1]

Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Narrator 3]

How could a beautiful young first grade teacher be stabbed 20 times, including in the back, allegedly die of suicide? Yes, that was the medical examiner's official ruling. After a closed door meeting, he first named it a homicide.

[Host 3]

Why?

[Narrator 3]

What happened to Ellen Greenberg? A huge American miscarriage of justice. For an in depth look at the facts, see what happened to Ellen on Amazon. All proceeds to the national center for Missing and Exploited Children.

[Narrator 4]

Did it occur to you that he charmed you in any way? Yes, it did.

[Host 3]

But he was a charming man.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

It looks like the ingredients of a.

[Narrator 1]

Really grand spy story because this ties together the Cold War with the new one.

[Dr. Leslie Dobson]

I often ask myself now, did I know the true Yan at all?

[Narrator 4]

Listen to Hot Agent of chaos on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Host 4]

Explore the winding halls of historical true crime with Holly Fry and Maria Tremarchi, hosts of Criminalia as they uncover curious cases from the past. The legend of the Highwayman suggests men dominated the field, but tell that to Lady Catherine Ferrers. Known as the wicked lady who terrorized England in the mid-1600s. Her legend persists nearly 400 years after her death. Highwaymen are in the hot seat this season. Find more crime and cocktails on Criminalia. Listen to criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Host 1]

This is an iHeart podcast.